[Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist +46 554 201 89 + 46 70 499 38 45 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide.
How does KOH avoid saponifcation? As far as I knew both NaOH and KOH are equally capable of the saponification reaction. Andy Chemical Engineer If you want the opinion of a chemist, i think that KOH wich i use gives better product yields (you avoid saponification and problems in the cleaning) This means that in a production cycle it may be less expensive. Stelios ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
re: [Biofuel] Attn.Todd Swearingen (forgive spelling)-first time
Mark, Would a clear tube from the bottom drain looped up to the top of the drain indicate the level well enough for your purposes or are you looking to use the plexy to see where the separate layers are? Andy Hey Todd,Mark Rose here.Interested in your thoughts on my settling tank.If my milk tank,being cylindrical in shape,would not efficiently separate BD and glyc. what about a standard 200 gal home heating fuel barrel? This has a round bottom,flat sides and measures approx 2 feet wide by 5 feet long by 5 feet high.I think this should work if we pump most pure BD off the top of processor into tank. Whatever fuel is left on top of glyc can be separated after we dump glyc waste into another vessel.Does that sound feasible? Would that style tank,with appropriate drains,fittings etc. make a suitable settling vessel? We plan to remove a slice of steel from the tank and install a piece of lexan or plexy to use as a guage for drainage levels. Thanks again Todd...Mark ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] The Scent of Fear
Georges Soros is on record as wanting W out of there, and that he will do whatever is necessary to achieve that end. Luc - Original Message - From: bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 4:56 PM Subject: [Biofuel] The Scent of Fear Hi all, again, Seems as if the media is at last waking up to a few realities. Who would have believed the the geriatric New York Times would ever have run a story such as this. Bob. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/opinion/10herbert.html New York TimesJanuary 10, 2005 Op-Ed columnist The Scent of Fear By Bob Herbert The assembly line of carnage in George W. Bush's war in Iraq continues unabated. Nightmares don't last this long, so the death and destruction must be real. You know you're in serious trouble when the politicians and the military brass don't even bother suggesting that there's light at the end of the tunnel. The only thing ahead is a deep and murderous darkness. With the insurgency becoming both stronger and bolder, and the chances of conducting a legitimate election growing grimmer by the day, a genuine sense of alarm can actually be detected in the reality-resistant hierarchy of the Bush administration. The unthinkable is getting a tentative purchase in the minds of the staunchest supporters of the war: that under the current circumstances, and given existing troop strengths, the U.S. and its Iraqi allies may not be able to prevail. Military officials are routinely talking about a major U.S. presence in Iraq that will last, at a minimum, into the next decade. That is not what most Americans believed when the Bush crowd so enthusiastically sold this war as a noble adventure that would be short and sweet, and would end with Iraqis tossing garlands of flowers at American troops. The reality, of course, is that this war is like all wars - fearsomely brutal and tragic. The administration was jolted into the realization of just how badly the war was going by the brazen suicide bombing just a few days before Christmas inside a mess tent of a large and supposedly heavily fortified military base in Mosul. Fourteen American soldiers and four American contractors were among the dead. Seven American soldiers were killed last Thursday when their Bradley armored personnel carrier hit a roadside bomb in northwestern Baghdad. Two U.S. marines were killed the same day in Anbar. Brig. Gen. David Rodriguez told reporters at the Pentagon on Friday of an ominous new development in Iraq. We've noticed in the recent couple of weeks, he said, that the I.E.D.'s [improvised explosive devices] are all being built more powerfully, with more explosive effort in a smaller number of I.E.D.'s. Mr. Bush's so-called pre-emptive war, which has already cost so many lives, is being enveloped by the foul and unmistakable odor of failure. That's why the Pentagon is dispatching a retired four-star general, Gary Luck, to Iraq to assess the entire wretched operation. The hope in Washington is that he will pull a rabbit out of a hat. His mission is to review the military's entire Iraq policy, and do it quickly. I hope, as he is touring the regions in which the U.S. is still using conventional tactics against a guerrilla foe, that he keeps in mind how difficult it is to defeat local insurgencies, and other indigenous forces, as exemplified by such widely varying historical examples as the French experiences in Indochina and Algeria, the American experience in Vietnam, the Israeli experience in Lebanon, and so on. But even the fortuitously named General Luck will be helpless to straighten anything out in time for the Iraqi elections. The commander of American ground forces in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Thomas Metz, made it clear last week that significant areas of four major provinces, which together contain nearly half the population of the entire country, are not safe enough for people to vote. Today I would not be in much shape to hold elections in those provinces, said General Metz. With the war draining the military of the troops needed for commitments worldwide, the Pentagon is being forced to take extraordinary steps to maintain adequate troop strength. A temporary increase of 30,000 soldiers for the Army, already approved by Congress, will most likely be made permanent. The Pentagon is also considering plans to further change the rules about mobilizing members of the National Guard and Reserve. Right now they cannot be called up for more than 24 months of active service. That limit would be scrapped, which would permit the Army to call them up as frequently as required. That's not a back-door draft. It's a brutal, in-your-face draft that's unfairly limited to a small segment of the population. It would make a mockery of the idea of an all-volunteer Army. Something's got to give. The nation's locked in a war that's going badly. The military is strained to the breaking point. And it's looking more and more like
Re: [Biofuel] Attn.Todd Swearingen (forgive spelling)-first timebatch-settling tank
You're more or less on the money as to how to achieve reasonable division of different fluids. My concern, for you, myself and anyone else in such a position is the exposure to methanol fumes by methods that don't incorporate sealed systems. Huffing methanol unintentionally can only come back to haunt you. Keep the idea of a vent line on every tank that contains any fraction of methanol at the top of your assembly list. These lines run into a methanol vapor manifold that is run into a condensor for recovery (or vented outside of the building until such time as you can install an evap/condensor unit.). Two-hundred gallon fuel oil tanks are a dime-a-dozen, which makes them attractive. And they do match the volume of your reactor. Check 'em for holes first. They're generally discarded for a reason. Pinholes often don't appear until they're cleaned. Not cleaning them poses a problem, as most have boatloads of rust, paraffin and gundge collected on their sides after years of use. You've probably noticed that you can't gain access to the inside of this type of fuel oil tank well enough to install a bulkhead fitting, which would mean welding a second outlet above the factory outlet if you went with a two-line draw-off. You could cut a hole in the top and install bolt-on poly window as you mentioned. But you wouldn't be able to see through the volume of fuel to the glyc/fuel interphase level in order to determine when to rechannel fluid flow. Putting a window in the side makes you leak prone. Doable, but. Take note that any settling tank other than an external dished or conical bottom is going to need to be inclined in order to achieve a faux conical bottom effect, no matter what type of draw-off you go with. You could just go with the single outlet that is already on the tank, throttled down to 1/2 or 3/8 with but one reducer bushing. (These tanks usually have 3/4 or 1 outlets from the factory.) The very second fuel starts to come out with the glyc you'd want to stop the flow and let the tank set for an hour or more. This lets the glyc that hasn't rolled downhill yet from the upper part of the bottom of the tank (tank is inclined) to migrate to the outlet. You could easily get another gallon of glyc that way, enough to screw up or play havoc with a wash. And depending, you might have to do that step twice to prevent any more glyc than necessary from entering your wash stream. If the tank is elevated high enough you could use gravity instead of pumps for fluid transfer from the settling tank to a holding tank for evap/distillation or to a wash tank. In that vein, you could use another dime-a-dozen fuel oil tank for the evap holding tank If you used a similar tank for washing, you'd be washing your fuel in two batches rather than one. Also keep in mind that you're going to run into similar two-tank needs in the wash process and other stages, such as FFA recovery from the glyc cocktail and/or processing with modified acid/base. One tank of each set will always be an ag tank, where the majority of volume will be one fluid combined with a few inches of volume of a second fluid. The other tank would never be contaminated with a second fluid. A third tank can be incorporated, with it never being contaminated with a second fluid either. Some stages won't require tanks any larger than a 55 gallon poly drum. Think your plumbing/tanks/drums out in advance, with full knowledge that you're probably going to be reconfiguring a few times as you become more and more knowledgeable as to the need of processing and how to process co-products. You might care to look at the following flow diagram to get an idea of what directions different fluids will take. The wash system is overkill for most homebrew setups, designed for water recycling and allowing the contents of all wash tanks to be transferred simultaneously. That can cut pump time by literally hours per batch. The same water recycling can be conducted with half the number of tanks, but the pump time would be quadrupled. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor9.html Hopefully all this sheds some light on the matter(s). Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: mark rose [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 10:24 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Attn.Todd Swearingen (forgive spelling)-first timebatch-settling tank Hey Todd,Mark Rose here.Interested in your thoughts on my settling tank.If my milk tank,being cylindrical in shape,would not efficiently separate BD and glyc. what about a standard 200 gal home heating fuel barrel? This has a round bottom,flat sides and measures approx 2 feet wide by 5 feet long by 5 feet high.I think this should work if we pump most pure BD off the top of processor into tank. Whatever fuel is left on top of glyc can be separated after we dump glyc waste into another vessel.Does that sound feasible? Would that style
Re: [Biofuel] Collapse was The Scent of Fear
once again, way off subject... cmon guys, there's other places for this isn't there? My apologies to the group for not snipping but to make the point... Please go back and read the message the administrative group sent to you when you first signed up for biofuels. You are not the arbiter of what is and isn't on topic. If you don't approve or appreciate the topic of a particular post, feel free to hit the delete button on your browser. That's what I do. It's an excellent habit to establish. Thank you for your cooperation in this matter. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Collapse
snip In particular, the part about the decline of phytoplankton. Apparently over the last 20 years, the amount of phytoplankton in the world oceans have declined by 6%. If we cut the food chain from the bottom, what will happen to those of us at or near the top? snip Derrick said something to the effect of 'if the phytoplankton decline its all over' at a lecture I attended a year ago. I wanted to know what the heck that meant, so I followed his sources back. Yikes! Apparently the phytoplankton uptake CO2 in the atmosphere. They also release oxygen, an element essential to creatures at or near the top of the food chain. As the temperature warms, phytoplankton die. As phytoplankton die, less CO2 is trapped in the ocean. As less CO2 is trapped in the ocean, the higher atmospheric temperature rises. And the cycle starts again. You get the idea. We don't really know if this will result in an uncontrolled feedback loop, or if there is a natural counterbalance to this problem. In essence, we're conducting a BIG experiment with the only atmosphere and ocean we have. We're pretty clever, but sometimes I think we're not very wise. Another sobering source material point is that 90% of large fish in the ocean (defined as those larger than an American Football) are gone. NINETY PERCENT!!! I checked his sources and talked with the good Sea Shepherds (pirates for the sea creature--arg, matey!) and found out he was right. Again very sobering revelations. I listened to the Jared Diamond interview on NPR's Morning Edition a few days ago. Here's the URL if any of you are interested: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4276179 So much of this topic relates to the excesses of our society, the demand for resources and the utter denial of responsibility common among political leaders and captains of industry. That attitude, however, starts with each one of us. We need to change, and that change starts by recognizing the problems we face, then working together toward better stewardship of the world God has given us. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Efficiency and expanded possibilities.
I'm sure there is a catalytic process to do this. One thing I know of is that methane can be conveted to syngas, which can then be converted to methanol through the critical process, or through a zinc-slurry process: snip The meth sold in my country is made exclusively by a catalytic conversion of natural gas. I really don't know why bother to make fuel methanol, if you can have excellent CNG cars, range and all included. Look up the new Merc C-class CNG car, or the Fiat Multipla Bifuel. And if you drive on both fuels, the range almost doubles in comparison to a single fuel car. Then you move on to partially cleaned biogas and compress it for use in the same equipment. Although, here at work we have a big powerplant (3.3 megawatt) on biogas containing roughly 48% methane, the rest CO2 and other gasses (it's land- fill gas), we use it in our GEJenbacher gensets unpurified, just filtered. Works fine, although silicon deposits are a major pain for the moment. We just opened one genset (1 megawatt, V20 spark ignition engine), and cleaned the combustion chambers, it's done with a special soak and rinse. But it took the genny 15.000 hours to build up deposits thick enough to cause problems. It has be cleaned, mind you, because the compression has changed and the engine does not fire propperly anymore. And also the LeaNOx firing electronics goes bezerk. Cheers, Aleks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide.
than NaOH+MeOH. I will try to write a chemical explanation for this in my thesis. From an first look is seems that the K-O bond is more polar and dissociates esterified glycerides more easily... Some other authors have made the same conclusion (for those interesting i can send them the whole article): Kinetic Parameters Affecting the Alkali-Catalyzed Transesterification Process of Used Olive Oil M. Pilar Dorado,*,? Evaristo Ballesteros,? Martin Mittelbach,¤ and Francisco J. Lo«pez| Departments of Mechanics and Mining and of Physical and Analytical Chemistry, EUP de Linares, University of Jae«n, C/. Alfonso X el Sabio 28, 23700 Linares, Jae«n, Spain, Institute of Chemistry, Karl-Franzens-Universita¬ t Graz, Heinrichstrasse 28, A-8010 Graz, Austria, and Department of Agricultural Engineering, ETSIAM, University of Co«rdoba, Avenida Mene«ndez Pidal s/n, 14080 Co«rdoba, Spain Received November 21, 2003. Revised Manuscript Received June 9, 2004 In this study, chemical parameters involved in waste olive oil transesterification were investigated and optimized. Better results were obtained using KOH and methanol instead of NaOH and ethanol, which decreases transesterification rates. The presence of KOH and methanol above or below the optimum quantity decreases the ester yield because of the presence of soaps or unreacted glycerides, respectively. Settling at ambient temperature under 25 ¡C increases the difficulty of ester and glycerol separation because of a conflict between glycerol solubility and low temperatures. This could be solved by increasing the settling temperature or the time for settling. In summary, the reaction was optimized at ambient temperature using 1.26% KOH, 12% methanol, 1 min of stirring, with 90 min of pour-off time, 11.38% distilled water by volume at 25 ¡C to purify the ester, and drying over 0.5% Na2SO4. Losses of esters during the washing process were less than 4%. The ester yield of the reaction was 94%. The small presence of unreacted glycerides did not drop the engine performance. Fuel specifications were close to those of diesel fuel, thus indicating that methyl esters from used olive oil can be considered as a fuel candidate. - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide. How does KOH avoid saponifcation? As far as I knew both NaOH and KOH are equally capable of the saponification reaction. Andy Chemical Engineer If you want the opinion of a chemist, i think that KOH wich i use gives better product yields (you avoid saponification and problems in the cleaning) This means that in a production cycle it may be less expensive. Stelios ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide.
I would like to get a copy of those article. Can you explain what you mean by the K-O bond being more polar? I didn't think that there were any K-O bonds left once the KOH is dissolved (reacted) with the methanol creating methoxide since that acid-bace reaction is quite complete. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:27:13 +0200, Stelios Terzakis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My experience about KOH+MeOH is that the path of saponification is weaker than NaOH+MeOH. I will try to write a chemical explanation for this in my thesis. From an first look is seems that the K-O bond is more polar and dissociates esterified glycerides more easily... Some other authors have made the same conclusion (for those interesting i can send them the whole article): Kinetic Parameters Affecting the Alkali-Catalyzed Transesterification Process of Used Olive Oil M. Pilar Dorado,*,? Evaristo Ballesteros,? Martin Mittelbach,¤ and Francisco J. Lo«pez| Departments of Mechanics and Mining and of Physical and Analytical Chemistry, EUP de Linares, University of Jae«n, C/. Alfonso X el Sabio 28, 23700 Linares, Jae«n, Spain, Institute of Chemistry, Karl-Franzens-Universita¬ t Graz, Heinrichstrasse 28, A-8010 Graz, Austria, and Department of Agricultural Engineering, ETSIAM, University of Co«rdoba, Avenida Mene«ndez Pidal s/n, 14080 Co«rdoba, Spain Received November 21, 2003. Revised Manuscript Received June 9, 2004 In this study, chemical parameters involved in waste olive oil transesterification were investigated and optimized. Better results were obtained using KOH and methanol instead of NaOH and ethanol, which decreases transesterification rates. The presence of KOH and methanol above or below the optimum quantity decreases the ester yield because of the presence of soaps or unreacted glycerides, respectively. Settling at ambient temperature under 25 ¡C increases the difficulty of ester and glycerol separation because of a conflict between glycerol solubility and low temperatures. This could be solved by increasing the settling temperature or the time for settling. In summary, the reaction was optimized at ambient temperature using 1.26% KOH, 12% methanol, 1 min of stirring, with 90 min of pour-off time, 11.38% distilled water by volume at 25 ¡C to purify the ester, and drying over 0.5% Na2SO4. Losses of esters during the washing process were less than 4%. The ester yield of the reaction was 94%. The small presence of unreacted glycerides did not drop the engine performance. Fuel specifications were close to those of diesel fuel, thus indicating that methyl esters from used olive oil can be considered as a fuel candidate. - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide. How does KOH avoid saponifcation? As far as I knew both NaOH and KOH are equally capable of the saponification reaction. Andy Chemical Engineer If you want the opinion of a chemist, i think that KOH wich i use gives better product yields (you avoid saponification and problems in the cleaning) This means that in a production cycle it may be less expensive. Stelios ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide.
INORGANIC Both KOH and NaOH are strong bases, meaning they ionize completely in water to metal cations and hydroxide anions. Hence the K-OH or Na-OH bond is ionic. In a sense you may say that one is more polar on the basis of the fact that Potassium is more electropositive than Sodium (K is below Na in the periodic chart) . This means that the difference in the Pauling electongativities of Potassium and Oxygen is greater than for the Sodium oxygen pair./INORGANIC All that having been said, I don't think that there is any difference in degrees of saponification EXCEPT for the fact that commercial NaOH contains about 15 per cent water, where as KOH can be had with less than 8 per cent water. Without that excess water in the system there will be little saponification. That is why you need to be sure and remove as much water as possible from WVO before doing the transesterifcation with alcohol. Andrew Cunningham wrote: I would like to get a copy of those article. Can you explain what you mean by the K-O bond being more polar? I didn't think that there were any K-O bonds left once the KOH is dissolved (reacted) with the methanol creating methoxide since that acid-bace reaction is quite complete. Andy -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Free to good home: Methanol
I still have a virtually untapped drum of methanol in Indiana, and will be moving to California in less than two weeks. I'm not going to want to try transporting it across country, and I do want to see it go to someone who will use it. If anyone wants it, let me know. I'm in central Indiana, about 35 miles north of Indianapolis. Brian ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Biox process conducted under extremely high temperatures and pressures? That wouldn't fall under the heading of shadetree manufacturing. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel]Re: GEJenbacher Methane, Topic Was: Efficiency and expanded possibilities.
Aleks, GE did indeed purchase Jenbacher several years ago because of the high quality engineered units and ability to utlize methane as a fuel. In the Central Valley of California, the dairy industry is looking at different solutions to recover and ameliorate the methane gas generated also in cow/swine/poultry waste: The AgStar Program talks about methane recovery in dairy, poultry, swine, and other ag-related. I worked with this program during my career in energy conservation and renewables: http://www.epa.gov/agstar/ The program encourages the use of methane recovery (biogas) technologies at the confined animal feeding operations that manage manure as liquids or slurries. These technologies reduce methane emissions while achieving other environmental benefits... --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm sure there is a catalytic process to do this. One thing I know of is that methane can be conveted to syngas, which can then be converted to methanol through the critical process, or through a zinc-slurry process: snip The meth sold in my country is made exclusively by a catalytic conversion of natural gas. I really don't know why bother to make fuel methanol, if you can have excellent CNG cars, range and all included. Look up the new Merc C-class CNG car, or the Fiat Multipla Bifuel. And if you drive on both fuels, the range almost doubles in comparison to a single fuel car. Then you move on to partially cleaned biogas and compress it for use in the same equipment. Although, here at work we have a big powerplant (3.3 megawatt) on biogas containing roughly 48% methane, the rest CO2 and other gasses (it's land- fill gas), we use it in our GEJenbacher gensets unpurified, just filtered. Works fine, although silicon deposits are a major pain for the moment. We just opened one genset (1 megawatt, V20 spark ignition engine), and cleaned the combustion chambers, it's done with a special soak and rinse. But it took the genny 15.000 hours to build up deposits thick enough to cause problems. It has be cleaned, mind you, because the compression has changed and the engine does not fire propperly anymore. And also the LeaNOx firing electronics goes bezerk. Cheers, Aleks ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide.
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for my mistake there is not indeed any K-Oor Na-O bond, but the organic mechanism of saponification could suggest an interaction of K+ or Na+ with the charged oxygen in the intermediate (thus stabilisation of the intermediate). It is not so easy to say if it hasn't an effect...Anyway KOH works better for me now. It depends also on what oil you use, costs and on many other things. Step 1: The hydroxide nucleophiles attacks at the electrophilic C of the ester C=O, breaking the p bond and creating the tetrahedral intermediate. Step 2: The intermediate collapses, reforming the C=O results in the loss of the leaving group the alkoxide, RO-, leading to the carboxylic acid. Step 3: An acid / base reaction. A very rapid equilibrium where the alkoxide, RO- functions as a base deprotonating the carboxylic acid, RCO2H, (an acidic work up would allow the carboxylic acid to be obtained from the reaction). - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide. Let me take a shot at this, even though inorganic chemistry is not my forte. INORGANIC Both KOH and NaOH are strong bases, meaning they ionize completely in water to metal cations and hydroxide anions. Hence the K-OH or Na-OH bond is ionic. In a sense you may say that one is more polar on the basis of the fact that Potassium is more electropositive than Sodium (K is below Na in the periodic chart) . This means that the difference in the Pauling electongativities of Potassium and Oxygen is greater than for the Sodium oxygen pair./INORGANIC All that having been said, I don't think that there is any difference in degrees of saponification EXCEPT for the fact that commercial NaOH contains about 15 per cent water, where as KOH can be had with less than 8 per cent water. Without that excess water in the system there will be little saponification. That is why you need to be sure and remove as much water as possible from WVO before doing the transesterifcation with alcohol. Andrew Cunningham wrote: I would like to get a copy of those article. Can you explain what you mean by the K-O bond being more polar? I didn't think that there were any K-O bonds left once the KOH is dissolved (reacted) with the methanol creating methoxide since that acid-bace reaction is quite complete. Andy -- -- Bob /ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Todd, According to the website it is at atmospheric and a little above ambiant temp. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:32:23 -0500, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew, Correct me if I'm wrong. But isn't the Biox process conducted under extremely high temperatures and pressures? That wouldn't fall under the heading of shadetree manufacturing. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] pKa, was: Iso-propanol
Dear Bob (Professor Allen!): I read with great joy your explain on the chemistry and equilibrium equations behind the reasons for methanol. Reminds me of my chemistry classes back in the days: from the Net: ...The pKa is a measure of the tendency of a molecule or ion to keep a proton, H+, at its ionization center(s). It is related to the ionization capabilities of chemical species. The more easily ionization occurs, the more likely a species will be taken up into aqueous solution, because water is a very polar solvent (its dielectric constant, 20 = 80). If a molecule does not readily ionize, then it will tend to stay in a non-polar solvent... If I recall, pKa is also important factor on how things are taken up in our lipids and fatty tissues. Thanks Professor Allen! --- bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Biofuel] Biodiesel analysis
I gave up chemistry long time ago but i believe you are very very right. I think that some more advanced chemical consepts must be in the JTF site for those interesting. I can contribute more in analytical chemistry instrumentation setup. Stelios - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob /ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Bob, Good thing that isn't the route I will be taking with the IPA. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:34:42 -0800, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I am trying to get copies of the articles from the 90's when this technique was discussed a lot more. Do you have any of the articles on using cosolvents? Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Keith, Is :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) in reference to base catalyzed reactions or something else? Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide.
Stelios, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I am not saying it wrong, just that I don't follow it. Bob Allen's comment on the water content would definitely cause an apparent difference between the two. I mainly doubt that the positive ion would have an effect on the saponifaction because as far I knew it is the hydroxide ion that initiates saponification and the metal just hung around to balance the charge. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:24:57 +0200, Stelios Terzakis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry for my mistake there is not indeed any K-Oor Na-O bond, but the organic mechanism of saponification could suggest an interaction of K+ or Na+ with the charged oxygen in the intermediate (thus stabilisation of the intermediate). It is not so easy to say if it hasn't an effect...Anyway KOH works better for me now. It depends also on what oil you use, costs and on many other things. Step 1: The hydroxide nucleophiles attacks at the electrophilic C of the ester C=O, breaking the p bond and creating the tetrahedral intermediate. Step 2: The intermediate collapses, reforming the C=O results in the loss of the leaving group the alkoxide, RO-, leading to the carboxylic acid. Step 3: An acid / base reaction. A very rapid equilibrium where the alkoxide, RO- functions as a base deprotonating the carboxylic acid, RCO2H, (an acidic work up would allow the carboxylic acid to be obtained from the reaction). - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Kaliumhydroxide. Let me take a shot at this, even though inorganic chemistry is not my forte. INORGANIC Both KOH and NaOH are strong bases, meaning they ionize completely in water to metal cations and hydroxide anions. Hence the K-OH or Na-OH bond is ionic. In a sense you may say that one is more polar on the basis of the fact that Potassium is more electropositive than Sodium (K is below Na in the periodic chart) . This means that the difference in the Pauling electongativities of Potassium and Oxygen is greater than for the Sodium oxygen pair./INORGANIC All that having been said, I don't think that there is any difference in degrees of saponification EXCEPT for the fact that commercial NaOH contains about 15 per cent water, where as KOH can be had with less than 8 per cent water. Without that excess water in the system there will be little saponification. That is why you need to be sure and remove as much water as possible from WVO before doing the transesterifcation with alcohol. Andrew Cunningham wrote: I would like to get a copy of those article. Can you explain what you mean by the K-O bond being more polar? I didn't think that there were any K-O bonds left once the KOH is dissolved (reacted) with the methanol creating methoxide since that acid-bace reaction is quite complete. Andy -- -- Bob /ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I don't think Ken or I were talking about the Biox reaction. Ken cut your para on Biox and doubts using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed reaction will work, I agreed and posted a link to information on using isopropanol with enzymes. That seems perfectly clear. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I am trying to get copies of the articles from the 90's when this technique was discussed a lot more. Do you have any of the articles on using cosolvents? This was covered in my other post to you, see next response. Keith Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Is :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) in reference to base catalyzed reactions or something else? I'm sorry Andy, I don't see how it could refer to anything other than the Biox reaction, it's not ambiguous. If you'd checked the links I gave you you'd have found not only further confirmation of that but a lot more information, including some you just said you've been looking for. So why don't you just do that? Here they are again: See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. It's a blind alley anyway, unless you really are doing advanced stuff (more advanced than Biox). Have you made any biodiesel yet, single-stage base test batches for instance? Keith Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
one phase without any separation. Andrew Cunningham wrote: Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:34:42 -0800, Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Biox process way Iso-propanol
The BIOX process, a new biodiesel process developed by the University of Toronto, has successfully demonstrated, in a laboratory setting, that biodiesel fuel (produced from recycled vegetable oils, agricultural seed oils or waste animal fats and greases) may soon become a viable, cost-competitive alternative to petroleum diesel. Professor David Boocock of the University of Toronto, and developer of the BIOX Process, has examined the process of base-catalyzed transesterification (specifically transmethylation) of vegetable oils to produce biodiesel methyl esters. The kinetic data for this reaction has been previously misinterpreted. At the University of Toronto he has shown that the methanolysis is slow because the initial reaction mixture consists of two phases, and the reaction is, therefore, mass transfer limited. The problem has been solved by the selection of inert co-solvents that generate an oil-rich one-phase system. This reaction is 95% complete in ten minutes at ambient temperatures, whereas previous processes required hours. Continuous processes are now feasible. The acid catalyzed process, which is required when the substrate contains fatty acids, is complete in minutes rather than the usual several hours. Andrew Cunningham wrote: Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I am trying to get copies of the articles from the 90's when this technique was discussed a lot more. Do you have any of the articles on using cosolvents? Andy On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 02:07:51 +0900, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/14/05 6:05 AM, Andrew Cunningham at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. Are you talking about using isopropanol in a base-catalyzed transesterification? From what I know about the behavior of ethanol compared to methanol, I'd be surprised if it worked at all. I think VERY little isopropoxide would be produced, and possibly KOH wouldn't even be soluble (this would be easy to check, of course, I'm just being an armchair commentator here :-)). Even if you could get the alkoxide to form, I bet the glycerol would be too soluble to ever drop out. Have you ever actually made biodiesel this way in small quantities? -K I agree with you Ken, I don't think it works. Several people who know what they're at have told me they'd tried it without any success. AFAIK it's an enzyme-catalysed process - ie, it's lab stuff, not (yet) for the real world. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/28089/ Date: 2003-09-11 From: Keith Addison Subject: Re: R: [biofuel] Butanol v Methanol (Foglia's patent on branched alkyl esters) Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Biox process way Iso-propanol
different real story in the list archives links I gave Andy. Not just what a few backyarders think but what some major industry figures in the US and Europe think too. Biox and Boocock, naah. http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Best wishes Keith http://www.esemag.com/0501/diesel.html The BIOX process, a new biodiesel process developed by the University of Toronto, has successfully demonstrated, in a laboratory setting, that biodiesel fuel (produced from recycled vegetable oils, agricultural seed oils or waste animal fats and greases) may soon become a viable, cost-competitive alternative to petroleum diesel. Professor David Boocock of the University of Toronto, and developer of the BIOX Process, has examined the process of base-catalyzed transesterification (specifically transmethylation) of vegetable oils to produce biodiesel methyl esters. The kinetic data for this reaction has been previously misinterpreted. At the University of Toronto he has shown that the methanolysis is slow because the initial reaction mixture consists of two phases, and the reaction is, therefore, mass transfer limited. The problem has been solved by the selection of inert co-solvents that generate an oil-rich one-phase system. This reaction is 95% complete in ten minutes at ambient temperatures, whereas previous processes required hours. Continuous processes are now feasible. The acid catalyzed process, which is required when the substrate contains fatty acids, is complete in minutes rather than the usual several hours. Andrew Cunningham wrote: Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I snip ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Hydrogen Car Discussion on NPR Science Friday Today NOW
Join Ira and guests in this hour of Science Friday for a look at environmentally friendly cars. Will a hydrogen concept car unveiled this week ever hit the showroom? Plus, the latest on the Huygens space probe, headed toward Saturn's moon Titan... http://www.sciencefriday.com/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
Andrew Cunningham wrote: Bob, Good thing that isn't the route I will be taking with the IPA. Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0600, bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hello Kieth, Andy, et al, Why base catalyzed transesterifcation works well with Methanol but not so well with most other alcohol. (another little chemistry lesson). Among common alkyl alcohols such as Methanol (MeOH) Ethanol (EtOH), isopropanol (iPrOH) and higher homologs, only MeOH has a pKa lower than water. MeOH 15.5 HOH 15.7 EtOH 16.0 iPrOH 16.7 What this means is that when you mix NaOH or KOH with Methanol, equilibrium favors formation of the Methoxide ion -OMe : MeOH + KOH -- K+ + - OMe +HOH but for the others the Hydroxide ion is favored: iPrOH + KOH --- K+ + -OiPR + HOH Only when the right side of the equation is favored, is a significant concentration of the alcoxide present. It is the alcoxide which accomplishes transesterifcation. When the left side is favored, significant hydroxide is present. Hydroxide causes significant saponification.The left side of the equation is favored for all alcohols whose pKa is higher than water. There are tricks to shift the equilibrium (Le Chatelier's Principle) but it gets more difficult, expensive or both. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Andy I am helping a friend setup a reactor and he has 4 55 gallon drums of IPA. He has little time so it is slow going, but I will let you know how it goes. Since the it has the higher boiling point we will run at a higher temperatures. I am interested in trying the BIOX reaction as well but want to make sure that the reactor is air tight first. :-) I'd suggest you check on whether the process is watertight before you start bothering about the reactor. (It ain't!) Rather thoroughly discussed here previously, a few times. I think calling it the BIOX reaction might be somethinbg of a misnomer, for one thing. See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/35434/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/35449/ Check the links in those posts. Best wishes Keith Andy On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:12:26 -0300, Andres Yver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday, January 13, 2005, at 05:50 AM, Jan Warnqvist wrote: Hello there ! Is there anyone who has experience in isopropyl alcohol or its esters as fuel components ? Jan Warnqvist Here's a pdf out of Iowa State University: www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/Wang%20Intro.pdf The production of isopropyl esters and their effects on a diesel engine The scope of this research was to improve the cold weather properties of neat biodiesel by investigating the manufacture of isopropyl esters from soybean oil and yellow grease. Isopropyl esters have a lower crystallization temperature compared to methyl esters from the same source material. www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Technical%20Papers/ Wang%20Equip%20Analysis%20Results.pdf Optimizing the Transesterification Process for Isopropyl Esters Producing isopropyl esters requires the use of isopropyl alcohol as opposed to methyl esters, which utilize methanol, or ethyl esters, which use ethanol. Commonly, most biodiesel consists of methyl esters and methanol is used since it is cheap and widely available. Methanol is priced between $.04-.24/lb [14] and is the fourth largest organic chemical in the U.S. in terms of volume. Isopropanol, on the other hand, is priced between $.20 - .34/lb [14], which makes it more expensive to make isopropyl esters. However, the yield for isopropyl esters is about 10% more than methyl esters because of the heavier molecular weight. So, this partially compensates for the increased cost. hth, andres yver ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
On Jan 14, 2005, at 10:34 AM, Andrew Cunningham wrote: Ken, That sounds about right with the base. I haven't given any consideration of the separation. Are you saying that the glycerol would stay in the IPesters or the the excess IPA? Andy They all stay together in one phase. Once the glycerol starts to drop out (if ever), it takes most of the IPA with it. The remaining IPA in the ester phase can be washed out after. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Iso-propanol
On Jan 14, 2005, at 10:40 AM, Andrew Cunningham wrote: Keith, I haven't found anything to expect an enzyme in the Biox reaction. I think it is simply using MTBE or similar to create a single phase so the reaction takes place faster. I believe they use tetrahydrofuran, and if you want a single phase, you'll get it even WITHOUT the THF :-)-K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
