Re: [Biofuel] A nice experience

[Pieter Koole]

Thanks for your answer.
What other problems can it cause, exept for a bad start on cold mornings ?
I used 40 liters of phosphoric acid on 1000 liters of glop.
Of course first I made some mini batches to find out wether it would work
and figured out that I needed about 40 liters of 75% of acid.

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands
- Original Message -
From: "Kenneth Kron (CEO)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A nice experience


> That's right Pieter, the phosphoric acid cracked the soap back into
> FFA's.  In small quantities it wont hurt anything in large quantities it
> will hurt something.  In the netherlands your primary problem is
> probably that FFA's will drive up you jell point on you wont be able to
> start your car on a cold morning.
>
> If you knew how much phosphoric you used you could guess *at the FFA
> content of your fuel *of FFA's your running on.  If you acid treated the
> glycerin and knew how much FFA's you got out of that you'd have another
> guess the FFA content of your fuel.
>
> kk
>
> Pieter Koole wrote:
>
> >Some time ago I wrote about my mistake, to not boil off the water out of
> >wvo, so I finished up with a lump of soap, glop or whatever we can call
it.
> >Alltogether it was 1000 liters. Now I decided to try to break the soap
with
> >phosphoric acit (75%) and let it sit for several weeks. The soap was
cracked
> >and I was lucky to siphon from the top just over 700 liters of BD. I have
> >been driving on it, without any problems.
> >Maybe someone out there can do something with this information.
> >I have been thinking that I might be driving on FFA's at the moment in
stead
> >of BD, but it works.
> >
> >Met vriendelijke groet,
> >Pieter Koole
> >Netherlands.
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Kenneth Kron
> President Bay Area Biofuel
> http://www.bayareabiofuel.com/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Phone: 415-867-8067
> What you can do, or dream you can do, begin it!
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Re: [Biofuel] A nice experience

[Pieter Koole]

I don't know much about viscosity. How can I measure it ? What should be the
viscosity of BD ?

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands
- Original Message -
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] A nice experience


> on 5/7/05 9:00 AM, Pedro Ordonez at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
>
> > This is a question I've had for a while now. If the purpose of making
> > Biodiesel is to lower the viscosity of the oil, what would happen if we
used
> > just free fatty acids? Why won't that work?
> >
> >
>
>
> Have you checked the viscosity of FFA (take oleic acid as an example)?
> The stuff I've made felt like about 28 centistokes :-) Thinner than oil
> to be sure, but not thin enough.
>
> -K
>
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Re: [Biofuel] palm oil,Brasil and fexivel biofuel.

[Pannir P.V]

In Brasil , BioD is  made from  fatty acids and ethanol   in a very 
large scale  using  catalyst made  here , a byproduct the  fatty 
acids  from the   palm oil refinig process very sucessfully  and  thus
 the  food and  fuel from palm oil sucessfully.

Most  of the car manfactured in Brasil , FIAT, VW, Renau , Fordc
are all makinf  fexible  biocombustivel  the ethanol, gasoline  and  
also the natural gas, thus really  towards renawable fuel.This can
make possible the biogas  replacing the natural gas.

 May be soon  Brasil exports  catalysts for BioD  process.

sd
Pannirselvam

 

On 5/7/05, heernica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> hi, if anyone knows of a running plant using palm oil to make biodiesel I 
> would be very interested in its process.
> thanks,
> Hen.
> 
> Enjoy Today as if it were Your Last!
> 
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-- 
 Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Qu’mica - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de P—s Gradua‹o em Engenharia Qu’mica - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universit‡rio
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
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2171557
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Re: [Biofuel] A nice experience

[Pannir P.V]

 The  waste vegetable oil is obtained by thermal cracking , the  soap 
ou glop may be  the glycerine part, the other free fatty acids as the
main products  , which under acid condiciones  and room temperatuture 
with longer time forming  BIOD .

This  may or may not be true 

  The  thermal cracking process is under   intensive  studies to make
Bio D in Brasil as this lead greater  lead  yields.This  method  need 
further studies .

sd
Pannirselvam



On 5/7/05, Pedro Ordonez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is a question I've had for a while now. If the purpose of making
> Biodiesel is to lower the viscosity of the oil, what would happen if we used
> just free fatty acids? Why won't that work?
> 
> Pieter Koole wrote:
> 
> >Some time ago I wrote about my mistake, to not boil off the water out of
> >wvo, so I finished up with a lump of soap, glop or whatever we can call it.
> >Alltogether it was 1000 liters. Now I decided to try to break the soap with
> >phosphoric acit (75%) and let it sit for several weeks. The soap was
> cracked
> >and I was lucky to siphon from the top just over 700 liters of BD. I have
> >been driving on it, without any problems.
> >Maybe someone out there can do something with this information.
> >I have been thinking that I might be driving on FFA's at the moment in
> stead
> >of BD, but it works.
> 
> Pedro
> 
> 
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> 


-- 
 Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Qu’mica - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de P—s Gradua‹o em Engenharia Qu’mica - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universit‡rio
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  Macio
EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
2171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
 2171557
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Re: [Biofuel] looking to travel, (fuel stops)&(stories) and biofuel

[Pannir P.V]

  HŽlio Billy

Wish you  the  best of the sucees.

Here , in  Brasil ,  people  are able to buy used small motor fiting
this in bicycle.You can thik of making   simple  flexivel biofuel 
motor bicycle , meet  te several biofuel  people and make the jouney
for ever.

sd
Pannir
On 5/7/05, billy truman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> I am planning a trip (search and see) around the
> states but I would rather not support our car culture.
> I am an avid cyclist but for time, I'd like to find
> some happy medium. So IF i can find people around the
> country that would be willing to share there
> experiences and maybe become a stop on what might
> become a route for travelers.
> 
> I don't have it yet, but I would like to have a web
> site that list all the stations, homes, farms, etc.
> they can stop at and fill up. (without supporting
> the...)
> 
> anything would help
> words of advice
> anything
> 
> your neighbor
> Chris
> 
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> 


-- 
  Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Qu’mica - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de P—s Gradua‹o em Engenharia Qu’mica - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universit‡rio
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  Macio
EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
2171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
 2171557
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[Biofuel] Clean Energy Show London

[Jules Veres]

Hi! I don't know if  anyone heard about this event in London.It should be next 
week.One of the attractions is the Saab 95 Biopower.It uses95%bioethanol and15% 
regular fuel.The engine can produce 180bhp.It sold about a 1000 units in Sweden 
already.The owners get special incentives fom the government :Free city 
parking,no highway tolls and special tax breaks for company vehicles.Wonder 
whwre else they will sell this one ?If anyone knows let me know please!!jules.
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[Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Pieter Koole]

Hi all,
I would like to give it another try to make ethanol from sawdust or other
cellulose materials.
In the past I have tried "Sawdust ethanol production" which I read somewhere
I think on JTF, but didn't succeed.
Well, IF I succeed this time, how can I now the % of ethanol and water ?
I have zeolite, so I should be able to dry the ethanol. Can I measure the
gravity to be sure enough I have 100% ethanol ?
Would zeolite also adsorbe the alcohol ? If yes, what to do ? Drying the
zeolite would cause loss of ethanol.or ??
Any advice on making ethanol from sawdust or newspapers would be very
welcome.

Another - maybe stupid - question :
Sometimes I read  in the messages. What does that mean ?

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands




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[Biofuel] Question about BD

[Pieter Koole]

Hello all,
Maybe a silly question, but I cannot figure out how it works really.
As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
like a head with 3 legs.
During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
methanol molecule on each leg.
When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
acids.
What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
about free fatty acids ? I would say that we only would need less lye,
because the legs are already lose.

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands




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RE: [Biofuel] A nice experience

[Keith Addison]

Biodiesel is to lower the viscosity of the oil,


That isn't the only purpose in making biodiesel, lower viscosity is 
only one aim.



what would happen if we used
just free fatty acids? Why won't that work?


It will work, but for how long?

From previous:

If you think viscosity is all that matters, you should also have a 
look at this:

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-Anso.html
Ricardo report on SVO - Niels Ans¿



... there's rather more to it than just viscosity, especially with DI
diesels - see the ACREVO study on this, for instance:
http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm
Advanced Combustion Research for Energy from Vegetable Oils (ACREVO)


And:

The Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, 
Denso, Bosch) issued a statement on biodiesel. They strongly support 
it, but they have their concerns too, and they're very involved in 
standards development... These are their concerns:

* Free methanol
* Dissolved and free water
* Free glycerin
* Mono and di glycerides
* Free fatty acids
* Total solid impurity levels
* Alkaline metal compounds in solution
* Oxidation and thermal stability

... Free fatty acid
Effect: Provides an electrolyte and hastens the corrosion of zinc, 
Salts of organic acids, Organic compounds formed
Failure Mode: Corrosion of fuel injection equipment, Filter 
plugging, Sediments on parts


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html
FIEM report

And so on.

Best wishes

Keith




Pieter Koole wrote:

>Some time ago I wrote about my mistake, to not boil off the water out of
>wvo, so I finished up with a lump of soap, glop or whatever we can call it.
>Alltogether it was 1000 liters. Now I decided to try to break the soap with
>phosphoric acit (75%) and let it sit for several weeks. The soap was
cracked
>and I was lucky to siphon from the top just over 700 liters of BD. I have
>been driving on it, without any problems.
>Maybe someone out there can do something with this information.
>I have been thinking that I might be driving on FFA's at the moment in
stead
>of BD, but it works.


Pedro


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Re: [Biofuel] Clean Energy Show London

[Hakan Falk]

Just a bit curious, since when and where did they start with highway tolls 
in Sweden? Free city parking and special tax breaks, I did not read about 
any revolutions in Sweden. LOL


Hakan


At 03:22 AM 5/8/2005, you wrote:
Hi! I don't know if  anyone heard about this event in London.It should be 
next week.One of the attractions is the Saab 95 Biopower.It 
uses95%bioethanol and15% regular fuel.The engine can produce 180bhp.It 
sold about a 1000 units in Sweden already.The owners get special 
incentives fom the government :Free city parking,no highway tolls and 
special tax breaks for company vehicles.Wonder whwre else they will sell 
this one ?If anyone knows let me know please!!jules.



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Re: [Biofuel] Clean Energy Show London

[Go Hoff]

 Hakan wrote:
> Just a bit curious, since when and where did they start with highway tolls
> in Sweden? Free city parking and special tax breaks, I did not read about
> any revolutions in Sweden. LOL

Well, there is the bridge over to Denmark paid for by taxes with a one way
toll higher than a Ryan air ticket from Sweden to most European
destinations.
Ethanol cars and the Prius will be exempt to the congestion tariffs which
have now been finally approved for Stockholm.
In Linkšping and Norrkšping the above vehicles also park free - not sure
about other places but I seem to remember Uppsala too.
These vehicles when used as combined company/private or company subsidised
cars give a better tax break for the individuals using them.

All of the above doesn't help much though. Me, I can't afford the bridge or
Ryan, can't afford a new or different car, don't live anywhere near a place
I can't usually park for free, don't have a company so can't cheat on taxes
and I still have 60 km's round trip to my nearest shop which costs 68 skr
(app $10 US) every time at today's diesel prices (10 km litre), and a 75 cl
bottle of Vodka still costs 220 skr (app $32 US) so I can't drown my sorrows
either ;-(

Even though ethanol is cheaper at the pump the fuel saving cost is
negligible as consumption is higher. Most of the above at
>http://svt.se/plus<
click 'se plus' and watch last weeks video.


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Re: [Biofuel] A nice experience

[JanWarnqvist]

Helllo Pedro.
The point of making biodiesel out of oil is not just to lower the viscosity,
but also to change the molecule structure,making the oil obtain more diesel
fuel-like properties. Frre fatty acids are a lot more difficult to combust,
and have (in general) higher melting points than the ones that are attached
to methanol (or ethanol) in the biodiesel.
With best regards
Jan Warnqvist
- Original Message -
From: "Pedro Ordonez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2005 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] A nice experience


> This is a question I've had for a while now. If the purpose of making
> Biodiesel is to lower the viscosity of the oil, what would happen if we
used
> just free fatty acids? Why won't that work?
>
> Pieter Koole wrote:
>
> >Some time ago I wrote about my mistake, to not boil off the water out of
> >wvo, so I finished up with a lump of soap, glop or whatever we can call
it.
> >Alltogether it was 1000 liters. Now I decided to try to break the soap
with
> >phosphoric acit (75%) and let it sit for several weeks. The soap was
> cracked
> >and I was lucky to siphon from the top just over 700 liters of BD. I have
> >been driving on it, without any problems.
> >Maybe someone out there can do something with this information.
> >I have been thinking that I might be driving on FFA's at the moment in
> stead
> >of BD, but it works.
>
>
> Pedro
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Clean Energy Show London

[Hakan Falk]

Gohoff,

Wow, -:) no wonder it is newsworthy. I would not really call the bridge a
highway in Sweden, but I did pay the bridge a few times. You are cheating
a little bit here.

I knew about the discussions about congestion tariffs, but never thought
that it already was approved. It was a lot of hard work to achieve 
congestions,

so Stockholm could get on the list of busy Capitals and motivate that the
politicians could make it an issue. LOL

Many years ago I was selling and working with simulation software in
Sweden and it must have been a work of art to create so many problems
that Stockholm have. Even if they did not reach the status of London and
Paris, it was an optimum of what they could achieve to reach the status
of a Country Capital. That was a challenge for linear programming, because
it was impossible to create so much problems with manual methods.

Parking in Linkšping and Norrkšping has always been free, if you only
accept to walk 500m, Maybe it is more like 1 km, so you get out on
the country side. A little bit more for Uppsala. LOL

Come and visit me in Spain and we will find a good temporary solution
for the drinking problem, without filtering the fuel. Sweden is one of the
countries in the world, with the highest Ethanol use. It is also quite a
large part of the population, who are experts on Ethanol production. LOL

Hakan

At 10:25 AM 5/8/2005, you wrote:

 Hakan wrote:
> Just a bit curious, since when and where did they start with highway tolls
> in Sweden? Free city parking and special tax breaks, I did not read about
> any revolutions in Sweden. LOL

Well, there is the bridge over to Denmark paid for by taxes with a one way
toll higher than a Ryan air ticket from Sweden to most European
destinations.
Ethanol cars and the Prius will be exempt to the congestion tariffs which
have now been finally approved for Stockholm.
In Linkšping and Norrkšping the above vehicles also park free - not sure
about other places but I seem to remember Uppsala too.
These vehicles when used as combined company/private or company subsidised
cars give a better tax break for the individuals using them.

All of the above doesn't help much though. Me, I can't afford the bridge or
Ryan, can't afford a new or different car, don't live anywhere near a place
I can't usually park for free, don't have a company so can't cheat on taxes
and I still have 60 km's round trip to my nearest shop which costs 68 skr
(app $10 US) every time at today's diesel prices (10 km litre), and a 75 cl
bottle of Vodka still costs 220 skr (app $32 US) so I can't drown my sorrows
either ;-(

Even though ethanol is cheaper at the pump the fuel saving cost is
negligible as consumption is higher. Most of the above at
>http://svt.se/plus<
click 'se plus' and watch last weeks video.



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Re: [Biofuel] Clean Energy Show London

[Jules Veres]

Hi Hakan! I got the info on the Saab Biopower from a Hungarian site called 
Totalcar.It had a picture and the story so if its not true than its something 
they made up! If you want to see it its :www.totalcar.hu  Jules.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Hakan Falk 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 5:23 AM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Clean Energy Show London



  Gohoff,

  Wow, -:) no wonder it is newsworthy. I would not really call the bridge a
  highway in Sweden, but I did pay the bridge a few times. You are cheating
  a little bit here.

  I knew about the discussions about congestion tariffs, but never thought
  that it already was approved. It was a lot of hard work to achieve 
  congestions,
  so Stockholm could get on the list of busy Capitals and motivate that the
  politicians could make it an issue. LOL

  Many years ago I was selling and working with simulation software in
  Sweden and it must have been a work of art to create so many problems
  that Stockholm have. Even if they did not reach the status of London and
  Paris, it was an optimum of what they could achieve to reach the status
  of a Country Capital. That was a challenge for linear programming, because
  it was impossible to create so much problems with manual methods.

  Parking in Linkšping and Norrkšping has always been free, if you only
  accept to walk 500m, Maybe it is more like 1 km, so you get out on
  the country side. A little bit more for Uppsala. LOL

  Come and visit me in Spain and we will find a good temporary solution
  for the drinking problem, without filtering the fuel. Sweden is one of the
  countries in the world, with the highest Ethanol use. It is also quite a
  large part of the population, who are experts on Ethanol production. LOL

  Hakan

  At 10:25 AM 5/8/2005, you wrote:
  >  Hakan wrote:
  > > Just a bit curious, since when and where did they start with highway tolls
  > > in Sweden? Free city parking and special tax breaks, I did not read about
  > > any revolutions in Sweden. LOL
  >
  >Well, there is the bridge over to Denmark paid for by taxes with a one way
  >toll higher than a Ryan air ticket from Sweden to most European
  >destinations.
  >Ethanol cars and the Prius will be exempt to the congestion tariffs which
  >have now been finally approved for Stockholm.
  >In Linkšping and Norrkšping the above vehicles also park free - not sure
  >about other places but I seem to remember Uppsala too.
  >These vehicles when used as combined company/private or company subsidised
  >cars give a better tax break for the individuals using them.
  >
  >All of the above doesn't help much though. Me, I can't afford the bridge or
  >Ryan, can't afford a new or different car, don't live anywhere near a place
  >I can't usually park for free, don't have a company so can't cheat on taxes
  >and I still have 60 km's round trip to my nearest shop which costs 68 skr
  >(app $10 US) every time at today's diesel prices (10 km litre), and a 75 cl
  >bottle of Vodka still costs 220 skr (app $32 US) so I can't drown my sorrows
  >either ;-(
  >
  >Even though ethanol is cheaper at the pump the fuel saving cost is
  >negligible as consumption is higher. Most of the above at
  > >http://svt.se/plus<
  >click 'se plus' and watch last weeks video.


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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Dean Thomas]

Sorry I could be mistaken there is always something new to learn but do 
you mean methanol instead of ethanol. Methanol is otherwise known as 
wood alcohol and a small amount is formed during on the grain 
fermentation during the making of alcohol (Ethanol) beverages the Grain 
husks being the wood part. Not noing any better or of it is even 
possible I would imagine that the only alcohol able to be formed from 
sawdust could be methanol.

To make ethanol you ferment sugars.
To work out the Ethanol content of ethanol/water mix, at any local 
home-brew shop you can purchase hydrometers. Beer/wine hydrometers are 
good up to 20% Spirit hydrometers are good up to 100% about the best you 
can hope for at home is 95-96%.


Dean.

Pieter Koole wrote:


Hi all,
I would like to give it another try to make ethanol from sawdust or other
cellulose materials.
In the past I have tried "Sawdust ethanol production" which I read somewhere
I think on JTF, but didn't succeed.
Well, IF I succeed this time, how can I now the % of ethanol and water ?
I have zeolite, so I should be able to dry the ethanol. Can I measure the
gravity to be sure enough I have 100% ethanol ?
Would zeolite also adsorbe the alcohol ? If yes, what to do ? Drying the
zeolite would cause loss of ethanol.or ??
Any advice on making ethanol from sawdust or newspapers would be very
welcome.

Another - maybe stupid - question :
Sometimes I read  in the messages. What does that mean ?

Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands




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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Pannir P.V]

  Helow Pieter Koole 

  The free fatty acids  react with Naoh , make sop and  hence  retards
 as this this an unwanted  byprocts  as this  one is called the
saponifcation , where as the other one  you understand well is
transesterication , whwr both the  by products are glyceine where is
the main product  is the  Bio D and soap .
  I hope you understand  now 

sd
Pannir selvam
Brasil
  

On 5/8/05, Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello all,
> Maybe a silly question, but I cannot figure out how it works really.
> As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
> like a head with 3 legs.
> During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
> methanol molecule on each leg.
> When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
> acids.
> What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
> So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
> about free fatty acids ? I would say that we only would need less lye,
> because the legs are already lose.
> 
> Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
> Pieter Koole
> Netherlands
> 
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> 


-- 
 Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Qu’mica - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de P—s Gradua‹o em Engenharia Qu’mica - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universit‡rio
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  Macio
EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
2171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
 2171557
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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Pannir P.V]

 Helo Pieter
  

 As we have done  Phd  work on the  etanol form biomass  via enymatic 
in 1980 from IIT Delhi , see earlier post  in this list,we like to
help in your effort towards  making etanol form  biomass.

Please  kindly send  details about your past experiments.
Zeolite surely can be used to  seprate the  alcoihol by adsorcao.
welcom for   our  social technology network

sd
Pannirselvam 
Brasiil


On 5/7/05, Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I would like to give it another try to make ethanol from sawdust or other
> cellulose materials.
> In the past I have tried "Sawdust ethanol production" which I read somewhere
> I think on JTF, but didn't succeed.
> Well, IF I succeed this time, how can I now the % of ethanol and water ?
> I have zeolite, so I should be able to dry the ethanol. Can I measure the
> gravity to be sure enough I have 100% ethanol ?
> Would zeolite also adsorbe the alcohol ? If yes, what to do ? Drying the
> zeolite would cause loss of ethanol.or ??
> Any advice on making ethanol from sawdust or newspapers would be very
> welcome.
> 
> Another - maybe stupid - question :
> Sometimes I read  in the messages. What does that mean ?
> 
> Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
> Pieter Koole
> Netherlands
> 
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> Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable):
> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 


-- 
 Pagandai V Pannirselvam
Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Qu’mica - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
Programa de P—s Gradua‹o em Engenharia Qu’mica - PPGEQ
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos - GPEC

Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universit‡rio
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
Av  Odilon gome de lima, 2951,
   Q6/Bl.G/Apt 102
   Capim  Macio
EP 59.078-400 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
2171557
Telefone(fax) ( 84 ) 215-3770 Ramal20
 2171557
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Re: [Biofuel] palm oil

[Manick Harris]

Heernica,
Pl try to acquire copy of proc of 1998 biodiesel conference organised by porim, 
a mal. govt. R&D body, which is mentioned in this url:
 http://mpob.gov.my/pub_list.htm

heernica <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
hi, if anyone knows of a running plant using palm oil to make biodiesel I would 
be very interested in its process. 
thanks,
Hen.



Enjoy Today as if it were Your Last!

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Re: [Biofuel] Question about BD

[Keith Addison]

Maybe a silly question,


They say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Not sure 
about silly answers though ... But we aren't chemists and lots of 
other people also aren't chemists, so let's see what we can make of 
it and if it's silly maybe a kindly chemist will help us out.



but I cannot figure out how it works really.
As far as I understand, veg.oil exists out of a glycerol + 3 fatty acids,
like a head with 3 legs.


I think make it three heads with their arms linked.


During the BD proces, we break off the legs, using NaOH, and connect a
methanol molecule on each leg.


They break off one by one: triglycerides become di-glycerides (two 
legs) plus an alkyl ester (one leg), one molecule of glycerin drops 
out. Then the di-glycerides become mono-glycerides (one leg) plus 
another alkyl ester and another molecule of glycerin drops out. The 
mono-glycerides then become alkyl esters and a third molecule of 
glycerin drops out.



When we break off the legs, I would think we have free legs, so free fatty
acids.


This process above is transesterification, when one alcohol molecule 
(glycerine) in a fatty acid chain is replaced by another alcohol 
molecule (methanol). The process reaches equilibrium before 
completion and can then go into reverse, cutting the legs off alkyl 
esters so they turn into FFAs, which dissolve back into the 
biodiesel. You can't transesterify FFAs because there's no alcohol 
molecule left to replace. Esterification joins a new alcohol molecule 
onto an FFA, ie acid esterification, and base transesterification.



What mistakes do I make when I think this is how it works ?
So, if this is how it works (which is prob. not the case), why do we worry
about free fatty acids ?


See my reply to "RE: [Biofuel] A nice experience":

The Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, 
Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) issued a statement on biodiesel. They 
strongly support it, but they have their concerns too, and they're 
very involved in standards development... These are their concerns:

* Free methanol
* Dissolved and free water
* Free glycerin
* Mono and di glycerides
* Free fatty acids
* Total solid impurity levels
* Alkaline metal compounds in solution
* Oxidation and thermal stability

... Free fatty acid
Effect: Provides an electrolyte and hastens the corrosion of zinc, 
Salts of organic acids, Organic compounds formed
Failure Mode: Corrosion of fuel injection equipment, Filter 
plugging, Sediments on parts


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html
FIEM report

And so on.


For instance.


I would say that we only would need less lye,
because the legs are already lose.


They need heads, and then it should be the right kind of head. 
Triglycerides (SVO) and monoalkyl esters (biodiesel) are good diesel 
fuels, anything in between isn't - di-glycerides, mono-glycerides, 
FFAs, along with any remaining glycerine, as well as any excess 
methanol. All the national standards regard them as contaminants.


So don't use "less lye" and don't use more lye, use the right amount 
to make good biodiesel. Good biodiesel is as pure as possible with a 
minimum of contaminants.


It doesn't really matter how you go about making it, we all have our 
different ways. You find out what works and what doesn't, and then 
you also find out what works for you and what doesn't. There are 
plenty of checks along the way to tell you if you're heading in the 
right direction or not. Especially when you wash it. Just as long as 
you end up with good biodiesel for your motor.


For SVO, the European standards don't include WVO, many people 
supplying or working with SVO systems say "No WVO", and the FFA 
content is one reason for that. Elsewhere, some people making, 
selling or using SVO kits say there's no issue with WVO as long as 
it's clean and dry and you pre-heat it to lower the viscosity. The 
viscosity, again, is all that matters, they say. But they can't cite 
much research to prove it, and what few longer-term results they have 
are inconclusive, while there's a lot of research behind the European 
standards (much of it in German), and a lot of experience in Europe 
too. According to the research, good SVO fuel is also as pure as 
possible with a minimum of contaminants, including FFA.


I can't figure out how much FFA you've got in your biodiesel, but 
1,000 litres is a lot of fuel. Maybe it's not enough to do any harm, 
or maybe you could mix it with clean biodiesel to dilute it, or maybe 
use clean biodiesel in alternate tankfuls.


Best wishes

Keith



Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands


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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Keith Addison]

I would like to give it another try to make ethanol from sawdust or other
cellulose materials.
In the past I have tried "Sawdust ethanol production" which I read somewhere
I think on JTF, but didn't succeed.


Others have. Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid hydrolysis is a 
long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still 
the only method available to backyarders, though that could change 
anytime with new enzymes and new techniques being developed. Maybe 
Pannir will change it. Otherwise you have to use sugar or starch 
crops (or wastes), ferment it, distill it and dry it. If you're not 
going to mix the ethanol with gasoline there's no need to dry it. If 
you want to experiment with ethyl esters biodiesel you do need to dry 
it.



Well, IF I succeed this time, how can I now the % of ethanol and water ?
I have zeolite, so I should be able to dry the ethanol. Can I measure the
gravity to be sure enough I have 100% ethanol ?
Would zeolite also adsorbe the alcohol ?


If it's 3A zeolite, it will absorb the water but not the ethanol.


If yes, what to do ? Drying the
zeolite would cause loss of ethanol.or ??


Dry and reuse.


Any advice on making ethanol from sawdust or newspapers would be very
welcome.
Another - maybe stupid - question :
Sometimes I read  in the messages. What does that mean ?


It means a bit of the previous message has been cut. Previous 
material that's not important anymore should be snipped and marked 
, it saves bandwidth and improves communication.


Best

Keith



Met  dank en vriendelijke groet,
Pieter Koole
Netherlands


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[Biofuel] (no subject)

[The Casey's]

Biofuel list
I have the opportunity to supply waste oil for fuel.
I am trying to find out how to clean used oil after I collect it.
I have been unable to find info on cleaning and storage standards.
I know a certain amount of filtering is required.
What % of water can be expected to separate out in X time at 70Ftemp? Do I
need bactericide or additives?
How do I test for %-hydrolyzed water?
What PH am I looking for and how do I adjust?
Is there no SOP for doing this somewhere!?
Thanks Al

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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Michael Redler]

OK, Since we're on the subject, I've been wondering where I can purchase the 
H2SO4 necessary for this process. Can anyone give me some direction?
 
Mike

Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hi all,
>I would like to give it another try to make ethanol from sawdust or other
>cellulose materials.
>In the past I have tried "Sawdust ethanol production" which I read somewhere
>I think on JTF, but didn't succeed.

Others have. Producing ethanol from cellolose by acid hydrolysis is a 
long-established method still used all over the world, and it's still 
the only method available to backyarders, though that could change 
anytime with new enzymes and new techniques being developed. Maybe 
Pannir will change it. Otherwise you have to use sugar or starch 
crops (or wastes), ferment it, distill it and dry it. If you're not 
going to mix the ethanol with gasoline there's no need to dry it. If 
you want to experiment with ethyl esters biodiesel you do need to dry 
it.

>Well, IF I succeed this time, how can I now the % of ethanol and water ?
>I have zeolite, so I should be able to dry the ethanol. Can I measure the
>gravity to be sure enough I have 100% ethanol ?
>Would zeolite also adsorbe the alcohol ?

If it's 3A zeolite, it will absorb the water but not the ethanol.

>If yes, what to do ? Drying the
>zeolite would cause loss of ethanol.or ??

Dry and reuse.

>Any advice on making ethanol from sawdust or newspapers would be very
>welcome.
>Another - maybe stupid - question :
>Sometimes I read in the messages. What does that mean ?

It means a bit of the previous message has been cut. Previous 
material that's not important anymore should be snipped and marked 
, it saves bandwidth and improves communication.

Best

Keith


>Met dank en vriendelijke groet,
>Pieter Koole
>Netherlands

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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Chris]

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/

OK, Since we're on the subject, I've been wondering where I can purchase 
the H2SO4 necessary for this process. Can anyone give me some direction?



Chris K
Cayce, SC 



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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Brian]

an account with them to do it.  I guess that Sulfuric Acid is on some sort 
of restricted list due to potential uses for bomb making or some such. 
Makes it more difficult to get, but not impossible.  With Fischer, if you 
just give yourself a corporate name and have some commercial address to 
accept the shipment (I used my work address), you can order it.


Brian

- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Redler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2005 3:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol


OK, Since we're on the subject, I've been wondering where I can purchase 
the H2SO4 necessary for this process. Can anyone give me some direction?


Mike



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Re: [Biofuel] Questions about ethanol

[Michael Redler]

Whoa!
 
...Mike

Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I assume this is for US only shipping:

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/

> OK, Since we're on the subject, I've been wondering where I can purchase 
> the H2SO4 necessary for this process. Can anyone give me some direction?
>
Chris K
Cayce, SC 
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