Re: [Biofuel] Union of Concerned Scientists

[Appal Energy]

> There is concern on the part of The Union of Concerned Scientists that
> US automakers are going to frustrate the introduction of the hybrids.

Worry not Kirk. It's a plausible reality.

Detroit is going to work itself (and hundreds of thousands of the cogs 
in its wheels) out of a job over the next four or five
years. The big three will be nearly bankrupt and belly up after we see 
$75.00 and rising bbls of oil, looking for

taxpayer handouts as did Chrysler in the 80's, while compact and
sub-compact imports will excell as the norm and be on a roll as the
market "rage."

Remember? George told everyone when he canceled PNGV that hybrids
weren't "the way, the truth and the light." Hydrogen is the answer...,
somewhere down the road when his great, great grandson is also selected 
to be

president of the US after another Floridia fiasco.

Just another way of exporting US jobs and turning the US into the
world's largest service economy.

Too bad the gene pool for stupidity doesn't get smaller and smaller like
the shrinking dollar with each passing year.

I'd say right about now is a good time for anyone employed in US
automobile manufacturing to cash in on early retirement or start looking
for a new day job.

Todd Swearingen


Kirk McLoren wrote:

There is concern on the part of The Union of Concerned Scientists that 
US automakers are going to frustrate the introduction of the hybrids. 
If you want to send letters they are automated.

-Kirk
 
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Jesus was a liberal..., and look what it got him... was Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Appal Energy]

You twist the argument Nancy, and intentionally barb it with a 
misconstruction of what others actually believe. I wonder what a reader 
is expected to construe from such an act?


In the first place, there are enormous "herds" of people who believe in 
the right to life for all life. (In case you missed it, that is "ALL" 
life and all species, not just decision by "short straw.")


What it sounds like to me is that you are somehow willing to relegate 
all of your god's creations to a consecutive order of importance, or 
unimportance, depending upon which end of the ladder you're starting from.


I wonder what he or she would think about the indifferent 
anhilation/extinction of one, multiple and eventually thousands of 
species by another, much less the eventual extermination of one specie's 
own self as a result of the choice to exhibit no forethought for others 
or anything beyond itself? Hm. What rubric might you be praying 
under were your Jesus to have conducted his affairs in the same manner? 
The First Southern Baptist Church of Me?" (Perhaps the Jesus part is a 
bit presumptive. But then again, that camp often leaves a large, debris 
strewn swath in its wake, much as did you.)


(If Jesus only had an Evinrude and a few sticks of dynamite.., 
maybe he would have had no need for miracles?)


But as to a creator, or god, or whatever your preference might be, might 
his or her thoughts be that everything has its place and humans think 
wrongly that it's their "right" to pick and choose which species to 
relegate into oblivion? Or is it more probable that his or her creations 
weren't quite so perfect as originally thought and the intervention of 
humans is entirely necessary in order to straighten out all those 
initial mistakes?


The latter is all rather doubtful. More like humans have a god complex 
and tend to try and reinforce their "superiority" ("dominion") at every 
opportune and inopportune moment possible, in every venue, whether 
"requisite" or not. Funny that "dominion" thing. All rather like kicking 
a dead horse to prove one is still in "control," when all it proves is 
just how little in control one really is. The horse may not kick back, 
but neither will it pull the wagon any further..


A lot to be said for good stewardship

Secondly? I don't think there is or needs to be a secondly. Everyone 
would really like to live in a world where every child is wanted. Where 
the social and economic pressures don't exist that give women, men and 
even children cause to terminate pregnancies early. Everyone would like 
to have a peaceful existence where there are no demands placed upon them 
other than to enjoy the sheer beauty of being alive - no kissing up or 
being subservient to warlords, multi-nationals, politicians of 
particular design or the obnoxious manager at the local five and dime, 
Mal-Wart or Bob Evans.


In case you missed that chapter in your biblical studies, there was a 
time when that was the norm. They called it Eden (at least by one 
biblical account) And then humans fouled the water, shat in their own 
bed and bespoiled all the good that they had, thinking that there was 
something more out there that they needed to know or somehow they could 
improve on what was already as good as it could ever be.


That should sound familiar, as we continue to do the same thing to this 
very day. One definition of insanity is "doing the same thing, over and 
over again, with expectation of achieving a different result." That 
doesn't speak well of us as a "superior" species.


Frankly Nancy? One would tend to believe that you need to find your 
answers in broader places rather than being content in painting other 
humans with the singularly narrow brush from your black and white 
bucket, especially those whom you not only don't know, but who's 
circumstances you are apparently oblivious to in some part.


Maybe when you can empathize with tens of millions of men, women and 
children who have precious little control over their own fate and are 
issued death sentences by presidential proxy - whether that be 
withholding family planning funds that provide condoms or initiating 
international and national policies of embargos, wars, protectionism, 
corporatism, cronyism and elitism that strip away lives at every stage 
of what should be a wonderful living process - maybe then you'll not be 
so quick to assign attributes that don't exist to others and start 
seeing "right to life" as more than just a singular issue.

.
And now back to our regularly scheduled biofuels programming.

Oh wait. It's human selfishness, "superiority" and indifference to the 
rest of the world's creations that has brought us to today's fossil fuel 
dilemma.


So I guess there's no need to change the channel at all

Todd Swearingen
.

"Against abortion? Get a vasectomy."
...

Nancy C

Re: [Biofuel] formula for a 55 gallon

[Keith Addison]

how much ethanol to used for a 35gallon wvo.

and how much lye.


Don't do it!

Making ethanol biodiesel is not for novices, see:

Ethyl esters -- making ethanol biodiesel
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester

Anyway, you should ALWAYS make small test batches (1 litre) when 
trying something new, not 35 gallons.


Start here:
"Where do I start?"
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#start

Best wishes

Keith


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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Keith Addison]

uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance 
and right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies.


I would have to say "I disagree!"  the Netiqutte rules govern my 
language. There is a massive over population problem on this planet 
and it is not the snails. Nuff said?

Brian Rodgers


Not 'nuff said. The massive overpopulation problem on this planet is 
a myth. From a previous message, rather than having to thrash it out 
all over again:


The overpopulation problem is more realistically a marginalisation 
problem. There's plenty of room and resources for everyone and 
everything else too, except the greedy. Check it out - 
eco-footprinting's a not-bad place to start, it's developed a lot in 
recent years. Look at which societies exceed their due allotment and 
which don't, check the groups within those societies which exceed 
their due allotment and which don't.


"Myth 3 - Too Many People. Reality: Birth rates are falling rapidly 
worldwide as remaining regions of the Third World begin the 
demographic transition -- when birth rates drop in response to an 
earlier decline in death rates. Although rapid population growth 
remains a serious concern in many countries, nowhere does population 
density explain hunger. For every Bangladesh, a densely populated 
and hungry country, we find a Nigeria, Brazil or Bolivia, where 
abundant food resources coexist with hunger. Costa Rica, with only 
half of Honduras' cropped acres per person, boasts a life expectancy 
-- one indicator of nutrition -- 11 years longer than that of 
Honduras and close to that of developed countries. Rapid population 
growth is not the root cause of hunger. Like hunger itself, it 
results from underlying inequities that deprive people, especially 
poor women, of economic opportunity and security. Rapid population 
growth and hunger are endemic to societies where land ownership, 
jobs, education, health care, and old age security are beyond the 
reach of most people. Those Third World societies with dramatically 
successful early and rapid reductions of population growth rates -- 
China, Sri Lanka, Colombia, Cuba and the Indian state of Kerala -- 
prove that the lives of the poor, especially poor women, must 
improve before they can choose to have fewer children."

http://www.foodfirst.org/pubs/backgrdrs/1998/s98v5n3.html
12 Myths About Hunger

There's a very large amount of evidence for that.

"A smaller increase in production would suffice if its growth were 
accompanied by more equitable access to food. This could be achieved 
through redistribution - of food itself, of the means of producing 
it or of the purchasing power needed to buy it -- to those currently 
on the lower rungs of the food access ladder." Unfortunately, the 
experience of the past thirty years shows no significant decline in 
inequity of access among households in most countries." -- FAO

http://www.fao.org/WAICENT/OIS/PRESS_NE/PRESSENG/2001/pren0169.htm

"Overpopulation" is a symptom, just as poverty and hunger are 
symptoms, and the cause is an inequitable economic system. If 
overpopulation were a reality it would indeed be an intractable 
problem; if poverty and hunger existed, and increased as they do, 
because there just wasn't enough to go round, that too would be an 
intractable problem. But a dysfunctional economic system is not an 
intractable problem.


http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg32911.html
Re: [biofuel] The Oil we eat (Harper's)

Best wishes

Keith


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[Biofuel] formula for a 55 gallon

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

how much ethanol to used for a 35gallon wvo.
and how much lye.
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[RobertCVA]

In a message dated 8/1/2005 1:45:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"I am 
  amazed and the quanity of people who will uphold and fight for some snails 
  life, being of great importance and right to live, yet believe it is okay 
  to kill babies. That the Child is of no value and has no right to 
  life."
Actually, I don't think I've ever heard anyone (although Brian Rogers 
comment has me a bit worried . . . and there are troubling, and apparently 
factual reports of infanticide in some places) who believes the literal meaning 
of these statements you wrote.
 
Although I don't believe in the gratuitous killing of anything, the issue 
of protecting snails, etc., is to protect the diversity and health of our 
ecosystems (and for some, out of respect for the wonder of life).   If 
we want our children to have a world that's liveable, we better be concerned 
about the natural world in which they will exist.
 
As far as "killing babies," I suspect most of us recognize the code words 
for abortion.  It should be stating the obvious that deciding at what 
point, from merger of sperm with ovum onward, that a child's life begins 
and terminating that life is unresolvable.  Certainly people should 
weigh heavily the biological and ethical issues before making their own personal 
decisions on this, but (as at least one other post has suggested), trying to 
impose one's own conclusions on another just isn't going to work politically or 
practically, even in a tightly controlled society.   
 
Bob
 
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Alt.EnergyNetwork]

I had to jump in here!

O n0, not an abortion debate. Women have every right to full control over 
their
own bodys and should have complete feedom of choice. 
Another example of the difference between
 red and blue states??

Dictating christian moral beliefs as if they were "gospel" and trying to 
influence law makers is not
the way to go to develop an open, multicultural, tolerant 
suatainablesociety..even if you are arguing about abortion rights..and it is 
happening way too often.

While christianity has its place, Suppression of scientific fact does not,  
Spirituality takes many forms and a society that celebrates  diversity,  has 
many advantages over one that does not. At least half the country believes in a 
more moderate view of the world than is presented politically.. You may also 
want to consider 
traveling outside the U. S. and discover just how out
 of sink and isolated (you)  may have  become in the planetary scheme of 
things.. There is a BIG world out there that you oviously are unaware off. and 
it is not too hardto imagine why some people are angry with us.
Maybe you would rather continue to get gouged by ever increasing energy costs, 
giving all your gas expenses to over bloated multinationals , contributing to 
terrorists and a deterioration of established living standards? 

Continue to pay to drive a gas hog and see where that gets you.
 As long as you cling to old ideas and shy away from
 innovative solutions to our energy independence problems through denial and 20 
century thinking,
you will be no further ahead and YOU certainly won't be comfortable or have an 
modicum of energy security
 in the years ahead..

You also might want to wake up to the fact that there are millions of folks 
that don't agree with your philosophy. It's a big world out there and you will 
find that you view of things is to be questioned and pretty provincial.

What is your reasoning to comparing snails to abortions?
 
A society that respects diversity and tolerates others that are different  is 
much better adopted
 to survive and cooperate in the difficult years we face ahead.

 
>  > some snails life, being of great importance
>  > and right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child
>  > is of no value and has no right to life

I respect your right to view abortions as wrong but lets face reality here. 
Abortions are a fact of life. They are not going away and will continue to be
 performed legally (or illegally)
wether you like it or not, or are you going to arm yourself and blow up 
abortion clinics for your religious beliefs. 
Well that is just demented. . Nothing you or others  do will change this so
 GET OVER iT >
 Trying to influence government policy based on religious ideollogy is wrong 
and that
 hypocracy is breeding,  international animosities..
If you don't beleve that, then you are at odds with most of the world. Where 
are you getting your 
information from, your local pastor exclusively?? 

 Snails, frogs, tadpoles are solid boilogical health indicators of the state of 
the planet, and 
all is not wel at all, because of us. They are solid  indicators of what wlll 
happen to us if we don't clean up our act and fast. We are polluting and 
destroying the earth at an incredable rate  and WEill soon be "the canary in 
the coal mine" instead of the canary.

 Using stem cells from aborted fetuses could 
save your grand/father/mother from Alheimers, clone replacement hearts, lungs 
and other organs and limbs, 
save a newborn baby from certain death, so many potential remedies from this 
promising area of 
research, absolutely stymied by this administrations reluctance to sanction 
this type of reseach,
another example of religion having far too much influence in government.  I 
know about this first hand, as my brother is a professor deeply involved in 
genetic research and does a lot of work in this area. He continually complains 
about the suppression of  research data, research funding cuts and right wing 
religious interfearance.
Because of 
this researchthere is the
veryrealposssability of curing some major diseases through manipulating these 
techniques.
As if the neocons narrow view of society is the intelligent or right choice. 
Yes I'm really, really pissed off with the
continued  tactics of these people for the sole purpose of money in their 
pockets, under the guise of the moral right.
 Fortunately they seem to be seeing a little more light in recent months with 
admissions that funding and pursuing these developments just might be a good 
idea. 

I quess you have nothing to say about the thousands of dogs and cats that get 
put down every week because they are unwanted? Life is life? Are they a higher 
enough life form than snails for you? Just another example of our thow away 
society. I really, trully fear for the next generation.
 We are in serious deep SH-- if we don't get our act together..

I would much rather concentrate on being able to live off the grid,

[Biofuel] Union of Concerned Scientists

[Kirk McLoren]

There is concern on the part of The Union of Concerned Scientists that US automakers are going to frustrate the introduction of the hybrids. If you want to send letters they are automated. 
-Kirk
 
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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[capt3d]

how the heck did we get around to the topic of killing babies?  who's 'killing babies'?
 
are you suggesting that environmentalists = baby killers?
 
you really don't want to go there, nancy.  you're just wasting your time.
 
-chris b. -Original Message-From: Nancy Canning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 12:45:13 -0500Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


I agree with you Gustl. Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who will uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance and right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child is of no value and has no right to life. - Original Message - From: "des" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:  Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country  > Thank you! That was the first message in this thread I found worth saving > for future reference. Too much out there, (government, business and > religion) has propagated the illusion of separation, competition and > isolation... We could easily forget that we do all come from the same > Source, sad to say though, that when mankind tries to give that Source a > name, religion develops, and separation of our unity follows. > > doug swanson > > > > Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote: > >>Hallo Whomever, >> >>Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote: >> >>Wwrc> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better >>than Wwrc> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We >>Trust". >> >>"In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited."? I assume that you have >>NEVER listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then? Jerry Falwell? Pat >>Robertson? >> >>"In GOD We Trust"? The qualifier "Somewhat" does not appear there >>between "We" and "Trust". Those trusting in God are those rejecting >>the ways of the world and following the ways of the Lord. That would >>be those in peace churches and not involving themselves in national >>politics and perhaps not even state politics. I assume you mean "In >>the bible we trust" instead, with the caveat of your own particular >>interpretations of that and including the old testament which has, >>according to virtually all biblical scholars of the Christian bent >>been fulfilled and the jots and tittles have been changed. >> >>It is very interesting watching the contortions of the theologians >>trying to make the black words in the bible match up to the red words >>when they flatly contradict them in so many cases. If they trusted in >>God they would have the ability to get to their knowledge without the >>aid of such an inadequate medium as the written word. It is not so >>interesting watching them pulling verses or partial verses out of >>context and trying to warp them to their own particular beliefs. They >>would rather define truth to match their own limited understanding >>rather than take the trouble to bring their understanding in line with >>truth. Makes one ill. >> >>I generally attempt to be more kind in my observations but I really >>get weary watching people serving two masters while claiming to be >>serving only one. That which is good, right and true speaks for >>itself and the rest requires justification. There are a lot of >>"Christians" who are going to be justifying their heads off and a lot >>who don't call themselves Christian who won't need to do so. Law vs >>Spirit. There are a lot of folks out there who may have read but have >>either forgotten or do not understand MT 25:12, LK 13:25, LK 13:27 and >>JN 5:42. Perhaps they just think claiming to believe something is >>tautologous with demonstrating the fruits of the belief. Fruits? >>GAL 5:22. You won't find a lot of those fruits in politics whether >>left, right or center. >> >>Before I forget: MT 7:3-5 >> >>There is a great difference between reading the words and knowing what >>they mean, understanding them. Living them is even more difficult. I >>have failed somewhat in this unkind mail but am prepared to live >>and/or die with the consequences of my actions and without excuses or >>justification. I hope all those upholding life with one hand and >>activily participating in or concurring with the dealing out of death >>with the other are just as ready. Blue or red or whatever shade. >> >>Happy Happy, >> >>Gustl >> > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > >   ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Kirk McLoren]

But a snail trumps a person?
Too simply I think.
 
-Kbob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Nancy Canning wrote:> I agree with you Gustl. Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who > will uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance > and right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child > is of no value and has no right to life.If by this statement you mean that others have should control of womens reproductive organs in particular or their health care in general, I can't disagree with you more. That means quite simply a person trumps a fetus.-- Bob Allenhttp://ozarker.org/bob"Science is what we have learned about how to keepfrom fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman___Biofuel mailing
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[Biofuel] more encouraging solar news

[capt3d]

 





Cost Competitive Electricity from Photovoltaic Concentrators Called 'Imminent'
Wednesday, July 13, 2005
Golden, Colo. ? Solar concentrators using highly efficient photovoltaic solar cells will reduce the cost of electricity from sunlight to competitive levels soon, attendees were told at a recent international conference on the subject. Herb Hayden of Arizona Public Service (APS) and Robert McConnell and Martha Symko-Davies of the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) organized the conference held May 1-5 in Scottsdale, Ariz.
"Concentrating solar electric power is on the cusp of delivering on its promise of low-cost, reliable, solar-generated electricity at a cost that is competitive with mainstream electric generation systems," said Vahan Garboushian, president of Amonix, Inc. of Torrance, Calif. "With the advent of multijunction solar cells, PV concentrator power generation at $3 per watt is imminent in the coming few years," he added.
We have seen steady progress in photovoltaic concentrator technology. We are working with advanced multijunction PV cells that are approaching 38% efficiency, and even higher is possible over time. Our goal is to install PV concentrator systems at $3 per watt, which can happen soon at production rates of 10 megawatts per year. Once that happens, higher volumes are readily achieved," Hayden, Solar Program Coordinator at APS, said.
Growth in the photovoltaic (PV) concentrator business was reflected in the conference attendance, three times that of the 2003 version. This rapid growth was attributed to recent PV concentrator installations and sales forecasts along with excitement created by new solar cell efficiencies approaching 40%. At the conference, NREL announced a new record efficiency of 37.9 percent at 10 suns, a measure of concentrated sunlight. Soon thereafter Boeing-Spectrolab, under contract to NREL and the Department of Energy, surpassed the NREL record with 39.0 percent at 236 suns announced at the European photovoltaic conference in Barcelona, Spain. The efficiency of a solar cell is the percentage of the sun's energy the device converts to electricity.
Photovoltaic (PV) concentrator units are much different than the flat photovoltaic modules sold around the world; almost 1,200 megawatts of flat PV modules were sold last year. PV concentrators come in larger module sizes, typically 20 kilowatts to 35 kilowatts each, they track the sun during the day and they are more suitable for large utility installations.
Another highlight of the conference was the announcement by Amonix Inc. of a joint venture with Spain's Guascor which will build a 10-megawatt per year assembly plant in Spain by the end of 2005. Amonix also plans to install 3 megawatts of PV concentrator systems in the southwestern U.S. while Guascor plans to install 10 megawatts of concentrator PV systems in Spain in 2006.
Solar Systems of Australia announced plans to install more than 5 megawatts of PV concentrator systems in 2006. "Solar Systems' experience gained from installing and operating reliable PV concentrator systems over the last decade combined with its strong relationship with Spectrolab Inc., a leading manufacturer of multijunction solar cells, is poised to make a major step towards being a mainstream power producer," said Dave Holland, CEO of Solar Systems Australia. "The new solar cell technology from Spectrolab will enable us to upgrade our systems from 24 kilowatts to 35 kilowatts, a 46 percent increase in output," he added.
The ultra-high efficiency solar cell technology, initially discovered at NREL and successfully developed for space satellites in the 1990s by Boeing-Spectrolab Inc., in Sylmar, Calif., proves to be enabling for low-cost terrestrial SEC systems. "Today, we are capitalizing on the major investments made by the space satellite industry and reducing the cost of the semiconductor solar cell by two to three orders of magnitude by operating the cells under high sun concentrations, typically 300 to 1000 times. Boeing-Spectrolab and NREL have demonstrated over 37 percent efficient concentrator solar cells and field testing of Spectrolab's cells for over one year with no degradation promise a bright future. We expect concentrator solar cell performance to reach or exceed 40 percent by 2006 and anticipate continued enhancement in performance and reliability," said Dr. Nasser Karam, vice president of Advanced Technology Products at Spectrolab Inc. "We are working closely with PV concentrator manufacturers to ensure their success and expedient deployment of the multijunction PV concentrator cells" said Dr. Raed Sherif, director of PV concentrator products, at Spectrolab.
The U.S. Department of Energy, through NREL and its High Performance Photovoltaic Project, funds many of the U.S. research efforts reported at the conference.
NREL is the U.S. Department of Energy's primary national laboratory for renewable energy and energy efficiency res

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Appal Energy]

OK, is this all just wry humor or sarcasm?


Alrighty then Diesel Bill,

Take a lot of this with a grain of salt..., the same way many who read your 
intial remark took yours.


I do detect arrogance, condescension, religious
and political pride (a negative).


Uhh. Ain't that akin to the pot callin' the kettle black? (Please refer 
to your original comments about religion, equally laden with American and 
redneck pride.)

This is an international list, one which doesn't exactly cotton too 
highly to arrogants of any stripe, no matter if they're US southerners, 
Afrikaner apartheidists, Hasidic zealots, or any of a thousand other 
affiliations that would rather be identified by a label rather than any 
humanitarian pursuits.


Were you to ask, some would say (predicated upon your first response) 
that either you've got too much starch in your trousers or your blue 
collar is two sizes too small and buttoned down tight. That must be 
where the patriotism comes in, red neck, blue lips from insufficient 
oxygen to the brain and pale skin (?)..., you know...,  red, white and blue.


Just remember that the human species possesses two types of taste buds. 
What may be in "poor taste" to you quite probably is preferred by an 
equal number (maybe more) of your fellow humans.


Or, to paraphrase and put it mildly, as so many heretics have noted 
throughout the millenia, "You are not the center of my universe," or 
even your own for that matter.


One surely does hope that's accurate and truthful enough communication. 
Nothing intentionally maligning. Just a frank "How do you do."


Todd Swearingen



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

OK, is this all just wry humor or sarcasm? Otherwise, I do detect 
arrogance, condescension, religious and political pride (a negative).


This written language is so poor in expressing true intent, especially 
if the writer is masking or hiding true feeling behind clever language.


Let us try to communicate more truthfully and accurately.

Diesel Bill
 





Lol, n1 Mike

 


J

 




*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Michael 
Redler

*Sent:* 01 August 2005 13:30
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

 


In poor taste?

Maybe. I liked it anyway just because it's different from what I'm 
used to hearing.


 


Mean spirited?

Doubtful. Listen to Rush if you want to hear mean spirited and poor taste.

 


"God must love you better." and "In God we Trust"

 

This must be confusing to some atheists. Pagans just think your 
missing an "s". As for agnostics, well, you might have to clarify 
exactly which God they need to trust because they're really not sure.


 

Finally, what's a red neck? That is to say, is it people with a red 
neck? I have a sun burn on my neck from working outside so, I must be 
one. But, I don't feel like it has caused a major shift in my ideology 
and I haven't experienced any discrimination even though people have 
pointed it out on several occasions. More importantly, what 
makes "God" love "red necks" less?  

 


:-)

 


Mike


*/Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

Ya know I still have to run across evidence that the Redneck
faithful any
less cafeteria Christians, Jews and Muslims than the faithful
residing in
the blue states are.
Doug, N0LKK

- Original Message -
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country



In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better

than

us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We Trust".









I second that emotion...Proud to be a liberal from a BLUE

STATEDB with BD




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[bob allen]

Nancy Canning wrote:
I agree with you Gustl.  Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who 
will uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance 
and right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child 
is of no value and has no right to life.


If by this statement you mean that others have should control of womens 
reproductive organs in  particular or their health care in general, I 
can't disagree with you more. That means quite simply a person trumps a 
fetus.








--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

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[Biofuel] Keegan vs. von Clausewitz: war is not a worthwhile instrument of national policy

[Michael Redler]

 
I live in New Haven and although I'm not a student there, I sometimes can get access to presentations at Yale through a friend of a friend.
 
In 2002, I went to a teach-in where a panel of Yale professors fielded questions about the war. One of the panelists was John Keegan, a well known military historian. I was shocked when he talked about what he called the "oil ogre", always showing up to be the cause of wars. Because of that comment, I chose not to pay too much attention to him (I'm sure he's not too upset about that).
 
Ironically (to me), he recently responded to statements made by von Clausewitz (1780–1831) who said that "War is nothing but a continuation of politics by other means". 
 
Keegan's response was that war has lost its usefulness. "He argues that as an instrument of policy, it suffers from 'chronic indecisiveness'; wars do not resolve policy dilemmas. For him, war today cannot be a continuation of policy, it is the 'bankruptcy' of policy".
http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/Keegan/ByrneArt.htm
 
In this case, it seems as though we are living in a time where this statement is proving to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt.
The article continues with "Fundamentally Keegan would like war between nation-states to disappear; policies which lead to war are a "poisonous intoxication". Since war-making is ineffective, he holds that it cannot have a rational goal."
In my opinion, this is a perspective not usually seen by antiwar activists because it addresses war strictly in terms of it's usefulness in world politics. It's cold and insensitive to the pain and suffering and directly attacks the only remaining argument for war (as it is discussed behind closed doors).
I found it to be a good read.
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Re: [Biofuel] Phenolphthalein solution

[Thomas Kelly]

Those prices for phenolphthalein are high.
500ml  1% in 70% Alcohol @ $69.24!!!

Try
Science Kit (www.sciencekit.com)
500ml 1% phenolphthalein in alcohol  $5.70
Item # 95115-06

Flinn Scientific  (www.flinnsci.com)
500ml 1% phenophthalein in alcohol  $5.80
Item # P0020

I am not associated with either company. I am a recently retired science
teacher and have purchased materials over the years from both.
   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Probst, Peter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:08 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Phenolphthalein solution



Greetings,
I'm collecting the various tools to perform a titration of WVO and see
there are several types of phenolphthalein solutions available.  Is there
a certain solution that works better than others? Should I get the most
economical? Thanks in advance for your help,
Pete

Some options for purchase at sciencelab.com:

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.08% Solution in Methanol ($48.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.5% Solution in 50% Isopropanol ($53.48/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 2% Solution in 95% Ethanol ($114.84/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 3% Solution in 95% Alcohol ($119.76/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein TS ($37.09/500 ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 50% Alcohol 
($58.48/500ml)


-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Solution in Ethyl Alcohol ($117.00/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 70% Alcohol 
($69.24/500ml)


-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 95% Isopropyl Alcohol
($107.84/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, Powder, Reagent, ACS ($48.24/25g)




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Brian Rodgers]

uphold and fight for some snails life, being of
great importance and right to live, yet believe it is okay to kill
babies.
I would have to say "I disagree!"  the Netiqutte rules govern my
language. There is a massive over population problem on this planet and
it is not the snails. Nuff said?
Brian Rodgers



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RE: [Biofuel] Phenolphthalein solution

Hi all 

I got 16oz of 1% (95% Isopropyl) for $16 here in California. 
This is probability 100X more than I could ever use. 

I would happy give 1/2 it to "Needy" people if they can cover the cost
of shipping and bottling. 

I don't know if I can mail Isopropyl through the US postal system. 

Does anyone know what the USPS policy/rules is regarding Isopropyl
(flammable liquids) ?
I assume there is exception for small qty's, say under 1oz. 

Mark 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Probst, Peter
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 9:09 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Phenolphthalein solution


Greetings,
I'm collecting the various tools to perform a titration of WVO and see
there are several types of phenolphthalein solutions available.  Is
there a certain solution that works better than others? Should I get the
most economical? Thanks in advance for your help, Pete

Some options for purchase at sciencelab.com:

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.08% Solution in Methanol ($48.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.5% Solution in 50% Isopropanol ($53.48/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 2% Solution in 95% Ethanol ($114.84/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 3% Solution in 95% Alcohol ($119.76/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein TS ($37.09/500 ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 50% Alcohol
($58.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Solution in Ethyl Alcohol ($117.00/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 70% Alcohol
($69.24/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 95% Isopropyl Alcohol
($107.84/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, Powder, Reagent, ACS ($48.24/25g)




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Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Nancy,

I  can't  disagree.  Murder, war, abortion, capital punishment are all
on  the  same  level  with  different types of justifications for each
depending  on  situation,  etc.   But  then, as I have said, only that
which  is wrong requires justification.  What is true and right stands
on its own.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Monday, 01 August, 2005, 13:45:13, you wrote:

NC> I agree with you Gustl.  Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who 
will 
NC> uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance and right 
NC> to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child is of no 
NC> value and has no right to life.
NC> - Original Message - 
NC> From: "des" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
NC> To: 
NC> Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:56 AM
NC> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


>> Thank you!  That was the first message in this thread I found worth saving 
>> for future reference.  Too much out there, (government, business and 
>> religion) has propagated the illusion of separation, competition and 
>> isolation...  We could easily forget that we do all come from the same 
>> Source, sad to say though, that when mankind tries to give that Source a 
>> name, religion develops, and separation of our unity follows.
>>
>> doug swanson
>>
>>
>>
>> Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:
>>
>>>Hallo Whomever,
>>>
>>>Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote:
>>>
>>>Wwrc> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better 
>>>than Wwrc> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We 
>>>Trust".
>>>
>>>"In  poor  taste.  Maybe even mean spirited."?  I assume that you have
>>>NEVER  listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then?  Jerry Falwell?  Pat
>>>Robertson?
...snip for bandwidth...
-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re: [Biofuel] Phenolphthalein solution

[des]

Probst, Peter wrote:


Greetings,
I'm collecting the various tools to perform a titration of WVO and see
there are several types of phenolphthalein solutions available.  Is there
a certain solution that works better than others? Should I get the most
economical? Thanks in advance for your help,
Pete
 



HomeScienceTools sells smaller quantities, liquid or dry.  Unless you're 
doing a large number of batches, I'd suspect that dry would suit your 
purpose best, as the stuff will decompose over time, and is more stable 
in its dry state.


Try this URL:
http://www.hometrainingtools.com/catalog/chemistry/chemicals/cat_chemicals-m-p.html

bottom of the first page is their Phenolphthalein...  5g for $3.00.  
Although I have no financial interest in this company, their fast 
service, variety of useful tools, and decent prices urge me to recommend 
them to you.


doug swanson



Some options for purchase at sciencelab.com:

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.08% Solution in Methanol ($48.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.5% Solution in 50% Isopropanol ($53.48/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 2% Solution in 95% Ethanol ($114.84/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 3% Solution in 95% Alcohol ($119.76/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein TS ($37.09/500 ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 50% Alcohol ($58.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Solution in Ethyl Alcohol ($117.00/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 70% Alcohol ($69.24/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 95% Isopropyl Alcohol
($107.84/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, Powder, Reagent, ACS ($48.24/25g)




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Re: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Michael Redler]

Bill,
 
There are seemingly countless ways to express ones opinion and depending on the discussion, wry humor can work very well. However, I was sincere when I said that I enjoyed the change of pace from the liberal bashing I'm so used to. I was also sincere about my advice to listen to Rush if one wants to know what "mean spirited" and "poor taste" sounds like.
 
As for the God references, I've lost and gained my faith twice. So, I know my comments for at least two of the categories I mentioned come from personal experience. In general, statements made by people who assume that everyone they run into is a faithful Christian, is offensive - even to other mindful Christians. 
 
If someone is going to take a stab at someone else, while assuming that they follow a certain religious belief, the accuser immediately reveals a bias. When one accuses another of mistreating another individual or group of individuals (i.e. Red Necks) without seeing any sign of that accusation from the accuser, it reveals a bias.
 
Comparing apples to apples, I responded directly to statements made in an earlier post. You were supposed to detect arrogance, condescension and religious and political pride because it was meant to underscore and be a direct reflection of the original post. Your detection of those attributes means that the message was received but not understood. There is nothing hidden and I could find no better way to express myself more truthfully and accurately.
 
Mike
 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, is this all just wry humor or sarcasm? Otherwise, I do detect arrogance, condescension, religious and political pride (a negative).This written language is so poor in expressing true intent, especially if the writer is masking or hiding true feeling behind clever language.Let us try to communicate more truthfully and accurately.Diesel Bill




Lol, n1 Mike
 
J
 




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael RedlerSent: 01 August 2005 13:30To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country
 



In poor taste?

Maybe. I liked it anyway just because it's different from what I'm used to hearing.

 

Mean spirited?

Doubtful. Listen to Rush if you want to hear mean spirited and poor taste.

 

"God must love you better." and "In God we Trust"

 

This must be confusing to some atheists. Pagans just think your missing an "s". As for agnostics, well, you might have to clarify exactly which God they need to trust because they're really not sure.

 

Finally, what's a red neck? That is to say, is it people with a red neck? I have a sun burn on my neck from working outside so, I must be one. But, I don't feel like it has caused a major shift in my ideology and I haven't experienced any discrimination even though people have pointed it out on several occasions. More importantly, what makes "God" love "red necks" less?  

 

:-)

 

Mike

Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ya know I still have to run across evidence that the Redneck faithful anyless cafeteria Christians, Jews and Muslims than the faithful residing inthe blue states are.Doug, N0LKK- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:03 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We Trust".>> I second that emotion...Proud to be a liberal from a BLUESTATEDB with
 BD___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Keith Addison]

Hello Diesel Bill


OK, is this all just wry humor or sarcasm? Otherwise, I do detect
arrogance, condescension, religious and political pride (a negative).


In the eye of the beholder perhaps. What do other beholders see in 
you, do you think?



This written language is so poor in expressing true intent, especially
if the writer is masking or hiding true feeling behind clever language.

Let us try to communicate more truthfully and accurately.


Who is it that you are saying has communicated untruthfully or 
inaccurately? Answer the question please. Quote what is untruthful or 
inaccurate and say why it is untruthful or inaccurate. No woolly 
opinionations, you're talking of truth and accuracy so supply facts 
and sources to support your claims.


Don't make vague insinuations here, if you have something to say then 
spell it out or don't say it - especially when wagging your finger at 
others for being less than honest. Prove it or apologise.


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner




Diesel Bill

Lol, n1 Mike



J




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael 
Redler

Sent: 01 August 2005 13:30
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country



In poor taste?

Maybe. I liked it anyway just because it's different from what I'm 
used to hearing.




Mean spirited?

Doubtful. Listen to Rush if you want to hear mean spirited and poor taste.



"God must love you better." and "In God we Trust"



This must be confusing to some atheists. Pagans just think your 
missing an "s". As for agnostics, well, you might have to clarify 
exactly which God they need to trust because they're really not sure.




Finally, what's a red neck? That is to say, is it people with a red 
neck? I have a sun burn on my neck from working outside so, I must 
be one. But, I don't feel like it has caused a major shift in my 
ideology and I haven't experienced any discrimination even though 
people have pointed it out on several occasions. More importantly, 
what makes "God" love "red necks" less?




:-)



Mike


Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ya know I still have to run across evidence that the Redneck faithful any
less cafeteria Christians, Jews and Muslims than the faithful residing in
the blue states are.
Doug, N0LKK

- Original Message -
From:
To:
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than
> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We Trust".
>






> I second that emotion...Proud to be a liberal from a BLUE
STATEDB with BD



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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Nancy Canning]

I agree with you Gustl.  Yet, I am amazed and the quanity of people who will 
uphold and fight for some snails life, being of great importance and right 
to live, yet believe it is okay to kill babies. That the Child is of no 
value and has no right to life.
- Original Message - 
From: "des" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


Thank you!  That was the first message in this thread I found worth saving 
for future reference.  Too much out there, (government, business and 
religion) has propagated the illusion of separation, competition and 
isolation...  We could easily forget that we do all come from the same 
Source, sad to say though, that when mankind tries to give that Source a 
name, religion develops, and separation of our unity follows.


doug swanson



Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:


Hallo Whomever,

Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote:

Wwrc> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better 
than Wwrc> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We 
Trust".


"In  poor  taste.  Maybe even mean spirited."?  I assume that you have
NEVER  listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then?  Jerry Falwell?  Pat
Robertson?

"In  GOD  We  Trust"?  The  qualifier "Somewhat" does not appear there
between  "We"  and  "Trust". Those trusting in God are those rejecting
the  ways  of the world and following the ways of the Lord. That would
be  those  in  peace churches and not involving themselves in national
politics  and  perhaps  not even state politics. I assume you mean "In
the  bible  we  trust" instead, with the caveat of your own particular
interpretations  of  that  and  including the old testament which has,
according  to  virtually  all  biblical scholars of the Christian bent
been fulfilled and the jots and tittles have been changed.

It  is  very  interesting  watching the contortions of the theologians
trying  to make the black words in the bible match up to the red words
when  they flatly contradict them in so many cases. If they trusted in
God  they would have the ability to get to their knowledge without the
aid  of  such  an inadequate medium as the written word.  It is not so
interesting  watching  them  pulling  verses  or partial verses out of
context and trying to warp them to their own particular beliefs.  They
would  rather  define  truth  to match their own limited understanding
rather than take the trouble to bring their understanding in line with
truth.  Makes one ill.

I  generally  attempt  to be more kind in my observations but I really
get   weary  watching  people serving two masters while claiming to be
serving  only  one.   That  which  is  good, right and true speaks for
itself  and  the  rest  requires  justification.   There  are a lot of
"Christians"  who are going to be justifying their heads off and a lot
who  don't  call themselves Christian who won't need to do so.  Law vs
Spirit.  There are a lot of folks out there who may have read but have
either forgotten or do not understand MT 25:12, LK 13:25, LK 13:27 and
JN  5:42.   Perhaps  they  just think claiming to believe something is
tautologous  with  demonstrating  the  fruits  of the belief.  Fruits?
GAL  5:22.   You  won't find a lot of those fruits in politics whether
left, right or center.

Before I forget:  MT 7:3-5

There is a great difference between reading the words and knowing what
they  mean,  understanding them. Living them is even more difficult. I
have   failed  somewhat  in  this  unkind mail but am prepared to live
and/or  die with the consequences of my actions and without excuses or
justification.   I  hope  all  those  upholding life with one hand and
activily  participating in or concurring with the dealing out of death
with the other are just as ready.  Blue or red or whatever shade.

Happy Happy,

Gustl




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Re: RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[WCOTE]

OK, is this all just wry humor or sarcasm? Otherwise, I do detect 
arrogance, condescension, religious and political pride (a negative).

This written language is so poor in expressing true intent, especially 
if the writer is masking or hiding true feeling behind clever language.

Let us try to communicate more truthfully and accurately.

Diesel Bill








Lol, n1 Mike

 

J

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Michael Redler
Sent: 01 August 2005 13:30
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New
Blue States/Country



 







In poor taste?





Maybe. I liked it anyway just because it's different from what I'm used
to hearing.





 





Mean spirited?





Doubtful. Listen to Rush if you want to hear mean spirited and poor
taste.





 





"God must love you better." and "In God we Trust"





 





This must be confusing to some atheists. Pagans just think your
missing an "s". As for agnostics, well, you might have to clarify
exactly which God they need to trust because they're really not sure.





 





Finally, what's a red neck? That is to say, is it people with a red
neck? I have a sun burn on my neck from working outside so, I must be one. But,
I don't feel like it has caused a major shift in my ideology and I haven't
experienced any discrimination even though people have pointed it out on
several occasions. More importantly, what makes "God" love
"red necks" less?  





 





:-)





 





Mike






Doug Younker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:





Ya know I still have to
run across evidence that the Redneck faithful any
less cafeteria Christians, Jews and Muslims than the faithful residing in
the blue states are.
Doug, N0LKK

- Original Message - 
From: 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than
> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We
Trust".
>






> I second that emotion...Proud to be a liberal from a BLUE
STATEDB with BD















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[Biofuel] ethanol from wood please compliment

[Brian Rodgers]

  Hi Brian,
You are fortunate to have walking encyclopedia in your dad. Nurture him
well.

Thank you too Manick. Yes, my Dad stills gets around on the ranch. We
are grateful that his health is holding and truth is I am kind of
hoping that I look that good when and if I live to be 87 years old. 
pressurised SO3 being a gas would mix better
than LIQUID, without heavy milling machine.
Great now you are really going where I want to go.
In Las Vegas NM
(where our
PC repair shop is) last week I talked to an environmentalist at Highlands University
who is among other things, working on a big problem here in the SW USA, an over abundance of small diameter
trees choking the
forest and creating a wildfire hazard like never before. 
He was saying that USDA Forests Products
Laboratory has an
ultra expensive portable device capable of using forest waste products,
like
wood chips to convert it to some type of fuel. Sorry to be so vague but
as
soon as I heard the price tag of this magic box I barely gave it
another thought.
What I passionately believe is regular people need workable methods
(within their
means) to produce at least some part of their own fuel.


 Thanks very much for "been
there done that" compliment. It will
keep me going in good spirit.
This is a very important point. "going in good spirit." This is
almost as
important to me as the final results of whatever process I decide to
experiment with. I am not talking about looking up exercise on the
Internet as
a viable process to lose weight. We do need to research what we are
going to
try and nobody that I am aware is capable of producing energy with less
than
fantastic enthusiasm. How do we get this “ENTHUSIASM?”  This
is the main reason I joined this group
and I want to thank everyone for giving me back some of my enthusiasm. 
 
Right now I am in the process of building a brand
new
workshop at the ranch. It would be easy to lose sight of my goal as I
toil away
digging ditches and building concrete foundations. In the end I know I
will again be able to design, experiment and build my own energy saving
and energy
creating devices at my home for my home and cars.

I have prepared creosote and
wood tars as rubber
plasticizers, giving excellent energy damping properties. This I did by
cooking by slow pyrolysis of the wood up to 500C in a drum fitted with
condenser. Products: charcoal (30%), tar (7%), acetic acid
(6%),methanol (1.5%), wood gas ( 25%), the rest being water. The tar
dissoles in caustic soda NaOH and is easily applied to wood for
protection against termites. Acetic acid can be recovered from water
phase by proper solvent and distllation. Methanol is easily separated
from water phase by fractional ditillation. It is like ethanol in
properties and could be used as auto fuel. Although I worked with
Malaysian hardwoods there is plenty of similar data/literature on
softwoods like pine. I think you can definitely put these ideas to work
Brian. Good luck!

 
I definitely want to try some of these things. One
in
particular is the gasification of wood. I recently seeded a group at
our local
Tech school with information from the Journey to Forever web site. The
students
were amazed that a car or tractor can be run from a wood fire! One
group
started a club called alternative fuel vehicles. It is very encouraging
to see
the youth of my town take an interest in these topics. While I attended
the
local university working on my degree in electronics I designed the
accelerator
electronics for the school’s electric car experiment, this was back in
the
eighties. Boy they have come a long ways in going back to old tech. LOL
   
Sincerely,
Brian Rodgers




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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Brian Rodgers]

Yes yes yes
I agree as well,  this message I missed because I read a few other
messages in this thread and was not encouraged, this one is better.
Positive and spiritual.
 Thank you 
Brian Rodgers



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[Biofuel] problems with wash

[Thomas Kelly]

Help me please  my story is a long 
one.
 
My 
1st attempt at making biodiesel was a 2 L. test batch using virgin corn 
oil. Shake test came out OK; bubble washed - produced clear golden 
biodiesel.
    Repeat 
using 2L fryer oil > honey amber biodiesel.
 
   I then did two 
separate 15 L batches in a closed container, using pump agitation at 125 F for 
40 minutes. There was a clear separation of "biodiesel" and glycerine cocktail 
within minutes, I let it settle overnight. I put equal amounts of 
"biodiesel" and water in a bottle and shook it up. Got clear separation within 
15 minutes - this I took to be a good sign There was only a very thin film 
(soap?) between the biodiesel and the water, so I proceeded to wash the 
biodiesel.
 I used the same pump and 
hoses after flushing them out with hot water to remove any glycerine residue. 
Since I didn't have any large containers at the time, I kept the two batches 
separate  doing separate washes. I pump-washed using 5 L of well water that 
had been warmed to about 80 F. All seemed to go 
well ... the water and biodiesel began to separate within minutes. I let it 
settle for 3 hours and then drained off the water. After three washes with 
fresh, clear water, the wash water was still milky. Growing impatient, I washed 
one of the batches with equal volume of water and biodiesel and got an 
emulsion. I broke the emulsion using vinegar. I heated the biodiesel to about 
125 F and additional water "fell out".  I drained off the water 
allowing some of the biodiesel to come through. The water and biodiesel were 
both clear and there was no soap whatsoever. I performed a shake test on 
the biodiesel ---> water clear, no soap.
  While this was going 
on I had washed the second batch using 5 L. of warmed well water as I 
had done for the first 3 washed no emulsion, but the wash water still 
was milky. 
  After recovering the 
biodiesel from the emulsion I washed it  (5th time) using 5 L. of clean, 
warmed well water > no emulsion, but still milky wash water. 

 
Finally a question: The emulsion ... Is this why 
directions call for 1/4  -  1/2 volume of water to Biodiesel during 
each wash? (Larger volumes of water cause problems?)
 
 Tired of washing two 
separate batches, I visited my town's scrap metal pile and got a water 
heater that I rigged up as a wash tank. I combined the two batches and during 
the past two days I have washed the biodiesel 3 more times using 12 L of warmed, 
clean well water and letting the water settle for 10 or more hours each time. 
This morning ... still milky.
  Each time I drain 
the wash water a small amount of biodiesel comes out. I recovered the biosiesel 
and after heating it to remove water, It is crystal clear and honey colored. 

  I have attempted to 
determine pH of the biodiesel as follows: Dissolved biodiesel in isopropanol, 
add water, shake vigorously. Wide range pH paper changed color .. to pH of 
7.
Of course, I did add vinegar to one of the batches 
and this probably neutralized impurities. the wash water is still milky - 
not murky or cloudy.
  I am at a point 
where I'm not sure that I am thinking clearly and could use advise. 

Are the problems in the 
wash telling me that my production was faulty or is there something wrong with 
the wash itself?
 Note: My titatration came 
out to be just 2.1 g lye/liter of oil. I thought that was low, so I repeated it 
twice more using fresh, 99% pure NaOH (1 g/L distilled water).
 (2.1g/L  +  
3.5g/L )  X  15L/batch
 I used 3L of fresh 
methanol/15L batch (from a drum of methanol that was opened only the day 
before).
 Temp during reaction was 
monitored by a automobile temp gauge.
    What am I doing 
wrong?
    What do I do now? Will the wash 
water ever come out clear?
 I apologize for the 
long-winded account. If you have gotten this far I thank you and admire your 
patience and endurance. 
    Thoughts are 
appreciated 
 
Tom
 

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[Biofuel] Phenolphthalein solution

[Probst, Peter]

Greetings,
I'm collecting the various tools to perform a titration of WVO and see
there are several types of phenolphthalein solutions available.  Is there
a certain solution that works better than others? Should I get the most
economical? Thanks in advance for your help,
Pete

Some options for purchase at sciencelab.com:

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.08% Solution in Methanol ($48.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 0.5% Solution in 50% Isopropanol ($53.48/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 2% Solution in 95% Ethanol ($114.84/L)

-Phenolphthalein Indicator, 3% Solution in 95% Alcohol ($119.76/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein TS ($37.09/500 ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 50% Alcohol ($58.48/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 0.5% (w/v) Solution in Ethyl Alcohol ($117.00/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 70% Alcohol ($69.24/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, 1% (w/v) Indicator Solution in 95% Isopropyl Alcohol
($107.84/500ml)

-Phenolphthalein, Powder, Reagent, ACS ($48.24/25g)




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RE: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[malcolm maclure]

Lol, n1 Mike

 

J

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Michael Redler
Sent: 01 August 2005 13:30
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New
Blue States/Country



 







In poor taste?





Maybe. I liked it anyway just because it's different from what I'm used
to hearing.





 





Mean spirited?





Doubtful. Listen to Rush if you want to hear mean spirited and poor
taste.





 





"God must love you better." and "In God we Trust"





 





This must be confusing to some atheists. Pagans just think your
missing an "s". As for agnostics, well, you might have to clarify
exactly which God they need to trust because they're really not sure.





 





Finally, what's a red neck? That is to say, is it people with a red
neck? I have a sun burn on my neck from working outside so, I must be one. But,
I don't feel like it has caused a major shift in my ideology and I haven't
experienced any discrimination even though people have pointed it out on
several occasions. More importantly, what makes "God" love
"red necks" less?  





 





:-)





 





Mike






Doug Younker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:





Ya know I still have to
run across evidence that the Redneck faithful any
less cafeteria Christians, Jews and Muslims than the faithful residing in
the blue states are.
Doug, N0LKK

- Original Message - 
From: 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country


> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than
> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We
Trust".
>






> I second that emotion...Proud to be a liberal from a BLUE
STATEDB with BD















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Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[des]

Thank you!  That was the first message in this thread I found worth 
saving for future reference.  Too much out there, (government, business 
and religion) has propagated the illusion of separation, competition and 
isolation...  We could easily forget that we do all come from the same 
Source, sad to say though, that when mankind tries to give that Source a 
name, religion develops, and separation of our unity follows.


doug swanson



Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:


Hallo Whomever,

Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote:

Wwrc> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than 
Wwrc> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We Trust".


"In  poor  taste.  Maybe even mean spirited."?  I assume that you have
NEVER  listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then?  Jerry Falwell?  Pat
Robertson?

"In  GOD  We  Trust"?  The  qualifier "Somewhat" does not appear there
between  "We"  and  "Trust". Those trusting in God are those rejecting
the  ways  of the world and following the ways of the Lord. That would
be  those  in  peace churches and not involving themselves in national
politics  and  perhaps  not even state politics. I assume you mean "In
the  bible  we  trust" instead, with the caveat of your own particular
interpretations  of  that  and  including the old testament which has,
according  to  virtually  all  biblical scholars of the Christian bent
been fulfilled and the jots and tittles have been changed.

It  is  very  interesting  watching the contortions of the theologians
trying  to make the black words in the bible match up to the red words
when  they flatly contradict them in so many cases. If they trusted in
God  they would have the ability to get to their knowledge without the
aid  of  such  an inadequate medium as the written word.  It is not so
interesting  watching  them  pulling  verses  or partial verses out of
context and trying to warp them to their own particular beliefs.  They
would  rather  define  truth  to match their own limited understanding
rather than take the trouble to bring their understanding in line with
truth.  Makes one ill.

I  generally  attempt  to be more kind in my observations but I really
get   weary  watching  people serving two masters while claiming to be
serving  only  one.   That  which  is  good, right and true speaks for
itself  and  the  rest  requires  justification.   There  are a lot of
"Christians"  who are going to be justifying their heads off and a lot
who  don't  call themselves Christian who won't need to do so.  Law vs
Spirit.  There are a lot of folks out there who may have read but have
either forgotten or do not understand MT 25:12, LK 13:25, LK 13:27 and
JN  5:42.   Perhaps  they  just think claiming to believe something is
tautologous  with  demonstrating  the  fruits  of the belief.  Fruits?
GAL  5:22.   You  won't find a lot of those fruits in politics whether
left, right or center.

Before I forget:  MT 7:3-5

There is a great difference between reading the words and knowing what
they  mean,  understanding them. Living them is even more difficult. I
have   failed  somewhat  in  this  unkind mail but am prepared to live
and/or  die with the consequences of my actions and without excuses or
justification.   I  hope  all  those  upholding life with one hand and
activily  participating in or concurring with the dealing out of death
with the other are just as ready.  Blue or red or whatever shade.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
 




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Re[2]: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Whomever,

Sunday, 31 July, 2005, 18:03:48, you wrote:

Wwrc> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than 
Wwrc> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We Trust".

"In  poor  taste.  Maybe even mean spirited."?  I assume that you have
NEVER  listened to Rush Limbaugh or his ilk then?  Jerry Falwell?  Pat
Robertson?

"In  GOD  We  Trust"?  The  qualifier "Somewhat" does not appear there
between  "We"  and  "Trust". Those trusting in God are those rejecting
the  ways  of the world and following the ways of the Lord. That would
be  those  in  peace churches and not involving themselves in national
politics  and  perhaps  not even state politics. I assume you mean "In
the  bible  we  trust" instead, with the caveat of your own particular
interpretations  of  that  and  including the old testament which has,
according  to  virtually  all  biblical scholars of the Christian bent
been fulfilled and the jots and tittles have been changed.

It  is  very  interesting  watching the contortions of the theologians
trying  to make the black words in the bible match up to the red words
when  they flatly contradict them in so many cases. If they trusted in
God  they would have the ability to get to their knowledge without the
aid  of  such  an inadequate medium as the written word.  It is not so
interesting  watching  them  pulling  verses  or partial verses out of
context and trying to warp them to their own particular beliefs.  They
would  rather  define  truth  to match their own limited understanding
rather than take the trouble to bring their understanding in line with
truth.  Makes one ill.

I  generally  attempt  to be more kind in my observations but I really
get   weary  watching  people serving two masters while claiming to be
serving  only  one.   That  which  is  good, right and true speaks for
itself  and  the  rest  requires  justification.   There  are a lot of
"Christians"  who are going to be justifying their heads off and a lot
who  don't  call themselves Christian who won't need to do so.  Law vs
Spirit.  There are a lot of folks out there who may have read but have
either forgotten or do not understand MT 25:12, LK 13:25, LK 13:27 and
JN  5:42.   Perhaps  they  just think claiming to believe something is
tautologous  with  demonstrating  the  fruits  of the belief.  Fruits?
GAL  5:22.   You  won't find a lot of those fruits in politics whether
left, right or center.

Before I forget:  MT 7:3-5

There is a great difference between reading the words and knowing what
they  mean,  understanding them. Living them is even more difficult. I
have   failed  somewhat  in  this  unkind mail but am prepared to live
and/or  die with the consequences of my actions and without excuses or
justification.   I  hope  all  those  upholding life with one hand and
activily  participating in or concurring with the dealing out of death
with the other are just as ready.  Blue or red or whatever shade.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re: [Biofuel] The rise of Corporate Power and the disabling of democracy

[Pannirselvam P.V]

  Helo  Keith 

  The present political crises and  corruption in recent turbulence in
Brazil  is  certainly due to  the lobby , the big buisness , The
Corporate banking system  where rich is becoming richer , the poor
much poor  trying to disable the democracy  and sustainable
developements .The topic is  more relevant for us  here too in our
forum

Thanking you Keith

Yours truely
Pannirselvam




On 7/29/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fwd from Lion Kuntz at Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion
> Group (SANET):
> 
> >While looking up something about Tom Scott, in 1877 the
> >president of the biggest corporation in the world who went to
> >war with John D. Rockefeller and lost, I found a link.
> >
> >This link led to a chapter of a book online, which had good
> >information, and confirmed facts from a number of other sources.
> >However, I noticed that the host site offered the electronic
> >version of the book for free download in PDF format.
> >
> >If anybody would like to save themselves twenty-five smackers,
> >this book is offered by arrangement of the author and the
> >publisher. It is not some pirate copy.
> >
> >http://gangsofamerica.com/index.html
> >
> >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> >Sincerely, Lion Kuntz
> >Santa Rosa, California, USA
> 
> Download for free:
> http://gangsofamerica.com/read.html
> 
> http://gangsofamerica.com/index.html
> Gangs of America by Ted Nace - the rise of Corporate Power and the
> disabling of democracy
> 
> Corporations are the dominant force in modern life, surpassing even
> church and state. The largest are richer than entire nations, and
> courts have given these entities more rights than people. To many
> Americans, corporate power seems out of control. According to a
> Business Week/Harris poll released in September 2000, 82 percent of
> those surveyed agreed that "business has too much power over too many
> aspects of our lives." And the recent revelations of corporate
> scandal and political influence have only added to such concerns.
> 
> Where did this powerful institution come from? How did it get so much
> power? In Gangs of America: The Rise of Corporate Power and the
> Disabling of Democracy, author Ted Nace probes the roots of corporate
> power, finding answers in surprising places.
> 
> A key revelation of the book is the wariness of the Founding Fathers
> toward corporations. That wariness was shaped by rampant abuses on
> the part of British corporations such as the Virginia Company, whose
> ill-treatment killed thousands of women and children on forced-labor
> tobacco plantations, and the East India Company, whose attempt to
> monopolize American commodities led to the merchant-led rebellion
> known as the Boston Tea Party.
> 
> Because of such attitudes, the word corporation does not appear once
> in the United States Constitution. At the Constitutional Convention,
> all proposals to include corporations in that document were voted
> down by delegates. Corporate attorneys persisted in seeking legal
> protections for their clients by means of sympathetic court rulings,
> but until the Civil War such attempts largely failed.
> 
> After the Civil War, the tide quickly turned, as lobbyists secured
> key changes in corporate law and as corporate attorneys won a series
> of decisions from an increasingly pro-corporate Supreme Court. Nace
> recounts the key figures who engineered the "corporate bill of
> rights," in particular two brilliant strategists: railroad baron Tom
> Scott and Supreme Court Justice Stephen Field. The book explores in
> depth the bizarre intrigues that resulted in the infamous
> "corporations are persons" ruling of 1886, and how that ruling
> affected the subsequent development of Supreme Court doctrine.
> 
> Nace charts the growth of corporate power through the Gilded Age,
> including the bloody repression of organized labor and the rise of
> social Darwinist thinking among American elites. He recounts how that
> expansion came to a halt under the New Deal, as organized labor
> gained legal protections, social Darwinism fell into disrepute, and
> Franklin Roosevelt asserted a vision of American society that placed
> democratic limits on corporate power. To many observers, it seemed
> that the corporate Frankenstein had finally been tamed by
> "countervailing power."
> 
> According to Nace, that optimistic view was dashed in the final
> decades of the twentieth century, as Big Business mounted a
> remarkable comeback. The corporate political resurgence began with a
> 1971 memorandum written by Lewis Powell, Jr., shortly before Powell
> was appointed to the Supreme Court by Richard Nixon. In the
> memorandum, Powell urged corporate America to apply its full
> organizational and strategic resources to politics, a course of
> action that proved highly successful.
> 
> Gangs of America describes the expansion of corporate legal
> empowerment onto the global stage through international agreements
> such as 

Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country

[Michael Redler]

In poor taste?
Maybe. I liked it anyway just because it's different from what I'm used to hearing.
 
Mean spirited?
Doubtful. Listen to Rush if you want to hear mean spirited and poor taste.
 
"God must love you better." and "In God we Trust"
 
This must be confusing to some atheists. Pagans just think your missing an "s". As for agnostics, well, you might have to clarify exactly which God they need to trust because they're really not sure.
 
Finally, what's a red neck? That is to say, is it people with a red neck? I have a sun burn on my neck from working outside so, I must be one. But, I don't feel like it has caused a major shift in my ideology and I haven't experienced any discrimination even though people have pointed it out on several occasions. More importantly, what makes "God" love "red necks" less?  
 
:-)
 
Mike
Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ya know I still have to run across evidence that the Redneck faithful anyless cafeteria Christians, Jews and Muslims than the faithful residing inthe blue states are.Doug, N0LKK- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:03 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The New Blue States/Country> In poor taste. Maybe even mean spirited. God must Love you better than> us RED NECKS. Oh, that's right, you don't believe "In GOD We Trust".>> I second that emotion...Proud to be a liberal from a BLUESTATEDB with BD___Biofuel mailing
 listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] Attachments re: ethanol from Sorghum

[Mark Klein]

Sorry
MARK KLEIN
- Original Message - 
From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:40 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Attachments re: ethanol from Sorghum



on 7/30/05 7:03 PM, Mark Klein at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 some text that barely came across + some pictures that
froze up my (2-wire) connection for about ten minutes. Please
respect bandwidth limitations and post your pictures to a
website for those with the interest and connection speed.

Thanks, -K




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messages):

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Re: [Biofuel] Cornell on ethanol, biodiesel, & hydrogen energy efficiencies

[Andrew Lowe]

Michael wrote:

This press release below produced the AP story that follows it.

July 5, 2005
Cornell ecologist's study finds that producing ethanol and biodiesel 
from corn and other crops is not worth the energy


By Susan S. Lang



 Chris Hallman/University Photography

 Ecologist David Pimentel, shown here pumping gas, says that his 
analysis shows that producing ethanol uses more energy than the 
resulting fuel generates. Copyright © Cornell University



[snip]

	Sorry for the late reply on this one, but with dress sense like what 
was shown in the picture how can anyone take this bloke seriously? I ask 
you. Also with that posture and the look on his face, has anyone checked 
for a pulse? It reminds me of an episode of "The Goodies" where they 
where shown using the Russian Politburo as glove puppets - aahhh I see 
it - if you squint at the part between  his left leg and the car I'm 
sure I see an arm with an Exxon logo on it.. ;)


Yours in jest,
Andrew

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[Biofuel] veriety of jatropha

[Shailesh kumar]

  dear sir,
i would like to know more about the veriey of Jatropha curcus , which is best in oil content and best in production. which organisation is working in this regards.

thanks
shailesh




Shailesh kumar Pansuriya
Plot No.77, Astron Society,
Amin Marg, RAJKOT 360001 
INDIA
Tele-fax:+91 281 2460151
Mobile:+91 9825079901
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from Sorgum please

[mustafa majid]

Sweet Sorghum is the way to go for a lot of reasons.  I am trying to
get the responsce from different varities (old and new) with the aim
of max. stalk yield.  We believe we could use the existing sugar mill
/ distillery structure to process the sorghum stalks.  We also believe
new varities being developed in China will increase Brix over
Sugarcane.

So far on July 12 we have made expremential plots for a few lines and
are always interested in getting help or helping experiment new
varities.

Regards

On 7/31/05, Dale Volzka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>  
> - Original Message - 
> From: Mark Klein 
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ethanol from Sorgum please
> Mark-
> Hey-
>  
> This is interesting stuff.
>  
> I'm a forester and trying to deal with the age-old problem of what to do
> with all that brush that grows wild here in Wi.. If you search the web there
> is quite a bit of info about making charcoal. My little experiment last
> winter has left me puzzled as to the possible uses.
>  
> The indirect method involves heating wood in a enclosed vessel and forcing
> the smoke from the trapped wood into the firebox. As the reaction proceeds,
> and the heat of the wood increases, the burn in the firebox becomes
> self-sustaining and incredibly exothermic. The combustible gases could be
> siphoned off and be used (maybe) for distillation and the stack heat
> diverted to the pre-heater. What is left in the crucible is the clean lump
> charcoal I currently use for much of my cooking, but also is finding its'
> way into my garden as a very nice way to bulk up my clayish soil and seems
> to help greatly in water retention. Do you think this would help to connect
> some of those highly elusive dots?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> It is Ethanol made from sweet sorghum. Ssorghum.
> 
>  
> 
>
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we need Sorganol(r)?  
> 
>  
> 
> 
>
>   
>   
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Sorganol(r) is the BEST Alternative Fuel Crop
> In the Continental United States to Grow
> For the production of Alcohol
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Table III-8
> ACREAGE REQUIRED TO PRODUCE BIOMASS FOR A 25 MILLION GALLON PER YEAR 
> 
> ETHANOL PRODUCTION FACILITY
> 
> 
> BIOMASS MATERIAL
> 
> ETHANOL POTENTIAL 
> (gallons per ton dry matter)
> 
> ETHANOL POTENTIAL 
> (gallons per acre per year)
> 
> TONS BIOMASS 
> required (dry, per year) for production of 25 million gallons ethanol
> 
> ACRES REQUIRED 
> for biomass for 25 million gallon-per- year facility
> 
> 
> Sugarcane ("prepared cane")
> 
> 114
> 
> 1,637
> 
> 218,933
> 
> 15,270
> 
> 
> Sugarcane - whole plant (no open field burning)
> 
> 105
> 
> 1,967
> 
> 238,655
> 
> 12,709
> 
> 
> Sugarcane varieties (Puerto Rico & Hawaii)
> 
> 114
> 
> 3,299
> 
> 219,768
> 
> 7,578
> 
> 
> Napier Grass
> 
> 67
> 
> 1,449
> 
> 372,670
> 
> 17,257
> 
> 
> Sweet Sorghum
> 
> 125
> 
> 3,037
> 
> 200,290
> 
> 8,231
> 
> 
> Eucalyptus
> 
> 76
> 
> 792
> 
> 327,054
> 
> 31,547
> 
> 
> Leucaena
> 
> 80
> 
> 736
> 
> 312,397
> 
> 33,956
> 
> 
> Newspaper
> 
> 110
> 
>  
> 
> 226,260
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Municipal Solid Waste
> 
> 60
> 
>  
> 
> 417,282
> 
> --
> 
> On the basis of the assumptions presented in this chapter, sugar cane
> varieties, sweet sorghum, 
> 
> MSW and paper wastes appear to have the most immediate potential to serve as
> sources of biomass for ethanol production.
> 
> While Sugarcane out produces Sorghum, it cannot be produced in the Midwest
> due to it's growing season.
> 
> Source:  http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/ethanol/ch3.html
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Since 1988, Dr. Anderson of ISU has been researching 
> 
> and growing this crop.
> 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Data indicated a yield of over
> 
> 800 gal/acre  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Crop is very low input 
> 
> 
> 
> Requires only 1/4 - 1/3 the inputs of corn of corn  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drought resistant and hardy 
> 
> 
> 
> Requires only 1/4 - 1/3 the inputs 
> 
> 
> 
> New varieties, harvesting and processing techniques have pushed this
> potential to over 1000 gal/acre.  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
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>  
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>  
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>  
> 
>  
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>  
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>  
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>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> CORN vs. SORGANOL (r)
> 
>  
> 
> CORN vs. SORGANOL(r) Income Ratio:
> 
>  
> 
> 3.2 ADVANTAGE
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
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>  
> 
> 
> 
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>   
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>  
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>