Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Hello Terry We start to go round in circles, as expected. You're quoting from the report I mentioned earlier, Livestock's Long Shadow, or rather from Knickerbocker's report on it in the Christian Science Monitor. Here's the CSM article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0220/p03s01-ussc.html Humans' beef with livestock: a warmer planet | csmonitor.com February 20, 2007 edition Here's the report: Livestock's long shadow - Environmental issues and options H. Steinfeld, P. Gerber, T. Wassenaar, V. Castel, M. Rosales, C. de Haan 2006, 390 pp http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm LEAD http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.pdf LEAD (Livestock, Environment and Development), the group that did the study, starts off from the premise that livestock and meat are a no-no. Grazing degrades land, says LEAD, eg. That's a keyhole view, it can do so, but only in circumstances that usually turn out to have little to do with livestock and grazing per se. Many people have pointed out that grazing systems are the key to restoring degraded land, which is a lot closer to the truth. As I said, even where the report itself fails to get it straight (often), it is a critique of industrial agriculture and livestock, and it does not have general application. Knickerbocker also quotes a University of Chicago report comparing the global warming impact of meat eaters with that of vegetarians. That is here: Diet, Energy and Global Warming, Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin, Dept. of the Geophysical Sciences, Univ. of Chicago, May 2005 http://geosci.uchicago.edu/~gidon/papers/nutri/nutri3.pdf Briefly, it's a load of bollocks. This is why I said this in the first place: ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. So you do that, eh? Best Keith Hi Keith, Because the source of the facts came from the Vancouver Sun's Green Issue in Nov. I am not sure of were the Original Union of Concerned Scientists study is. Here is a quote from Brad Knickerbocker of the Christian Science Monitor: U.S. meat eater are responsible for more tons of CO2 per person than 1 vegetarian per year. The causes are; deforrestation, land for feed crops, energy for fertilizers, runs to slaugherhouses and meat processing plants, and pumping water. The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization's quote. Livestock are one of the most significant contributors to todays most serious environmental problems. This organization also quoted the 18% figure for GHG. They also mentioned that livestock produces 9% for CO2 and 37% methane and 65% nitrous oxide. Those are world totals. Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 02:54:06 +0900 Hi Terry Hi Keith, I'm not sure how the math works out but you have to take into consideration that methane gas is 23 times more potent as a green house gas then CO2. I didn't forget that, but shouldn't that mean more cars, not fewer cars? Also it's not clear when they say 18% of total global emissions whether they're referring to methane emissions or total GHG emissions. I think UCS usually gets it right, I don't think they were correctly quoted. But I haven't managed to find the original work at their website. Also the commercial livestock farms use many times more fossil fuels to create food than do organic produce farms. Of course the 100 mile diet is important too. Indeed. To sum up, I think the criticism applies to factory farms, which are not farms at all, but it doesn't apply to real farming. Adopting a vegetarian diet is perhaps one alternative to supporting factory farming, but a better alternative is to support sustainable farming, which necessarily includes livestock and meat production. Vegetarianism itself is not a sustainable alternative. As an individual diet choice perhaps, but not as a farming system. Thanks - regards Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison keith at journeytoforever.org Reply-To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org To: biofuel at sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 19:13:55 +0900 Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33
Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith Regards, Wendell From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/03/02 Fri AM 04:13:55 CST To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total global emissions. But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global emissions? Cattle and hog farms means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you said, the total of all livestock on this planet. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to me. Thanks Terry. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900 Hello Terry Hi Kirk, If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar and we would walk or bike almost everywere This: and we would be totally Vegan. ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the amount of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars of the road. Feed lots, etc? What does the etc mean? I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse, should we cut them all down too? Do trees share blame for global warming? http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p13s01-sten.html Globally, living plants may contribute from 10 to 30 percent of global methane emissions. I haven't seen the UCS report you mention, would you give us a reference or a link please? Anyway you're talking about feedlots, CAFOs, Confined Animal Feeding Operations, industrialised factory farms. No CAFOs no meat? That's the same mistake enviros make when they attack fuel ethanol because they don't like Archer Daniel Midlands and Cargill. There are other ways of doing things, as we ought to know by now. There've been a number of high-profile critiques of industrial meat production and global warming, this is the main one: http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm Livestock's long shadow - Environmental issues and options Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Feedlot cattle, pigs and poultry eat industrialised grain, produced with high dependence on fossil-fuel inputs and at high environmental cost, and the same applies to the CAFO livestock production system itself. Check out how carbon-neutral industrialised grain turns out to be. Pastured
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[Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Speaking of termites - any advice for a environmentally benign way to keep them under control? -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith Regards, Wendell From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/03/02 Fri AM 04:13:55 CST To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total global emissions. But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global emissions? Cattle and hog farms means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you said, the total of all livestock on this planet. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to me. Thanks Terry. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900 Hello Terry Hi Kirk, If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar and we would walk or bike almost everywere This: and we would be totally Vegan. ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the amount of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars of the road. Feed lots, etc? What does the etc mean? I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse, should we cut them all down too? Do trees share blame for global warming? http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p13s01-sten.html Globally, living plants may contribute from 10 to 30 percent of global methane emissions. I haven't seen the UCS report you mention, would you give us a reference or a link please? Anyway you're talking about feedlots, CAFOs, Confined Animal Feeding Operations, industrialised factory farms. No CAFOs no meat? That's the same mistake enviros make when they attack fuel ethanol because they don't like Archer Daniel Midlands and Cargill. There are other ways of doing things, as we ought to know by now. There've been a number of high-profile critiques of industrial meat production and global warming, this is the main one: http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm Livestock's long shadow - Environmental issues and options Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Feedlot cattle, pigs and poultry eat industrialised grain, produced with high dependence on fossil-fuel inputs and at high
Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Terry, Unable to find the information you referred to at Grist Magazine's web site, I went to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization's site and found a book called Livestock and the Environment: Finding a Balance. http://www.fao.org/ag/againfo/resources/documents/Lxehtml/tech/index.htm In Chapter 5 is a section dealing with GHG emissions due to livestock I suspect this may be where the quote attributed to the United Nations Food an Agriculture Organization (regarding GHG emissions from livestock) came from. But where you said They also mentioned that livestock produces 9% for CO2 and 37% methane and 65% nitrous oxide. Those are world totals. The book says: (Chapter 5 Beyond Production Systems; Livestock and greenhouse gases) As shown, livestock and manure management contribute about 16 percent of total annual production of 550 million tons. Source: USEPA, 1995. Methane emission (NOT the 37% you quote) Regarding Nitrous Oxides and livestock: Nitrous oxide emissions. Nitrous oxide is another greenhouse gas contributing to global warming. Total N2O emissions have been estimated by Bouwman (1995) at 13.6 TG N2O per year, which exceeds the stratospheric loss of 10.5 TG N2O per year by an atmospheric increase of 3.1 TG N2O per year. Animal manure contributes about 1.0 TG N2O per year to total emissions. Indirectly, livestock is associated with N2O emissions from grasslands and, through their concentrate feed requirements, with emissions from arable land and N-fertilizer use. 1 TG of the 13.6 TG total N2O emissions is 7.4%. This is far short of the 65% you quoted. The N2O emissions from livestock themselves (denitrifying bacteria acting on nitrogen in the manure) is part of the normal cycling of nitrogen. The vast majority of N2O emissions is the result of the interaction of the O2 and N2 in air at high temperatures characteristic of internal combustion engines and furnaces. Of course a portion of the overall emissions is due to transport of grain and of livestock as well as production of fertilizer and pesticides used in industrial livestock systems. This is a good reason to favor local, mixed farming systems. As for CO2 there is no mention of % CO2 attributed to livestock. There was a consideration of burning Savanna grassland: Burning of savanna vegetation, sometimes initiated by traditional herders to get high quality new grass shoots during the dry season, but also practised by hunters and croppers to clear the land or chase the game, is another important contribution to CO2 emissions.. Although exact estimates are lacking, one estimate (Menault, 1993) puts the annual emission of the savannas at 18 percent of the global agricultural emissions of CO2. Later: Carbon dioxide. In discussing carbon dioxide a clear distinction should be made between temporary and permanent emissions. Many CO2 emissions related to livestock production are part of a normal ecological cycle, with CO2 being released at the end of a growing season, but immediately recaptured again in the next growing season. The emissions from savanna burning fall into this category. Most temperate grasslands therefore have also a neutral balance. Livestock-induced deforestation in grazing systems, driven by road construction, land speculation and inappropriate incentives (Chapter 2), and fossil fuel use in the industrial system, driven by increased demand (Chapter 4) are thus the main sources of permanent carbon release. I think if we are to quote numbers such as % increases or % of total GHG emissions due to a particular source, we should get our numbers right. If not, we may simply succeed in deflecting attention/blame from where it belongs energy addiction specifically energy generated from fossil fuels. Today we'll blame livestock for the mess we're in tomorrow we'll be blaming the damn anaerobes living in the guts of termites. Tom - Original Message - From: Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Tom, I read the information on the environmental on-line magazine called Grist Magazine. web site is; [EMAIL PROTECTED] The issue was from about the middle of Feb. I believe. It was a story done on how a vegetarian diet can help to reduce GHG. I had to click on to the heading to get all of the information. There could still be a discussion going on about this topic on their site. Terry Dyck From: Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2007 15:46:49 -0500 Terry, You quote The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization as follows: Livestock are one of the most
Re: [Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Mike, For what it's worth: Termites chew the plant matter, including wood, but it is the microbes in their gut that digest it. Termites, like all animals, lack the enzyme cellulase, needed to break down plant cell walls. As I understand it, the microbes are obligate anaerobes and are sensitive to O2. I've heard that high levels of O2 kill their endosymbiotic microbes and the termites then starve to death. I don't know if this is a practical means of eliminating termites or if it is done commercially. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:48 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Speaking of termites - any advice for a environmentally benign way to keep them under control? -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith Regards, Wendell From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/03/02 Fri AM 04:13:55 CST To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total global emissions. But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global emissions? Cattle and hog farms means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you said, the total of all livestock on this planet. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to me. Thanks Terry. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900 Hello Terry Hi Kirk, If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar and we would walk or bike almost everywere This: and we would be totally Vegan. ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the amount of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars of the road. Feed lots, etc? What does the etc mean? I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse, should we cut them all down too? Do trees share blame for global warming? http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p13s01-sten.html Globally, living plants may contribute from 10 to 30 percent of global methane emissions. I haven't seen the UCS report you mention, would you give us a reference or a link please? Anyway you're talking about feedlots, CAFOs, Confined Animal Feeding Operations,
Re: [Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Don't build from wood. Thats the only surefire method of keeping carpenter ants from eating your house in the northwest. Now, unlike termites, ants don't actually eat wood, as my grandpa delights in telling me. But they chew it up and turn beams into little piles of sawdust, so from a practical standpoint, they might as well. On 3/4/07, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, For what it's worth: Termites chew the plant matter, including wood, but it is the microbes in their gut that digest it. Termites, like all animals, lack the enzyme cellulase, needed to break down plant cell walls. As I understand it, the microbes are obligate anaerobes and are sensitive to O2. I've heard that high levels of O2 kill their endosymbiotic microbes and the termites then starve to death. I don't know if this is a practical means of eliminating termites or if it is done commercially. Tom - Original Message - From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2007 9:48 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Speaking of termites - any advice for a environmentally benign way to keep them under control? -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith Regards, Wendell From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2007/03/02 Fri AM 04:13:55 CST To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total global emissions. But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global emissions? Cattle and hog farms means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you said, the total of all livestock on this planet. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to me. Thanks Terry. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900 Hello Terry Hi Kirk, If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar and we would walk or bike almost everywere This: and we would be totally Vegan. ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the amount of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars of the road. Feed lots, etc? What does the etc mean? I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse, should we cut them
Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
On 3/4/07, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! I think alot better arguement could be made that there is no known benefit to the planet from Humans, and we should go get 'em. Oh, except that you can't ask a human this question because they are not a neutral observer. Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] the 'Inconvenient Truth'
snip? I think alot better arguement could be made that there is no known benefit to the planet from Humans, and we should go get 'em. Oh, except that you can't ask a human this question because they are not a neutral observer. looks like we are well on our way to doing just that. but let's not go gently into that good night without at least some fight. no more wars except against global warming, eh? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Seems to me that humans are doing a pretty good job of eliminating humans, by means direct and indirect. Getting back to Al Gore and the movie, An Inconvenient Truth. I think Mr. Gore deserves whatever applause he is getting. Coming from his community (professional politician, wealth), it took some courage for him to invest this degree of himself in an unwelcome message. Does the movie soft-sell the reality? Of course it does, what else could we expect at this point, let alone two years ago when it was being made? Without question, it is a key reason that climate change is even getting coverage in the mainstream media in the North American media. (I would have thought Katrina would have done it, but as a story, I am astonished how little coverage there is of the continuing plight of the displaced and areas that have not recovered, let alone discussion of whether or not N.O. should be rebuilt being below sea-level in a high-risk area for a repeat event.) Can we quibble about the fact that Mr. Gore is not Mother Teresa, and there is more Gore in the movie than some would like? Of course. However, if it was just another dry documentary without some celebrity sizzle, would as many people have gone to see it? I seriously doubt it. The movie was a success in raising the message. It may even be a success financially (which is another important message - the environment can be economically successful, even if this is a tangential case). Let's not let perfect be the enemy of good. Is it enough? Of course not, but why should we expect Gore to be doing this alone? If you can do better, then do so. Until then, let's support the few environment heroes we have. If we need to criticize, let's pick the worthy targets (e.g., the Bush administration environmental record, Exxon-Mobil and the rest of the usual suspects). So long as the environment supporters keep bickering amongst ourselves, the environment destroyers will keep on with business as usual. Darryl McMahon Zeke Yewdall wrote: On 3/4/07, *Keith Addison* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! I think alot better arguement could be made that there is no known benefit to the planet from Humans, and we should go get 'em. Oh, except that you can't ask a human this question because they are not a neutral observer. Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Darryl McMahon It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
arsenic bait so they take it to the queen. If she is gone so is the whole colony of termites. Kirk Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speaking of termites - any advice for a environmentally benign way to keep them under control? -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hello Wendell By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith Regards, Wendell From: Keith Addison Date: 2007/03/02 Fri AM 04:13:55 CST To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total global emissions. But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global emissions? Cattle and hog farms means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you said, the total of all livestock on this planet. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to me. Thanks Terry. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900 Hello Terry Hi Kirk, If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar and we would walk or bike almost everywere This: and we would be totally Vegan. ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the amount of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars of the road. Feed lots, etc? What does the etc mean? I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse, should we cut them all down too? Do trees share blame for global warming? http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p13s01-sten.html Globally, living plants may contribute from 10 to 30 percent of global methane emissions. I haven't seen the UCS report you mention, would you give us a reference or a link please? Anyway you're talking about feedlots, CAFOs, Confined Animal Feeding Operations, industrialised factory farms. No CAFOs no meat? That's the same mistake enviros make when they attack fuel ethanol because they don't like Archer Daniel Midlands and Cargill. There are other ways of doing things, as we ought to know by now. There've been a number of high-profile critiques of industrial meat production and global warming, this is the main one: http://www.virtualcentre.org/en/library/key_pub/longshad/A0701E00.htm Livestock's long shadow - Environmental issues and options Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations Feedlot cattle, pigs and poultry eat industrialised grain, produced with high dependence on fossil-fuel inputs and at high
[Biofuel] Termites
the soil fertility to produce multiple following crops, displaces the need for fossil-fuel based chemical fertilisers, and does so at a healthy profit. Such pasture soils sequester very large amounts of carbon. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. Well so what, it doesn't have any future anyway, any more than the rest of the industrial agriculture disaster does. It's fossil-fuel dependent every step of the way, and measured in food miles that comes to a hell of a long way. It'll bust all their bottom-lines when carbon accounting starts hitting the global trade it depends on, the insane distribution system, the processing. Apart from all of which CAFOs have become a major bio-hazard. No need for it anyway. The future is small, sustainable, family-run mixed farms with integrated crop and livestock production, low input, high output, local markets. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:45:14 -0800 (PST) The message is - It isnt really that important. If it were I would do it. So how true is it - at least to him. If it doent motivate him maybe he knows something we dont. So of all people to squander energy it shouldnt be him. You might want to look into Cripple Creek Coal which he is on the board of directors. Kirk Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Kirk and all, When the message cannot be attacked then attack the messenger. Ok, so Gore doesn?t walk the talk. How many of us do? We try to, but there is a long way to go for most everyone in the developed world. It?s the message that?s inportant, not the man. Tom Irwin - From: Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:57:43 -0800 (PST) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/ biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/ attachments/20070304/c2a96e05/attachment-0001.html -- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2007 08:57:48 -0700 From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On 3/4/07, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Wendell snip By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! I think alot better arguement could be made that there is no known benefit to the planet from Humans, and we should go get 'em. Oh, except that you can't ask a human this question because they are not a neutral observer. Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion
Re: [Biofuel] Build your own wind turbine.
You can download the plans free. Also a how to make the blades. Hugh is the real deal. http://www.scoraigwind.com/ http://practicalaction.org/docs/energy/pmg_manual.pdf plans D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This site has the magnets and wire too... http://cgi.ebay.com/How-to-Build-a-Wind-Turbine-Generator-plan-Hugh-Piggott_W0QQitemZ110083683350QQihZ001QQcategoryZ121837QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] FDA is expected to approve the marketing of the new antibiotic called Cefquinome for use in cattle
/The Washington post reports that the FDA is expected to approve the marketing of the new antibiotic called Cefquinome for use in cattle. This is over objections of the American medical association, the FDA advisory board and the World Health Organization. Cefquinome is from a class of highly potent 'last line of defense' antibiotics for several serious human infections. It is feared that large scale use in cattle will allow bacteria to develop a resistance to these drugs http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/03/AR2007030301311.html. This news follows complaints from the FDA that it is no longer getting the funds needed to do the research required for the desired level of food safety./ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Termites - Re: Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use
Hi Kirk arsenic bait so they take it to the queen. If she is gone so is the whole colony of termites. Do termites actually take the arsenic to the queen? And do they actually eat wood? I thought they use it as a growth medium for their fungi gardens. This is a great read: The Soul of the White Ant Eugène N. Marais http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#marais A classic, filled with charm and wisdom. Best Keith Kirk Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Speaking of termites - any advice for a environmentally benign way to keep them under control? -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hello Wendell By the way, I seem to recall that termites are the source of 20 percent of the world's methane. I am no entomologist --is there any known benefit to man or beast from termites? If not, let's get 'em! Right, let's kill them all! Termite-caused global warming has to be stopped in its tracks. There can't be anything important about termites anyway, I mean they only produce 20% of the world's methane after all, and only about two-thirds of the world's dead plants go through termites in the organic matter cycle, obviously they're totally useless to man and beast. Anyway, if we can wipe them out and lose that methane maybe we can go right on guzzle-guzzle-guzzling for a few days or weeks longer before we hit Cold Turkey time on the fossil fuels. What do you think we should use, DDT or malathion? What about the methane from wild ruminants, you forgot about them - there are millions and millions of antelope and wildebees in the Serengeti for instance, if we don't go right in there and kill them they'll just go right on farting. Same applies to all these useless creatures, if they can't live without being so irresponsible then they just have to go. Nature knows best, and if Nature was capable of making these decisions for herself she wouldn't have given us brains to do it for her, right? Best Keith Regards, Wendell From: Keith Addison Date: 2007/03/02 Fri AM 04:13:55 CST To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Hi Terry Thanks for finding the ref. Hi Keith, You asked for a link to the the UCS quote. It was from the Green Issue of the Vancouver Sun newspaper in Nov. (Vancouver, BC, Can.) The actual quote was, Methane produced by waste on cattle and hog farms is as hard on the atmospher as 33 million cars. 18% of total global emissions. But 33 million cars is only about 15% of the number of vehicles in the US, let alone globally, how can that equal 18% of global emissions? Cattle and hog farms means CAFOs, not farms, or at least in the vast majority of cases. I don't think that's the same as what you said, the total of all livestock on this planet. I think the meat industry would account for a lot more than a paltry 33 million cars' worth of GHGs. I still think that. The claim of 18% of global emissions from CAFOs doesn't sound unreasonable, but the cars bit can't be right, seems to me. Thanks Terry. Best Keith Terry Dyck From: Keith Addison Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore's 'Inconvenient Truth' Power Use Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:26:10 +0900 Hello Terry Hi Kirk, If all of us did what we should be doing our houses would be one room heated with Geo Thermal, hot water and electricity by solar and we would walk or bike almost everywere This: and we would be totally Vegan. ... is nonsense, as we've established quite thoroughly many times. Please go to the archives and check it out. There is no way of raising crops sustainably without using livestock in the production system. No vegetarian farming system has ever survived the test of time. Please don't argue about it until you've checked it out, no need to go over the same old ground yet another time. The Union of Concerned Scientists reports that because of the amount of Methane gas caused from feed lots, etc. that the total of all livestock on this planet is equivalent to taking 33 million cars of the road. Feed lots, etc? What does the etc mean? I'm sure the amount of GHGs emitted by trees etc is even worse, should we cut them all down too? Do trees share blame for global warming? http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0119/p13s01-sten.html Globally, living plants may contribute from 10 to 30 percent of global methane emissions. I haven't seen the UCS report you mention, would you give us a reference or a link please? Anyway you're talking about feedlots, CAFOs, Confined Animal Feeding Operations, industrialised factory farms. No CAFOs no meat? That's the same mistake enviros make when they attack fuel ethanol because they don't like Archer Daniel Midlands and Cargill. There are other ways of doing things, as we
Re: [Biofuel] Build your own wind turbine.
Hugh Piggott has a website at http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk see his books Another good site without the DIY aspect is Paul Gipe's http://www.wind-works.org Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sun, 4 Mar 2007, D. Mindock wrote: This site has the magnets and wire too... http://cgi.ebay.com/How-to-Build-a-Wind-Turbine-Generator-plan-Hugh-Piggott_W0QQitemZ110083683350QQihZ001QQcategoryZ121837QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
