Re: [Biofuel] Support Your Local Grower (ie Food...or otherwise?:))

[leo bunyan]

A Classic Doco
Well worth the watch

doug swanson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Trailer for the movie coming out this 
summer The Real Dirt on Farmer John

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sqP1SC5Tr7U

I want to see it!

doug swanson

frantz DESPREZ wrote:
 Keith Addison a e'crit :
   
 No downside. We have a wwebpage on CSAs:

 http://journeytoforever.org/farm_csa.html
 Community-supported farms
   
 
 known as AMAP in France
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community-supported_agriculture
 http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_pour_le_maintien_d'une_agriculture_paysanne
  

   
 Needs some updating - actually it didn't start in Japan, it started 
 in Switzerland. (And some of the links are broken.)
   
 
 Wikipedia says it started mid 60's in Japan, called Teikei

 frantz

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Re: [Biofuel] Mystery: How Wealth Creates Poverty in the World

[leo bunyan]

Can't have wealth without poverty
That is the capitalistic system
Our only defence is to not use these companies.


Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
http://www.commondreams.org/views07/0216-30.htm

Friday, February 16, 2007

Mystery: How Wealth Creates Poverty in the World

By Michael Parenti

There is a mystery we must explain: How is it that as corporate 
investments and foreign aid and international loans to poor countries 
have increased dramatically throughout the world over the last half 
century, so has poverty? The number of people living in poverty is 
growing at a faster rate than the world's population. What do we make 
of this?

Over the last half century, U.S. industries and banks (and other 
western corporations) have invested heavily in those poorer regions 
of Asia, Africa, and Latin America known as the Third World. The 
transnationals are attracted by the rich natural resources, the high 
return that comes from low-paid labor, and the nearly complete 
absence of taxes, environmental regulations, worker benefits, and 
occupational safety costs.

The U.S. government has subsidized this flight of capital by granting 
corporations tax concessions on their overseas investments, and even 
paying some of their relocation expenses---much to the outrage of 
labor unions here at home who see their jobs evaporating.

The transnationals push out local businesses in the Third World and 
preempt their markets. American agribusiness cartels, heavily 
subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, dump surplus products in other 
countries at below cost and undersell local farmers. As Christopher 
Cook describes it in his Diet for a Dead Planet, they expropriate the 
best land in these countries for cash-crop exports, usually 
monoculture crops requiring large amounts of pesticides, leaving less 
and less acreage for the hundreds of varieties of organically grown 
foods that feed the local populations.

By displacing local populations from their lands and robbing them of 
their self-sufficiency, corporations create overcrowded labor markets 
of desperate people who are forced into shanty towns to toil for 
poverty wages (when they can get work), often in violation of the 
countries' own minimum wage laws.

In Haiti, for instance, workers are paid 11 cents an hour by 
corporate giants such as Disney, Wal-Mart, and J.C. Penny. The United 
States is one of the few countries that has refused to sign an 
international convention for the abolition of child labor and forced 
labor. This position stems from the child labor practices of U.S. 
corporations throughout the Third World and within the United States 
itself, where children as young as 12 suffer high rates of injuries 
and fatalities, and are often paid less than the minimum wage.

The savings that big business reaps from cheap labor abroad are not 
passed on in lower prices to their customers elsewhere. Corporations 
do not outsource to far-off regions so that U.S. consumers can save 
money. They outsource in order to increase their margin of profit. In 
1990, shoes made by Indonesian children working twelve-hour days for 
13 cents an hour, cost only $2.60 but still sold for $100 or more in 
the United States.

U.S. foreign aid usually works hand in hand with transnational 
investment. It subsidizes construction of the infrastructure needed 
by corporations in the Third World: ports, highways, and refineries.

The aid given to Third World governments comes with strings attached. 
It often must be spent on U.S. products, and the recipient nation is 
required to give investment preferences to U.S. companies, shifting 
consumption away from home produced commodities and foods in favor of 
imported ones, creating more dependency, hunger, and debt.

A good chunk of the aid money never sees the light of day, going 
directly into the personal coffers of sticky-fingered officials in 
the recipient countries.

Aid (of a sort) also comes from other sources. In 1944, the United 
Nations created the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund 
(IMF). Voting power in both organizations is determined by a 
country's financial contribution. As the largest donor, the United 
States has a dominant voice, followed by Germany, Japan, France, and 
Great Britain. The IMF operates in secrecy with a select group of 
bankers and finance ministry staffs drawn mostly from the rich 
nations.

The World Bank and IMF are supposed to assist nations in their 
development. What actually happens is another story. A poor country 
borrows from the World Bank to build up some aspect of its economy. 
Should it be unable to pay back the heavy interest because of 
declining export sales or some other reason, it must borrow again, 
this time from the IMF.

But the IMF imposes a structural adjustment program (SAP), 
requiring debtor countries to grant tax breaks to the transnational 
corporations, reduce wages, and make no attempt to protect local 
enterprises from foreign imports and foreign 

Re: [Biofuel] Modular boots

[leo bunyan]

Sounds great mate
Your inspiring me
Any chance of some pics?
Leo

Dawie Coetzee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joe  Leo
  
 They're basically soft leather slipper/socks that fit inside oversize sandals, 
with greaves, etc. strapped on. The full kit might include poleyns and strap-on 
storage pouches. The idea is threefold: firstly the woodsman's axe principle, 
where you only replace what is actually worn, even though you might eventually 
end up replacing everything several times over. Secondly, even good shoemakers 
are wary of making custom boots, as it is just too easy to get the fit wrong. 
The idea is something that is as forgiving and adjustable and mistake-proof as 
a sandal with the protective value of a boot. Thirdly, the definition of the 
product is the interfaces between the components. The spaces between the 
interfaces can be filled variously by various people in various materials, so 
there's a lot of scope for people going wild.
  
  The soles are truck-tyre retread. The extreme rear of the heels are worn down 
at an angle, all the way into the foam. My shoemaker friend says they're the 
only instance he's ever seen of soles out of that stuff wearing right through. 
The new ones will have heeled soles better suited to motorcycling (though I 
don't at the moment), also wrapping up the back of the heel, like driving 
shoes: I'll see how that affects wear while walking.
  
I keep feeling as if I'm stepping out of them, so the improved version will 
have a heel-centric fit, i.e. it fits snugly around the heel and ends up 
wherever it happens to end up at the toe end. That should also help for wear 
around the Achilles region. To keep the fit flexible at the toe end the new 
ones will also have removable toe-uppers. After a lot of contemplation I 
haven't been able to come up with anything better than bolt-fixing those to the 
sides of the soles, so 10# M6x25 set screws it is.
  
 I'll keep you posted.
  
 -Dawie


  
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Blackspot Shoes
Message: 4
I like ur attitude Mack!   Publish it under creative commons license and let 
the people go wild.  I'd build a pair.

Joe

 ...
 Message: 5
I'm forever wearing out shoes and boots.  The soles seem to go the fastest, 
especially on my boots.  I walk 8 km a day to and from work.  Boots that have a 
sole hard enough to last are too friggin slippery in winter, and softer rubber 
just disappears.  I wish I had boots withreplaceable soles. Something I could 
buy and replace myself.  The other thing that wears about as fast on boots and 
shoes is the inside surface around the achilies area.  Some kind of replaceable 
insert would fix this.  Duct tape is the closest thing I could come up with.  
It works!

Joe

leo bunyan wrote:
 If you ever get it to publication I would certainly be interested
Cheers
Leo


   
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[Biofuel] Being Australian

[leo bunyan]

MAATE!

Being Australian is about driving in a German car to an Irish pub 
for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing an Indian curry or a 
Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish furniture and watch American 
shows on a Japanese TV.
Oh and.. Only in Australia ... can a pizza get to your house 
faster than an ambulance.
Only in Australia ... do supermarkets make sick people walk all the 
way to the back of the shop to get their prescriptions while healthy 
people can buy cigarettes at the front.
Only in Australia ... do people order double cheese-burgers, large 
Fries and a DIET coke.
Only in Australia ... do banks leave both doors open and chain the 
Pens to the counters.
Only in Australia ... do we leave cars worth thousands of dollars on 
the drive and lock our junk and cheap lawn mower in the garage.
Only in Australia ... do we use answering machines to screen calls 
and then have call waiting so we won't miss a call from someone we 
didn't want to talk to in the first place.
Only in Australia ... are there disabled parking places in front of 
a skating rink.
NOT TO MENTION...3 Aussies die each year testing if a 9v battery 
works on their tongue.
142 Aussies were injured in 1999 by not removing all pins From new 
shirts.
58 Aussies are injured each year by using sharp knives instead of 
screwdrivers.
31 Aussies have died since 1996 by watering their Christmas tree 
while the fairy lights were plugged in.
8 Aussies had serious burns in 2000 trying on a new jumper with a 
lit cigarette in their mouth.
A massive 543 Aussies were admitted to Emergency in the last two 
years after opening bottles of beer with their Teeth.
And finally In 2000 eight Aussies cracked their skull whilst 
throwing up into the toilet.

IF YOU'RE PROUD TO BE AUSTRALIAN SEND THIS ON!
HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY



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[Biofuel] Don't worry England will look after you

[leo bunyan]

John Cleese's Letter to America
 
To the citizens of the United States of  America
 
In light of your failure to elect a  competent President of the USA
and thus to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice  of the revocation
of your independence, effective  immediately.
 
Her Sovereign Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II,  will resume monarchical
duties over all states, commonwealths and  other territories (except 
  Kansas , which she does not fancy), as from  Monday next.
 
Your new prime minister, Tony Blair, will appoint  a governor for
  America without the need for further elections. Congress  and the Senate
will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be  circulated next year to determine
whether any of you  noticed.
 
To aid in the transition to a British  Crown Dependency, the
following rules are introduced with  immediate effect:
 
1. You should look up revocation in the   Oxford   English Dictionary.
 
Then look up aluminium, and check  the pronunciation guide. 
You will be amazed at just how wrongly you have  been
pronouncing  it.
 
2. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words  such as 'colour',
 'favour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will  learn to spell  'doughnut'
without skipping half the letters, and the  suffix ize  will be replaced  by
the suffix  ise.
 
3. You will learn that the suffix 'burgh'  is pronounced 'burra';
 you may elect to respell   Pittsburgh as  'Pittsberg' if you find you simply
 can't cope with correct  pronunciation.
 
4. Generally, you will be expected to raise  your vocabulary to
 acceptable levels (look up vocabulary). Using the  same 
 twenty-seven words interspersed with filler  noises such as like
and you know is unacceptable  and  inefficient form  of communication.
 
5.There is no such thing asUS  English. We will let Microsoft
 know on your behalf. The Microsoft  spell-checker will be adjusted to  take
 account of the reinstated letter 'u' and  the elimination of -ize.
 
6. You will relearn your original national  anthem, God Save The
 Queen, but only after fully carrying out Task  #1 (see above).
 
7. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as  a holiday. November 2nd
 will be a new national holiday, but to be  celebrated only in
England  . It will be called Come-Uppance Day.
 
8. You will learn to resolve personal issues  without using guns,
 lawyers or therapists. The fact that you need  so many lawyers and
 therapists shows that you're not adult enough to  be independent. 
Guns should only be handled by adults. If you're  not adult enough 
to sort things out without suing someone or  speaking to a therapist 
then you're not grown up enough to handle a  gun.
 
9. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to  own or carry
 anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler.  A permit will be 
required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler  in public.
 
10. All American cars are hereby banned. They  are crap and this is
 for your own good. When we show you German cars,  you
 will  understand what we  mean.
 
11. All intersections will be replaced  with roundabouts, and you
 will start driving on the left with  immediate effect. At the same time,
 you will go metric immediately and without  the benefit of conversion
 tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will  help you understand the
 British sense of  humour.
 
12. The Former   USA will adopt UK  prices on petrol (which you have
 been calling gasoline) - roughly $6/US gallon.  Get used to it.
 
13. You will learn to make real chips. Those  things you call French
 fries are not real chips, and those things  you insist on calling  potato
 chips are properly called crisps. Real chips  are thick cut, fried in
 animal fat, and dressed not with mayonnaise but  with vinegar.
 
14. Waiters and waitresses will be trained to  be more aggressive
 with  customers.
 
15. The cold tasteless stuff you insist on  calling beer is not
 actually beer at all. Henceforth, only  proper British Bitter will be
 referred to as beer, and European brews of  known and accepted 
provenance will be referred to as Lager.  American brands will be 
referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so  that all can be sold 
without risk of further  confusion.
 
16.   Hollywood will be  required occasionally to cast English  actors
 as  good guys.   Hollywood will also be  required to cast  English actors
 to play English characters. Watching Andie  MacDowell attempt English
 dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was  an experience akin 
to having one's ears removed with a cheese  grater.
 
17. You will cease playing American  football. There is only one
 kind of proper football; you call it soccer.  Those of you brave 
enough will, in time, will be allowed to play  rugby (which has some 
similarities to American football, but does  not involve stopping 
for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing  full kevlar body armour 
like a bunch of  nancies).
 
18. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It  is not reasonable
 to host an event called the 

Re: [Biofuel] Being Australian

[leo bunyan]

Jesse  Zeke
I think it's a symptom of the developed countries
Nobody seems to have the monopoly on stupidity in the western world
Leo

Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds like the US to me
Z

On 2/3/07, Jesse Frayne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I donno, Leo,
This sounds exactly like Canada
Jesse

--- leo bunyan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 MAATE!

 Being Australian is about driving in a German car to 
 an Irish pub
 for a Belgian beer, then travelling home, grabbing
 an Indian curry or a
 Turkish kebab on the way, to sit on Swedish
 furniture and watch American
 shows on a Japanese TV. 
 Oh and.. Only in Australia ... can a pizza get
 to your house
 faster than an ambulance.
 Only in Australia ... do supermarkets make sick
 people walk all the
 way to the back of the shop to get their 
 prescriptions while healthy
 people can buy cigarettes at the front.
 Only in Australia ... do people order double
 cheese-burgers, large
 Fries and a DIET coke.
 Only in Australia ... do banks leave both doors open 
 and chain the
 Pens to the counters.
 Only in Australia ... do we leave cars worth
 thousands of dollars on
 the drive and lock our junk and cheap lawn mower in
 the garage.
  Only in Australia ... do we use answering machines
 to screen calls
 and then have call waiting so we won't miss a call
 from someone we
 didn't want to talk to in the first place. 
 Only in Australia ... are there disabled parking
 places in front of
 a skating rink.
 NOT TO MENTION...3 Aussies die each year testing if
 a 9v battery
 works on their tongue.
  142 Aussies were injured in 1999 by not removing all
 pins From new
 shirts.
 58 Aussies are injured each year by using sharp
 knives instead of
 screwdrivers.
 31 Aussies have died since 1996 by watering their 
 Christmas tree
 while the fairy lights were plugged in.
 8 Aussies had serious burns in 2000 trying on a new
 jumper with a
 lit cigarette in their mouth.
 A massive 543 Aussies were admitted to Emergency in 
 the last two
 years after opening bottles of beer with their
 Teeth.
 And finally In 2000 eight Aussies cracked their
 skull whilst
 throwing up into the toilet.

  IF YOU'RE PROUD TO BE AUSTRALIAN SEND THIS ON!
 HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY



  Send instant messages to your online friends
 http://au.messenger.yahoo.com  
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Re: [Biofuel] DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL CARSVASTLY UNDERSTATED

[leo bunyan]

Yeah John that the problem
We adore them
Maybe it's because we don't want to change
Sustainability will not come thru technology 
But thru cultural change
Leo

John Beale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh, Monsanto: how we adore thee.



On Jan 19, 2007, at 11:24 AM, Marylynn Schmidt wrote:

 Yes, but does Monsanto own the patient on sugar beets???

 Mary Lynn

 Mary Lynn Schmidt, distributor Psionic Energy Software  
 http://miracle6bizland.com/softwaresolutions/

 Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
 ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART: Facilitator/Consultant for Alternative Healing  
 Modalities and Practitioner utilizing various modalities which can  
 include TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior  
 Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic  
 Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition .  
 Homeopathy . Polarity .
 THE ANIMAL CONNECTION HEALING MODALITIES
 http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/


 From: Joe Street 
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL  
 CARSVASTLY UNDERSTATED
 Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:57:29 -0500

 I think sugar beets are a better bet for use in ethanol production  
 than corn.

 Joe

 Zeke Yewdall wrote:

 Now, using corn for fueling cars does sound like a lousy idea, but  
 not because it might increase corn prices. Considering that corn now  
 sells for only about two thirds of what it costs to grow it, I don't  
 see this is such a bad thing.  Maybe farmers around the world could  
 support themselves again?  And perhaps if economics had any effect  
 on farms they'd be tempted to shift to better crops, instead of  
 monocropping corn as a subsidized chemical plant input.  The corn  
 economy in the US is so messed up and bizzare, I don't know that I  
 can support using corn for anything anymore, let alone ethanol.



 On 1/18/07, *Frantz DESPREZ* 
  wrote:




 January 4, 2007 - 1



 Copyright © 2007 Earth Policy Institute



 DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL CARS VASTLY UNDERSTATED World
 May Be Facing Highest Grain Prices in History



 Lester R. Brown



 Investment in fuel ethanol distilleries has soared since the
 late-2005 oil price hikes, but data collection in this
 fast-changing sector has fallen behind. Because of inadequate  
 data
 collection on the number of new plants under construction, the
 quantity of grain that will be needed for fuel ethanol
 distilleries has been vastly understated. Farmers, feeders, food
 processors, ethanol investors, and grain-importing countries are
 basing decisions on incomplete data.



 The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) projects that
 distilleries will require only 60 million tons of corn from the
 2008 harvest. But here at the Earth Policy Institute (EPI), we
 estimate that distilleries will need 139 million tons—more than
 twice as much. If the EPI estimate is at all close to the mark,
 the emerging competition between cars and people for grain will
 likely drive world grain prices to levels never seen before. The
 key questions are: How high will grain prices rise? When will the
 crunch come? And what will be the worldwide effect of rising food
 prices?



 One reason for the low USDA projection is that it was released in
 February 2006, well before the effect of surging oil prices on
 investment in fuel ethanol distilleries was fully apparent.  
 Beyond
 this, USDA relies heavily on the Renewable Fuels Association
 (RFA), a trade group, for data on ethanol distilleries under
 construction, but the RFA data have lagged behind movement in the
 industry.



 We drew on four firms that collect and publish data on U.S.
 ethanol distilleries under construction. RFA is the one most
 frequently cited. The other three firms are Europe-based F.O.
 Licht, the publisher of World Ethanol and Biofuels Report; BBI
 International, which publishes Ethanol Producer Magazine; and the
 American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE), publisher of Ethanol Today.



 Unfortunately, the lists of plants under construction maintained
 by RFA, BBI, and ACE are not complete. Each contains some plants
 that are not on the other lists. Drawing on these three lists and
 on biweekly reports from F.O. Licht, EPI has compiled a more
 complete master list. For example, while we show 79 plants under
 construction, RFA lists 62 plants. (We welcome any information
 that will improve this list, which can be viewed at
 www.earthpolicy.org/Updates/2007/Update63_data.htm
 .)



 According to the EPI compilation, the 116 plants in production on
 December 31, 2006, were using 53 million tons of grain per year,
 while the 79 plants under construction—mostly larger
 facilities—will use 51 million tons of grain when they come
 

Re: [Biofuel] DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL CARSVASTLY UNDERSTATED

[leo bunyan]

Very good Mary Lynn
There are other plants that can produce energy
But they wher outlawed in the 1930's
Leo

Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but does Monsanto own the 
patient on sugar beets???

Mary Lynn

Mary Lynn Schmidt, distributor Psionic Energy Software 
http://miracle6bizland.com/softwaresolutions/

Rev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained Minister
ONE SPIRIT ONE HEART: Facilitator/Consultant for Alternative Healing 
Modalities and Practitioner utilizing various modalities which can include 
TTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . 
Shamanic Spiritual Travel . Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner 
. Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity .
THE ANIMAL CONNECTION HEALING MODALITIES
http://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/


From: Joe Street 
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL 
CARSVASTLY UNDERSTATED
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:57:29 -0500

I think sugar beets are a better bet for use in ethanol production than 
corn.

Joe

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

Now, using corn for fueling cars does sound like a lousy idea, but not 
because it might increase corn prices. Considering that corn now sells for 
only about two thirds of what it costs to grow it, I don't see this is 
such a bad thing.  Maybe farmers around the world could support themselves 
again?  And perhaps if economics had any effect on farms they'd be tempted 
to shift to better crops, instead of monocropping corn as a subsidized 
chemical plant input.  The corn economy in the US is so messed up and 
bizzare, I don't know that I can support using corn for anything anymore, 
let alone ethanol.



On 1/18/07, *Frantz DESPREZ* 
 wrote:




 January 4, 2007 - 1



 Copyright © 2007 Earth Policy Institute



 DISTILLERY DEMAND FOR GRAIN TO FUEL CARS VASTLY UNDERSTATED World
 May Be Facing Highest Grain Prices in History



 Lester R. Brown



 Investment in fuel ethanol distilleries has soared since the
 late-2005 oil price hikes, but data collection in this
 fast-changing sector has fallen behind. Because of inadequate data
 collection on the number of new plants under construction, the
 quantity of grain that will be needed for fuel ethanol
 distilleries has been vastly understated. Farmers, feeders, food
 processors, ethanol investors, and grain-importing countries are
 basing decisions on incomplete data.



 The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) projects that
 distilleries will require only 60 million tons of corn from the
 2008 harvest. But here at the Earth Policy Institute (EPI), we
 estimate that distilleries will need 139 million tons—more than
 twice as much. If the EPI estimate is at all close to the mark,
 the emerging competition between cars and people for grain will
 likely drive world grain prices to levels never seen before. The
 key questions are: How high will grain prices rise? When will the
 crunch come? And what will be the worldwide effect of rising food
 prices?



 One reason for the low USDA projection is that it was released in
 February 2006, well before the effect of surging oil prices on
 investment in fuel ethanol distilleries was fully apparent. Beyond
 this, USDA relies heavily on the Renewable Fuels Association
 (RFA), a trade group, for data on ethanol distilleries under
 construction, but the RFA data have lagged behind movement in the
 industry.



 We drew on four firms that collect and publish data on U.S.
 ethanol distilleries under construction. RFA is the one most
 frequently cited. The other three firms are Europe-based F.O.
 Licht, the publisher of World Ethanol and Biofuels Report; BBI
 International, which publishes Ethanol Producer Magazine; and the
 American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE), publisher of Ethanol Today.



 Unfortunately, the lists of plants under construction maintained
 by RFA, BBI, and ACE are not complete. Each contains some plants
 that are not on the other lists. Drawing on these three lists and
 on biweekly reports from F.O. Licht, EPI has compiled a more
 complete master list. For example, while we show 79 plants under
 construction, RFA lists 62 plants. (We welcome any information
 that will improve this list, which can be viewed at
 www.earthpolicy.org/Updates/2007/Update63_data.htm
 .)



 According to the EPI compilation, the 116 plants in production on
 December 31, 2006, were using 53 million tons of grain per year,
 while the 79 plants under construction—mostly larger
 facilities—will use 51 million tons of grain when they come
 online. Expansions of 11 existing plants will use another 8
 million tons of grain (1 ton of corn = 39.4 bushels = 110 gallons
 of ethanol).



 In addition, easily 200 ethanol 

Re: [Biofuel] FDA announces cloned meat safe to eat

[leo bunyan]

I think you are wrong Kieth
There is plenty of choice and I stand by what I say about If you don't like 
don't buy it
I have been changing the way I consume what I need on a much larger scale in 
the past 6yrs since leaving the city once again and this time for good. It is 
the consumerist that supports the demand that the manufacturing industry 
creates.
From what we live in to vehicles that we drive to the choice of power we use 
to the entertainment we want to how we are educated to what job we are going 
to have to the food we eat and beyond is all highly stacked towards the 
mainstream and that is because the manufacturing industry knows that if 
consumers don't buy their product they won't be in business!! Amazing eh!!!
Now last night I watched a doco on a farmer in Illonois that had quite a history
including that of his small farm providing food for 1200 families not 1200 
individuals but 1200 families check him out at www.angelicorganics.com this is 
proof that we can make a choice not only is he able to supply food for a large 
number of people but also provides employment social interaction shelter and a 
sense of being a major cog in a fantastic wheel to people that wish to be 
involved.The organic way of life is alive and kicking and growing larger as 
this fellow found out when the farm next door to him was brought by his 
shareholders for expansion
So next time Keith when you want to make a limp wristed pooolze towards 
somebody making an expression on choice just remember it is the consumer that 
buys and supports the demand.
Now I'm not trying to beat my own drum here but since I have been living a more 
sustainable lifestyle the people that I am associated with are looking further 
than mainstream and are starting to think about the way they consume. Showing 
by example is the best way to turn peoples thinking around and not leaving 
ethical decisions up to the government or authorities to make for us as they 
never will rule in the favour of health especially when money is involved.
It's not a matter of magic in the market place but creating your own reality 
that is your best defence against this entire cloning/gmo thing
Way to go Luke. I agree with you 100% Unfortunately you are right about what 
happens to escapees It's going to happen sooner or later its just another 
problem that faces those involved with organics and when it happens steps will 
be taken to fight it just like we have with herbicides pesticides drought flood 
 pestilence and attitude, panicking wont achieve a thing and is up there with 
governments for responsible actions.
Bloody hell this is the most I've ever written to this list so I'm going to get 
off my soapbox now and have a lunch of organically raised chook that I scored 
yesterday along with a salad from my small garden and a home brew beer.
Relax Kieth take it easy mate things don't need to be that bad
Have a read of the thread that you put up the other day about peasants I liked 
that, it was a beauty
Leo

Luke Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess that I can see where you're 
coming from with
the whole internalize bit, but I think that once
this GM animal thing becomes commonplace it'll become
neigh impossible to avoid these products unless you
raise your own food animals or buy from a very local
source. Additionally, What happens when a clone animal
escapes captivity and breeds with wild stock? I'm sure
someone will tell me that cloned animals are not
capable of producing viable offspring...but accidents
happen. I am whole-heartedly against this on several
levels, but primarily because it seems like such a
pandora's box that I'd rather not see opened.

Also, our global fascination with a meat-based diet is
hugely inefficient compared to having a
fruit/grain/veggie based diet with meat
supplementationpaving the road to cheaper meat
production should be a moot point...EAT LESS MEAT!
Many people in many parts of the world are starving
and living in poverty-level conditions, and people are
always argueing over the best way to end world hunger.
Well, the higher up the trophic chain you climb, the
more NRG you gotta throw at something to produce. I'm
relatively sure that if just the U.S. converted all of
its meat farms to well planned, sustainable
grain/veggie farms, we could put a pretty good dent in
the hunger problem.

But no, instead we're gonna start cranking out GM
animals, legitimizing more research into human cloning
(funny how bush hasn't flipped out about this like he
did with embryonic stem-cell research), and passing on
our little contribution to the rest of the world via
exports.

There's no room for apathy OR neutrality on this
issue. Screw 'em.







--- leo bunyan  wrote:

 I disagree with cloning for food etc
 But I maintain that if people still want to go down
 the road of the convenience of the
 supermarket/stupidmarket that maybe cloning is the
 only way to go for keeping up with demand
 If we really are concerned with what we

Re: [Biofuel] FDA announces cloned meat safe to eat

[leo bunyan]

I disagree with cloning for food etc
But I maintain that if people still want to go down the road of the 
convenience of the supermarket/stupidmarket that maybe cloning is the only 
way to go for keeping up with demand
If we really are concerned with what we eat we should be producing or 
supporting producers more on a local scale. Growing a tomato plant does not 
require a whole lot of skill or effort. If the individual does not take control 
of how they want their food then it is up to the corporations to supply. And as 
my Dad told me when i complained that I didn't like what Mum cooked you'll eat 
it, and what's more you'll like it
If you don't like the idea of cloned products Don't Buy Em
Leo

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Hank Herrera 
To: 'Community Food Security Coalition' 
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:21:45 -0500
Subject: [COMFOOD:] FDA announces cloned meat safe to eat

Today the Food and Drug Administration issued a press release on 
cloned meat (http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01541.html).

The release covers the following points (copied from the release; 
the release has more detail):

Draft risk assessment

The draft risk assessment finds that meat and milk from clones of 
adult cattle, pigs and goats, and their offspring, are as safe to 
eat as food from conventionally bred animals. The assessment was 
peer-reviewed by a group of independent scientific experts in 
cloning and animal health. They agreed with the methods FDA used to 
evaluate the data and the conclusions set out in the document.

Proposed risk management plan

The proposed risk management plan addresses risks to animal health 
and potential remaining uncertainties associated with feed and food 
from animal clones and their offspring.

Draft guidance for industry

The draft guidance for industry addresses the use of food and feed 
products derived from clones and their offspring. The guidance is 
directed at clone producers, livestock breeders, and farmers and 
ranchers purchasing clones. It provides the agency's current 
thinking on use of clones and their offspring in human food or 
animal feed.

The FDA wants comments

FDA is seeking comments from the public on the three documents for 
the next 90 days. To submit electronic comments on the three 
documents, visit 
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/oc/dockets/comments/commentdocke 
t.cfm?AGENCY=FDA. Written comments may be sent to: Division of 
Dockets Management (HFA-305), Food and Drug Administration, 5630 
Fishers Lane, Rm. 1061, Rockville, MD, 20852. Comments must be 
received by Apr. 2, 2007 and should include the docket number 
2003N-0573.

For more information, visit http://www.fda.gov/cvm/CloneRiskAssessment.htm.

-

The Consumer Federation of America has released a statement opposing
the FDA's decision.

On the question of whether FDA should consider the ethical issues
involved:

This first decision to advance animal biotechnology raises ethical
issues beyond the FDA's expertise. Neither the agency nor animal
scientists are qualified to tell us whether and when it is ethically
acceptable for humans to alter the essential nature of animals. We
need a national discussion, including ethicists and religious leaders,
to consider the wisdom of creating cloned and transgenic animals. The
President should halt further FDA action on cloning and set in motion
a process for beginning this broader discussion.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/dec28pressrelease.pdf
FDA DISDAINS PUBLIC OPPOSITION;
PROMOTES ANIMAL CLONING
STATEMENT OF CONSUMER FEDERATION'S
CAROL TUCKER FOREMAN

The Food and Drug Administration today announced it intends to allow 
cloned milk and meat in the food supply, imposing these products on a 
public that opposes cloning technology and does not want to consume 
cloned foods. The Gallup Research Organization reports that over 60 
percent of Americans think animal cloning is immoral. Other respected 
independent polls report consumers declare they will not knowingly 
eat the products even after FDA approves them. Both FDA and the 
cloning industry are aware that consumers won't knowingly buy cloned 
foods. The FDA therefore has okayed selling the products without 
identifying labels, preventing consumers from choosing not to 
purchase and use cloned foods.

CFA urges consumers who oppose production and sale of milk and meat 
from cloned animals to make their views known. Write to the FDA and 
tell them to reverse this anti-consumer action. Write to your members 
of Congress urging them to put a stop to FDA's efforts to sell cloned 
animals. Tell your supermarket manager that you don't want to eat 
cloned milk and meat and ask them not to sell these products.

The FDA has been criticized in recent years for making political 
decisions about drug safety. The agency and cloners insist that 
today's decision is based solely on science and if cloned foods are 
safe they must be accepted. This convenient fiction does not 

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: [PSI_corps] Re: it figures.

[leo bunyan]

Yes 
This just proves that it is well and truely past the time to trust the 
corporations and start to rebuild community
Leo
Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The bottom link is a MUST SEE
  Kirk


  



 PRODUCT PLUNDER OF THE WEEK: Wal-Mart is being investigated for 
 falsely advertising conventional products as organic. The 
 Cornucopia Institute has discovered that a number of Wal-Mart stores 
 are defrauding consumers by labeling products as organic that were 
 grown with pesticides and synthetic fertilizers. A formal legal 
 complaint has been filed with the USDA asking the agency to 
 investigate allegations of  illegal organic food distribution by Wal-
 Mart Stores, Inc. 
 Learn more: http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_3364.cfm;


check this one out too ... awful on so many levels i'm speechless
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7chp-EiVOsmode=relatedsearch=



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Re: [Biofuel] humanure to humus

[leo bunyan]

I heard a story I don't know how true it is.
In China The night soil was collected each morning and dug into field that 
where used for growing crops. If you were unfortunate enough to have a bout of 
constipation you were beaten with a stick until you passed what was necessary.
Thus giving rise to the saying Having the S##T beat out of you
Interesting eh
Leo

Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mary Lynn

I think it's the same principle .. what goes in is what comes out.

I read a great deal and don't necessarily remember exactly where my source
was but, I understand that it was standard practice for little men with
small wagons to take the overnight pots from the homes in the cities in
Japan and use that human manure as fertilizer in the country ..

All over the East, not just Japan. See.:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010122king/ffc.html
F. H. King: Farmers of Forty Centuries

Full text online. If you can't access it go here first and sign in at 
the Agriculture Library:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/

our
returning American military people thought this was on the side of
disgusting (American Puritan backgrounds getting into their usual judgments
concerning other cultures and practices) .. but .. whatever I read supported
this practice because the diet of the average Japanese family was very low
in meat.

Not exactly, in some places it was quite high in meat, as well as a 
lot of fish.

I can't even remember reading anything about this one .. probably just
something I've heard said forever .. but the best manure comes from the
grass eating animals which leaves out the average American, the dogs and the
cats etc because of the poor quality and large amount of meat that is
consumed while dogs and cats are both basically carnivores.

Biodynamic farmers set special store by cow manure, and when it's 
properly practised Biodynamics is a high-quality system, but IMHO 
that's because of the whole system, not just the cowdung. Cow and 
sheep manure are the basis of the ley farming system, which is based 
on rotating pastures, but pigs have a place in that scheme too, 
omnivores. We've demonstrated here that the same thing can be 
achieved by ley farming with poultry. We're using geese, which are 
mostly vegetarian, and chickens and Muscovy ducks, both omnivores. 
There's no doubt about the fertility value of their manure.

I have a set of three manuals on Organic Recycling published by the 
FAO (UN Food and Agriculture Organization) which give analytical data 
on all those manures, plus exotic stuff like tiger dung, lion dung 
and indeed human excreta. After all, Nature isn't choosy about it, 
all manure is recycled, with benefit to the soil, it's designed that 
way.

You can make high-quality compost with any kind of manure.

But I think you're confusing the quality of the compost - its value 
as a fertiliser - with the efficiency of the composting process as a 
sanitation method. Once again, any kind of manure can be safely 
composted if the usual parameters are followed (C:N ratio, moisture 
content, aeration, bulk). I said in a previous message what the 
temperature requirements are, according to the UN and according to 
the US EPA, and if those requirements are met then the compost will 
be pathogen-free. A competent compost maker can easily do that with 
any manure.

So with that being the basis of my thinking on this subject, my guess is
that a general study will not support human to fertilizer as being a good
practice because that same general study would also have all those McDonalds
Happy Meals in the mix.

Junk food composts just fine, and all the additives get broken down too.

Also, compost only requires about 20% manure, what the other 80% 
consists of can make a big difference.

.. but if there ever were an actual study done then perhaps a study
comparing horse, cow, chicken manure from small family farms against the
same species manure from factory farms and feed lots.

In the US especially you'd be contending with large amounts of 
antibiotics in the feedlot stuff, for one thing, not exactly friendly 
to the composting microorganisms, but it seems they manage anyway.

I agree that the health of the animals (and the system) is an 
important factor. Farmers converting to organic methods find that 
both the quality of the livestock manure and the quality of the 
compost it makes improve as the soil fertility improves, and the 
nutritional quality of the feed with it.

So I don't think it makes much if any difference which species the 
manure comes from, but I'd agree that some cows/pigs/chickens/humans 
are more equal than others. We've brought in both cow manure and 
chicken manure from outside, but we were very choosy about where we 
got it from. Most cattle have diarrhoea all the time. There are feral 
cattle on Lantau Island in Hong Kong, where we used to live, fending 
for themselves on the mountain slopes: you can pick up a fresh turd 
from one of those cows and you 

Re: [Biofuel] Fwd: Big Pharma Juggernaut Rolls To Victory

[leo bunyan]

Well it's not really suprising
Just another reason to take responsibility for our own health
just like we do for our biodiesel
Leo

Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  

  st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }   


  st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }Big Pharma 
Juggernaut Rolls To Victory – Health Freedom Reels – Part 1
   http://www.truthinwellness.com/articles/health_freedom_reels_pt1.php
   
  Byron J. Richards, CCN, December 11, 2006
   
   
  

   
  Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson not only rolled over in their graves, 
they had a stake driven through their  coffins by the departing 109th Congress. 
 Big Pharma is now fully in charge of the FDA.  Therapeutic nutrition is now 
marked for elimination from the free market.  How did this happen?  What does 
it all mean?  Why did the House Democrats, at 3:06 A.M., while Americans slept, 
stab our people in the back?  It is an ominous sign of things to come.
   
  As the lame duck session drew to a close, it became clear that the 
Republican’s scorched-earth policy was intended to make it difficult for the 
Democrats to get anything done next year.  They are hoping to regain voter 
confidence by making Democrats look even worse than the Republican’s near-total 
ineptitude, which is not a very tall order.   
   
  However, the Republicans and Democrats were able to agree on several key 
points regarding your health: health options for Americans should be curtailed 
and the American public should be subjected to massive drug experimentation.  
Thus, with little fanfare or reporting by the general media, the Destroy 
Effective Supplements and Poison Americans with Biotech Drugs Innovation Act of 
2006 (S.666 and HR.1832), was passed in the middle of the night, just as the 
lame duck session came to a close.
   
  Americans seem almost numb to the fact that Big Pharma kills several thousand 
of us every week.  Kudos to the 109th Congress, those numbers will now 
dramatically rise.
   
  Big Pharma Now Runs the FDA
   
  Yes, the fox is now officially in charge of the henhouse.  Over the objection 
of a small handful of Senators Big Pharma couldn’t buy, Andrew von Eschenbach, 
M.D, was confirmed to head the FDA.  His clearly stated agenda is, and always 
has been, speeding new and dangerous drugs  onto the market with little testing 
for safety or effectiveness.  Von Eschenbach would like to turn every doctor’s 
office in America into a large clinical trial run by an FDA supercomputer, he 
would like a computer chip in your arm, and your DNA in his supercomputer – and 
if you don’t comply you soon won’t get medical services (read Fight for Your 
Health: Exposing the FDA’s Betrayal of America).  The experiment, known as the 
Critical Path Initiative, is now full steam ahead!  Of course, when Americans 
are injured and killed, von Eschenbach is pushing heavily to make sure no one 
can sue for damages.
   
  Andrew von Eschenbach is up to his eyeballs in Big Pharma connections.  As 
director of the National Cancer Institute  he perverted billions of taxpayer 
dollars away from solid science on desperately needed cancer research and into 
the coffers of his biotech and pharmaceutical pals, collectively known as 
C-Change. Now, he actually wants to turn part of the FDA into a drug company 
and even has a name for it, the Reagan-Udahl Center for Biomedical Research.  
Big Pharma co-sponsors, Senator Edward Kennedy (D-MA) and Mike Enzi (R-MT), are 
attempting to fund his new FDA drug company with taxpayer money, which could 
easily be funneled through the National Cancer Institute, into the hands of his 
C-Change friends, and then used to pay for FDA drug approvals  (S.3807).  In 
other words, the American taxpayer will soon be slated to pay for the 
development of all these new biotech drugs, and then pay exorbitant drug prices 
for the “privilege”  of being part of a human experiment.
   
  As temporary head of the FDA, von Eschenbach proved he could adeptly cover 
for drug companies, even when they blatantly lied to the FDA!  Such was the 
case with Trasylol, the Bayer heart bypass drug that needlessly kills and 
causes permanent kidney damage, which, thanks to von Eschenbach, is still on 
the market injuring Americans this holiday season.  
   
  Senator Charles Grassley (R-IA) was hot and heavy on the von Eschenbach 
protection agenda for  Big Pharma and had placed a hold on his nomination over 
von Eschenbach’s flagrant violations of law and the FDA’s cover-up of fraud 
relating to the Ketek antibiotic.  Von Eschenbach’s utter disdain of 
Congressional oversight should be a major concern to all Americans.  On 
December 7, 2006, this is what Grassley had to say:
   
  People ought to be ashamed of saying Dr. Andrew von Eschenbach has done a 
superb job in the position he is currently occupying [acting head of the 
FDA].…That is an 

Re: [Biofuel] was...More Weird Weather

[leo bunyan]

Good idea Jason
how would you suggest it be taken

Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   if papaya oil has cooling 
properties in the human  body, wouldnt glycerine do similar things? it lowers 
body temp and superhydrates  the blood. i have no idea about platelet counts, 
but it seems to  me it would be good for fever and dehydrating sicknesses like  
influenza. GASP! another possible tool against disease that doesnt  involve a 
vaccine! its terrorist i tell you!
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
   From:Manick Harris
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:32PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] More WeirdWeather
   

   Yikes I shall have to move from my coastal home to higherground or be 
awashed out to sea in not too distant future. Better earlier than
insufferably later, even if Iam round the world from record
snowfalls.Emissions affect whole world.Here is another piece from a doctorr
for the benefit of everybody:
   Difficult to believebut true !!!

Subject: FW: Dengue CureJuice of PapayaLeaf

Dear All,

I would like to share this interesting discoveryfrom a classmate's son
who has just recovered from dengue fever.Apparently, his son was in the
critical stage at the SJMC ICU when hispallet counts drops to 15 after
15 litres of blood transfusion. His fatherwas so worried that he 
   seeks
another friend's recommendation and his son wassaved. He confessed to
me that he give his son raw juice of the papayaleaves. From a pallet
count of
45 after 20 litres of blood transfusion,and after drinking the raw
papaya leaf juice, his pallet count jumpsinstantly to 135. Even the
doctors and nurses were surprised. After thesecond day he was
discharged. So he ask me to pass this good newsaround.
Accordingly it is raw papaya leaves, 2 pcs just cleaned and poundand
squeeze with filter cloth. You will only get one tablespoon per leaf.So
two tablespoon per serving once a day. Do not boil or cook or rinsewith
hot water, it will loose its strength. Only the leafy part and nostem
or sap. It is very bitter and you have to swallow it like Won LowKat.
But it works.
Papaya Juice - Cure for Dengue

You may haveheard this elsewhere but if not I am glad to inform you
that papaya juiceis a natural cure for dengue 
   
   fever. As dengue fever is
rampant now, I think it's goodto share this with all. A friend of mine
had dengue last year. It was avery serious situation for her as her
platelet count had dropped to 28,000after 3 days in hospital and water
has started to fill up her lung. She haddifficulty in breathing. She
was only 32-year old. Doctor says there's nocure for dengue. We just
have to wait for her body immune system to buildup resistance against
dengue and fight its own battle.  She alreadyhad 2 blood transfusion
and all of us were praying very hard as herplatelet continued to drop
since the first day she wasadmitted.

Fortunately her mother-in-law heard that papaya juice wouldhelp to
reduce the fever and got some papaya leaves, pounded them andsqueeze
the juice out for her. The next day, her platelet count startedto
increase, her fever subside. We continued to feed her with papayajuice
and she recovered after 3 
   
   days!!! Amazing but it's true.  It's believed
one'sbody would be overheated when one is down with dengue and that
also causedthe patient to have fever. Papaya juice has cooling effect.
Thus, it helpsto reduce the heatiness in one's body, thus the fever
will go away. I foundthat it's also good when one is having sore throat
or suffering fromheatiness.

Dr Sumedha Bajaj
BombayHospital
12, Marine Lines, Mumbai - 400 020,India.
022-2067676 * Fax No. 2080871 
   
   

robert and benita rabello[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Hello again!

I just read in the  paper that the dump of snow we got on Sunday broke 
the standing record for  snowfall in a single day, a record that has stood 
since the late 1800's when  local people began recording snowfall.  This 
was followed by arctic  outflow, which dropped temperatures precipitously, 
and guess what--on Monday  we set a record for low temperatures!

But this  climate change stuff isn't real, right?

robert luis rabello  The Edge of Justice  Adventure for Your Mind  
http://www.newadventure.caRanger Supercharger Project Page  
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[leo bunyan]

Hi D
It will be recorded in the same method as always.
The lie will satisfy those that don't want to or are incapable of thinking 
about it
And those of us that the lie dosen't sit comfortable with will have to scratch 
thru for the truth, but of course by then it will to late to do anything about 
it.
You probably don't believe me , but I am an optomist
Leo

D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Leo,

   Right on!  History as written in books is largely either incomplete or 
wrong, sometimes
intentionally so. I wonder how two historians, one leaning to the right and 
the other leaning to the
left, will record the history of the Bush/Cheney administration.

Peace, D. Mindock


- Original Message - 
From: leo bunyan
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


I'm still here D
Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same
Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools
as nobody seems to learn from it
Leo

D. Mindock  wrote:
Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I put that hoax article out there to see what the 
reponse would be.
I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't want him to suffer from 
spinmeisterism.
Peace, D. Mindock
- Original Message - 
From: Bob Molloy
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax


Hi All,
   Hoax indeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress is 
pure unadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history to 
make it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind the 
Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current scheme is to 
a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants in line.
We don't need to know any facts at all about the first colonists except the 
obvious that starving people are desperate. They will even stoop to working 
in the fields if necessary just to stay alive, which would suggest that 
political orientation is much lower on the individual's hierachy of needs. 
Yes, some did die in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, poor 
housing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can be 
sure of is that crop failure would be a likely outcome under alien 
conditions. We also know that the Founding Fathers learned quickly and soon 
adapted.
However, if an assessment of socialism as a working concept is needed let 
us - instead of making assumptions about the outcome of socialism in the 
first colony - take a look at how it actually works out in practice in 
modern states. See below for a re-run of the recent Scientific American 
article.
On the question of efficient production and use of resources, how about this 
fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, John Pilger's latest book: The US 
military budget for one year is the equivalent of $30,000 an hour for every 
hour since Christ was born.

Bob.

  From:
9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006
  
   [Printer-friendly version]

  The Social Welfare State, Beyond Ideology

  Are higher taxes and strong social safety nets antagonistic to a
  prosperous market economy? The evidence is now in.

  By Jeffrey D. Sachs

  One of the great challenges of sustainable development is to combine
  society's desires for economic prosperity and social security. For
  decades economists and politicians have debated how to reconcile the
  undoubted power of markets with the reassuring protections of social
  insurance. America's supply-siders claim that the best way to achieve
  well-being for America's poor is by spurring rapid economic growth
  and that the higher taxes needed to fund high levels of social
  insurance would cripple prosperity. Austrian-born free-market
  economist Friedrich August
  von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would be a road
  to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself.

  Most of the debate in the U.S. is clouded by vested interests and by
  ideology. Yet there is by now a rich empirical record to judge these
  issues scientifically. The evidence may be found by comparing a group
  of relatively free-market economies that have low to moderate rates
  of taxation and social outlays with a group of social-welfare states
  that have high rates of taxation and social outlays.

  Not coincidentally, the low-tax, high-income countries are mostly
  English-speaking ones that share a direct historical lineage with
  19th-century Britain and its theories of
  economic
  laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland,
  New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states
  are the Nordic social
  democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden, which have
  been governed by left-of-center social democratic parties for much or
  all of the post-World War II era. They combine a healthy respect for
  market forces with a strong commitment to antipoverty programs

Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[leo bunyan]

I'm still here D
Funny how history repeats itself or stays the same
Really it's a bit pointless teaching history in schools 
as nobody seems to learn from it
Leo

D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Thanks Bob. Good input!!! I  put 
that hoax article out there to see what the reponse would be.
 I hope Leo gets your comeback. I don't  want him to suffer from spinmeisterism.
 Peace, D. Mindock
- Original Message - 
   From:Bob Molloy
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 3:22PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The GreatThanksgiving Hoax
   

   Hi All,
  Hoaxindeed. This revisionist version of the Pilgrims Progress 
is pureunadulterated neo-con spin. Our masters continually rewrite history 
tomake it fit their political ambitions. As always, the aim is to blind
the Great Unwashed and line them up behind whatever their current schemeis 
to a) stay on top, b) hog all the goodies, and c) keep the peasants inline. 
   We don't need to know any facts at all aboutthe first colonists except 
the obvious that starving people aredesperate. They will even stoop to 
working in the fields if necessary just tostay alive, which would suggest 
that political orientation is muchlower on the individual's hierachy of 
needs. Yes, some diddie in the first years. How many of inherited diseases, 
poorhousing, worse diet and plain homesickness is just a guess. What we can 
   be sure of is that crop failure would be a likelyoutcome under alien 
conditions. We also know that theFounding Fathers learned quickly and soon 
adapted.  
   However, if an assessment of socialism as aworking concept is needed let 
us - instead of making assumptions about theoutcome of socialism in the 
first colony - take a look at how it actuallyworks out in practice in 
modern states. See below for a re-run of therecent Scientific American 
article.
   On the question of efficient production and useof resources, how about 
this fact (taken from Freedom Next Time, JohnPilger's latest book: The 
US military budget for one year is theequivalent of $30,000 an hour for 
every hour since Christ wasborn.  

   Bob.

 From: 
  http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000AF3D5-6DC9-152E-A
  9F183414B7FScientific American, Oct. 16, 2006
 http://www.precaution.org/lib/06/prn_nordic_economies_work.061016.htm
   [Printer-friendly version]

 The Social Welfare State, BeyondIdeology

 Are higher taxes and strong social safetynets antagonistic to a 
  prosperous market economy? The evidence isnow in.

 By http://www.powells.com/biblio/17-1594200459-8JeffreyD. Sachs

 One of the great challenges of sustainabledevelopment is to combine 
  society's desires for economic prosperityand social security. For 
  decades economists and politicians havedebated how to reconcile the 
  undoubted power of markets with thereassuring protections of social 
  insurance. America's supply-sidersclaim that the best way to achieve 
  well-being for America's poor isby spurring rapid economic growth 
  and that the higher taxes neededto fund high levels of social 
  insurance would cripple prosperity.Austrian-born free-market 
  economist http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_HayekFriedrichAugust 
  von Hayek suggested in the 1940s that high taxation would bea road 
  to serfdom, a threat to freedom itself.

 Most of the debate in the U.S. is cloudedby vested interests and by 
  ideology. Yet there is by now a richempirical record to judge these 
  issues scientifically. The evidencemay be found by comparing a group 
  of relatively free-marketeconomies that have low to moderate rates 
  of taxation and socialoutlays with a group of social-welfare states 
  that have high ratesof taxation and social outlays.

 Not coincidentally, the low-tax,high-income countries are mostly 
  English-speaking ones that share adirect historical lineage with 
  19th-century Britain and itstheories of 
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire_economicseconomic
  laissez-faire. These countries include Australia, Canada, Ireland,
  New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. The high-tax, high-income states
  are the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countriesNordicsocial 
  democracies, notably Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden,which have 
  been governed by left-of-center social democraticparties for much or 
  all of the post-World War II era. They combinea healthy respect for 
  market forces with a strong commitment toantipoverty programs. 
  Budgetary outlays for social purposes averagearound 27 percent of 
  gross domestic product (GDP) in the Nordiccountries and just 17 
  percent of GDP in the English-speakingcountries.

 

Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences

[leo bunyan]

good to find americans that can laugh at themselves

Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   HA HA HA!!! oh man! this is 
really funny. and the  jabs at americans are totally true... (BTW i am american 
sad to  say)
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:11AM
   Subject: [Biofuel] The CulturalDifferences
   


Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. 
Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when
abroad. 
Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. 
Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. 
Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. 
Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to 
your club. 
Americans: Believe that people should look out for  take care of
themselves. 
Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. 

Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their beer. 
Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic 
to the point of blindness. 
Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be
bothered to sing them. 
Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the
anthem. 

Americans: Spend most of their lives
 glued to the idiot box. 
Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American 
channels. 
Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. 
Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, 
to Britain, where everybody loves them. 

Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and
basketball. 
Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. 
Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, 
hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. 
Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in 
every sport they play them in. 

Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it English. 
Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it English. 
Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. 
Aussies: Add G'day, mate and a heavy accent to everything they say 
in
 an attempt to get laid. 

Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an 
island. 
Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an
island. 
Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas,  liquor 
in a backwards country. 
Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas,  liquor 
in a backwards country. 

Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. 
Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. 
Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. 
Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. 

Americans: Seem to think that poverty  failure are morally suspect. 
Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. 
Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
inherited things. 
Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers
   Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com   
 
   

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Re: [Biofuel] The Cultural Differences

[leo bunyan]

I know how you feel
all we can do is keep going down the right track and not join them

Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i dont find my country amusing, and 
-with  exceptions- am not proud of its people. it is rather deplorable if you 
ask me.  horrors abroad, idiocy at home, and noone willing to stand up and say 
HEY  DUMBASS! YOU GOT IT WRONG! GO FIX IT! and make some real changes for the 
 better. believe me ive been saying it for a while, and all i get are funny  
looks.
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 6:46PM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The CulturalDifferences
   

good to find americans that can laugh atthemselves

Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   HA HA HA!!! oh man! 
this is really funny. and  the jabs at americans are totally true... (BTW i 
am american sad to  say)
 Jason
ICQ#:  154998177
MSN:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent:Friday, November 24, 2006 4:11 AM
   Subject:[Biofuel] The Cultural Differences
   


Aussies: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad. 
Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when
abroad. 
Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad. 
Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad. 
Aussies: Believe you should look out for your mates. 
Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to 
your club. 
Americans: Believe that people should look out for  take care of
themselves. 
Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job. 

Aussies: Are extremely patriotic to their
 beer. 
Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic 
to the point of blindness. 
Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be
bothered to sing them. 
Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the
anthem. 

Americans: Spend most of their lives
 glued to the idiot box. 
Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American 
channels. 
Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels. 
Aussies: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there watches, 
to Britain, where everybody loves them. 

Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and
basketball. 
Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby. 
Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, 
hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball. 
Aussies: Will jabber on incessantly about how
 they beat the Poms in 
every sport they play them in. 

Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it English. 
Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it English. 
Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans. 
Aussies: Add G'day, mate and a heavy accent to everything they say 
in
 an attempt to get laid. 

Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an 
island. 
Aussies: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an
island. 
Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas,  liquor 
in a backwards country. 
Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas,  liquor 
in a backwards country. 

Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer. 
Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer. 
Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss. 
Aussies: Drink anything with alcohol in it. 

Americans: Seem to
 think that poverty  failure are morally suspect. 
Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect. 
Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
inherited things. 
Aussies: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers
   Send instant messages to your online friends
http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
   
   
-

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 messages):
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11/27/2006 4:00 AM
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11/27/2006 4:00  AM

Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving

[leo bunyan]

Thanks D
It sure goes a long way back

D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Leo,
T-day is something that  started with the pilgrims who came over 
 from Europe to escape religious  persecution. At least that's what I
 think. Halloween is an old pagan holiday  that refuses to go away.
 It is also a time to celebrate the  harvest of crops too. So the two
 have blended. This is my take on it. But  like most gringos I don't really 
 don't know as much about our history  as I'd like. 
 Halloween seems to be growing in  popularity here in the USA. I have
 a couple friends who are witches,  the nice kind. 
 Peace and light, D. Mindock
- Original Message - 
   From:leobunyan 
   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
   Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:01AM
   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] HappyThanksgiving
   

Thanksgiving is an american thing
Down here in Oz we don'thave it
What does it mean???
And while we are at it 
what ishalloween all about
Leo

D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:   Thanks, Tom. Hope 
you  had a good one. We did.
 My wife received a gift  of a huge chunk of pumpkin
 yesterday. So she's making her fab  soup with it. Looking forward
 to some soup tomorrow. I got some  Michelob Light and some artisan
 bread, with ghee, to go with  it.
 Peace  light, D.  Mindock
-Original Message - 
   From:ThomasKelly 
   To:biofuel 
   Sent:Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:16 AM
   Subject:[Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving
   

   Happy Thanksgiving to All,
May we allenjoy our Pumpkin Soup, a slab of Crusty Bread, 
and our favoriterefreshment   .   James Phelps' suggestion of a 
   Guiness appeals to me. 
 Best Wishes to All,
  Tom
   
   
-


   
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Re: [Biofuel] The Great Thanksgiving Hoax

[leo bunyan]

Very interesting
Thanks D

D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Leo,
   Here's something about the  Thanksgiving here in the USA. It just appeared in
 my email inbox.  The story does have  a moral, whether it's correct or not,
 I not qualified to say.
 Peace, D. Mindock
  
 11/23/2006  The Great Thanksgiving Hoax
by Richard J.  Marbury 
 Each year at this time school children all over America are  taught the 
official Thanksgiving story, and newspapers, radio, TV, and magazines  devote 
vast amounts of time and space to it. It is all very colorful and  fascinating. 
 It is also very deceiving. This official story is nothing  like what really 
happened. It is a fairy tale, a whitewashed and sanitized  collection of 
half-truths which divert attention away from Thanksgiving's real  meaning. 
 The official story has the pilgrims boarding the Mayflower,  coming to America 
and establishing the Plymouth colony in the winter of 1620-21.  This first 
winter is hard, and half the colonists die. But the survivors are  hard- 
working and tenacious, and they learn new farming techniques from the  Indians. 
The harvest of 1621 is bountiful. The Pilgrims hold a celebration, and  give 
thanks to God. They are grateful for the wonderful new abundant land He has  
given them. 
 The official story then has the Pilgrims living more or less  happily ever 
after, each year repeating the first Thanksgiving. Other early  colonies also 
have hard times at first, but they soon prosper and adopt the  annual tradition 
of giving thanks for this prosperous new land called America.  
 The problem with this official story is that the harvest of  1621 was not 
bountiful, nor were the colonists hard-working or tenacious. 1621  was a famine 
year and many of the colonists were lazy thieves. 
 In his History of Plymouth Plantation, the governor  of the colony, William 
Bradford, reported that the colonists went hungry for  years, because they 
refused to work in the fields. They preferred instead to  steal food. He says 
the colony was riddled with “corruption,” and with  “confusion and discontent.” 
The crops were small because “much was stolen both  by night and day, before it 
became scarce eatable.” 
 In the harvest feasts of 1621 and 1622, “all had their  hungry bellies 
filled,” but only briefly. The prevailing condition during those  years was not 
the abundance the official story claims; it was famine and death.  The first 
“Thanksgiving” was not so much a celebration as it was the last meal  of 
condemned men. 
 But in subsequent years something changes. The harvest of  1623 was different. 
Suddenly, “instead of famine now God gave them plenty,”  Bradford wrote, “and 
the face of things was changed, to the rejoicing of the  hearts of many, for 
which they blessed God.” Thereafter, he wrote, “any general  want or famine 
hath not been amongst them since to this day.” In fact, in 1624,  so much food 
was produced that the colonists were able to begin exporting  corn.
 What happened?
 After the poor harvest of 1622, writes Bradford, “they began  to think how 
they might raise as much corn as they could, and obtain a better  crop.” They 
began to question their form of economic organization. 
 This had required that “all profits  benefits that are  got by trade, 
working, fishing, or any other means” were to be placed in the  common stock of 
the colony, and that, “all such persons as are of this colony,  are to have 
their meat, drink, apparel, and all provisions out of the common  stock.” A 
person was to put into the common stock all he could, and take out  only what 
he needed. 
 This “from each according to his ability, to each according  to his need” was 
an early form of socialism, and it is why the Pilgrims were  starving. Bradford 
writes that “young men that are most able and fit for labor  and service” 
complained about being forced to “spend their time and strength to  work for 
other men's wives and children.” Also, “the strong, or man of parts,  had no 
more in division of victuals and clothes, than he that was weak.” So the  young 
and strong refused to work, and the total amount of food produced was  never 
adequate. 
 To rectify this situation, in 1623 Bradford abolished  socialism. He gave each 
household a parcel of land and told them they could keep  what they produced, 
or trade it away as they saw fit. In other words, he  replaced socialism with a 
free market, and that was the end of famines.  
 Many early groups of colonists set up socialist states, all  with the same 
terrible results. At Jamestown, established in 1607, out of every  shipload of 
settlers that arrived, less than half would survive their first  twelve months 
in America. Most of the work was being done by only one-fifth of  the men, the 
other four-fifths choosing to be parasites. In the winter of  1609-10, called 
“The Starving Time,” the population fell from five-hundred to  sixty. 
 Then the Jamestown colony was converted to a 

Re: [Biofuel] Happy Thanksgiving

[leo bunyan]

Thanksgiving is an american thing
Down here in Oz we don't have it
What does it mean???
And while we are at it 
what is halloween all about
Leo

D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Thanks, Tom. Hope you had a  good 
one. We did.
 My wife received a gift of  a huge chunk of pumpkin
 yesterday. So she's making her fab soup  with it. Looking forward
 to some soup tomorrow. I got some  Michelob Light and some artisan
 bread, with ghee, to go with  it.
 Peace  light, D.  Mindock
- Original Message - 
   From:ThomasKelly 
   To: biofuel 
   Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:16AM
   Subject: [Biofuel] HappyThanksgiving
   

   Happy Thanksgiving to All,
May we allenjoy our Pumpkin Soup, a slab of Crusty Bread, and our 
favoriterefreshment   .   James Phelps' suggestion of aGuiness 
appeals to me. 
 Best Wishes to All,
  Tom
  

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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Allah or Jesus?

[leo bunyan]

I'm so glad this has come up again
As I have another beaut joke 
and seeing as my last one went down so well
 Here it is
And then there was the dyslexic devil worshipper
He sold his soul to Santa
Boom Boom
Have fun

Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think so.  Alot of the native 
american rituals involved self mutilation in various forms, and I suspect they 
are similar or older or origin to Judaism.  And the emphasis on guilt from some 
christian sects (Catholicism comes to mind) could also be described as mental 
self mutilation, so I'm not sure that Judaism as any particular claim to that. 

On 11/23/06, Alon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi zeke
 little check up on reality pleas...
 Isn't judaism the first religion of self  mutilation.
 mutilation that could generate hidden and un hidden  hostilities within a 
person or a state?
 Alon.

  
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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[leo bunyan]

Just got off the dogbone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz
200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on
Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly mony
William do yop have any info on making it from wood?
Leo

VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is my understanding that 
most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene (petroleum). 
 I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I am surprised it 
took so long for them to do so.  They probably will come back down in the near 
future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis (destructive 
heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly done since it is 
more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


 Hello All,
  Did I miss the news?
  Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
 recently?
 
  I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous price
 ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
 increase in a few months?
  I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a billing
 mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.  
 
Thanks,
  Tom
 

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Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?

[leo bunyan]

Of course
check the library
Thanks Jim

JAMES PHELPS [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/wood_alcohol.html
Jim


From: leo bunyan 
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 09:12:42 +1100 (EST)

Just got off the dogbone to my supplier here in south coast of NSW Oz
200liters=$314.15 + GST so wack another10% on
Thats all in Oz dollars which is about the equivalent value of monopoly 
mony
William do yop have any info on making it from wood?
Leo

VAN DER SLUYS, WILLIAM  wrote: It is my understanding 
that most of the methanol available in the US is produced from ethylene 
(petroleum).  I'm not surprising that methanol prices have gone up, but, I 
am surprised it took so long for them to do so.  They probably will come 
back down in the near future since oil prices have moderated.

The other way to make methanol is from wood, by way of pyrolysis 
(destructive heating which also produces charcoal) but this is not commonly 
done since it is more difficult and costly.

- Original Message -
From: Thomas Kelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Biofuel] Methanol Price Increase?


  Hello All,
   Did I miss the news?
   Has there been a significant increase in the price of methanol
  recently?
 
   I just got the bill for a delivery (two  55gal barrels). Previous 
price
  ( July): $2.60 USD/gallon; current bill: $3.54 USD/ gallon    35%
  increase in a few months?
   I'll call my supplier in a little while ...  maybe it's just a 
billing
  mistake. I am just hoping someone has some info.
 
 Thanks,
   Tom
 

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Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[leo bunyan]

Why would you want to cure scepticism?
It's great fun

Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I cured myself of scepticism using a 
Rife machine.

Joe Street wrote:

 I Tom;

 I was thinking more on this after I posted and realized just what you 
 are saying.  I asked myself ok what if heterodynes 
  were generated
 in some object smaller than a micron and I was looking at it with a 
 conventional microscope.  I suppose that I would see a light source 
 but I wouldn't be able to resolve it's shape due to the limitations of 
 the optics. More comments below...


 Thomas Kelly wrote:

 Joe,
  You wrote:
 This would produce harmonic mixing and would result in the 
 generation of two new wavelengths which are the sum and difference 
 frequencies of the original light sources. 
  
  I don't plan to try it at home, but I don't doubt this to be true.
  I can't see how stimulating an organism to emit light would get 
 around the difficulties of resolution at magnifications necessary to 
 see viruses    alive or not. 
  Organisms that emit light naturally are still subject to the 
 limitations nature seems to have imposed on our various light 
 microscopes. Fluoroscopic techniques   binding fluorescent 
 antibodies to cells ... allows for ID/sorting of cells 
 including microbes, but the glowing cells can only be magnified to 
 about 1000X (light microscope)  1400X with UV microscopes.

 Exactly.

  
  I am curious about the harmonic mixing you refer to.
  The monochromatic light sources   laser generated?

 They could be although they wouldn't have to be monochromatic. A broad 
 band light source containing spectral components that are suitably 
 spaced to create the difference frequency we need ( in the visible 
 spectrum) would work fine. So then I asked myself why I have never 
 seen anything curious like this.  We were talking about mixing two UV 
 wavelengths (due to the ability of the short wavelengths to offer 
 superior resolution) but if harmonic mixing could take place as we are 
 talking about it could happen with wavelengths from any part of the 
 visible or invisible spectrum.  Your typical optical scope uses a 
 halogen bulb which is a heavy radiator in the infrared. Harmonic 
 mixing of sub visible spectra should result in heterodynes (sum 
 frequencies) up in the visible. I mean light from the infrared end ( 
 say 900 nm) could mix with light from the UV end ( say 400 nm) to 
 result in a difference frequency of 450 THz which would have a 
 wavelength of 660 nm right in the red wavelength area of the visible 
 spectrum. So why has no-one noticed this? The answer is probably due 
 to switching speed.  In a semiconducting junction pairs of charge 
 carriers are formed when a current flows. When the wave polarity 
 reverses these charge carriers have to move to prevent current flow in 
 the opposite direction ( this is the essence of the switching action 
 which IS the non linearity which creates the heterodyne effect) If the 
 charge carriers cannot move fast enough in the material to perform 
 this function then the material will not act as a harmonic mixer. 
 Switching speeds would have to be exceedingly fast to heterodyne 
 light.  For example for a 500nm wavelength ( mid visible spectrum) the 
 frequency of this light wave would be 600 e12 Hz! (THz)  The fastest 
 semiconductors manufactured are about 10 000 times slower than this 
 (60 Ghz to maybe 100 Ghz). Superconducting josephson junctions are 
 touted to be about ten times faster than conventional semiconductors 
 but that still only gets us up to 1 THz. I was initially wondering if 
 something in a DNA strand could act as a switch at these frequencies 
 but of course if it were possible we would see the colours of the 
 rainbow emmanating from some points in the cell nucleus which would be 
 too small to resolve. The world would probably look quite different if 
 harmonic mixing of light was happening anywhere!

  Only two wavelengths generated?   one the sum and one the 
 difference of the original wavelengths No heat?

 Some heat would be dissipated as there are always losses in 
 materials.  The amount would equal the energy in the incoming spectra 
 minus the energy in the radiated spectra.

   I ask about the heat because the brightness of the field of 
 view of a microscope is inversely proportional to the magnification. 
 At 6000X a very high illumination, or emission of light would be 
 necessary in order to see anything. Heat could be bad.
   Would the object continue to emit light after the sources were 
 stopped (a la glow in the dark frisbees ...  electrons doing quantum 
 leaps)? Would there be pulses or continuous flow?

 No the radiated light would only be the result of mixing of components 
 in the incomming spectra. It would be continuous if the lamp was on 
 continuously.

  
  This would require that both the source waves be focused onto a 
 point 

Re: [Biofuel] Curing Cancer with the Rife machine

[leo bunyan]

Apparently 46.7% of statistices are made up on the spot!!!

Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Well according to the official 
numbers 43% of all statistics are totally worthlessso where does that leave 
your argument?
 Plus you haven't provided any data to back up your argument.  You stand in 
violation of list rules bud. Besides your post was very skeptical.  Yep no 
doubt you are still sick. Try colloidal silver, I hear it cures anything.
 ;)
 
 Mike Weaver wrote:

I'm not sure a second opinion is called for.  I really haven't seen any 
evidence second opinions are even effective.  Most studies show that 
fewer than 23% of second opinions are even useful.

-Weaver

Joe Street wrote:

  

Better get a second opinion, I don't think the cure 'took'.

j;)

Mike Weaver wrote:



I cured myself of scepticism using a Rife machine.

Joe Street wrote:

 

  

I Tom;

I was thinking more on this after I posted and realized just what you 
are saying.  I asked myself ok what if heterodynes 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterodyne were generated
in some object smaller than a micron and I was looking at it with a 
conventional microscope.  I suppose that I would see a light source 
but I wouldn't be able to resolve it's shape due to the limitations of 
the optics. More comments below...


Thomas Kelly wrote:

   



Joe,
You wrote:
   This would produce harmonic mixing and would result in the 
generation of two new wavelengths which are the sum and difference 
frequencies of the original light sources. 

I don't plan to try it at home, but I don't doubt this to be true.
I can't see how stimulating an organism to emit light would get 
around the difficulties of resolution at magnifications necessary to 
see viruses    alive or not. 
Organisms that emit light naturally are still subject to the 
limitations nature seems to have imposed on our various light 
microscopes. Fluoroscopic techniques   binding fluorescent 
antibodies to cells ... allows for ID/sorting of cells 
including microbes, but the glowing cells can only be magnified to 
about 1000X (light microscope)  1400X with UV microscopes.
 

  
  
Exactly.

   



I am curious about the harmonic mixing you refer to.
The monochromatic light sources   laser generated?
 

  
  
They could be although they wouldn't have to be monochromatic. A broad 
band light source containing spectral components that are suitably 
spaced to create the difference frequency we need ( in the visible 
spectrum) would work fine. So then I asked myself why I have never 
seen anything curious like this.  We were talking about mixing two UV 
wavelengths (due to the ability of the short wavelengths to offer 
superior resolution) but if harmonic mixing could take place as we are 
talking about it could happen with wavelengths from any part of the 
visible or invisible spectrum.  Your typical optical scope uses a 
halogen bulb which is a heavy radiator in the infrared. Harmonic 
mixing of sub visible spectra should result in heterodynes (sum 
frequencies) up in the visible. I mean light from the infrared end ( 
say 900 nm) could mix with light from the UV end ( say 400 nm) to 
result in a difference frequency of 450 THz which would have a 
wavelength of 660 nm right in the red wavelength area of the visible 
spectrum. So why has no-one noticed this? The answer is probably due 
to switching speed.  In a semiconducting junction pairs of charge 
carriers are formed when a current flows. When the wave polarity 
reverses these charge carriers have to move to prevent current flow in 
the opposite direction ( this is the essence of the switching action 
which IS the non linearity which creates the heterodyne effect) If the 
charge carriers cannot move fast enough in the material to perform 
this function then the material will not act as a harmonic mixer. 
Switching speeds would have to be exceedingly fast to heterodyne 
light.  For example for a 500nm wavelength ( mid visible spectrum) the 
frequency of this light wave would be 600 e12 Hz! (THz)  The fastest 
semiconductors manufactured are about 10 000 times slower than this 
(60 Ghz to maybe 100 Ghz). Superconducting josephson junctions are 
touted to be about ten times faster than conventional semiconductors 
but that still only gets us up to 1 THz. I was initially wondering if 
something in a DNA strand could act as a switch at these frequencies 
but of course if it were possible we would see the colours of the 
rainbow emmanating from some points in the cell nucleus which would be 
too small to resolve. The world would probably look quite different if 
harmonic mixing of light was happening anywhere!

   



Only two wavelengths generated?   one the sum and one the 
difference of the original 

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Allah or Jesus?

[leo bunyan]

The amount of killing and wars had in the name of god be it alah god buddah etcdoes not reflect any of the love and peace that these religons preach.It is time to stop the charade and make these religions answerable to what they stand forLeoMK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Can I get the List's opinion on the  following that was forwarded to me? I am in almost complete ignorance of  the Muslim religion. Thanks. Mike DuPree  - Original Message -  From: "Mendoza, Ray R [NTK]"  [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "Golf Teacher" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 2:47  PM Subject: FW: Allah or  Jesus?  Allah or Jesus..?  Something  very interesting to share with you...  Rick MATHEWS is a well  known leader in prison ministry.  The Muslim religion in the  fastest
 growing religion per capita in the United States, especially in  the minority races!!!  Allah or Jesus? By Rick Mathews   Last month I attended my annual training session that's required  for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the  training session there was a presentation by three speakers representing  the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each  of their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic  Imam had to say.  The Imam gave a great presentation of  the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations,  time was provided for questions and answers.  When it  was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please,  correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that most Imams and clerics of  Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against
 the infidels of the  world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a command to all  Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the CASE; can  you give me the definition of an infidel?"  There was no  disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied,  "Non-believers!" I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this  straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone  who is not of your faith so they can have a place in Heaven. Is that  correct?"  The _expression_ on his face changed from one of  authority and command to that of "a little boy who had just been caught  with his hand in the cookie jar." He sheepishly replied, "Yes".   I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine  Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or  Dr. Stanley
 ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to  guarantee them a place in Heaven!" The Imam was speechless. I continued,  "I also have problem with being your 'friend' when you and your brother  clerics are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a  question. Would you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in  order for you to go to Heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you  because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be there with  me?"  You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head  in shame. Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of  the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way  of dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the  Muslims' beliefs.  In twenty years there will be enough  Muslim voters in the U.S. to elect the President! I think everyone in 
 the US should be required to read this but with the liberal justice  system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be widely  publicized.  Please pass this on to all your e-mail  contacts.  This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathews, is  a well known leader in prison ministry. Check out the new AOL.  Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to  millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and  more.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] FDA sued over mercury in medicines

[leo bunyan]

True DougBut I really think it is the system of government that we need to change.By the time an idea has made it to legislation it has been changed in every concievable way that it does not represent its original.The greens wont change a great deal they are probably our best bet out of the parties availiable.Maybe it is time for a government of independents that way they would be forced to get on with each other.This westminster system give to much control to the major partiesLeoDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, the more I hear about the 'FREE' Trade agreement our illustrious PM organised with the yanks, the more I have to agree with you. We did not get as good a deal as the Mexicans or Canadians! ( they are complaining).  Once we get a 'real' Australian Government in power,
 at least we can tear up that agreement with 6 months notice. (We need Green Power I think: the other bunch of turkeys are just as bad as the conservatives!)regards DougOn Wednesday 15 November 2006 9:53, leo bunyan wrote: Amerians arn't the only naive people on the planet Australians are doing a good job of being just as if not more naive Something we seem to be proud of Sigh Sigh Leo Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: FDA is the enforcement arm of the AMA. They take care of the competition. The public be damned. Americans have to be the most naive people in the western world.   Sigh   Kirk "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I wonder how the FDA will wiggle out of this lawsuit. Peace, D. Mindock
 --  http://www.aapsonline.org/nod/newsofday357.php  News of the Day ... In Perspective11/13/2006   FDA sued over mercury in medicines On Oct 27, the Coalition for Mercury-free Drugs (CoMeD) filed an amended complaint in U.S. federal court, disputing a Sept 26 FDA response defending the use of mercury in medications. The lawsuit, originally filed in August 2006, asks the court to force the FDA to comply with existing law and regulations and provide proof of the safety and efficacy of mercury in drugs. The suit was filed because the FDA failed to answer issues raised in a citizen petition filed on Aug 4, 2004, by CoMeD representatives. Mercury is found in at least 45 different  prescribed or over-the-counter drugs, including eye ointments, nasal sprays, and vaccines, most importantly, flu
 vaccines administered to children and pregnant women. In a 1999 internal email, obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request, an FDA official wrote that the agency’s failure to evaluate the cumulative amount of mercury in medicine “…will raise questions about FDA being ‘asleep at the switch’ for decades by allowing a potentially hazardous compound to remain…and not forcing manufacturers to exclude it from new products….” In a second email, the same official wrote: “…the greatest point of vulnerability on this issue is that the systematic review…by the FDA could have been done years ago and on an ongoing basis.” In a letter by FDA Acting Assistant Commissioner for Policy Jeffrey Shuren, denying the CoMeD petition, the “admission that the FDA had no substantive evidence confirming the safety of mercury in medicine was stunning,” stated CoMeD. 
 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
 http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Allah or Jesus?

[leo bunyan]

Yeah Joe I understand where you are coming from
But unfortunately that wouldn't make us any better than them.
It is hard to bring these religions to accountability.
I don't waste much time on god and religion but when a jw or morman come 
knocking on my door, interrupting my Saturday morning hangover, instead of 
politely turning them away I start to question their church's stance on global 
warming and the invasion of Iraq. That usually sends them packing as they 
realise that the ethics of their belief are being questioned, that to me is 
bringing these religions to accountability and in a passive way.
By the way, if the reasons that Bush invaded Iraq was for WMD (weapons of mass 
destruction) and ITNOG (in the name of god) and no WMD's have been found does 
Bush have to produce proof that he had permission from god to invade. Be good 
to hear it from god's mouth.
Leo

Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Yeah lets 'roll up our sleves 
and FORCE them religions to be accountable to their tenets'  LOL! classic.  So 
are you preaching peace then Leo?
 
 Joe
 
 leo bunyan wrote:
 The amount of killing and wars had in the name of god be it alah god buddah etc
 does not reflect any of the love and peace that these religons preach.It is 
time to stop the  charade  and  make these religions  answerable  to what they 
stand for
 Leo
   
   MK DuPree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Can I get the 
List's opinion on the following that was forwarded to me?  I am in almost 
complete ignorance of the Muslim religion.  Thanks.  Mike DuPree
  
 - Original Message -  From: Mendoza, Ray R [NTK] [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
 To: Golf Teacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 2:47 PM
 Subject: FW: Allah or Jesus?
 
 
 
  Allah or Jesus..?
  
  Something very interesting to share with you...
  
  Rick MATHEWS is a well known leader in prison ministry.
  
  The Muslim religion in the fastest growing religion per capita in the
  United States, especially in the minority races!!!
  
  Allah or Jesus? By Rick Mathews
  
  Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for
  maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training
  session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the
  Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of
  their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam
  had to say.
  
  The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete
  with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions
  and answers.
  
  When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked:
  Please, correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that most Imams and
  clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the
  infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel, (which is a
  command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in heaven. If
  that's the CASE; can you give me the definition of an infidel?
  
  There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he
  replied, Non-believers! I responded, So, let me make sure I have this
  straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone
  who is not of your faith so they can have a place in Heaven. Is that
  correct?
  
  The expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to
  that of a little boy who had just been caught with his hand in the
  cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, Yes.
  
  I then stated, Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope
  John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr.
  Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to guarantee
  them a place in Heaven! The Imam was speechless. I continued, I also
  have problem with being your 'friend' when you and your brother clerics
  are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a question. Would
  you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in order for you to
  go to Heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to
  Heaven and He wants you to be there with me?
  
  You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.
  Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the
  'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of
  dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslims'
  beliefs.
  
  In twenty years there will be enough Muslim voters in the U.S. to elect
  the President! I think everyone in the US should be required to
  read this but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the
  ACLU, there is no way this will be widely publicized.
  
  Please pass this on to all your e-mail contacts.
  
  This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathews, is a well known
  leader in prison ministry.
  Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
  security tools, free access

Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Allah or Jesus?

[leo bunyan]

That's great I'll try that one!!!
Then there was the  dyslexic insomniac agnostic that used to lay awake at night 
wondering if there really was a dog!!!

Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I start talking about the Flying 
Spaghetti Monster...

leo bunyan wrote:

 Yeah Joe I understand where you are coming from
 But unfortunately that wouldn't make us any better than them.
 It is hard to bring these religions to accountability.
 I don't waste much time on god and religion but when a jw or morman 
 come knocking on my door, interrupting my Saturday morning hangover, 
 instead of politely turning them away I start to question their 
 church's stance on global warming and the invasion of Iraq. That 
 usually sends them packing as they realise that the ethics of their 
 belief are being questioned, that to me is bringing these religions to 
 accountability and in a passive way.
 By the way, if the reasons that Bush invaded Iraq was for WMD (weapons 
 of mass destruction) and ITNOG (in the name of god) and no WMD's have 
 been found does Bush have to produce proof that he had permission from 
 god to invade. Be good to hear it from god's mouth.
 Leo

 */Joe Street /* wrote:

 Yeah lets 'roll up our sleves and FORCE them religions to be
 accountable to their tenets'  LOL! classic.  So are you preaching
 peace then Leo?

 Joe

 leo bunyan wrote:

 The amount of killing and wars had in the name of god be it alah
 god buddah etc
 does not reflect any of the love and peace that these religons
 preach.It is time to stop the  charade  and  make these
 religions  answerable  to what they stand for
 Leo

 */MK DuPree /* wrote:

 Can I get the List's opinion on the following that was
 forwarded to me?  I am in almost complete ignorance of the
 Muslim religion.  Thanks.  Mike DuPree
  
 - Original Message -
 From: Mendoza, Ray R [NTK] 
 
 To: Golf Teacher 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 2:47 PM
 Subject: FW: Allah or Jesus?

  Allah or Jesus..?
 
  Something very interesting to share with you...
 
  Rick MATHEWS is a well known leader in prison ministry.
 
  The Muslim religion in the fastest growing religion per
 capita in the
  United States, especially in the minority races!!!
 
  Allah or Jesus? By Rick Mathews
 
  Last month I attended my annual training session that's
 required for
  maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the
 training
  session there was a presentation by three speakers
 representing the
  Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained
 each of
  their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what the
 Islamic Imam
  had to say.
 
  The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam,
 complete
  with a video. After the presentations, time was provided
 for questions
  and answers.
 
  When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and
 asked:
  Please, correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that most
 Imams and
  clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war]
 against the
  infidels of the world and, that by killing an infidel,
 (which is a
  command to all Muslims) they are assured of a place in
 heaven. If
  that's the CASE; can you give me the definition of an infidel?
 
  There was no disagreement with my statements and, without
 hesitation, he
  replied, Non-believers! I responded, So, let me make
 sure I have this
  straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to
 kill everyone
  who is not of your faith so they can have a place in
 Heaven. Is that
  correct?
 
  The expression on his face changed from one of authority
 and command to
  that of a little boy who had just been caught with his
 hand in the
  cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, Yes.
 
  I then stated, Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to
 imagine Pope
  John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your
 faith or Dr.
  Stanley ordering all Protestants to do the same in order to
 guarantee
  them a place in Heaven! The Imam was speechless. I
 continued, I also
  have problem with being your 'friend' when you and your
 brother clerics
  are telling your followers to kill me! Let me ask you a
 question. Would
  you rather have your Allah, who tells you to kill me in
 order for you to
  go to Heaven, or my Jesus who tells me to love you

Re: [Biofuel] FDA sued over mercury in medicines

[leo bunyan]

Amerians arn't the only naive people on the planetAustralians are doing a good job of being just as if not more naiveSomething we seem to be proud ofSigh SighLeoKirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FDA is the enforcement arm of the AMA. They take care of the competition. The public be damned.  Americans have to be the most naive people in the western world.Sigh  Kirk"D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I wonder how the
 FDA will wiggle out of this lawsuit. Peace, D. Mindock--  http://www.aapsonline.org/nod/newsofday357.php  News of the Day ... In Perspective11/13/2006   FDA sued over mercury in medicines  On Oct 27, the Coalition for Mercury-free Drugs (CoMeD) filed an amended complaint in U.S. federal court, disputing a Sept 26 FDA response defending the use of mercury in medications.   The lawsuit, originally filed in August 2006, asks the court to force the FDA to comply with
 existing law and regulations and provide proof of the safety and efficacy of mercury in drugs. The suit was filed because the FDA failed to answer issues raised in a citizen petition filed on Aug 4, 2004, by CoMeD representatives.   Mercury is found in at least 45 different  prescribed or over-the-counter drugs, including eye ointments, nasal sprays, and vaccines, most importantly, flu vaccines administered to children and pregnant women.   In a 1999 internal email, obtained under a Freedom of Information Act request, an FDA official wrote that the agency’s failure to evaluate the cumulative amount of mercury in medicine “…will raise questions about FDA being ‘asleep at the switch’ for decades by allowing a potentially hazardous compound to
 remain…and not forcing manufacturers to exclude it from new products….”   In a second email, the same official wrote: “…the greatest point of vulnerability on this issue is that the systematic review…by the FDA could have been done years ago and on an ongoing basis.”   In a letter by FDA Acting Assistant Commissioner for Policy Jeffrey Shuren, denying the CoMeD petition, the “admission that the FDA had no substantive evidence confirming the safety of mercury in medicine was stunning,” stated CoMeD.     ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
 Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/   Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Blame Game

[leo bunyan]

Things would be much more betterer that wayMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have the bigger two volume OED.  I've always wanted the full set.I'm going to start an Internet radio program called "say it wrong - a guide to improper word usage."Take a different tact - tackIt's a mute point - moot.Irregardless - regardless.Hone in on - home in on.The list goes on...-Miss GrundyMK DuPree wrote: LOL...ty...OED eh? I have the two volume microprint version.  Have  used it more for etymology than everyday definition.  Kind of  cumbersome pulling one or the other volume out of the jacket and then  having to use a magnifying glass to read what I'm after.  I guess not  only am I insufferable, I'm lazy.  Ah well...maybe using
 the OED would  help me home in on my sedentary tendencies and hone my understanding  of context so that I might not be so ready to doubt another pedant's  ability to home in on writing that obviously needs to be better honed.- Original Message - From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:  Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Blame Game  Insufferable pedants unite!   Webster's dictionary just means...it's called Webster's.  Big whoop!  I  can print on up and call it Webster's.  The OED is the only dictionary worth using, IMHO.   You could say Cheney honed his argument.  You couldn't say he "honed  in"  on his argument.  
 MK DuPree wrote:   Aint even gonna touch references to my dic...otherwise, ok, I give,  kind of...what about dropping the words "in on"?  There's a case  for Cheney having honed his present message to mask the real message  his ilk have homed in on during the present and past administrations.   Rufus- Original Message -  From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>    To:      Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 3:18 PM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Blame Game1.  That's not a real dictionary.   2.  It wasn't "honed" as in "he honed
 his argument", it was "honed  in".   He meant "homed in on." -Miss Grundy MK DuPree wrote: Well...whether he homed or honed it, according to this article  Cheney   has been focusing on a message that betrays the historical work  of his   party, or at least certain members of his party.  Thanks Keith.Now, according to my _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,   Eleventh Edition_:"honed": to make more acute, intense, or effective; and"homed": to proceed or direct attention toward an objective.Given the context in which the word in the article is used, I   vote
 for "honed." However, from the article it appears the present   administration has honed its' public policy abilities and homed in   hard on my country's pocketbook for spending on stuff that  benefits a   few at the expense of many...as usual.  - Original Message -   From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>       To:         Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:44 AM   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The
 Blame Game  "has honed in on"   HOMED!!!  Can't anyone write anymore???   -Miss Grundy   Keith Addison wrote:  http://rightweb.irc-online.org/rw/3588   Right Web | Analysis |  The Blame Game  Tom Barry, IRC | October 11, 2006  IRC Right Web   rightweb.irc-online.org 
 Stumping for Republican candidates across the country in recent   weeks, Vice President Dick Cheney has honed in on a particular   message: Terrorists are "still lethal, still desperately trying to   hit us again," and Democrats are no good at security (Washington   Post, October 8, 2006). The administration and the Republican  Party   are again hawking the security issue prior to elections. Not  only are   they saying that they are the only ones who can be trusted to  protect   the nation's security, but they are also trying to burnish  their own   security credentials by tarnishing those of the Clinton   administration.  
As part of this campaign, conservative pundits have attacked the   record of former President Bill Clinton, arguing that he missed   chances to destroy terrorist networks. During a highly publicized   September 24 interview with Fox News' Chris Wallace, Clinton  accused   Wallace and Fox of undertaking a "conservative hit job" on his   administration's national security record and of neglecting to   adequately question President George W. Bush's antiterrorism  efforts.  Just as the former president thought it necessary to establish the   political context for the debate over who bears 

Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt

[leo bunyan]

Dougswiss chard is available here in ozthru the more alternative seed networks like eden seeds or diggers seedsLeoDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Noted. Here in Australia, Spinach  Silver Beet are considered the same. Like my US fellow listers, I need to remember this is an international list.  I should have said In Australia I wonder if Swiss chard is available in Australia? Does it have an Asian name? We eat many Asian vegetables now, due to the Chinese that have been here since the 1850s,  more recently, most Asian cultures are represented.regards DougOn Tuesday 26 September 2006 2:11, Keith Addison wrote: Spinach (basically, as I think there may be different varieties)didn't know yer could smoke it! (Maybe Pop-Eye
 actually put it in his pipe!)  regards Doug It's not actually spinach Doug, not even a relative. It's leaf beet, or Swiss chard - beetroot optimised for the leaf at the expense of the root, and a very good crop. We don't grow much spinach but we grow a lot of Swiss chard. The disadvantage of spinach is that it has a high oxalic acid content, and IIRC a month or two back we heard that cooking doesn't necessarily detoxify it. Swiss chard doesn't have any such problem, it's a great leaf vegetable, grows well, winter-hardy. (No THC either.) Pop-Eye must have been in the employ of a major spinach producer, IMHO - he ate it out of cans didn't he? I guess you'd need a good gimmick to sell lots of canned spinach. Maybe a dash of olive oyl helped blunten the effect of all that oxalic acid on his liver and kidneys. Best
 Keith On Monday 25 September 2006 5:21, D. Mindock wrote:   Wow, now that is funny. Um, what is Silver Beet? asks this here gringoformer toker.   Thanks, D. Mindock - Original Message -   From: "Bob Molloy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   To:    Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:00 PM   Subject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt  Billy Bob said...Pot'll get you through times of no money better'n money'll get youthrough times of no pot.   I been smoking pot ever' day for thirty years. Never got addictedyet.   Old Aunty of mine was addicted to Silver Beet. Ate it every
 twohours. She was always mad but she died of dementia and lefteverything to her budgie. How f...d up is that?   Hang on a minute. Dropped the pipe.   Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah. I used to be real uptight, ambitious,wear a suit. I think I was a rep or something. Now I got a cabin inthe bush made out of old 44 gallon drums and stuff. Me and my oldlady are gonna get someferrets and rats. See, you can feed the ferrets on rats till they'rebig then skin 'em and feed the carcases to the rats. Totally enclosedsystem. Saw it in one of those Furry Freak Bros books. My old lady isgoing to makefur coats and we'll sell them in the markets if we can get the
 Kombirunning.   Satchmo was ripped to the tits all the time. Never got violent andman couldthat cat play the saxophone. Or was it the clarinet?Only guy I knew got violent on pot was this mate of mine who took toone ofthose Ronald MacDonald statues. Rammed a Chicken Salad right betweenthose red lips. Reckoned the dressing was full of sugar. He's aMayonnaise terrorist. How come Ronald wears lipstick? I wouldn't wanthim around my kids.Only time pot did me any harm was one Halloween when I got a bongstuck up me nose. We was letting off sticks of jelly and I got tooclose. Took a lotof explaining down the A  E. 
  Where was I?   Regards,Bob.   - Original Message -From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 8:57 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] amazing himalayan salt  when it comes to drugs, or herbs, or anything that impacts humanphysiology, the only reliable ofmeasure of efficacy is reproducible, double blind, placebo controlledtesting. Anything else is wayto easy to manipulate (follow the money as I am told) ___ Biofuel mailing list
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Re: [Biofuel] Disney

[leo bunyan]

Wasn't Vietnam a drawJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They could always pull out and declare victory like they did in Vietnam.JoeFred Finch wrote: Let me get this straight... We goto Afganistan to get OBL, which had bipartisan support...   But get sidetracked into Iraq to get "WMD" that never existed, had  limited support, to get the inspectors back into Iraq, but went in  because Saddam let the inspectors back in, to free an oppressed people  in a war that would "last less than 6 months" and have nearly "Zero  casualties,"  to bring democracy to the middle east,  and bring  specialists from Afganistan to get all the bad guys in Iraq, and have  2600+ American military casualties, plus countless Iraqi deaths,
 and  civil war, and insurgents, debt to the tune of 2 billion a month, with  limited water and electrical service...  etc. What were we looking for in Afganistan again? When you get outmatched in a fight that you should not have started in  the first place, it is worse than leaving the fight.  America is  getting it's international backside handed to them on a platter and  you say that cutting and running is a bad idea. Well, let's stay the course then, you go first. fred  ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
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Re: [Biofuel] Secret to cheap petrol is coal

[leo bunyan]

Yep thats the way it goesCome and mine Oz as the people are to stupid to know what goes on"D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/secret-to-cheap-petrol-is-coal/2006/09/09/1157222384113.htmlSecret to cheap petrol is coalJason DowlingSeptember 10, 2006A $5 BILLION proposal to turn some of Victoria's abundant brown coal into diesel moved a step closer after the State Government revealed it was about to grant a mining licence to the company behind the project.Energy Minister Theo Theophanous told The Sunday Age that the project aimed to produce about 60,000 barrels a day of high-quality diesel fuel at a much lower cost than present world prices.He said an announcement on a mining licence for Monash Energy was likely to be made before
 the November 25 state election.The mining licence approval would include details of the total investment and when the plant would be operational.The first stage, which will cost between $300 million and $400 million, would be a demonstration plant that could be up and running in six years.The entire project should be operational in 10 years.The project has the backing of Shell and the big mining company Anglo American.A key aspect of the project, promoted as "clean energy", would be the minimising of greenhouse gas emissions by separating the carbon dioxide from the brown coal and storing it underground - a project known as geosequestration.About $1.5 billion of the $5 billion project would be spent on the geosequestration process, Mr Theophanous said.The project would be one of the world's biggest carbon dioxide capture and storage projects, with the gas stored deep underground in the
 offshore oil and gas fields in the Gippsland Basin.Mr Theophanous told The Sunday Age that a trial geosequestration project near Warrnambool had received $4 million in State Government money and would likely begin depositing carbon dioxide underground next year."We have to find out - does it work and how safe is it?" he said. It would be selfish to not worry about global warming, leaving it to our children.Victoria is estimated to have about 500 years of brown coal reserves in the Latrobe Valley.Mr Theophanous said that if geosequestration was successful, Victoria could cut to "close to zero" the emissions from new brown coal power stations in the future. He said Victoria would need a new base-load power station in the next decade, but he did not expect the geosequestration technology to be ready until the power station after next. Mr Theophanous said it would also be unlikely the geosequestration
 technology would have much impact on emissions from Victoria's existing power stations.Peter Cook, chief executive of the company CO2CRC, which is behind the geosequestration trial at Nirranda, near Warrnambool, said its success was "absolutely crucial" to the future of the Monash Energy coal-to-diesel project.Dr Cook said there had been keen interest in the geosequestration trial from around the world.He said representatives from other countries and the International Energy Agency would be in Melbourne next month to examine the geosequestration trial. He said they would look at how the carbon could be monitored once it was stored underground.The project is expected to be the first geosequestration trial in Australia when up and running next year.Opposition Leader Ted Baillieu said he supported any project that tackled carbon dioxide emissions at their source.But a Greenpeace energy campaigner,
 Mark Wakeham, said geosequestration was untried and expensive."We don't know whether the CO 2 can be stored for the long term," he said. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ 
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Re: [Biofuel] Sunflower Woes

[leo bunyan]

Feed em to your chooksthey love emKen Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 10, 2006, at 9:31 AM, robert and benita rabello wrote: Hello everyone! I have a FOREST of sunflowers in my garden this year. I don't knowwhat to do with them, and my saintly mother-in-law is getting upset atme for letting them "rot" on the ground. Any ideas for what I could do about this?Get yourself a seed press and make
 sunflower oil -- great on salads,and makes good biodiesel!Better yet, ship them all to ME and I'LL make sunflower oil :-)-K___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ 
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Re: [Biofuel] FYI - I'm back from Nova Scotia. What a great time!

[leo bunyan]

Love to see the picsMike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone,As someone who never placed much emphasis on the meaning of weddings, believes that a marriage is left to the interpretation of those who decide to make such a commitment and that it should NEVER include or require a government form or record, I conceded on July 15th. Sometimes it's good to pick fights wisely for the sake of maintaining harmony in one's (mostly conservative) family.The good news is that our wedding was a blast! It was an ethnic German (Bavarian) theme and roughly 1/3 of the guests were in traditional garb. That's right Fritz, for the men, that means Lederhosen!Last week, we spent our honeymoon in Baddeck - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and absolutely loved it! I don't know if Bob reported back on
 his experience in that region but, I was amazed at their effort to conserve and protect nature. We took day trips on the Cabot Trail, hiked, bicycled and Kayaked. We had almost daily sightings of bald eagles and two close encounters with moose. We sailed on a schooner and spotted dolphins, puffins and other wildlife. Most importantly, we tried our best to "leave only footprints and take only memories".I'll try to get the pictures up somewhere in case some of you are curious.-Redler___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant
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Re: [Biofuel] Redneck biodiesel video

[leo bunyan]

AMAZINGFuel is just so we can do things like burn tyresThere is no hope until we destroy the car cultureLeoMatthew Law [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unwashed biodiesel the expensive redneck way:http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=457773184300286737q=biodieselI'm lost for words on this one...Matt.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends
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Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs

[leo bunyan]

Good on ya Bobit seems that the human race is most comfortable at attempting to wipe itself out!!Mother Nature RulesLeoBob Molloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey guys,   It's a war; dirty, messy, cruel, inhuman andunnecessary - unless you happen to be a Palestinian yearning for your landback or an Israeli who's been threatened with annihilation since birth. It'salso a war that's been going on since mankind began. It's about land andreligion and culture and who dominates who. There are no rights and wrongsthere are only who wins and who loses. The winners write history and we moveon.Mike Weaver made the point when he wondered if he might be living on landowned by an indigenous people, a point which also applies to you too, Fritz,despite your disingenuous attempt to
 justify occupation of "unwanted" land.However, before you think of noble savages, remember that all those nicepeace-loving indigenes slaughtered and plundered their way through themillenia since they left Africa (where we all originated) to wherever theyfinally settled. The 19th century saw the last vestiges of this land grab.If you were a theologian you'd call it original sin. Darwin was earthier,and more enlightening, he called it survival of the fittest. You may takesides, wring your hands, jump up and down, talk about human rights but weare all - even those nice people in the rain forest who we think live inharmony with nature - guilty of genocide and dispossession. In the presentcase it's called the Arab-Israeli war. We'll know who was right whensomebody wins.And if you've forgotten how it all began, here's a brief sketch. I found iton my thumbnail.The UNO blessing on the establishment of Israel in
 1948 was merely therecognition of a de facto situation. From that moment on Israel was de jure,i.e. a legal entity in international law. The Arabs disagreed. Five Arabarmies (Egypt, Syria, Trans-Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq - including theBritish-trained and armed Arab Legion) immediately invaded the fledglingstate. The world responded by clapping a total arms embargo on Israel.Against that the Israelis had nine obsolete aircraft, a few tanks, fewerthan 20,000 armed civilians -and balls. They won, and pushed out theirfrontiers to safeguard their collective backsides from future attacks.The attacks never stopped (rockets, mines, cross-border shelling andguerilla incursions) but the next big one came in 1967 - the so-called SixDay War. This time the Arabs meant business. Egypt closed the Straits ofTiran to all Israeli shipping, cutting off Israel's only supply route withAsia and stopping the flow of oil from its main
 supplier, Iran.President Nasser of Egypt challenged Israel to fight. "Our basic objectivewill be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Heordered all UN peace-keeping forces stationed on Israeli borders to leave.The UN complied without even calling a meeting. The Voice of the Arabs radiostation proclaimed: "As of today, there no longer exists an internationalemergency force to protect Israel. The sole method we shall apply againstIsrael is total war, which will result in the extermination of Zionistexistence".  Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad was more blunt: "The Syrianarmy, with its finger on the trigger, is unitedI, as a military man,believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.Nasser topped that: "We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered insand; we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood." He meant Israeliblood.The armies of Egypt,
 Jordan, Syria and Lebanon massed on the borders ofIsrael. Backing them with men and munitions were Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait,Sudan and the whole Arab world. The actual count was 465,000 troops, morethan 2,800 tanks, and 800 aircraft.  President Johnson warned the Israelisnot to fight. The Red Cross stocked up on blankets, the rest of the worldstood by and watched. Israel couldn't get a hearing in the UN. The SecurityCouncil, it seemed, was difficult to contact.We all know what happened. The Israelis didn't wait for the war. Theypre-empted it. In six days (about the same time God needed to create heavenand earth) the Israelis - using an army 80% of which were weekend soldiersi.e. civilians taking time off from work -and an airforce a fraction thesize of that possessed by the Arabs defeated the lot and pushed out theborders to a more comfortable fit. Figuring that sauce for the goose wassauce for the gander they also closed
 the Suez Canal to all nations. On thesixth day just as the Israelis were heading for Damascus the SecurityCouncil suddenly found time to convene and ordered a cease fire on allsides. Nasser promptly died and left the mess to his successor, Anwar Sadat.Sadat waited six years and then famously announced he was willing to"sacrifice one million soldiers" (nice man) in a showdown with Israel. Hejoined Syria in assembling a vast army - the equivalent of the total forcesof NATO in Europe.  On the Golan Heights 

Re: [Biofuel] By Allowing White Racists in the Military, We're Training Domestic Terrorists

[leo bunyan]

The problem seems to be when they leave the militaryAlan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: D. Mindock wrote: *By Allowing White Racists in the Military, We're Training Domestic  Terrorists*[snip] The U.S. government can't sit around, waiting for the next Timothy  McVeigh to reveal himself. By identifying and discharging known  extremists from the military, we can stop future domestic terrorists in  their tracks. Taxpayer dollars should not pay for White Supremacy Boot  Camp. The military is supposed to protect all of America, not train  those who plan to wreak havoc on its citizens.  /Judge Greg Mathis is national vice president of Rainbow PUSH and a  national board member of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference./I
 disagree.By kicking them out of the military we're more likely to, in their minds, justify their antigovernment mindset, and hasten rather than delay their attacks on the United States.  Just kicking them out of the military will _not_ stop them in their tracks.A better idea would be to do enough of a background check to keep them out in the first place.Keep in mind also, that while they're in the military it's easier, a LOT easier to keep an eye on them.A yet better idea would be to stop the costly international adventures that require high numbers of new recruits.AP___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
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Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View

[leo bunyan]

Hi DougIt's not a matter of if the EPA laws will be introduced in Oz but When.I saw a journalist on the telly the other night that said "what happens in the US follows on to Aust."We now have fire ants in Oz that came from 2nd hand Agriculture equipment imported from the Statesbecause when we complained that the quarantine standards from the States might be a bit slack the States accussed us of being difficult to get a long withnow we didn't want to offend our ANZAS treaty partner so we just deciced best we let them in.The same is going to happen with GMPityLeoDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...) There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold. I was wondering,
 with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia??regards DougOn Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote:  But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein:  would you trust it??)  No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed.   Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View

[leo bunyan]

But NZ did recover and is doing so well that a lot of our pollies are buying up land there ie Bob Carr ex NSW PremierDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the influence is more evil than ANZAS. I think the US has a stranglehold over our pollies. There was a rumour that the last time Australia stood up to the US, our $A nosedived. The rumour was that unless we behaved, it would keep going down. Look too at the rollercoaster ride of the $NZ. It has taken NZ years to recover.regards DougOn Thursday 15 June 2006 7:51, leo bunyan wrote: Hi Doug It's not a matter  of if the EPA laws will be introduced in Oz but When. I saw a journalist on the telly the other night that said "what happens in  the US follows on to Aust." We now have fire ants in Oz that came from
 2nd hand Agriculture equipment imported from the States because when we complained that the quarantine standards from the States might be a bit slack  the States accussed us of being difficult to get a long with now we didn't want to offend our ANZAS treaty partner so we just deciced best we let them in. The same is going to happen with GM Pity Leo Doug Foskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...)  There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold.  I was wondering, with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia?? regards Doug On Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote:   But for the contamination: they
 are fed on genetically modified   protein: would you trust it??)No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the  US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily  there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most  supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM  Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed.   Chris.___  Biofuel mailing list  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
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Re: [Biofuel] HHO for welding running your car

[leo bunyan]

This so much like a fella here in oz that was fusing metal to rock with hydrogen technology back in the late 70's early 80's"D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Another water powered car,  this oneby Denny Klein in Florida. 100 miles on 4 oz of water, he says. He  is developing a Hummer for the Pentagon that'll run on either water  or gasoline, according to the newscast on Faux 26 TV. 
 http://youtube.com/watch?v=HF__Qlhtnwssearch=water%20power___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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[Biofuel] Animal Fat

[leo bunyan]

Hi All  I have access to a source of animal fat that is used for deep frying  I have tried to make biodiesel from it but only succeed in producing a very soapy gloop  I used the ratios from Mike Pelly's reciepe  Is there a difference between using animal fat and wast veggie oil?  HelpSend instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___
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