Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Mike, Keith, I'd like to add my 2 cents. Hello Mike Weaver NOT TRUE! True. True is correct. Ken Lay had a bunch of goons flown down to storm the recount going on. The recounters were scared so badly, they stopped the counting. Gore had picked up 400 plus votes in a short time and was on his way to winning in Florida when the counting was halted through fear and intimidation. Those 400 something votes never were added into the official tally. The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. Reagan had those people being held hostage to continue to be held until after the proper time. It made him look like someone who get things done. Carter was a good president overall, far better than Reagan. You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is a shell game anyway. Keith, you're right. We need to clean up the entire election process. Right now all we get are corporate wolves who say nice pleasant things, but do terrible things once in the Oval Office. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel either. Oh yeah, deep now and getting deeper every day. We are moving to a police state where we're all to be good orderly consumers but totally impotent as far as influencing the government in Wash DC. Congress now is acting like a deer in the headlights of an oncoming semi-trailer truck, totally frozen into inaction wrt removing the ogre in the Oval Office. It has three more years to wreak havoc on the world, a very dismal thought indeed. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there than you think. Hope is always present. BushCo would like to kill hope, since hopeful people tend to resist its insane policies. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. Yeah, more and more are becoming disgusted with the Bush regime. Now only if we can get the zombie-like Congress to do something. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Bush is perfect. He never has made a mistake. Ask him. And he is the enemy of the good, all the way. So you are correct. Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US torture. Some Americans do believe in torture, probably the 32% that like Bush. But most don't. It definitely isn't something any major religion would back. However, I think most people though don't really understand the idea that the ends do not justify the means and so they are ambivalent about the idea of torture. And this perhaps causes foggy thinking on the issue. I think that the Bush No Child Left Behind policy will cause further decline in critical thinking here in the USA. This is of course what the would-be dictators, like Bush, love. School here is all about learning enough to get a nice job. It is deplorable, but true. Myself, I think learning to use one's brain fluidly is important to live a high quality life in all of its potentialities. (Learning job skills comes in a distant second.) Bush's program causes a reduction in free thinking and teachers are concerned about the students doing well on the Bush imposed tests. Students are taught to be orderly and not be disruptive. They are being set up to be orderly consumers. Or how it applies to the shambles of Progressive opposition during the last 30 years. Liberals have not been effective. Reagan somehow made the word liberal into a put-down. True Progressives are people like Kucinich and Feingold and the late Paul Wellstone. Kerry is not progressive anything and not even a Liberal. It is really not a questions of labels though. The real thing is personal integrity and moral fortitude to go against what's popular and do the right action. Since politics is the art of compromise, politicians can easily slip up and compromise their own integrity. It happens with sickening regularity. It's a noble attempt to stick a band-aid over it. I said I wasn't belittling your efforts, and you know it's true. But please don't evade the issue and then chuck stuff like this at me. Stop trying to paint me as negative while you squirm to get off the hook. You say you've been out fighting all this time along with the huge number of Americans who are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can. Happily accepted, but what efforts have you put into campaigning against US torture? Personally, I have written my Congressional rep and Senators many times. They write back saying they
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not only anything anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is evil, fullstop. People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about holy wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes or talk about holy torture unless you're voting for the return of the Inquisition. Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you need to do to break somebody's will is to keep them awake. That's torture too, but it always works. So why do people have to use brutal violence and such perversions as electric shocks to people's genitals? You find these people in every society, people who'll run death camps if that's what's happening, whether passively as guards who are indeed probably just doing their job, enslaved people will do anything you want them to, or actively as torturers and killers, sick and twisted people who'll do it because they love it. That doesn't have anything to do with greed. Every society has its psychopaths, they're a tiny minority, they do not define the society they're a part of, they don't define anything except themselves. States employ torture, not humans unless they're sickos who get off on it. You know, people like Hannibal the Cannibal. The US attempt to blame low-ranking cannon-fodder for Abu Ghraib etc is just a case of the true culprit throwing up a smokescreen, as usual. You'll always be able to find people who'll stoop to torture if you institutionalise torture, and then if it gets spotlighted you can use them as the fall guys. Hakan's right, IMHO. Many people have commented that Americans just aren't interested in the torture issue, they're turning a blind eye while it goes on happening and spreads. Pointing the finger, or a finger, at the UN is something you might do if you don't know much about John Bolton either - Americans are definitely to blame for him too, and he's there for one reason only, to kick the UN into a compliant shape. Please read this: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/15/usint12295.htm Response to Criticism of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights (Human Rights Watch, 15-12-2005) That's UN Ambassador John Bolton on US torture. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Bolton John R. Bolton - SourceWatch http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60612.html [Biofuel] Steamroller Bolton at the U.N. http://www.counterpunch.org/barry03142005.html Tom Barry: John Bolton's Baggage Institutionalised torture is an abomination, it stains everybody with complicity in a nation that condones it or institutes it, unless they live under a totalitarian dictatorship. It's said people get the government they deserve. There's a lot of meaning in that but it's not really true. The amount of say that most people have in their governments is only theirs on sufferance, those in a totalitarian state have no say, they're slaves. But people who had every say and every opportunity and who let it all slip away through sheer negligence get the government they deserve. In this current case, everybody else's problem is that the rest of us are getting that government too and we don't deserve it. If you want to blame someone, blame this: Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship. -- William Blum - Rogue State, on how governments control their citizens http://www.killinghope.org/ People get the newspapers they deserve too. It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how only human it is. Like hell it is. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. Best Keith - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Randall To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? Hakan, To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL Americans have proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do not believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What other countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty International as having employed torture?Are you going to issue the same indictment of the citizens of those countries as well?
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. We are, and our numbers are growing each day! -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not only anything anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is evil, fullstop. People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about holy wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes or talk about holy torture unless you're voting for the return of the Inquisition. Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you need to do to break somebody's will is to keep them awake. That's torture too, but it always works. So why do people have to use brutal violence and such perversions as electric shocks to people's genitals? You find these people in every society, people who'll run death camps if that's what's happening, whether passively as guards who are indeed probably just doing their job, enslaved people will do anything you want them to, or actively as torturers and killers, sick and twisted people who'll do it because they love it. That doesn't have anything to do with greed. Every society has its psychopaths, they're a tiny minority, they do not define the society they're a part of, they don't define anything except themselves. States employ torture, not humans unless they're sickos who get off on it. You know, people like Hannibal the Cannibal. The US attempt to blame low-ranking cannon-fodder for Abu Ghraib etc is just a case of the true culprit throwing up a smokescreen, as usual. You'll always be able to find people who'll stoop to torture if you institutionalise torture, and then if it gets spotlighted you can use them as the fall guys. Hakan's right, IMHO. Many people have commented that Americans just aren't interested in the torture issue, they're turning a blind eye while it goes on happening and spreads. Pointing the finger, or a finger, at the UN is something you might do if you don't know much about John Bolton either - Americans are definitely to blame for him too, and he's there for one reason only, to kick the UN into a compliant shape. Please read this: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/12/15/usint12295.htm Response to Criticism of the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights (Human Rights Watch, 15-12-2005) That's UN Ambassador John Bolton on US torture. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Bolton John R. Bolton - SourceWatch http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60612.html [Biofuel] Steamroller Bolton at the U.N. http://www.counterpunch.org/barry03142005.html Tom Barry: John Bolton's Baggage Institutionalised torture is an abomination, it stains everybody with complicity in a nation that condones it or institutes it, unless they live under a totalitarian dictatorship. It's said people get the government they deserve. There's a lot of meaning in that but it's not really true. The amount of say that most people have in their governments is only theirs on sufferance, those in a totalitarian state have no say, they're slaves. But people who had every say and every opportunity and who let it all slip away through sheer negligence get the government they deserve. In this current case, everybody else's problem is that the rest of us are getting that government too and we don't deserve it. If you want to blame someone, blame this: Propaganda is to a democracy what violence is to a dictatorship. -- William Blum - Rogue State, on how governments control their citizens http://www.killinghope.org/ People get the newspapers they deserve too. It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how only
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hello Mike Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party wins every time. 'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business.' - Noam Chomsky That is hardly unique to the US. and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, everybody understands that. are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has been pathetic, and still is. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, Of course they're not. and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. The School of the Americas, eg? If all you want is to get things back the way they were before Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco ere long. Business-as-usual over the last 60 years is what has to go, not just Bushco. Particularly with foreign policy. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. We are, and our numbers are growing each day! Good! But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. Rice and Bolton et al can still deny that it happens and get away with it. After three and a half years! If you were a torture victim, you'd still be waiting patiently all this time would you? It's two years since congress was treated to three hours of slides and videos of US troops abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib, yet your leaders can still deny it happens. Not exactly under a lot of pressure, are they? There is no indication of meaningful action by the US government to remedy the situation and prevent further abuse. -- Amnesty International Americans are waking up in large numbers, at long last, and maybe it's not even too late, but it hasn't reached the torture issue yet. You can still say nobody cares, and people do say that. Of course there are exceptions, there always are. I'm not knocking you Mike, nor the efforts of any and all who oppose power and brute force, I'm sure you know that. But I don't think you've made a dent in anything I said. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times We Are All Torturers Now http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050214fa_fact6 The New Yorker Outsourcing Torture The secret history of America's extraordinary rendition program by JANE MAYER Issue of 2005-02-14 On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture. And he's still there, eh? Most Americans haven't got a clue what they look the other way at. Best Keith -Mike Keith Addison wrote: Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz Maybe, but whose greed, exactly? I'm not addressing this at anyone in particular... This is a simple thing that's become woven into a hugely complicated situation, a matter of empire. As a result it's not only anything anymore, though the simple thing remains, which is that torture is evil, fullstop. People can talk about war being necessary sometimes or even about holy wars, but you can't argue that torture is necessary sometimes or talk about holy torture unless you're voting for the return of the Inquisition. Torture is not necessary under any circumstances, because all you need to do
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
NOT TRUE! The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party wins every time. 'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business.' - Noam Chomsky That is hardly unique to the US. and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, everybody understands that. are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has been pathetic, and still is. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, Of course they're not. and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. The School of the Americas, eg? If all you want is to get things back the way they were before Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco ere long. Business-as-usual over the last 60 years is what has to go, not just Bushco. Particularly with foreign policy. Stop talking about blame, dump all the finger-pointing and get it fixed. We are, and our numbers are growing each day! Good! But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. Rice and Bolton et al can still deny that it happens and get away with it. After three and a half years! If you were a torture victim, you'd still be waiting patiently all this time would you? It's two years since congress was treated to three hours of slides and videos of US troops abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib, yet your leaders can still deny it happens. Not exactly under a lot of pressure, are they? There is no indication of meaningful action by the US government to remedy the situation and prevent further abuse. -- Amnesty International Americans are waking up in large numbers, at long last, and maybe it's not even too late, but it hasn't reached the torture issue yet. You can still say nobody cares, and people do say that. Of course there are exceptions, there always are. I'm not knocking you Mike, nor the efforts of any and all who oppose power and brute force, I'm sure you know that. But I don't think you've made a dent in anything I said. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times We Are All Torturers Now http://www.newyorker.com/printables/fact/050214fa_fact6 The New Yorker Outsourcing Torture The secret history of America's extraordinary rendition program by JANE MAYER Issue of 2005-02-14 On January 27th, President Bush, in an interview with the Times, assured the world that torture is never acceptable, nor do we hand over people to countries that do torture. And he's still there, eh? Most Americans haven't got a clue what they look the other way
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hello Mike Weaver NOT TRUE! True. The court gave him the first one. He stole the 2nd one ;-) The next one? Even I'm beginning to wonder. FWIW I think Reagan beat Carter w/o chicanery at the ballot box. You miss the point. There's no need to cheat if the whole charade is a shell game anyway. I'm not arguing that we're lurching towards a coporatocracy - we are, but I'm not throwing in the towel yet. You're IN a corporatocracy. But that's no reason to throw in the towel either. I think there is hope yet, but we'll see. Of course there's hope, perhaps more now than ever before. Look it in the face, no need to rose-tint it, you might find more hope there than you think. I agree the left (I prefer Progessives but then I still consider myself a musuem quality Liberal) has been hapless of late. But I don't think all is lost. If nothing else we are certainly energized as we haven't been since the 60's. One thing we need to learn is that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Can you explain to me how that applies to domestic opposition to US torture. Or how it applies to the shambles of Progressive opposition during the last 30 years. It's a noble attempt to stick a band-aid over it. I said I wasn't belittling your efforts, and you know it's true. But please don't evade the issue and then chuck stuff like this at me. Stop trying to paint me as negative while you squirm to get off the hook. You say you've been out fighting all this time along with the huge number of Americans who are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can. Happily accepted, but what efforts have you put into campaigning against US torture? Insert from previous: It's also said it's our imaginations that keep us human, the ability to live a thousand lives. So use it - put yourself and your feelings inside someone who's screaming themselves to death while mad torturers laugh and jeer and do everything they can to make it worse. See how much you can take even just trying to imagine it, let alone have it happen to you. Then make excuses, if you still want to. Try to put yourself inside one of the torturers too, see how only human it is. Like hell it is. Did you try it Mike, and you're still prevaricating? Why am I having to re-focus you on the topic? Twice now. But, nationwide, what you see is silence, people looking the other way, compliance. Torture rates as a minor issue or a non-issue. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0106-26.htm Published on Thursday, January 6, 2005 by New York Times We Are All Torturers Now Namaste Keith Keith Addison wrote: Hello Mike Keith, Much of what you say is true but to lump everyone here in the US together is not fair. BushCo flat stole the last vote, And the one before, and the next one. But which president didn't? It's just a matter of degree of in-your-faceness. The Business Party wins every time. 'It has often been pointed out by political scientists that the US is basically a one-party state -- the business party, with two factions, Democrats and Republicans. Most of the population seems to agree. A very high percentage, sometimes passing 80%, believe that the government serves the few and the special interests, not the people. ... More serious political scientists in the mainstream describe the US not as a democracy but as a polyarchy: a system of elite decision and periodic public ratification. There is surely much truth to the conclusion of the leading American social philosopher of the 20th century, John Dewey, whose main work was on democracy, that until there is democratic control of the primary economic institutions, politics will be the shadow cast on society by big business.' - Noam Chomsky That is hardly unique to the US. and a HUGE group of us USers (I hate the term American - it's as if Mexico and Canada don't exist) We've discussed that before. But it's worldwide usage. I don't think it causes much confusion, Washington, Americans, North Americans, everybody understands that. are now and have ALWAYS been working as hard as we can to fight his programs. Huge? You (collectively) were outmanoeuvred 30 years ago and you've hardly got a thing right since, you didn't see anything coming. You weren't even easy meat for Bushco, there wasn't any need to take any notice of you at all. The left or whatever you want to call it has been pathetic, and still is. My business and my personal life are shaped by this struggle, as are the lives of my friends. The opposition never went away in the States. No one I know is in favor of torture, Of course they're not. and if you follow the news in the US, even most of the Republicans are against it. This is a Bush Admin. thing, not an American thing. The School of the Americas, eg? If all you want is to get things back the way they were before Bushco, then you're liable to have another Bushco
[Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=1519912 Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, who are responsible for their government. At least republicans are clearly to identify with what's going on. This especially elected representatives, who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this administration. Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current government? A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it is no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the Germans in the 1930's. They only let it happen also. Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel more guilt of their ancestors behavior. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hakan, To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL Americans have proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do not believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What other countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty International as having employed torture?Are you going to issue the same indictment of the citizens of those countries as well? Aren't ALL member nations in the UN responsible for not forcing ALL countries to stop using torture? Using your assertion, aren't the citizens of all those countries responsible as well? Yes, I know it is easy to say that the US has a veto on the Security Council...but why not simply change the system?? Sitting back and just saying that they cannot is the same as the comparison to 1930's and 1940's Nazi Germany. Simply having a vote does not imply responsibilty, much less confer the ability to force the action (or non-action) of a government.This does not excuse torture...but nor does it solve it either. I believe you need to first figure out what makes humans CAPABLE of torture then you can address the REASONS that humans employ torture. --Randall ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=1519912 Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, who are responsible for their government. At least republicans are clearly to identify with what's going on. This especially elected representatives, who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this administration. Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current government? A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it is no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the Germans in the 1930's. They only let it happen also. Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel more guilt of their ancestors behavior. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Randall, US have already proved that they do not want to give up the veto in UN. This also means that they can veto any change that are suggested for UN. So it is the old story about what comes first. Yes, there are some other countries that apply torture, most of them are countries that US does not want to be compared with and some of them South Americans that US support and where CIA have proved to be training the military. To be fair, we must also mention China, where US have no influence at all. Yes, I am saying the same about those countries, but unfortunately torture is an internal matter and used to keep their own population under control. Are you suggesting that this is the case in US, it becomes even more worrisome than I thought. So what you say is, as long as ALL Americans are not aware of their country's methods, the rest is absolved from taking actions and are kept in line by torture as other countries. I never thought that you had such a risky and dangerous environment in US. It has changed very much the last few years that I did not visit. Hakan At 21:19 03/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL Americans have proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do not believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What other countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty International as having employed torture?Are you going to issue the same indictment of the citizens of those countries as well? Aren't ALL member nations in the UN responsible for not forcing ALL countries to stop using torture? Using your assertion, aren't the citizens of all those countries responsible as well? Yes, I know it is easy to say that the US has a veto on the Security Council...but why not simply change the system?? Sitting back and just saying that they cannot is the same as the comparison to 1930's and 1940's Nazi Germany. Simply having a vote does not imply responsibilty, much less confer the ability to force the action (or non-action) of a government.This does not excuse torture...but nor does it solve it either. I believe you need to first figure out what makes humans CAPABLE of torture then you can address the REASONS that humans employ torture. --Randall ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=1519912 Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, who are responsible for their government. At least republicans are clearly to identify with what's going on. This especially elected representatives, who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this administration. Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current government? A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it is no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the Germans in the 1930's. They only let it happen also. Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel more guilt of their ancestors behavior. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Hey Randall, its greed just greed and again greed and only greed! Fritz - Original Message - From: Randall To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? Hakan,To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL Americans have proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do not believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What other countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty International as having employed torture? Are you going to issue the same indictment of the citizens of those countries as well?Aren't ALL member nations in the UN responsible for not forcing ALL countries to stop using torture? Using your assertion, aren't the citizens of all those countries responsible as well? Yes, I know it is easy to say that the US has a veto on the Security Council...but why not simply change the system?? Sitting back and just saying that they cannot is the same as the comparison to 1930's and 1940's Nazi Germany.Simply having a vote does not imply responsibilty, much less confer the ability to force the action (or non-action) of a government. This does not excuse torture...but nor does it solve it either. I believe you need to first figure out what makes humans CAPABLE of torture then you can address the REASONS that humans employ torture.--Randall___ Heisenberg may have slept here "If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe." --Abraham Lincoln___- Original Message - From: "Hakan Falk" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:19 PMSubject: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=1519912 Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, who are responsible for their government. At least republicans are clearly to identify with what's going on. This especially elected representatives, who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this administration. Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current government? A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it is no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the Germans in the 1930's. They only "let it happen" also. Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel more guilt of their ancestors behavior. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
