Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,
  In US (elsewhere?) ethanol must be rendered unfit for consumption.
 For example: Add 2 gal of unleaded gasoline to 100 gal of ethanol.
Gasoline may make the ethanol unfit for making biodiesel.
It could be denatured with methanol which would be good for making 
biodiesel, but not so good for use in cars.
 The question is: Will there be enough demand for fuel grade ethanol 
denatured with methanol?
Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, April 20, 2007 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


> Currently with the way it is anyone who wants to make ethyl esters
> pretty much has to grow ther own ethanol, and of course from a
> sustainability perspective it is still the best approach but with all
> the hype I am hearing about ethanol and E85 and with all the big
> investment all over the place ( vis Riverstone- Carlyle in Alberta) I
> think anyhdrous ethanol may be available to purchase commercially one
> day soon.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
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>
>
> 



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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Joe Street]

Currently with the way it is anyone who wants to make ethyl esters 
pretty much has to grow ther own ethanol, and of course from a 
sustainability perspective it is still the best approach but with all 
the hype I am hearing about ethanol and E85 and with all the big 
investment all over the place ( vis Riverstone- Carlyle in Alberta) I 
think anyhdrous ethanol may be available to purchase commercially one 
day soon.

Joe



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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Keith Addison]

Hello Dennis

>Keith,
>I am interested in developing strains of bacteria for cellulosic 
>ethanol production. Do you have a list of up to date and pertinent 
>references I could have?

The list of references we do have hasn't been updated for years 
because there's nothing new to add, it was "just around the corner" 
then and it's still "just around the corner" (like biodiesel from 
algae). Unless you want to use the old "Fuel From Sawdust" method 
with concentrated sulphuric acid:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_sawdust.html
Fuel From Sawdust

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html#cellulose
Ethanol from cellulose

I suppose ARS is one of the best sources for research:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/search.htm
ARS : News & Events ARS News

Search for "ethanol +cellulose" (without the quotes).

Eg.:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2007/070412.htm
Single Microbe Yields Ethanol, Plus Eco-Friendly Glue / April 12, 2007
>Squeezing more ethanol from cellulose-the basic material from which 
>all plants are made-is still a lofty goal for scientists. The 
>process uses expensive enzymes that are limited in their ability to 
>convert stubbornly rigid plant cells walls into fuels.

Good luck.

Keith

 

>thanks,
>Dennis
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam
>To: <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
>
>Respected  Keith
>
>I am sure  about the  the use of ethanol, wish to send all 
>the relevant work available from  Brazil so that your experiences 
>will be reall sucessful.
>
>
> Thanking you
>
>sd
>Pannirselvam P.V
>
>
>
>2007/4/17, Keith Addison 
><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Keith Addison]

Dear Pannir

>Respected  Keith
>
>I am sure  about the  the use of ethanol, wish to send all 
>the relevant work available from  Brazil so that your experiences 
>will be reall sucessful.

I'd be most grateful for any information you can provide on this.

But I can't read Portuguese! :-(

Regards

Keith


> Thanking you
>
>sd
>Pannirselvam P.V
>
>
>
>2007/4/17, Keith Addison 
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>--
>Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos
>DEQ ñ Departamento de Engenharia QuÌmica
>CT ñ Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ñ Natal/RN
>Campus Universit·rio. CEP: 59.072-970
>http://pannirbr.goo 
>glepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage
>
>3215-3769   ramal 210
>casa 3215-1557


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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Dennis Schultz]

Keith,
I am interested in developing strains of bacteria for cellulosic ethanol 
production. Do you have a list of up to date and pertinent references I could 
have?
thanks,
Dennis
  - Original Message - 
  From: Pagandai Pannirselvam 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 2:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


  Respected  Keith

  I am sure  about the  the use of ethanol, wish to send all the 
relevant work available from  Brazil so that your experiences will be reall 
sucessful.


   Thanking you

  sd
  Pannirselvam P.V




  2007/4/17, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
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  -- 
  Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos
  DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
  CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
  Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
  http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage

  3215-3769   ramal 210
  casa 3215-1557 


--


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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

   Respected  Keith

   I am sure  about the  the use of ethanol, wish to send all the
relevant work available from  Brazil so that your experiences will be reall
sucessful.


Thanking you

sd
Pannirselvam P.V



2007/4/17, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


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--
Grupo de Pesquisa em Engenharia de Custos e Processos
DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
http://pannirbr.googlepages.com/gpecufrnhomepage

3215-3769   ramal 210
casa 3215-1557
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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Keith Addison]

u said:
>" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave  social web2 , the
>free open  process for several  billions farmer  to be free and
>independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way
>for  green future for all , where all are included to have the
>sustainable green fuel ."
>
> You may be right when you say  "... some novel modification can
>be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two  stage
>proven JFT BioD process."

I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many
advantages (KISS, for instance).

>Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and
>enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds.
>  Best Wishes to You,
>
>Tom
>
>- Original Message -
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Pagandai Pannirselvam
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org>biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
>
> Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN ,
>
> From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL
>
>2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>Chris,
> I agree with you when you say
>  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to
>make any sense.".
>
>
>
> Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the  results compared to the conventional
>process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of
>good grade  glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of
>the BioD production.

But I don't think that's of much interest to small-scale producers. I
don't think it's easy to sell small-scale production of glycerin,
even if it's refined, so this is really only a concern for
large-scale producers.

Tom said previously the cost of phosphoric acid for separating the
by-product was covered by the recovered methanol, and you end up with
crude glycerin that accelerates a compost pile or improves production
of an anaerobic digester. Good enough I think.



>The project has  merit surely , but have  very  poor content as they
>do not wish to share the technical information.

That might be the reason, or they might just be fishing for financial
support and don't really have anything much except some preliminary
results, the claims they make could be true or could be just theory,
or a mix of the two.

I think we should probably be sceptical. We've seen so many things
like this, and so few of them ever emerge into practice. I doubt this
process will contribute much to a sustainable green future.



> I wish also to get the comments  as our list has so many members
>from several countries  , only very few members are involved here in
>recent  biofuel list discussions.

Robert said something similar recently. It has been quieter than
usual, broader participation and wider discussion would be welcome,
as always.

All best

Keith




>It  is the fact that  It reminds us to be  of a poorly written
>science project as this is because the  information of the novel
>technological process are  valuable   , but  the farming community
>is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how
>hard for him to get the  new BioD process information published in
>JFT, but incomplete information are always  available  and here too
>the same is true .However  the project has good future even for
>small scale production in farm scale  as very good results have been
>reported for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol
>
>
> The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process.
>Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids  > methyl esters. Stage
>Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides > methyl
>esters.
>
>
>Pannnir >>>>> The combined  reaction and separation known as
>reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative  system  of
>chemical engineering  process engineering subjects.I  am sure that l
>the small scale production in farm  can do benefit using this novel
>methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified
>if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol
>
>
>
> I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.
>
>
>
>
>
>Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the
>reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di
>glycerol byproducts  making the biofuel with less quality.The better
>the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product
>quality.
>
>
>
> I'm also confused about "Distilling" t

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

Hi, Keith, Ken and Tom

   Tom there is no for your apology, as we can have different views.

We, Acadamics , engineers , researchers  need to learn a lot from all the
people like
Keith and  Tom who are very practical  always work very  near to the process
problems.
What always happens to all the new and old engineers  who are good in
process synthesis , but   lack always
and also  very bad in critical analysis of the project with regard to
materials used, the complexity and viability.
Thus several millions money spent by university research  are all going as a
waste such as supercritical extraction for BiD good results at laboratory ,
but no use for largescale use.
The combination of practical and concepts based on the theory need to go
together in this list to evolve a better catalysts, prcoessos, equipments,
process seperations.

The reactive distillation means  doing  the  reaction together with the
distillation and I agree with Keith that, yet this
can be only research level.

  After Keith explanation about mixing by recirculation is an effective
way to  reduce the product revers reaction of glycerol , moreover , the
sediment ion  of glycerol , made possible means a better  way to filter out
the glycerol , thus preventing unwanted byproducts.

 Thus understanding of the process is vital to operate the plant.


At the beginning mixing can favour the reaction , the can be slow so that
the  product can be pulled out of reaction.


I also agree with Keith , there is no point to bother about glycerol
recovery as this can be easily used as liquid soap , sold soap , combustible
, , for bio gas production , even as the source for rural wood energy  and
hence  the high cost of recovery to get ultra purity glycerol is out of
question as far as the small scale process are concerned.


Yet  I have one  one question to Keith regarding the use of Methanol
instead of ethanol.

Will this two stage process can be possible with ethanol only or the mixture
of  methanol and ethanol can be possible as methanol is not ready avaialable
in several developing countries.

let us again wish others do participate actively in our list, as  this list
used to be very dynamic , let us come back all again to make this as leading
one .

Kind regards to all

Pannirselvam


2007/4/12, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Hi Tom, Pannir and all

>Pannirselvam P.V
> My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms
>"Sounds like a poorly written science project" and "it doesn't seem
>to make any sense" sprouted from my own ignorance.
> I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation.
>
> I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any
>"new process." I like the idea of being able to make what I believe
>to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using
>little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump.

I think that's the main point. It's accessible to virtually anyone
anywhere.

>A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average "Tom" and
>puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not
>necessarily better.

It looks like an unholy marriage of the acid-base process and the
famous "supercritical methanol" process (Saka et al) that was getting
everyone excited a few years back - methanol at 5080 PSI and
350-400C. Um, no thankyou, I don't want big business doing that
anywhere near me, let alone backyarders. High temperature + high
pressure + lots of methanol as with this "new" process is likely to
kill someone, I fear.

>As you said:
>" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave  social web2 , the
>free open  process for several  billions farmer  to be free and
>independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way
>for  green future for all , where all are included to have the
>sustainable green fuel ."
>
> You may be right when you say  "... some novel modification can
>be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two  stage
>proven JFT BioD process."

I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many
advantages (KISS, for instance).

>Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and
>enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds.
>  Best Wishes to
You,
>
>Tom
>
>----- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam
>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
>
> Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN ,
>
> From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL
>
>2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Thomas Kelly]

Keith, Pannir, and Everyone Else,

Keith wrote:
>. it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots of by-product drops 
>out > as it's being formed.

>Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless
>get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't
>think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much
>of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration
>steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin.

 Agreed  as long as there is excess methanol (20% vol/vol). If it 
was possible to remove glycerin without removing methanol and caustic, less 
methanol would be required; maybe shorter reaction time.
 I'm simply struggling with the idea that reactive distillation and 
"filtration" can provide advantages to homebrewers. How do we separate "good 
grade glycerol" using temperatures that are safe? I don't know much about 
reactive distillation, and maybe the process referred to as "filtration" is 
different from what I have in mind. I would like to hear more from anyone 
with knowledge about reactive distillation as it would apply to biodiesel 
production and what is involved in the process referred to as "filtration".
   Best to All,
 Tom






- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2007 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


Hi again Tom and Pannir

>Pannir,
>
>Tom > I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to 
>washing.
>
>
>
>
>Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the
>reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di
>glycerol byproducts  making the biofuel with less quality.The better
>the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product
>quality.
>
> I understand that removing the glycerol will "pull" the
>reaction towards ester formation. Is there a way to remove the
>glycerol and "diverse di glcerol byproducts" (by "filtration")
>as they form without also removing methanol and caustic? Does
>"filtering" refer to something different from simply draining the
>glycerine layer?

Our 90-litre processor allows a good proportion (maybe half) of the
by-product to drop out and settle, with another proportion of it
being recirculated much more slowly than the rest of what's being
processed, which keeps that much methanol in action, and the GC tests
showed 99+% ester content.

See:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#settle

Recirculation is fast in this processor. I add the first-stage
methanol (slowly) and let it mix thoroughly with the WVO, which makes
it look like milky coffee, and then I pour in 60ml of sulphuric acid
at the top, which turns it chalky, and the colour change happens in
about one second. So it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots
of by-product drops out as it's being formed.

Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless
get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't
think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much
of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration
steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin.

All best

Keith


>Tom
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam
>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
>
> Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN ,
>
> From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL
>
>2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly 
><<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>Chris,
> I agree with you when you say
>  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to
>make any sense.".
>
>
>
> Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the  results compared to the conventional
>process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of
>good grade  glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of
>the BioD production.It  is the fact that  It reminds us to be  of a
>poorly written science project as this is because the  information
>of the novel technological process are  valuable   , but  the
>farming community  is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely
>Keith know well how hard for him to get the  new BioD process
>information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always
>available  and here too t

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Keith Addison]

Hi again Tom and Pannir

>Pannir,
>
>Tom > I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.
>
>
>
>
>Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the 
>reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di 
>glycerol byproducts  making the biofuel with less quality.The better 
>the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product 
>quality.
>
> I understand that removing the glycerol will "pull" the 
>reaction towards ester formation. Is there a way to remove the 
>glycerol and "diverse di glcerol byproducts" (by "filtration") 
>as they form without also removing methanol and caustic? Does 
>"filtering" refer to something different from simply draining the 
>glycerine layer?

Our 90-litre processor allows a good proportion (maybe half) of the 
by-product to drop out and settle, with another proportion of it 
being recirculated much more slowly than the rest of what's being 
processed, which keeps that much methanol in action, and the GC tests 
showed 99+% ester content.

See:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html#settle

Recirculation is fast in this processor. I add the first-stage 
methanol (slowly) and let it mix thoroughly with the WVO, which makes 
it look like milky coffee, and then I pour in 60ml of sulphuric acid 
at the top, which turns it chalky, and the colour change happens in 
about one second. So it mixes efficiently, but at the same time lots 
of by-product drops out as it's being formed.

Simple processors that don't seem to allow for this can nonetheless 
get high-quality results even with single-stage base. So I don't 
think the reverse reaction from glycerin formation can be that much 
of a constraint. I can't see a need for multiple or any filtration 
steps or centrifuging or whatever to remove glycerin.

All best

Keith


>Tom
>
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam
>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
>
> Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN ,
>
> From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL
>
>2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>Chris,
> I agree with you when you say
>  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to
>make any sense.".
>
>
>
> Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the  results compared to the conventional 
>process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of 
>good grade  glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of 
>the BioD production.It  is the fact that  It reminds us to be  of a 
>poorly written science project as this is because the  information 
>of the novel technological process are  valuable   , but  the 
>farming community  is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely 
>Keith know well how hard for him to get the  new BioD process 
>information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always 
>available  and here too the same is true .However  the project has 
>good future even for small scale production in farm scale  as very 
>good results have been reported for the product quality of BiOD, 
>glycerol,recovered alcohol
>
>
> The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process.
>Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids  > methyl esters. Stage
>Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides > methyl
>esters.
>
>
>Pannnir >>>>> The combined  reaction and separation known as 
>reactive distillation is an advanced novel innovative  system  of 
>chemical engineering  process engineering subjects.I  am sure that l 
>the small scale production in farm  can do benefit using this novel 
>methods not as it is as this is complex units , but can be modified 
>if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol
>
>
>
> I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.
>
>
>
>
>
>Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the 
>reverse reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di 
>glycerol byproducts  making the biofuel with less quality.The better 
>the separation as soon this is formed better the yield , product 
>quality.
>
>
>
> I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude
>Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from
>the glycerine

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Thomas Kelly]

  Pannir,

  Tom > I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.

 
Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the  reverse 
reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di  glycerol byproducts  
making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is 
formed better the yield , product quality.

 I understand that removing the glycerol will "pull" the reaction towards 
ester formation. Is there a way to remove the glycerol and "diverse di glcerol 
byproducts" (by "filtration") as they form without also removing methanol and 
caustic? Does "filtering" refer to something different from simply draining the 
glycerine layer?

Tom

  

  - Original Message - 
  From: Pagandai Pannirselvam 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


   Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , 

   From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 


  2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
Chris,
 I agree with you when you say
  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to 
make any sense.".


   Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the  results compared to the conventional process 
has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade  
glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It  
is the fact that  It reminds us to be  of a poorly written science project as 
this is because the  information of the novel technological process are  
valuable   , but  the farming community  is one who share the knowledge 
freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the  new BioD process 
information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always  available  
and here too the same is true .However  the project has good future even for 
small scale production in farm scale  as very good results have been reported 
for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol 



 The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process. 
Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids  > methyl esters. Stage
Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides > methyl
esters.

  Pannnir >>>>> The combined  reaction and separation known as reactive 
distillation is an advanced novel innovative  system  of chemical engineering  
process engineering subjects.I  am sure that l the small scale production in 
farm  can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex 
units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol 
   


 I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.

   


  Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the  reverse 
reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di  glycerol byproducts  
making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is 
formed better the yield , product quality.




 I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude
Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from
the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, 
washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would
distill washed and dried BD.

Pannirbr >>>>   Really we need more information and I can agree with you. I 
think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover 
back diverse  di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the 
co products need to be recovered as  the catalyst is yet not an perfect one.



  The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the "New
Process" to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a
1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims 
that there is "no stirring"  .   I suspect this is wrong.

  Pannirbr>>>>>>>>>  I think,this is possible , eventhough  not  enough 
information is yet known , if one  understand well what is reactive 
distillation  some patented related with the processare known one. If you 
combine distillation and reaction,  the products , alcohol and  water are 
separated simultaneously .Several patented process  does prove that it is 
possible  to get results with out the use of  mechanical agitator's , but 
thermal energy are used , which can be recovered , thus the process is designed 
to be more energy  efficient 



  It says that the "Classic Process" cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, 
co

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Keith Addison]

Hi Tom, Pannir and all

>Pannirselvam P.V
> My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms 
>"Sounds like a poorly written science project" and "it doesn't seem 
>to make any sense" sprouted from my own ignorance.
> I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation.
>
> I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any 
>"new process." I like the idea of being able to make what I believe 
>to be high quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using 
>little more than what I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump.

I think that's the main point. It's accessible to virtually anyone anywhere.

>A new process that goes beyond the reach of an average "Tom" and 
>puts control back into the hands of big business may be new, but not 
>necessarily better.

It looks like an unholy marriage of the acid-base process and the 
famous "supercritical methanol" process (Saka et al) that was getting 
everyone excited a few years back - methanol at 5080 PSI and 
350-400C. Um, no thankyou, I don't want big business doing that 
anywhere near me, let alone backyarders. High temperature + high 
pressure + lots of methanol as with this "new" process is likely to 
kill someone, I fear.

>As you said: 
>" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave  social web2 , the 
>free open  process for several  billions farmer  to be free and 
>independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural way 
>for  green future for all , where all are included to have the 
>sustainable green fuel ."
>
> You may be right when you say  "... some novel modification can 
>be possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two  stage 
>proven JFT BioD process."

I think so too, but not if it means trading in some of its many 
advantages (KISS, for instance).

>Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and 
>enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds.
>  Best Wishes to You,
> 
>Tom
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Pagandai Pannirselvam
>To: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"
>
> Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN ,
>
> From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL
>
>2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>Chris,
> I agree with you when you say
>  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to
>make any sense.".
>
>
>
> Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the  results compared to the conventional 
>process has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of 
>good grade  glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of 
>the BioD production.

But I don't think that's of much interest to small-scale producers. I 
don't think it's easy to sell small-scale production of glycerin, 
even if it's refined, so this is really only a concern for 
large-scale producers.

Tom said previously the cost of phosphoric acid for separating the 
by-product was covered by the recovered methanol, and you end up with 
crude glycerin that accelerates a compost pile or improves production 
of an anaerobic digester. Good enough I think.



>The project has  merit surely , but have  very  poor content as they 
>do not wish to share the technical information.

That might be the reason, or they might just be fishing for financial 
support and don't really have anything much except some preliminary 
results, the claims they make could be true or could be just theory, 
or a mix of the two.

I think we should probably be sceptical. We've seen so many things 
like this, and so few of them ever emerge into practice. I doubt this 
process will contribute much to a sustainable green future.



> I wish also to get the comments  as our list has so many members 
>from several countries  , only very few members are involved here in 
>recent  biofuel list discussions.

Robert said something similar recently. It has been quieter than 
usual, broader participation and wider discussion would be welcome, 
as always.

All best

Keith




>It  is the fact that  It reminds us to be  of a poorly written 
>science project as this is because the  information of the novel 
>technological process are  valuable   , but  the farming community 
>is one who share the knowledge freely.Surely Keith know well how 
>hard for him to get the  new BioD process information published in 
>JFT, but incomplete information are always  available  and here too 
>the 

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Christopher & Jacqueline Tan]

Dear Thomas, Ken, Trevon and everyone:

I think it is safe to say that we are all in agreement that there's nothing
in the process that we don't already know. 

The last "new" thing I found about biodiesel production was sulfonated
charcoal as catalyst. I made some and got some decent reaction but the
process of making the stuff was a complete turn-off.

If you guys do find something new do share.Thanks.

Best,
Chris



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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Thomas Kelly]

Pannirselvam P.V 
 My apologies to the authors of the study. My criticisms  "Sounds like a 
poorly written science project" and "it doesn't seem to make any sense" 
sprouted from my own ignorance. 
 I am doing my homework on the subject of reactive distillation.  

 I must admit to a bias that may compromise my acceptance of any "new 
process." I like the idea of being able to make what I believe to be high 
quality biodiesel, myself, on my own spot of land, using little more than what 
I can scavenge from my local scrap metal dump. A new process that goes beyond 
the reach of an average "Tom" and puts control back into the hands of big 
business may be new, but not necessarily better. As you said:  
" The new generation biofuel is like the new wave  social web2 , the free open  
process for several  billions farmer  to be free and independent of the big 
blues globalised market .This the natural way  for  green future for all , 
where all are included to have the sustainable green fuel ." 

 You may be right when you say  "... some novel modification can be 
possible to make more environmentally friendly our old two  stage proven JFT 
BioD process."

Thank you for your response and I look forward to discussion and 
enlightenment by list members as this story unfolds. 
  Best Wishes to You,
Tom




 

 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Pagandai Pannirselvam 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 8:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


   Dear  Cris,Thomas Kelly,Tom ,KEN , 

   From Prof Pannir,Ufrn, BRAZIL 


  2007/4/10, Thomas Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: 
Chris,
 I agree with you when you say
  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to 
make any sense.".


   Pannirbr>>>>>>Certainly the  results compared to the conventional process 
has merit and has more sense , as the cost of separation of good grade  
glycerol involve more than 50 percent the total cost of the BioD production.It  
is the fact that  It reminds us to be  of a poorly written science project as 
this is because the  information of the novel technological process are  
valuable   , but  the farming community  is one who share the knowledge 
freely.Surely Keith know well how hard for him to get the  new BioD process 
information published in JFT, but incomplete information are always  available  
and here too the same is true .However  the project has good future even for 
small scale production in farm scale  as very good results have been reported 
for the product quality of BiOD, glycerol,recovered alcohol 



 The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process. 
Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids  > methyl esters. Stage
Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides > methyl
esters.

  Pannnir >>>>> The combined  reaction and separation known as reactive 
distillation is an advanced novel innovative  system  of chemical engineering  
process engineering subjects.I  am sure that l the small scale production in 
farm  can do benefit using this novel methods not as it is as this is complex 
units , but can be modified if one wish to get recovery of alcohol and glycerol 
   


 I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.

   


  Pannir >>>>>>> the product glycerol combine with ester  , making the  reverse 
reaction.If you can understand also the diverse  di  glycerol byproducts  
making the biofuel with less quality.The better the separation as soon this is 
formed better the yield , product quality.




 I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude
Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from
the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, 
washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would
distill washed and dried BD.

Pannirbr >>>>   Really we need more information and I can agree with you. I 
think it is not a simple distillation , but extractive distillation to recover 
back diverse  di ,tri esters formed.If you remember that this process new , the 
co products need to be recovered as  the catalyst is yet not an perfect one.



  The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the "New
Process" to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a
1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims 
that there is "no stirring"  .   I susp

Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Pagandai Pannirselvam]

 of academic one.

I wish also to get the comments  as our list has so many members from
several countries  , only very few members are involved here in recent
biofuel list discussions..The more younger list members views , our list
leader Keith  very balanced view need to make this topic very long debate
.Thus  the simple BioD process can be made possible by participation of all,
as the web2 social networking of this list members words are more powerful
and useful  to make the good shape for the green future of new generation
bio fuel from biomass for all the people ,which can be made possible  by
active participation of our list members , not by academics only or by
profit oriented big blue company. The new generation biofuel is like the new
wave  social web2 , the free open  process for several  billions farmer  to
be free and independent of the big blues globalised market .This the natural
way  for  green future for all , where all are included to have the
sustainable green fuel .


Kind regards

Pannirselvam P.V




- Original Message -

From: "Christopher & Jacqueline Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:53 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


> This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so
> called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their
> process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.
>
> Anyone care to comment?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
>
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> messages):
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>
>
>



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--
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DEQ – Departamento de Engenharia Química
CT – Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova – Natal/RN
Campus Universitário. CEP: 59.072-970
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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Trevon Kollars]

Looks like he is using high heat and pressure as the
aid in the process and apparently a lot of methanol.
This doesn't look like a homebrewer's use but someone
with a controlled lab might be able to do it.  And
possibly someone who has a little more money.


--- Christopher & Jacqueline Tan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This website
> http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm
> features a so
> called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see
> anything new about their
> process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.
> 
> Anyone care to comment?
> 
> Thanks
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> archives (50,000 messages):
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> 



   

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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Ken Chua]

Hi,

I guess using high temperature and pressure can push
the reaction to completion but it did not say how high
a temperature and pressure.  It would be dangerous for
backyarders like myself to tinker with such extreme
conditions without proper facilities and equipment. 
Maybe thats why the "founders" of biodiesel used the
process today.  Simple, easy and safer.

Though i'm open to try other stuff, some guidance is
very much appreciated starting with what temperature
and pressures are we talking about.

Best Regards to everyone.
Ken Chua

--- Christopher & Jacqueline Tan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This website
> http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm
> features a so
> called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see
> anything new about their
> process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.
> 
> Anyone care to comment?
> 
> Thanks
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Thomas Kelly]

Chris,
 I agree with you when you say
  "I can't see anything new about their process and it doesn't seem to 
make any sense.".

 The "New Process" appears to be the two stage acid/base process.
Stage One involves esterification of fatty acids  > methyl esters. Stage 
Two is the transesterification of mono-, di-, triglycerides > methyl 
esters.
 I don't know why filtration is included in each stage prior to washing.
 I'm also confused about "Distilling" the washed and dried "Crude 
Biodiesel" to get "Biodiesel". While it is possible to recover methanol from 
the glycerine mix and even from the unwashed biodiesel by distillation, 
washing removes any excess methanol, so I can't imagine why one would 
distill washed and dried BD.
  The 30 minute reaction time referred (as an advantage of the "New 
Process" to is only for Stage One (acid esterification). There is still a 
1 -2 hour base catalyzed transesterification (Stage Two). It also claims 
that there is "no stirring"  .   I suspect this is wrong.
  It says that the "Classic Process" cannot use soy, rapeseed, palm, 
coconut, sunflower, jatropa, recycled oil (WVO), or lard 
 Wrong again.

 It reminds me of a poorly written science project.

   Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Christopher & Jacqueline Tan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 3:53 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"


> This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so
> called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their
> process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.
>
> Anyone care to comment?
>
> Thanks
> Chris
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
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>
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> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
> 



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[Biofuel] Biodiesel "New Process"

[Christopher & Jacqueline Tan]

This website http://www.inet.hr/~jkuftine/en/biodizel.htm features a so
called 'New Process" but, frankly, I can't see anything new about their
process and it doesn't seem to make any sense.

Anyone care to comment?

Thanks
Chris



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