Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
I was thinking a typical 110 VAC gas or diesel generator, like what would be found on a small construction site. - Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process > > > Jason and Katie wrote: > > >If I'm reading this patent paper right, the reaction can happen at less than > >500mA using the methoxide catalyst as an electrolyte, but you need more than > >800 volts to create the field strength necessary for a proper conversion. is > >this correct? > > > Unless I missed something the paper says you do not need methoxide > catalyst. The reaction is supposed to involve a renewable oil and an > alcohol and and electric current. > > >could someone read the paper and tell me if i'm nuts? you can > >make ~12 amps with a 1500W AC generator, and even considering the draw > >nessecary for conversion from AC to DC there would be PLENTY left for the > >reaction, almost 9 amps. > > > Well this is a little hasty. Your generator produces what voltage? > Conidering ohm's law you are only going to get as much current flowing > as the voltage/resistance will allow. Dry oil is a dielectric, in other > words it has high resistivity. So does alcohol if it is anhydrous. For > instance I can suspend two copper rods in a mixture of oil and methanol > at a distance of 5 milimeters separation between the parallel surfaces > and apply 2000 vdc and get virtually no current. You will need a very > special generator to do this job. I have constructed a power supply > with a high voltage transformer and a 'stack' which is a chain of HV > diodes and capacitors which can deliver upwards of 300 mA at several > kilovolts for this purpose. I have a background in maintaining plasma > equipment and particle accelerators which run up into the hundreds of > kilovolts DC and I would suggest that unless you are experienced with > high voltage, even if you are and electronics technician you should > think twice ( or ten times) before you go casually fiddling with HV > stuff. Remember a couple of joules can be lethal and with DC you don't > get a chance to let go 60 times every second like you do with AC! > > >i fail to see the reason why more people haven't > >been looking into this process, i am certainly going to try it. anyone have > >an idea if a switching or linear supply would be better? > > > > > The supply they used in the abstract sounds like a regulated DC supply > with pulse capability and isolated output. References to ground loops > messing up the regulation circuitry tells me this. Initially I assumed > this choice of supply was a poor one and that an unregulated supply > would be less constraining. Initial test results as posted earlier > indicated that the oil/alcohol mixture could withstand much higher field > strengths than one would gather from reading the abstract - on the order > of 650 V/mm before dielectric breakdown occured. No sign of hydrogen > bubbles was seen at field strengths below breakdown. Of course plenty > of bubbles are in evidence in the presence of an submerged arc but these > are most likely vaporised oil. The abstract does say that conditions at > the anode during reaction involve temperatures in the range of 1600 deg. > C. and are strongly oxidizing which makes me wonder now if the regulated > supply was actually sustaining and regulating an arc and this is how the > reaction is supposed to proceed?? This is a big question mark at the > present time. Once ionization happens all bets are off as far as > thinking about how liquid reactions normally take place. Plasma > reactions can account for many weird and wonderful pairings of ionic > species depending on energy and ionization levels and the field is > really not that well understood at the practical level, even for vacuum > systems where the majority of the knowledge was derived. My simple > supply is not capable of regulating under arc conditions so I have > reached a temporary impass. I also find it hard to know if any reaction > has taken place during some of the experiments I have done since there > is no visual indication to be expected as with the conventional BD > process, i.e. no glycerine precipitate! > > Regards > Joe > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Jason and Katie wrote: >If I'm reading this patent paper right, the reaction can happen at less than >500mA using the methoxide catalyst as an electrolyte, but you need more than >800 volts to create the field strength necessary for a proper conversion. is >this correct? > Unless I missed something the paper says you do not need methoxide catalyst. The reaction is supposed to involve a renewable oil and an alcohol and and electric current. >could someone read the paper and tell me if i'm nuts? you can >make ~12 amps with a 1500W AC generator, and even considering the draw >nessecary for conversion from AC to DC there would be PLENTY left for the >reaction, almost 9 amps. > Well this is a little hasty. Your generator produces what voltage? Conidering ohm's law you are only going to get as much current flowing as the voltage/resistance will allow. Dry oil is a dielectric, in other words it has high resistivity. So does alcohol if it is anhydrous. For instance I can suspend two copper rods in a mixture of oil and methanol at a distance of 5 milimeters separation between the parallel surfaces and apply 2000 vdc and get virtually no current. You will need a very special generator to do this job. I have constructed a power supply with a high voltage transformer and a 'stack' which is a chain of HV diodes and capacitors which can deliver upwards of 300 mA at several kilovolts for this purpose. I have a background in maintaining plasma equipment and particle accelerators which run up into the hundreds of kilovolts DC and I would suggest that unless you are experienced with high voltage, even if you are and electronics technician you should think twice ( or ten times) before you go casually fiddling with HV stuff. Remember a couple of joules can be lethal and with DC you don't get a chance to let go 60 times every second like you do with AC! >i fail to see the reason why more people haven't >been looking into this process, i am certainly going to try it. anyone have >an idea if a switching or linear supply would be better? > > The supply they used in the abstract sounds like a regulated DC supply with pulse capability and isolated output. References to ground loops messing up the regulation circuitry tells me this. Initially I assumed this choice of supply was a poor one and that an unregulated supply would be less constraining. Initial test results as posted earlier indicated that the oil/alcohol mixture could withstand much higher field strengths than one would gather from reading the abstract - on the order of 650 V/mm before dielectric breakdown occured. No sign of hydrogen bubbles was seen at field strengths below breakdown. Of course plenty of bubbles are in evidence in the presence of an submerged arc but these are most likely vaporised oil. The abstract does say that conditions at the anode during reaction involve temperatures in the range of 1600 deg. C. and are strongly oxidizing which makes me wonder now if the regulated supply was actually sustaining and regulating an arc and this is how the reaction is supposed to proceed?? This is a big question mark at the present time. Once ionization happens all bets are off as far as thinking about how liquid reactions normally take place. Plasma reactions can account for many weird and wonderful pairings of ionic species depending on energy and ionization levels and the field is really not that well understood at the practical level, even for vacuum systems where the majority of the knowledge was derived. My simple supply is not capable of regulating under arc conditions so I have reached a temporary impass. I also find it hard to know if any reaction has taken place during some of the experiments I have done since there is no visual indication to be expected as with the conventional BD process, i.e. no glycerine precipitate! Regards Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
sorry mr Provost, i guess i should have said so. i am a certified electronics tech and im trying to make my work a little easier with something i understand (electronics) because when it comes to chemistry, all i can do is follow the instructions and cross my fingers. jason --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
If I'm reading this patent paper right, the reaction can happen at less than 500mA using the methoxide catalyst as an electrolyte, but you need more than 800 volts to create the field strength necessary for a proper conversion. is this correct? could someone read the paper and tell me if i'm nuts? you can make ~12 amps with a 1500W AC generator, and even considering the draw nessecary for conversion from AC to DC there would be PLENTY left for the reaction, almost 9 amps. i fail to see the reason why more people haven't been looking into this process, i am certainly going to try it. anyone have an idea if a switching or linear supply would be better? - Original Message - From: "Ken Provost" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > On Nov 2, 2005, at 7:41 PM, Andrew Lowe wrote: > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/ax4md - From this list > > http://tinyurl.com/cao7s - From this list > > http://tinyurl.com/93vqc - US Patent Office > > > > > > Thanks -- this thread has been going for so long, > I think I missed the original. Pardon my skepticism. > Hopefully somebody else can also make it work :-) > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
On Nov 2, 2005, at 7:41 PM, Andrew Lowe wrote: > http://tinyurl.com/ax4md - From this list > http://tinyurl.com/cao7s - From this list > http://tinyurl.com/93vqc - US Patent Office > > Thanks -- this thread has been going for so long, I think I missed the original. Pardon my skepticism. Hopefully somebody else can also make it work :-) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Quoting Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Jason and Katie wrote: > > > OK, so if I were to put two plates 1mm apart then the voltage would > > only be > > supposedly 15 volts, but i would need more current as per the > > volumetrics of > > it? that makes more sense, but does anyone have the experience of > > actually > > doing it? what about equations? > > > No experience re biodiesel, but the equation is E=IR. Volts = amps x > ohms. > > BTW, does this actually have any known or theoretical application for > making > biodiesel, or is it just armchair speculation? I'm not aware of any > background > for the use of an electric field to catalyze or accelerate > transesterification > > -K [snip] http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg53877.html http://tinyurl.com/ax4md - From this list http://tinyurl.com/cao7s - From this list http://tinyurl.com/93vqc - US Patent Office ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
On Nov 2, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Jason and Katie wrote: > OK, so if I were to put two plates 1mm apart then the voltage would > only be > supposedly 15 volts, but i would need more current as per the > volumetrics of > it? that makes more sense, but does anyone have the experience of > actually > doing it? what about equations? No experience re biodiesel, but the equation is E=IR. Volts = amps x ohms. BTW, does this actually have any known or theoretical application for making biodiesel, or is it just armchair speculation? I'm not aware of any background for the use of an electric field to catalyze or accelerate transesterification -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
OK, so if I were to put two plates 1mm apart then the voltage would only be supposedly 15 volts, but i would need more current as per the volumetrics of it? that makes more sense, but does anyone have the experience of actually doing it? what about equations? From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - > The electric field strength should be proportional to just the linear > distance between electrodes. I believe the current needed to maintain > a given voltage differential would increase proportionally to the area > involved. --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hi Jason; Field strength is always specified as volts per distance, not volts per area. If the reaction happens at the electrode surface which most people would assume then the surface area will affect proportionately the amount of ion exchange that is happening per unit time. My experience is all with rarefied gasses in vacuum chambers and high field strengths. I work with plasmas. I have no idea about liquids, but it is a relatively simple thing for me to build the high voltage equipment. Once ionization happens all kinds of species can exist with varying probabilities in the plasma including compounds, radicals and ionized species. At this point I am wondering if the desired reaction happens under actual plasma conditions at high pressure (atmospheric or higher). There does not seem to be any joy in the absence of an arc even when the field strength is more than an order greater than specified in the abstract. Joe Jason and Katie wrote: What if there were flat electrodes for this, would the ratings still be V/mm or would there have to be a consideration of surface area? if the requirements were in V/mm^3 you could calculate an appropriate voltage for a certain flow rate, and the processor could be compacted the same way a heat exchanging device is. this would be extremely high tensile (4500 Volts, assuming 15 V/mm3) for a 10 lengthx30 widthx1mm thick chamber. any other numbers would have to come from a successful test, the15V are just prelim figures taken from a previous post by Mr. Joe Street and unfortunately have no connections to any test of my own, but if it helps someone with the process, maybe Mr. Street can crack it. Jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
The electric field strength should be proportional to just the linear distance between electrodes. I believe the current needed to maintain a given voltage differential would increase proportionally to the area involved. On 10/30/05, Jason and Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > What if there were flat electrodes for this, would the ratings still be V/mm > or would there have to be a consideration of surface area? if the > requirements were in V/mm^3 you could calculate an appropriate voltage for a > certain flow rate, and the processor could be compacted the same way a heat > exchanging device is. > > this would be extremely high tensile (4500 Volts, assuming 15 V/mm3) for a > 10 lengthx30 widthx1mm thick chamber. > > any other numbers would have to come from a successful test, the15V are just > prelim figures taken from a previous post by Mr. Joe Street and > unfortunately have no connections to any test of my own, but if it helps > someone with the process, maybe Mr. Street can crack it. > > > Jason > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
What if there were flat electrodes for this, would the ratings still be V/mm or would there have to be a consideration of surface area? if the requirements were in V/mm^3 you could calculate an appropriate voltage for a certain flow rate, and the processor could be compacted the same way a heat exchanging device is. this would be extremely high tensile (4500 Volts, assuming 15 V/mm3) for a 10 lengthx30 widthx1mm thick chamber. any other numbers would have to come from a successful test, the15V are just prelim figures taken from a previous post by Mr. Joe Street and unfortunately have no connections to any test of my own, but if it helps someone with the process, maybe Mr. Street can crack it. Jason ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hi Juan, the process that Joe is using is so... much more advanced than where I'm at, I'm just researching advanced processes here. I defer to others more information. Gary - Original Message - From: Juan B To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process Hello Joe, Gary and David, I was reading your post and it was a symphony to my eyes and mind. I am really interested in this process and I would like to know more about it. I would like to know where I could find more information related to this kind of reaction or process.Thank you Juan On 10/24/05, garutek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just to throw my cents worth out without having much of a clue about whatresults you are looking for exactly.>From what I know and if melting of the conductors is a concern. A high gradeof graphite has a melting point roughly 4 times that of oxygen free copper. if interested try a machine shop for used electrodes."just interested and surfing the future"Gary- Original Message -From: "Joe Street" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:33 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process > Well here is an update for what it's worth;>> I have been conducting experiments in a test tube with 20 ml new canola> oil and fresh industrial grade methanol. As per the suggestion I > started with smaller electrode gap and lower voltage to obtain the 15 to> 20 v/mm field strength as required in the abstract. Electrode> configuration is a rod sharpened to a point to concentrate field > strength adjacent to a flat plate. Electrode material is copper.> Mixture is an emulsion of 20% (v/v) methanol agitated by a stir bar and> heated to 60 degrees centigrade. With a gap of 1mm I increased the > applied voltage eventually to 120 Vdc which is the limit of my (little)> supply. There was very little current (in the tens of microamperes) at> this stage. I expected to see bubbles at the anode but the cloudiness > of the emulsion made this difficult. A solution with disolved methanol> saturated (I do not know the exact percentage as some methanol remained> undisolved on the surface) which is optically clear did not exhibit any > gas generation.> Next I increased the gap to 3 mm and brought out the scary supply. I> installed a 300 ma fuse at the HV output to protect the innocent and a> milliameter. Then, fire extinguisher in hand, I tried again. At > roughly 2kv the dielectric breakdown occured with 3mm gap for a Vbr of> about 670 V/mm. Of course there were many bubbles in that case. No> explosion though which was nice. Interestingly the protection fuse was > not taken out by the arc whch was my expectation. At this point I do> not know if this fact is due to the internal resistance of the supply> limiting current to a value the fuse could handle for the brief duration > of the arc or whether current was limited by conditions within the arc.> I will have to do a short circuit test of the supply tonight to find out> if it really has the balls to do 300 mA as I expect it should. > Since the abstract calls for 100% conversion and with excess methanol a> etherified glycerine which remains in solution, it is not clear what to> expect the end result to look like. There should not be a separation of > layers as in the traditional chemically catalyzed reaction. Since I do> not see bubbles I do not think much is happening. I wish I knew more> chemistry. I expect the reaction should take place on the surface of > the anode and it should not be in the presence of an arc. Close> observation at the tip at a voltage just below breakdown reveals a tiny> whisker of something black (carbon??) grows towards the cathode and > dances in the swirling current until it gets close enough and> precipitates another arc. This could be something very interesting but> I expect it has nothing to do with fuel :-( .> The abstract does talk about very high temperatures at the anode surface > and a strong oxidizing environment which makes me wonder if an arc is> supposed to be sustained? Anyone on the list care to comment?> Asside from proton NMR at this point I do not know how to shed more > light on the contents of the test tube after these shocking> experiments. This will require negotiations and the consumption of> beer...>> I wish I had some exciting
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hello Joe, Gary and David, I was reading your post and it was a symphony to my eyes and mind. I am really interested in this process and I would like to know more about it. I would like to know where I could find more information related to this kind of reaction or process. Thank you JuanOn 10/24/05, garutek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just to throw my cents worth out without having much of a clue about whatresults you are looking for exactly.>From what I know and if melting of the conductors is a concern. A high gradeof graphite has a melting point roughly 4 times that of oxygen free copper. if interested try a machine shop for used electrodes."just interested and surfing the future"Gary- Original Message -From: "Joe Street" < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:33 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process > Well here is an update for what it's worth;>> I have been conducting experiments in a test tube with 20 ml new canola> oil and fresh industrial grade methanol. As per the suggestion I > started with smaller electrode gap and lower voltage to obtain the 15 to> 20 v/mm field strength as required in the abstract. Electrode> configuration is a rod sharpened to a point to concentrate field > strength adjacent to a flat plate. Electrode material is copper.> Mixture is an emulsion of 20% (v/v) methanol agitated by a stir bar and> heated to 60 degrees centigrade. With a gap of 1mm I increased the > applied voltage eventually to 120 Vdc which is the limit of my (little)> supply. There was very little current (in the tens of microamperes) at> this stage. I expected to see bubbles at the anode but the cloudiness > of the emulsion made this difficult. A solution with disolved methanol> saturated (I do not know the exact percentage as some methanol remained> undisolved on the surface) which is optically clear did not exhibit any > gas generation.> Next I increased the gap to 3 mm and brought out the scary supply. I> installed a 300 ma fuse at the HV output to protect the innocent and a> milliameter. Then, fire extinguisher in hand, I tried again. At > roughly 2kv the dielectric breakdown occured with 3mm gap for a Vbr of> about 670 V/mm. Of course there were many bubbles in that case. No> explosion though which was nice. Interestingly the protection fuse was > not taken out by the arc whch was my expectation. At this point I do> not know if this fact is due to the internal resistance of the supply> limiting current to a value the fuse could handle for the brief duration > of the arc or whether current was limited by conditions within the arc.> I will have to do a short circuit test of the supply tonight to find out> if it really has the balls to do 300 mA as I expect it should. > Since the abstract calls for 100% conversion and with excess methanol a> etherified glycerine which remains in solution, it is not clear what to> expect the end result to look like. There should not be a separation of > layers as in the traditional chemically catalyzed reaction. Since I do> not see bubbles I do not think much is happening. I wish I knew more> chemistry. I expect the reaction should take place on the surface of > the anode and it should not be in the presence of an arc. Close> observation at the tip at a voltage just below breakdown reveals a tiny> whisker of something black (carbon??) grows towards the cathode and > dances in the swirling current until it gets close enough and> precipitates another arc. This could be something very interesting but> I expect it has nothing to do with fuel :-( .> The abstract does talk about very high temperatures at the anode surface > and a strong oxidizing environment which makes me wonder if an arc is> supposed to be sustained? Anyone on the list care to comment?> Asside from proton NMR at this point I do not know how to shed more > light on the contents of the test tube after these shocking> experiments. This will require negotiations and the consumption of> beer...>> I wish I had some exciting news> Joe >>>>> David Miller wrote:>>> Joe Street wrote:>>>>> Hi Joe;>>>>>> Right. The abstract talks about a relationship between higer >>> voltages and longer carbon chains in the ester which translates into>>> higher fuel energy content (cetane rating? I don't know if that is>>> equivalent I am no chemist). I suspect the issue is more >>>>>>>> I missed the beginning of the thread, but it sounds like you're on a>> great test to see if you can refine something with an electric field.>> I just wanted to make two comments to try and help. >>>> 1) Cetane
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Just to throw my cents worth out without having much of a clue about what results you are looking for exactly. >From what I know and if melting of the conductors is a concern. A high grade of graphite has a melting point roughly 4 times that of oxygen free copper. if interested try a machine shop for used electrodes. "just interested and surfing the future" Gary - Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process > Well here is an update for what it's worth; > > I have been conducting experiments in a test tube with 20 ml new canola > oil and fresh industrial grade methanol. As per the suggestion I > started with smaller electrode gap and lower voltage to obtain the 15 to > 20 v/mm field strength as required in the abstract. Electrode > configuration is a rod sharpened to a point to concentrate field > strength adjacent to a flat plate. Electrode material is copper. > Mixture is an emulsion of 20% (v/v) methanol agitated by a stir bar and > heated to 60 degrees centigrade. With a gap of 1mm I increased the > applied voltage eventually to 120 Vdc which is the limit of my (little) > supply. There was very little current (in the tens of microamperes) at > this stage. I expected to see bubbles at the anode but the cloudiness > of the emulsion made this difficult. A solution with disolved methanol > saturated (I do not know the exact percentage as some methanol remained > undisolved on the surface) which is optically clear did not exhibit any > gas generation. > Next I increased the gap to 3 mm and brought out the scary supply. I > installed a 300 ma fuse at the HV output to protect the innocent and a > milliameter. Then, fire extinguisher in hand, I tried again. At > roughly 2kv the dielectric breakdown occured with 3mm gap for a Vbr of > about 670 V/mm. Of course there were many bubbles in that case. No > explosion though which was nice. Interestingly the protection fuse was > not taken out by the arc whch was my expectation. At this point I do > not know if this fact is due to the internal resistance of the supply > limiting current to a value the fuse could handle for the brief duration > of the arc or whether current was limited by conditions within the arc. > I will have to do a short circuit test of the supply tonight to find out > if it really has the balls to do 300 mA as I expect it should. > Since the abstract calls for 100% conversion and with excess methanol a > etherified glycerine which remains in solution, it is not clear what to > expect the end result to look like. There should not be a separation of > layers as in the traditional chemically catalyzed reaction. Since I do > not see bubbles I do not think much is happening. I wish I knew more > chemistry. I expect the reaction should take place on the surface of > the anode and it should not be in the presence of an arc. Close > observation at the tip at a voltage just below breakdown reveals a tiny > whisker of something black (carbon??) grows towards the cathode and > dances in the swirling current until it gets close enough and > precipitates another arc. This could be something very interesting but > I expect it has nothing to do with fuel :-( . > The abstract does talk about very high temperatures at the anode surface > and a strong oxidizing environment which makes me wonder if an arc is > supposed to be sustained? Anyone on the list care to comment? > Asside from proton NMR at this point I do not know how to shed more > light on the contents of the test tube after these shocking > experiments. This will require negotiations and the consumption of > beer... > > I wish I had some exciting news > Joe > > > > > David Miller wrote: > >> Joe Street wrote: >> >>> Hi Joe; >>> >>> Right. The abstract talks about a relationship between higer >>> voltages and longer carbon chains in the ester which translates into >>> higher fuel energy content (cetane rating? I don't know if that is >>> equivalent I am no chemist). I suspect the issue is more >> >> >> >> I missed the beginning of the thread, but it sounds like you're on a >> great test to see if you can refine something with an electric field. >> I just wanted to make two comments to try and help. >> >> 1) Cetane rating is a measure of the ignitability of the fuel. A high >> cetane rating is good in a diesel engine because it means the fuel >> starts combustion as soon as it's injected. It's the opposite of >> octane, which is a measure of a fuels ability to not ignite. >> >> Neither
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Well here is an update for what it's worth; I have been conducting experiments in a test tube with 20 ml new canola oil and fresh industrial grade methanol. As per the suggestion I started with smaller electrode gap and lower voltage to obtain the 15 to 20 v/mm field strength as required in the abstract. Electrode configuration is a rod sharpened to a point to concentrate field strength adjacent to a flat plate. Electrode material is copper. Mixture is an emulsion of 20% (v/v) methanol agitated by a stir bar and heated to 60 degrees centigrade. With a gap of 1mm I increased the applied voltage eventually to 120 Vdc which is the limit of my (little) supply. There was very little current (in the tens of microamperes) at this stage. I expected to see bubbles at the anode but the cloudiness of the emulsion made this difficult. A solution with disolved methanol saturated (I do not know the exact percentage as some methanol remained undisolved on the surface) which is optically clear did not exhibit any gas generation. Next I increased the gap to 3 mm and brought out the scary supply. I installed a 300 ma fuse at the HV output to protect the innocent and a milliameter. Then, fire extinguisher in hand, I tried again. At roughly 2kv the dielectric breakdown occured with 3mm gap for a Vbr of about 670 V/mm. Of course there were many bubbles in that case. No explosion though which was nice. Interestingly the protection fuse was not taken out by the arc whch was my expectation. At this point I do not know if this fact is due to the internal resistance of the supply limiting current to a value the fuse could handle for the brief duration of the arc or whether current was limited by conditions within the arc. I will have to do a short circuit test of the supply tonight to find out if it really has the balls to do 300 mA as I expect it should. Since the abstract calls for 100% conversion and with excess methanol a etherified glycerine which remains in solution, it is not clear what to expect the end result to look like. There should not be a separation of layers as in the traditional chemically catalyzed reaction. Since I do not see bubbles I do not think much is happening. I wish I knew more chemistry. I expect the reaction should take place on the surface of the anode and it should not be in the presence of an arc. Close observation at the tip at a voltage just below breakdown reveals a tiny whisker of something black (carbon??) grows towards the cathode and dances in the swirling current until it gets close enough and precipitates another arc. This could be something very interesting but I expect it has nothing to do with fuel :-( . The abstract does talk about very high temperatures at the anode surface and a strong oxidizing environment which makes me wonder if an arc is supposed to be sustained? Anyone on the list care to comment? Asside from proton NMR at this point I do not know how to shed more light on the contents of the test tube after these shocking experiments. This will require negotiations and the consumption of beer... I wish I had some exciting news Joe David Miller wrote: > Joe Street wrote: > >> Hi Joe; >> >> Right. The abstract talks about a relationship between higer >> voltages and longer carbon chains in the ester which translates into >> higher fuel energy content (cetane rating? I don't know if that is >> equivalent I am no chemist). I suspect the issue is more > > > > I missed the beginning of the thread, but it sounds like you're on a > great test to see if you can refine something with an electric field. > I just wanted to make two comments to try and help. > > 1) Cetane rating is a measure of the ignitability of the fuel. A high > cetane rating is good in a diesel engine because it means the fuel > starts combustion as soon as it's injected. It's the opposite of > octane, which is a measure of a fuels ability to not ignite. > > Neither has anything to do with energy content, they're just measures > of ignition properties. > > 2) If you're looking for electrochemical effects they're quite > certainly subject to electric field strength, not absolute voltage > differential. This is how you can scale production: move the plates > twice as far apart and you can get twice the fuel through it. But > you'll need twice the voltage to maintain E (electric field > strength). You made a reference to this effect, I'm just confirming it:) > > Hope this helps, > > --- David > >> correctly related to field strength than absolute voltage and >> electrode area and configuration is a dependant variable in this >> relationship. I could be wrong. I have designed a configuration >> which allows quick and easy modification of the electrode spacing and >> I also have developed a variable DC supply so I can control these >> variables. I can start with small spacing and low voltage, and still >> have a high
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hi Joe; Right. The abstract talks about a relationship between higer voltages and longer carbon chains in the ester which translates into higher fuel energy content (cetane rating? I don't know if that is equivalent I am no chemist). I suspect the issue is more correctly related to field strength than absolute voltage and electrode area and configuration is a dependant variable in this relationship. I could be wrong. I have designed a configuration which allows quick and easy modification of the electrode spacing and I also have developed a variable DC supply so I can control these variables. I can start with small spacing and low voltage, and still have a high field strength somewhere on the order of 15 V/mm. I also want to control flow rate. I am getting very close to being able to run a test. Currently my reactor is in use with the traditional chemical process but I plan to use the same vessel for these tests. I am planning to use the hydrogen as it is produced as an energy source for heating and drying zeolite which will be used to dry the ethanol used in the process. There is a lot to do. I'll keep you posted on the progress. It's so exciting! Joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi to all, I was thinking that the most important thing in the business of electrically catalizing a reaction is the current flowing through a given area of chemical. If this reaction is as fast as mentioned in the patent, then a larger area with closer spacing between anode and cathode and lower voltages should be tried first, before going to potentially lethal voltages. I hope to do some experiments with this process to. I will be looking forward to your results, Joe. Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/29/2005 09:23 AM Please respond to Biofuel To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org cc: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process Hi All; Just an update. I now have a variable 0-4Kv DC power supply capable of delivering 350 mA current. Now on to the electrode holder. :-) Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hi to all, I was thinking that the most important thing in the business of electrically catalizing a reaction is the current flowing through a given area of chemical. If this reaction is as fast as mentioned in the patent, then a larger area with closer spacing between anode and cathode and lower voltages should be tried first, before going to potentially lethal voltages. I hope to do some experiments with this process to. I will be looking forward to your results, Joe. Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 09/29/2005 09:23 AM Please respond to Biofuel To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org cc: Subject: Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process Hi All; Just an update. I now have a variable 0-4Kv DC power supply capable of delivering 350 mA current. Now on to the electrode holder. :-) Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Hi All; Just an update. I now have a variable 0-4Kv DC power supply capable of delivering 350 mA current. Now on to the electrode holder. :-) Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process - patent
Joe: Here is a link to the patent http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=biodeisel&s2=electrode&OS=biodeisel+AND+electrode&RS=biodeisel+AND+electrode United States Patent Application 20050120621 Kind Code A1 Lawson, J. Alan ; et al. June 9, 2005 Chemical synthesis method comprising electro-catalytic reaction and apparatus therefor Abstract Methods, systems, and devices are provided for synthesizing one or more chemical products from a renewable oil, comprising the step of flowing a fluid which comprises a renewable oil through a high voltage electrical field effective to catalyze a chemical reaction involving the renewable oil. Examples of renewable oils include vegetable oils, animal fats, bio-oils, and combinations thereof. In one embodiment, the fluid further comprises an alcohol mixed with the oil, and the chemical reaction produces biodiesel and an etherified glycerin. In one embodiment, the biodiesel is further reacted to produce acetic acid. From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] ws Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate) nowalternative biodiesel processDate: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:06:46 -0400>Hi Bob;>>Well although I agree if it aint broke don't fix it but according to >the original post this electrically activated process does not >require methoxide. If it is true what a nice advancement. >According to the original post IIRC it said the process involves >adding 15% methanol and the reaction happens at 85 deg C while >passing by a DC electrode of 3 to 5kv potential. Here I just found >and copied the text out of a reply to a previous post. The subject >line of the thread was Titanium (?)>>snip ->>Hi There:>>The following US patent offers making biodiesel by adding 15% MeOH>and running the mix at 85degC past very high DC electrode to get>100% conversion - no glycerine, it is converted to >1,2,3-proprionate.>The only other byproduct is hydrogen. Very cool, just a little>scary.>>http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=biodeisel&OS=biodeisel&RS=biodeisel > http://tinyurl.com/8hjv7>>Ray>>snip->>>The patent reference does not appear to be the right one. Ray??>>Joebob allen wrote:>>>Joe Street wrote:>Howdy Pardner>>bob allen wrote:>>>Howdy Joe (I just had to write "Hey Joe" before. its the lead to a Jimmy hendrix song I enjoy.)Yeah I get that a lot. When they ask me "where you goin with that >>>gun in your hand" I say "This is my rifle and this is my gun, >>>This is for shooting and this is for fun">>Ok thanks for your corrections and information below. As a >>>chemist you are a boon to this list. Have you given any thought >>>to the other thread about using some form of energy input to make >>>the esterification reaction go? Apparently it can be done with a >>>high electric field strength and passing the oil/alcohol mixture >>>at elevated temperature (and pressure I am guessing since the >>>vapor pressure of methanol at 85 deg C must be above atmoshpere). >>>I was also wondering about using intense UV light. Any thoughts?>To drive a chemical reaction, you need two things: Provide >>activation energy to move the reaction along and some way to force >>any equilibrium in the direction you want it to go (for reversible >>processes). Traditional base catalyzed transesterification uses >>heat to provide the activation energy and excess methanol to drive >>the equilibrium further.>>Other ways to provide the activation energy may be possible, but I >>would question whether one process was any more cost effective or >>energy efficient than the traditional methods. To make a long >>story short, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but for your >>average Joe(ok another feeble pun), stick with what works.___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] alternative biodiesel process
Bob, Do you have the link for the correct patent? Or can you repost the relevant information? Thanks! Randall - Original Message - From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] ws Sodium Methoxide MSDS (Sodium methylate)now alternative biodiesel process Joe, just a couple of comments. all kinds of claims can be made in patent applications, whether they work or not remains to be seen. the process is simple enough that one could try it and see. I did look at the patent application. some of their nomenclature is ambiguous, so it is not clear exactly what the products are claimed to be. BTW, the link you provided is unrelated. It discusses an enzyme catalyzed process. Joe Street wrote: Hi Bob; Well although I agree if it aint broke don't fix it but according to the original post this electrically activated process does not require methoxide. If it is true what a nice advancement. According to the original post IIRC it said the process involves adding 15% methanol and the reaction happens at 85 deg C while passing by a DC electrode of 3 to 5kv potential. Here I just found and copied the text out of a reply to a previous post. The subject line of the thread was Titanium (?) snip - Hi There: The following US patent offers making biodiesel by adding 15% MeOH and running the mix at 85degC past very high DC electrode to get 100% conversion - no glycerine, it is converted to 1,2,3-proprionate. The only other byproduct is hydrogen. Very cool, just a little scary. http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=biodeisel&OS=biodeisel&RS=biodeisel http://tinyurl.com/8hjv7 Ray snip- The patent reference does not appear to be the right one. Ray?? Joe bob allen wrote: Joe Street wrote: Howdy Pardner bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe (I just had to write "Hey Joe" before. its the lead to a Jimmy hendrix song I enjoy.) Yeah I get that a lot. When they ask me "where you goin with that gun in your hand" I say "This is my rifle and this is my gun, This is for shooting and this is for fun" Ok thanks for your corrections and information below. As a chemist you are a boon to this list. Have you given any thought to the other thread about using some form of energy input to make the esterification reaction go? Apparently it can be done with a high electric field strength and passing the oil/alcohol mixture at elevated temperature (and pressure I am guessing since the vapor pressure of methanol at 85 deg C must be above atmoshpere). I was also wondering about using intense UV light. Any thoughts? To drive a chemical reaction, you need two things: Provide activation energy to move the reaction along and some way to force any equilibrium in the direction you want it to go (for reversible processes). Traditional base catalyzed transesterification uses heat to provide the activation energy and excess methanol to drive the equilibrium further. Other ways to provide the activation energy may be possible, but I would question whether one process was any more cost effective or energy efficient than the traditional methods. To make a long story short, I haven't given it a lot of thought, but for your average Joe(ok another feeble pun), stick with what works. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob "Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
