Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
I like the idea of hydrogen, too, but take a look at www.biofuels.fsnet.co.uk/sustain.htm if you want to see what the disadvantages are. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
There are a variety of ways to produce hydrogen. Although the fundamental energy equations still apply, energy can be obtained from as you say hydroelectric, solar, geothermal, and algae. I think Iceland is big on this. Also compression isn't the only way to store the hydrogen. THEY'RE using hydrogen absorbing alloys and the like. I like hydrogen!!! Mike > -Original Message- > From: Trudy Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:07 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage > > > George Bush says it will work!! He uses fuzzy math!! > > Greg > > -- Original Message -- > From: "Biofuels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:36:52 +0100 > > > > > > >If the energy obtained from a given mass of hydrogen is 100% - > >the energy taken to make that hydrogen by hydrolysis is 130% > >It then takes another 30% to compress it for portability > >Making it, in all, in all 160% energy negative > > > >So much for the energy economy - unless you have access to unlimited > >hydro-electric power > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > href="http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html";>http://journeytofo > rever.org/biofuel.html > >Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > >To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/";>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
hydrolyser can be batch and thus self pressurizing. Kirk -Original Message- From: Biofuels [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 7:37 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage If the energy obtained from a given mass of hydrogen is 100% - the energy taken to make that hydrogen by hydrolysis is 130% It then takes another 30% to compress it for portability Making it, in all, in all 160% energy negative So much for the energy economy - unless you have access to unlimited hydro-electric power Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.264 / Virus Database: 136 - Release Date: 7/2/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
George Bush says it will work!! He uses fuzzy math!! Greg -- Original Message -- From: "Biofuels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:36:52 +0100 > > >If the energy obtained from a given mass of hydrogen is 100% - >the energy taken to make that hydrogen by hydrolysis is 130% >It then takes another 30% to compress it for portability >Making it, in all, in all 160% energy negative > >So much for the energy economy - unless you have access to unlimited >hydro-electric power > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >href="http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html";>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/";>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
"unlimited hydro-electric"..or wind, geothermal, nuclear, tidal, PV, biodiesel-genset-H tank, biodiesel-reformer-fuel cell...there are options to make this work and they will all be tried, but your point is taken that we don't get something for nothing. the diesel won't be around forever and at some point will be replaced, just as the advanced steam engines of the past were displaced by the diesel. In the meantime (20-50 years) many old and new diesels need a cleaner fuel option. -- Actually, any car is virtually pollution-free when it's in the garage. It's when we drive around in 'em that the problems start. Ed B. www.biofuels.ca > From: "Biofuels" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 14:36:52 +0100 > To: > Subject: Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage > > If the energy obtained from a given mass of hydrogen is 100% - > the energy taken to make that hydrogen by hydrolysis is 130% > It then takes another 30% to compress it for portability > Making it, in all, in all 160% energy negative > > So much for the energy economy - unless you have access to unlimited > hydro-electric power > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
If the energy obtained from a given mass of hydrogen is 100% - the energy taken to make that hydrogen by hydrolysis is 130% It then takes another 30% to compress it for portability Making it, in all, in all 160% energy negative So much for the energy economy - unless you have access to unlimited hydro-electric power Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
It probably will, if Bush sticks around long enough to have a say, we'll all have 12 cylinder cars in our garage that get 8 miles to the gallon - we'll just give the oil companies some more money to fly to the moon and extract oil from the green cheese --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Fossil fuels it'll be, methinks. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >They address the option of using a hydrocarbon >"dino"-fuel for powering a fuel cell, however I don't >think they realize that, at current technology levels, >liquid hydrogen is extremely hard to transport. >Hydrogen is also simply an energy transfer medium - it >takes 'x' units of energy to produce the hydrogen from >water, and the hydrogen supplies 'x' units of energy - >assuming 100% efficiency. One answer to be considered >is using a hydrocarbon that can both be produced >easily, and stored easily. Methane comes to mind, >easily produced from biomass, otherwise it's too early >in the morning for me to think to an excess. Fossil fuels it'll be, methinks. >I have to laugh every time I see the "FREE ENERGY >CAR" that gives you complete and total plans to >convert your old gas hog to burn hydrogen, you have a >couple of batteries running hydrolysis cells in the >trunk, the engine burns the hydrogen and the >alternator supplies power to the cells. The funny >thing is that this guy claims >100% efficiency. I >guess I don't need to mention that the guy selling >this idea is not rich, has never produced a working >model, probably never graduated 9th grade, and sings >in a local band somewhere on the west coast [USA] Hell, I wouldn't mind singing in a local band somewhere on the west coast. :-) >--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > It sounds too good to be true -- an automotive power If it sounds that way it usually is that way. Regards Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
They address the option of using a hydrocarbon "dino"-fuel for powering a fuel cell, however I don't think they realize that, at current technology levels, liquid hydrogen is extremely hard to transport. Hydrogen is also simply an energy transfer medium - it takes 'x' units of energy to produce the hydrogen from water, and the hydrogen supplies 'x' units of energy - assuming 100% efficiency. One answer to be considered is using a hydrocarbon that can both be produced easily, and stored easily. Methane comes to mind, easily produced from biomass, otherwise it's too early in the morning for me to think to an excess. I have to laugh every time I see the "FREE ENERGY CAR" that gives you complete and total plans to convert your old gas hog to burn hydrogen, you have a couple of batteries running hydrolysis cells in the trunk, the engine burns the hydrogen and the alternator supplies power to the cells. The funny thing is that this guy claims >100% efficiency. I guess I don't need to mention that the guy selling this idea is not rich, has never produced a working model, probably never graduated 9th grade, and sings in a local band somewhere on the west coast [USA] --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It sounds too good to be true -- an automotive power > source that > efficiently converts a limitless supply of chemical > energy into > electricity without producing smog-causing > emissions. > > But if we want fuel cells to run cleanly, why power > them with > polluting fossil fuels? The answer to that question > reveals the most > significant challenge facing fuel cell vehicles > today. > __ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=11157 AlterNet -- A Pollution-Free Car in Every Garage Peter Castles, Chico News and Review http://www.newsreview.com/chico July 10, 2001 It sounds too good to be true -- an automotive power source that efficiently converts a limitless supply of chemical energy into electricity without producing smog-causing emissions. But more and more, hydrogen fuel-cell-powered vehicles are being touted as The Answer. To our everyday air quality problems. To the long-term threat that continued burning of fossil fuels poses to the environment and our atmosphere. To skyrocketing gasoline prices, the dwindling supply of petroleum, and America's shaky dependence on foreign oil. The nascent fuel cell technology appears so promising that many in the automotive and energy industries are already claiming it's just a matter of time before hydrogen becomes the fuel of choice for motor vehicles. A recent article in Popular Science magazine went so far as to opine that the fuel cell might represent the "biggest leap in automotive history -- a practical replacement for the internal combustion engine." Whoa! Have we discovered a path to energy Nirvana here? Are we finally poised to wean our petrochemically dependent society off the parched and withered teat of Mother Earth's shrinking hydrocarbon deposits, from which we've so selfishly gulped all these years? After countless false starts and half-hearted efforts to incorporate cleaner, renewable alternative fuels into the energy mix, perhaps we are finally due for some real and lasting change. If it's any indication, fuel cell politics has already made some strange bedfellows, as major automakers and energy corporations find themselves collaborating in earnest with regulators, technology manufacturers and clean-air advocates to develop this cheap and enormously abundant source of power. But while there are certainly many respected voices who think that fuel cells are positioned to change the face of transportation, most also admit that, as with any groundbreaking technology, there are significant hurdles to clear before hydrogen-powered vehicles gain widespread viability. So what are fuel cells and how do they work? Simply put, fuel cells combine hydrogen with oxygen to produce electricity -- without combustion. Compared to the complexities of the internal-combustion engine, the process of producing energy with the fuel cell is remarkably straightforward. The fuel cell has no moving parts and relies on the most ubiquitous substance in the universe, hydrogen, as its power source. The result is clean energy with no nasty emissions. The only waste is heat and water. The hydrogen fuel cell concept is no real marvel of science -- in fact, the first fuel cell device was created way back in 1839 by British inventor Sir William Grove. But practical applications remained elusive until the 1960s, when NASA began developing the technology to power equipment onboard its spacecraft. Today, fuel cells continue to provide electricity (and even potable water) for the space shuttle. Only recently has the technology advanced into the realm of viability for vehicle use. Initially, developing fuel cells for transportation purposes involved bulky and expensive prototypes limited by the techniques of producing and storing hydrogen. But exponential advances in technology and design have brought rapid reductions in the size of the power plants, yielding new models that now feature nearly as much usable interior space as conventional cars. "The technology has undergone a dramatic curve of improvements. You can liken it to the computer revolution, in that fuel cells have become smaller but much more powerful," says Joe Irvin, spokesman for the Fuel Cell Partnership, a California-based collaborative of automakers, government agencies, manufacturers, and energy companies that comprises the world's foremost test center for fuel-cell-powered vehicles. Although most fuel cells being tested in vehicles are powered by pure hydrogen, which is stored onboard in secure tanks, engineers are also considering the possibility of installing reformer systems that produce hydrogen from carbon-based fuel sources such as gasoline and methanol. But if we want fuel cells to run cleanly, why power them with polluting fossil fuels? The answer to that question reveals the most significant challenge facing fuel cell vehicles today. Though fuel cell vehicles are nearly a market reality, with some automakers projected to roll out limited numbers as early as 2004, the fueling infrastructure needed to service larger numbers will take years, perhaps decades, to establish. That's why many believe the most likely route for commercialization of fuel cells will be through fleet vehicles. A shift to hydrogen for city buses and delivery trucks would help reduce the cost of manufacturing fuel cells while helping to win public
