Re: [biofuel] Handy alternative
At 04:28 PM 10/7/03 -0400, you wrote: >Hi Walt >I appreciate your friendly response :) My pleasure. I'm enjoying following along. >An electrolysis cell can compress the effluent as well, but it requires >more energy. Agreed. >I think you'll find that this cell requires more energy if >you're compressing the output to 3,000 PSI. Agreed, but the use would be to consume excess wind energy and store it, so that's okay. >Any chemical reaction has factors that cause it to occur or slow down. >The ability for the gas to "get away" (the pressure) is a driving force >for the reaction. Not sure I follow you there. As I recollect, in traditional electrolysis systems, an increase in either temperature pressure results in an increase in efficiency. Within limits, of course. >> 2) The patent indicates that the process uses 35 VDC and is >> interruptible, >>which makes it a good match for intermittent wind power sites. It's also a >>lot simpler design than what's needed for standard electrolysis, something >>which helps the small user considerably. >> >> >An electrolysis cell is interruptable as well. I don't see how it is a >lot simpler. Do you? I believe I do. Part of it has to do with the need to separate the H2 from the O2 in a traditional electrolysis cell, and this patent's alleged ability to generate a non-explosive fuel gas that does not require separation. Note: the technology described in the patent is significantly different from what's shown on the website. The second big advantage is that you could drink the solution used in the patented system (a sugar/water solution is described in the patent) whereas the electrolyte used in traditional electrolysis cells is 30% KOH, a solution which requires skilled operators, special equipment and a high degree of caution and training in order to build and/or maintain the cell in working order. A third advantage is that traditional cells require that you manage two gas output flows, one of which is coming off at twice the volume of the other, and that involves two storage tanks. It's tricky to maintain and equal pressure within the cells when one element is off-gassing at twice the flow rate of the other. A forth advantage, at least for us, is that we already have a good power supply to use to test out the process in the form of our hi-freq heli-arc welder. Although they don't mention using a hi-freq pulse to initiate the arc, that's how it's done in air. FWIW, I'm part of an intentional community located on 111 acres in the woods (south central Washington state), and I have enough of a problem getting people here to comprehend the details of our gravity feed water system. Not that my fellows here are idiots, in fact they're quite bright, but anything I can do to make potentially hazardous systems "idiot proof" is generally worth doing. Thanks for the interesting questions, Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Handy alternative
At 05:01 AM 10/8/03 +0900, Keith wrote: >Hello Walt > >All fair enough, just want to comment on this bit: Please do :-) >For my part, I'm sceptical about these claims, but I'm not really >negative about it, though many are, "free energy" is almost a >blasphemy to some. With just cause. It's a bit like Heinlein's comment that "When a man speaks of his honor, make him pay cash." >I do believe there's an answer to the energy >problem, a REAL answer, that remains to be found, but all the snake >oil doesn't help at all, it discourages and hampers any real >research. It's the scammers I'm against, not free energy per se. I'm with you, although I'm personally more concerned with folks using alternative energy technology in an attempt to with a Darwin Award. I don't mind it so much when fools loose their money; I'd just rather they didn't lose body parts since it gives people grounds to talk. >So far the scepticism's been well-founded. Look at this one, for >instance, from about 18 months ago - I haven't checked the links, no >need, sadly: Again, we're on the same page, probably the one that bears Jefferson's comment that, those who wish to be ignorant and free, want what never was and never soon shall be. >We had rather an interesting discussion here awhile back on what to >do if you'd discovered a viable, cheap, energy source anyone could >use anywhere, true energy independence - how would you handle it? How >would you stop it getting bought out and locked up in a little box in >back room somewhere, for instance? There's nothing more radical than a working model of a better way, so I would (we are) just get on with it, build a working model of the concept, and see that the information was as widely dispersed as possible. Here's an example from the current edition of our newsletter - http://www.windward.org/notes/notes63/wal63_b.htm >"1635 - first of many English perpetual motion machine patents >granted. - by 1903, 600 such patents had been granted. Free energy >claimants love impressing people with patents (most people don't >understand that a patent can't promise feasibility)." >http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html Well, a fool and his money are soon parted. [I do seem full of cliches these days, so I hope you'll bear with me :-) Still, I'm more respectful of someone's assertions when they've gone through the exercise of filing a patent application, and been successful, than I am for those who have secret methods that they don't dare off up for public scrutiny because "you know who" will scarf up their work and cheat them out of their just rewards. Pah! My perspective is that it's a grand, never-ending relay race in which we each get the privilege of running a lap or two. We stand on the shoulders of giants, and if we can advance the cause even a little bit, then that's great. Well, back to work. Thanks for the kind words and the frank thoughts. Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Handy alternative
Hi Walt I appreciate your friendly response :) I've added comments in the message below. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Walt Patrick wrote: >At 01:10 PM 10/7/03 -0400, Martin wrote: > >It's just another way of creating hydrogen from water, while burning some > >carbon in the process creating CO2 > >What's the big deal? > > Doesn't have to be a big deal in order to serve as a handy alternative > in >some cases. > > That's true, there are many 'alternatives'. > Our focus here is on converting biomass to methanol, and one of the > things >that's hard to use up is sawdust. It appears from the patents that it would >be possible to operate that system using a fluidized bed of sawdust and >generate CO and H2 which would be both storable and compressible, something >which a mix of O2 and H2 ain't. > > That's interesting, maybe I will try that. > Given the new "room temp" co-catalyst methanol technology, having such > a >handy source for syngas adds a nice degree of flexibility. Especially in >the set-up / break down/ try it again stage. > > > I'm further intrigued with this because: > > 1) The process is not pressure dependent. > > It's easy enough to compress a liquid to 3,000 psi; it's a whole lot > more >difficult to compress a gas to that degree. By being able to build to the >desired pressure within the reactor unit itself, you can get the >compression needed to fill aluminum scuba tanks. > > I've got enough room under the bed of my pickup to easily mount eight > 80 >CF tanks, and that's a respectable amount of fuel which will get me down >the road quite a ways before I run out and have to switch back to purchased >fuel. > > The key there is that by getting the first 50 miles "for free," and > being >able to switch back to propane when that runs out, I can cut down >considerably on the total amount of fuel which needs to be purchased. > > An electrolysis cell can compress the effluent as well, but it requires more energy. I think you'll find that this cell requires more energy if you're compressing the output to 3,000 PSI. Any chemical reaction has factors that cause it to occur or slow down. The ability for the gas to "get away" (the pressure) is a driving force for the reaction. > 2) The patent indicates that the process uses 35 VDC and is > interruptible, >which makes it a good match for intermittent wind power sites. It's also a >lot simpler design than what's needed for standard electrolysis, something >which helps the small user considerably. > > An electrolysis cell is interruptable as well. I don't see how it is a lot simpler. Do you? electrolysis cell: two plates aquagas (?) cell: two carbon rods + something to strike the arc and regulate the voltage > While I appreciate the skepticism, and agree that there's a lot of > snake >oil out there, I'm more than ready to give the benefit of the doubt to >articles that list actual patent numbers. > >with best wishes, > >Walt >http://www.windward.org/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Handy alternative
Hello Walt All fair enough, just want to comment on this bit: > While I appreciate the skepticism, and agree that there's a >lot of snake >oil out there, For my part, I'm sceptical about these claims, but I'm not really negative about it, though many are, "free energy" is almost a blasphemy to some. I do believe there's an answer to the energy problem, a REAL answer, that remains to be found, but all the snake oil doesn't help at all, it discourages and hampers any real research. It's the scammers I'm against, not free energy per se. So far the scepticism's been well-founded. Look at this one, for instance, from about 18 months ago - I haven't checked the links, no need, sadly: Irish inventor says he's cracked world's energy needs Wednesday, January 23, 2002 By Kevin Smith, Reuters http://www.remnantsaints.com/AlternativeUtilities/free_energy_Ireland.htm http://www.cosmiverse.com/science01230206.html Science News Irish Inventor Constructs Free Energy Device this device is so phenomenal that it "shatters the laws of science". http://www.chennaionline.com/science/invent.asp The power of invention A multi-meter reading of the batteries' voltage before the device started up showed a total of 48.9 volts. When it was switched off, a second reading showed 51.2 volts... And a website! - and a promise: http://www.jasker.com/ Jasker Power Systems International It is our objective to launch the Jasker Power Systems technology on a global basis. Details will be posted on our web-site as they are released. And now: http://www.jasker.com/ jasker.com :: this domain is for sale www.jasker.com $600 The owners of the domain name jasker.com are accepting offers from interested parties willing to obtain ownership rights over the domain name. You can place your bid by filling out the form below. :-( You see. We had rather an interesting discussion here awhile back on what to do if you'd discovered a viable, cheap, energy source anyone could use anywhere, true energy independence - how would you handle it? How would you stop it getting bought out and locked up in a little box in back room somewhere, for instance? >I'm more than ready to give the benefit of the doubt to >articles that list actual patent numbers. "1635 - first of many English perpetual motion machine patents granted. - by 1903, 600 such patents had been granted. Free energy claimants love impressing people with patents (most people don't understand that a patent can't promise feasibility)." http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html Best Keith >with best wishes, > >Walt >http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Handy alternative
At 01:10 PM 10/7/03 -0400, Martin wrote: >It's just another way of creating hydrogen from water, while burning some >carbon in the process creating CO2 >What's the big deal? Doesn't have to be a big deal in order to serve as a handy alternative in some cases. Our focus here is on converting biomass to methanol, and one of the things that's hard to use up is sawdust. It appears from the patents that it would be possible to operate that system using a fluidized bed of sawdust and generate CO and H2 which would be both storable and compressible, something which a mix of O2 and H2 ain't. Given the new "room temp" co-catalyst methanol technology, having such a handy source for syngas adds a nice degree of flexibility. Especially in the set-up / break down/ try it again stage. I'm further intrigued with this because: 1) The process is not pressure dependent. It's easy enough to compress a liquid to 3,000 psi; it's a whole lot more difficult to compress a gas to that degree. By being able to build to the desired pressure within the reactor unit itself, you can get the compression needed to fill aluminum scuba tanks. I've got enough room under the bed of my pickup to easily mount eight 80 CF tanks, and that's a respectable amount of fuel which will get me down the road quite a ways before I run out and have to switch back to purchased fuel. The key there is that by getting the first 50 miles "for free," and being able to switch back to propane when that runs out, I can cut down considerably on the total amount of fuel which needs to be purchased. 2) The patent indicates that the process uses 35 VDC and is interruptible, which makes it a good match for intermittent wind power sites. It's also a lot simpler design than what's needed for standard electrolysis, something which helps the small user considerably. While I appreciate the skepticism, and agree that there's a lot of snake oil out there, I'm more than ready to give the benefit of the doubt to articles that list actual patent numbers. with best wishes, Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
