Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
I was reading that -- Norman Schwarzkopf wants to give peace a chance. January 28, 2003 http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/388 Nelson Mandela accuses Bush of arrogance, racism Thu Jan 30, 2003 http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1c=Articlecid=1035777255405call_pageid=968332188492col=968705899037 The line grew longer today while folks walked around town on our peace vigil. Folks in another town the other day where saying that people where coming out the wood work with all the support being expressed while standing out on the USA highway intersection. One almost feels empowered in this land of the free and home of the brave. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Hi Hoagy Very good stuff, thanks for posting it. It's all clear enough, eh, for those with eyes to see and the will to use them. But I don't think Damian is interested in Chomsky, more fool him. Best Keith I am also very worried by the current trends in the US. I think most of use sense this worrisome trend in USA Democracy which can be listened to using RealPlayer (aka RealAudio) to get a little background that we so seldom here anymore from the dominant privatized US media stations -- Prospects for Democracy by Professor Noam Chomsky Capital Rules by Professor Noam Chomsky available in the Chomsky Archive http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/multimedia.cfm If some are interested in the other side of free speech in USA Democracy you might listen in with RealPlayer (aka RealAudio) January 28, 2003 U.S. Sold Chemical Weapons to Iraq Congressman Jim McDermott - State of the Union - Oil It's The Oil and Nothing But the Oil January 29, 2003 Scott Ritter, former UN weapons inspector ON BUSH'S STATE OF THE UNION POINT COUNTER POINT on Bush's State of the Union address http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/peacewatch/archive.html September 3, 2002 U.S. Blocks All Action On Renewable Energy At Earth Summit In Johannesburg Best-Selling Author Paul Hawken On Renewable Energy, Sustainable Living, And Reigning In Multinational Corporations Alternatives To Global Warming: Vegetable-Based 'Biodiesel' Fuel, And Actor Ed Begley Jr., On Electric Cars http://www.webactive.com/webactive/pacifica/demnow/dn20020903.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Hydrrogen Cars (was: Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH)
Hi Darryl Just a brief comment... snip Damian J. Anderson wrote: snip snip likely major source is electrolysis (requiring electricity). I'll be happy to discuss fuel cells, electric vehicles and electrical generation with you off-line or on another list (EVs, hydrogen fuel, fuel cells), but I don't think this is the appropriate place. I can also e-mail you my recent article on hydrogen fuel cells in the transportation sector (due for publication next month). In fact you're welcome to discuss all such things here. They're related subjects, it's hard to make a clearcut dividing line between them and biofuels, so please go ahead, if you wish. It's highly unlikely you'll turn it into a, EV list or a fuel cells list, I'm sure we'll survive. g Regards Keith Darryl McMahon One question of economic significance would be how to generate hydrogen cheaply. Damian snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
I think that we have a troll in here .. it is starting to sound like the John Grant thread on energy renewables. Keith, any comments Hi James Definitely - yes, a John Grant lookalike. I'm sorry, I've hardly managed to spend any time at the computer the last few days, though I've been aware this was happening. I'll mend my ways forthwith. See next, or after next, or something. Sigh... Best Keith On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Damian J. Anderson wrote: Nick, Do you have scientific data to show that biofuel is cleaner than petroleum? Does it not depend on the engine? My car is certified as an Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle. I guess if you are running a 20 year old gas guzzler, it may run in a dirty way, but good modern engines are very clean. Damian On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: Damian, I think you missed one major point about 'biofullers': Biofuel is much much cleaner than dino-fuel, so people prefer to use biodiesel where possible. Even though it may cost me more to run my van on Biodiesel, I will be smiling at the thought of 99% less pollutants. Oil is dirty. Diesel is dirty. That's why people won't use it unless they have to when there is an alternative. It's a simple equation, not really to do with the oil giants.. Kind Regards Nick Taylor, Technical Consultant. SMTechnology.com -Original Message- From: Damian J. Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 January 2003 17:13 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
NeilUSA wrote: At 09:31 Tuesday, you wrote: Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! I understand though that the vegi-diesel still smells of french fries (or whatever the feed stock came from). You may need to deoderize the biodiesel. Whyever, Neil? Every now and then someone suggests this and it always puzzles me. Actually it smells more like a BBQ. People don't object to the smell, it doesn't irritate their eyes or make them cough (according to results of indoor use for forklift trucks etc, and I think mining equipment). Dogs (and bears) love it: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_nox.html And nobody ever bothered about deodorizing dinodiesel, which stinks and irritates. Does anybody here find that the smell of their biuod exhaust is something worth deodorizing? Best Keith Are electric cars treated the same? You might consider heating your company spaces with the heat given out by a vegi-diesel run genset used to charge up your electric cars/vans? Often time, an end run is more effective than butting heads with the likes of one's elected tyrants. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Well, I know that you can get your crude oil de-odorized and bleached also, so making BD out of some de-odorized would probably inheirit that quality. Personally, I like the smell of WVO BD, both in liquid and exhaust form. =) Maybe it's the junk food connection James Slayden On Sat, 1 Feb 2003, Keith Addison wrote: NeilUSA wrote: At 09:31 Tuesday, you wrote: Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! I understand though that the vegi-diesel still smells of french fries (or whatever the feed stock came from). You may need to deoderize the biodiesel. Whyever, Neil? Every now and then someone suggests this and it always puzzles me. Actually it smells more like a BBQ. People don't object to the smell, it doesn't irritate their eyes or make them cough (according to results of indoor use for forklift trucks etc, and I think mining equipment). Dogs (and bears) love it: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_nox.html And nobody ever bothered about deodorizing dinodiesel, which stinks and irritates. Does anybody here find that the smell of their biuod exhaust is something worth deodorizing? Best Keith Are electric cars treated the same? You might consider heating your company spaces with the heat given out by a vegi-diesel run genset used to charge up your electric cars/vans? Often time, an end run is more effective than butting heads with the likes of one's elected tyrants. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
At 09:31 Tuesday, you wrote: Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! I understand though that the vegi-diesel still smells of french fries (or whatever the feed stock came from). You may need to deoderize the biodiesel. Are electric cars treated the same? You might consider heating your company spaces with the heat given out by a vegi-diesel run genset used to charge up your electric cars/vans? Often time, an end run is more effective than butting heads with the likes of one's elected tyrants. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
You should understand that there are other universes of discourse than the cosy one you have chosen to inhabit. - Original Message - From: Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. The economics of bio diesel are far more attactive in tropical countries like India, where non-edible and waste processed vegetable oil is available at a landed cost of Rs. 12- Rs. 20/kg (US $ 0.84 - US $ 1.39/US Gallon assuming Rs. 48 =1 US $ and sp. gravity of oil/ bio diesel at 0.88). With roughly 1:1 (weight to weight ) conversion of the oil to bio diesel, the cost of bio diesel at US $ 0.84 -US $ 1.39/US Gallon is still far cheaper than petro diesel. If you factor in the 10% by weight of glycerine available as a by product of bio diesel manufacture, the economics are even more attractive. Refined glycerine sells for Rs 80/kg or Rs. 8/kg of bio deisel produced. Assuming cost of glycerine extraction/purification @ Rs. 2/kg, this translates into a hefty credit of US $ 0.13/ kg of bio diesel produced or US $ 0.56/ US Gallon, resulting in net cost of which puts it in a different league altogether. This of course does not take taxes on bio diesel inot account. But since the country as a whole is migrating to a VAT system avoiding cascading rates, this may add a maximum of 10% ad valorem to the cost of bio diesel. Petro diesel in India costs Rs. 21/lt or more in various states (US $ 1.66/US Gallon). And this petro diesel is also cross-subsidised by gasoline which hawks at Rs. 34/lt (US $ 2.68/ US Gallon) This price regime is likely to change in the near future with the total dismantling of the Administered Pricing Mechanism, which will make bio diesel eeven more attractive. The issue , therefore, is one of logistics in collection and distribution on which a number of groups here are working and not of economics at least in this neck of the woods. Krishnaswamy Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Hydrrogen Cars (was: Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH)
- Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 12:18 AM Subject: Hydrrogen Cars (was: Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH) Presumably he is referring to fuel cells, and not combustion. So we are actually talking about fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs). As you stated, hydrogen is not a biofuel, nor is it likely to be produced from biofuels in any significant quantity. Today, most is derived from petroleum production, and the next most likely major source is electrolysis (requiring electricity). Darryl McMahon (snip) I beg to disagree. Gasification of biomass is one of the most promising routes for conversion of solar energy to hydrogen with photosynthetic intermediation. Atmospheric gasification yields about 5% (w/w) per kg of biomass and another 4% (w/w) per kg of biomass can be generaed by steam reforming carbon monoxide in the producer gas. The cost of hydrogen in situ so generated is an order of magnitude cheaper than that from electrolysis. Krishnaswamy o Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
I am also very worried by the current trends in the US. I think most of use sense this worrisome trend in USA Democracy which can be listened to using RealPlayer (aka RealAudio) to get a little background that we so seldom here anymore from the dominant privatized US media stations -- Prospects for Democracy by Professor Noam Chomsky Capital Rules by Professor Noam Chomsky available in the Chomsky Archive http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/multimedia.cfm If some are interested in the other side of free speech in USA Democracy you might listen in with RealPlayer (aka RealAudio) January 28, 2003 U.S. Sold Chemical Weapons to Iraq Congressman Jim McDermott - State of the Union - Oil It's The Oil and Nothing But the Oil January 29, 2003 Scott Ritter, former UN weapons inspector ON BUSH'S STATE OF THE UNION POINT COUNTER POINT on Bush's State of the Union address http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/peacewatch/archive.html September 3, 2002 U.S. Blocks All Action On Renewable Energy At Earth Summit In Johannesburg Best-Selling Author Paul Hawken On Renewable Energy, Sustainable Living, And Reigning In Multinational Corporations Alternatives To Global Warming: Vegetable-Based 'Biodiesel' Fuel, And Actor Ed Begley Jr., On Electric Cars http://www.webactive.com/webactive/pacifica/demnow/dn20020903.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
I listened to all of them, At 12:14 PM 1/30/2003 -0600, you wrote: I am also very worried by the current trends in the US. I think most of use sense this worrisome trend in USA Democracy which can be listened to using RealPlayer (aka RealAudio) to get a little background that we so seldom here anymore from the dominant privatized US media stations -- Prospects for Democracy by Professor Noam Chomsky Capital Rules by Professor Noam Chomsky available in the Chomsky Archive http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/multimedia.cfm Very interesting, humorous and telling. Recommend it. If some are interested in the other side of free speech in USA Democracy you might listen in with RealPlayer (aka RealAudio) January 28, 2003 U.S. Sold Chemical Weapons to Iraq Congressman Jim McDermott - State of the Union - Oil It's The Oil and Nothing But the Oil January 29, 2003 Scott Ritter, former UN weapons inspector ON BUSH'S STATE OF THE UNION POINT COUNTER POINT on Bush's State of the Union address http://www.webactive.com/pacifica/peacewatch/archive.html Read about it many years ago, was at that time not really a secret. You can imagine Saddam Husseins surprise, that after he helped US against Iran, asked and thought that he got permission to occupy Kuweit, US mounted a war against him. All of this is documented and verified. September 3, 2002 U.S. Blocks All Action On Renewable Energy At Earth Summit In Johannesburg Best-Selling Author Paul Hawken On Renewable Energy, Sustainable Living, And Reigning In Multinational Corporations Alternatives To Global Warming: Vegetable-Based 'Biodiesel' Fuel, And Actor Ed Begley Jr., On Electric Cars http://www.webactive.com/webactive/pacifica/demnow/dn20020903.html Missed this, but are not surprised. Hakan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Damian Anderson wrote: Hmm. If you run a car on compressed air, does it not take energy to compress it? What do you run the compressor on? Gasoline? Check the archives, it's all been discussed here a few times. Also, if fossil fuel is from dinosaurs, is it not already bio fuel? From dinosaurs? Whatever gives you that idea? It comes from ancient, fossilized forests. Which means that, yes, it's biological in origin, but no, in the broadly accepted sense it's not a biofuel. Greg explained the difference a few days back: Some people might argue that oil, coal and other petrochemical stocks are derived from ancient biological sources, and so they might be included, but, true BioFuels come from renewable sources, that do not add to the burden on the atmosphere. Some people ask, How can BioFuels be better for the atmosphere, if you still burn them? . It is simple, the carbon dioxide (CO2 ), that is made when biofuels are burnt, recycles, back in the the plant material which they came from. So, fossil fuel is a finite resource, not renewable, it pollutes, and it raises atmospheric CO2 levels - the CO2 in fossil fuels was sequestered from the atmosphere over a long period, hundreds of millions of years ago, and now we're releasing it all within a century, overloading the atmosphere. Biofuels are renewable, not pulluting or very much less polluting, and the CO2 released when burning them is part of the current biological cycle and is simply reabsorbed by growing plants. There are those who say however that petroleum is primordial and that it was created with the Earth itself. Do we really know the origin of petroleum? I think the conventional explanation is satisfactory, despite various fringe theories which don't hold a lot of water (let alone oil)... not that it matters. I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. This is pretty thorough-going nonsense, see my reply to your other poist. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. There's also a lot in the archives about this. You take a peculiarly American view that somehow leaves out of the whole equation the crucial effect US interest and interference, both official and corporate, have had on that whole region, and continues to have. Time and again the US has suppressed democratic initiatives there for the sake of Big Oil. Now when it starts to backfire on you you simply want to walk away from it all. Typical. Please check the archives before dragging up all the old arguments again that have already been dealt with. And please remember that there are list members here from all over the world, including the Arab countries, not just Americans - not even a majority of Americans. Keith Addison Damian Anderson On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: There is a discussion group for the air car here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/ I've always thought it was an interesting concept and I try to keep my eye on it, though they have not impressed me as really making progress yet in business. Perhaps they will yet. Their business model seems to be to franchise out their idea in some way. I'm not a fan of that. The air car was mentioned a few years ago in relation to trying to help Mexico City cure some of its air pollution problems (i.e., zero non-air emissions at the vehicle). As to the derivations of petroleum, I guess there could be some debate, but anyway, I just tend to think of all bio and other fuels outside of ground-sourced as synthetic insofar as they're made by man taking action to do some
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Speaking petroleum prices some USA radio programs were mentioning the Iraq crude would cost about $1 USD per barrel to pump from the Iraq oil fields averaging 600 metres below the surface. If true that would make some US/UK petroleum companies happy (particularly Exxon, Chevron and BP, Shell) but it would make China, France and Russia even happier if they get the opportunity referring to the profit margin. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Dear Damian, Another skewed view about dictatorships and democracy. Many of what we historically consider as the the worst examples of dictators, was duly elected by the people in a democratic system. On state or country level, some countries try to apply very global dictatorship towards the world community. That is the true dictatorship, not elected in any democratic way and maintained by military power. I would be very careful in waving the democracy and social justice flag if I was from US, especially at the current times. Nor does US have a very clean history to be proud of. It is naive to believe in any absolute justice, even if it is a noble goal and a dream worth while pursuing. To belive that US have achieved some sort of near perfect status, is very wrong and extremely dangerous. I would not place them very high on the list of good democracies (within top 30), but this is a very personal opinion, as most of this about democracy. Hakan At 12:13 PM 1/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Damian, I think you missed one major point about 'biofullers': Biofuel is much much cleaner than dino-fuel, so people prefer to use biodiesel where possible. Even though it may cost me more to run my van on Biodiesel, I will be smiling at the thought of 99% less pollutants. Oil is dirty. Diesel is dirty. That's why people won't use it unless they have to when there is an alternative. It's a simple equation, not really to do with the oil giants.. Kind Regards Nick Taylor, Technical Consultant. SMTechnology.com -Original Message- From: Damian J. Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 January 2003 17:13 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: There is a discussion group for the air car here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/ I've always thought it was an interesting concept and I try to keep my eye on it, though they have not impressed me as really making progress yet in business. Perhaps they will yet. Their business model seems to be to franchise out their idea in some way. I'm not a fan of that. The air car was mentioned a few years ago in relation to trying to help Mexico City cure some of its air pollution problems (i.e., zero non-air emissions at the vehicle). As to the derivations of petroleum, I guess there could be some debate, but anyway, I just tend to think of all bio and other fuels outside of ground-sourced as synthetic insofar as they're made by man taking action to do some chemistry. -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
not have absolutely pure hydrogen, the membranes become contaminated and are destroyed, so it is better to use hydrocarbon as a feed stock to a fuel cell that does not have a membrane...like the solid oxide Global Thermoelectric, or the molten carbonate type like Fuel Cell Energy (mentioned above for the neighborhood size power plants). - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH There is a discussion group for the air car here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/ I've always thought it was an interesting concept and I try to keep my eye on it, though they have not impressed me as really making progress yet in business. Perhaps they will yet. Their business model seems to be to franchise out their idea in some way. I'm not a fan of that. The air car was mentioned a few years ago in relation to trying to help Mexico City cure some of its air pollution problems (i.e., zero non-air emissions at the vehicle). As to the derivations of petroleum, I guess there could be some debate, but anyway, I just tend to think of all bio and other fuels outside of ground-sourced as synthetic insofar as they're made by man taking action to do some chemistry. On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:12 -0500 (EST), you wrote: Hmm. If you run a car on compressed air, does it not take energy to compress it? What do you run the compressor on? Gasoline? Also, if fossil fuel is from dinosaurs, is it not already bio fuel? There are those who say however that petroleum is primordial and that it was created with the Earth itself. Do we really know the origin of petroleum? Damian Anderson On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: $1.67 a GALLON??? You are having a laugh...no actually the British government is having a laugh, we pay that per litre ...and they still won't support biodiesel production. The idea of moving to Denmark seems more attractive every day!!! Sorry...never heard of the Air Car...though it sounds cool. You have to remember that in the UK we are severely behind the times, and I mean SEVERELY. Diesel IS cheaper in Europe, everywhere except the UK (about 50 cents/litre cheaper), and in France they use 100% biodiesel in 50% of their pumps, and the rest it's a 25%bio/75%dino mix. When you think of the amount of traditional English 'Fish Chips' shops in the UK, it would make so much sense to convert to bio. One of our largest chain of supermarkets is now using biodiesel to power its fleet of trucks, making biodiesel from the 100,000 litres/week of waste cooking oil they produce in their canteens...at least someone is doing something positive. Nick Tricia Liu wrote: Luckily we don't have to pay tax here in California for Bio-Diesel. Mixed fuel less than certain amount, no need to pay tax. I was told that the reason only 1% American drives Diesel car is because the Diesel is $1.67/gallon while gasoline is $1.60/gallon. And not available in all gas stations. But in Europe, Diesel is far more cheaper than Gasoline for about how much cheaper? 32% European drives Diesel and French is 68%? And I had heard about French invention www.theaircar.com Can you find this car running around in Europe yet? 68MPH, runs 168miles per charge. Cost $6700($6800 Euro), retails probably $10,000? Compressed air, recharge cost $3 and takes 3 minutes from a station. If you bought a compressor at home, charge takes 40 minutes and electricty or solar is required. We have LA auto show, Anahein Auto show. Every other European car manufacturers were here, but not the air car? They are not marketable yet or what? If you heard anything, please let me know. I'm dying to get an air car if I could. See the renewable air, compressed to sub -300 degree and stayed frozen liquid form. Then heat it up, release cool air for the passengers and the only emission will be still air. No pollution at all. Actually the released air is even cleaner than the smogged air we are breathing right now, no thanks to the gasoline cars. Killing us slowing and makes us worry half to death. The knowledge of the pollution, global warming is worst than hacking/coughing from the dirty air. California had won the title for being the poorest air quality city in USA for 3 years in a roll, nobody can help us. Unlike New York, everybody drives in California. Keep on breaking record then, what else can we do! I have to breath, dirty or not! SymmetryCo/Go-Electric-Store Tricia Liu 801, South Raymond Ave., $36 Palm-Mission Industrial Park Alhambra, CA.91803-1545 Phone: 1-626-642-1038 Fax: 1-626-628-3903 Cell: 1-626-536-4850 - Original Message - From: Nick
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
When UK and Sweden can join the Euro system, it pegs to the American Dollars. So we all have easier time for price reference! - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:32 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Even the gasoline price is cheaper here than in Europe, there are hidden costs! Must free the hands of the decision makers to commit more military involvement in Middle East. Besides the $32/barrel we are paying for the crude, according the national accounting office. Adding the cost of the military build up to protect the oil resources, the final price tag is $126/barrel. When you go to gas stations, you are paying more than the price. Some other tax money had slipped out of your pockets and go to the middle east. Besides the evil master Bin Laden said he vows get American Air bases out of Saudi Arabia. If we do not need that many oil, maybe we can finally give him what he wants. Corn oil or other types of renewable energy is like Green Gold at home, why bother to tap on somebody's pots of Black Gold. Removing Iraqi leader is not the only solution, we are paying the money for these unstable leaders to buy weapons of mass destruction. You fight him then pay for his oil, you give him the money to kick you back. Drain his financial resources, then maybe we do need those weapon inspection or waging a war. It's all our money that is buying gasoline that sustains this strong man in Iraq! We create our own monster! Brave men and women out there to protect oil resources, just because we need that many! If we could stop dependence on imported oil, those brave soldiers can come home to their loved ones. Blood will be on our hands, should find a way to switch to BioDiesel or other transportation! It's better than just yelling anti-war slogans, the government must maintain presence in Middle East. Unless we don't need that many oil, then we are the guilty ones! - Original Message - From: Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: There is a discussion group for the air car here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/ I've always thought it was an interesting concept and I try to keep my eye on it, though they have not impressed me as really making progress yet in business. Perhaps they will yet. Their business model seems to be to franchise out their idea in some way. I'm not a fan of that. The air car was mentioned a few years ago in relation to trying to help Mexico City cure some of its air pollution problems (i.e., zero non-air emissions at the vehicle). As to the derivations of petroleum, I guess there could be some debate, but anyway, I just tend to think of all bio and other fuels outside of ground-sourced as synthetic insofar as they're made by man taking action to do some chemistry. -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
It's maybe the Bush administration's revitalizing economy plan, by bring in cheaper crude oil. The oil companies can keep their profit margin or even higher. And the consumers will be happy to have cheaper gasoline, and can give some incentives and revitalize the economy! It seem to be a win-win solution. But there are hidden costs again, military expenses and somebody will have to die or get hurt! The military or civilian of both infight nations, probably more on Iraqi side! Bombing is planned and as other wars, warning Bagdad residents to leave will be issued! People still will die then their family or friends will be the next suicide bombers, the cycle will go on and on! But if the Iraqi really has weapons of mass destruction, military action is the short term solution. Stop driving gasoline cars is the long term solution. But there is no energy policy from the government? When you need government, they are not there! We need a market stardard for EV! Even in the very small EV world, Toyota/Honda/GM/Fords all have their own chargers. If we are going to build that electric station, guess how many different kinds of chargers will be needed for one station? 5 of them! Toyota/Honda/GM/Fords require 220V and Gem is 110V, then you can be qualified to open an electric station. They said they tested and decided to take Ford's charger as industrial standard, but that is so many steps behind the EV sales. Same as the BioDiesel industry, need standard and incentive to make conversion. There are famer states that need to sell their corns, anybody is helping them? Why only the oil companies get all the attention? Bio-Diesel or Ethanol will be a good replacement if the government is promoting them, creating more jobs for American famers and Diesel car sellers or relative business. When you need the government to make some plans to promote alternative energy, you find out they are too busy for war! - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 11:26 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Speaking petroleum prices some USA radio programs were mentioning the Iraq crude would cost about $1 USD per barrel to pump from the Iraq oil fields averaging 600 metres below the surface. If true that would make some US/UK petroleum companies happy (particularly Exxon, Chevron and BP, Shell) but it would make China, France and Russia even happier if they get the opportunity referring to the profit margin. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Hakan, If it is a government of the people, by the people, for the people, then it is a democracy. A society in which the people do not have the option to change their government if they don't like it is not a democracy. What democracies are there in the Middle East? I would count Israel and Turkey, but the others are for the most part desert satrapies. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to disagree with you. Ah, the joys of free speech! ;-) By the way, what did you think of George Bush's proposal yesterday to invest $1.2 billion towards research in developing a hydrogen powered car? That would not be biofuel, but it would be renewable and not make our societies dependent on corrupt dictatorships. I would like to see us develop nuclear fusion power, such as our sun runs on. It has run for billions of years on the nuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium. In that case, energy would become unbelievably cheap, and we could forget about this scarcity mentality that requires us to conserve energy. It is like conserving air! Free energy occurs in abundance in nature, and we need to learn to harness it, or imitate it. One question of economic significance would be how to generate hydrogen cheaply. Damian On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: Dear Damian, Another skewed view about dictatorships and democracy. Many of what we historically consider as the the worst examples of dictators, was duly elected by the people in a democratic system. On state or country level, some countries try to apply very global dictatorship towards the world community. That is the true dictatorship, not elected in any democratic way and maintained by military power. I would be very careful in waving the democracy and social justice flag if I was from US, especially at the current times. Nor does US have a very clean history to be proud of. It is naive to believe in any absolute justice, even if it is a noble goal and a dream worth while pursuing. To belive that US have achieved some sort of near perfect status, is very wrong and extremely dangerous. I would not place them very high on the list of good democracies (within top 30), but this is a very personal opinion, as most of this about democracy. Hakan At 12:13 PM 1/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Nick, Do you have scientific data to show that biofuel is cleaner than petroleum? Does it not depend on the engine? My car is certified as an Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle. I guess if you are running a 20 year old gas guzzler, it may run in a dirty way, but good modern engines are very clean. Damian On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: Damian, I think you missed one major point about 'biofullers': Biofuel is much much cleaner than dino-fuel, so people prefer to use biodiesel where possible. Even though it may cost me more to run my van on Biodiesel, I will be smiling at the thought of 99% less pollutants. Oil is dirty. Diesel is dirty. That's why people won't use it unless they have to when there is an alternative. It's a simple equation, not really to do with the oil giants.. Kind Regards Nick Taylor, Technical Consultant. SMTechnology.com -Original Message- From: Damian J. Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 January 2003 17:13 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
If it were sold as individual gallons in Costco gasoline wouldn't be $1.50 a gallon. Kirk -Original Message- From: Damian J. Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:13 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: Some people might argue that oil, coal and other petrochemical stocks are derived from ancient biological sources, and so they might be included, but, true BioFuels come from renewable sources, that do not add to the burden on the atmosphere. Some people ask, How can BioFuels be better for the atmosphere, if you still burn them? . It is simple, the carbon dioxide (CO2 ), that is made when biofuels are burnt, recycles, back in the the plant material which they came from. So, fossil fuel is a finite resource, not renewable, it pollutes, and it raises atmospheric CO2 levels - the CO2 in fossil fuels was sequestered from the atmosphere over a long period, hundreds of millions of years ago, and now we're releasing it all within a century, overloading the atmosphere. Biofuels are renewable, not pulluting or very much less polluting, and the CO2 released when burning them is part of the current biological cycle and is simply reabsorbed by growing plants. Then perhaps if you are concerned about CO2, the solution would be to plant trees, and set aside land for parks which can serve to absorb CO2 and produce oxygen. Europe long ago cut down much of its forests for fuel and building houses, furniture and ships. I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. This is pretty thorough-going nonsense, see my reply to your other poist. There is no need to be insulting. What is nonsense? Biofuel does not seem to be economically a good idea, and if it were not for taxes, it be even a worse idea. Convince me. Is it better for the environment, and if so, how? It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. There's also a lot in the archives about this. You take a peculiarly American view that somehow leaves out of the whole equation the crucial effect US interest and interference, both official and corporate, have had on that whole region, and continues to have. Time and again the US has suppressed democratic initiatives there for the sake of Big Oil. Now when it starts to backfire on you you simply want to walk away from it all. Typical. Please check the archives before dragging up all the old arguments again that have already been dealt with. And please remember that there are list members here from all over the world, including the Arab countries, not just Americans - not even a majority of Americans. Keith Addison Yes, I take an American view. I am a naturalized American citizen, having come here by choice. It is a great place to live. It is not only the US which is dependent on oil. The whole modern world has run on oil since the introduction of the internal combustion engine, and subsequently, oil was used for air and sea travel and in the development of petrochecmicals. So it is not only an American concern, it is the concern of the whole modern world. Even if we did not run trains, planes and automobiles on oil, its use would not go away. I am sure that if there are Arabs who want to make their point, they can speak for themselves. -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
for automobiles in my view is the following company, which produced already from General Motors. http://www.globalte.com The solid oxide is more efficient than the membrane type, and would require no reformation of hydrocarbon fuels into pure hydrogen, as Ballard is now doing for Ford, Chrysler. If you do not have absolutely pure hydrogen, the membranes become contaminated and are destroyed, so it is better to use hydrocarbon as a feed stock to a fuel cell that does not have a membrane...like the solid oxide Global Thermoelectric, or the molten carbonate type like Fuel Cell Energy (mentioned above for the neighborhood size power plants). - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:06 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH There is a discussion group for the air car here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/ I've always thought it was an interesting concept and I try to keep my eye on it, though they have not impressed me as really making progress yet in business. Perhaps they will yet. Their business model seems to be to franchise out their idea in some way. I'm not a fan of that. The air car was mentioned a few years ago in relation to trying to help Mexico City cure some of its air pollution problems (i.e., zero non-air emissions at the vehicle). As to the derivations of petroleum, I guess there could be some debate, but anyway, I just tend to think of all bio and other fuels outside of ground-sourced as synthetic insofar as they're made by man taking action to do some chemistry. On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:12 -0500 (EST), you wrote: Hmm. If you run a car on compressed air, does it not take energy to compress it? What do you run the compressor on? Gasoline? Also, if fossil fuel is from dinosaurs, is it not already bio fuel? There are those who say however that petroleum is primordial and that it was created with the Earth itself. Do we really know the origin of petroleum? Damian Anderson On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: $1.67 a GALLON??? You are having a laugh...no actually the British government is having a laugh, we pay that per litre ...and they still won't support biodiesel production. The idea of moving to Denmark seems more attractive every day!!! Sorry...never heard of the Air Car...though it sounds cool. You have to remember that in the UK we are severely behind the times, and I mean SEVERELY. Diesel IS cheaper in Europe, everywhere except the UK (about 50 cents/litre cheaper), and in France they use 100% biodiesel in 50% of their pumps, and the rest it's a 25%bio/75%dino mix. When you think of the amount of traditional English 'Fish Chips' shops in the UK, it would make so much sense to convert to bio. One of our largest chain of supermarkets is now using biodiesel to power its fleet of trucks, making biodiesel from the 100,000 litres/week of waste cooking oil they produce in their canteens...at least someone is doing something positive. Nick Tricia Liu wrote: Luckily we don't have to pay tax here in California for Bio-Diesel. Mixed fuel less than certain amount, no need to pay tax. I was told that the reason only 1% American drives Diesel car is because the Diesel is $1.67/gallon while gasoline is $1.60/gallon. And not available in all gas stations. But in Europe, Diesel is far more cheaper than Gasoline for about how much cheaper? 32% European drives Diesel and French is 68%? And I had heard about French invention www.theaircar.com Can you find this car running around in Europe yet? 68MPH, runs 168miles per charge. Cost $6700($6800 Euro), retails probably $10,000? Compressed air, recharge cost $3 and takes 3 minutes from a station. If you bought a compressor at home, charge takes 40 minutes and electricty or solar is required. We have LA auto show, Anahein Auto show. Every other European car manufacturers were here, but not the air car? They are not marketable yet or what? If you heard anything, please let me know. I'm dying to get an air car if I could. See the renewable air, compressed to sub -300 degree and stayed frozen liquid form. Then heat it up, release cool air for the passengers and the only emission will be still air. No pollution at all. Actually the released air is even cleaner than the smogged air we are breathing right now, no thanks to the gasoline cars. Killing us slowing and makes us worry half to death. The knowledge of the pollution, global warming is worst than hacking/coughing from the dirty air. California had won the title for being the poorest air quality city in USA for 3 years in a roll, nobody can help us. Unlike New York, everybody drives in California. Keep on breaking record then, what else
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
I think that we have a troll in here .. it is starting to sound like the John Grant thread on energy renewables. Keith, any comments On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Damian J. Anderson wrote: Nick, Do you have scientific data to show that biofuel is cleaner than petroleum? Does it not depend on the engine? My car is certified as an Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle. I guess if you are running a 20 year old gas guzzler, it may run in a dirty way, but good modern engines are very clean. Damian On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: Damian, I think you missed one major point about 'biofullers': Biofuel is much much cleaner than dino-fuel, so people prefer to use biodiesel where possible. Even though it may cost me more to run my van on Biodiesel, I will be smiling at the thought of 99% less pollutants. Oil is dirty. Diesel is dirty. That's why people won't use it unless they have to when there is an alternative. It's a simple equation, not really to do with the oil giants.. Kind Regards Nick Taylor, Technical Consultant. SMTechnology.com -Original Message- From: Damian J. Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 January 2003 17:13 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Hydrrogen Cars (was: Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH)
Damian J. Anderson wrote: snip By the way, what did you think of George Bush's proposal yesterday to invest $1.2 billion towards research in developing a hydrogen powered car? That would not be biofuel, but it would be renewable and not make our societies dependent on corrupt dictatorships. I would like to see us develop nuclear fusion power, such as our sun runs on. It has run for billions of years on the nuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium. In that case, energy would become unbelievably cheap, and we could forget about this scarcity mentality that requires us to conserve energy. It is like conserving air! Free energy occurs in abundance in nature, and we need to learn to harness it, or imitate it. I presume you are referring to this portion of the SOTU address last night: Tonight I'm proposing $1.2 billion in research funding so that America can lead the world in developing clean, hydrogen-powered automobiles. A single chemical reaction between hydrogen and oxygen generates energy, which can be used to power a car -- producing only water, not exhaust fumes. With a new national commitment, our scientists and engineers will overcome obstacles to taking these cars from laboratory to showroom, so that the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by hydrogen, and pollution-free. Join me in this important innovation to make our air significantly cleaner, and our country much less dependent on foreign sources of energy. Presumably he is referring to fuel cells, and not combustion. So we are actually talking about fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs). As you stated, hydrogen is not a biofuel, nor is it likely to be produced from biofuels in any significant quantity. Today, most is derived from petroleum production, and the next most likely major source is electrolysis (requiring electricity). I'll be happy to discuss fuel cells, electric vehicles and electrical generation with you off-line or on another list (EVs, hydrogen fuel, fuel cells), but I don't think this is the appropriate place. I can also e-mail you my recent article on hydrogen fuel cells in the transportation sector (due for publication next month). Darryl McMahon One question of economic significance would be how to generate hydrogen cheaply. Damian On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: Dear Damian, Another skewed view about dictatorships and democracy. Many of what we historically consider as the the worst examples of dictators, was duly elected by the people in a democratic system. On state or country level, some countries try to apply very global dictatorship towards the world community. That is the true dictatorship, not elected in any democratic way and maintained by military power. I would be very careful in waving the democracy and social justice flag if I was from US, especially at the current times. Nor does US have a very clean history to be proud of. It is naive to believe in any absolute justice, even if it is a noble goal and a dream worth while pursuing. To belive that US have achieved some sort of near perfect status, is very wrong and extremely dangerous. I would not place them very high on the list of good democracies (within top 30), but this is a very personal opinion, as most of this about democracy. Hakan At 12:13 PM 1/28/2003 -0500, you wrote: There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Hydrrogen Cars (was: Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH)
I think Keith once mentioned it being OK to discussed EV's here. I-THINK (LOL). Keith?? Curtis P.S. Keep me informed too. I'm a EV and Hydrogen ... as well as BioDiesel Enthusiast. Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'll be happy to discuss fuel cells, electric vehicles and electrical generation with you off-line or on another list (EVs, hydrogen fuel, fuel cells), but I don't think this is the appropriate place Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fw: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Now that you mention it, it does sound like it. Greg H. - Original Message - From: James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 10:30 Subject: RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I think that we have a troll in here .. it is starting to sound like the John Grant thread on energy renewables. Keith, any comments On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Damian J. Anderson wrote: Nick, Do you have scientific data to show that biofuel is cleaner than petroleum? Does it not depend on the engine? My car is certified as an Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle. I guess if you are running a 20 year old gas guzzler, it may run in a dirty way, but good modern engines are very clean. Damian On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: Damian, I think you missed one major point about 'biofullers': Biofuel is much much cleaner than dino-fuel, so people prefer to use biodiesel where possible. Even though it may cost me more to run my van on Biodiesel, I will be smiling at the thought of 99% less pollutants. Oil is dirty. Diesel is dirty. That's why people won't use it unless they have to when there is an alternative. It's a simple equation, not really to do with the oil giants.. Kind Regards Nick Taylor, Technical Consultant. SMTechnology.com -Original Message- From: Damian J. Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 January 2003 17:13 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH I was in Costco over the weekend and looked at the price of corn oil. It was about $3.20 a gallon. If nature, or nature's God, has provided us with a vast supply of naturally occurring petroleum, it seems like it does not make economic sense to make bio fuels, even if you had no tax at all. Even with the tax, gasoline is only $1.50 a gallon, and that is in the middle of a crisis of the world oil supply because of the prospect of another Gulf War and also the political crisis in Venezuela. So, if there were no tax on gasoline, or a lot less, it would be even more favorable than biofuels. It does not seem to make sense to do the chemistry yourself when it has already been done for you, and there are vast untapped resources of it sitting in the ground. If we ever run out of petroleum, we can always still grow corn and turn it into corn oil or alcohol to burn. But for now, both are economically a bad idea. It is analagous to turning lead into gold. It can be done today with our knowledge of nuclear physics, but the cost of doing so is more than the market price of gold. Why make gold when there is an abundant supply sitting in the ground just waiting to be mined? There is virtue in not being dependant on Middle Eastern oil, mostly because it is foolish to tie our national economy, and hence its security, to a region of the world devoid of democracy and social justice, where most of the countries are backward dictatorships. Even our friends the Saudis, are a backward corrupt dictatorship. Damian Anderson -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.unification.net Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH - AirCar
You need to take into account the efficiency losses: Hydro/Nuclear/solar/wind/etc Electric generator - transmission lines - electric motor - mechanical air compressor - pipes - air motor - mechanical transmission - rubber wheels I don't know how efficient this would be, but I'm guessing below 4% (if my guess makes a difference) It could be made better if you used an internal combustion generator, but you still have a lot of conversions: Crops - oil/alcohol - IC engine - mechanical air compressor ... etc Crops would include energy used to plant and maintain the crop as well. I guess the above process would be about the same with a hydrocarbon fuel. However if you're going to use an IC engine anyway, what's wrong with an IC/electric hybrid? --- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] nnytech.net -Original Message- From: Crabb, David [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 4:12 PM To: 'biofuel@yahoogroups.com' Subject: RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH - AirCar An air compressor can run on electricity. Electricity can be generated from Solar, Wind, or Hydro.. fairly cleanly. This would allow someone to not *have* to use internal combustion to commute..etc It would also allow somone to not have to worry about batteries..etc. Even if one uses fuel consumed at a powerplant.., it is still better to run off of excess capacity at night. Less waste that way. If it can be charged overnight, it would allow a smaller compressor to run overnight. smaller = running at 100% vs the running at 15% power for cars..etc. Also.. the removal of even needing a freon system is a benefit. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Democracy was [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Damian J. Anderson wrote: By the way, what did you think of George Bush's proposal yesterday to invest $1.2 billion towards research in developing a hydrogen powered car? It's a distraction from the real issues of energy conservation and investment in workable technology. I'm a hydrogen enthusiast and have been for many years, but I don't see the need for such a huge investment to develop a hydrogen powered car. I can do that myself for less than $10 000 in building an engine, installing the tanks and fuel regulation equipment, AND buying a natural gas compressor to safely fill the tanks. Gaseous fuels are not particularly difficult to burn. The bigger question is this: From whence will the hydrogen come? Look who the Administration is funding in their budget proposal and you'll find out where THEY think the hydrogen will come from! That would not be biofuel, but it would be renewable and not make our societies dependent on corrupt dictatorships. At best, it will come from reformed methane--a fossil fuel. Over on the sci.energy.hydrogen list right now, a business man is promoting the idea of using concentrated solar derived hydrogen to liquefy coal and make synfuels. This is probably a good interim solution. There's not a lot of info on the website, but he's posted a great deal on the news group in the last month: http://www.mokindustries.com/pages/762107/index.htm I would like to see us develop nuclear fusion power, such as our sun runs on. It has run for billions of years on the nuclear fusion of hydrogen into helium. In that case, energy would become unbelievably cheap, and we could forget about this scarcity mentality that requires us to conserve energy. It is like conserving air! Free energy occurs in abundance in nature, and we need to learn to harness it, or imitate it. For God so loved the world that he put the nearest fusion reactor 250 000 000 km away! Why bother with fusion when we already HAVE a fusion power plant conveniently located in the sky? One question of economic significance would be how to generate hydrogen cheaply. That is THE CRITICAL question! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
There's a poster in the evworld.com group who has been championing the idea that alternative fuel efforts will continue to be stifled partly by governments until we address governmental lost-revenue issues as we suggest that we use fuels they presently have trouble taxing. I'm forwarding your comments and your news link to him and others. Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
$1.67 a GALLON??? You are having a laugh...no actually the British government is having a laugh, we pay that per litre ...and they still won't support biodiesel production. The idea of moving to Denmark seems more attractive every day!!! Sorry...never heard of the Air Car...though it sounds cool. You have to remember that in the UK we are severely behind the times, and I mean SEVERELY. Diesel IS cheaper in Europe, everywhere except the UK (about 50 cents/litre cheaper), and in France they use 100% biodiesel in 50% of their pumps, and the rest it's a 25%bio/75%dino mix. When you think of the amount of traditional English 'Fish Chips' shops in the UK, it would make so much sense to convert to bio. One of our largest chain of supermarkets is now using biodiesel to power its fleet of trucks, making biodiesel from the 100,000 litres/week of waste cooking oil they produce in their canteens...at least someone is doing something positive. Nick Tricia Liu wrote: Luckily we don't have to pay tax here in California for Bio-Diesel. Mixed fuel less than certain amount, no need to pay tax. I was told that the reason only 1% American drives Diesel car is because the Diesel is $1.67/gallon while gasoline is $1.60/gallon. And not available in all gas stations. But in Europe, Diesel is far more cheaper than Gasoline for about how much cheaper? 32% European drives Diesel and French is 68%? And I had heard about French invention www.theaircar.com Can you find this car running around in Europe yet? 68MPH, runs 168miles per charge. Cost $6700($6800 Euro), retails probably $10,000? Compressed air, recharge cost $3 and takes 3 minutes from a station. If you bought a compressor at home, charge takes 40 minutes and electricty or solar is required. We have LA auto show, Anahein Auto show. Every other European car manufacturers were here, but not the air car? They are not marketable yet or what? If you heard anything, please let me know. I'm dying to get an air car if I could. See the renewable air, compressed to sub -300 degree and stayed frozen liquid form. Then heat it up, release cool air for the passengers and the only emission will be still air. No pollution at all. Actually the released air is even cleaner than the smogged air we are breathing right now, no thanks to the gasoline cars. Killing us slowing and makes us worry half to death. The knowledge of the pollution, global warming is worst than hacking/coughing from the dirty air. California had won the title for being the poorest air quality city in USA for 3 years in a roll, nobody can help us. Unlike New York, everybody drives in California. Keep on breaking record then, what else can we do! I have to breath, dirty or not! SymmetryCo/Go-Electric-Store Tricia Liu 801, South Raymond Ave., $36 Palm-Mission Industrial Park Alhambra, CA.91803-1545 Phone: 1-626-642-1038 Fax: 1-626-628-3903 Cell: 1-626-536-4850 - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Strange ... aren't these the same guys who are one of the few that support GWB in going into a war against Iraq?? Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
There's a poster in the evworld.com group who has been championing the idea that alternative fuel efforts will continue to be stifled partly by governments until we address governmental lost-revenue issues as we suggest that we use fuels they presently have trouble taxing. I'm forwarding your comments and your news link to him and others. Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
that's the other problem..the problems that governments create. they create more issues than they resolve. don't you get ME started! I don't like ANY of them! Never trust a 'Leader' is one of my favorite sayings. David Weddle - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:49 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH There's a poster in the evworld.com group who has been championing the idea that alternative fuel efforts will continue to be stifled partly by governments until we address governmental lost-revenue issues as we suggest that we use fuels they presently have trouble taxing. I'm forwarding your comments and your news link to him and others. Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
There is a discussion group for the air car here: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/ I've always thought it was an interesting concept and I try to keep my eye on it, though they have not impressed me as really making progress yet in business. Perhaps they will yet. Their business model seems to be to franchise out their idea in some way. I'm not a fan of that. The air car was mentioned a few years ago in relation to trying to help Mexico City cure some of its air pollution problems (i.e., zero non-air emissions at the vehicle). As to the derivations of petroleum, I guess there could be some debate, but anyway, I just tend to think of all bio and other fuels outside of ground-sourced as synthetic insofar as they're made by man taking action to do some chemistry. On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 11:20:12 -0500 (EST), you wrote: Hmm. If you run a car on compressed air, does it not take energy to compress it? What do you run the compressor on? Gasoline? Also, if fossil fuel is from dinosaurs, is it not already bio fuel? There are those who say however that petroleum is primordial and that it was created with the Earth itself. Do we really know the origin of petroleum? Damian Anderson On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) wrote: $1.67 a GALLON??? You are having a laugh...no actually the British government is having a laugh, we pay that per litre ...and they still won't support biodiesel production. The idea of moving to Denmark seems more attractive every day!!! Sorry...never heard of the Air Car...though it sounds cool. You have to remember that in the UK we are severely behind the times, and I mean SEVERELY. Diesel IS cheaper in Europe, everywhere except the UK (about 50 cents/litre cheaper), and in France they use 100% biodiesel in 50% of their pumps, and the rest it's a 25%bio/75%dino mix. When you think of the amount of traditional English 'Fish Chips' shops in the UK, it would make so much sense to convert to bio. One of our largest chain of supermarkets is now using biodiesel to power its fleet of trucks, making biodiesel from the 100,000 litres/week of waste cooking oil they produce in their canteens...at least someone is doing something positive. Nick Tricia Liu wrote: Luckily we don't have to pay tax here in California for Bio-Diesel. Mixed fuel less than certain amount, no need to pay tax. I was told that the reason only 1% American drives Diesel car is because the Diesel is $1.67/gallon while gasoline is $1.60/gallon. And not available in all gas stations. But in Europe, Diesel is far more cheaper than Gasoline for about how much cheaper? 32% European drives Diesel and French is 68%? And I had heard about French invention www.theaircar.com Can you find this car running around in Europe yet? 68MPH, runs 168miles per charge. Cost $6700($6800 Euro), retails probably $10,000? Compressed air, recharge cost $3 and takes 3 minutes from a station. If you bought a compressor at home, charge takes 40 minutes and electricty or solar is required. We have LA auto show, Anahein Auto show. Every other European car manufacturers were here, but not the air car? They are not marketable yet or what? If you heard anything, please let me know. I'm dying to get an air car if I could. See the renewable air, compressed to sub -300 degree and stayed frozen liquid form. Then heat it up, release cool air for the passengers and the only emission will be still air. No pollution at all. Actually the released air is even cleaner than the smogged air we are breathing right now, no thanks to the gasoline cars. Killing us slowing and makes us worry half to death. The knowledge of the pollution, global warming is worst than hacking/coughing from the dirty air. California had won the title for being the poorest air quality city in USA for 3 years in a roll, nobody can help us. Unlike New York, everybody drives in California. Keep on breaking record then, what else can we do! I have to breath, dirty or not! SymmetryCo/Go-Electric-Store Tricia Liu 801, South Raymond Ave., $36 Palm-Mission Industrial Park Alhambra, CA.91803-1545 Phone: 1-626-642-1038 Fax: 1-626-628-3903 Cell: 1-626-536-4850 - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
A $1.30/gal for dino-diesel? I wish it was that cheap here. Here in Colorado Springs, Colorado, we are at a $1.45+ and the local grease traps say there in some kind of ordinance that says they can't give the used grease/oil away to people, cause it's a health hazard. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 02:31 Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Isn't he talking about $1.30 A LITER? Greg, you are talking about a gallon. --- Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A $1.30/gal for dino-diesel? I wish it was that cheap here. Here in Colorado Springs, Colorado, we are at a $1.45+ and the local grease traps say there in some kind of ordinance that says they can't give the used grease/oil away to people, cause it's a health hazard. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 02:31 Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Ok,,,So I just got up and forgot to put on my glasses. ( turns beet red ) I think I'll drink my Pepsi now. I'd swear that I read gallon some were. Greg H. - Original Message - From: studio53 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 10:39 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Isn't he talking about $1.30 A LITER? Greg, you are talking about a gallon. -- - Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A $1.30/gal for dino-diesel? I wish it was that cheap here. Here in Colorado Springs, Colorado, we are at a $1.45+ and the local grease traps say there in some kind of ordinance that says they can't give the used grease/oil away to people, cause it's a health hazard. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 02:31 Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Keep in mind that the British and American gallon are different. A British gallon is 153.72159 fluid ounces (4.54609 liters), an American gallon is 128 fluid ounces (3.7854118 liters). At that rate, your duty is $1.84 per US gallon of diesel, which is more than our total cost. Taxed to death is right. No wonder people leave Europe for the lower tax climes of the USA. Damian On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ken Basterfield wrote: A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH AMEN!
Few people realize..(in the USA) how much tax is paid on fuel.. it is 65cents a gallon in some states...and varies from state to state. Few people outside the USA realize how laws and taxes vary from state to state, county to county, and city to city. What a MACHINE the goverment is.. and I think, in general, that it is a hindrance to human growth and survival. The government is often the tool of the select few. That's how I feel toward my government.. something to be feared. David - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
There is road fuel duty to pay on methanol, unless you can convince them otherwise, since it is used in racing engines and the Excise man wants his share. Ken - Original Message - From: Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 06:32, you wrote: A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken Cor, that Meth is pricey! (We pay about $A1.10/litre in Aus.) You are using fuel grade Meth? Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 06:32, you wrote: A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken Cor, that Meth is pricey! (We pay about $A1.10/litre in Aus.) You are using fuel grade Meth? Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
3.785 L == 1 Gallon $4.9205 per Gallon - that would well cause a riot in the US. On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, studio53 wrote: Isn't he talking about $1.30 A LITER? Greg, you are talking about a gallon. --- Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A $1.30/gal for dino-diesel? I wish it was that cheap here. Here in Colorado Springs, Colorado, we are at a $1.45+ and the local grease traps say there in some kind of ordinance that says they can't give the used grease/oil away to people, cause it's a health hazard. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 02:31 Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
They would be drilling in ANWAR for sure at that point. Greg H. - Original Message - From: James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 14:09 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH 3.785 L == 1 Gallon $4.9205 per Gallon - that would well cause a riot in the US. On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, studio53 wrote: Isn't he talking about $1.30 A LITER? Greg, you are talking about a gallon. -- - Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 12:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A $1.30/gal for dino-diesel? I wish it was that cheap here. Here in Colorado Springs, Colorado, we are at a $1.45+ and the local grease traps say there in some kind of ordinance that says they can't give the used grease/oil away to people, cause it's a health hazard. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 02:31 Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH AMEN!
A responsible governmnet need not be feared. It's rather doubtful that our highways, airways, sewers, water and electric and perhaps thousands of other systems - all the things that westerners take so much for granted - would be anywhere close to their present state were it not for centralized guvmint efforts. But then again, every coin has three sides. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: ~David~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH AMEN! Few people realize..(in the USA) how much tax is paid on fuel.. it is 65cents a gallon in some states...and varies from state to state. Few people outside the USA realize how laws and taxes vary from state to state, county to county, and city to city. What a MACHINE the goverment is.. and I think, in general, that it is a hindrance to human growth and survival. The government is often the tool of the select few. That's how I feel toward my government.. something to be feared. David - Original Message - From: Ken Basterfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH
Keep in mind that the British and American gallon are different. A British gallon is 153.72159 fluid ounces (4.54609 liters), an American gallon is 128 fluid ounces (3.7854118 liters). At that rate, your duty is $1.84 per US gallon of diesel, which is more than our total cost. Taxed to death is right. No wonder people leave Europe for the lower tax climes of the USA. Damian Don't kid yourself. In the US the price at the pump might be lower, but you're paying a lot more than that in various subsidies and so on, largely hidden. Subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, in the US alone, are estimated to be $20 billion a year -- Natural Capitalism, Hawken, et al. (citing Norman Myers and Jennifer Kent in Perverse Subsidies) When externalities such as environmental and health costs, the loss of domestic jobs and basic industries, the trade deficit, commitments of military resources to ensure the free flow of oil from the Middle East, and threats to our energy and national security are included, the true cost of imports exceeds $100 a barrel, according to the General Accounting Office. -- US Air Force General G. Lee Butler (retired), Chief Air Planner for Operation Desert Storm, Wall Street Journal, December 5, 1997 $100.00 per barrel of oil is $2.40 per gallon prior to cracking, transport to end use, state and federal taxes, and profit. The national security cost of oil is in the area of $57 billion a year, or approximately $9.19 per barrel of oil used in the US. -- The National Security Costs of Petroleum, Energetics and NEOS corporation, 1994. http://www.ethanol-gec.org/natsec.pdf Keith On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Ken Basterfield wrote: A minor point, the Uk duty on biodiesel is 28.6 pence ( rebated by 20 pence of the standard dino d duty rate of 48.6 pence per litre) I make it that 28.6 pence is about 46 cents unless the dollar / pound exchange rate has suddenly gone mad. Ellis and Everard can supply methanol at £205.00 per 45 gallon barrel Ken - Original Message - From: Nick Taylor (SMTechnology.com) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 9:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Taxed To DEATH Hi Guys, Just thought I would let you know what the British government is doing to support Biodieselabsolutely nothing!! Currently here, we are paying silly amounts for our fuel, on average $1.30 (USD) for a litre of dino-diesel and $1.27 for unleaded. Therefore making your own fuel is an attractive ideabut there is one problem...as its cheaper to make, the government does not get its slice of the tax (to pay for their gas guzzling auto's!)..therefore they don't encourage anyone to mass produce. As an example, my company has applied for a licence to make its own biodiesel for our 4 VW Caddy vans. Not a problem we were told by Customs and Exciseas long as you pay the government $0.76 in tax per litre used alone!. Once you add that to the cost of small scale production, its going to cost us more than to use dino-diesel.we are forced to use dino-diesel, and they still get their money. I'm embarrassed that the UK is so far behind everyone else in Europe...after spending 4 months in Sweden last year, I realised that the UK is a dinosaur itself, stuck in the industrial revolution of 100 years ago (we are still struggling with broadband internet outside of the big cities!!!). ..But don't worry folks...I'm going to be running my van on biodiesel once I've got the hang of making it!! Stuff the government! If anyone is interested, here's what's in the news in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/england/1750734.stm One last thing...is there anyone in this group from the South West of England that can recommend a good methanol supplier??? Nick -- Damian J. Anderson [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.unification.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
