RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
Hello Bryan >Keith, > >I sincerely appreciate this lively philosophical debate. When I have >attempted in the past to paraphrase and restate what I believe to be >your position, you accused me of "putting words in your mouth." You did though - it essentially changed what I said. I don't see why you needed to restate it anyway, it was clear enough. (And I don't like being told I'm "whining".) >Perhaps >it is due to the fact that I am a product of the US public education >system, or just my own innate inability to think critically, but I am >having difficulty understanding what exactly you believe. As little as possible. >As you have probably gathered, I am very suspicious of government and >the media it controls, Disagree - control of the US mainstream media is far more corporate than government, though there's a grey area of varying extent, as we've seen recently. >and expect everyone else to be equally cynical >concerning power. I see no solution to the current system but it's >destruction and replacement by another. Barring this revolution, the >only things that individuals can do against the current power structure >is to try and gain a modicum of independence by existing as much as >possible outside the political/economic/media sphere (i.e. living >simply, growing food, making fuel, bartering, etc.). Furthermore, while >we can't really improve the system, we can slow the erosion of our >economic and political freedom by letting those in power know that we >are watching them. The only way to do this is by educating ourselves >and spreading the word about what is happening. Yes, I agree with that, broadly, more or less. I'm usually sceptical of efforts to reform the system from within, or perhaps of the people claiming to do so, and I don't believe that true alternatives mean going back to square one but rather going forward, or at least they can do (as with localized biofuels production and decentralization of energy supplies for example). Also everything about "the system" isn't necessarily anathema, there's quite a lot that can be worked with, can be used, can be improved. A great deal in fact. >As someone who has put small-scale sustainability into practice, it >seems (at least superficially) that you hold some of the same values as >I. Yes, I think so. But sustainability and so on or whatever is a project with me. I'm a journalist: though they might not look like it these are all journalism projects for me, including this list, including Journey to Forever. At its foundation it's Fourth Estate stuff, against injustice and exploitation. This is what my friend Cecil Rajendra said: "It becomes no longer a matter of choice, but the moral obligation and bounden duty of every responsible writer to bear witness to the times he lives in and to put his life and his work at the service of humanity." http://journeytoforever.org/keith_cecil.html Cecil Rajendra "What's that got to do with biofuels?" LOL! >However, it is apparent from your rebuttals that you disagree with >me. Will you graciously indulge me by (re)stating exactly what you >perceive the problem to be and what you feel we can do to fix it? Your brush is getting a bit broad. My original response was to David Crabb: >>... but right now, supposedly it is a full time job doing politics, so the >>average person wouldn't have time >>to research all the issues in order to make an informed decision. > >... so instead you prefer to cede your responsibilities to others, >who somehow out of the sheer goodness of their hearts do "have the >time" that you don't have. How trusting to believe that they'll take >them on for you and of course continue to do full honour to you and >your concerns and needs. > >What you can then expect to happen is that your rights will be >purloined and abused, as indeed they have been and continue to be. > >Three things you'll have to put right - or rather repossess - before >democracy becomes a real option in the US again: the education >system, the media, and the price-tag on a candidate's campaign. Also >your citizenship - no citizenship for corporations! (Study the >history of corporations.) While other interests - corporate mainly - >control these institutions you'll be much closer to Curtis's dreams >of slavery than to any sort of citizenship, no matter how >comfortably buffered with consumer durables your slavery might be. That's a bit more specific. I think what it boils down to, Bryan, is that you perhaps think small is powerless, you do believe most people are apathetic, lazy, helpless. I don't agree with that at all. You seem to think that it's not worthwhile opposing corporate power - a wolf is a wolf, it can be expected to behave like one. I've noted many instances of apparently powerless individuals, small groups, grass-roots efforts with zilch resources bringing corporations to a grinding halt. You might not see that because you might doubt that such "ordina
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
Dear Brah, >I see no solution to the current system but it's > destruction and replacement by another. I sincerely hope we don't have to return to square one after all the work to get this far. Granted there are lots of problems, but can't you find anything worth building on? If we keep starting over, we aren't going to get anywhere. Especially if we keep repeating the mistakes. Please, let us work on what we've got and try and change it towards something better. I honestly don't believe it is impossible to improve our present world. It is one small step at a time, and one gets there. Many small steps. Please don't get dismayed by the size of the problem. Bring your focus in closer and keep biting and chewing. Just look at this forum, these discussions, and grassroots efforts on biofuels, as an example. The big boys think they have the world sewn up with big oil. Meanwhile, there is a ground swell of biofuel coming that is going to wash big oil away. Yes, the media could do better. And, yes, there is corruption in the States and elsewhere. But, I also think we have come a long way since my childhood when Kennedy and Johnson and Nixon and so forth got away with what they did. Relatively speaking they have to walk on egg shells these days or some journalist is going to call them out. I think the media tends to slant things, but I don't think it is rotten to the core. They are still playing a valuable and essential role at keeping the politicians honest (I hope). Derek Hargis > Keith, > > I sincerely appreciate this lively philosophical debate. When I have > attempted in the past to paraphrase and restate what I believe to be > your position, you accused me of "putting words in your mouth." Perhaps > it is due to the fact that I am a product of the US public education > system, or just my own innate inability to think critically, but I am > having difficulty understanding what exactly you believe. > > > > As you have probably gathered, I am very suspicious of government and > the media it controls, and expect everyone else to be equally cynical > concerning power. I see no solution to the current system but it's > destruction and replacement by another. Barring this revolution, the > only things that individuals can do against the current power structure > is to try and gain a modicum of independence by existing as much as > possible outside the political/economic/media sphere (i.e. living > simply, growing food, making fuel, bartering, etc.). Furthermore, while > we can't really improve the system, we can slow the erosion of our > economic and political freedom by letting those in power know that we > are watching them. The only way to do this is by educating ourselves > and spreading the word about what is happening. > > > > As someone who has put small-scale sustainability into practice, it > seems (at least superficially) that you hold some of the same values as > I. However, it is apparent from your rebuttals that you disagree with > me. Will you graciously indulge me by (re)stating exactly what you > perceive the problem to be and what you feel we can do to fix it? > > > > Best Regards, > > > > -BRAH Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
Keith, I sincerely appreciate this lively philosophical debate. When I have attempted in the past to paraphrase and restate what I believe to be your position, you accused me of "putting words in your mouth." Perhaps it is due to the fact that I am a product of the US public education system, or just my own innate inability to think critically, but I am having difficulty understanding what exactly you believe. As you have probably gathered, I am very suspicious of government and the media it controls, and expect everyone else to be equally cynical concerning power. I see no solution to the current system but it's destruction and replacement by another. Barring this revolution, the only things that individuals can do against the current power structure is to try and gain a modicum of independence by existing as much as possible outside the political/economic/media sphere (i.e. living simply, growing food, making fuel, bartering, etc.). Furthermore, while we can't really improve the system, we can slow the erosion of our economic and political freedom by letting those in power know that we are watching them. The only way to do this is by educating ourselves and spreading the word about what is happening. As someone who has put small-scale sustainability into practice, it seems (at least superficially) that you hold some of the same values as I. However, it is apparent from your rebuttals that you disagree with me. Will you graciously indulge me by (re)stating exactly what you perceive the problem to be and what you feel we can do to fix it? Best Regards, -BRAH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
If you limit the amount of >money a candidate can spend on his campaign, or limit advertising, >you start down the slippery slope of limiting first amendment >rights. That's a narrow view of what's a very big and wide-ranging debate in the US right now, and in the world at large. James, Hakan, Derek have all said interesting things about this recently. But maybe you should discuss it with Granny D? >Really the only thing that we can do is participate, be diligent, >and actively question everything that we see or hear. You whine >about a “level playing field” ROTF LOL!!! I’ve >got some bad news for you bucko, the world isn’t fair, and >never will be. All you will ever be able to do is mitigate that >unfairness. As I said, I don't think you know very much about me. Best Keith > > > >-BRAH > > > > > >-Original Message- >From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 11:08 AM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] > > > > >So what you're saying > >What I'm saying is what I said, what you're saying is another matter >and your business, not mine. > > >is that people refuse to challenge or investigate > >allegations made in the media, and/or disbelieve them when shown proof > >is a direct result of the corporate/government propaganda machine; and > >that these people are victims because they have been manipulated into > >this state of denial. > > > > > > > >How does this theory explain why people when faced with overwhelming, > >undeniable proof of government wrongdoing (Watergate, Iran-Contra, > >Whitewater, etc...) simply shrug their shoulders, hop into their SUV's, > >and head down to a chain restaurant for a few beers? > > > > > > > >Your analogy about a murderer and his victim that almost fits. While > >murderers are ultimately culpable for their actions, we must still take > >prudent action to protect ourselves from them. If I engage in > >activities that put me at risk of a crime (flashing lots of cash, > >parking in dark areas, picking up hitchhikers, etc...), then I must > >shoulder some of the responsibility if something bad happens to me. The > >situation that we are talking about is no different. History has shown > >time and time again that governments are the greatest murderers; and > >when you couple them with corporate efficiency, you get holocaust. > > > > > > > >If we are not responsible for our current state, are we also not > >responsible for changing it? > >Of course we are! If you've been given a lousy education (as I was) >you spend the rest of your life trying to make up for it, but that >doesn't change the fact that you were given a lousy education in the >first place, nor absolve those responsible for it. Or don't you see >things that way? Maybe you think I laid myself open to it because I >was just a child and didn't know any better so it was my own fault? > >With all due respect, Bryan, have you or have you not read the >Stauber piece I posted? And perhaps done a bit of research on people >like Bernays and what PR actually is, which I referred you to in the >first place? Because you really don't seem to know. It seems to me >that if you had read it you wouldn't be veering down these weird >cul-de-sacs and putting stuff into my mouth that I wouldn't dream of, >let alone think, let alone say. > >If you haven't read it, and more, then I suggest you do so as this >discussion is otherwise fruitless. (So I'll leave it all there below. >Pity about the bandwidth.) And please don't say you don't have the >time - nobody else has the time to take part in nor read such >one-sided discussions either. > > >How do you liberate someone who believes himself to be free? > >You mean yourself? Otherwise it's a specious question - you've >changed the nature of the problem. According to your original >response it should be "How do you motivate someone who is apathetic?" >Liberation, belief and freedom are a different ballgame, eh? Also >played with a ball, yes, but different. As far as the effects of PR >go, all you have to do is stop the PR or counter it. > >And, as I said in the first place, repossess the
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
Keith, I read the Stauber pieces, and the fact that you cite them proves my point that information about government corruption and PR is readily available to ANYONE who cares to find it (as is information about most shady dealings done by, or on behalf of the government). All one has to do is get on the internet, go to an alternative bookstore, or listen to shortwave radio to find numerous (verifiable) accounts of government wrongdoing. Even the government-controlled mainstream media occasionally provides a snippet of shocking truth. Most Americans make a conscious effort to ignore these “lapses of sanity,” and believe only what they choose. Blame who you like on this apathy, but with the truth so readily available, it’s hard for me to view them as victims. You may feel like you got a bad education, but you seem to have overcome it just fine. Are you so exceptional that you are the only one able to do so? Furthermore, since when is education is a right? There’s nothing in our (US) Constitution about education. While the government provides free primary and secondary education it’s ridiculous to assume that these institutions will reflect anything but the agenda of that which funds them. Even still, it is possible to get a good public education, but only if the parents actively participate. Unfortunately for many children, the extent of their parent’s involvement is praise and/or admonishment when the grades come out. So I suppose that you are right if “repossess the education system” is a code for caring and being involved in what your children learn. As for repossessing the media, how do you propose taking something back that you never owned in the first place? We can only undermine it by using other sources for our news and information. That’s what we’re doing right now. Of course sifting the vast amounts of data on the internet requires active thought, or you’ll easily fall into the same trap as with TV (believing everything you see). Elections are a different story. I don’t really see a solution to fixing them. Campaign reform usually results in incumbent protection, and donation caps will only mean that money normally spent on a specific candidate’s campaign, will be directed to general party propaganda or “non-targeted” ad campaigns in disputed districts. If you limit the amount of money a candidate can spend on his campaign, or limit advertising, you start down the slippery slope of limiting first amendment rights. Really the only thing that we can do is participate, be diligent, and actively question everything that we see or hear. You whine about a “level playing field” ROTF LOL!!! I’ve got some bad news for you bucko, the world isn’t fair, and never will be. All you will ever be able to do is mitigate that unfairness. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 11:08 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] >So what you're saying What I'm saying is what I said, what you're saying is another matter and your business, not mine. >is that people refuse to challenge or investigate >allegations made in the media, and/or disbelieve them when shown proof >is a direct result of the corporate/government propaganda machine; and >that these people are victims because they have been manipulated into >this state of denial. > > > >How does this theory explain why people when faced with overwhelming, >undeniable proof of government wrongdoing (Watergate, Iran-Contra, >Whitewater, etc...) simply shrug their shoulders, hop into their SUV's, >and head down to a chain restaurant for a few beers? > > > >Your analogy about a murderer and his victim that almost fits. While >murderers are ultimately culpable for their actions, we must still take >prudent action to protect ourselves from them. If I engage in >activities that put me at risk of a crime (flashing lots of cash, >parking in dark areas, picking up hitchhikers, etc...), then I must >shoulder some of the responsibility if something bad happens to me. The >situation that we are talking about is no different. History has shown >time and time again that governments are the greatest murderers; and >when you couple them with corporate efficiency, you get holocaust. > > > >If we are not responsible for our current st
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
>So what you're saying What I'm saying is what I said, what you're saying is another matter and your business, not mine. >is that people refuse to challenge or investigate >allegations made in the media, and/or disbelieve them when shown proof >is a direct result of the corporate/government propaganda machine; and >that these people are victims because they have been manipulated into >this state of denial. > > > >How does this theory explain why people when faced with overwhelming, >undeniable proof of government wrongdoing (Watergate, Iran-Contra, >Whitewater, etc...) simply shrug their shoulders, hop into their SUV's, >and head down to a chain restaurant for a few beers? > > > >Your analogy about a murderer and his victim that almost fits. While >murderers are ultimately culpable for their actions, we must still take >prudent action to protect ourselves from them. If I engage in >activities that put me at risk of a crime (flashing lots of cash, >parking in dark areas, picking up hitchhikers, etc...), then I must >shoulder some of the responsibility if something bad happens to me. The >situation that we are talking about is no different. History has shown >time and time again that governments are the greatest murderers; and >when you couple them with corporate efficiency, you get holocaust. > > > >If we are not responsible for our current state, are we also not >responsible for changing it? Of course we are! If you've been given a lousy education (as I was) you spend the rest of your life trying to make up for it, but that doesn't change the fact that you were given a lousy education in the first place, nor absolve those responsible for it. Or don't you see things that way? Maybe you think I laid myself open to it because I was just a child and didn't know any better so it was my own fault? With all due respect, Bryan, have you or have you not read the Stauber piece I posted? And perhaps done a bit of research on people like Bernays and what PR actually is, which I referred you to in the first place? Because you really don't seem to know. It seems to me that if you had read it you wouldn't be veering down these weird cul-de-sacs and putting stuff into my mouth that I wouldn't dream of, let alone think, let alone say. If you haven't read it, and more, then I suggest you do so as this discussion is otherwise fruitless. (So I'll leave it all there below. Pity about the bandwidth.) And please don't say you don't have the time - nobody else has the time to take part in nor read such one-sided discussions either. >How do you liberate someone who believes himself to be free? You mean yourself? Otherwise it's a specious question - you've changed the nature of the problem. According to your original response it should be "How do you motivate someone who is apathetic?" Liberation, belief and freedom are a different ballgame, eh? Also played with a ball, yes, but different. As far as the effects of PR go, all you have to do is stop the PR or counter it. And, as I said in the first place, repossess the education system, the media, and the price-tag on a candidate's campaign. The Enemies of Democracy http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous3.html#070701 See especially the resources at the end. Best Keith >-BRAH > > > >-Original Message- >From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:54 PM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] > > > > >With all due respect Keith, > >... which usually means: None. :-) > > >your argument takes the responsibility from > >the people for their condition and places it on business. > >I don't agree. Look at the difference in the resources available and >used. Your argument is a bit like saying a murderer is innocent >because the victim was alive and therefore murderable, so it was >his/her own fault. > > >Business is > >in business to make money. > >Yes, but that's simplistic. There's the matter of scale. > >"Small-scale capitalism works out fine, but as scale increases the >departure from real capitalism becomes more pronounced---profits are >privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and >maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, >to present low and middle income taxpayers." - tvoivozhd > > >Corporations spend billions of dollars on > >propaganda because most people don't question what they see or hear. > >You're confusing cause and effect - it's the other way round. > > >So > >you are in effect blaming the corporation because it is a wolf and also > &
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
So what you're saying is that people refuse to challenge or investigate allegations made in the media, and/or disbelieve them when shown proof is a direct result of the corporate/government propaganda machine; and that these people are victims because they have been manipulated into this state of denial. How does this theory explain why people when faced with overwhelming, undeniable proof of government wrongdoing (Watergate, Iran-Contra, Whitewater, etc...) simply shrug their shoulders, hop into their SUV's, and head down to a chain restaurant for a few beers? Your analogy about a murderer and his victim that almost fits. While murderers are ultimately culpable for their actions, we must still take prudent action to protect ourselves from them. If I engage in activities that put me at risk of a crime (flashing lots of cash, parking in dark areas, picking up hitchhikers, etc...), then I must shoulder some of the responsibility if something bad happens to me. The situation that we are talking about is no different. History has shown time and time again that governments are the greatest murderers; and when you couple them with corporate efficiency, you get holocaust. If we are not responsible for our current state, are we also not responsible for changing it? How do you liberate someone who believes himself to be free? -BRAH -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 3:54 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] >With all due respect Keith, ... which usually means: None. :-) >your argument takes the responsibility from >the people for their condition and places it on business. I don't agree. Look at the difference in the resources available and used. Your argument is a bit like saying a murderer is innocent because the victim was alive and therefore murderable, so it was his/her own fault. >Business is >in business to make money. Yes, but that's simplistic. There's the matter of scale. "Small-scale capitalism works out fine, but as scale increases the departure from real capitalism becomes more pronounced---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers." - tvoivozhd >Corporations spend billions of dollars on >propaganda because most people don't question what they see or hear. You're confusing cause and effect - it's the other way round. >So >you are in effect blaming the corporation because it is a wolf and also >because the people are sheep. What ever happened to caveat emptor? It was a little problem, a glitch, a slight obstacle, that got smoothed over by having billions of dollars thrown at it. >Information is a commodity like everything else. With the accessibility >of media it is even MORE important to question the information you >receive. You think that's a simple matter? - that anyone who can read is competent to do that? Quite a common myth, but it's just not so, sorry to say, very far from it. And where in the education system are such skills taught? >To answer your question, yes I think that most people are naturally >apathetic, and lazy too. They will take the easier path if it will get >them close to their original destination. That's why incremental >repression works. If you present a person with great difficulty to keep >exactly what they have, but make it extremely easy to accept something >slightly less, most people will settle for less. Do this over a few >years or decades, and you get a bloodless enslavement of millions. Funny... I'd like to see some stats correlating the proportion of people in a society who think that and the dollars per capita spent on advertising and PR in that society. In my experience, which is by now quite wide, the fewer the dollars spent per capita on advertising and PR, the less people think most people are apathetic and lazy, and indeed the less apathetic and lazy most people seem to be. But the number of people in Western (ie industrialized) societies who think that is quite high, especially in the US, where the dollar rate is by far the highest. Anyway, Bryan, I don't think you read the refs I recommended. Eg: >Edward Bernays: "If we understand the mechanisms and motives of the >group mind, it is now possible to control and regiment the masses >according to our will without them knowing it." He called this the >"engineering of consent" and proposed that "those who manipulate >this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government >which is the true ruling power of our country. . . . In almost every >act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
he National Wildlife Federation. Corporate executives now sit on the boards of some of these groups. PR executive Leslie Dach, for instance, of the rabidly anti-environmental Edelman PR firm, is on the Audubon Society's board of directors. Meanwhile, his PR firm has helped lead the "wise use" assault on environmental regulation. Corporations and public-relations firms hire so-called activists and pay them large fees to work against the public interest. For instance, Carol Tucker Foreman was once the executive director of the Consumer Federation of America, a group that itself takes corporate dollars. Now she has her own lucrative consulting firm and works for companies like Monsanto and Proctor & Gamble, pushing rBGH and promoting the fake fat Olestra, which has been linked to bowel problems. She also works with other public-interest pretenders like the Washington, D.C.-based organization Public Voice, which takes money from agribusiness and food interests and should truthfully be called Corporate Voice. Jensen: It seems the main thrust of the PR business is to get the public to ignore atrocities. Stauber: Tom Buckmaster, the chairman of Hill & Knowlton, once stated explicitly the single most important rule of public relations: "Managing the outrage is more important than managing the hazard." From a corporate perspective, that's absolutely right. A hazard isn't a problem if you're making money off it. It's only when the public becomes aware and active that you have a problem, or, rather, a PR crisis in need of management. Jensen: How does your work at PR Watch help? Stauber: The propaganda-for-hire industry perverts democracy. We try to help citizens and journalists learn about how they're being lied to, manipulated, and too often defeated by sophisticated PR campaigns. The public-relations industry is a little like the invisible man in that old Claude Rains movie: crimes are committed, but no one can see the perpetrator. At PR Watch, we try to paint the invisible manipulators with bright orange paint. Citizens in a democracy need to know who and what interests are manipulating public opinion and policy, and how. Democracies work best without invisible men. > > > > > >-Original Message- >From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:49 AM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] > > > >Bryan Brah wrote: > > > > >Corporations (or big business), the media, and education have ALWAYS > >been controlled by the elite. The problem is not with needing to > >"repossess" anything, but rather with asserting the rights that we have > >and making the politicians do our will by voting for and against them. > >The system will work just fine if citizens would use it. > > > > > > > >So again it boils down to the same issue of how to wake the ignorant >and > >apathetic consumers from their comfortable stupor. > >So, again, it boils down to repossessing what's yours. You think they >just somehow happen to be apathetic consumers in a comfortable >stupor, it's the way they naturally are? You wouldn't think that >maybe the $135 billion a year spent in the US mainly by corporate >interests on advertising and PR might have something to do with >telling them what to do, what to think, what to believe, what to >want, what not to care about, what questions not to ask, and to do >what they're told? - Let alone billions more on "think-tanks", on >corporate media control, on campaign contributions, on bending and >twisting every social institution their way, very much including >education and academia? You don't realise consent is manufactured? >And you think it's a "level playing field" that the ordinary citizen >can compete on successfully with his (LOL!) vote and his (ROFL!) >rights? > >Suggest you have a look at some of the resources listed here: >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19277&list=BIOFUEL > >Check out Stauber and Rampton's work, learn something about Edward L >Bernays. > >Best > >Keith > > > > > > >-BRAH > > > > >>Three things you'll have to put right - or rather repossess - > >>before democracy becomes a real option in the US again: the > >>education system, the media, and the price-tag on a candidate's > >>campaign. Also your citizenship - no citizenship for corporations! > >>(Study the history of corporations.) While other interests - > >>corporate mainly - control these institutions you'll be much closer > >>to Curtis's dreams of slavery than to any sort of citizenship, no > >>matter how comfortably buffered with consumer durables your slavery > >>might be. > >> > >>Best > >> > >>Keith > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
With all due respect Keith, your argument takes the responsibility from the people for their condition and places it on business. Business is in business to make money. Corporations spend billions of dollars on propaganda because most people don't question what they see or hear. So you are in effect blaming the corporation because it is a wolf and also because the people are sheep. What ever happened to caveat emptor? Information is a commodity like everything else. With the accessibility of media it is even MORE important to question the information you receive. To answer your question, yes I think that most people are naturally apathetic, and lazy too. They will take the easier path if it will get them close to their original destination. That's why incremental repression works. If you present a person with great difficulty to keep exactly what they have, but make it extremely easy to accept something slightly less, most people will settle for less. Do this over a few years or decades, and you get a bloodless enslavement of millions. -BRAH -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 6:49 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] Bryan Brah wrote: >Corporations (or big business), the media, and education have ALWAYS >been controlled by the elite. The problem is not with needing to >"repossess" anything, but rather with asserting the rights that we have >and making the politicians do our will by voting for and against them. >The system will work just fine if citizens would use it. > > > >So again it boils down to the same issue of how to wake the ignorant and >apathetic consumers from their comfortable stupor. So, again, it boils down to repossessing what's yours. You think they just somehow happen to be apathetic consumers in a comfortable stupor, it's the way they naturally are? You wouldn't think that maybe the $135 billion a year spent in the US mainly by corporate interests on advertising and PR might have something to do with telling them what to do, what to think, what to believe, what to want, what not to care about, what questions not to ask, and to do what they're told? - Let alone billions more on "think-tanks", on corporate media control, on campaign contributions, on bending and twisting every social institution their way, very much including education and academia? You don't realise consent is manufactured? And you think it's a "level playing field" that the ordinary citizen can compete on successfully with his (LOL!) vote and his (ROFL!) rights? Suggest you have a look at some of the resources listed here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19277&list=BIOFUEL Check out Stauber and Rampton's work, learn something about Edward L Bernays. Best Keith > > >-BRAH >>Three things you'll have to put right - or rather repossess - >>before democracy becomes a real option in the US again: the >>education system, the media, and the price-tag on a candidate's >>campaign. Also your citizenship - no citizenship for corporations! >>(Study the history of corporations.) While other interests - >>corporate mainly - control these institutions you'll be much closer >>to Curtis's dreams of slavery than to any sort of citizenship, no >>matter how comfortably buffered with consumer durables your slavery >>might be. >> >>Best >> >>Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=231971.3069354.4492417.1728375/D=egroupweb/S=1705 083269:HM/A=1540635/R=4/id=noscript/*http:/shop.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/ clink?proflowers2+shopping:dmad/M=231971.3069354.4492417.1728375/D=egrou pweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1540635/R=5/1050493971+http://us.rmi.yahoo.com/rm i/http://www.proflowers.com/rmi-unframed-url/http://www.proflowers.com/f reechocolate/index.cfm%3FREF=FCHYahooEgroupsEasterLRECgif> <http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/pr/proflowers2/easter_tulip_300x250 _choc.gif> <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=231971.3069354.4492417.1728375/D=egrou pmail/S=:HM/A=1540635/rand=965645123> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM --
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
Bryan Brah wrote: >Corporations (or big business), the media, and education have ALWAYS >been controlled by the elite. The problem is not with needing to >"repossess" anything, but rather with asserting the rights that we have >and making the politicians do our will by voting for and against them. >The system will work just fine if citizens would use it. > > > >So again it boils down to the same issue of how to wake the ignorant and >apathetic consumers from their comfortable stupor. So, again, it boils down to repossessing what's yours. You think they just somehow happen to be apathetic consumers in a comfortable stupor, it's the way they naturally are? You wouldn't think that maybe the $135 billion a year spent in the US mainly by corporate interests on advertising and PR might have something to do with telling them what to do, what to think, what to believe, what to want, what not to care about, what questions not to ask, and to do what they're told? - Let alone billions more on "think-tanks", on corporate media control, on campaign contributions, on bending and twisting every social institution their way, very much including education and academia? You don't realise consent is manufactured? And you think it's a "level playing field" that the ordinary citizen can compete on successfully with his (LOL!) vote and his (ROFL!) rights? Suggest you have a look at some of the resources listed here: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=19277&list=BIOFUEL Check out Stauber and Rampton's work, learn something about Edward L Bernays. Best Keith > > >-BRAH >>Three things you'll have to put right - or rather repossess - >>before democracy becomes a real option in the US again: the >>education system, the media, and the price-tag on a candidate's >>campaign. Also your citizenship - no citizenship for corporations! >>(Study the history of corporations.) While other interests - >>corporate mainly - control these institutions you'll be much closer >>to Curtis's dreams of slavery than to any sort of citizenship, no >>matter how comfortably buffered with consumer durables your slavery >>might be. >> >>Best >> >>Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] [democracies]
that transpires behind the scenes and in the hidden recesses of each and every paragraph, sub-title and sub-section. The fifth is genuine election finance reform. Close the loopholes. Send the lawyers home without their supper. End of story. (?) Flat tax? Naw. It doesn't apply here. All you asked was "how to wake the ignorant and apathetic consumers from their comfortable stupor[?]" Which would take the converstation to a different plane of thought - "Is ignorance the lack of knowledge or the ignoring of what one knows to be true?" Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: "Bryan Brah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] [snip] > A true democracy wouldn't fix this problem. If each citizen voted on > every issue, the result would likely be people voting for or against > issues that they didn't understand or care about. Saying that each > voter SHOULD take the time to understand EVERY issue is extremely > unrealistic. > > Since individuals are generally concerned with only a few issues. The > key to making representative government work is making your wishes known > to those representing you and holding them accountable for their votes. > > > > > Corporations (or big business), the media, and education have ALWAYS > been controlled by the elite. The problem is not with needing to > "repossess" anything, but rather with asserting the rights that we have > and making the politicians do our will by voting for and against them. > The system will work just fine if citizens would use it. > > > > So again it boils down to the same issue of how to wake the ignorant and > apathetic consumers from their comfortable stupor. > > > > -BRAH > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
The US does not have, nor has it ever had a "democratic" government. In a democracy, there is little protection for minority opinion. 51% of the votes decides an issue regardless of what the other 49% wants. Adding a constitution to democracy provides some protection from the mob, but it is still "majority rule" because that same mob could change the constitution. The Constitutional Republic form of government envisioned by the Founding Fathers streamlines the operation of government and stabilizes the whim of the masses by placing a layer of decision between them and the actual administration of laws. By staggering the election terms, you ensure a degree of continuity in the government and prevent a single party or group from sweeping into office in a single election. It also makes it more difficult to pass laws by specifying procedures to introduce and review proposed laws, while the executive also has the ability to veto laws. Ideally, elected officials should represent as few citizens as practical. Unfortunately with the current number of representatives frozen, each one stands in for over half a million citizens. This in itself is not a problem, however when coupled with a disgusted and apathetic electorate you get pandering career politicians who are out of touch with the will of the people. A true democracy wouldn't fix this problem. If each citizen voted on every issue, the result would likely be people voting for or against issues that they didn't understand or care about. Saying that each voter SHOULD take the time to understand EVERY issue is extremely unrealistic. Since individuals are generally concerned with only a few issues. The key to making representative government work is making your wishes known to those representing you and holding them accountable for their votes. Corporations (or big business), the media, and education have ALWAYS been controlled by the elite. The problem is not with needing to "repossess" anything, but rather with asserting the rights that we have and making the politicians do our will by voting for and against them. The system will work just fine if citizens would use it. So again it boils down to the same issue of how to wake the ignorant and apathetic consumers from their comfortable stupor. -BRAH [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
David Crabb wrote: > I am not an authority on this subject, but I believe in order to truly be >a democracy, then everyone gets to go vote. Everybody has the right to vote, and the opportunity to do so. Whether they HAVE to or not is a different matter. >Certainly this is fine for town hall meetings, and county wide contests.. >and a small number of items put up for public vote.. > >but it becomes more difficult when you are dealing with a large population >over a large land mass, >and a large number of items upon which to vote. > >perhaps someday, when everyone gets the citizen ID chip in their wrist whatever orwellian device> >then you could have everyone voting for every item. > >... but right now, supposedly it is a full time job doing politics, so the >average person wouldn't have time >to research all the issues in order to make an informed decision. ... so instead you prefer to cede your responsibilities to others, who somehow out of the sheer goodness of their hearts do "have the time" that you don't have. How trusting to believe that they'll take them on for you and of course continue to do full honour to you and your concerns and needs. What you can then expect to happen is that your rights will be purloined and abused, as indeed they have been and continue to be. Three things you'll have to put right - or rather repossess - before democracy becomes a real option in the US again: the education system, the media, and the price-tag on a candidate's campaign. Also your citizenship - no citizenship for corporations! (Study the history of corporations.) While other interests - corporate mainly - control these institutions you'll be much closer to Curtis's dreams of slavery than to any sort of citizenship, no matter how comfortably buffered with consumer durables your slavery might be. Best Keith > > What is UK then? - constitutional monarchy > > What is Canada then? - confederation with parliamentary democracy > > What is Australia then? - democratic, federal-state system recognizing the >British monarch as sovereign > > What is Spain then? - parliamentary monarchy > > What is Sweden then? - constitutional monarchy > > What is France then? - republic > > What is Germany then? - federal republic > > What is Switzerland then? - federal republic > >and the USA - federal republic; strong democratic tradition > > > > > I am very interested in your definitions of above countries. > > > > Hakan > > > > At 02:00 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >A democracy is mob rule. A republic is democracy with a constitution that > > >specifies what limits the mob has. our 3 way system of government is set >up > > >with checks and balances that prevent any one group from over ruling the > > >rights of others. It's quite simple in a complex way. It works for us. > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >- Original Message - > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 1:23 PM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve, Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] [democracies]
Then the only solution is to save us from ourselves, no? Todd - Original Message - From: "Crabb, David" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, April 14, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] [democracies] > I am not an authority on this subject, but I believe in order to truly be > a democracy, then everyone gets to go vote. > > Certainly this is fine for town hall meetings, and county wide contests.. > and a small number of items put up for public vote.. > > but it becomes more difficult when you are dealing with a large population > over a large land mass, > and a large number of items upon which to vote. > > perhaps someday, when everyone gets the citizen ID chip in their wrist whatever orwellian device> > then you could have everyone voting for every item. > > ... but right now, supposedly it is a full time job doing politics, so the > average person wouldn't have time > to research all the issues in order to make an informed decision. > > > > > > > > What is UK then? - constitutional monarchy > > What is Canada then? - confederation with parliamentary democracy > > What is Australia then? - democratic, federal-state system recognizing the > British monarch as sovereign > > What is Spain then? - parliamentary monarchy > > What is Sweden then? - constitutional monarchy > > What is France then? - republic > > What is Germany then? - federal republic > > What is Switzerland then? - federal republic > > and the USA - federal republic; strong democratic tradition > > > > > I am very interested in your definitions of above countries. > > > > Hakan > > > > At 02:00 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > > >A democracy is mob rule. A republic is democracy with a constitution that > > >specifies what limits the mob has. our 3 way system of government is set > up > > >with checks and balances that prevent any one group from over ruling the > > >rights of others. It's quite simple in a complex way. It works for us. > > > > > > > > >Steve Spence > > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > >http://www.green-trust.org > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >- Original Message - > > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: > > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 1:23 PM > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Steve, > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get a FREE REFINANCE QUOTE - click here! http://us.click.yahoo.com/2CXtTB/ca0FAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] [democracies]
I am not an authority on this subject, but I believe in order to truly be a democracy, then everyone gets to go vote. Certainly this is fine for town hall meetings, and county wide contests.. and a small number of items put up for public vote.. but it becomes more difficult when you are dealing with a large population over a large land mass, and a large number of items upon which to vote. perhaps someday, when everyone gets the citizen ID chip in their wrist then you could have everyone voting for every item. ... but right now, supposedly it is a full time job doing politics, so the average person wouldn't have time to research all the issues in order to make an informed decision. > > What is UK then? - constitutional monarchy > What is Canada then? - confederation with parliamentary democracy > What is Australia then? - democratic, federal-state system recognizing the British monarch as sovereign > What is Spain then? - parliamentary monarchy > What is Sweden then? - constitutional monarchy > What is France then? - republic > What is Germany then? - federal republic > What is Switzerland then? - federal republic and the USA - federal republic; strong democratic tradition > > I am very interested in your definitions of above countries. > > Hakan > > At 02:00 PM 4/12/2003 -0400, you wrote: > >A democracy is mob rule. A republic is democracy with a constitution that > >specifies what limits the mob has. our 3 way system of government is set up > >with checks and balances that prevent any one group from over ruling the > >rights of others. It's quite simple in a complex way. It works for us. > > > > > >Steve Spence > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > >& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > >http://www.green-trust.org > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >- Original Message - > >From: "Hakan Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 1:23 PM > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Bringing democracy to Sweden > > > > > > > > > > Steve, Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/yMx78A/fNtFAA/i5gGAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
