Re: [svg-developers] San Diego svg group?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, George–

If you don't have any luck finding a general SVG group, you might see if 
there are any d3.js groups in the area. It's a very popular SVG script 
library right now, and it does deal with some map types.

Regards–
-Doug

On 8/16/13 12:13 PM, george wrote:
> Greetings to all.
> I am interested in getting started creating maps in svg.
> Is there a group which meets in San Diego County?
> Thanks
> George
>




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[svg-developers] [ot] Standardizing a Geometry API

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

Some of us who are interested in having a geometry API available in 
browsers (for finding intersections, matrix operations, and sundry 
niceties) have started the W3C Geometry API community group [1][2].

We'd love for interested parties from this list to join the CG to help 
us define what this geometry API should look like.

(Sorry for the standardization emails on this list. I just think there's 
a large intersection of interested people... pun intended...)

[1] http://www.w3.org/community/geometryapi/
[2] http://www.w3.org/community/geometryapi/wiki/Main_Page

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

Thanks for the thoughtful and concrete reply.

On 6/7/13 10:25 PM, David Dailey wrote:
>
> You've made a lot of good points here about CSS being more popular
> than SVG: more people care; more people can edit the spec; the range
> of applicability (to HTML as well as SVG and other domains) is
> greater. And I appreciate the effort to expand the dialogue to
> svg-developers, since www-svg tends to be less about the philosophy
> of where SVG ought to go and more about how to get to wherever it is
> already known to be going.
>
> It sounds like we share the frustration about the sluggishness of
> progress with SVG text. As you know I've been teaching lots of folks
> to learn SVG, through both the W3C, in accredited educational
> channels and other venues, in most of the world's continents.
> Frustration about text handling in SVG is something, as an educator,
> I hear from a lot of folks. It's a shame that there is not an easier
> forum to let those frustrations boil up to the point that
> implementers might actually hear it!

You're right, and my own frustration on this is compounded by the fact
that W3C does provide just such a channel for feedback, the
www-...@w3.org list, but in many ways, that's inadequate... I could go
into details, but the long and the short is that it seems to be too high
a barrier for most people, and processing and tracking those comments
and suggestions is not an easy task... this is something that we hope
WebPlatform.org can help with in the future (but not quite yet).


> You mention frustrations with other like SMIL, and the list can be
> extended to include other topics as well, but text is the issue I'm
> fussing about here, so let me just respond to a couple of your
> questions.
>
> DS: What do you mean by "much more"? Wrapping text to arbitrary
> shapes? That is also coming, but as part of a more complex proposal
> that will also hopefully be part of SVG 2 (but may be deferred a
> bit, since we are trying to be have an aggressive schedule to move
> SVG 2 forward).  Simple CSS text wrapping is meant for the most
> common case, a basic rectangular area.
>
> Well, it is good to be able to confine and flow text into rectangles
> and into arbitrary shapes. Maybe I am not understanding the proposal.
> Confining text to a rectangle is something that is pretty easy to do
> with about 3 lines of JavaScript; even beginning students can do that
> in exercises.

True, and it's not much harder to wrap to certain other shapes (circles,
triangles, etc.) using script, but a declarative solution is better (and
easier for designers).


> I suppose it wouldn't matter too much if browsers implemented SVG in
> HTML or HTML in SVG consistently, but consistency in 
> all seem to be areas that
> implementations have decided to ignore. There are lots of examples
> of inconsistency reported over the years here and at www-svg.

We have a spec, SVG Integration, that should address those inconsistencies.


> Maybe they've all been fixed, but I rather doubt it, since my
> personal experience as a seasoned developer is that browsers are
> diverging rather than converging in consistency in their
> implementations, for the complicated stuff. Happily, the simple stuff
> is reaching consolidation!

The key here is testing. I think the reason you are perceiving increased
inconsistency is rather because more parts of the spec are implemented
by more browsers, and we need more tests to make sure they do it right.

The is where the "Test the Web Forward" project will help. That's a 
crowdsourcing effort (started by Adobe) to contribute tests to W3C for 
inclusion in our test suites, to make sure that browser vendors have 
even clearer implement guidelines and coordination.


> Text handling should include

This is a great list of concrete suggestions. Some of them are already
being addressed in SVG 2 (or are planned to be), and some will still
need to be considered. I'll try to triage them here and let you know
where I understand the state of them to be... I'll also pass it along to
the SVG WG.


> a) methods to select text through dragging, double clicking etc.

Though I agree with you, and add that text should also be findable in
the document just like HTML text is, this is not something that the spec
normally would define, since it's a "quality of implementation" issue,
and because it may not be applicable to all UA; nevertheless, I think we
could try to put in a "should" on this in the spec, on the section for
interactivity. I would add

BTW, most browsers already let you do this; Firefox has a
long-outstanding bug about this, and I think it's the final lagger.
Cameron MacCormack has recently put in a considerable amount of effort
in revamping Firefox's text handling, and tied it into their CSS engine,
which allows you to select it just as you would expect; I think his
refinements will be released in the next few months.


> b) ability to click between characters and allow insertion of new
> t

Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Andrew-

Thanks for your feedback.

On 6/6/13 4:42 AM, AndrewB wrote:
>
> Wrapping text using the CSS box model seems like a great idea to me
> because it means I (and others) only have to become familiar with one
> model for most text layout tasks.

Yup. I think that's the real power of the proposal: it leverages the 
general developer knowledge base, and simplifies the Open Web Platform 
in general.


> I also like the simplicity of the overflow property suggested here
> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Wrapping_Text and if
> I read it correctly, the proposed simplicity of controlling what
> happens on overflow e.g. overflow = visible or clipped though I do
> think the refinements on this are important i.e. it is important to
> include values " to allow the author control over whether clipped
> text renders in part, in whole, or not at all"

That's correct, if we want to add these options, we would have to extend 
CSS's 'overflow' a bit to allow it to hide or fully show clipped text (I 
guess that would be 2 new keywords); we'd thus have to convince the CSS 
WG that that particular use case is worth it, so if you have concrete 
examples where that would be useful, please let me know!

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Joe-

Hi, On 6/7/13 11:59 AM, Joe Doll wrote:
>
> My only input is that the text wrapping feature should be able to be
> turned on and off. If you don't, people will want to do things with
> text, and the wrapping will be trying to make sure that they don't.

Great point. I'll make sure to specify that the default is to have all 
the text on a single line (like it is today) and that the wrapping only 
applies when there is a width specified for the text.

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jason-

On 6/5/13 11:42 PM, Jason Barnabas wrote:
> I would love to have text wrapping, even if it's only in a
> box to start with. This will beat the multi-line or text on
> a path I have been using.
>
> If you could fill a shape with justified text that would be
> even more awesome.

Yes, that should be possible, since we'll just be using the CSS box 
model, which allows justified text.


> Thanks for your work and letting me put my two cents in.

Thanks for your feedback, and for using SVG!

Regards-
-Doug





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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, James-

On 6/5/13 7:52 PM, jamesd wrote:
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Schepers wrote:
>
> "As regular users of SVG, I'd like to know if there are any
> considerations we should take into account, if you feel this would
> meet your needs for use in SVG, or if you have any concerns."
>
> In my opinion there is no need for this. Since it is quite easy to
> allow other file formats that are not open source to be introduced
> into the specs (WOFF fonts) why not just introduce the CSS Div and p
> (paragraph element) into the spec?
>
> This way all text handling could be easily handled and the need for
> HTML would be negated.

You can already use  and  in SVG, inside the ungainly 
 element; it would be nice if this were easier (maybe an 
 element?), and we've discussed some proposals in the SVG WG, but 
so far we haven't found consensus with the implementers.

Adding  and  as elements directly in SVG would actually cause a 
conflict in the markup parser (i.e., it would kick the parser out of 
"SVG mode" and back into "HTML mode").


(Whether or not something is open source isn't really relevant from a 
technical perspective... but fwiw, WOFF and OpenType are open formats, 
even if they are binary and even if the contents may be under copyright.)


> See:
>
> https://googledrive.com/host/0B_A5rZ_7DsD2WGVSc1hpRnVCdk0/jcdsvg_1.html
>
>  I know you are prone to complicated solutions to problems that don't
> exist (Parameters), but I prefer simplicity.

Perhaps you don't see a use for Params, but many people have asked me to 
move it forward because it's just what they need, and it is not 
particularly complicated to understand or use.

I also favor simplicity. Reasonable people can disagree about what 
constitutes "simple".

The solution you propose on your site may seems simple on the surface, 
and does have a certain elegance, but it's more complex than it appears, 
to specify and to implement. Still, I'd like to get to that point.

But for for labels and short runs of text (a very common use case), this 
doesn't seem particularly complex to me:


  
  text {
width: 300px;
height: 500px;
  }
  

  Some text to be wrapped goes here.


For more complex case, like lists, tables, multiple paragraphs, etc., 
you will need to use inline HTML; again, hopefully we can make that 
simpler in the future.


Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

Thanks for the honest response. I'll try to address your comments as 
best I can, and I hope you can bear with me in detailing your issues so 
we can arrive at a mutual understanding of the situation.


On 6/5/13 10:41 AM, David Dailey wrote:
>
> I suspect you already know that I’ll not be happy until much more is
> accomplished

What do you mean by "much more"? Wrapping text to arbitrary shapes? That 
is also coming, but as part of a more complex proposal that will also 
hopefully be part of SVG 2 (but may be deferred a bit, since we are 
trying to be have an aggressive schedule to move SVG 2 forward).

Simple CSS text wrapping is meant for the most common case, a basic 
rectangular area.


> and am rather dismayed that it has taken more than a
> decade to get even rudimentary text areas into SVG in a way that will
> work across browsers.

Same here, which is why I'm trying as hard as I can to push this 
forward, and trying to drum up support for it, to illustrate to the 
browser vendors that this should be a priority.


> Coupling the fate of SVG with developments in CSS seems like putting
> the cart before the horse and seems to be slowing down progress in
> SVG.

In my view, it's just the opposite (as I may have mentioned to you 
before). Here's a rationale:

1) We have limited people editing the specs for SVG; having people from 
the CSS WG edit specs increases both the number and the range of 
expertise of people available to edit (for example, Alan Stearns is an 
expert in arbitrary text-wrapping from years of work on InDesign, etc., 
and is editing the CSS Shapes spec, which SVG will use);

2) SVG is *much* less popular than CSS, and is therefore a much lower 
priority for implementers; by piggybacking on features defined in CSS, 
we increase the likelihood and the speed of initial implementation, and 
decrease the cost and improve the rate of maintenance; this may also 
make the browsers more favorably disposed toward SVG in general, because 
it's less work for them;

3) By sharing features with CSS/HTML, we dramatically increase the 
number of authors (developers and designers) who are familiar with and 
excited by the feature, decreasing the barrier to entry for people just 
starting out with SVG who are already familiar with CSS and HTML (e.g., 
the overwhelming majority).

The downside, of course, is that there is a little bit of adjustment up 
front... growing pains. The SVG WG is doing extra work to clean up SVG 2 
and make sure things are defined in a way that works well with CSS (and 
working with the CSS WG to ensure that they define things in a way that 
works for SVG). Some implementations are being adjusted. But on the 
whole, it shouldn't affect authors that much (mostly the aforementioned 
delays on new features), and it should pay big dividends going forward. 
And I don't really see many other downsides.


On the particular topic of this thread, text-wrapping, there is no 
evidence to support the notion that coordinating with CSS is slowing us 
down (in fact, the CSS WG's advice was extremely helpful), and explicit 
evidence to show that this feature would not have moved forward if it 
were SVG-only: SVG Tiny 1.2 has had a very well-defined  
element [1] for text wrapping that has been around for 4.5 years (!), 
and has only one browser implementation, Opera (and it's possible 
Opera's implementation may go away as they move their engine from Presto 
to Blink... a real shame...). By contrast, within a day of suggesting 
this to Cameron MacCormack, he had a rough first-pass implementation of 
text wrapping using 'width', precisely because it came for nearly free 
by using CSS.


I suspect that part of your frustration is not "moving features to CSS" 
in general, but rather the specific topic of SMIL (and maybe also SVG 
Fonts). This was not so much a matter of CSS, as it was the specific 
decisions of Microsoft, Google, Apple, and to some degree Mozilla, all 
disliked SMIL, and some refused to implement it (or planned to remove 
existing code bases); it was simply not going to be interoperable, and 
for most authors, that's a deal-killer. The good news is that, in 
addition to all the script libraries out there that let you animate in 
SVG, the new Web Animations 1.0 spec [2] was approved for First Public 
Working Draft; it is generally more powerful and easier to use than SMIL 
[3], and a declarative syntax for SVG is planned that should mimic SMIL 
as much as possible for backwards compatibility.


If I've misinterpreted or misunderstood the nature of your concerns, 
please set me straight.


> I suspect my sentiments on such matters are already well known, but I
> would be remiss in my obligation to other authors who share this
> perspective if I did not say it again.

Forgive my ignorance, but is this a common sentiment? I don't hear it 
expressed much; most of the time when I mention that SVG is deferring to 
CSS on functionality, it's met with relief, because more p

Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Wade-

Thanks for the affirmation.

I'll keep this list informed as we make edits to the spec.

I hope to keep this proposal pretty simple: basically, SVG text would 
just become CSS box-model text.

Regards-
-Doug


On 6/5/13 8:50 AM, G. Wade Johnson wrote:
> Hi Doug,
>
> On Wed, 05 Jun 2013 02:57:42 -0400
> Doug Schepers  wrote:
>
>> Hi, folks-
>>
>> Some of you may remember me, though I haven't been very active in
>> this list for a while. I work for W3C, I'm on the SVG Working Group,
>> and I've been developing SVG apps and docs since about 2000 (though
>> I'm a little rusty with development :D). I'm writing today to mention
>> a proposal for the SVG 2 spec, and to solicit feedback.
>>
>> Over the years, I've spoken to many people who use SVG, and one of
>> the pain points they remark on is wrapping text (aka multi-line text
>> or flowing text).
>>
>> For a while now, we've planned to allow text wrapping into arbitrary
>> shapes, most recently as part of the CSS regions, exclusions, and
>> shapes specs. But those might take a while.
>>
>> In the short term, I think there's room for simple text wrapping
>> based on CSS's box model. Effectively, by providing a width to a
>>  element in SVG, it would wrap the text to that width.
>
> Definitely agreed.
>
>> I think this is a pretty simple proposal, and it could be implemented
>> fairly quickly after being specced out in SVG 2.
>
> The proposal looks quite good as a starting point. I can imagine it
> being extended unnecessarily before actually being added. But that may
> just be because I'm cynical.
>
>> You can read more about my rough proposal here:
>> * http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Wrapping_Text
>> * http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2013Jun/0007.html
>> * http://schepers.cc/its-a-wrap
>> * http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width.svg
>> * http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width-tspan.svg
>>
>> As regular users of SVG, I'd like to know if there are any
>> considerations we should take into account, if you feel this would
>> meet your needs for use in SVG, or if you have any concerns.
>
> What you've proposed would handle every case I can think of where I
> have personally needed text wrapping. I don't do really fancy SVG, but
> the proposal would solve the problems I've had.
>
> G. Wade
>






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Re: [svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

Thanks for the thoughtful questions.

On 6/5/13 11:01 AM, Jeff Schiller wrote:
>
> I guess that height would also be needed for vertical fonts?

Yes.

CSS is a bit clumsy there, unlike XSL-FO, but as improvements come on 
the internationalization front in CSS, SVG would just inherit those "for 
free".


> I think I saw you mention that in one of your links...  I can't
> really figure out how this would work for a  with a mixture of
> spans of horizontal / vertical text, but that's why I don't write
> specs! :)

That's a good question; I reckon the answer is that it would work just
as with an HTML  with a mix of vertical and horizontal s. The
output might not be pretty (just as it may not with HTML), but the
behavior should be no different.


> What if a  element has a  in it?  If a word on a path
> would be displayed outside of the text's width, what should happen?

Another excellent question.

There are two options:

1) All text in SVG is "flattened" (e.g., virtually removed from its
containing child elements, such as  or ), and laid out
according to the parent  width;

2)  content is not treated as part of the text layout, and
follows its own rules.

I favor the latter. What about you?

BTW, we had planned to allow the  element to stand alone in
SVG 2, with no need for a containing  element parent, as part of
an overall simplification of the language for authors; what do you think
about that?


> Would the whitespace property work with this (i.e. what values, if
> any, would be supported for the CSS whitespace property)?
>
> Would overflow-wrap/word-wrap: break-word work with this? (i.e. for
> words that are longer than the text area is wide)
>
> Would any of these CSS properties be supported: line-break,
> word-break, hyphens?

The answer to all of these is the same: SVG text would be part of the
CSS box model, with all the flexibility that CSS offers for text layout,
most likely including margins and padding (but probably not floats).
This includes whitespace, overflow (and scroll), and hyphenation.

Regards-
-Doug




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[svg-developers] Wrapping Text in SVG 2

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

Some of you may remember me, though I haven't been very active in this 
list for a while. I work for W3C, I'm on the SVG Working Group, and I've 
been developing SVG apps and docs since about 2000 (though I'm a little 
rusty with development :D). I'm writing today to mention a proposal for 
the SVG 2 spec, and to solicit feedback.

Over the years, I've spoken to many people who use SVG, and one of the 
pain points they remark on is wrapping text (aka multi-line text or 
flowing text).

For a while now, we've planned to allow text wrapping into arbitrary 
shapes, most recently as part of the CSS regions, exclusions, and shapes 
specs. But those might take a while.

In the short term, I think there's room for simple text wrapping based 
on CSS's box model. Effectively, by providing a width to a  
element in SVG, it would wrap the text to that width.

I think this is a pretty simple proposal, and it could be implemented 
fairly quickly after being specced out in SVG 2.

You can read more about my rough proposal here:
* http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Proposals/Wrapping_Text
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2013Jun/0007.html
* http://schepers.cc/its-a-wrap
* http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width.svg
* http://schepers.cc/svg/text/text-wrap-width-tspan.svg

As regular users of SVG, I'd like to know if there are any 
considerations we should take into account, if you feel this would meet 
your needs for use in SVG, or if you have any concerns.

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Title or desc tag in text tag?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Pranav-

I've spent a good bit of time doing SVG accessibility research, and I'm 
interested in what you're doing here.  Just for some background, I 
hacked a browser-extension screen -reader, FireVox, to support SVG, and 
tested various kinds of data visualizations for their general usefulness.

I found that one of the most annoying things was hearing extraneous or 
duplicate information.  It was very hard to contextualize data 
visualizations anyway, but when the same information was duplicated in a 
visible text "label" ( element) and a title and/or description 
( and  elements), it "cluttered" the aural landscape, 
detracting from, not enhancing, the accessibility.

So, yes, you are allowed to use  and  as children of 
, but in my experience, you should do so very sparingly, and only 
when the title differs significantly from the text content, or 
contextualizes it.  As a general rule of thumb,  should only be 
used when it is critical for the parent element to be "rendered" to the AT.

You also cannot count on  being displayed as a tooltip in all 
browsers, fwiw...

The sad fact with Assistive Technologies is that they are very late to 
the game in supporting SVG.  The SVG WG is trying to fix that, but we've 
got a way to go to define things well and get them implemented.  AT 
usually doesn't support SVG at all, and when it does, it doesn't 
necessarily pick out the most important bits... It should pick out 
, , , , , etc. and read those off to 
the user, but it doesn't always.

As another tip... though ARIA isn't guaranteed to work with SVG today, 
you should also use it appropriately, such as using @aria-describedby to 
denote a label, since that's the direction we're headed (and I've heard 
a rumor that it works in IE9).

What you can do to help move these issues forward is to write up 
use-cases and requirements, and real-world examples of usage, and 
minimal test cases, and give those to the SVG WG to help clarify and 
find consensus about what is needed.

Regards-
-Doug


Pranav Lal wrote (on 5/3/11 12:12 PM):
> Hi James,
>
> Like you, I am going for the namespace approach. However, I am trying to
> find a simpler way that I can use for SVG. Unfortunately, the viewer I am
> using as of now does not support certain aspects of text in SBG. For
> instance, though it is legal for me to imbed a  tag in a  tag,
> the viewer will not speak. The manufacturor of the viewer has his own schema
> which works nicely.
>
> I am using a third party component to generate my SVG. I was hoping to find
> a way around adapting to the manufacturor's schema but there is no help for
> it. I will have to derive the structure of the SVG file and add the relevant
> namespaces and elements.
>
> Pranav
>
> -Original Message-
> From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:svg-developers@yahoogroups.com]
> On Behalf Of james_ingram_svg
> Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 2:21 PM
> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [svg-developers] Re: Title or desc tag in text tag?
>
>
>
> Hi Pranav,
> I asked a very similar question a few months ago about including MIDI info
> in musical scores written in SVG. [1]
>
> The answer I got lead to me using a custom namespace to include the temporal
> info I needed. Its a much more flexible solution than just using the
> or  tags.
> My namespace [2] just contains MIDI info, but I'd be very interested in
> hearing how you realize spoken text.
>
> best,
> James
>
> [1]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2010Oct/0160.html
> [2]http://james-ingram-act-two.de/svgScoreExtensions.html
>
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
>   , "Pranav Lal"
> wrote:
>>
>>  Hi David,
>>
>>  Many thanks for your answer. I am working on creating SVG files for an
>>  accessible SVG viewer and am trying to get them to speak. More on that
>>  once the program is released.
>>
>>  Pranav




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Re: [svg-developers] text selection don't work in use

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Andreas-

Andreas wrote (on 3/26/11 10:40 AM):
> Text selection works fine in any browser (yes in Fox4 too, but you can't see 
> the selection).

I can't select discrete runs of text in FF4. I can only do select-all. 
Am I missing something?


> In some tests, it seems to me, that text in a  can't select, but in Fox. 
> Is this right?

I could argue it either way.  This aspect of the shadow-DOM is murky.

While I see the desirability of text-selection in , I could also 
see why the text would simply be treated as a visual representation 
within a  element, and not be selectable.   should be 
selectable, but that isn't yet implemented in FF.

The spec is totally underspecified on this point.  Implementations, 
accordingly, differ.

FF and Opera don't allow text selection in .  WebKit (Safari, 
Chrome) do.  Opera and WebKit allow text selection of .  I haven't 
yet tested IE9 for any of this.

The most interesting behavior around text selection is Opera 11... when 
you select the original text, the d text also shows the selection 
rendering.  Kinda cool.  Lends itself to the argument that the effect is 
visual, not a reflection of the original DOM, at least in Opera.

Here's a sample file:
   http://schepers.cc/svg/text-use.svg


SVG 2 will specify all this.  What do people think is the best behavior?


Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] explaining setAttribute, setAttributeNS and carburetors

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jacob-

Jacob Beard wrote (on 10/17/10 3:59 AM):
> "Note: DOM Level 1 methods are namespace ignorant. Therefore, while it
> is safe to use these methods when not dealing with namespaces, using
> them and the new ones at the same time should be avoided."

Thanks for digging that up.  I think the author of that may actually 
have been a bit confused... or at least, they didn't state the facts 
clearly.  (There may have been a bit of propagandizing there, as well, 
to get people to use XML namespaces more, perhaps.)

Indeed, if you try to set a namespaced attribute with setAttribute(), it 
won't work correctly... the attribute will be placed in the null 
namespace.  So, when you use

  el.setAttribute( "xlink:href", "#foo" );

it's the equivalent of using

  el.setAttributeNS( null, "xlink:href", "#foo" );

where the local node-name (unintuitively) is 'xlink:href', not 'href' in 
the XLink namespace.

But that's only when you're dealing with namespaces.  Since most 
attributes are in the null namespace, and setAttribute() places 
everything in the null namespace, then these are equivalent and 
perfectly safe:

  el.setAttribute( "fill", "#f00" );
  el.setAttributeNS( null, "fill", "#f00" );


As an aside, this is actually a rather poor design, which could have 
been made better if they had simply accounted for hardcoded prefixed to 
be bound to specific namespaces, rather than introducing the arbitrary 
level of abstraction where any namespace could have any prefix string; 
this is made a bit simpler in HTML5, which does define a few hardcoded 
prefixes for namespaces.  Maybe in some future version of XML, XML 
Namespaces, or the like, this can be be expanded beyond HTML.

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] explaining setAttribute, setAttributeNS and carburetors

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

ddailey wrote (on 10/16/10 9:39 PM):
>
> I know that
>  R.setAttributeNS(null,"fill", "red")is the proper construction (for SVG
> but not HTML), rather than

Actually, that works with any XML language, XHTML included (provided it 
is real XHTML, and not served as text/html).


>  R.setAttribute("fill", "red")I also know that in every SVG viewer I have
> seen, the latter has equivalent behavior to the former (for SVG but not
> HTML), .

Both are fine for SVG; they are equivalent in this case.  The only place 
they are not equivalent is when the attribute is in a separate 
namespace, as with xlink:href; then, unfortunately, setAttributeNS is 
needed.  Another example of namespaced attributes is certain metadata 
attributes, or custom attributes; both Illustrator and Inkscape produce 
these, so it's good to have a grounding in them for advanced SVG stuff.

But in this case, the only thing to know there is that (for whatever 
reason) attributes are generally in the 'null' namespace (*not* in the 
SVG or HTML or whatever host-language namespace).  I recommend teaching 
setAttribute for normal attributes, and setAttributeNS only for xlink:href.


(Note that a younger me was rather outspoken about using setAttributeNS, 
as I thought it clarified the subtleties of namespaces through making 
them explicit.  I no longer feel that way, and think that people should 
do what is easiest; there is a little pain involved in learning 
namespaces, and as much as possible, we should remove that pain.  Bad 
Younger Me, no cookie.)


> I think I was told once that the SVG spec (or maybe it is the XML spec, or
> one or another DOM spec), for some mysterious reason, leaves room for some
> future browser manufacturer to make a browser in which the latter
> construction wouldn't work.

I don't believe any spec says so, but even if it does, that's not going 
to happen.  The current trend is for increased API simplicity, so newer 
specs and existing browsers will not go that way.  setAttribute is safe 
and future-proof.

Hope that helps-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] planetsvg.com down

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

ddailey wrote (on 10/7/10 7:49 PM):
>
> There used to be a link on svg.org that talked about server
> configuration issues (mime types and the like). The SVG Primer
> pointed to it. Then it went away, so we found a place on Planet Svg
> that seemed to have even better information and redirected the
> pointer to that. But now, sigh, that is down too.

I created that page, so I actually had a local copy to use.  I've 
reinstated it here (which I believe was the original location):
  http://planetsvg.com/tools/mime.php

It's not pretty (I still need to style it), but it's functional.  You 
can test it using this URL I've set up to have the incorrect MIME Type 
("image/svg-xml", note the "-" rather than "+"):
  http://planetsvg.com/tools/tests/wrong-mime/test.svg


> Does anyone know of another good place to refer students to info on
> server configuration until Planet SVG is back up?

I don't plan on changing the server anymore, and if I do, I will try to 
make sure that that page stays at a stable location.  Sorry for the 
disruption in service.

It occurs to me that I could try to host that on the W3C site, as a 
complement to the validator services.  That would be an even more stable 
location.  Would you like me to check into that?

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] planetsvg.com down

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jake-

Jacob Beard wrote (on 10/6/10 8:51 AM):
>
> Does anyone know who runs planetsvg.com? The site has been down for at
> least the past several days (returning HTTP 500 Internal Server
> Error), and e-mails sent to the webmas...@planetsvg.lnlabs.com e-mail
> address mentioned in the returned error message also bounce back.

I own the domain, but it was hosted on Rob Russell's server.  He's had 
some problems with it (I don't know the nature), and he's said he'll get 
the original content to me.  I expect that I'll probably go back to 
hosting it in a rather stripped-down, easily-maintained form.

What specific features should I retain?  What are you using 
planetsvg.com for, and what's important to you?  Any help in maintaining 
and improving it for the future would be very welcome.

Thanks-
-Doug





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Re: [svg-developers] is there a way to reload from source?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote (on 9/5/10 10:33 AM):
> is there a way to reload  from source?
>
> the document contains a large group every line of which is altered
> using script, in this case four stopwatches.
>
> obviously one could cycle with script through every object and reset
> to zero**,  but is there a way to just reload the group from the
> source code of the document?

I don't know of a way to "reload" the element, per se.

However, if you know in the beginning that you want to treat the  
element (and its children) this way, you can make a deep clone of the 
, and simply replace the original  with the clone in order to 
"refresh" it.

Here's some untested rough code:

var originalG = null;
var currentG = null;

function init() {
  currentG = document.getElementById("watch-g");
  originalG = currentG.cloneNode(true); // 'true' means copy all the 
children, too
}

function reload () {
  currentG.parentNode.replaceChild( originalG, currentG );
  originalG = currentG.cloneNode(true); // save a new fresh copy for later
}


> if not, would this merit taking to the wg?
> if not, why not?

This would not be an issue for the SVG WG, but for the DOM folks in the 
WebApps WG.  But since this is not a overwhelmingly common use case, and 
there is relatively easy (if convoluted) workaround, I doubt that there 
would be much will among the browser vendors to add new functionality to 
allow you to properly reload portions of the document; if for no other 
reason, it would force them to cache 2 copies in memory, doubling the 
memory footprint of each document.

Hope that helps.

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Audio in SVG

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, folks-

Juca, you silly Inkscape developer, SVG Tiny 1.2 is for mobiles, and it 
has  and  elements.

Raks, you may be able to use a data URI as the href attribute value of 
the  element in SVG Tiny 1.2; it depends on the implementation. 
While SVG doesn't explicitly mention it, it is perfectly valid; data 
URIs are spelled out in RFC-2397.

Here's an example of it [1], using an HTML  element in an SVG, 
but the principle is the same... just use the data URI in the SVG 
 element instead (don't forget to use the SVG syntax instead of 
the HTML syntax, in your case.


[1] http://schepers.cc/svg/multimedia/audio-datauri.svg

Regards-
-Doug



Felipe Sanches wrote (on 8/23/10 10:44 AM):
> oh...
> I believe that the only way to do it in a standards compliant way is using
> html5 audio.
>
> Non-standards-compliant ways include using dirty-Flash :-P
>
> On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Raks A  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  Thanks but I do not have the option of using HTML5 as I want to do this in
>>  mobiles which do not support HTML5
>>
>>  On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 7:26 PM, Felipe 
>> Sanches
>>  >wrote:
>>
>>
>>  >  you can checkout this directory from my svn:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  
>> http://code.google.com/p/felipesanches/source/browse/#svn/trunk/SVG/minigames/TuxVsMSNbug
>>  >
>>  >  it contains a demo of using SVG with base64 encoded audio created using
>>  >  html5 audio tag
>>  >
>>  >  Happy Hacking,
>>  >  Felipe "Juca" Sanches
>>  >
>>  >  On Mon, Aug 23, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Raks 
>> A>
>>  wrote:
>>  >
>>  >  >
>>  >  >
>>  >  >  Hi,
>>  >  >
>>  >  >  Is there a way I can embed the sound effects into a SVG file without a
>>  >  http
>>  >  >  link
>>  >  >  something we can do for an image like
>>  >  >  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click "edit my 
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Re: [svg-developers] Did Examotion go out of business?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Paul-

paulroubekas wrote (on 8/18/10 10:26 AM):
> The URL does not work anymore. They had an SVG viewer called RENESIS
>
> http://www.examotion.com

My understanding is that they did go out of business.

Since the next version of all major browsers will support SVG, their SVG 
viewer was perhaps less interesting than the fact that they had some 
good authoring tools, which they did not seem to release or promote. 
It's a pity. :(

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] HOWTO: opposite clip

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Folks-

I think David is right, a mask is the correct thing to do here, but it's 
not very intuitive.

It does seem strange that there is no easy way to reverse the clip-path. 
  Last week, I filed a feature request to add it in SVG 2; that doesn't 
help right now, but it will make things easier in the future.

  http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2354

Regards-
-Doug


ddailey wrote (on 7/31/10 8:42 PM):
> Interesting question. It seems so natural that I wondered if I hadn't
> missed a flag in the definition of the clip-path attribute that might
> not do exactly that, but if it is there I don't see it.
>
> But your reason for not using a mask isn't clear. Last I checked,
> this example works just fine in Chrome and Safari:
>
>   fill="white"/>  fill="black"/> 
>
>  xlink:href='http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/thesoul2.jpg'
> y="110" x="35%" width="35%" height="160" mask="url(#Ma)"/>
>
> The image is clipped to the opposite of the ellipse.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> David
>
>
> - Original Message - From: iliribur To:
> svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 7:05 AM
> Subject: [svg-developers] HOWTO: opposite clip
>
> Hi.
>
> I want to do opposite clipping. Everything outside clipping path
> should be visible. Masking is excluded here, as it is not supported
> yet by the WebKit.
>
> I can add shape covering whole drawing area to the clipping path, but
> reversing coordinates. Problem is: duplicated paths, transformation
> calculating twice same coordinates + reversed coordinates for
> clipping path.
>
> Is it possible to use same path for drawing and clipping, but
> clipping will do opposite? I'm developing game where upper layer
> should mask lower layer to achieve better performance.
>
> For example, parallax effect drawing front to back, where upper layer
> will mask lower layer.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>





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Re: [svg-developers] SVG 1.1 (Second Edition) Specification in PDF?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Robert-

Robert Schwalbe wrote (on 7/18/10 12:15 PM):
> Is the SVG 1.1 (Second Edition) Specification available as a PDF file?
>
> I am aware of the W3C specification (html) at:
>
>   http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-SVG11-20100622/
>
> but I've been searching for the pdf equivalent for some time time to
> no avail. Having to purchase a copy would also be acceptable.

We can make a PDF version of the specification, once we are in Proposed 
Recommendation phase and it's more stable.  That's going to be a few 
months, though.  Do you need it sooner than that?

Regards-
-Doug




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[svg-developers] Re: SVG-in-Daisy

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Guys-

As one of the list moderators, I have tried to stop this.  I've looked
through the subscriber list for a clue as to how this is getting
forwarded, but nothing obvious was there.  I have asked the SVG-in-Daisy
moderators to look into the problem several times, but they have no idea
what's going on, either.  I've explained to them how disruptive this is
to our community, but they don't seem to know how to stop it.

If anyone has any suggestion what else I could do to solve it, I'm all
ears.  It really annoys me too.

I'm not so impressed with the Yahoo list service that I wouldn't be
willing to shift to a different list server, which would solve that
problem.  We could even attempt to migrate the list archives, for
continuity's sake.  What would people think of that?

Regards-
-Doug

Bradley Neuberg wrote (on 1/16/09 9:25 PM):
> +1 on fixing this. The Lyris ListManager bounce emails are confusing and
> should stop.
> 
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 1:32 AM, Christophe Strobbe <
> christophe.stro...@esat.kuleuven.be> wrote:
> 
>>   Hi,
>>
>> I contacted the Daisy consortium and they think that the Yahoo group
>> may have been set up to echo posts to the DAISY
>> list. Any member of the Yahoo group who is not on the DAISY list
>> would get the message from "Lyris ListManager".
>> I don't know who moderates this list, but could they please check how
>> our messages get relayed to SVG-in-Daisy?
>>
>> This issue has been commented on before, e.g.:
>> * ,
>> * ,
>> * .
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Christophe
>>
>> --
>> Christophe Strobbe
>> K.U.Leuven - Dept. of Electrical Engineering - SCD
>> Research Group on Document Architectures
>> Kasteelpark Arenberg 10 bus 2442
>> B-3001 Leuven-Heverlee
>> BELGIUM
>> tel: +32 16 32 85 51
>> http://www.docarch.be/
>> ---
>> Please don't invite me to LinkedIn, Facebook, Quechup or other
>> "social networks". You may have agreed to their "privacy policy", but
>> I haven't.
>>
>> Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm




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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Firefox2 vs Firefox3 (code)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Samy-

Samuel Dagan wrote (on 12/16/08 3:27 PM):
> 
> Just by a superficial look on your code, you better change: 
> fill = symbole.getAttribute("fill");
> with : 
> fill = symbole.getAttributeNS(null,"fill");
> (Look at http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/ )
> 
> Hope that this will do the job.

Having been guilty of propagating this myth myself, I have to state that
this is not at all important, and is not the cause of any error.  If you
aren't using namespaces (like XLink), you don't need to use
getAttributeNS... getAttribute works just as well with the null
namespace, so the code is correct as it stands.

Julie, I would recommend that you strip down the code to a minimal test
case that demonstrates exactly what the error is.  You can you the
Firefox error console, or a debugging extension, to figure out where
that is.

Regards-
-Doug



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Re: [svg-developers] Interesting claim about Silverlight

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

Brilliantly, hilariously written.  You should repost this in a blog for
wider exposure and posterity.

Regards-
-Doug

ddailey wrote (on 10/10/08 9:54 PM):
> I noticed tonight that the number of hits returned by Google to a
> search of "Silverlight" now slightly exceeds the number for "SVG"
> (16.3 million to 16.0 million in my search from the Eastern US using
> IE for Windows)[1].
> 
> So I followed up with a bit of reading on Silverlight in
> Wikipedia[2]. In Wikipedia's collective evolution toward making
> arguments "balanced," I noticed a) that the first reference to SVG in
> that article appears, to my thinking, just a little bit late for
> something which is, in fact, so directly derived from an open
> standard [3] and b) that when SVG is finally mentioned (rather near
> the end of the article), one person is cited as denouncing
> Microsoft's "ignoring of open standards" Another person is cited with
> a rather interesting contrasting argument I had never heard before.
> To paraphrase comments attributed to David Betz a .Net specialist, 
> "Microsoft would have altered the SVG specification to integrate it
> with .NET, rather than the reverse. Consequently, he thinks the
> 'choice by Microsoft to use XAML over SVG, served to retain the SVG
> standard by not adding proprietary technology [to SVG]'. " Hmmm... I
> thought; perhaps Microsoft has been supporting standards after all.
> They have chosen not to adopt them and thence spared us from
> inevitably ruining them. What a curious perspective. I am still
> trying to reason it all out.
> 
> The entire neural activity these strange thoughts engendered was just
> enough to make me want to read a little further. Mr. Betz's 2007
> "article" [4][5] begins with a most interesting claim: "Recently
> there have been comments floating around the internet and around
> conferences that Microsoft's Silverlight needlessly uses XAML as its
> mark up language where it should have used SVG (Scalable Vector
> Graphics). The argument here is based on the idea that since SVG is a
> vector technology accepted in all web browsers except IE, Microsoft
> should have used it instead of XAML and then simply added support for
> SVG to IE. While this seams to some to be a valid criticism and a
> good point to some of the web standards world, it is absolutely
> groundless and carries no weight."
> 
> Aha! There you have it web standards world! While your criticism may
> appear valid, "it is absolutely groundless and carries no weight." 
> "it is absolutely groundless and carries no weight." "it is
> absolutely groundless and carries no weight." Such amazing language!
> Such certainty! Such absolute candor and fearlessness! A more careful
> scholar might tend to qualify one's writing with the occasional
> "maybe", "might", "perhaps" or even "possibly." And it this person
> who has written the final word on Silverlight v standards in a
> Wikipedia article that has been nominated as "good"?[6]  Oh my! poor
> Wikipedia! We had such hopes for the public encyclopedia. It will now
> have to abandon its good work with SVG and use Silverlight and go
> bankrupt and then only good things can be said about Silverlight. But
> how else could any argument against such certainty ever be expected
> to end? Certainty MUST always have the last word in an argument with
> uncertainty. (or must it? I confess I don't really know).
> 
> We may clearly deduce from this final sentence, without the slightest
> bit of extrapolation, I think, that some in the web standards world
> must also, therefore, carry no weight. Clearly, if such people
> espouse such groundless notions they must be weightless!  It is a
> rare idea that is labeled "heavy" in these days of lackadaisical
> profundity and six-pack wisdom, so is it not to be expected that a
> certain amount of weightlessness might infect our conversations,
> allowing us to float a bit from the well-grounded, established truths
> of positivism and certainty?[7]
> 
> I was wondering if any of us fluent in Wikification might be tempted
> to write a brief rebuttal of this apparent absurdity, simply to help
> the public encyclopedia regain a bit of credibility on the topic. If
> nothing else, I suppose, someone should add a little note to the
> Wikipedia article that mentions that someone in the web standards
> world who does seem to carry some weight [8], has in fact made public
> statements contrary to Mr. Betz's conclusion.
> 
> It was just all so bizarre, I had to share.
> 
> DD
> 
> [1] I noticed in Germany that Google numbers are different than in
> the US and noticed also that numbers differ depending what browser
> you use. [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silverlight [3] I wondered
> if an open standards organization might, in the future, become
> tempted to enforce a copyright on its standard that prevents so
> blatant a derivative artwork, in violation of the Berne treaty on
> copyright. I wonder That would be more fun than either App

Re: [svg-developers] Feedback Request: Difference Between Scroll and Pan?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

Please see this thread for details on the discussion so far:
  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0339.html

Regards-
-Doug

Doug Schepers wrote (on 9/19/08 2:58 PM):
> Hi, SVG Community-
> 
> Based on feedback from browser vendors, and following some
> implementations, the SVG WG is considering changing the way SVG handles
> the 'overflow' property on the SVG root.  This has implications on
> whether scrollbars would appear for SVGs.  Clearly, sometimes this is
> desirable, but other times it may not be.  The SVG WG is seeking author
> feedback on this issue, before we make a decision.
> 
> If you are interested in this topic, please read this thread:
> 
>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0013.html
> 
> This will affect how browsers handle SVG 1.1 content, so please do let
> us know if this impacts you (positively or negatively).
> 
> If possible, please send comments to the SVG public list, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Regards-
> -Doug Schepers
> W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs



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Re: [svg-developers] problems with firefox

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Fulio-

Please see:
  http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/#namespace-binding

Regards-
-Doug

Fulio Pen wrote (on 9/22/08 3:01 PM):
> When opening following files with IE and Opera, the renderings look good: 
> 
>  http://www.pinyinology.com/test/hanzicode.svg
> http://www.pinyinology.com/test/hanzicode.html
> 
> But when opening them with FF, I alway got following error message:  
> 
> XML Parsing Error: prefix not bound to a namespace
> Location: file:///G:/arbitrary/hanzi/treeHanzi.svg
> Line Number 88, Column 1:
> ^
> or: 
> 
> XML Parsing Error: prefix not bound to a namespace
> Location: http://www.pinyinology.com/test/hanzicode.svg
> Line Number 95, Column 1: style='stroke:black;' />
> etc. 
> 
> Numerous  and  elements are used in the file.  Obiviously the 
> problems are caused by the  element. But I cannot see where I did wrong. 
>  Thanks for help. 
> 
> fulio pen
> 



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Re: [svg-developers] Feedback Request: Difference Between Scroll and Pan?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Folks-

Sorry about that... the original post was to the old member-only SVG
list, and I didn't notice that it wasn't posted to the new
publicly-viewable list.  I'll post a new link soon.

Thanks-
-Doug

Doug Schepers wrote (on 9/19/08 2:58 PM):
> Hi, SVG Community-
> 
> Based on feedback from browser vendors, and following some
> implementations, the SVG WG is considering changing the way SVG handles
> the 'overflow' property on the SVG root.  This has implications on
> whether scrollbars would appear for SVGs.  Clearly, sometimes this is
> desirable, but other times it may not be.  The SVG WG is seeking author
> feedback on this issue, before we make a decision.
> 
> If you are interested in this topic, please read this thread:
> 
>  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0013.html
> 
> This will affect how browsers handle SVG 1.1 content, so please do let
> us know if this impacts you (positively or negatively).
> 
> If possible, please send comments to the SVG public list, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Regards-
> -Doug Schepers
> W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs



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[svg-developers] Feedback Request: Difference Between Scroll and Pan?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

Based on feedback from browser vendors, and following some
implementations, the SVG WG is considering changing the way SVG handles
the 'overflow' property on the SVG root.  This has implications on
whether scrollbars would appear for SVGs.  Clearly, sometimes this is
desirable, but other times it may not be.  The SVG WG is seeking author
feedback on this issue, before we make a decision.

If you are interested in this topic, please read this thread:

 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0013.html

This will affect how browsers handle SVG 1.1 content, so please do let
us know if this impacts you (positively or negatively).

If possible, please send comments to the SVG public list, [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Team Contact, SVG and WebApps WGs





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Re: [svg-developers] Getting Text String by Mouse Click

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Rashid-

Rashid Mahmood Akhter wrote (on 8/10/08 2:02 AM):
> 
> I am trying to get the text string from an svg document whenit is 
> clicked by the mouse. I can get other attributes of text but I no luck 
> with the text string.
> 
> Anybody has done this and share the code.

  http://www.w3.org/2000/svg";>


This is a string.
  


Hope that helps-
-Doug



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Re: [svg-developers] svg file extension?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Owen-

Owen Corpening wrote (on 8/2/08 5:33 PM):
> If I have a proper svg file drawing one line saved as a .svg file, 
> it draws (in firefox3), but rename it .html it does not. Is this 
> "as designed"?

As Robert described, it will render in some browsers if you use the 
".xhtml" extension.  The SVG spec recommends the use of the ".svg" 
extension, and some user agents may not render (or open) files with 
another extension.

I'm curious as to your use case... why do you want/need to serve it as 
XHTML?

Regards-
-Doug



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Re: [svg-developers] TextNode

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Tak-

Cameron McCormack wrote (on 7/19/08 7:57 AM):
> 
> takpoli:
>> To display a text, we place a string "x2y2" into a TextNode by:
>> 
>> td = document.createTextNode("x2y2")
>> 
>> and link it as the first child of a text object.  How can we get back 
>> the string from td?  Is there some utility can do that for us?
> 
> Yes you can use the ‘nodeValue’ or ‘data’ property of the Text object:
> 
>   var textElement = document.createElementNS(SVGNS, "text");
>   td = document.createTextNode("x2y2");
>   textElement.appendChild(td);
>   …
>   alert(textElement.firstChild.nodeValue);  // alerts "x2y2"
> 
> See:
> 
>   http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-F68D080
>   http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Core/core.html#ID-72AB8359

Also, note that you can do the same for the variable 'td', regardless of 
whether it's been inserted in the document yet:

   var td = document.createTextNode("x2y2")
   alert( td.nodeValue );  // alerts "x2y2"

Regards-
-Doug



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Re: [svg-developers] Create additive behavior on key press event

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote (on 1/17/08 4:52 PM):
> 
> unfortunately SVG1.1 doesn't support keyboard events**.

That's not quite accurate.  SVG1.1 doesn't *specify* keyboard events, but
neither does it "not support" them.  It leaves it up to the User Agent
(the browser) as to how they are implemented.

The references to access-key in SVG1.1 (derived from SMIL) do assume 
some key events, but many browsers at the time had poor key event 
support, especially in SVG.  That's improving.

We're also trying to get DOM3 Key Events finalized.

Regards-
-Doug



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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Heads Up for SVG Open 2008!

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, All-

I'm a dope.  I said September when I meant August (as Andreas corrects 
me here).  Sorry for the misinformation.

Regards-
-Doug

Andreas Neumann wrote (on 1/4/08 3:11 AM):
> Hi Doug and others,
> 
> thanks for the pre-announcement.
> 
> The conference will be in Nuremberg, Germany and the date will be the 
> last week of August.
> 
> More information soon on the SVG Open website.
> 
> I'll encourage past and potential SVG Open attendees to provide 
> feedback and input on what they want to see/hear at the SVG Open 
> conference, similar to David Daileys mail from today.
> 
> Thanks,
> Andreas
> 
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Doug Schepers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi, SVG Community-
>> 
>> At SVG Open 2007, we promised to announce preparations for SVG Open 
> 2008
>> in late December or early January.  I thought I would kick off the 
> New
>> Year with an informal preliminary call for papers... it's still 2007
>> where I'm writing. :)
>> 
>> I don't want to spoil the official announcement, which will follow
>> within a couple weeks, but the organizer has been chosen, early 
> sponsors
>> found, a location determined (hint: it's somewhere in Europe), and a
>> timeframe decided (sometime in late September, as usual).
>> 
>> The SVG Open 2008 site will be officially open for business by
>> mid-January, but you can get started on your papers now.  For those 
> of
>> you who plan to present or attend, it would be interesting to hear
>> feedback about what you want to see in the conference.  The 
> presentation
>> tracks are not yet decided, so there's time for you to chime in.
>> 
>> I look forward to seeing some of you there, and to helping review 
> your
>> presentations.
>> 
>> Happy New Year!
>> 
>> Best Regards-
>> -Doug Schepers
>> W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI
>>



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Re: [svg-developers] Converting SVG to PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Leonard-

Leonard Rosenthol wrote (on 12/26/07 10:28 PM):
> On 12/20/07, Erik Dahlström <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Not sure you have to convert the SVG:s. A quick search for "pdf embed svg"
>> gives you a couple of examples
>
>  Some of other methods were dropped by Adobe in Acrobat 7, and the
> rest in Acrobat 8.1.  Use of these methods is officially deprecated in
> the version of the PDF Reference that is now under the auspices of the
> ISO.

Thanks for the information; it's good for developers have a clear
message about what will and will not work.  Do you have a reference to
the list of deprecated features?  For instance, can authors still embed
static SVG?

Can you provide any insight into why this functionality was dropped?  It
did work at one point, and you seem to imply dynamic, interactive
features still work with Flash in PDF, so it doesn't seem the answer is
technical... is there any way to convince Adobe to put this
functionality back in?  Perhaps the next version of the ISO spec could
have it included again?

It's very disappointing that Adobe has removed support for features
which they were chiefly responsible for putting in SVG in the first place.


Regards-
-Doug



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[svg-developers] Heads Up for SVG Open 2008!

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

At SVG Open 2007, we promised to announce preparations for SVG Open 2008
in late December or early January.  I thought I would kick off the New
Year with an informal preliminary call for papers... it's still 2007
where I'm writing. :)

I don't want to spoil the official announcement, which will follow
within a couple weeks, but the organizer has been chosen, early sponsors
found, a location determined (hint: it's somewhere in Europe), and a
timeframe decided (sometime in late September, as usual).

The SVG Open 2008 site will be officially open for business by
mid-January, but you can get started on your papers now.  For those of
you who plan to present or attend, it would be interesting to hear
feedback about what you want to see in the conference.  The presentation
tracks are not yet decided, so there's time for you to chime in.

I look forward to seeing some of you there, and to helping review your
presentations.

Happy New Year!

Best Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI



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Re: [svg-developers] Converting SVG to PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Richard-

Richard Pearman wrote (on 12/19/07 1:50 PM):
> Hi,
> 
> As you may know I do a web comic, mostly in SVG.  I've recently found a 
> site called Wowio (I think) which pays you for having people download 
> your books in PDF and some web comic creators are using it.  The ideal 
> thing would be to simply convert my SVG files into PDF files, while 
> preserving the interactivity and animation.  (A second option would be 
> to produce print friendly versions of my comics in PDF but this would 
> be much more work.)  However I don't own the Adobe Acrobat program and 
> I don't want to fork out the money for it if it won't do the job or 
> there's a cheaper way.  I know that a lot of the functions of ASV 6 
> were in the Acrobat viewer but I'm hazy on the details or even if PDF 
> still has SVG support.  Is there some cheaper PDF authoring program 
> which would be as good or better than Adobe Acrobat?

Here's a partial list of PDF-to-SVG convertors:

http://wiki.svg.org/Other_Implementations#PDF_to_SVG

Hope that helps-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] how to access param values

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Zafar-

This is the sort of thing that's covered in the CDF Working Group's new 
WICD specs.  I've got an example on my site. [1]

To pass parameters to an SVG, use the  element with child 
 elements. Each  element should have name/value pairs with 
the 'name' and 'value' attributes; these will be exposed to the embedded 
SVG document. The actual values are not necessarily specified, and can 
be arbitrary strings, though there are a few formal parameter 
name/values. An example of the HTML markup is:







The code for the script to access these parameterized values in the 
embedded SVG might look like this:

var params = 
document.defaultView.frameElement.getElementsByTagName('param');
for ( var i = 0, iLen = params.length; iLen > i; i++ )
{
var eachParam = params[ i ];
var name = eachParam.getAttribute( 'name' );
var value = eachParam.getAttribute( 'value' );
//do something here with the values;
}

My bank account number is... ;)


[1] http://www.schepers.cc/examples/pass-params.html


Regards-
-Doug

ztminhas wrote (on 11/6/2007 7:02 AM):
> Hi,
> 
> I have to figure out something pretty soon so I would appreciate your
> assistance. I have a SVG file which needs to display some data from a
> server or a local server side variable, or from a java script variable.
> I would like to know if it is possible to use the param tag to
> accomplish this:
> 
> 
>  width="599px" height="55px">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> where the values in the param tag could indicate some kind of values
> that the svg could read, in manner very similar to how an applet can
> read param values.
> 
> If there is a way to accomplish this, could you please let me know? I am
> even willing to pay for the help, so send me your account numbers! :-)
> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Zafar T Minhas
> 
> 



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Re: [svg-developers] I cannot see my own posting

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Fulio-

I suspect the problem may be on your end.  I've seen several posts by 
you, and your account shows that you should be receiving individual 
emails.  Perhaps you need to update your email address on your account?

Your messages do seem to be getting through, as you can see on the Yahoo 
list page:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/messages

Regards-
-Doug

Fulio Pen wrote (on 10/15/2007 4:11 PM):
> I wish the group leader could see this message.  I left this group
> for a couple of days, and came back about 20 hours ago.  After seeing
> postings by other members in my email account, I sent a message to
> the list.  Not receiving it in my own email account after a few
> hours, I sent it again, believing the first one must not have been
> posted.  But so far I've seen neither of the postings in my account.
> .
> 
> However, a response was sent to my email account about half an hour
> ago.  This means that my message must have appeared on the list at
> least once.   Other members have seen it..  It was just not mailed
> back to me.
> 
> I wish this problem can be solved soon, to let me see my own postings
> and those by others. If you've seen my posting twice, I apologize for
> the redundancy.
> 
> Fulio




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Re: [svg-developers] IE7 to FireFox

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Julie-

jgfa92004 wrote (on 10/7/2007 5:18 AM):
>
> I have svg files that can be opened only with IE7. Is there a document 
> that describe how to make a svg file compatible with the dom 
> specifications.

Jonathan Watt wrote some SVG authoring guidelines for this very purpose. 
  They should help you out with the most common problems:

http://jwatt.org/svg/authoring/


Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] SVG Open 2008

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, David-

David Dailey wrote (on 10/3/2007 10:41 AM):
> Does anyone yet know when or where this is likely to happen?
> 
> The cycle of funding here makes it easier to start planning early.

We recognize that late announcement makes it difficult for attendance 
(for presenters and audience alike).

We are planning SVG Open 2008 right now, and we will be making a Call 
for Participation before the end of the year, and will give notification 
of acceptance soon after.

The conference will be in Europe, in the Autumn.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] event listeners in svg tiny

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, shydisturbedboy-

shydisturbedboy wrote (on 9/29/2007 6:13 AM):
> do i have to register all the elements in the svg? i tried adding
> event listeners on the root element but i can't "click" on an
> element.. i can only access the root element.. how can register all
> the elements all at once?

What user agent (browser) are you using?  Do you have sample code for us 
to help you with?

Regards-
-Doug


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[svg-developers] SVG 1.2 Tiny Test Suite

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, SVG Community-

The SVG Working Group is pleased to announce the beta version of the SVG 
1.2 Tiny Test Suite and the corresponding interim Implementation report. 
  Both are available from the Test Suite Overview page [1], which is 
linked from the SVG home page [2].  This represents a great deal of work 
from the SVG WG over the last year and a half, and will be essential to 
multiple interoperable implementations, and is a necessary step for SVG 
1.2 Tiny to move toward Recommendation status.  This paves the way for 
more rapid future progress.

The test suite, at this point, contains 408 certified tests, and another 
hundred or so that we are still reviewing and approving.  Additionally, 
we will continue to create new tests.  We are also putting into place a 
way for the public (especially other implementors) to submit test cases, 
which we will approve and integrate as applicable (more about this soon).

The interim implementation report will be updated as an official report 
after the finished version of the test suite is published (though the 
test suite is anticipated to be an ongoing work).  Already, there is a 
lot of green for each feature.

I would like to personally thank each member of the SVG Working Group 
for their hard work in delivering this test suite, and to the vendors 
for implementing the features and working together to move SVG forward.

As usual, any bugs can be reported via our public issue tracker [3], or 
sent to this list.  Thanks for any feedback!

[1] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/
[2] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
[3] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/feedback.html

Regards-
-Doug Schepers
W3C Staff Contact, SVG, CDF, and WebAPI



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Re: [svg-developers] node repositioning..

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Dave-

dave wrote:
>  Does SVG 1.2 support node repositioning in a graph?

This could mean a lot of different things.  I suspect that you're asking 
SVG 1.2 support relative positioning, such that dragging a particular 
shape with connected lines will also reposition that end of the lines. 
There is nothing in SVG Tiny 1.2 to do that, but Cameron McCormack is 
possibly working on a constraints module for SVG Full 1.2 that can 
accomplish that, among many other things.  Of course, it's possible to 
do it in script now.

If you mean something different, please explain in more detail.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] can you display/embed a Flash in SVG?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, raytigres-

raytigres wrote:
> I have tried embedding a Flash with both  and  tags,
> with and without TYPE="application/x-shockwave-flash".

SVG doesn't have an  element, so that wouldn't work anywhere 
(unless you used it in a  element, though that's not very 
dependable).  SVG Tiny 1.2 has the  element for referencing 
external animation file, so it's conceivable that it would work in some 
viewer that supports both.


> ASV3 doesn't complain but it doesn't work either. Is it possible?

I don't know of any SVG viewer that supports this.  This is not 
prohibited by the spec, so it's theoretically possible, but in practice 
I find it unlikely that it would ever work.  There have been 
proof-of-concept projects to do the reverse, render SVG in Flash (using 
DENG, IIRC).

What you could try is referencing both the SVG and the Flash file in an 
HTML file, and using CSS to position the Flash such that it overlays the 
SVG.  I don't know if this would work or if it would suit your purposes, 
but if you really need it, it's worth a shot.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Undermining SVG (was: What alternatives to ASV for IE6/7 ?)

[Doug Schepers]

H, Paul-

I think Steven's got a pretty sane assessment here.  In reality, Adobe 
haven't truly "supported" ASV for years.  As I've said before on this 
list, Renesis is gearing up to be the active replacement for ASV, and 
while it still has a way to go, it is making good progress.

Because you're using "inline SVG" (via data islands), your options are a 
little limited if you want to stay in IE.  None of the Java players will 
do that.  As Steven says, ASV isn't going away, so until Renesis works 
for you (which bug reports would help), I think ASV is still a safe bet.

Stephen Quintero wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> First, while support for ASV will end as of 2008, I understand the existing
> plug-in will continue to be supplied by Adobe indefinitely.  Also, the
> current stable release of ASV seems (to me) as good or better than the
> developing native support.  So you may be in less of a crunch than you
> think.  Unless you are pushing the limits of the SVG implementation in ASV.
> 
> It looks as if the browser vector graphics market is up in the air.  SVG or
> Flash or SilverLight or whatnext.  What basket do you put your eggs in?
> Since you already have a mature application in SVG, you might wait to see
> how it all shakes out.
> 
> I also would like to see Renesis mature.  I tried it on my app, which runs
> happily under ASV and Firefox, but it was confused.  Or maybe I am!

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Undermining SVG

[Doug Schepers]

Whoah there, Turbo!  You seem to be racing to some really strange 
reactions.  Enough with the conspiracy theories and ad hominem attacks.

Paul asked a pretty straightforward question.  With Microsoft, Adobe, 
and Sun have all stepping up their efforts in similar spaces to SVG, and 
Adobe strategically backing down on their support for SVG, there's some 
natural uncertainty among people using SVG commercially.  I doubt 
ranting will resolve their concerns, or add any credibility to SVG.

As to memberships, you let the moderators take care of that.  Sheesh.

Regards-
-Doug

Domenico Strazzullo wrote:
> Veiko,
> 
> Chances are that this Paul Wirdnam will not reply. These posts are 
> probably the work of some marketing guys from Microsoft/others: 
> dramatic topic subject/question with self response, a "Please help!" 
> in place of signature from somebody who seems quite competent, etc. 
> They are tentatives of intoxication. I'll be more than happy to be 
> contradicted by Paul Wirdnam' reply. This list has often been exposed 
> to talent drainage but at this moment it seems that some would like 
> to give it a fatal blow. Again, I hope this is only paranoia, but
> lately there has been a recrudescence of posts that try to undermine 
> SVG and there's no way that a member can check if the author of a
> suspicious post is a genuine member since unfortunately he or she 
> doesn't have access anymore to the members' list. I wonder why? In 
> this circumstance there is too much burden on the moderators (Doug, 
> how many owners/moderators left?), while some members can take part 
> of the load. We can't remember the names of all the members so, can 
> we please gain back the access to the list's information?



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Re: [svg-developers] Webkit, SVG and Apollo

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Chaals-

Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 12:50:15 +0200, Domenico Strazzullo  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Yesterday I spoke with an Adobe person and to the direct question "...
>> Did you disable SVG in Webkit for Apollo?" I got this direct
>> answer "... We did disable it but we're trying to put it back, although
>> it's difficult to keep everything" [citation].
> 
> In response to a direct question at Xtech someone from Adobe gave exactly  
> the opposite answer. 

What was the response at XTech?  That they didn't disable it, or that 
they aren't trying to put it back?


> Maybe testing it a bit would be more reliable than  
> asking the company?

Agreed.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Browser plugins

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Lenny-

Lenny wrote:
> Besides Adobe's SVGViewer.exe, what else is out there?
> 
> I looked in the links section of the website and found a bunch of
> developer and conversion tools, but nothing for the client side.

By "the website", I assume you mean wiki.svg.org?  You may have been 
looking at the wrong page.  A (partial) list is here:

http://wiki.svg.org/Viewer_Implementations

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Moderated Status and End of Thread

[Doug Schepers]

Whatever.

"not everyone can express their concerns as well as me"... I guess you 
figured a joke would lighten the mood?


~:'' ありがとうございました。 wrote:
> Doug,
> 
> once again I feel you are taking yourself, the list, its members and  
> SVG far too seriously.
> 
> get a life and live a little. there's plenty wrong with SVG and the  
> W3C process.
> 
> it may well be that not everyone can express their concerns as well  
> as me, but honestly you must have something better to do than  
> moderate flames.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jonathan Chetwynd



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[svg-developers] Moderated Status and End of Thread (was: OT)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Geoffrey-

You've really pushed my patience to the edge.

This list is for questions about SVG development.  It's not a forum for 
you to rant against SVG or promote other technologies.  As I said 
before, there are constructive ways to have such conversations, but you 
are willfully avoiding them.

Anyone who has truly been reading this list for the past 3 years, 2 
years, 1 year, 6 months, 3 months, or even a single month cannot help 
but to see the "SVG is dead" permathread (at least one of which was 
started by you), including copious emails regarding the foundering 
status of the Adobe plug-in.  I would hardly describe the reaction on 
this list as "rosy".  One need only to search through the archives to 
see thread after thread devoted to this.  And yet somehow, doomsayers 
aside, SVG is still becoming more widely implemented, and those 
implementations are steadily improving.

This list is never going to advocate transition to some other technology 
(unless SVG is simply not suitable for the task at hand, as is sometimes 
the case).  If ever SVG fails, if "the market decides" there is no room 
for a cross-platform, open-standards vector graphics language, this list 
will simply close.  You seem to have already found your next passion, 
and if you are not interested in SVG, I suggest this may no longer be 
the list for you.

You consider the time you have spent on SVG wasted; similarly, I 
consider the time I have spent reading and replying to your inflammatory 
messages a waste of my time.  I suspect that you have gotten more out of 
learning SVG than the rest of us have gotten from the superficial 
contents of your recent messages.  I politely asked you to 
self-moderate, which you agreed to do; you have not honored your 
promise, and I have thus set your posting privileges to "moderated" 
status.  If you have something constructive to say, I will allow the 
post to go through.

Believe me, I was very reluctant to do this.  You are only the 2nd 
person I've had to take such measures with (and the first was because of 
extremely foul language).  But I reviewed your posting history, and 
while I do believe that participated in this group in good faith in the 
past, this thread does not reflect that good faith.

I'm sure you're simply venting your frustration at what is admittedly a 
slow process (as all open standards are).  I think it will ultimately be 
worth it, and I find SVG quite usable today.  If you don't agree, I wish 
you well with whatever technology you think better suits your needs.

To everyone else, I apologize for taking this action.  I truly hate to 
be forced to moderate someone, but I feel that this was the only way to 
get this list back on track.

Regards-
-Doug

Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
> The lack of support in IE, and the fact that each implementation & browser
> that supports SVG has different bugs and flaws that you have to work around,
> different code to load the SVG objects, etc. is why I cannot justify any
> more work in SVG for my projects.
> 
>  
> 
> I want my implementations to be the same regardless of platform. I'm pretty
> sure any movement going on in SVG is too little too late. Even if
> Silverlight is not the way to go, it is going to be something else. 
> 
>  
> 
> I built a SVG project and put several months of work into it before it
> occurred to me that the Adobe SVG plugin had not been updated for years -
> meaning Adobe had pretty much abandoned it. You would have never guessed
> this from the dialog here on this list. The sky is blue, everything is rosy;
> there are no problems with SVG. Nothing to see here.
> 
> 
> Adobe could rectify the lack of SVG support in IE7 quite easily by updating
> the plugin, but they obviously prefer not to advance this technology any
> further. 
> 
>  
> 
> And then there is the lousy state of all of the open source SVG efforts that
> are mostly way behind the antique Adobe plugin. At the current rate of
> progress it will be at least two more years before all of the various
> browsers will have most of the SVG features working in a consistent manner.
> 
>  
> 
> I am a little disconcerted that we are not going to get any help from this
> list to migrate to whatever succeeds SVG. There is nothing wrong with the
> list evolving along with the technology. For example, DSLreports becomes
> BroadbandReports and keeps on helping people with broadband issues rather
> than staying stuck on one small thing.
> 
>  
> 
> The next wave of the internet will be come from some sort of new graphical
> rendering language. I had hoped it would be SVG, but it looks dead. Please
> don't shoot the messengers.
> 
>  
> 
> In any case I am sick and tired of the limitations of HTML, shackled by
> glacially slow standards progress and reliance on inefficient bitmapped
> graphics. Something more is needed.
> 


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Re: [svg-developers] OT

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Stephen-

I think you have a fair question and I wish I were more informed about 
the technical details of Silverlight to answer you more intelligently; 
learning more about Silverlight is definitely something on my short list 
(embrace and extend, anyone?).

But I think I'm in a position to answer your concerns about SVG.

Stephen Quintero wrote:
> 
> I guess it's a sore spot.  Since I asked the original question, I'll put in
> my last 2 cents.
> 
> I've more than a 1,000 hours invested in a commercial tool which relies
> heavily on SVG (and it's in alpha).  It is all built with open standards
> tech.  It works (though not identically in all browsers and not at all in
> Safari).

WebKit is putting serious effort into improving its SVG implementation, 
to the point that Apple has recently joined the SVG Working Group.  I 
would expect to see marked improvement in Safari within the year (no 
insider information, I just know from the trades that lots of Apple 
resources have been diverted to push out other Apple products).


> If I worked in academia or government that would be then end of it - I could
> just dictate, "if you want to use it then do this,  if not too bad".  But
> really, in my circumstances, it's too bad for me.
> 
> I would, of course, like something users trust, works reliably in different
> browser/OS combinations and is robust.  I would like to stay with SVG
> because of my investment, because it is open standard, etc.  At this point,
> SVG is like early HTML - you have to code for different browsers and limit
> your functionality, but it does fabulous things.  If it were maturing driven
> by user demand and killer apps, that would be just fine.  But I have this
> nagging feeling I need to be prepared in case it is eaten by Godzilla.

SVG is not going away.  You can put that fear to rest.  If you are 
worried about support in IE, that's an open question.

I am hoping that there is still interest in the IE team to implement 
SVG; they are a separate division from the Silverlight team, and they 
recently came back to the standards table with what seems to be good 
will.  As a strategic move, they could even benefit from implementing 
SVG; it is very similar to Silverlight (hmmm wonder why?), more so 
than Flash, and may help shift vector technologies in that direction. 
It would be a good PR move, and provide an open alternative for those 
that need or desire that.  And if the pie is split 3 ways instead of 2, 
that will cut in Silverlight's favor.

But let's assume that IE doesn't implement SVG natively.  There are 
several SVG implementations under active development, not the least of 
which is the ever-improving Renesis player, which aim to provide 
advanced support for SVG in IE (if only as a plug-in... which, remember, 
is how Silverlight is distributed).

As a financial concern, it's prudent of you to investigate if 
Silverlight will also work for you (if only as a backup plan); I suspect 
the conversion will not be profound, but you'll have to research that 
yourself.


> This is a relevant concern and question for many people who work with SVG,
> hence my post here.  It can even reasonably be considered a technical issue
> with SVG.  If you are riding a horse and it croaks under you, that is a
> technical failure.
> 
> Yes, I hoped to elicit a more thorough and calm response describing the
> limits of functionality of Silverlight by way of comparison.  And even some
> insight into the market and why SVG is here to stay (particularly in IE).
> But, you get what you get.

I suspect most people who are interested in SVG are leary of YAPVF (yet 
another proprietary vector format), and Silverlight is still pretty new. 
  I imagine that there will be more intelligent discussion of the 
subject here in coming months.


> Some rats row, some rats flee the ship, some rats pretend everything is
> okay.  I hope it is.  If it weren't for the abandonment of ASV, I would
> certainly think so.  Given a decent chance, open standards tools have proven
> themselves.  But without ongoing development in IE 6/7, which is 3/4 of the
> market, then there is undoubted concern.

ASV was not the only game in town, and their tepid support ultimately 
did more harm than good to SVG in the latter years.  Lines are 
definitely being drawn in this space, and I expect a lot of movement 
from all related technologies.  There is a commercial drive in SVG, just 
as there is in the others.


> For better or worse, I have to make my software work for Joe and Sally who
> use the internet for web-surfing and shopping.  Not for CS students and
> Linux geeks.

A few years ago, I might have agreed that SVG was academic and more 
purist than practical.  But I see more support and more market relevance 
for it now.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Z T-

Z T Minhas wrote:
 > This is a group dedicate to helping technical issues related
 > to SVG. Moderator please kick these agent provocateurs off
 > the group. I want information about SVG and how i can
 > incorporate such in my applications. I don't want 3rd party
 > fake viral marketers sponsored by some Micro$oft partner
 > telling me about gray-darkness. That is not the point of
 > this group. If you want to do that, get off this group,
 > and make your own yahoo group where you can market all you like.

I appreciate your dedication to SVG, and if I did think that this were a 
case of viral marketers, I would moderate their comments (that is, set 
their posting status to require a review before going to this list) 
until they proved that they were sincere; I don't like the idea of 
kicking anyone off the list.

But I don't think that's what's going on.  I think these are people who 
have a genuine interest and excitement about a different technology, and 
I feel my request for them to self-moderate and stay on-topic is the 
best course.  We're all adults here.

I, for one, don't feel that their assessments of SVG and the market are 
correct.  Silverlight is definitely a danger to the openness of the Web, 
but I don't think it will sound the death knell of SVG.  But listening 
to perspectives on why Silverlight is compelling to them informs us what 
improvements need to be made to SVG.

Ultimately, I think that Silverlight may even be good for SVG.  A rising 
tide raises all ships, and with more than Flash in the Web 
vector-graphics space, I think this entire approach will start to gain 
more currency with serious developers and corporations.  There will be 
those who recognize that it is in their best interest to promote an open 
standard rather than succumb to vendor lock-in.  These large 
organizations will have felt the sting of lock-in before.

When Flash/Apollo and Silverlight clash, it is SVG which wins the long 
game.  Both of those technologies exist only to make a profit for their 
controllers; SVG exists to provide a cross-vendor solution to the same 
problem.  If either one of the commercial vendors feels like their 
technology isn't profitable enough, they will drop it like a hot brick. 
  Smart companies know this.  Meanwhile, SVG will be the open standards 
tortoise to the commercial hares (though we *are* trying to urge the 
tortoise on a little... we're well aware of market pressures :) ).  I 
suspect SVG will always be more pervasive outside the general browser 
than either of the competing technologies, and that is one of its hidden 
strengths.  Inside the browser, SVG is also the only one which is 
natively implemented in any browser, and I think it has staying power.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] OT

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Geoffrey-

I think you may have felt a little stung by comments on this list, but 
as I said, I have no intention of "kicking you off the list".  You are 
welcome to your opinion.  Questions or answers to SVG technical issues 
are welcome here: irrelevant boosting of Silverlight is not.


Geoffrey Swenson wrote:
> SVG is probably a dead duck. I have not wanted to invest any more work in it
> for more than a year. This is not to say that I dislike SVG much at all, but
> the Adobe plugin has a lot of problems, and SVG is nowhere near as
> universally available as Silverlight already is. I gave up when the new
> Mozilla stuff was barely functional, and Opera was even worse. Since IE no
> longer handles SVG, you can continue banging your head on the wall, or just
> make the pragmatic decision and go with Silverlight.

IE never did handle SVG, of course... the Adobe viewer did.  And the 
Renesis player (and others) are closing the gap.  SVG is alive and kicking.

You've made it clear that you don't think much of the Firefox or Opera 
implementations, but I think you're wrong.  Both are good, and both are 
improving.


> Silverlight has hit the ground running hard. It isn't going to do the
> members of this group any good to put their heads in the ground and hope
> that it will go away and that SVG will somehow rise from its longtime
> sickbed.

On the contrary.  SVG has never been more widely supported, and that 
support is improving.  And I think it does do the members of this group 
--and the Web in general-- good to support open standards, though you 
may not understand the benefits (or the dangers of the proprietary 
formats).


> Microsoft has spent their millions developing Silverlight, and it shows. 

You're right, they have... which is (again) why I don't think they need 
any more advertising on this list.


> It is relevant to the more honest and/or pragmatic members of this group, 
> who are going to have to decide how to migrate their code to something that is
> going to be more widely available than SVG.

There may be people who feel the need to, and as I said, I'm sympathetic 
to that market need...  but it's neither impragmatic nor dishonest to 
show integrity in your choice of technology.  The truth is, SVG is 
getting stronger by the day, and your opinion does nothing to change that.


> I could hardly care less about whether it is open-sourced or not. 

I said nothing about open source.  It's open standards that are 
important.  Open standards allow for cross-browser, cross-platform, 
*multi-company* interoperability.


> I just
> don't see how volunteer efforts can find a revenue stream to keep up with
> proprietary code. 

Firefox seems to have presented a good model to prove you wrong.  But 
you're confusing open source with open standards.  Open standards (HTML, 
etc.) made the Web what it is today, when all the proprietary formats 
(as championed by AOL, CompuServe, etc.) tried to keep a stranglehold on 
their own little Web territories.



> I just want a platform for my ideas, and I will pay for
> good tools.

Yes, just as I said: I think the main challenge is the tools.


> Just the rendering speed of Silverlight is something really exciting.
> Ordinary mortals can code really fast complex graphics without having to
> deal with low level graphic details. If SVG could do this (and had a
> well-financed patron behind it) nobody would even care about Silverlight.

I agree that rendering speed is something that most SVG implementations 
could use help on, and they are working on it.  As for a well-financed 
patron... well, again, I think you're dancing with the devil when you 
want one company to rule a technology.


> I am not a lurking Microsoft person, though I have worked there as a
> somewhat resentful permatemp a couple of times. I am perfectly aware that
> Microsoft doesn't always play so nice.

And yet...


> But Silverlight really is kewl. I am honestly very excited about it and I
> will leave it at that.

Great.  I expect not to hear any more from you about it on this list, 
thanks.

Regards-
-Doug


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[svg-developers] OT (was: Have you played with Silverlight?)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Kevin and Geoff, et al-

As owner of the SVG-Developers list, and as a strong supporter for open 
standards, I'm going to ask you politely to stop evangelizing 
Silverlight on SVG-Dev (as I've asked for self-moderation in the past 
regarding Flash).

I have nothing against Silverlight, and it's fine if you want to use it, 
but it's not on-topic for our list; this is a forum for technical 
questions on using SVG.  Silverlight has the weight and financial 
backing of Microsoft behind it; Flash and Apollo both have Adobe's 
backing.  All these proprietary technologies have their own mailing 
lists, so I don't think they need any further advertising on this list.

SVG is growing steadily, and it has market relevance, but open standards 
are already at a huge disadvantage compared to proprietary technologies 
(and not for technical reasons).  I feel that it is important that the 
Web remain open, and part of that is ensuring that no one company 
controls the languages of the Web.

I'm not trying to censor this list, and I'm not going to block any 
posts.  I think that a fair and open discussion of SVG will include some 
comparison to competing technologies.  It's important that SVG grow in 
response to other technologies (as Silverlight derives heavily from 
SVG).  But it irritates me when people on this list recommend abandoning 
SVG, in favor of proprietary competitors.  It's FUD, and it's not polite.

A more constructive activity would be to identify what features of those 
corporate technologies you find compelling, and ask for comparable 
features to be added to SVG on [EMAIL PROTECTED] (the W3C's public SVG 
list, which the SVG WG monitors for feedback).  Also, you can appeal 
directly to browser vendors (or even contribute code, e.g. to Mozilla 
and Batik), and let them know you need particular SVG features (I think 
that the Mozilla Corp could use some encouragement to add resources to 
SVG, for example).

It's always an individual choice whether to do the Right Thing (tm), or 
to let corporate interests take control (and frankly, sometimes you have 
no choice, out of pragmatism); but the sum of those individual choices 
determines the landscape of the Web, and the degree to which it relies 
on open standards.  Sorry if that sounds all preachy, but it's how I 
feel, and why I think SVG is more important than any similar corporate 
equivalent.

If the technical difference were more pronounced, I might feel 
differently.  But for most purposes, SVG is as good as its more 
tightly-controlled cousins.  I think the big difference is in authoring 
tool support, and there is something that can be done about that.

I'm sure you can understand my perspective, and I hope you will honor 
this request.



Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Executing JS calls from objects defined within using Squiggle

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Patrick-

Actually, I'm kinda surprised this works at all in FF and Opera... :)

The 'href' attribute is defined in the XLink specification, and is 
merely referenced by the SVG specification, so it's in the XLink 
namespace.  Therefore, you need to use the 'setAttributeNS' method.

Try this:

http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink';

function changeRect(rectName) {
 var useElem = document.getElementById('useElem');
 useElem.setAttributeNS( xlinkns, 'href', '#' + rectName);
 }

]]>

Regards-
-Doug

Patrick wrote:
> Here is what I have:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2000/svg";
>  xmlns:svg="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg";
>  xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink";
>  width="101" height="101">
> 
> 
> function changeRect(rectName) {
> var useElem = document.getElementById('useElem');
> if (useElem.getAttribute('href') != null) {
> document.getElementById('useElem')
> .setAttribute('href','#' + rectName);
> }
> else if (useElem.getAttribute('xlink:href') != null) {
> document.getElementById('useElem')
> .setAttribute('xlink:href','#' + rectName);
> }
> }
> 
> 
> 
>  stroke="green" fill="green" onclick="changeRect('rect2')" />
>  stroke="red" fill="red" onclick="changeRect('rect1')" />
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This works in FireFox and Opera.  IE never seems to work with
> scripting.  In fact, the reason I even care to use Batik is that I
> want to ensure that I can use this in every browser through an applet.
>  However, this SVG doesn't work in Squiggle.  I played around and
> found that I can put JS calls into the  element, but any of the
> JS calls within the defs won't be run.  I need different objects to
> produce unique results.  Such as this example: both do call
> changeRect(), but each supplies a different name to be used in the
> function.  If I can only make the call from the  element, then I
> cannot specify what to feed the parameters such that it relates to the
> currently displayed object.  If there is a work around for, I would
> like to know.  If not, this renders Batik/Squiggle completely useless
> for me.




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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG support after 1 januar 2009, how further?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Don-

Don XML wrote:
> 
> Opps, Microsoft just announce that they will be doing that
> with Silverlight.  Now, Adobe has killed off SVG support, and thrown 
> their muscle behind Flash.  

No, they're really more focused on Apollo (which is much more than 
Flash).  And it's pretty slick, especially the authoring tool.  And they 
have hordes of loyal creators who will follow them wherever they lead.

By contrast, MS has a loyal following of developers... not content 
creators.  Silverlight will need to build a author base.


> In the end, we (the developers) will win, 
> no matter which one winds up on top.  But, my money is placed firmly 
> behind Microsoft.  It makes sense in my case, and is probably not the 
> bet of choice on this discussion list.  To each their own.  But in the 
> end, we all can win from the competition (well everyone but the W3C).

Sorry, who wins again with proprietary standards?  Authors lose because 
they are locked into a for-pay format.  Users lose because content 
becomes read-only.  We all lose because the Web becomes broken up into 
territories (some of us may be old enough to remember the Internet 
before the Web).  Adobe and Microsoft are both aggressively pursuing DRM 
(Digital "Rights" Management) and would be as happy as pigs in mud if 
they got a sufficient user/author base to lock it all up.

The W3C is the most visionary standards organization I know of.  They 
are heavily invested in pragmatic solutions to real-world problems, and 
are also looking forward to making it accessible to everyone, and to 
keeping it open.  They invest in Semantic Web technologies to work on 
making the Web even more advanced.  They also do stuff that I'm not 
interested in, but that's fine with me.  If W3C is undermined, we all 
lose.  I'm surprised to hear you take such a cynical view.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG support after 1 januar 2009, how further?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Kevgor-

kggsystem wrote:
> Yes, you're right it's just speculation, but it's pretty 
> interesting...
> 
> Here's a post I found from about a year back
> 
> http://blog.codedread.com/archives/2006/06/02/ie72-to-support-svg/
> 
> Here it says "Microsoft publicly stated IE will have core engine 
> support for SVG in IE7.x (most likely 7.2)". This was dated June 2, 
> 2006.
> 
> No particular MS employee was cited in this blog entry but it 
> certainly sounds that way. Those who are interested should read 
> further into the blog. There may be some speculation going on here 
> too.

Far too much speculation.  That turned out to be a wishful-thinking 
rumor... well-meaning, I'm sure, but not based in verifiable fact.  Even 
if someone did say that, plans can always change in a company, but I 
suspect it was a misinterpretation of what was said.

If you read Jeff's follow-up on that, he pretty much debunks it:
 
http://blog.codedread.com/archives/2006/05/04/the-future-of-internet-explorer-and-web-standards/


> Next I see a question asked in the Microsoft forums, dated December 
> 14 2006, which is after the previous post.
> 
> http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=1019248&SiteID=1
> 
> Here we see a Senior Program Manager state in a response to a 
> question about native SVG support in IE: "It's currently too early to 
> announce exact plans at this stage. We are certainly looking into 
> this area though."

Those who don't follow standards trends (the new HTML charter in 
particular) may not know that Microsoft, and in particular, the IE Team, 
have become actively engaged in Web standards for the first time in a 
very long time.  Everything points to their trying to adhere more 
closely to W3C standards... and as part of that, I am sure they are 
considering implementing SVG.  Whether they will do so or not is 
something probably even they don't know.



> So the only thing I can conclude is that the latter statements are 
> less conclusive than the prior ones; in fact somewhat contradicting 
> the earlier announcement of firm support.
> 
> My conclusion at this point is that there is some serious waffling 
> going on and I suspect it's because of two things a) Adobe dropping 
> support for ASV (announced Sept 9, 2006 - subsequent to first post 
> cited above), and b) Emergence of Silverlight (WPF/E). 

The first "public statement" was not accurate; the second is in line 
with their policy on not revealing anything before it's released.  So 
it's neither waffling nor a change of heart.

I think the uncertainty in their response has more to do with limited 
resources on the IE team, and prioritizing.


> But you're absolutely right, it's speculation.

I've talked to several IE guys personally, and they can't say one way or 
the other.  Big companies like that just don't tell tales out of school. 
  I do know that there are other efforts to get SVG into IE, though, so 
I'm not worried.  Still, I'd love for it to be natively supported.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG support after 1 januar 2009, how further?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Kevgor-

kggsystem wrote:
>
> Why should or would MS support SVG in IE? really...
> 
> Microsoft basically has it now (today released as "Silverlight"). 

Microsoft is not a single entity.  The IE team is completely separate 
from the Silverlight team, and in fact they compete for resources within 
the company (as do all divisions of MS).  What the IE team and the 
Silverlight team do are independent efforts.

The reason that the IE team would implement SVG is the same that any 
browser vendor would: because it is an open standard, and this is a way 
to keep pace with other browser vendors.


> For those who are not following this effort, Silverlight basically 
> does "everything" SVG does and more, and what's more important, it 
> has essentially the same model as SVG (e.g. XML and Javascript is all 
> you need). 

As well it should; it is largely based on SVG, though as a proprietary 
single-vendor technology, it has moved more quickly.  Open standards, as 
a collaborative effort between multiple vendors, are subject to more 
oversight and may develop more slowly.


> I would suggest that the most MS would do is support conversion of 
> SVG to Silverlight format. 

Or perhaps support SVG in their viewer, since they are very similar. 
But both of us are merely speculating.


> Now, above I said it does everything that SVG does. That is a bit of 
> a generalization. SVG does have some very nice features in text 
> handling, , CSS support and some more advanced animation 
> declarative constructs. But effectively Silverlight does 80% coverage 
> of SVG, and adds new stuff to the offering like built-in XmlHTTP, 
> Video, and Audio. And thats just V1.0

SVG also has XHR (via the new DOM), video, and audio... and that's just 
SVG Tiny 1.2.


Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Just noticed a lack of VML support

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Dave-

The Microsoft IE team has a strong stated policy of not breaking 
existing content.  I would expect this to apply to VML as well.

Regards-
-Doug

ddailey wrote:
> FWIW, IE7 continues VML support. I hope they don't discontinue it since for 
> some (simple) things I like the option of providing VML as an alternative to 
> SVG if the plugin doesn't exist.
> 
> David
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: dr.cataclyst 
>   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 3:49 PM
>   Subject: [svg-developers] Just noticed a lack of VML support
> 
> 
>   Is MS walking away from VML finally?
>   I recently downloaded MS Visio 2007 and noticed that there are two svg
>   options in the 'save as' dialog and zero vml.
>   No big deal I thought its probably the default for 'save as web page'.
>   Guess again, 'save as web page' generates an image mapped gif in an
>   html page.
>   Just a little food for thought.
>   dr.cataclyst



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Re: [svg-developers] decimal place rounding utility

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Harvey-

Harvey Rayner wrote:
> does anyone know of a utility i can use to round path values to required
> decimal places?

You can do this with the magical power of Regular Expressions!  Open the 
file in any editor with regex capabilities, such as RegexBuddy or 
TextPad (I use these tools, but regex is widely supported), and replace 
this:

(\d*)\.(\d{2})(\d*)

with this:

\1.\2


The first statement says, match any number of digits, followed by a ".", 
followed by 2 digits, followed by any number of digits.  The replacement 
statement says, the results of the first bracket, followed by ".", 
followed by the results of the second bracket.  This will strip down the 
strings to all but the first 2 decimal places.  There is probably a way 
to round up, rather than truncate, but I'm too tired at the moment to 
find it.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] New SVG logo and size issue with rasterizer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Harvey-

They look great to me!  Sorry I've been out of the loop... work has been 
  hectic in the extreme.

I'm sure the SVG Working Group will approve as well (forwarding them a 
message right now).  I'd like to put this up on www.svglogo.com ASAP.

Thanks again for all your hard work!

Regards-
-Doug


Harvey Rayner wrote:
> hi all,
> 
> here is the work i've been doing for the release of the new SVG logo
> 
> http://www.root2art.co.uk/svg_logo_download/
> 
> it hasn't had the official ok from doug Schepers as i can not raise him by
> email. i figure he is away from his computer for a period.
> 
> however, the logo release is long overdue and i'm taking the initiative to
> get the work done. you can leave feedback at the bottom of the page, and
> maybe based on your responses the svg powers that be can decide whether to
> sanction its use.
> 
> the svg to png conversion on the logo download site is not yet working as i
> have a problem with sizing.
> 
> within each svg logo file the size attributes are width='100%'
> height='100%'. this seems to be necessary to satisfy the way ff handles the
> embed tag.  
> 
> trouble is the batik rasterizer outputs a 400px by 400px png from this file.
> i guess 400px is a batik default.
> 
> when rasterizing the banners and i input -w 600 and -h 112 values into batik
> i'm getting a smaller image in the top left corner of a 600px by 112px png.
> 600x112 is the viewbox size in the banner svg files. follow the 'Create PNG
> Version' link under a banner and you will see what i mean. 
> 
> i haven't built a size input form on the rasterizer page yet as i'm first
> figuring out these issues.
> 
> the rasterizer is not essential as i'm sure you are all capable of resizing
> your own images if you want a png. i just thought it would be a cool feature
> that demonstrates one useful function of svg to graphic designers who may
> not be aware of the potential of svg.
> 
> cheers
> harvey 
> 



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Re: [svg-developers] Debug javascript referenced from SVG w/ Firebug

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Simon-

simonshutter wrote:
> Further to my earlier post (57950), has anybody had luck using Firebug 
> with their SVG/javascript.  The new version (getfirebug.com) is very 
> impressive but I haven't had much luck viewing code in external script 
> files although I can inspect variables etc.

I'm using Firebug 1.01, and it seems to allow at least some script 
debugging in SVG, I'm happy to say.

Regards-
-Doug


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[svg-developers] SVG and Screen Readers

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

While SVG is designed with accessibility in mind, the accessibility User
Agents do not seem to be taking advantage of this.

For example, JAWS does not currently seem to have any support for SVG.
I have just spoken to Freedom Scientific (the makers of JAWS) on the
phone, and sent them an email explaining how SVG should be used by JAWS,
with an example file.

It should be very easy for them to add such support.  I encourage
interested parties to write them and let them know that you want support
for SVG.

I am also interested in contacting other accessibility UAs that should
support SVG.  Please let me know about any others, so I can encourage
them in the same way.

Finally, I am eager to take into account any feedback on how the SVG
spec could be made more accessible by these implementors or authors with
specific advice.  I am also available to discuss and explain the
accessibility features we already have.

Regards-
-Doug

Research and Standards Engineer
6th Sense Analytics
www.6thsenseanalytics.com
mobile: 919.824.5482




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Re: [svg-developers] re: blind to "read" by selecting text

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
> 
> the query resolves to "was the tag tree conceived and designed with  
> navigation by the blind in mind"
> or is it tag soup ~:" leaving all the work to the UA.
> 
> something like the old html mess we got in before xhtml, but very  
> different.

There is no mandated content tree, because the possibilities are 
practically limitless.

There are very well-thought-out aspects to the structure in the spec, 
including having the 'title' and 'desc' elements as child elements 
(rather than as i18n-unfriendly attributes), and the ability to group 
elements together (which has no affect on rendering, but allows the 
author to include some logical structure into the file).  Note that 
Opera already displays a tooltip when you use the 'title' element, and 
does so in a very smart way (with greater preference towards child 
titles than parent titles).

Basically, it comes down to authoring.  This is what the updated SVG 
Accessibility Note will describe.  I will be sure to include explicit 
examples.  Control (buttons, sliders, and such) are obvious examples, 
but there are many other types of content that can benefit (such as 
maps, diagrams, etc.).

As must be obvious, creating properly structured documents with working 
metadata and thoughtful navigation makes your content more usable to 
everyone (including you, for reuse), not just those with vision problems.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: blind to "read" by selecting text

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Andreas-

Andreas Neumann wrote:
> 
> I also don't see how microformats can help you to improve 
> accessibility in a graphics format, a graphics viewer and a graphics 
> authoring tool. Please enlighten me.

I wrote a blog post that mentions a microformats-in-SVG approach toward 
Semantic Web and accessibility.  You might find it interesting.
  http://www.schepers.cc/?p=11

There are a variety of ways that microformats could be leveraged in an 
authoring tool or a viewer, but there is no additional need for anything 
from the SVG specification itself (which is, of course, exactly why 
microformats was designed the way it was... it just works as long as 
there is a "class" attribute).

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] embed .v. object .v. frames .v. iframes -- [was SVG in XHTML file]

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Aaron-

I have to respectfully disagree with David (a fine and intelligent man, 
to be sure), and dissuade you from using .  I use , and 
find it to be robust, as well as standards compliant.

Regards-
-Doug

Aaron Gray wrote:
> Okay, I have settled on .
> 
> Thanks for the infomation.
> 
> Aaron
> 
>   - Original Message - 
>   From: ddailey 
>   To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 1:05 AM
>   Subject: Re: [svg-developers] embed .v. object .v. frames .v. iframes -- 
> [was SVG in XHTML file]
> 
> 
>   Aaron Gray wrote:
> 
>   >This brings up the issue of embed .v. object .v. frames .v. iframes I 
> would appreciate some pointers and advice here.
> 
>   I'll go ahead and make a stab at an answer. If I misstate or neglect 
> anything, I'll hope others will jump in and correct me.
> 
>   Right now, the generally recommended way of doing SVG within HTML in 
> existing web browsers seems to be . It works and supports SVG--HTML 
> (bidirectional) scripting (w JavaScript). This works fine, from my 
> experience, with Opera 9, Firefox 1.5+ and IE/ASV3.03. I can't speak for 
> Safari which is probably one of the top 4 when it comes to SVG support in the 
> browser.
> 
>   The problem is that  is not standards compliant.  seems to 
> have been a sort of historic placeholder for 
>  and has been 
> inconsistently implemented for different types of content (different 
> attributes, different purposes, etc.) all depending on who's plugin we're 
> using.
> 
>   The W3C mechanism for importing non-HTML content into HTML documents is the 
>  tag. Unfortunately (as Martin Honnen recently reminded me -- I knew 
> I had read that once upon a time and then proceeded to forget), Adobe 
> discovered a security problem with  in its 3.03 and disabled 
> scripting through it (at least when done across domains). 
> (http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/) . I've seen some advice that it is 
> possible to get a document to validate properly with some tricks, using 
> , but I for one have not been able to pull that off 
> and still do cross-DOM scripting. Perhaps somebody has an example?
> 
>works quite nicely and simply in FF and Opera, though.
> 
>   In some experiments I did with embed object frames and iframes, (see for 
> example 
> http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/createSVGelementfromHTML.html) I 
> had some terrible troubles reading the SVG DOM
>   if it was inside a frame or an iframe.
> 
>   Eventually, I was able to solve that problem (see 
> http://srufaculty.sru.edu/david.dailey/svg/frameSVG.html.) with a peculiar 
> technique -- in the  tag I placed onload="top.receive(document)" -- that 
> is, the SVG document sends its own document as a parameter to an HTML 
> function, thence allowing cross-DOM scripting. A bit kludgy for my taste, but 
> it gives script functionality to both iframes and frames, and that's what I 
> was after. Fishing for the SVG DOM inside a frame or an iframe gave me 
> security blocks at least in IE. Instead I let the fish come to the hook.
> 
>   On other fronts, 
> 
>   a)  is likely not ever to support scripting, even once 
> individual browsers come to support that file type.
> 
>   b) the inline approach to SVG has been experimented with a good deal and is 
> likely to become much more convenient in future browsers (right now IE seems 
> to be the obstacle). The link I mentioned earlier 
> http://wiki.svg.org/Inline_SVG seems as consise and accurate as on this 
> subject as any, though I seem to recall that Andreas Neumann had some pretty 
> extensive stuff on this at his wonderful 
> http://www.carto.net/papers/svg/samples/ site -- I can't seem to locate it 
> quickly though.
> 
>   c) there is a  tag in SVG1.1 (see 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/extend.html#ForeignObjectElement) . It appears to 
> have the purpose of allowing the embedding of XHTML (and other XML content) 
> directly into SVG, I suppose somewhat like Microsoft XML data islands in 
> HTML. I haven't seen any working demos of it, and the example code in the W3C 
> specs is something I've not been able to make work in any browser (I'm hoping 
> somebody can set me straight here.)
> 
>   d) cross DOM stuff is a major focus of many of the emphases of at least a 
> dozen major projects at the W3C (it seems to this outsider). So as soon as 
> the browsers all learn to work and play nicely together, the playground will 
> become a very fun place with the ability to wrap SVG into alternative XML's 
> and vice versa using XSLT and so forth. Opera and Firefox already support 
> XPATH -- if IE did, then we could probably shrink the size of our DOM code by 
> 50%. That means we could write 200K programs for our fat clients instead of 
> just 100K programs nowadays. I don't know, does anybody pass more than 100K 
> of script into the browser at present? Seems like you'd have to get into 
> incremental loads if you did. While I'm at it, does anyone know if there any 
> W3C spec

Re: [svg-developers] VML Version of SVG Work

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Larry-

lpmlabs9 wrote:
> The decision by Adobe to pull support for their plugin is causing 
> concern by current and potential clients of SVG-based components that 
> I have built.  

That's unfortunate.  In reality, Adobe has not "supported" ASV for years 
(except for plugging security holes in a CYA strategy).

You might reassure your clients by disabusing them of the common notion 
that Adobe will not still provide a download of the plug-in.  Some 
companies still want the security of knowing a plug-in is "supported", 
though, which is understandable.

Adobe, by not releasing the source, has removed any chance of 
3rd-party (e.g. volunteer) support of ASV.  I still disapprove of their 
handling of this whole situation, though they did settle on the bare 
minimum of community responsiblity.


> Before I began using SVG a number of years back, I 
> built a few samples with VML.  Now I must give an estimate on the 
> effort to support VML as well as SVG in 1 of my projects (others to 
> follow ?).  

Rather than doing this yourself, you might look at some OS efforts that 
are already going this route.  I think I've heard of several, but most 
notable is dojo (which does it as part of its huge cross-browser script 
lib).


> I spent today mapping the SVG features I utilized to their 
> counterpart in VML but a few important items remain.  I'm looking for 
> the equivalent of marker-end/marker-mid as well as getPointAtLength.  
> Do they exist or can they be synthesized out of other available 
> elements?  Any examples or pointers would be most welcome.

I don't know if dojo handles this, but it's possible to do in script. 
You would have to essentially recreate the geometry calculations in the 
script, and write wrappers to effectively position markers at the 
appropriate place (note that orientation is probably going to be tricky).

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Merry XML !

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Jayne De Sesa wrote:
> 
> Just wanted to report that on my RIM Blackberry 7290 Wireless Handheld 
> v4.0.2.49 (Platform 
> 1.8.0.142) I only got the following message:
> 
> An error was encountered while transcoding this file (Error: An internal 
> error was 
> encountered while transcoding this file (Error: The value "100%" for 
> attribute "width" of 
> element  named "$unnamed$0" is invalid.).)

Even though this file was authored for SVG Full 1.1, it should display 
fine in a mobile viewer.  As stated in the SVG Tiny 1.1 spec [1], "SVGT 
supports user units only, except for the 'width' and 'height' attributes 
on the outermost 'svg' element where CSS units are also supported. SVGB 
supports both user units and CSS user identifiers."

So, '' is perfectly valid.

FWIW, SVG Tiny 1.2 [2] also permits percentages in width/height 
attributes of the SVG root 'svg' element.

Maybe you should file a bug report with RIM.


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile/#units
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/struct.html#SVGElementWidthAttribute

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

Jeff Schiller wrote:
> 
> Another question to anyone out there:  I don't see any way from within
> JavaScript to determine the SVGScriptElement
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/script.html#InterfaceSVGScriptElement)
> that contains the current statements being executed.  That's kind of
> funny because in order for the script to be executing it must be
> included in the DOM, right?  The script doesn't have any idea which
> DOM element contains itself.

For SVG Tiny 1.2, we tightened up the particulars of scripting (child 
content and referenced files, scripting context, order of execution, 
etc.).  I don't know if this was covered, but I'll check up on it and if 
it wasn't, I'll bring it to the SVG.  Do you have a pragmatic use case 
that could help me solidify the rationale?

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hey, Cameron-

Cameron McCormack wrote:
> 
> Another good thing to do when you’re cleaning it up is to make a version
> of the logo that has the actual “SVG� string as a text element, with an
> SVG font.

I'm way ahead of you, my friend.  And I'm adding in a graphics-only 
fallback with a title and desc in case SVG fonts aren't supported.


> It’s a good logo, by the way!  I’ll see if I can incorporate it into
> Squiggle’s splash screen for the next release…

Awesome!

I'm looking forward to the next release of Squiggle.  It sounds like it 
will have all sorts of goodness in it (in addition to the logo).

Regards-
-Doug



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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

Jeff Schiller wrote:
> 
> I agree - 'brand recognition' is important and I thank 6th Sense
> Analytics and everyone else behind the contest - I think the winning
> choice looks really nice.  Seems like orange is the new black ;)

Thanks, I do too.  Harvey did a great job.  I thought translucent 
reflection was the new black, though.

And I'd like to thank you for being such a staunch supporter of SVG, 
yourself!


> Anyway, I've updated my blog header (http://blog.codedread.com/) with
> the logo in the bottom-right corner.  In true dynamic SVG form, the
> logo is invisible unless you mouse over the blog header image, which
> makes it semi-transparent.  Mousing over the logo makes it fully opaque.  

Very tasteful.  Nice work.


> I've also put an image at the bottom of my home page
> (http://www.codedread.com/) next to the XHTML validation tag (that
> doesn't validate!).

Cool!


> Too bad Firefox/Opera don't support SVG-as-image as we recently
> discussed in this forum.  Having to copy the logo into every SVG file
> we want to reference it is a pain we'll have to endure for the next
> year or more (but thankfully, due to SVG's open nature, this is
> possible!).  

Yeah, I'd like there to be other options there.


> Doug, I hope you'll be doing a better job than I did of hacking the
> logo and ID'ing the elements properly...

I've already started on it in my spare time.  I've made good progress, 
but you know how much of a pain the output from some authoring tools can 
be (in this case, CorelDRAW, as it happens).  As a designer, Harvey 
didn't massage the code (and shouldn't have to)... but for doing things 
like changing colors, animation, and annotation, the SVG will have to be 
cleaned up considerably.

Regards-
-Doug


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[svg-developers] SVG Logo Contest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Last week, the panel of judges for the SVG logo contest decided upon the 
finalists and the winner of the contest.  We are pleased to announce 
that the winning entry is available for viewing here:
http://svglogo.com/finalists.html

Over the next few weeks, we will finalize the actual form (including 
optional animation) and produce versions in both SVG and PNG that will 
be suitable for inclusion on Web pages to indicate the level of SVG 
support needed for proper viewing of the site's content.  It is also 
intended for use on SVG-related product packaging.  We hope that 
everyone will make use of this logo, and increase the "brand awareness" 
of Scalable Vector Graphics.

Thanks for everyone who contributed to the contest!

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] ASV End-of-life cancelled and IE 7.2 with native SVG support???

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jim-

I don't work for Adobe or Microsoft, but the following is my best 
information.

Jim wrote:
 >
 > I just read that Adobe has decided to redact their decision to make
 > the Adobe SVG Viewer go end-of-life, but I cannot find that in
 > writing on Adobe's website.  I believe this is a myth.  Has anyone
 > heard about this information or disinformation?

Adobe will discontinue support for ASV as of January 1, 2008.  This has 
not changed.  It means that they will not provide any customer support 
(technical or otherwise) or produce software updates from that time 
forward.  It is not clear whether they will provide critical security 
updates or egregious bug fixes before that time.

What has changed is the availability of the plug-in for download. 
Previously, they stated that as of January 1, 2008, ASV would no longer 
be available for download.  They have now stated that they no longer 
plan to remove the viewer from their downloads page.

 From their FAQ (in PDF, of course) [1]:

"When will Adobe remove ASV from the download area?
Adobe does not currently have plans to remove Adobe SVG Viewer from the 
Adobe.com download area. Adobe recognizes that customers have built Web 
applications that depend on ASV being available for download, and 
although Adobe does not plan to develop ASV further, we plan for the 
existing versions to be available for download as long as our customers 
rely on them."


 > I think that keeping ASV on the Adobe site (down the road)
 > constitutes support for ASV...

Not really.  Many organizations will not allow "unsupported" software on 
their intranet or networked computers, as they don't want to take the 
risk that it could screw something up with no recourse to a solution. 
So, simply making it available for download is not "support".



 > Also, is this disinformation or has someone heard that IE will offer
 > native support for SVGs in IE 7.2?

Microsoft has no plans to add features to dot-releases of IE.  IE7.2, if 
there is one, will only be bug fixes.  However, IE8 is apparently under 
design or development, and there is some chance that IE will support SVG 
natively in IE8 or 9.  They've stated in the past that they are 
interested in doing so, but big companies work in mysterious ways, and 
there has been no official announcement.



[1] http://www.adobe.com/svg/pdfs/ASV_EOL_FAQ.pdf

Regards-
-Doug




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Re: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Slideshow maker

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Like Barend, I also use SVGMaker.  It's good stuff.

Regards-
-Doug

Barend Köbben wrote:
> I use SVGMaker ( http://www.svgmaker.com/), an SVG printer driver to 'print'
> SVG slideshows, including a navigation tool, from eg. PowerPoint or
> OpenOffice, etc...
> 
> __ 
> Barend Köbben
> International Institute for Geo-information
> Sciences and Earth Observation (ITC)
> PO Box 6, 7500AA Enschede (The Netherlands)
> ph: +31 (0)53 4874253; fax: +31 (0)53 4874335
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/11/06 10:54 AM, "Julien Reichel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Thanks,
>>  
>> All those tools are nice, but they can not be used by a basic user which has
>> no knowledge of XML&co.
>> I cannot believe that there are no project (or company) trying to provide a
>> wysiwyg editor for slideshows in SVG... (and it looks like I'm not the only
>> one: 
>> http://www.clipperz.com/users/marco/blog/2005/12/28/slidy_and_s5_ready_for_an_
>> ajax_editor )
>>  
>> The alternative like http://www.virtualmechanics.com/products/engine/
>>   are sadly too complicated
>> to be given to an user which only has experience with Office(PPT, word) like
>> tools. 
>>  
>> I was hopping that there was something out there, which I had not found yet,
>> but it looks like that there is really something missing.
>>  
>> Julien
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of steltenpower
>> Sent: samedi, 9. décembre 2006 00:15
>> To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [svg-developers] Re: SVG Slideshow maker
>>
>>
>>
>> Or Slidy, or one of the few presented at svgopen(.org)
>>
>> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
>>  , "tbone58x" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> wrote:
>>> Try S5 - http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/s5/
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
>>>  , "Julien Reichel"
>>>  wrote:
 Dear all,

 I'm looking for a software/application/or anything else, that could
>>> help
 creating slideshow in SVG format. The purpose is to be able to
>>> provide a
 "PowerPoint" like application to edit slideshows by non-computer
 specialist witch generate slides that can be viewed on many
>>> different
 platforms. Simply printing PPT slides into a svg or pdf files is not
 sufficient as all animations would be lost.

 I found some links to JackSVG on the web, but I couldn't find the
 software anywhere. Does anybody have an updated link to this tools ?

 Does any of you knows about application (libraries, projects, ...)
>>> that
 could help me. 

 Thank you in advance, and best regards

 Julien





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Re: [svg-developers] How to make the code work in Firefox2?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Mahesh-

You need to include the namespace for SVG and XLink in the SVG root, 
like this:



This tells FF (and conforming SVG viewers) that the document is an SVG 
document, and not just some XML that has elements of the same name.

Also, please note that as of right now, FF doesn't support declarative 
animation.  You could use my smilScript [1] JS lib to simulate it, if 
you really need it.

[1] http://www.vectoreal.com/smilscript/


Regards-
-Doug

Mahesh Basantani wrote:
> Dear Members, 
> 
> I have written a small SVG code:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>from="0" to="90" dur="10s"
> repeatCount="indefinite"/>
> 
> 
>  style="fill:olive; stroke:purple; stroke-width:6; fill-opacity:0.1;
> stroke-opacity:1"/>
> 
>  style="fill:purple;font-size:70;font-family:lucida sans italic;
> opacity:1">BIOPHILES
> 
> 
> http://www.arabidopsis.org/";> style="fill:purple; fill-opacity:1">TAIR Arabidopsis Database
> 
> http://www.tigr.org/tdb/e2k1/ath1/";> y="295" style="fill:purple; fill-opacity:1">TIGR Arabidopsis
> Database
> 
>  xlink:href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mapview/map_search.cgi?taxid=3702";> x="130" y="340" style="fill:purple; fill-opacity:1"> Arabidopsis
> Genome View at NCBI
> 
>  xlink:href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/mapview/static/arabidsearch.html";> x="130" y="385" style="fill:purple; fill-opacity:1">NCBI Arabidopsis
> Genome 
> 
> 
> 
>  I saved the Notepad file with .svg extension. Now, when i open the
> file with Internet Explorer, it works well. The code executes
> properly. But when i try to open it with Firefox 2, it doesn't work. A
> window opens and asks "What should Firefox do with this file?" Open
> with ... (IE (default) or other ) or Save to disk...
> Could anyone suggest how to fix the problem? 
> 
> thanks





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Re: [svg-developers] Re: FF2 text-anchor bug?

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

I made a minimal test case that shows how odd this bug is, and filed a 
bugzilla report [1].  It only happens when you insert text via mouse 
events, not via load events.

[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=360869

Regards-
-Doug

jnick421 wrote:
> I have an example and can shed some light on the bug.
> http://www.wpsenergy.com/JayNick/RTG/RTGraph1.svg
> 
> The  does not have any child text, but is filled
> in by script.  If I add child text such as a '-', then it works fine.
> http://www.wpsenergy.com/JayNick/RTG/RTGraph.svg
> 
> Jay Nick
> 
> --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, T Rowley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> On 11/8/06 6:11 PM, Guy Morton wrote:
>>> It seems in FF2 on Windows that all my text elements that use text- 
>>> anchor="middle" are now positioned incorrectly.
>>>
>>> FF2 on Mac doesn't show the problem (though it has other text bugs)
>>>
>>> Anyone know anything about this? Anyone at Mozilla working on it? It  
>>> is a MAJOR pain. In fact, FF2 on windows only seems to have gotten  
>>> worse for SVG, not better, which is disappointing.
>> Do you have a testcase?  FF2 on win32 displays the w3c svg testcases 
>> using anchor="middle" (text-align-01-b, text-align-03-b, and 
>> text-align-04-b) fine here.
>>
>> -tor


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Re: [svg-developers] FF2 text-anchor bug?

[Doug Schepers]

Hey, Guy-

Not to speak for Tim, but I think he was asking for an minimal test 
case, not a full application where the error was occurring.

If you are having trouble specifically with the text in the tooltip, can 
you break that out into the simplest test case that illustrates the 
problem?  You may even find out what the problem is while you're trying 
to do that, or even find a workaround.  Even if you don't find a 
solution, it will be far easier for others to try to help you.

My intuition is that you are running into a problem with  elements.

Regards-
-Doug

Guy Morton wrote:
> Tim? Did you have any luck with this FF2 bug?
> 
> Guy
> 
> 
> On 09/11/2006, at 11:35 AM, T Rowley wrote:
> 
>> On 11/8/06 6:11 PM, Guy Morton wrote:
>>> It seems in FF2 on Windows that all my text elements that use text-
>>> anchor="middle" are now positioned incorrectly.
>>>
>>> FF2 on Mac doesn't show the problem (though it has other text bugs)
>>>
>>> Anyone know anything about this? Anyone at Mozilla working on it? It
>>> is a MAJOR pain. In fact, FF2 on windows only seems to have gotten
>>> worse for SVG, not better, which is disappointing.
>> Do you have a testcase?  FF2 on win32 displays the w3c svg testcases
>> using anchor="middle" (text-align-01-b, text-align-03-b, and
>> text-align-04-b) fine here.
>>
>> -tor




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[svg-developers] SVG, Semantics, and Accessibility (was: For paper or for online?)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
> On 11/3/06, CPK Smithies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> For present purposes, the significant issue is that SVG - and XML
>> projects generally - are being designed to support the ordering and
>> design of information in a logical way. The presumption is that the more
>> logically information is structured, the easier it is to search and
>> process programmatically, and the more accessible it's possible to make
>> it for disabled people or for people using limited channels of
>> communication.

I don't agree that SVG can't pull double duty as structured markup and 
as pixel-level placement control.  SVG derives its high level of 
structure from XML (and XML best practices should be used, including 
proper markup for text), but in addition it is a visual medium, and so 
has facilities for both the logical structure and the precise 
appearance.  There is no reason for text to be split up in the way I 
complained about.

But...


> This is quite true - that in order to present information to people with
> accessibility needs, the information needs to be as structured as possible
> so that it can be "repurposed" as appropriate (eg. screen readers, braille
> printers, etc.).  It is one reason that back in PDF 1.4, Adobe introduced
> Structue & Tagging to PDF files - to enable the "best of both worlds".
> 
> With Mars and SVG, we are still working through the best solutions for how
> to continue to intermix the two - since SVG itself doesn't incorporate the
> level of structure necessary for accessbility.  For example, how do you
> differentiate paragraphs or columns?  (let alone, something as complex as a
> table).  Yes, there are W3C guidelines for such things - and we're working
> through all the options.

... I do agree with Leonard (and CPK Smithies) here that there is a 
missing part of the equation, when it comes to full accessibility.  I'm 
not really sure that there *is* a W3C technology that solves this 
problem (yet), though I'd love to be proved wrong.  But I do applaud 
anyone who is making an effort to get this right... even Adobe. ;) (jk, 
Leonard.)

If anyone is interested, I wrote a ridiculously long post about this in 
my blog at http://schepers.cc/?p=11#more-11 .  I'd welcome examples or 
discussion.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Adobe Mars: static SVG inside PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Leonard-

Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
> On 11/2/06, Doug Schepers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> So, please don't take what I say next personally. ;)  Also, these are my
>> views, not necessarily those of the SVG WG.
>>
>  I won't - don't worry!   In exchange, you can't take my comment
> as attacks on SVG or the work of the committee...

Nope. :) FWIW, it's a Working Group (WG), not a committee... the 
difference being that we don't merely oversee the development of SVG, we 
get our hands dirty and write the technical aspects of the spec itself.


>> You are using a small subset of SVG.
>>
>  True.  We are MUCH closer to SVG Tiny than to full SVG - and I
> will certainly revisit the Tiny spec, given your later comment on it's
> status to see if we are better served by leveraging that instead of
> "SVG Full".

Closer, but SVG Tiny still has advanced text capabilities.  I totally 
understand why you wouldn't include declarative animation for a print 
spec (needless overhead for static content), but the text styling and 
textPath are desirable there.


>> The benefits of
>> using SVG in this case are not really clear (other than the benefits of
>> XML in general [1]).  The content cannot really be repurposed, or
>> reliably derived from other SVG generators.
>>
>  I disagree with that, since the content CAN be repurposed and
> created from existing generators (or at least some of them).  It also
> enables the use of the myriad of existing SVG libraries to consume the
> content, manipulate it, and regenerate as necessary. 

This assumes that you have sufficient control over the generator to 
restrict its output to the subset of SVG that Mars supports, which is 
quite an assumption.  That Mars's subset is not a proper profile of SVG 
complicates this even further.

As an aside, the text generator you're using for your sample content 
(presumably the same one as in Illustrator?) is making rather chopped-up 
text.  It looks fine from a visual perspective, and will certainly print 
fine, but at the XML level, it's cruddy.  For example, in 
"mars_sample_files\1_Basic Document\page\0\pg.svg", there are 2 
instances of the word "consumer", but doing a text search will only find 
one... because the first instance is broken up thus: "consumer" (for no apparent reason, not even at 
a line break... maybe it's for kerning?  But SVG has a mechanism for 
that... ).  From an XML perspective, that's a step back from HTML.  If 
your intended audience expects to be able to use Mars files digitally, 
including search capabilities, you should fix that.  I'd be happy to 
give you advice.


>> This is a real disappointment to me.  Adobe is going from having one of
>> the most complete SVG implementations, to have one of the least.
>>
>  I think the problem here is one of marketing :(.  And I do
> understand your disappointment in not finding in Mars the replacement
> for ASV. 

No, I wasn't expecting that.  But there are needless restrictions on 
content that would be appropriate for print.


> But that's not it's goal - nor do I expect it will ever be.
> However, it is an EXCELLENT opportunity for the SVG community to
> leverage it's experience and tool set on a file format that will have
> a much wider impact (sorry to say it, but it's true).

No, it's not true.  It may be an informed opinion, and it may even be 
likely, but it's not a fact.  Just because Adobe backs something doesn't 
guarantee its success (or even that Adobe will see it through the 
gates).  Meanwhile, SVG Tiny is storming over the mobile world, and is 
becoming natively supported across browsers (just one more to go).  No 
offense, but I think you're looking at this measure of success through 
document-centric glasses, rather than as documents and applications and 
graphics.

Of course, this is just *my* opinion.


>  Taking off my Adobe hat for a second... _I_ was the one who (as a
> 3rd party developer) fought for the use of SVG for Mars's page
> content.  It's something, that you know from my participation here
> over the years, that I believe in. 

I have no doubt in your personal intent, and I thank you for your 
dedication to open standards.


> Even in the "subset" that it is
> today, the use of SVG as part of Mars continues to breath life into
> SVG - and in my opinion will only HELP to bring it back to the
> mainstream!

It's possible.


>> I'm hoping that Adobe will come around once again
>> to see the benefits of really using SVG (in print and on the Web).
>>
>   If you are looking for Adobe to adopt SVG as a replacement for
> Flash or PDF - it's simply

[svg-developers] CSS in SVG (was: Adobe Mars: static SVG inside PDF)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

For those of you who don't know, I'm not a big fan of CSS.  In general, 
I don't care much for the set of problems they chose to solve or not 
solve, and I'm not convinced that the manner in which the solutions were 
approached was a good choice in retrospect.  To be fair, it may be that 
the implementations of CSS are to blame, not the CSS specifications 
themselves.

Specifically, though, I don't think CSS is that useful outside of 
HTML... in particular, I don't think it's well-suited for use in SVG. 
Thus, my following questions and comments.

Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
> On 11/2/06, brucerindahl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> 1.  No CSS attrubutes in SVG.  While XML attributes are possible, it
>> is just easier in some cases to use style attributes in SVG.  The lack
>> of support in Mars will make this very difficult.

Bruce, what specific aspects of CSS do you normally use that would make 
its absence "very difficult"?  I'm assuming you use classes, rather than 
selectors?  What use cases in SVG do you have that are solved by CSS, 
and is CSS as it stands adequate for those use cases or could it (or 
some other mechanism) be changed to suit them better?


> We are simply following the SVG committee itself in the movement
> away from CSS to attributes - because attributes are more in line with
> XML philosophy and can be MUCH more easily validated & schema'd.

Just to set the record straight, that isn't really accurate.  SVG Tiny 
1.2 doesn't use CSS (nor did SVG Tiny 1.1), but mainly as a footprint 
issue for smaller devices, not out of a philosophical or technical 
disagreement with CSS.  SVG Full will still use CSS, and we are planning 
to work more closely with the CSS WG to make sure that authors have the 
best options available.

Admittedly, opinions about the utility of CSS in SVG do differ in the 
SVG Working Group; I am clearly not a proponent of CSS, but there are 
other active members of the SVG WG take the opposing view.  All of us 
agree that for the CDF (Compound Document Format, or 
XHTML+SVG+CSS+JS+??) use case, CSS is very important, and how exactly it 
works with SVG should be clearly defined.


Regards-
-Doug


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[svg-developers] Re: Adobe Mars: static SVG inside PDF

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Leonard-

Congrats on your new post.  Your experience with PDF and SVG make you a 
valuable team member for Adobe, I'm sure.

So, please don't take what I say next personally. ;)  Also, these are my 
views, not necessarily those of the SVG WG.


Leonard Rosenthol wrote:
> On 11/2/06, Andreas Neumann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The lack of some of the text features, markers and textpath hurts and
>> is certainly a problem when it comes to creating "maps on demand" or
>> other more complex graphics.
>>
>  The issue is that although we are using SVG syntax, we are using
> it for a different purpose than a "true" SVG viewer.  We are using it
> in a way similar to the original 1.0 (eg. a pre-layed out static
> rendering) as opposed to the more modern "dynamic rendering" of 1.1
> and 1.2.

I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of SVG 1.0.  From the 
beginning, SVG was intended to have rich text features, including 
textPath, text styling, and text positioning.  Markers, rich colors, 
filters... all of these are SVG 1.0 features, and it is a 
misrepresentation to claim or insinuate otherwise.


>  What you need to remember, is that Mars does NOT contain an SVG
> rendering engine.  It's not our intent to "reinvent" ASV inside of
> PDF.  Instead, we are using SVG (a standard XML grammar) as a way to
> represent PDF graphics.  This is true for all parts of Mars.  It's NOT
> a replacement for PDF - it's just another way to represent/serialize
> the existing "data objects".

You are using a small subset of SVG.  Nothing wrong with that, of 
course, but it doesn't make you conformant to any standard, any more 
than using the , , and  elements in isolation in some 
other format would make that format conforming HTML.  The benefits of 
using SVG in this case are not really clear (other than the benefits of 
XML in general [1]).  The content cannot really be repurposed, or 
reliably derived from other SVG generators.  As it stands, it only works 
within your particular environment, undercutting the whole point of an 
open standard.

This is a real disappointment to me.  Adobe is going from having one of 
the most complete SVG implementations, to have one of the least.  I'm 
afraid I have to agree with Andreas here, though without his optimism. 
Using SVG in this way sounds like a superficial marketing bulletpoint.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm hoping that Adobe will come around once again 
to see the benefits of really using SVG (in print and on the Web).  But 
this ain't it, and I'll call bullshit on any PR attempts to make 
sunshine out of shadows.


>> For the long run I hope
>> that Adobe Mars will support all the static SVG features when it
>> targets the print world with Mars.
>>
> Mars extends SVG to support numerous high end printing feature
> that are present in PDF but not standard SVG (or even SVG-P(rint))
> such as Overprinting and Knockout.

As you may be aware, now that SVG Tiny 1.2 is in CR phase (that is, in 
the can, so to speak), work has resumed on SVG-Print, aiming at just the 
high-end printing market you describe.  It would be great if Adobe (and 
everyone else) were to contribute a list of features that are needed, so 
that we can have an open print graphics standard that will address 
market needs without reverting to proprietary formats.


[1] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/message/53513

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: pb with asynchronous xmlHttpRequest

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

richard_smith_ons wrote:
> I don't know if it's possible to do a "real" progress bar like in 
> Flash. Below is my code for a "fake" one. [...]
>
>> In the same idea, is there a way to do like Flash when it is first 
>> loaded : Displaying an image like "Loading…" while all the loading 
>> is fully processed…

Richard supplies a good workaround.  As he says, there is nothing in 
SVG1.1 (which is what most UAs support) to handle progress events, but 
it is part of SVG Tiny 1.2 (and all later specs) [1].

If you really need a true progress bar for now, rather than simply 
showing a "waiting" graphic, you could poll the server for the size of 
each chunk that needs to be downloaded, and reflect that in the overall 
proportion of the download bar that you reveal, but there is no real way 
to get the connection speed, so it will be limited in its accuracy.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/svgudom.html#events__ProgressEvent

Regards-
-Doug



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[svg-developers] [Fwd: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 39436] - Duplicate and Incorrect MIME Type for SVG]

[Doug Schepers]

One more thing to make deploying SVG easier.  :)

-Doug

 Original Message 
Subject: DO NOT REPLY [Bug 39436]  - Duplicate and Incorrect MIME Type 
for SVG
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:16:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=39436


[EMAIL PROTECTED] changed:

What|Removed |Added

  Status|NEW |RESOLVED
  Resolution||FIXED





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Re: [svg-developers] Need help with Javascript in SVG!!!

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, starki-

starki_chr wrote:
> CIAO
> I've have a set of dynamically created barcharts that call
> via onclick a java-script function to create a tooltip showing 
> information for the clicked barchart.
> This functionality is already implemented.
> Now I would like be able to delete this tooltip 
> through a second onclick-event on the barchart, 
> how is this possible
> Can someone show me how to achieve this goal!

Here's a simple tooltip example:
http://svg-whiz.com/svg/Tooltip2.svg

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Adobe extends ASV customer support and download availability

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Pat-

Paton J. Lewis wrote:
> In response to customer feedback, Adobe has extended customer support 
> and download availability for Adobe SVG Viewer. Customer support for 
> Adobe SVG Viewer will now cease on January 1, 2008; downloads of 
> Adobe SVG Viewer will cease on January 1, 2009.
> 
> For details, please see http://www.adobe.com/svg/eol.html

Thanks for the update.  I think this is a much more responsible approach 
by Adobe.  I feel confident that a replacement can be made in that time.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] SVG authoring - web based applications

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
> Doug,
> 
> given the underwhelming response, so far 0 yes nill null nix online  
> SVG editors, it might be as well to draw a team together to work on a  
> web2.0 version, for which I have some excellent proposals

I applaud any such project, but just don't have time to contribute myself.


> had hoped we might be able to start from somewhere other than ground  
> zero ~:"

On various recent threads, there have been other such online drawing 
apps, so you wouldn't be starting from scratch.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] SVG authoring - web based applications

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Ronan-

How embarrassing!  I didn't realize that there was still a copy of that 
on my site.  It was one of the first things I wrote in SVG, 5 years ago 
or more, and it only works in ASV.  To the extent that it does function, 
it is buggy and poorly written (although a neat idea to this day).

It took me months to write, and would be a nightmare to fix or to 
support.  My intent is to rewrite it from scratch One Of These Days, but 
in the meantime, I'm afraid I've had to shoot that horse.

Ronan Oger wrote:
> There's Doug Schepers's example:
> 
> http://www.svg-whiz.com/current/svg-whiz.html
> 


Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: COALITION - (WAS: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer)

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Guy-

Guy Morton wrote:
> Yeah, but it's not too professional-looking to have to give a list of  
> "abandoned" websites that happen to host the plugin and hope that joe  
> public will trust that any software thus downloaded isn't riddled  
> with virii and worms. who's going to guarantee that it isn't? You?

I think you hit the nail on the head.

My employer targets big companies, who don't like deploying things that 
are unsupported, and who tend to use IE.  I'm sure a solution will be 
soon in coming, but "hosting" illegal copies of ASV (long abandoned, but 
still technically "supported") or using long-dead versions of Corel's 
viewer are not going to fly with these companies, and will hardly give 
credibility to SVG.

It is not the question of availability of a viewer, it is a question of 
the legitimacy and perception of viability of the viewer.


 > I love civil disobedience as much as the next man, but seriously, i
 > don't think this is much of an option.

Same here.  I like Nico's idea and attitude, but pragmatically it won't 
fly for all needs.  Having the status of a technology pending the 
resolution of a lawsuit will not inspire confidence.


Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Animation in Mozilla Firefox

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
> 
> You can wait for Firefox to finish their implementation...
> 
> I believe it is possible to write a javascript parser that changes  
> animation into javascripted stuff. I am not sure how efficient it would  
> be, and whether anyone has done it...

I have a partial implementation, called smilScript, that I am reworking 
as a Firefox extension.  I hope to release in early October.


Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] It is irresponsible for Adobe to give such short notice.

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Chaals-

Charles McCathieNevile wrote:
> 
> Adobe is a company. It is irresponible for them to make bad commercial  
> decisions. 

In fact, it is not only irresponsible, under US corporate law, it is 
illegal for corporations to make decisions that harm their shareholder's 
stock (see the interesting documentary "The Corporation").

This raises the question, though... is this decision good or bad for 
Adobe's stockholders?  That has yet to be seen.


 > They have no moral obligation to be nice to the people who use
> their products (and in this case it is a product people just used and  
> never paid for).
 >
> In my opinion, they are setting a bad precedent by withdrawing their  
> viewer completely so fast. They have a competing technology solution,  
> where there is a much higher lock-in factor than SVG - but if this is the  
> way they deal with customers, how attractive is it to give them even more  
> power over you?

As you imply, acting immorally is legal, but may have undesirable 
consequences.


> There are alternatives. 

I'd like to point out that one of the alternatives is the excellent 
Opera browser (Chaals' employer)... and Firefox, and Safari...

I know that we often cannot control what browser our target audience 
uses, but we can influence it.  By pointing out the advantages of modern 
browsers, policies can change at a corporate level.  Let your clients 
know that these other browsers support not only SVG, but also have other 
benefits as well (security, cross-platform support, better standards 
compliance so more sites will appear as intended, desktop "widgets", and 
other features).

My company is considering distributing copies of an SVG-enabled browser 
as one of its options.


 > Adobe has said they will make the plugin available
> for another year and a half. And frankly, I expect that in total breach of  
> copyright law the Adobe plugin will still be readily available on the web  
> if Adobe removes it from their site.

I'm sure you're right.  In addition, if you sign their distribution 
agreement (available on their site, though who knows for how long), you 
can distribute it on a CD bundle (though you must keep their installer). 
  But I would only want to use it as a very last resort... it's been 
dead for a long time, and it's going to stay dead.  I'll probably keep 
it around for testing, but I expect to dump it for even that as soon as 
possible.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Richard-

My experience with Dojo is not all that comprehensive, and like you, I'm 
just starting to look into Dojo2D (I'd exchanged emails with Gavin 
Doughtie, but only on a preliminary level).  But I'll answer your 
questions as best I can.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Thanks, at least there are some options but correct me if i'm wrong, Dojo2D 
> interpretes SVG into VML for IE 

That is the current plan, yes.


> and if its FF, Opera, Safari it would not 
> need to use Dojo, or if it did it would be output as SVG. 

Well, the whole point of using Dojo is that you would be using Dojo's 
abstracted layer, so you wouldn't make 2 codebases, one with SVG and one 
with the Dojo2D framework... you would simply use Dojo, and it would 
deliver the content in a way that the browser understands.


> What would happen if IE get rid of VML?

Theoretically, Dojo could then change its low-level code to target 
whatever vector-format *is* available in IE, and you wouldn't have to 
change your high-level code.  Maybe it would render it as Flash, or 
XAML, or best case, SVG if IE substituted VML for SVG or if a common 
plug-in were available.  Worst-case scenario, they could raterize it on 
the server, perhaps, and deliver static PNGs (or even animated MNGs, if 
they were supported).  Some small level of interactivity could even be 
preserved by using on-the-fly imagemaps.

Naturally, this would take time and a reworking of the open-source 
Dojo2D library, but I'm sure that MS will not abandon VML without fair 
warning (then again, I didn't think Adobe would give such short notice 
either).


> Im reading up on Dojo just to get an idea but would welcome your comments on 
> the above as you have some experience in this area.

But let me close by saying that while looking into other options is 
prudent (I'm doing it myself), there's actually a lot that can happen in 
4 months, and even more in a year and 4 months.  It's not like the SVG 
implementors would be starting from scratch.  There are suitable SVG 
viewers out there that need only to be adapted as IE plug-ins.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
> Doug,
> 
> I don't know what else is falling apart in your life, but you need to  
> take a break.

Actually, my life is going just fine, but thanks for your concern.  In 
fact, I will be taking a nice vacation in a few days.


> my previous email was clearly labelled a reply to jeff's email, not  
> that you couldn't reply, but really your rant had absolutely nothing  
> to do with my email, which again had nothing to do with logos.

When I am quoted out of context, and the context in which I made the 
statement was the logo, I am going to step in and contextual that quoted 
statement.

To some degree, I represent the SVG WG, and thus I feel a responsibility 
to clarify disinformation about where the working group stands. 
Including audio (to the objection of several people) in SVG Tiny 1.2 was 
a clear commitment to progressive Web standards, including 
accessibility, a fact I'd have thought you would appreciate.

If you don't want me to respond and to reestablish context for my public 
comments, then don't (mis)quote me.  That seems pretty straightforward.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Richard-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Doug
> 
> Yeh it would be good to perhaps have some idea of where we are going, our 
> apps rely heavily on SVG (closed apps that have logins) but my head is 
> spinning at the moment what to do. Maybe I should leave it for another 12 
> months and then start to worry 8 months or so before ASV gewts pulled, 
> hopefully there will be good news around the corner, unfortunatley all our 
> users use IE, we are rewriting a new version to include FF, Opera and 
> Safari, but IE is still the main browser.
> 
> I hear Ajax , Dojo2d, laszlo, emiasyswhich is the right path.oh 
> dear.

Well, I don't think it's all that confusing.  The choices really break 
down to 3 options:

1) hope/work toward SVG support in IE, either native or via a plugin 
(EmiaSys and all others mentioned on this list fall into this category)

2) use an abstracted framework that delivers whatever graphics format is 
appropriate for the target platform (Ajax, Dojo2d, laszlo all fall into 
this category)

3) use some other technology (XAML and Flash [possibly laszlo?] fall 
into this category)

I'm avoiding category 3 like the plague.  The nice thing is that 
categories 1 and 2 are orthogonal... a business can use a framework, and 
when IE SVG support is stable, reexamine if they still need that 
framework.  It can be a permanent commitment (dojo has a lot of 
advantages apart from SVG) or a stopgap.

I can tell you what my company is considering doing, and maybe that 
might help inform your choices.  We are already using dojo, so we will 
be investigating how well our content can be presented in dojo2D.  I 
admit to some initial skepticism; VML is really limited, but I will 
follow up on it and see how much can be done.  If it is designed 
correctly, it could deliver SVG to FF, Opera, Safari, etc., VML to base 
IE, and SVG to IE+SVG (either via plug-in or native, down the line).

dojo2D pros:
* abstracted development layer
* browser independent
* doesn't matter if IE has an SVG plug-in or not

dojo2D cons:
* dependence on dojo framework (not so bad for my company)
* new abstracted layer to learn
* may not be as full-featured as programming to native SVG 
implementations (lowest common denominator)

But my real aim is finding a replacement for ASV.  Having spent a few 
days taking stock of our options, I am pretty confident that with the 
will behind this group, the commercial opportunities and incentives for 
other companies, and the available resources (both open and closed 
source), we will be able to get at least fair SVG support for IE.

Of course, Adobe could help this along by providing the code to help us 
do this, rather than aggressively attacking SVG.  As has been said 
before, they have every right to stop supporting ASV, but their next 
move determines how they will be seen in doing so.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
> 
> In case of complete mozilla SVG developer obtuseness as currently  
> available in bucket loads: it is an accessibility issue, a usability  
> issue and if commonsense and commercial realism aren't enough an  
> enhancement request as well. However they know best... "audio will  
> irritate most people"

Quit taking my words out of context.  As I said to you on IRC a couple 
days ago, "peepo, I don't want you to have the impression that I don't 
think audio is important.  I do.  I love that SVGT1.2 now has a 
standardized way to implement it in browsers.  I will push for them to 
do so [browsers to implement it].  I just don't think it's needed for a 
logo."  My statement was clearly about specific content (the logo), not 
about the capability of the UA.

Imagine this scenario:  a user goes to a page where the author indicates 
that to view the content, they will need an SVG viewer;  this was common 
in the early days of Flash, and until SVG is widely available on IE, I 
think this is may be the most common use case for the logo (I know my 
company uses a similar indicator on the log-in screen).

The user either has SVG capability (they are using a modern browser or 
have a plug-in), or they go and get it (we hope!) and come back.  There, 
they are hit with the "ding-Ding-DING" or "fwoosh!" or (basso profundo) 
"SVG Powered!" sound of the logo.  Maybe they ignore it, or maybe they 
hear it once and think, "Hah, that's cute".

Then they visit the site again.  And again.  And they go to another site 
that uses the SVG logo.  And as SVG becomes even more popular (I'm an 
optimist, remember), they hear that sound more and more.

The user doesn't want to browse with the sound off on their computer 
because they are listening to their iTunes, or disable audio in their 
browser because they are streaming Pandora.

I have no doubt that they would come to associate that sound with SVG, 
it's true... but the flip side is that they would start associating SVG 
with that dang sound that keeps hitting them every time they stumble on 
a page using SVG.  It happens when they are browsing at work, in a cafe, 
etc.  For me, the irritation would start to really kick in right around 
the 2nd or 3rd time, and grow from there.  Sorry, but I don't want SVG 
to become associated with the aural equivalent of the  tag.

So, what does a sensible SVG author do?  They take out the sound, or use 
the sound-free version (which I assure you, the logo contest would 
provide).  Accessibility, as you know, is something that only works well 
when it is consistent (such as by providing an inobtrusive text 
fallback).  If the sound is present some places, but not others, it 
merely sends a mixed indicator to those who would benefit from it, which 
is actually even worse.

Finally, what makes you think that visually-impaired people want to be 
assailed by sound any more than sighted people?  Do you think I like 
having Flash banners blinking at me from the sidebar or top of the page? 
  Let's be clear: when you are talking about accessibility, are you 
talking about for the visually-impaired, or for some other group?

We could provide a more discrete way to activate the sound than on load 
time, such as when the user focuses it (clicking on the logo, or tabbing 
to it).  But this has several drawbacks:
1)  It drastically increases the file size (in which case authors will 
use the smaller sound-free version, see above);
2)  If the user already has a screen-reader, the sound would obscure the 
voicing of the text equivalent provided by the metadata/text fallback;
3)  Finding a professional-quality distinctive sound would be even more 
difficult and expensive than finding a professional-quality logo, since 
it's not as common a hobby and is even more subject to taste (and I'm 
not willing to settle for a mediocre sound).

Now imagine some different scenarios:  I am building a Web application, 
and I provide discreet but clear UI sounds... clicks, slides, zooms (for 
the record, this is not theoretical, I've done this at a client's 
behest, for special-needs kids, and it worked well).  Or, I provide an 
audio help system, or a tutorial.  Or I make a simple audio mixer in 
SVG.  Or I have an audio and/or video streaming player in SVG in my 
browser.  Or, like your site, when the user focuses a particular icon, a 
specific sound is played.

These are all good uses of sound in SVG... or rather, good uses of sound 
on the Web.  They have context and enhance --rather than detract from-- 
the user experience.  I'm very glad that we are starting to make this 
possible (after way too long).

Having it on a logo?  Not appropriate.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jonathan-

Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:
> 
> In case of complete mozilla SVG developer obtuseness as currently  
> available in bucket loads: it is an accessibility issue, a usability  
> issue and if commonsense and commercial realism aren't enough an  
> enhancement request as well. However they know best... "audio will  
> irritate most people"

Quit taking my words out of context.  As I said to you on IRC a couple 
days ago, "peepo, I don't want you to have the impression that I don't 
think audio is important.  I do.  I love that SVGT1.2 now has a 
standardized way to implement it in browsers.  I will push for them to 
do so [browsers to implement it].  I just don't think it's needed for a 
logo."  My statement was clearly about specific content (the logo), not 
about the capability of the UA.

Imagine this scenario:  a user goes to a page where the author indicates 
that to view the content, they will need an SVG viewer;  this was common 
in the early days of Flash, and until SVG is widely available on IE, I 
think this is may be the most common use case for the logo (I know my 
company uses a similar indicator on the log-in screen).

The user either has SVG capability (they are using a modern browser or 
have a plug-in), or they go and get it (we hope!) and come back.  There, 
they are hit with the "ding-Ding-DING" or "fwoosh!" or (basso profundo) 
"SVG Powered!" sound of the logo.  Maybe they ignore it, or maybe they 
hear it once and think, "Hah, that's cute".

Then they visit the site again.  And again.  And they go to another site 
that uses the SVG logo.  And as SVG becomes even more popular (I'm an 
optimist, remember), they hear that sound more and more.

The user doesn't want to browse with the sound off on their computer 
because they are listening to their iTunes, or disable audio in their 
browser because they are streaming Pandora.

I have no doubt that they would come to associate that sound with SVG, 
it's true... but the flip side is that they would start associating SVG 
with that dang sound that keeps hitting them every time they stumble on 
a page using SVG.  It happens when they are browsing at work, in a cafe, 
etc.  For me, the irritation would start to really kick in right around 
the 2nd or 3rd time, and grow from there.  Sorry, but I don't want SVG 
to become associated with the aural equivalent of the  tag.

So, what does a sensible SVG author do?  They take out the sound, or use 
the sound-free version (which I assure you, the logo contest would 
provide).  Accessibility, as you know, is something that only works well 
when it is consistent (such as by providing an inobtrusive text 
fallback).  If the sound is present some places, but not others, it 
merely sends a mixed indicator to those who would benefit from it, which 
is actually even worse.

Finally, what makes you think that visually-impaired people want to be 
assailed by sound any more than sighted people?  Do you think I like 
having Flash banners blinking at me from the sidebar or top of the page? 
  Let's be clear: when you are talking about accessibility, are you 
talking about for the visually-impaired, or for some other group?

We could provide a more discrete way to activate the sound than on load 
time, such as when the user focuses it (clicking on the logo, or tabbing 
to it).  But this has several drawbacks:
1)  It drastically increases the file size (in which case authors will 
use the smaller sound-free version, see above);
2)  If the user already has a screen-reader, the sound would obscure the 
voicing of the text equivalent provided by the metadata/text fallback;
3)  Finding a professional-quality distinctive sound would be even more 
difficult and expensive than finding a professional-quality logo, since 
it's not as common a hobby and is even more subject to taste (and I'm 
not willing to settle for a mediocre sound).

Now imagine some different scenarios:  I am building a Web application, 
and I provide discreet but clear UI sounds... clicks, slides, zooms (for 
the record, this is not theoretical, I've done this at a client's 
behest, for special-needs kids, and it worked well).  Or, I provide an 
audio help system, or a tutorial.  Or I make a simple audio mixer in 
SVG.  Or I have an audio and/or video streaming player in SVG in my 
browser.  Or, like your site, when the user focuses a particular icon, a 
specific sound is played.

These are all good uses of sound in SVG... or rather, good uses of sound 
on the Web.  They have context and enhance --rather than detract from-- 
the user experience.  I'm very glad that we are starting to make this 
possible (after way too long).

Having it on a logo?  Not appropriate.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I spose we are now in the hands of
> 
> http://www.gosvg.net/
> 

I just want to note here that the team behind the Renesis SVG viewer is 
under new management... there is a new company, EmiaSys, with only the 
core technical staff, and with a different financial backer.  From what 
I understand, the original parent company, EvolGrafiX, was a source of a 
lot of the frustrations we felt.  I think we should keep an open mind 
about the Renesis platform.  I've been talking to EmiaSys casually for a 
couple months as an SVG WG member (they've been asking about some 
technical matters related to SVG Tiny 1.2) and they seem much more 
focused than before.

But I agree with Ronan's post in this thread.  There are several options 
out there, including existing SVG viewers that haven't bothered to 
create plug-ins for IE because Adobe had already staked that ground out. 
  This does represent an opportunity for one or more companies to prove 
their mettle.

I would like to see several viewers available...  not just for 
redundancy, but to drive innovation.  Even if IE ends up supporting SVG, 
we won't know to what degree or how cross-browser compatible it will be, 
so as a business decision, I would like to have the option to distribute 
an alternate viewer of my choosing that has all the features that I 
need.  I would not be surprised if companies using SVG would pay for 
support and distribution contracts, something Adobe never offered.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Is Adobe's greed clearing the way for XAML

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jon-

I feel the very same way.  We need a standardized way to deliver audio 
and video, that's clear.  There are some detractors of SVG that complain 
about audio and video being in SVG, but it needs to happen somewhere 
(and after all, it's really just extending the hosted SMIL).

I think that we should actually mandate some open video format, such as 
Ogg Theora:
http://www.theora.org/theorafaq.html

Regards-
-Doug

Jon Ferraiolo wrote:
> 
> Hi Jonathan,
> You asked, so I will answer. My opinion on audio and video is that I hope
> the browser vendors see the multimedia light and implement the SMIL timing
> and animation modules. They have to implement most of it anyway for SVG
> 1.1, so why not have a bit of foresight and:
> 
> * implement the few extra bits needed for future support for what is needed
> for SVG-t 1.2
> * implement the timing and animation engines as separate modules from SVG
> so that it can be used on HTML also (similar to HTML+TIME in IE5.5)
> * support SVG-t 1.2's audio and video tags in conjuntion with SVG content
> * support audio and video content in conjunction with HTML's object tag
> 
> The tricky part is inclusion of industry-standard codecs, some of which
> require paying licensing fees, which is hard for freely downloadable
> software. To get around this issue, the browser vendors should hook into
> existing audio/video player software (QuickTime, WMP, even maybe Flash) via
> the HTML object tag which they control from their built-in SMIL engine.
> 
> I think this is an important issue for that part of the industry that wants
> to create standards-compliant content and not rely on proprietary formats
> and single-vendor runtimes. Multimedia is hitting the mainstream (driven in
> part by all of those young people uploading bad videos for the world to
> see). We need a standards-based approach to playing that content in
> conjunction with rich user interfaces.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> Jon Ferraiolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Web Architect, Emerging Technologies
> IBM, Menlo Park, CA
> Mobile: +1-650-464-7817
>
> Jonathan Chetwynd wrote:  
> 
> Jon,
> 
> among other significant outstanding bugs that mozilla/firefox is
> being really slow to resolve is the issue of audio or sound.
> 
> Aywk adobe had sound support from the start as does flash. in fact
> many authors use flash solely to provide audio on webpages.
> 
> I just wondered whether you had considered this issue and whether you
> felt it had relevance.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jonathan Chetwynd


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jon-

jon_ferraiolo wrote:
> Hi Marc,
> I think you misunderstood me. I was replying to Margie about how 
> best to encourage Adobe to change their policy. I agree that Adobe 
> isn't likely to rethink their commitment to Flash/Flex, but they 
> might rethink some other things, such as making ASV available for 
> downloads after 1/1/08, supporting ASV beyond 1/1/07, and/or 
> donating the source code to open source.

Jon, you are an optimist... and I mean that in a good way.  I admire 
your propensity for finding solutions rather than dwelling on the problem.

I think the ideal case would be for Adobe to release the source for the 
non-proprietary parts of the plug-in (I have no hope that they would 
release the graphics engine).  This would give us a boost in creating a 
replacement, and would relieve them of their moral responsibility.

Failing that, I like your suggestion of lengthening their terms by a 
reasonable time... say, a year each.

Regards-
-Doug


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Re: [svg-developers] Re: Announcement: Adobe to Discontinue Adobe SVG Viewer

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeff-

As usual, I think you hit the nail on the head.

I have been taking stock on exactly the options you have gone over. 
Mozilla is open source and of high quality.  Renesis has made good 
progress and is planning some very interesting things for their October 
release.  Amanith is just lovely, but they have no DOM or scripting.

All of these have one thing in common:  we need to figure out how to 
package any or all of these as a plug-in/"Add On" for IE.  We would need 
information on:

* The basic packaging of how this would work, including managing how the 
target content (SVG) is recognized and rendered.  I have looked around, 
but could not find a clear set of instructions... I'm sure it's out 
there, though.  Possibly we can even find even a stub that will serve as 
a template.

* How to manage SVG<->HTML communication, possibly between different 
scripting engines.

* How to inline SVG insofar as IE is capable of this (optional).

* How to do all this in a way that will work even if MS IE changes their 
architecture because of the Eolas lawsuit.

I welcome any clues about any of the above.  The Corel and Mobiform 
viewers all had at least some of the above, and though at least Corel is 
dead, maybe we can find someone from those fronts with the proper 
knowledge.

Regards-
-Doug


Jeff Schiller wrote:
> We can't rely on Microsoft, just like we shouldn't have been 
> comfortable relying on Adobe, to do the right thing and implement 
> native support for SVG for free.  There are business considerations 
> that will always take priority.  Even if they do it, I fear 
> compatibility issues - their browser engine is still the worst of the 
> major browsers out there.
> 
> So where are the open source, cross-platform SVG 1.1 viewers ?  What 
> about taking the Mozilla base and developing a browser plugin from 
> that for only SVG support?  What about candidates like AmanithVG and 
> Renesis for a SVG 1.2 viewer?  Let's get a list of all the candidate 
> open-source projects and contribute so that they flourish before Jan 
> 2008.
> 
> And I agree with Jon - praise to Adobe for past support, but I cry 
> foul to MacroAdobe for this distinctly hostile gesture towards this 
> development community.  They know there is no suitable replacement 
> for IE as of today.
> 
> Jeff


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