Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
Ronan Oger wrote: The majority of SVG-related roles currently on offer worldwide in the places I know of are for Adobe. I don't think that it is appropriate to say that Adobe have 'let go' just because you don't see any new ASV browser. Why, exactly, would Adobe release a new browser now? Has anything changed in the SVG1.0 or SVG1.1 recommendations, the ONLY existing recommendations? SVG1.2 is out for comment, or just done with that. [snip] Commercial vendors don't build software for fun alone. The eternal upgrade cycle is limited to open-source 'look-at-me' developers (including myself) and oops-we-did-something-stupid developers like Microsoft. If ASV ain't broken, there's no reason to fix it. And since it's not out of date, there's nothing to keep up to date with. Ronan, I don't agree with you here. Nothing has changed since SVG1.1, indeed. But ASV3 (which I see as reference for this version of SVG), while being an excellent and nearly complete viewer, has many bugs (I have found a number of them, and I am by no way an SVG expert pushing the language to its limits...), is missing a number of features (listed by Adobe itself...), mostly in the JS implementation, and has a well know weakness in handling inclusion external SVG files (external fonts, SVG with script or animation, SVG with bitmap images, etc.). These bugs and limitations would justify a new release of ASV3, even more as probably some of them have been handled in ASV6 (which is aimed at SVG 1.2 and still beta). Now, as you said, Commercial vendors don't build software for fun alone, so the question would be: Why Adobe should work to improve ASV3 and still release it for free? They do this for PDF, ie. with Adobe [Acrobat] Reader, but then they have tools doing PDF documents to sell. Indeed, they have tools to make SVG documents as well (Illustrator), but: 1) Illustrator can live without SVG support, it has before. 2) It is not alone. Indeed, now there are many 3rd party tools to generate PDF, but Adobe can still lead the way by packing new features into PDF, while it can't do that with SVG. Of course, I don't claim any insight of the politics of Adobe, it is just my point of view on the topic... :-P -- Philippe Lhoste -- (near) Paris -- France -- http://Phi.Lho.free.fr -- For servers mangling my From and Reply-To fields, -- please send private answers to PhiLho(a)GMX.net -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
I just got my updated version of Acrobat Reader 7.0 with third- party addons as Yahoo Toolbar and Photoshop Album. This make me think why don't Adobe distribute SVG Viewer 3+ along with Acrobat Reader 7 so it will reach a massive user base. I can't find a desktop without Acrobat Reader, this should be the same as with Adobe SVG Viewer. Regards, Renato F. Salas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
Hi Renato, Yes, that's true, it would increase dramaticly the number of desktop with ASV, and it would be very benefic to SVG. But on the other hand, it reminds me the story of an operating system (???) distruting its favorite browser with itsself, reducing dramaticly any concurrent development. Nowadays, it's true, ASV is mainly THE SVG viewer. But it is only a standard in fact. I still hope there will be other viewers in the future. Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte Société Logatique 50 rue Marcel Dassault 92100 Boulogne-Billancourt 01 46 21 59 59 renatonow wrote: I just got my updated version of Acrobat Reader 7.0 with third- party addons as Yahoo Toolbar and Photoshop Album. This make me think why don't Adobe distribute SVG Viewer 3+ along with Acrobat Reader 7 so it will reach a massive user base. I can't find a desktop without Acrobat Reader, this should be the same as with Adobe SVG Viewer. Regards, Renato F. Salas - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
It certainly seems like Adobe is really pulling back from SVG in a large way. No (visible) significant work in the area in quite some time, marginal interoperability with Firefox, and so on. Quite a shame. I've always said that native SVG support in the browser would be the only way to achieve broad acceptance. Any one know a timetable for native SVG in Firefox? -Original Message- From: Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! Hi Renato, Yes, that's true, it would increase dramaticly the number of desktop with ASV, and it would be very benefic to SVG. But on the other hand, it reminds me the story of an operating system (???) distruting its favorite browser with itsself, reducing dramaticly any concurrent development. Nowadays, it's true, ASV is mainly THE SVG viewer. But it is only a standard in fact. I still hope there will be other viewers in the future. Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte Société Logatique 50 rue Marcel Dassault 92100 Boulogne-Billancourt 01 46 21 59 59 - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
Native SVG in Firefox I believe is scheduled for March, but that may have changed With regards to IE, how hard would it be to develop an open source plugin? I don't know where to start to develop one, but it doesn't seem inpossible. What if a group was started to develop one? Start taking control of SVG's destiney. Why be slaves to Adobe and Microsoft? Just a thought. Rick Bullotta wrote: It certainly seems like Adobe is really pulling back from SVG in a large way. No (visible) significant work in the area in quite some time, marginal interoperability with Firefox, and so on. Quite a shame. I've always said that native SVG support in the browser would be the only way to achieve broad acceptance. Any one know a timetable for native SVG in Firefox? -Original Message- From: Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! Hi Renato, Yes, that's true, it would increase dramaticly the number of desktop with ASV, and it would be very benefic to SVG. But on the other hand, it reminds me the story of an operating system (???) distruting its favorite browser with itsself, reducing dramaticly any concurrent development. Nowadays, it's true, ASV is mainly THE SVG viewer. But it is only a standard in fact. I still hope there will be other viewers in the future. Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte Société Logatique 50 rue Marcel Dassault 92100 Boulogne-Billancourt 01 46 21 59 59 - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
This is interesting these are all job advertisements in the past few weeks with svg listed in the requirements somewhere: Quality Engineer Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg, APPLY Principal Scientist Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg, APPLY Project Lead Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg, APPLY Software Engineer Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg, APPLY Quality Engineer Adobe Hamburg/Hamburg, APPLY Senior Computer Scientist San Jose, Adobe White Box Test Lead for Acrobat San Jose, Adobe - Experience working with XML is strongly preferred. Familiarity with several of the following standards XSLT, XSL-FO, XHTML, CSS, XForms, SVG is a strong plus. Doesn't sound like they are abandoning svg to me? -Original Message- From: Rick Bullotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! It certainly seems like Adobe is really pulling back from SVG in a large way. No (visible) significant work in the area in quite some time, marginal interoperability with Firefox, and so on. Quite a shame. I've always said that native SVG support in the browser would be the only way to achieve broad acceptance. Any one know a timetable for native SVG in Firefox? -Original Message- From: Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! Hi Renato, Yes, that's true, it would increase dramaticly the number of desktop with ASV, and it would be very benefic to SVG. But on the other hand, it reminds me the story of an operating system (???) distruting its favorite browser with itsself, reducing dramaticly any concurrent development. Nowadays, it's true, ASV is mainly THE SVG viewer. But it is only a standard in fact. I still hope there will be other viewers in the future. Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte Société Logatique 50 rue Marcel Dassault 92100 Boulogne-Billancourt 01 46 21 59 59 - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
Hi, I have been following the SVG discussions for a couple of years now (and an early adopter as well). However the cry out to Adobe for support on SVG is quite old. Far too old To them it is just another business case. They 've invested some money and they want to see ROI now. In other words they need to have a profitable business model (paying customers!). Aparently they have not. Another gossip is that SVG could compete with their PDF technology (which is currently profitable!). The fact that this discussion lingers on and on, without possitive feedback from the (historical) biggest investor (or any other company for that matter) says more then enough I think. Unless there is a significant (profitable) demand for this technology shortly, MS will set the standard once again (including embedding in IE). Have a look at all the early adopters developping SVG tooling. They are not to sure either, since they have hastened themselves to provide the MS flavor as well. And yes of course, there will always be a niche market... Regards, Cor Hofman. -Original Message- From: Rick Bullotta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:08 PM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! It certainly seems like Adobe is really pulling back from SVG in a large way. No (visible) significant work in the area in quite some time, marginal interoperability with Firefox, and so on. Quite a shame. I've always said that native SVG support in the browser would be the only way to achieve broad acceptance. Any one know a timetable for native SVG in Firefox? -Original Message- From: Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 10:08 AM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! Hi Renato, Yes, that's true, it would increase dramaticly the number of desktop with ASV, and it would be very benefic to SVG. But on the other hand, it reminds me the story of an operating system (???) distruting its favorite browser with itsself, reducing dramaticly any concurrent development. Nowadays, it's true, ASV is mainly THE SVG viewer. But it is only a standard in fact. I still hope there will be other viewers in the future. Jérôme Tricand de la Goutte Société Logatique 50 rue Marcel Dassault 92100 Boulogne-Billancourt 01 46 21 59 59 - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!!
Agree almost completely. The foundation for all success is ubiquitous or native browser support. Period. Flash succeeds because it can run just about anywhere in anything. http://www.macromedia.com/shockwave/download/alternates/ Without that type of broad based support, SVG may never get past its boutique usage stage. Applying the same logic, however, the same could become of (the vector graphics part of) XAML unless some type of multi-platform, multi-browser XAML graphics rendering engine is made available. An alternative path would be for SVG, or a subset of it, to be absorbed into XHTML, which might (somewhat) force the hand of anyone creating something browser-like to support SVG. Let's face it - all most of us really need is some relatively simple vector graphics rendered in our browsers. All of the exotic filters and transforms and some of the more esoterica in SVG are in the nice to have category. I'd be deliriously happy to have SVG Basic or even SVG Tiny supported natively by all major browsers. In hindsight, VML was pretty darn close to what was needed. It is a shame that the divergence occurred. I don't pretend to understand the politics or dynamics, but in any case, it suc%s for everyone involved. For now, we're sticking to SVG on the server-side for dashboarding applications, but I hope that can change in the future. - Rick -Original Message- From: Cor Hofman (SC :) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 2:07 PM To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [svg-developers] Adobe please distribute SVG Viewer ...MASSIVELY !!! Hi, I have been following the SVG discussions for a couple of years now (and an early adopter as well). However the cry out to Adobe for support on SVG is quite old. Far too old To them it is just another business case. They 've invested some money and they want to see ROI now. In other words they need to have a profitable business model (paying customers!). Aparently they have not. Another gossip is that SVG could compete with their PDF technology (which is currently profitable!). The fact that this discussion lingers on and on, without possitive feedback from the (historical) biggest investor (or any other company for that matter) says more then enough I think. Unless there is a significant (profitable) demand for this technology shortly, MS will set the standard once again (including embedding in IE). Have a look at all the early adopters developping SVG tooling. They are not to sure either, since they have hastened themselves to provide the MS flavor as well. And yes of course, there will always be a niche market... Regards, Cor Hofman. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
