protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Ronan Oger]

More protection musings,

For most of us, there is no point in protecting the SVG markup. The only value 
of the markup is that it generates a recognizable design and a behaviour, and 
that can be stolen by copying the results, rather than going through the huge 
trouble of understanding the markup details.

More I see SVG, less I understand why people want to 'protect' it. If we were 
talking about high-grade artistic images or clipart, I might would understand 
the reasoning. However, since most of us are talking about GUIs and web 
applications with serverside componetns, I simply do not see the point. 

The hardest and most expensive work in application development is getting the 
design and the usability right. The next hard bit is getting the backend to 
do what you want.

The bit about painting the svg image with the svg markup is only interesting 
right now because none of us have access to good  IDE's that do it for us.

But let's not lose perspective... Nobody really is going to take a complex 
application and copy it by 'stealing' the svg.

The markup part of the GUI is but a tiny fraction of the value of the 
application, and the fact that people need to know the tricks of getting the 
SVG to paint what they want to show is exactly what is currently wrong with 
SVG in commercial use. 

Take a look at how flex works... it uses an xml markup to declare application 
behaviour. The rest of this is handled by a backend that generates its own 
markup that nobody cares about. That's how it should be, and that's how it's 
going to have to be for SVG before SVG becomes a widespread application 
development markup.

By the way, do not over-estimate encryption... PDF's encryption is only 
activated by readers that respect/implement the encryption. Other readers 
simply show the content.

Ronan

On Saturday 12 November 2005 03:04, Francis Hemsher wrote:
> Hi Alastair,
>  Tossing ideas can be fun and creative.
>  Protecting SVG, I believe is a possible goal. I don't quite know how
>  to get there yet, but I'm working on it. I think this would be a
>  neat feature for SVG.
>
>  I don't quite understand why dynamic SVG would be 'out the window'
>  by using your suggestion. After, all, the viewer just wants a
>  snapshot of what he sees in the browser. Can't we have some kinda
>  WYSIWYG in the print?
>
>
>  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Fettes"
>
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Just tossing out ideas now.
>  >
>  > This could be a way of protecting your SVG content.  Convert your
>
>  SVG
>
>  > graphics to PDF and encrypt, then return the output PDF.  People
>
>  can
>
>  > view your SVG static graphics but not regain their source.  This
>
>  would
>
>  > also lead to no cross-browser viewing issues.  Of course dynamic
>
>  SVG
>
>  > would be out the window with this one I'm afraid.
>  >
>  > Alastair
>  >
>  > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Fettes"
>  >
>  > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > > Write yourself a simply client side script and server
>
>  application.  To
>
>  > > print get the user to click a button of some sort that calls a
>
>  ECMA
>
>  > > function that captures the current zoom level, what is visible -
>
>  the
>
>  > > current viewbox.  Take this and send it over a redirect URL to
>
>  your
>
>  > > server side application.  On the server side, have your
>  > > php/jsp/whatever take this viewbox and set it on a copy of the
>
>  SVG
>
>  > > server side (in a variable in your app) and have a pre-authored
>
>  XSL-FO
>
>  > > file that simply references the SVG.  Then convert this to PDF
>
>  with
>
>  > > FOP and redirect the user to the PDF.
>  > >
>  > > Done.
>  > >
>  > > Cheers,
>  > > Alastair
>  > >
>  > > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Kalev"
>
>  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>  > wrote:
>  > > > Hi Francis,
>  > > >
>  > > > I have the following setup: IE6, ASV3, HTML page with embedded
>
>  SVG, I
>
>  > > > use JavaScript to zoom and pan then simply print the web page
>
>  and the
>
>  > > > result is a printed page of the area that was visible on the
>
>  screen.
>
>  > > > In order to avoid "squashing" of the svg image while printed,
>
>  I use
>
>  > > > absolute dimensions in the style sheets used for print media
>
>  (11in x
>
>  > > > 8.5in). Also make sure you set your printer to LANDSCAPE...
>  > > >
>  > > > Peter Kalev
>  > > > Senior Developer,
>  > > > SWF, LLC
>  > > >
>  > > >
>  > > > -Original Message-
>  > > > From: Francis Hemsher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 7:03 PM
>  > > > To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
>  > > > Subject: [svg-developers] Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE
>  > > >
>  > > > Hi,
>  > > > I would like the user to be able to print the segment of the
>
>  SVG
>
>  > image
>  >
>  > > > that happens to be displayed, after they zoom into a specific
>  >
>  > area. I'm
>  >
>  > > > sure not going to waste much effort in this, because I think
>
>  it's

protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Francis Hemsher]

Hi Ronan,

Let's assume your SVG document is the result of much creative 
efforts: i.e., it is the product you are presenting.
Without some means of protecting viewing certain segments of that 
product, one can work backwards through that document, and rebuild 
the app.  

Therefore, by a strategy of encrypting random segments of the 
document, it would be almost impossible for someone to reconstuct 
it, and therefore use it to work back through its creation methods: 
There would not be a nice clean copy of the SVG document that would 
display so someone could begin their backward journey to uncover 
your wonderous efforts.

I don't loose sleep over this...I agree with you that the effort of 
working back through the app can be complex, even when the SVG 
document is fully present. However, with a just a tiny bit of 
encryption it can become much, much more difficult.

BTW, The best encryption method is one that exists within a "black 
velvet box" where its process is never defined...ever.

Musings from the SVG universe,
Francis


Ronan Oger wrote:
>
> More protection musings,
> 
> For most of us, there is no point in protecting the SVG markup. 
The only value 
> of the markup is that it generates a recognizable design and a 
behaviour, and 
> that can be stolen by copying the results, rather than going 
through the huge 
> trouble of understanding the markup details.
> 
> More I see SVG, less I understand why people want to 'protect' it. 
If we were 
> talking about high-grade artistic images or clipart, I might would 
understand 
> the reasoning. However, since most of us are talking about GUIs 
and web 
> applications with serverside componetns, I simply do not see the 
point. 
> 
> The hardest and most expensive work in application development is 
getting the 
> design and the usability right. The next hard bit is getting the 
backend to 
> do what you want.
> 
> The bit about painting the svg image with the svg markup is only 
interesting 
> right now because none of us have access to good  IDE's that do it 
for us.
> 
> But let's not lose perspective... Nobody really is going to take a 
complex 
> application and copy it by 'stealing' the svg.
> 
> The markup part of the GUI is but a tiny fraction of the value of 
the 
> application, and the fact that people need to know the tricks of 
getting the 
> SVG to paint what they want to show is exactly what is currently 
wrong with 
> SVG in commercial use. 
> 
> Take a look at how flex works... it uses an xml markup to declare 
application 
> behaviour. The rest of this is handled by a backend that generates 
its own 
> markup that nobody cares about. That's how it should be, and 
that's how it's 
> going to have to be for SVG before SVG becomes a widespread 
application 
> development markup.
> 
> By the way, do not over-estimate encryption... PDF's encryption is 
only 
> activated by readers that respect/implement the encryption. Other 
readers 
> simply show the content.
> 
> Ronan
> 
> On Saturday 12 November 2005 03:04, Francis Hemsher wrote:
> > Hi Alastair,
> >  Tossing ideas can be fun and creative.
> >  Protecting SVG, I believe is a possible goal. I don't quite 
know how
> >  to get there yet, but I'm working on it. I think this would be a
> >  neat feature for SVG.
> >
> >  I don't quite understand why dynamic SVG would be 'out the 
window'
> >  by using your suggestion. After, all, the viewer just wants a
> >  snapshot of what he sees in the browser. Can't we have some 
kinda
> >  WYSIWYG in the print?
> >
> >
> >  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Fettes"
> >
> >  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  > Just tossing out ideas now.
> >  >
> >  > This could be a way of protecting your SVG content.  Convert 
your
> >
> >  SVG
> >
> >  > graphics to PDF and encrypt, then return the output PDF.  
People
> >
> >  can
> >
> >  > view your SVG static graphics but not regain their source.  
This
> >
> >  would
> >
> >  > also lead to no cross-browser viewing issues.  Of course 
dynamic
> >
> >  SVG
> >
> >  > would be out the window with this one I'm afraid.
> >  >
> >  > Alastair
> >  >
> >  > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Fettes"
> >  >
> >  > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  > > Write yourself a simply client side script and server
> >
> >  application.  To
> >
> >  > > print get the user to click a button of some sort that 
calls a
> >
> >  ECMA
> >
> >  > > function that captures the current zoom level, what is 
visible -
> >
> >  the
> >
> >  > > current viewbox.  Take this and send it over a redirect URL 
to
> >
> >  your
> >
> >  > > server side application.  On the server side, have your
> >  > > php/jsp/whatever take this viewbox and set it on a copy of 
the
> >
> >  SVG
> >
> >  > > server side (in a variable in your app) and have a pre-
authored
> >
> >  XSL-FO
> >
> >  > > file that simply references the SVG.  Then convert this to 
PDF
> >
> >  with
> >
> >  > > FOP and redirect the user to the PDF.
> >  > >
> >

protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Francis Hemsher]

Hi Ronan,

Let's assume your SVG document is the result of much creative 
efforts: i.e., it is the product you are presenting.
Without some means of protecting viewing certain segments of that 
product, one can work backwards through that document, and rebuild 
the app.  

Therefore, by a strategy of encrypting random segments of the 
document, it would be almost impossible for someone to reconstuct 
it, and therefore use it to work back through its creation methods: 
There would not be a nice clean copy of the SVG document that would 
display so someone could begin their backward journey to uncover 
your wonderous efforts.

I don't loose sleep over this...I agree with you that the effort of 
working back through the app can be complex, even when the SVG 
document is fully present. However, with a just a tiny bit of 
encryption it can become much, much more difficult.

BTW, The best encryption method is one that exists within a "black 
velvet box" where its process is never defined...ever.

Musings from the SVG universe,
Francis


Ronan Oger wrote:
>
> More protection musings,
> 
> For most of us, there is no point in protecting the SVG markup. 
The only value 
> of the markup is that it generates a recognizable design and a 
behaviour, and 
> that can be stolen by copying the results, rather than going 
through the huge 
> trouble of understanding the markup details.
> 
> More I see SVG, less I understand why people want to 'protect' it. 
If we were 
> talking about high-grade artistic images or clipart, I might would 
understand 
> the reasoning. However, since most of us are talking about GUIs 
and web 
> applications with serverside componetns, I simply do not see the 
point. 
> 
> The hardest and most expensive work in application development is 
getting the 
> design and the usability right. The next hard bit is getting the 
backend to 
> do what you want.
> 
> The bit about painting the svg image with the svg markup is only 
interesting 
> right now because none of us have access to good  IDE's that do it 
for us.
> 
> But let's not lose perspective... Nobody really is going to take a 
complex 
> application and copy it by 'stealing' the svg.
> 
> The markup part of the GUI is but a tiny fraction of the value of 
the 
> application, and the fact that people need to know the tricks of 
getting the 
> SVG to paint what they want to show is exactly what is currently 
wrong with 
> SVG in commercial use. 
> 
> Take a look at how flex works... it uses an xml markup to declare 
application 
> behaviour. The rest of this is handled by a backend that generates 
its own 
> markup that nobody cares about. That's how it should be, and 
that's how it's 
> going to have to be for SVG before SVG becomes a widespread 
application 
> development markup.
> 
> By the way, do not over-estimate encryption... PDF's encryption is 
only 
> activated by readers that respect/implement the encryption. Other 
readers 
> simply show the content.
> 
> Ronan
> 
> On Saturday 12 November 2005 03:04, Francis Hemsher wrote:
> > Hi Alastair,
> >  Tossing ideas can be fun and creative.
> >  Protecting SVG, I believe is a possible goal. I don't quite 
know how
> >  to get there yet, but I'm working on it. I think this would be a
> >  neat feature for SVG.
> >
> >  I don't quite understand why dynamic SVG would be 'out the 
window'
> >  by using your suggestion. After, all, the viewer just wants a
> >  snapshot of what he sees in the browser. Can't we have some 
kinda
> >  WYSIWYG in the print?
> >
> >
> >  --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Fettes"
> >
> >  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  > Just tossing out ideas now.
> >  >
> >  > This could be a way of protecting your SVG content.  Convert 
your
> >
> >  SVG
> >
> >  > graphics to PDF and encrypt, then return the output PDF.  
People
> >
> >  can
> >
> >  > view your SVG static graphics but not regain their source.  
This
> >
> >  would
> >
> >  > also lead to no cross-browser viewing issues.  Of course 
dynamic
> >
> >  SVG
> >
> >  > would be out the window with this one I'm afraid.
> >  >
> >  > Alastair
> >  >
> >  > --- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Fettes"
> >  >
> >  > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  > > Write yourself a simply client side script and server
> >
> >  application.  To
> >
> >  > > print get the user to click a button of some sort that 
calls a
> >
> >  ECMA
> >
> >  > > function that captures the current zoom level, what is 
visible -
> >
> >  the
> >
> >  > > current viewbox.  Take this and send it over a redirect URL 
to
> >
> >  your
> >
> >  > > server side application.  On the server side, have your
> >  > > php/jsp/whatever take this viewbox and set it on a copy of 
the
> >
> >  SVG
> >
> >  > > server side (in a variable in your app) and have a pre-
authored
> >
> >  XSL-FO
> >
> >  > > file that simply references the SVG.  Then convert this to 
PDF
> >
> >  with
> >
> >  > > FOP and redirect the user to the PDF.
> >  > >
> >

protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Andreas Neumann]

Hi Jeroen,

digital watermarks is one way to approach the problem.

Another way is to reduce the accuracy and non-graphical attributes in the 
presentation.

If you generate SVGs out of spatial databases you can "filter" your data to 
reduce the accuracy (reduce the number of vertices). Each time the user zooms 
or pans he'll just get a customized view of the data which is never at full 
resolution.

To illustrate what I mean, you can have a look at the Yosemite Mapping Project: 
http://www.carto.net/williams/yosemite/ - the content is always customized to 
the map extent and the user never sees the full-res data.

Also, you don't have to add all important non-graphical attributes of the 
original GIS data when you generate the SVG, f.e. you don't have to add 
topological information or non-graphical attributes you don't need for the 
display.

The value of GIS data is not only in the graphics, but in the information as a 
whole.

Andreas

--- In svg-developers@yahoogroups.com, Jeroen Vanattenhoven  wrote:
>
> Ronan Oger schreef:
> > Are you using GIS data or SVG pictures of the GIS model?
> We use SVG conversions of Shape files. We altered the layers of the map, 
> and will add additional information to the map (and interactivity).
> > SVG is a model of a picture, whereas GIS is a model of geographic data.
> > 
> > A picture of a car is not the same as the engineering drawing of a car. And 
a 
> > screenshot of an Autocad drawing does not give away the car CAD drawing. 
> > There is loss in the conversion process, and the same happens with GIS->SVG 
> > transformation.
> I'm wondering if the result of the conversion (svg picture) is not 
> important? It still contains some geographic data: rivers, borders, 
> roads, ... . As I've read here,
> some GIS companies probably insert a watermark (to the coordinates of 
> the river, border and road elements?). That would be very useful in my 
> opinion.
> > Ronan
> Jeroen
> 
> Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm
>







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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Jeroen Vanattenhoven]

Ronan Oger schreef:
> More protection musings,
> 
> For most of us, there is no point in protecting the SVG markup. The only 
> value 
> of the markup is that it generates a recognizable design and a behaviour, and 
> that can be stolen by copying the results, rather than going through the huge 
> trouble of understanding the markup details.
> 
> More I see SVG, less I understand why people want to 'protect' it. If we were 
> talking about high-grade artistic images or clipart, I might would understand 
> the reasoning. However, since most of us are talking about GUIs and web 
> applications with serverside componetns, I simply do not see the point. 

What about GIS data? Currently there are a lot of GIS projects using 
SVG. I can imagine that GIS companies would like to protect their data.

Jeroen

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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Jeroen Vanattenhoven]

In projects our research group is working on, there are GIS companies 
involved. So when we get there data (in Shape format), there is already 
a watermark present?

Robin Berjon schreef:
> On Nov 14, 2005, at 10:31, Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:
> 
> 
>>What about GIS data? Currently there are a lot of GIS projects using
>>SVG. I can imagine that GIS companies would like to protect their  
>>data.
>>
> 
> 
> Once again, hiding access to the code does not protect your GIS data.  
> GIS companies have a long experience protecting the data they ship,  
> notably using some form of watermarking (often by introducing small  
> errors in the output). It was always easy to steal GIS data by having  
> a few fast "small hands" reproduce it based on a printed map, using  
> SVG adds nothing new (and using a binary format won't help either,  
> for instance it's quite trivial to get data out of a SWF file).  
> However whichever the means you use, if you use it widely you'll get  
> caught by the watermarks, because they'll show no matter whether you  
> took the data by copying a printed map, munging an SVG document, or  
> running a vector tracing program on a GIF.
> 

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RE: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Doug Schepers]

Hi, Jeroen-

Jeroen  Vanattenhoven wrote:
|
| In projects our research group is working on, there are GIS 
| companies involved. So when we get there data (in Shape 
| format), there is already a watermark present?

You should ask your data providers about that. Even so, you should put your
own in there, so that you can protect your own investment and liability.

Regards-
Doug

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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Jeroen Vanattenhoven]

Doug Schepers schreef:
> You should ask your data providers about that. Even so, you should put your
> own in there, so that you can protect your own investment and liability.

This is a paper which was presented at Enschede (I saw the 
presentation): http://www.svgopen.org/2005/papers/firemark/. Is this the 
way to do that, or are there other (better) ways?

Jeroen

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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Jeroen Vanattenhoven]

Ronan Oger schreef:
> Are you using GIS data or SVG pictures of the GIS model?
We use SVG conversions of Shape files. We altered the layers of the map, 
and will add additional information to the map (and interactivity).
> SVG is a model of a picture, whereas GIS is a model of geographic data.
> 
> A picture of a car is not the same as the engineering drawing of a car. And a 
> screenshot of an Autocad drawing does not give away the car CAD drawing. 
> There is loss in the conversion process, and the same happens with GIS->SVG 
> transformation.
I'm wondering if the result of the conversion (svg picture) is not 
important? It still contains some geographic data: rivers, borders, 
roads, ... . As I've read here,
some GIS companies probably insert a watermark (to the coordinates of 
the river, border and road elements?). That would be very useful in my 
opinion.
> Ronan
Jeroen

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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Ronan Oger]

>
>  I'm wondering if the result of the conversion (svg picture) is not
>  important? It still contains some geographic data: rivers, borders,
>  roads, ... . As I've read here,
>  some GIS companies probably insert a watermark (to the coordinates of
>  the river, border and road elements?). That would be very useful in my
>  opinion.
>

The existance of the features does have value, but not the same value as the 
position of the features, or the interconnectivity of the features.

The cost/benefit relationship of leaving the original GIS data unscaled and 
unmolested when rendered into SVG is something that the SVG authors need to 
take into account when deciding what to show, and how to show it.

Of course, it is possible to dump the entire GIS data model at 100% accuracy, 
into an SVG drawing. However, this is where the line is drawn between what is 
possible, and what is a bad idea in business. There is a reason why colour 
photocopier machines do not actually provide 1:1 copying... To prevent 
forgery of paper currency. To prevent 1:1 copying was a business decision by 
the photocopier vendors  prompted by governments.

In fact, I propose to you that if an SVG application were to provide 100% of a 
commercial GIS model with 100% accuracy, the SVG application vendor would 
find themeselves in breach of contract for reselling the data model where 
they only have a license to display it.

Ronan



>  > Ronan
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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Andre M. Winter - Carto.net]

hi,

it is a common practice in mapping to introduce errors in maps and GIS 
datasets in order to recognize them later as yours. there is no 
difference between desktop maps and paper maps.

but i don't think that it makes sense to laboriously scramble your data. 
the main problem is that after import, re-export, coordinate system 
transformation etc. it will be difficult to find the way back to some 
algorithm. it  is far better and easier to tile your data and send it 
out in some unknown projection and coordinate system. that way 
fraudulent people may only able to fit the tiles together and guess the 
underlaying coordinate system. this process is as stupid and time 
consuming as scanning and digitizing paper maps, so few people will do 
that. of couse, all this requires intelligent server side solutions.

on the other hand you are right: there is always a way of getting some 
valuable information out of SVG files on the internet. but anything can 
be stolen and reused...

--  

André M. Winter 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.

-   
Austria  
Phone: +43 5234 32732





Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:
> Ronan Oger schreef:
>   
>> Are you using GIS data or SVG pictures of the GIS model?
>> 
> We use SVG conversions of Shape files. We altered the layers of the map, 
> and will add additional information to the map (and interactivity).
>   
>> SVG is a model of a picture, whereas GIS is a model of geographic data.
>>
>> A picture of a car is not the same as the engineering drawing of a car. And 
>> a 
>> screenshot of an Autocad drawing does not give away the car CAD drawing. 
>> There is loss in the conversion process, and the same happens with GIS->SVG 
>> transformation.
>> 
> I'm wondering if the result of the conversion (svg picture) is not 
> important? It still contains some geographic data: rivers, borders, 
> roads, ... . As I've read here,
> some GIS companies probably insert a watermark (to the coordinates of 
> the river, border and road elements?). That would be very useful in my 
> opinion.
>   
>> Ronan



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RE: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Randy George]

Hi,

It is interesting to note from the discussion that vectors are
implicitly regarded as a much higher value than imagery ala Google, Yahoo,
MapQuest etc Theft is not a significant problem to their services partly
because images are less valuable than vectors and but even more because the
service cost benefit dwarfs the cost of any effort to steal the data.

Vectors are more valuable:
The ongoing web services standards at OGC have provided OWS specs
for both imagery WMS/WCS and vectors WFS, but there are still few public WFS
services currently available (relative to WMS). GIS data as public
infrastructure gains considerable value when published in vectors i.e. WFS.
Public GIS data services provided by governments (US Census, USGS, NOAA,
BTT, FEMA  etc) would greatly enhance data value/utility by publishing
vector WFS. This in turn increases the value of SVG since it is the
best/only open vector standard for the rendering part of public data chains:
Spatial database => OWS/WFS => browser/SVG

Service is even more valuable:
SVG rendering though only provides a small view at a time of the
underlying model and there is little value in scraping the location vectors
from the svg browser to attempt a reconstruction of the whole model. Why do
it since you would need to laboriously recreate and maintain a massive GIS
data structure? Better to pay a license fee or put up with advertising
aggravation for the benefit of the well maintained universal coverage on a
service provider's hardware. 
For example even though it is possible to download every tile of
every level of GoogleMap and steal their data why do it? The cost of
downloading and maintaining on locally purchased hardware far outweighs the
cost of using GoogleMap (especially since it works on the advertisement
model). 

Solution: less concern about protecting data and more attention to a
low service cost/benefit ratio.

Looking forward to public WFS services

randy


-Original Message-
From: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Andre M. Winter - Carto.net
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 6:30 AM
To: svg-developers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect
SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

hi,

it is a common practice in mapping to introduce errors in maps and GIS 
datasets in order to recognize them later as yours. there is no 
difference between desktop maps and paper maps.

but i don't think that it makes sense to laboriously scramble your data. 
the main problem is that after import, re-export, coordinate system 
transformation etc. it will be difficult to find the way back to some 
algorithm. it  is far better and easier to tile your data and send it 
out in some unknown projection and coordinate system. that way 
fraudulent people may only able to fit the tiles together and guess the 
underlaying coordinate system. this process is as stupid and time 
consuming as scanning and digitizing paper maps, so few people will do 
that. of couse, all this requires intelligent server side solutions.

on the other hand you are right: there is always a way of getting some 
valuable information out of SVG files on the internet. but anything can 
be stolen and reused...

--  

André M. Winter 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.

-   
Austria  
Phone: +43 5234 32732





Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:
> Ronan Oger schreef:
>   
>> Are you using GIS data or SVG pictures of the GIS model?
>> 
> We use SVG conversions of Shape files. We altered the layers of the map, 
> and will add additional information to the map (and interactivity).
>   
>> SVG is a model of a picture, whereas GIS is a model of geographic data.
>>
>> A picture of a car is not the same as the engineering drawing of a car.
And a 
>> screenshot of an Autocad drawing does not give away the car CAD drawing. 
>> There is loss in the conversion process, and the same happens with
GIS->SVG 
>> transformation.
>> 
> I'm wondering if the result of the conversion (svg picture) is not 
> important? It still contains some geographic data: rivers, borders, 
> roads, ... . As I've read here,
> some GIS companies probably insert a watermark (to the coordinates of 
> the river, border and road elements?). That would be very useful in my 
> opinion.
>   
>> Ronan




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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Ronan Oger]

On Monday 14 November 2005 09:31, Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:
> > More I see SVG, less I understand why people want to 'protect' it. If we
> > were
> >
>  > talking about high-grade artistic images or clipart, I might would
>  > understand the reasoning. However, since most of us are talking about
>  > GUIs and web applications with serverside componetns, I simply do not
>  > see the point.
>
>  What about GIS data? Currently there are a lot of GIS projects using
>  SVG. I can imagine that GIS companies would like to protect their data.
>
>  Jeroen

Jeroen,

SVG does not have to contain GIS data. GIS data is about geospatial features, 
wheras SVG is about 2-d image rendering.

Normal GIS data is stored in its own format, then transformed to SVG. Because 
of this, the GIS data is degraded when it is rendered as SVG because it has 
been transformed.

Ronan

-- 

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[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Ronan Oger]

On Monday 14 November 2005 10:05, Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:
> In projects our research group is working on, there are GIS companies
>  involved. So when we get there data (in Shape format), there is already
>  a watermark present?
>
Jeroen,

Are you using GIS data or SVG pictures of the GIS model?

SVG is a model of a picture, whereas GIS is a model of geographic data.

A picture of a car is not the same as the engineering drawing of a car. And a 
screenshot of an Autocad drawing does not give away the car CAD drawing. 
There is loss in the conversion process, and the same happens with GIS->SVG 
transformation.

Ronan

-- 

Ronan Oger
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
www.vectoreal.com ...for scalable solutions.

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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Robin Berjon]

On Nov 14, 2005, at 10:31, Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:

> What about GIS data? Currently there are a lot of GIS projects using
> SVG. I can imagine that GIS companies would like to protect their  
> data.
>

Once again, hiding access to the code does not protect your GIS data.  
GIS companies have a long experience protecting the data they ship,  
notably using some form of watermarking (often by introducing small  
errors in the output). It was always easy to steal GIS data by having  
a few fast "small hands" reproduce it based on a printed map, using  
SVG adds nothing new (and using a binary format won't help either,  
for instance it's quite trivial to get data out of a SWF file).  
However whichever the means you use, if you use it widely you'll get  
caught by the watermarks, because they'll show no matter whether you  
took the data by copying a printed map, munging an SVG document, or  
running a vector tracing program on a GIF.

-- 
Robin Berjon
Senior Research Scientist
Expway, http://expway.com/






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Re: protecting SVG is pointless - was Re: [svg-developers] Protect SVG - Was Re: Today's Joke: Printing SVG in IE

[Darryl Watson]

SVG is an open format, by design, so it is the wrong technology to use 
if you want to hide your data.

Jeroen Vanattenhoven wrote:

> What about GIS data? Currently there are a lot of GIS projects using
> SVG. I can imagine that GIS companies would like to protect their data.
>
> Jeroen
>

-- 

Darryl Watson 

Senior Software Developer

 

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