Re: [SWCollect] 1983 IBM educational titles

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

"Lee K. Seitz" wrote:
> 
> The best I came up with were some 1983 & 1985 IBM educational titles:
> Bumble Games, Monster Math, Missing Letters, and Primary Editor.
> They're all in the nice grayish-beige plastic cases with the manuals,
> but only BG and PE have the original disks.  (The others have copies.)
> I didn't have any money on me, but asked the guy about them anyway.
> He said I could have them because they were just going to throw them
> out.  Are these worth anything to anybody?  Don't worry, Jim, I'll
> enter the appropriate ones in MobyGames eventually.  I see one or two
> are already there.  I also got a shrinkwrapped copy of MS-DOS 5.0 for
> free.  (There were several.)

Two of them are already in Moby.

I don't think they're worth very much, but I'm glad you found something
for free ;-)

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[SWCollect] 1983 IBM educational titles

2001-11-16 Thread Lee K. Seitz

Well I had an interesting lunch today.  A friend had spotted a message
in a thread in the local newsgroup (yes, my city has it's own Usenet
newsgroup) about some place full of surplus computers.  So today,
three of us went to check it out.  As I said, it was very interesting.

After we finally found the place (no sign), we went in and asked if we
could look around.  They said sure.  The building is pretty much all
warehouse, with some unfinshed office space up front.  Most of it was
filled with pallets of wrapped monitors.  Each pallet was labeled with
a 8.5"x11" piece of paper computer printed with big letters (e.g. 
Working 17" monitors, Non-working 14" monitors).  There were also
stacks and huge boxes of other stuff.

It seems they recycle or resell all this stuff.  The guy there said
they had a big order of monitors ready to be shipped to Africa (or was
it South America?).  In the back, we found a huge box full of nothing
but pins snipped off capacitors and other electronic components.  When
I say huge, I mean I tried moving it just to see how heavy it was.  I
couldn't budge it!

The computers appeared to be mostly 486s and such.  We saw a fair
smattering of various older (pre-Quadra, I think) Mac models, one
original PC (or maybe it was an XT, I couldn't tell), an Apple II+, a
couple Sun Sparc pieces, and I forget what else.  Also, an ancient
tape drive that we all agreed would make a great display piece
somewhere.  (I thought it would make a nice, if small, coffee table.
Maybe an end table would have been more appropriate.)  There were some
partially stripped racks of telco equipment outside.

Anyway, to bring this on topic, in the very back, I found some boxes
of software.  Many slipcased copies of IBM Basic 3.0.  I thought I'd
finally found something when I saw a box that said Epyx, but it turned
out to be some print program (a la Print Shop, which I also found
copies of).

The best I came up with were some 1983 & 1985 IBM educational titles: 
Bumble Games, Monster Math, Missing Letters, and Primary Editor. 
They're all in the nice grayish-beige plastic cases with the manuals,
but only BG and PE have the original disks.  (The others have copies.)
I didn't have any money on me, but asked the guy about them anyway.
He said I could have them because they were just going to throw them
out.  Are these worth anything to anybody?  Don't worry, Jim, I'll
enter the appropriate ones in MobyGames eventually.  I see one or two
are already there.  I also got a shrinkwrapped copy of MS-DOS 5.0 for
free.  (There were several.) 

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

"Lee K. Seitz" wrote:
> 
> Jim Leonard boldly stated:
> >
> >- Dot-matrix printer drivers would simulate higher resolution by
> >"overprinting" (printing once, then half a pixel over, then half a pixel
> >down, then half a pixel down and over) -- could simulate ~300 DPI on a
> >9-pin dot matrix printer
> 
> Sounds very slow.  Was it?

It was -- and quite noisy.  But the quality jump was well worth it.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (was shock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Hugh Falk wrote:
> 
> By the late 80's hard drives were common on STs and Amigas (I had two).  The
> problem with games is that the copy protection often kept you from
> installing them on a hard drive (on all platforms).  That's why code wheels,
> page numbers, etc. became so popular.  I hated them, but it was worth
> getting hard drive speed.  Jim, you're right...load times off floppy were
> just horriblethough still a lot better than cassettes in the C-64 days
> :-).  What I really hated was when they had disk copy protection and a code
> wheel!

ACK, I don't think I've ever had the pleasure of crack^H^H^H^H^Hrunning
any of those.

The most elegant codewheel copy-protection I've ever seen had to be
Rocket Ranger.  The code wheel that came with the game was necessary to
play it -- to travel from one country to another, you had to enter in
both source and destination and the amount of fuel needed to get from
here to there was what you stuck in your rocket pack for the flight. 
You couldn't just "disable" the code wheel code, or you'd disable the
entire game.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> From: "Jim Leonard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Consoles have had 3D on the horizon long, long before 3D accelerated
> > cards arrived for the PC
> 
> I'm not arguing about 3D accelerators, I'm talking about 3D games (Wing
> Commander, Ultima Underworld, Wolfenstein, Doom et al).  Granted they aren't
> 3D from a processing standpoint, but they are 3D from a gameplay standpoint.
> And this is the big issue, would consoles have converted to hardware
> allowing this kind of game experience so readily had the PC not made it part
> of the gaming publics desires?  I mean, who would have thought prior to
> Underworld that first person gaming could be a lot of fun (Sorry, but Total
> Eclipse just put me to sleep... nice effort, but...).  Granted there were 3D
> flight sims int he past, but most tried to be complex instead of console
> style action.

Now that I understand your point, I'm still not sure I agree.  3D games
for home computers have existed as early as 1983 in great supply
(Battlezone, Stellar 7, Starglider, Elite) and I didn't see any true 3D
console games until, what, Hard Drivin' for the Lynx in 1990?  

If you're saying that the success of Wolfenstein and Doom had an impact,
yes, they had an impact -- but I don't think it was an
industry-shattering impact.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer

2001-11-16 Thread Lee K. Seitz

Jim Leonard boldly stated:
>
>- Dot-matrix printer drivers would simulate higher resolution by
>"overprinting" (printing once, then half a pixel over, then half a pixel
>down, then half a pixel down and over) -- could simulate ~300 DPI on a
>9-pin dot matrix printer

Sounds very slow.  Was it?

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (was shock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Karl Kuras

From: "Hugh Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> By the late 80's hard drives were common on STs and Amigas (I had two).

They may have been common here in the states, but over in Europe (where the
bulk of Amiga users and games were) barely anyone had them.  Most of the
kids I went to high school with had Amigas and I can't recall a single one
of them having an HD (heck only one of them had more then 1MB RAM in their
system).  The reason the machine was popular was it's cheapness and that
meant things like HD's fell by the wayside.  The most popular games on the
Amiga tended to be small, like Cannon Fodder and Settlers which were only 3
disks each.

Karl Kuras
Visit Our House the online comic strip!
http://ourhouse.trantornator.com


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RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

No...a patch for our PS2 games was never discussed as an option.  If
something disastrous were to happen, we would have to recall I'm sure...it
would have been horrible.  Our QA effort was tremendous, and it is certainly
possible to create bug free (or acceptable bug-only) games even with today's
complex games.  However, that is one of the joys of the console...fixed
hardware configuration (relatively).  On the PC this is much more difficult,
but it is often the game developer/publisher who pulls the plug on further
QA for financial reasons...it is their choice to ship a buggy game...not the
fault of the OS or the hardware.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 12:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock


Pedro Quaresma wrote:
>
> >I'm not entirely sure I'd call Gates a gangster or snake-oil salesman --
> >that's Balmer's job and always has been.  :-)
>
> Even before he became CEO? What did he do before?

Biz guy.  It's always been his job to wheel and deal.

> >My only real lament with the rise of Microsoft is two-fold:
>
> >1. People have come to expect buggy software, multiple releases/patches,
> >and frequent crashing.  It has become acceptable.
>
> Never thought of it that way, but that's the way things go nowadays, and
> it's not about OSes only. Games are following the same path. Does anyone
> remember a game released after 1998 that had no need for a patch? Me
> neither.

But I *do* remember when this kind of stuff simply didn't happen.  I
also recognize that products were simpler back then, and the OS/hardware
platform was much simpler, but it's still frustrating.

I'm curious to get Hugh's opinion on this:  When developing for the PS2,
were "later game patches" even an *option* like they are partially a
*requirement* for PC games?

> >2. Geoworks Ensemble never got the recognition it deserved.
>
> >The above is what really, really depresses me, especially Geoworks.
>
> Geoworks Ensamble? Please explain. I'd like once again to add #3

Old C64 and Apple freaks will remember Geos, which was an astonishing
WYSIWYG GUI for word processing and general operation of the computer.
When Geos decided to port this to the IBM, they came up with a
GUI/operating environment that completely blew away Windows, even
Windows 3.0.  It had, amongst other features:

- Full automatic virtual memory support (used EMS, XMS, high, UMB, and
un-managed free RAM in addition to an automatic swap file)
- Display postscript (!!!) and all printer drivers rasterized the
postscript so you didn't need a postscript printer to print what you
created
- Bundled drawing program was vectors, not bitmap
- Dot-matrix printer drivers would simulate higher resolution by
"overprinting" (printing once, then half a pixel over, then half a pixel
down, then half a pixel down and over) -- could simulate ~300 DPI on a
9-pin dot matrix printer
- Interface was based on the established Motif GUI and featured
detachable menus (use the File menu often?  Tear it off and keep it next
to you)
- Program code and memory allocations were all in blocks of 64K or less,
which not only kept Geoworks Ensemble compatible with real-mode CPUs
like 8088/8086 but also allowed for very efficient and granular use of
RAM.
- If you wanted to run a DOS program, it would single-task itself out of
RAM down to a 3K footprint to run the DOS program

.and all this ran on ANY PC with at least 512K RAM and a hard disk in
1990 (and a mouse, preferably, although not required).

I swear I am not making this up!  Geoworks had their best chance at
mainstream success when Packard Bell installed it by default on all
their machines in 1991 instead of Windows, but Microsoft threatened
massive price gouging so they stopped doing it.  Geoworks also didn't
help their own situation; it took a very long time for the native
Geoworks version of Lotus 1-2-3 to come out (you could run regular DOS
Lotus 1-2-3 of course) which a lot of people were waiting for... they
waited too long and 3.1 conquered the market.

> 3. There's a solid, free, open source, nearly bug-free, easy to use,
> extremely stable, etc OS out there (Linux of course) and the number of
> people using it is still almost irrelevant, because most prefer any
> expensive and full of bugs version of Windows.

That's not a true statement.  People don't *want* to use a buggy OS, but
the applications they want to use forces them to.  I only use Windows
for multimedia authoring (something Linux simply cannot do) and 3D
games.

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RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

But the Mac wouldn't have been a failing system with Microsoft as an ally
(instead of competition).  The Apple was on its way to being HUGE when it
was undercut by Microsoft.  Maybe OS/2 would have had a chance without
Windows though.

Don't get me wrong...I was one of the BIGGEST Commodore and Atari supporters
at the time (rivaling Pedro's support for Linux :-)  However, those
companies didn't know what to do (and frankly didn't have the resources) to
make their products mainstream.

You're probably right about consoles...the PC really pushed them to 3D.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Karl Kuras [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock


From: "Hugh Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Apple would be #1, DOS would be where Apple is today (Maybe with GEM or
> Geoworks as the shell), and Atari/Commodore (sadly) would be where they
are
> today.

I don't know if Commodore would be where it is now had it not been for
Windows... granted they were falling behind the technology curve, but in
92-93 (what I see as the true end of the Amiga) the Mac was a falling
system, which wouldn't recover until the iMac realease at the end of the
decade.  So, with no competition from MS the only gaming machine alternative
would ahve been Amiga... granted Europe would have gone with it, and
development would have been much slower (we'd probably just now be looking
at games like Duke Nukem and Quake) but still, it would have become the
standard.

This is a good question as well... would consoles have developed as quickly
without the PC pushing 3D? If you look at it, consoles didn't even think of
3D until the PC was doing it and then in only very limited ways, granted 3D
is expensive, but it wasn't even part of the program had 3D gaming not
been done on the PC, would anyone have demanded 3D on consoles?  Sega
obviously didn't expect it when designing the Saturn.

Karl Kuras
Visit Our House the online comic strip!
http://ourhouse.trantornator.com


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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games(wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> >2)  I RARELY crash.  I'm using Windows Me.
> 
> Worst OS ever :)
> 
> >Going through normal use
> >(Outlook, Word, Excel, FrontPage, various shareware utilities, and a bunch
> >of games) I might have a crash once every couple of weeks.  This is
> >acceptable to me.
> 
> This may sound strange for regular Windows users, but Linux hasn't crashed
> on me since 1998.

Not *once*?  Methinks you're lying.  The 2.0 kernels were hardly stable
-- either that, or you rebooted all the time before it had a chance to
crash.  That's cheating ;-)

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games(wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> Who knows where we would be if Windows never existed? We could be using for
> example AmigaOS, which handled multitasking better than most other OSes. Or

At the time, it was the only mainstream multitasking OS so I'm not sure
what you're comparing it with.  Hopefully not today's multitasking OSes
(Linux, OS/2, Windows) because it was nothing more than round-robin
timeslices (just like Windows 9x).

> MacOS which is even "easier" to use than Windows. Or Linux, BeOS, BSD, VAX
> (god forbid! ;) )

If you're saying that the Amiga's OS multitasked better than Linux or
BeOS, you haven't done your research properly.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games(wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> You never had to configure anything in Windows? Reduce a bit your sound
> card acceleration? Tweak around with your gfx card settings?

What the heck is "reducing sound card accleration?"

I only tweak GFX if I'm trying to overclock and get better performance
:)
 
> >But to suggest as you did in a previous post that
> >Linux makes plug and play easier, well yes, you will get your soundcard
> >recognized, but will your programs (aka games) recognize it?
> 
> Sure. Haven't you ever played a game in Linux? I could surprise you with
> some data. Quake 2 in Linux is way faster than same machine running Quake 2

It is not "way" faster.  I don't consider 3-5fps "way" faster.

> in Windows. Better yet, Quake 2 for Windows on a Windows emulator in Linux
> is faster than Quake 2 in Windows! Interesting, isn't it?

In software rendering, yes.  But people don't play Q2 in software.

Let me ask you this:  What games *other* than Quake (and Civ3, and Myth)
can we play in Linux?  Especially now that Loki has bit the dust?

(silence)

Okay, are we done arguing about which OS is better than the other for
gaming?  It's a pointless argument.  Consoles whip all computer
platforms anyway since they never crash and never have compatibility
issues.
 
> >On the issue of crashing... all I can say is that Dos machines didn't
> crash
> >as much because they weren't doing as much!  Spec your windows system down
> >to the bare minimum and only run one program at a time, with no lan
> >connections or anything running, and believe me it won't crash either.
> 
> But you can run Linux with everything running and all services on, and it

..and the game will run, but pause for a few seconds every minute while
some process decides that it really really needs Ring 0 access in the
kernel.  Come on, choose your priorities dude!

> won't crash. In the worst possible event, X will crash but not the OS, so

And that's acceptable?

I'm just saying you should choose your battles wisely.  If you were
arguing for Linux as a server OS, I'd roll out the red carpet and step
aside.  But gaming isn't one of those platforms you should debate on.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games(wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> But this wasn't not a DOS vs Windows issue. If Windows had never existed we
> would be much better with other stable OSes out there. And we'd still have
> games.

Be careful in your advocacy -- Linux has only recently earned the
"stable" moniker.  SVGAlib used to bring your entire system down if you
didn't compile in the right chipset, for goodness' sake -- this is no
different than Windows' "instability" if you have the wrong driver for
your video card.  Stability comes with age and/or good design.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> never had to reset any of my system configurations (with the exception of 16
> bit or 32 bit color... hate when a game won't accept 32bit color... anyone
> know what the problem is with that from a coding stand point?) for a windows
> program... it just runs.

Laziness or arrogance -- usually both.  There isn't any legit reason why
you should have to screw with your desktop color depth to run a game.
 
> On the issue of crashing... all I can say is that Dos machines didn't crash
> as much because they weren't doing as much!  Spec your windows system down
> to the bare minimum and only run one program at a time, with no lan
> connections or anything running, and believe me it won't crash either.

..if some errant program hasn't "updated" a system component to the
point of non-compatibility.  This *can* be blamed on Microsoft (and not
the program) because it's their architecture that makes "updates"
necessary.  It's a flawed design.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games(wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> Memmaker was not optimal. I could get better results by configuring
> config.sys & autoexec.bat myself, usually involving, IIRC,
> shadowing/unshadowing memory and other interesting tricks.
> I remember I used to get more than 600k base memory even with sound card
> and CD-ROM drivers loaded. Later on, with RDosUmb, 610+ was possible even
> with smartdrive loaded.

One of the reasons I purchased all QEMM versions from 6.x onward is
because I didn't have to even THINK about optimization and I got 620K
free DOS RAM.  If I got paranoid, THEN I brought out my mad tweaking
skillz (my record is 628k free) but for the most part I loved QEMM --
brilliant product.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (was shock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Hugh Falk wrote:
> 
> I'm not thrilled with everything about Windows; however, as a gamer...I
> don't see how you can't think Windows 95 and later made life MUCH better.
> Once Win 95 was adopted by game developers, and games were written (well)
> under it, gaming became so much easier.  I still remember the bad old days
> of having multiple boot disks, QEMM, and a reconfig programugh...that
> was really a crappy way to game (having come from the ST, Amiga, Mac world).

Yeah, but for that simplicity (I'm assuming you liked just having to
stick the disk in and boot on those platforms) you sacrificed being able
to load games on your hard disk.  Not defending the IBM PC in this area;
just making a counter-point.  Loading games on Mac/ST/Amiga also took at
least twice as long as on IBM clones of the time due to the hard disk.

> Once 95 became the standard, things for gamers got much better...peripherals
> (rudder pedals, steering wheels, etc) also become much easier to deal
> with...gotta love Plug and Play.  To me, it sounds like another example of
> the "good old days" not being that good.  Certainly from a gamer's
> perspective.

My problem with today's Plug'n'Play devices is that they only work under
Windows.  I feel like that has locked me out of other platforms that are
just as viable for gaming.

Console gaming has become a lot more enticing recently.  I still haven't
seen anything that beats my 1GHz Athlon with GeForce 3 TI 500, but the
*types* of games you can get on consoles is appealing.  Just my $0.02...

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Jim Leonard

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> >I'm not entirely sure I'd call Gates a gangster or snake-oil salesman --
> >that's Balmer's job and always has been.  :-)
> 
> Even before he became CEO? What did he do before?

Biz guy.  It's always been his job to wheel and deal.
 
> >My only real lament with the rise of Microsoft is two-fold:
> 
> >1. People have come to expect buggy software, multiple releases/patches,
> >and frequent crashing.  It has become acceptable.
> 
> Never thought of it that way, but that's the way things go nowadays, and
> it's not about OSes only. Games are following the same path. Does anyone
> remember a game released after 1998 that had no need for a patch? Me
> neither.

But I *do* remember when this kind of stuff simply didn't happen.  I
also recognize that products were simpler back then, and the OS/hardware
platform was much simpler, but it's still frustrating.  

I'm curious to get Hugh's opinion on this:  When developing for the PS2,
were "later game patches" even an *option* like they are partially a
*requirement* for PC games?
 
> >2. Geoworks Ensemble never got the recognition it deserved.
> 
> >The above is what really, really depresses me, especially Geoworks.
> 
> Geoworks Ensamble? Please explain. I'd like once again to add #3

Old C64 and Apple freaks will remember Geos, which was an astonishing
WYSIWYG GUI for word processing and general operation of the computer. 
When Geos decided to port this to the IBM, they came up with a
GUI/operating environment that completely blew away Windows, even
Windows 3.0.  It had, amongst other features:

- Full automatic virtual memory support (used EMS, XMS, high, UMB, and
un-managed free RAM in addition to an automatic swap file)
- Display postscript (!!!) and all printer drivers rasterized the
postscript so you didn't need a postscript printer to print what you
created
- Bundled drawing program was vectors, not bitmap
- Dot-matrix printer drivers would simulate higher resolution by
"overprinting" (printing once, then half a pixel over, then half a pixel
down, then half a pixel down and over) -- could simulate ~300 DPI on a
9-pin dot matrix printer
- Interface was based on the established Motif GUI and featured
detachable menus (use the File menu often?  Tear it off and keep it next
to you)
- Program code and memory allocations were all in blocks of 64K or less,
which not only kept Geoworks Ensemble compatible with real-mode CPUs
like 8088/8086 but also allowed for very efficient and granular use of
RAM.  
- If you wanted to run a DOS program, it would single-task itself out of
RAM down to a 3K footprint to run the DOS program

..and all this ran on ANY PC with at least 512K RAM and a hard disk in
1990 (and a mouse, preferably, although not required).  

I swear I am not making this up!  Geoworks had their best chance at
mainstream success when Packard Bell installed it by default on all
their machines in 1991 instead of Windows, but Microsoft threatened
massive price gouging so they stopped doing it.  Geoworks also didn't
help their own situation; it took a very long time for the native
Geoworks version of Lotus 1-2-3 to come out (you could run regular DOS
Lotus 1-2-3 of course) which a lot of people were waiting for... they
waited too long and 3.1 conquered the market.
 
> 3. There's a solid, free, open source, nearly bug-free, easy to use,
> extremely stable, etc OS out there (Linux of course) and the number of
> people using it is still almost irrelevant, because most prefer any
> expensive and full of bugs version of Windows.

That's not a true statement.  People don't *want* to use a buggy OS, but
the applications they want to use forces them to.  I only use Windows
for multimedia authoring (something Linux simply cannot do) and 3D
games.

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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Karl Kuras

From: "Hugh Falk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Apple would be #1, DOS would be where Apple is today (Maybe with GEM or
> Geoworks as the shell), and Atari/Commodore (sadly) would be where they
are
> today.

I don't know if Commodore would be where it is now had it not been for
Windows... granted they were falling behind the technology curve, but in
92-93 (what I see as the true end of the Amiga) the Mac was a falling
system, which wouldn't recover until the iMac realease at the end of the
decade.  So, with no competition from MS the only gaming machine alternative
would ahve been Amiga... granted Europe would have gone with it, and
development would have been much slower (we'd probably just now be looking
at games like Duke Nukem and Quake) but still, it would have become the
standard.

This is a good question as well... would consoles have developed as quickly
without the PC pushing 3D? If you look at it, consoles didn't even think of
3D until the PC was doing it and then in only very limited ways, granted 3D
is expensive, but it wasn't even part of the program had 3D gaming not
been done on the PC, would anyone have demanded 3D on consoles?  Sega
obviously didn't expect it when designing the Saturn.

Karl Kuras
Visit Our House the online comic strip!
http://ourhouse.trantornator.com


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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


I know I have downloaded one because Pirates! Gold for Windows only works
with 256 colors too... wait, lemme check...

OK, here it is: http://www.berend.com/qres.html

It's calleed QRes and lets you choose a resolution for a specific program
you run. Not sure on which Windows versions it works though, but will try
running it on XP, very very soon.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"


   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
  "Lee K. Seitz"   
 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
 
   
 
   
 
  16/11/01 16:01   
 
   
 
  Solicita-se resposta a   
 
  swcollect  Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
 
  A/C: 
 
  Ref: 
 
  cc:  
 
Assunto: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue 
(was Killer Games (was Soccer 
Games  
 
   
 



Pedro Quaresma boldly stated:
>
>>I have
>>never had to reset any of my system configurations (with the exception of
>16
>>bit or 32 bit color... hate when a game won't accept 32bit color...
anyone
>>know what the problem is with that from a coding stand point?)
>
>No idea, but there are programs out there that let you "trick" the game
>into thinking you're using another screen mode.

There are?  Know any by name?  The Activision Atari 2600 Action Packs
only work in 256-color mode.  (Bleah!)

--
Lee K. Seitz  *  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  *  http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/
   Wanted:  Vintage Pac-M*n necktie
   (The asterisk is to keep from mucking up people's Usenet search
results.  Replace it with an "a", if you didn't know.)

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RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


>2)  I RARELY crash.  I'm using Windows Me.

Worst OS ever :)

>Going through normal use
>(Outlook, Word, Excel, FrontPage, various shareware utilities, and a bunch
>of games) I might have a crash once every couple of weeks.  This is
>acceptable to me.

This may sound strange for regular Windows users, but Linux hasn't crashed
on me since 1998.


Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

It's pretty much a given that if Windows never existed we'd all have Apples
right now.  MS basically backstabbed Apple and released Windows...otherwise
they would have been on the Apple bandwagon.  Commodore and Atari would
never have been able to compete with a solidly entrenched Apple/Microsoft
line.

Apple would be #1, DOS would be where Apple is today (Maybe with GEM or
Geoworks as the shell), and Atari/Commodore (sadly) would be where they are
today.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:52 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock



Who knows where we would be if Windows never existed? We could be using for
example AmigaOS, which handled multitasking better than most other OSes. Or
MacOS which is even "easier" to use than Windows. Or Linux, BeOS, BSD, VAX
(god forbid! ;) )

Anyway, Windows has serious issues, and we're now "doomed" to using it
and/or its offsprings.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"









  "Hugh Falk"
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


  16/11/01 15:43

  Solicita-se resposta a
  swcollect  Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  A/C:
  Ref:
  cc:
Assunto: RE: OT Gates (was:
[SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer
Games  (wasshock




It's up to the game developer to test it on different hardware
configurations.  The same problem exists with Linux.  The problem is that
there is less that 5% the number of systems running Linux (for example)
that
Windows.  Apple of course doesn't have the problem with proprietary
hardware.


If Windows never existed we would all be on Apples right now.  That would
work for me as well.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock



>If your game crashes...you have a complaint with the game, not the
operating
>system (usually).

Not really. So many games work on machine A,B & C, but not in D, but others
only seem to work on C & D but not on A & B...

>Poorly written/tested games will crash (or at least not
>work properly) under Linux, DOS or any other operating system.

Of course. But with poorly coded OSs (Windows) they may crash more often
than with stable ones.

>My favorite games don't crash under Windows.  Shoot even my ST emulator
doesn't crash
>(and it's freeware).  Again I'm not saying Windows is perfect...I'm saying
>that DOS wasn't perfect either...and the acceptance of Windows as a game
>development platform has made things easier for gamers, which has made the
>PC more acceptable as a mass-market gaming platform, which has meant more
>games for us.

>And I can assure you...as a highly technical, programmer/technical support
>person working in the computer industry at the time, the PC was DIFFICULT
to
>work with as a platform in the early nineties.  My 80-year-old parents
would
>not be able to look at pictures of their grandson on the Internet today if
>we still lived in a DOS world.  99.% of all game development
in
>the world would be done on consoles.

But this wasn't not a DOS vs Windows issue. If Windows had never existed we
would be much better with other stable OSes out there. And we'd still have
games.

>Hugh

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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http://www.globalshop.pt




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-

RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

Enjoy Linux...I used to use it...its too complicated to catch on in the
mass-market, but there's no reason you shouldn't enjoy it.  Again if Linux
were the standard PC operating system, game development would eventually
disappear due to the lack of mass-market appeal.  There would still be
games...just not at the current level...probably more like the MAC level (if
you took away Windows ports, and just included MAC-developed games).

Two more things:

1)  I bought my latest system about a year ago.  I haven't had to tweak a
single thing and every game I have played has worked fine.

2)  I RARELY crash.  I'm using Windows Me.Going through normal use
(Outlook, Word, Excel, FrontPage, various shareware utilities, and a bunch
of games) I might have a crash once every couple of weeks.  This is
acceptable to me.  However, I do shut down every night.  I know from past
experience that leaving your machine on all the time will cause more
problems.

Believe it or not, I'm NOT a Windows or MS fan (short for fanatic).  I was a
relatively late adopter and only then because that's where the great games
were going.  The truth is that I am not passionate about the operating
system at all (as you are for Linux).  I don't think about the operating
system...that's the way I think it should be.  It works, its easy, there are
a ton of great games, I get my work done, and my folks can see their
grandson.  Linux may be more efficient, more robust, etc. etcbut the
main benefit it brings as far as I'm concerned is competition for MS (at
least in the techie community).  The pressure will only help Windows get
better.


Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:27 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock



>Well but that's the point of this string... you had to configure the crap
>yourself!  I've never had to do any such thing under windows!

You never had to configure anything in Windows? Reduce a bit your sound
card acceleration? Tweak around with your gfx card settings?

In DOS I only had to create the multiple configurations once (I usually did
XMS with HiMem, EMS with HiMem, Mixed with HiMem and clean XMS), and you
were set for every computer game out there.

>Try playing
>Chaos Engine on a regular install of MSDOS, the game wants every possible
>bit of memory it can have... spent ages trying to get it to run.  That
makes
>windows more like the older systems, like Amiga and ST.  Granted there
will
always be a level of complexity not existing in the old days due to the
open
hardware platform (especially when hardware manufacturers decide to make
things slightly off standard... I have stories about my WinTV Go card that
would make you cry).

>But to suggest as you did in a previous post that
>Linux makes plug and play easier, well yes, you will get your soundcard
>recognized, but will your programs (aka games) recognize it?

Sure. Haven't you ever played a game in Linux? I could surprise you with
some data. Quake 2 in Linux is way faster than same machine running Quake 2
in Windows. Better yet, Quake 2 for Windows on a Windows emulator in Linux
is faster than Quake 2 in Windows! Interesting, isn't it?

>That's another
>issue entirely, since there is no universally accepted api set.  I have
>never had to reset any of my system configurations (with the exception of
16
>bit or 32 bit color... hate when a game won't accept 32bit color... anyone
>know what the problem is with that from a coding stand point?)

No idea, but there are programs out there that let you "trick" the game
into thinking you're using another screen mode.

>for a windows
>program... it just runs.

And then it just crashes and you have no idea why ;)

>On the issue of crashing... all I can say is that Dos machines didn't
crash
>as much because they weren't doing as much!  Spec your windows system down
>to the bare minimum and only run one program at a time, with no lan
>connections or anything running, and believe me it won't crash either.

But you can run Linux with everything running and all services on, and it
won't crash. In the worst possible event, X will crash but not the OS, so
you can just start X again. Due to bad programming, an error in a software
in Windows usually crashes everything.

Yes, you've noticed by now how much I love Linux.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"









  "Karl Kuras"
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


  16/11/01 14:54

  Solicita-se resposta a
  swcollect  Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  A/C:
  Ref:
  cc:
Assunto: Re: OT Gates (was:
[SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer

Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games

2001-11-16 Thread Lee K. Seitz

Pedro Quaresma boldly stated:
>
>>I have
>>never had to reset any of my system configurations (with the exception of
>16
>>bit or 32 bit color... hate when a game won't accept 32bit color... anyone
>>know what the problem is with that from a coding stand point?)
>
>No idea, but there are programs out there that let you "trick" the game
>into thinking you're using another screen mode.

There are?  Know any by name?  The Activision Atari 2600 Action Packs
only work in 256-color mode.  (Bleah!)

-- 
Lee K. Seitz  *  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  *  http://home.hiwaay.net/~lkseitz/
   Wanted:  Vintage Pac-M*n necktie
   (The asterisk is to keep from mucking up people's Usenet search
results.  Replace it with an "a", if you didn't know.)

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RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


Who knows where we would be if Windows never existed? We could be using for
example AmigaOS, which handled multitasking better than most other OSes. Or
MacOS which is even "easier" to use than Windows. Or Linux, BeOS, BSD, VAX
(god forbid! ;) )

Anyway, Windows has serious issues, and we're now "doomed" to using it
and/or its offsprings.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"


   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
  "Hugh Falk"  
 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
   
 
   
 
  16/11/01 15:43   
 
   
 
  Solicita-se resposta a   
 
  swcollect  Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
  A/C: 
 
  Ref: 
 
  cc:  
 
Assunto: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue 
(was Killer Games (was Soccer 
Games  (wasshock   
 
   
 



It's up to the game developer to test it on different hardware
configurations.  The same problem exists with Linux.  The problem is that
there is less that 5% the number of systems running Linux (for example)
that
Windows.  Apple of course doesn't have the problem with proprietary
hardware.


If Windows never existed we would all be on Apples right now.  That would
work for me as well.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock



>If your game crashes...you have a complaint with the game, not the
operating
>system (usually).

Not really. So many games work on machine A,B & C, but not in D, but others
only seem to work on C & D but not on A & B...

>Poorly written/tested games will crash (or at least not
>work properly) under Linux, DOS or any other operating system.

Of course. But with poorly coded OSs (Windows) they may crash more often
than with stable ones.

>My favorite games don't crash under Windows.  Shoot even my ST emulator
doesn't crash
>(and it's freeware).  Again I'm not saying Windows is perfect...I'm saying
>that DOS wasn't perfect either...and the acceptance of Windows as a game
>development platform has made things easier for gamers, which has made the
>PC more acceptable as a mass-market gaming platform, which has meant more
>games for us.

>And I can assure you...as a highly technical, programmer/technical support
>person working in the computer industry at the time, the PC was DIFFICULT
to
>work with as a platform in the early nineties.  My 80-year-old parents
would
>not be able to look at pictures of their grandson on the Internet today if
>we still lived in a DOS world.  99.% of all game development
in
>the world would be done on consoles.

But this wasn't not a DOS vs Windows issue. If Windows had never existed we
would be much better with other stable OSes out there. And we'd still have
games.

>Hugh

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EM

RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

It's up to the game developer to test it on different hardware
configurations.  The same problem exists with Linux.  The problem is that
there is less that 5% the number of systems running Linux (for example) that
Windows.  Apple of course doesn't have the problem with proprietary
hardware.


If Windows never existed we would all be on Apples right now.  That would
work for me as well.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock



>If your game crashes...you have a complaint with the game, not the
operating
>system (usually).

Not really. So many games work on machine A,B & C, but not in D, but others
only seem to work on C & D but not on A & B...

>Poorly written/tested games will crash (or at least not
>work properly) under Linux, DOS or any other operating system.

Of course. But with poorly coded OSs (Windows) they may crash more often
than with stable ones.

>My favorite games don't crash under Windows.  Shoot even my ST emulator
doesn't crash
>(and it's freeware).  Again I'm not saying Windows is perfect...I'm saying
>that DOS wasn't perfect either...and the acceptance of Windows as a game
>development platform has made things easier for gamers, which has made the
>PC more acceptable as a mass-market gaming platform, which has meant more
>games for us.

>And I can assure you...as a highly technical, programmer/technical support
>person working in the computer industry at the time, the PC was DIFFICULT
to
>work with as a platform in the early nineties.  My 80-year-old parents
would
>not be able to look at pictures of their grandson on the Internet today if
>we still lived in a DOS world.  99.% of all game development
in
>the world would be done on consoles.

But this wasn't not a DOS vs Windows issue. If Windows had never existed we
would be much better with other stable OSes out there. And we'd still have
games.

>Hugh

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


>Well but that's the point of this string... you had to configure the crap
>yourself!  I've never had to do any such thing under windows!

You never had to configure anything in Windows? Reduce a bit your sound
card acceleration? Tweak around with your gfx card settings?

In DOS I only had to create the multiple configurations once (I usually did
XMS with HiMem, EMS with HiMem, Mixed with HiMem and clean XMS), and you
were set for every computer game out there.

>Try playing
>Chaos Engine on a regular install of MSDOS, the game wants every possible
>bit of memory it can have... spent ages trying to get it to run.  That
makes
>windows more like the older systems, like Amiga and ST.  Granted there
will
always be a level of complexity not existing in the old days due to the
open
hardware platform (especially when hardware manufacturers decide to make
things slightly off standard... I have stories about my WinTV Go card that
would make you cry).

>But to suggest as you did in a previous post that
>Linux makes plug and play easier, well yes, you will get your soundcard
>recognized, but will your programs (aka games) recognize it?

Sure. Haven't you ever played a game in Linux? I could surprise you with
some data. Quake 2 in Linux is way faster than same machine running Quake 2
in Windows. Better yet, Quake 2 for Windows on a Windows emulator in Linux
is faster than Quake 2 in Windows! Interesting, isn't it?

>That's another
>issue entirely, since there is no universally accepted api set.  I have
>never had to reset any of my system configurations (with the exception of
16
>bit or 32 bit color... hate when a game won't accept 32bit color... anyone
>know what the problem is with that from a coding stand point?)

No idea, but there are programs out there that let you "trick" the game
into thinking you're using another screen mode.

>for a windows
>program... it just runs.

And then it just crashes and you have no idea why ;)

>On the issue of crashing... all I can say is that Dos machines didn't
crash
>as much because they weren't doing as much!  Spec your windows system down
>to the bare minimum and only run one program at a time, with no lan
>connections or anything running, and believe me it won't crash either.

But you can run Linux with everything running and all services on, and it
won't crash. In the worst possible event, X will crash but not the OS, so
you can just start X again. Due to bad programming, an error in a software
in Windows usually crashes everything.

Yes, you've noticed by now how much I love Linux.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"


   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
  "Karl Kuras" 
 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   
 
   
 
   
 
  16/11/01 14:54   
 
   
 
  Solicita-se resposta a   
 
  swcollect  Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
  A/C: 
 
  Ref: 
 
  cc:  
 
Assunto: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue 
(was Killer Games (was Soccer 
Games  (wasshock   
 

RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


>If your game crashes...you have a complaint with the game, not the
operating
>system (usually).

Not really. So many games work on machine A,B & C, but not in D, but others
only seem to work on C & D but not on A & B...

>Poorly written/tested games will crash (or at least not
>work properly) under Linux, DOS or any other operating system.

Of course. But with poorly coded OSs (Windows) they may crash more often
than with stable ones.

>My favorite games don't crash under Windows.  Shoot even my ST emulator
doesn't crash
>(and it's freeware).  Again I'm not saying Windows is perfect...I'm saying
>that DOS wasn't perfect either...and the acceptance of Windows as a game
>development platform has made things easier for gamers, which has made the
>PC more acceptable as a mass-market gaming platform, which has meant more
>games for us.

>And I can assure you...as a highly technical, programmer/technical support
>person working in the computer industry at the time, the PC was DIFFICULT
to
>work with as a platform in the early nineties.  My 80-year-old parents
would
>not be able to look at pictures of their grandson on the Internet today if
>we still lived in a DOS world.  99.% of all game development
in
>the world would be done on consoles.

But this wasn't not a DOS vs Windows issue. If Windows had never existed we
would be much better with other stable OSes out there. And we'd still have
games.

>Hugh

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

If your game crashes...you have a complaint with the game, not the operating
system (usually).  Poorly written/tested games will crash (or at least not
work properly) under Linux, DOS or any other operating system.  My favorite
games don't crash under Windows.  Shoot even my ST emulator doesn't crash
(and it's freeware).  Again I'm not saying Windows is perfect...I'm saying
that DOS wasn't perfect either...and the acceptance of Windows as a game
development platform has made things easier for gamers, which has made the
PC more acceptable as a mass-market gaming platform, which has meant more
games for us.

And I can assure you...as a highly technical, programmer/technical support
person working in the computer industry at the time, the PC was DIFFICULT to
work with as a platform in the early nineties.  My 80-year-old parents would
not be able to look at pictures of their grandson on the Internet today if
we still lived in a DOS world.  99.% of all game development in
the world would be done on consoles.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (wasshock



Memmaker was not optimal. I could get better results by configuring
config.sys & autoexec.bat myself, usually involving, IIRC,
shadowing/unshadowing memory and other interesting tricks.
I remember I used to get more than 600k base memory even with sound card
and CD-ROM drivers loaded. Later on, with RDosUmb, 610+ was possible even
with smartdrive loaded.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Karl Kuras

From: "Pedro Quaresma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Memmaker was not optimal. I could get better results by configuring
> config.sys & autoexec.bat myself, usually involving, IIRC,
> shadowing/unshadowing memory and other interesting tricks.
> I remember I used to get more than 600k base memory even with sound card
> and CD-ROM drivers loaded. Later on, with RDosUmb, 610+ was possible even
> with smartdrive loaded.

Well but that's the point of this string... you had to configure the crap
yourself!  I've never had to do any such thing under windows!  Try playing
Chaos Engine on a regular install of MSDOS, the game wants every possible
bit of memory it can have... spent ages trying to get it to run.  That makes
windows more like the older systems, like Amiga and ST.  Granted there will
always be a level of complexity not existing in the old days due to the open
hardware platform (especially when hardware manufacturers decide to make
things slightly off standard... I have stories about my WinTV Go card that
would make you cry).  But to suggest as you did in a previous post that
Linux makes plug and play easier, well yes, you will get your soundcard
recognized, but will your programs (aka games) recognize it?  That's another
issue entirely, since there is no universally accepted api set.  I have
never had to reset any of my system configurations (with the exception of 16
bit or 32 bit color... hate when a game won't accept 32bit color... anyone
know what the problem is with that from a coding stand point?) for a windows
program... it just runs.

On the issue of crashing... all I can say is that Dos machines didn't crash
as much because they weren't doing as much!  Spec your windows system down
to the bare minimum and only run one program at a time, with no lan
connections or anything running, and believe me it won't crash either.

Karl Kuras
Visit Our House the online comic strip!
http://ourhouse.trantornator.com


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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Chris Newman

QEMM was better at optimizing memory usage than DOS 6.22. There were several games 
that needed
QEMM to run on my machine, because DOS' MemMaker wouldn't cut it.

Pedro Quaresma wrote:

> EA, MacDonalds, and now Windows... you're scaring me, Hugh! ;)
>
> >I'm not thrilled with everything about Windows; however, as a gamer...I
> >don't see how you can't think Windows 95 and later made life MUCH better.
>
> No, it hasn't. As a gamer, I'd rather have one of the old OSes that
> wouldn't crash.
>
> >Once Win 95 was adopted by game developers, and games were written (well)
> >under it, gaming became so much easier.
>
> a) The percentage of games written well under Windows is way lower than the
> ones written well for DOS. b) Sometimes it's not the problem of the games
> itself, they crash because of Windows itself.
>
> >I still remember the bad old days
> >of having multiple boot disks, QEMM, and a reconfig programugh...that
> >was really a crappy way to game (having come from the ST, Amiga, Mac
> world).
>
> Multiple bootdisks?! Qemm?! DOS 6 (and 6.2, and 6.22) made those things
> obsolete. I could play any computer game on DOS 6.2 (my favorite), with the
> multiple-boot menus, and had no need for 3rd party software.
>
> >Once 95 became the standard, things for gamers got much
> better...peripherals
> >(rudder pedals, steering wheels, etc)
>
> That has nothing to do with Windows 95. If Windows 95 had never existed,
> and if we were all using, for example, OS/2, BeOS, Linux, etc, we'd still
> have rudders, wheels etc.
>
> Besides, there have always been different and innovative (I have began to
> hate this word) peripherals since the dawn of computers
>
> >also become much easier to deal with...gotta love Plug and Play.
>
> Oh, Plug 'n' Play, that thing that works perfectly on Linuxes like Mandrake
> 8.0 but seem to crash or wrongly recognize hardware in Windows? 0:)
>
> >To me, it sounds like another example of the "good old days" not being
> that good.  Certainly from a gamer's
> >perspective.
>
> Sorry Hugh, I still think that the good old days were much better. At least
> our standard OS was stable, and so were games.
>
> >Hugh
>
> Pedro R. Quaresma
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "So long, and thanks for all the fish"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   "Hugh Falk"
>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
>   16/11/01 14:13
>
>   Solicita-se resposta a
>   swcollect  Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   A/C:
>   Ref:
>   cc:
> Assunto: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] 
>Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer
> Games  (was shock
>
>
> I'm not thrilled with everything about Windows; however, as a gamer...I
> don't see how you can't think Windows 95 and later made life MUCH better.
> Once Win 95 was adopted by game developers, and games were written (well)
> under it, gaming became so much easier.  I still remember the bad old days
> of having multiple boot disks, QEMM, and a reconfig programugh...that
> was really a crappy way to game (having come from the ST, Amiga, Mac
> world).
> Once 95 became the standard, things for gamers got much
> better...peripherals
> (rudder pedals, steering wheels, etc) also become much easier to deal
> with...gotta love Plug and Play.  To me, it sounds like another example of
> the "good old days" not being that good.  Certainly from a gamer's
> perspective.
>
> Hugh
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:10 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
> Soccer Games (was shock
>
> Jim Leonard wrote:
> >Chris Newman wrote:
> >
> > What's the story? Is MS abusing its relationship with NBC? Where'd you
> hear the
> > rumors?
> > Yes, I'm very interested in that. Gates is part snake oil salesman, part
> gangster,
> > and all
> > opportunist.
>
> >Rumor has it that Microsoft offered to 1. ignore existing NBC Microsoft
> >product license violations (ie pirated copies) *and* cut them a deal on
> >existing and future product license purchases if they set up Gates on a
> >prime-time show (not necessarily Frasier) to promote XP.
>
> Oh great. Now you guys can't even calmly watch a TV show without suffering
> the risk of receiving a message from, according to Chris, "Lucifer
> himself".
>
> >Gates was paid standard SAG rates, something like $636 for a day's
> >work.  But this isn't surprising, really -- he doesn't need the money
> >;-)
>
> NBC should've paid him in legal copies of Windows ME instead of writing him
> a check. >:)
>
> >I'm not entirely sure I'd call Gates a gangster or snake-oil salesman --
> >that's Balmer's job and always has been.  :-)
>
> Even before he became CEO? What did he do before?
>
> >Opportu

RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


EA, MacDonalds, and now Windows... you're scaring me, Hugh! ;)

>I'm not thrilled with everything about Windows; however, as a gamer...I
>don't see how you can't think Windows 95 and later made life MUCH better.

No, it hasn't. As a gamer, I'd rather have one of the old OSes that
wouldn't crash.

>Once Win 95 was adopted by game developers, and games were written (well)
>under it, gaming became so much easier.

a) The percentage of games written well under Windows is way lower than the
ones written well for DOS. b) Sometimes it's not the problem of the games
itself, they crash because of Windows itself.

>I still remember the bad old days
>of having multiple boot disks, QEMM, and a reconfig programugh...that
>was really a crappy way to game (having come from the ST, Amiga, Mac
world).

Multiple bootdisks?! Qemm?! DOS 6 (and 6.2, and 6.22) made those things
obsolete. I could play any computer game on DOS 6.2 (my favorite), with the
multiple-boot menus, and had no need for 3rd party software.

>Once 95 became the standard, things for gamers got much
better...peripherals
>(rudder pedals, steering wheels, etc)

That has nothing to do with Windows 95. If Windows 95 had never existed,
and if we were all using, for example, OS/2, BeOS, Linux, etc, we'd still
have rudders, wheels etc.

Besides, there have always been different and innovative (I have began to
hate this word) peripherals since the dawn of computers

>also become much easier to deal with...gotta love Plug and Play.

Oh, Plug 'n' Play, that thing that works perfectly on Linuxes like Mandrake
8.0 but seem to crash or wrongly recognize hardware in Windows? 0:)

>To me, it sounds like another example of the "good old days" not being
that good.  Certainly from a gamer's
>perspective.

Sorry Hugh, I still think that the good old days were much better. At least
our standard OS was stable, and so were games.

>Hugh


Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"


   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
   
 
  "Hugh Falk"  
 
  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
   
 
   
 
  16/11/01 14:13   
 
   
 
  Solicita-se resposta a   
 
  swcollect  Para: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 
  A/C: 
 
  Ref: 
 
  cc:  
 
Assunto: RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue 
(was Killer Games (was Soccer 
Games  (was shock  
 
   
 



I'm not thrilled with everything about Windows; however, as a gamer...I
don't see how you can't think Windows 95 and later made life MUCH better.
Once Win 95 was adopted by game developers, and games were written (well)
under it, gaming became so much easier.  I still remember the bad old days
of having multiple boot disks, QEMM, and a reconfig programugh...that
was really a crappy way to game (having come from the ST, Amiga, Mac
world).
Once 95 became the standard, things for gamers got much
better...peripherals
(rudd

RE: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (was shock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Hugh Falk

I'm not thrilled with everything about Windows; however, as a gamer...I
don't see how you can't think Windows 95 and later made life MUCH better.
Once Win 95 was adopted by game developers, and games were written (well)
under it, gaming became so much easier.  I still remember the bad old days
of having multiple boot disks, QEMM, and a reconfig programugh...that
was really a crappy way to game (having come from the ST, Amiga, Mac world).
Once 95 became the standard, things for gamers got much better...peripherals
(rudder pedals, steering wheels, etc) also become much easier to deal
with...gotta love Plug and Play.  To me, it sounds like another example of
the "good old days" not being that good.  Certainly from a gamer's
perspective.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Pedro Quaresma [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:10 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was
Soccer Games (was shock




Jim Leonard wrote:
>Chris Newman wrote:
>
> What's the story? Is MS abusing its relationship with NBC? Where'd you
hear the
> rumors?
> Yes, I'm very interested in that. Gates is part snake oil salesman, part
gangster,
> and all
> opportunist.

>Rumor has it that Microsoft offered to 1. ignore existing NBC Microsoft
>product license violations (ie pirated copies) *and* cut them a deal on
>existing and future product license purchases if they set up Gates on a
>prime-time show (not necessarily Frasier) to promote XP.

Oh great. Now you guys can't even calmly watch a TV show without suffering
the risk of receiving a message from, according to Chris, "Lucifer
himself".

>Gates was paid standard SAG rates, something like $636 for a day's
>work.  But this isn't surprising, really -- he doesn't need the money
>;-)

NBC should've paid him in legal copies of Windows ME instead of writing him
a check. >:)

>I'm not entirely sure I'd call Gates a gangster or snake-oil salesman --
>that's Balmer's job and always has been.  :-)

Even before he became CEO? What did he do before?

>Opportunist is 99% of
>what Gates was/is.  He saw some opportunities and he took advantage of
>them, and a couple of his successes -- MS-DOS licensed on multiple
>machines making him rich, Excel, Word for DOS -- were legitimate reasons
>to like Microsoft in the 1980s.  Everything past Windows 3.0 was
>downhill though -- as late as 1989 they were telling application
>developers to develop for Windows 3.0 behind IBM's back (they had a
>license to co-develop OS/2 with IBM at the time).  It was a total abuse
>of power.

It sounds like gangster-like behaviour, actually. And praising WinME (the
worst OS ever) makes him sound like a snake-oil salesman. If I head him say
the word "innovation" again, I'll eat my MSDOS 4.01 floppies.

Anyway, I think, from a technical point of view, that Microsoft really went
downhill after Windows 3.11. Windows 95 is unexcusable: any OS should work
with the least possible features on the Kernel, to minimize crashes.
Windows95 has the whole GUI and much more on the kernel. All MS OSs after
Win95 break several of basic rules of programming and maintaining an OS.

>My only real lament with the rise of Microsoft is two-fold:

>1. People have come to expect buggy software, multiple releases/patches,
>and frequent crashing.  It has become acceptable.

Never thought of it that way, but that's the way things go nowadays, and
it's not about OSes only. Games are following the same path. Does anyone
remember a game released after 1998 that had no need for a patch? Me
neither.

>2. Geoworks Ensemble never got the recognition it deserved.

>The above is what really, really depresses me, especially Geoworks.

Geoworks Ensamble? Please explain. I'd like once again to add #3

3. There's a solid, free, open source, nearly bug-free, easy to use,
extremely stable, etc OS out there (Linux of course) and the number of
people using it is still almost irrelevant, because most prefer any
expensive and full of bugs version of Windows.

>http://www.MobyGames.com/
>The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.



Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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Re: [SWCollect] Chinese PC games

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


>On a side note, the seller initially also had a bunch of Chinese Ultimas,
>but someone else bought them up in the meantime ;-)

"Someone else"? That sound suspicious! ;)

Anyone else interested in anything from that Chinese lot?

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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Re: [SWCollect] Chinese PC games

2001-11-16 Thread Alexander Zoller

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1297245902

Well-known PC games... in chinese version. I had never seen anything like
these.>

These are Chinese releases distributed in Taiwan and Hong Kong. They must be
common in that area, but there aren't enough collectors that would export
them, so they are hard to come by.

On a side note, the seller initially also had a bunch of Chinese Ultimas,
but someone else bought them up in the meantime ;-)

/Alexander


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[SWCollect] Chinese PC games

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma


Anyone spotted this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1297245902

Well-known PC games... in chinese version. I had never seen anything like
these.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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Re: [SWCollect] Killer App revisited

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma



Chris Newman wrote:
>Wizardry, circa 1982
>Doom, circa 1994

1984 (maybe AppleII was earlier) for Wizardry and 1993 for Doom, actually.

>Defender of the Crown
>The first crop of Sierra 256VGA/SB games

Oh yes, visually speaking, KQ5 (wasn't it the first) was tremendously
impressive for its days.

>season to taste...

>Are they singly really enough to justify the purchase of a new machine?
Depends on
>the person I suppose.

Sure, back in 1994 I bought a P133 for Ultima 8, but I probably was the
only one! :)

>For me, it was not a specific game, but a group of 5 or 10.
>We buy to update to the current generation, but it's those shining
examples of
>perfect games that provides the motivation.

Actually, I have a theory. Every year that passes I have more games that I
really wanted to play but haven't got the time to. I guess that in some
years time I won't need to upgrade anymore because I have enough games to
play until I'm old :)

>Thief (1998). Ahhh, that is a great game :)

I don't think it sold computers that massively.

Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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Re: OT Gates (was: [SWCollect] Rogue (was Killer Games (was Soccer Games (wasshock))))

2001-11-16 Thread Pedro Quaresma



Jim Leonard wrote:
>Chris Newman wrote:
>
> What's the story? Is MS abusing its relationship with NBC? Where'd you
hear the
> rumors?
> Yes, I'm very interested in that. Gates is part snake oil salesman, part
gangster,
> and all
> opportunist.

>Rumor has it that Microsoft offered to 1. ignore existing NBC Microsoft
>product license violations (ie pirated copies) *and* cut them a deal on
>existing and future product license purchases if they set up Gates on a
>prime-time show (not necessarily Frasier) to promote XP.

Oh great. Now you guys can't even calmly watch a TV show without suffering
the risk of receiving a message from, according to Chris, "Lucifer
himself".

>Gates was paid standard SAG rates, something like $636 for a day's
>work.  But this isn't surprising, really -- he doesn't need the money
>;-)

NBC should've paid him in legal copies of Windows ME instead of writing him
a check. >:)

>I'm not entirely sure I'd call Gates a gangster or snake-oil salesman --
>that's Balmer's job and always has been.  :-)

Even before he became CEO? What did he do before?

>Opportunist is 99% of
>what Gates was/is.  He saw some opportunities and he took advantage of
>them, and a couple of his successes -- MS-DOS licensed on multiple
>machines making him rich, Excel, Word for DOS -- were legitimate reasons
>to like Microsoft in the 1980s.  Everything past Windows 3.0 was
>downhill though -- as late as 1989 they were telling application
>developers to develop for Windows 3.0 behind IBM's back (they had a
>license to co-develop OS/2 with IBM at the time).  It was a total abuse
>of power.

It sounds like gangster-like behaviour, actually. And praising WinME (the
worst OS ever) makes him sound like a snake-oil salesman. If I head him say
the word "innovation" again, I'll eat my MSDOS 4.01 floppies.

Anyway, I think, from a technical point of view, that Microsoft really went
downhill after Windows 3.11. Windows 95 is unexcusable: any OS should work
with the least possible features on the Kernel, to minimize crashes.
Windows95 has the whole GUI and much more on the kernel. All MS OSs after
Win95 break several of basic rules of programming and maintaining an OS.

>My only real lament with the rise of Microsoft is two-fold:

>1. People have come to expect buggy software, multiple releases/patches,
>and frequent crashing.  It has become acceptable.

Never thought of it that way, but that's the way things go nowadays, and
it's not about OSes only. Games are following the same path. Does anyone
remember a game released after 1998 that had no need for a patch? Me
neither.

>2. Geoworks Ensemble never got the recognition it deserved.

>The above is what really, really depresses me, especially Geoworks.

Geoworks Ensamble? Please explain. I'd like once again to add #3

3. There's a solid, free, open source, nearly bug-free, easy to use,
extremely stable, etc OS out there (Linux of course) and the number of
people using it is still almost irrelevant, because most prefer any
expensive and full of bugs version of Windows.

>http://www.MobyGames.com/
>The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.



Pedro R. Quaresma
[EMAIL PROTECTED] / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"So long, and thanks for all the fish"




http://www.salvador-caetano.pt
http://www.globalshop.pt



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