RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I misspoke. I confused Salazar's 1980 and 1981 marks at NYC. It was his second marathon that was under the old WR, albeit temporarily due to course measurement error. RMc At 09:15 PM 10/15/2003 -0400, malmo wrote: Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM To: alan tobin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for health reasons The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc Alan
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
At 01:52 PM 10/16/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ARGGGH! Why can't you just say I misspoke. Ops? Instead you've chosen to say, temporarily a WR Everyone on the planet knew that course was short. Do you need to take reading lessons? I made the correction that his SECOND effort was temporarily a WR, (and even adjusting for how short, the time would have been a WR). As for knowing that the course was short, and having watched the race on TV, for some weird reason, the all-knowing announcers failed to note that the course was short. Thank god you're at Berkeley where you can't do damage and not at the FBI. You'd still be claiming Richard Jewell was the bomber at the 1996 Olympics!!! So you've found that I slipped up on a factual issue (vs. the numerous errors that me and others have found in your posts)--somehow that erodes all of my credibility? Not that you have ever admitted any errors, while I have freely admitted mine in the past. That's the pot calling the kettle black BTW, I'm not at Berkeley, I only graduated from there. I'm busy mucking up your energy policies in Davis RMc malmo From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2003/10/16 Thu PM 12:15:34 CDT To: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: 'alan tobin' [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago I misspoke. I confused Salazar's 1980 and 1981 marks at NYC. It was his second marathon that was under the old WR, albeit temporarily due to course measurement error. RMc At 09:15 PM 10/15/2003 -0400, malmo wrote: Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM To: alan tobin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for health reasons The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc Alan
Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
And I argue that the marathon WR has been comparatively weak to other WRs, even with Dinsamo's mark in 1988. Even though would you prefer to do so, you cannot look at the progression in a single event in isolation. You are assuming that the WRs at any one point in time are always equivalent. So, for example, you are assuming that all of the WRs in 1968 were equivalent to Beamon's LJ, or that all of the current WRs are equivalent to Johnson's 200. And I think that even you recognize the absurdity of that assumption. Once you acknowledge that not all of the WRs are equivalent, then seeing rapid mass progression in an event that is recognized as relatively weak should not be surprising. As to your argument that having so many push under the record is unusual is that the number of elite marathons has increasing several fold since the mid-late 1980s. Before then, the only elite marathons outside of the once every 4 year Olympics were the Commonwealth Games, Boston, Fukuoka, and a once a year European marathon that seemed to move location. Now the opportunities to face top competition that requires fast times to win are manifest. Think of how many runners were under Bikilia's 2:12:11 1964 WR from then until 1972. I wouldn't be surprised that it was almost equivalent, and certainly after you adjust for the many fewer opportunities to race then. I am a doubter of the 1993 Chinese women's performances (the 1997 performances are more in line with historic events). But I would not be a doubter if those records had been either done by an individual spread out over a longer period of time, without qualifying rounds at high speeds. (I read last night that Wang also ran faster than the 3k WR in the last 3k of her 10k WR, 8:17.7!), or there had been a single mass finish race, instead of having 2 under the 10k WR, two days later 2 more under the 1500 WR, then 4 under the 3k WR in the semis!, then 5 under the 3k WR in the finals, all in the space of 6 days, with many of the same athletes breaking multiple WRs! And to top it, none of these athletes ever again approaching these performances. At least in the marathon, many of these athletes repeat there performances at a later date. Also, given that the 5k/10k records dropped so much, with so many runners now under the previous standards, from 1993-1998 (and the records still stand), why didn't the marathon marks drop equivalently during that same period if drugs were the reason? Seems like those drugs should have had the same effect during the same period, but that's not what occurred. And finally, it should not be surprising to see the record broken every year when it is broken by a relatively small increment each time. Progressing for 2:06:50 to 2:05:42 in 1999 is the equivalent of a 16 second improvement in the 10k--that's a relatively small improvement historically, especially over 11 years. As for the record being broken every year, I see improvements in 1999, 2002 and 2003. Improvement in the debut record only reflects that better athletes are deciding to move up in the event. It's not unusual to see debuts in the 5k and 10k near the WR as well. The marathon is now becoming more like the other events as training volumes increase. You need to eliminate conclusively the many other explanations before you leap to your conclusion, which has no actual evidence whatsoever. (I point I make repeatedly on this list.) RMc At 01:57 PM 10/15/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:14:01 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Trumping the trump card... The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. I'm suspicious of any current or former WR holder or Olympic/World gold medalist. You can damn me for that opinion all you want but it is my opinion and it won't change until WADA, USADA or any other anti-doping agency does a better job which isn't likely to happen. I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for health reasons Alan From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'alan tobin' [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from exchange3.rodale.com ([206.245.129.44]) by mc9-f22.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:59:10 -0700 Received: by exchange3.rodale.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)id 46CBSSFG; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:38 -0400 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGNXRvdeLQnY6cs8weDh8OP Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2003 14:59:11.0678 (UTC) FILETIME=[E46E3DE0:01C3932C] Rutto's debut of 2:05:50 was 55 seconds off the current world record. Khannouchi's debut of 2:07:10 - also a debut world record at the time -- was 20 seconds off the then world record. -Original Message- From: alan tobin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:14:01 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .net Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means of identifying which performances are the greatest outlier vs. other performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions are comparable among events. If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per se, but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such transparency is the fundamental basis of objective comparisons
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
H...apparently I've been trumped. I'll go back to my cave now. Alan From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'alan tobin' [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from exchange3.rodale.com ([206.245.129.44]) by mc9-f22.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Wed, 15 Oct 2003 07:59:10 -0700 Received: by exchange3.rodale.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)id 46CBSSFG; Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:57:38 -0400 X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGNXRvdeLQnY6cs8weDh8OP Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2003 14:59:11.0678 (UTC) FILETIME=[E46E3DE0:01C3932C] Rutto's debut of 2:05:50 was 55 seconds off the current world record. Khannouchi's debut of 2:07:10 - also a debut world record at the time -- was 20 seconds off the then world record. -Original Message- From: alan tobin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 9:57 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. It's not just running near a WR that implies drug use. It's when numerous people run near a WR that bothers me. It's when a marathon VIRGIN runs near a WR that bothers me. If KK runs a WR it wouldn't strike me as mysterious at all. He's been in the game for a while. He didn't debut at 2:05. The problem I have is that 7 of the top 10 marathon times in HISTORY have been run in 2002 or 2003. From 1988 to 1998 no one went under Dinsamo's record. Since then there's been 25 performances by 21 runners under that record. You will not find such a statistic during any other past decade. When records (be it WR or debut WR which was just broken in Paris by Wilson Onsare before Rutto did his Chicago dance) are broken every year in the same event then I question every one of those results. The state of the sport leads to such uncredibility. Alan From: Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:08:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us ([168.150.193.10]) by mc11-f20.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:14:01 -0700 Received: from user-dp1el8yc6y.cal.net (dcn235-28.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.235.28])by velocipede.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.11.4/8.11.4/Omsoft) with ESMTP id h9EJDqg05916;Tue, 14 Oct 2003 12:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Message-Info: JGTYoYF78jGQlXSka243lVN6IUY/pnVw Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.2.1 In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] .net Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Oct 2003 19:14:01.0947 (UTC) FILETIME=[53BA62B0:01C39287] I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means of identifying which performances are the greatest outlier vs. other performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions are comparable among events. If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per se, but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such transparency is the fundamental basis of objective comparisons. Subjective comparisons are opaque and cannot be recreated. RMc At 01:23 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ALL of these comparison tables are fundamentally flawed, as subjectivity is the common denominator. Don't believe me, just compare the projected equivalents from the various tables: Purdy, Coe and Martin, Portuguese, Mercier (I'm missing a few) _ See when your friends are online with MSN Messenger 6.0
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
At 06:01 PM 10/15/2003 +, alan tobin wrote: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago Trumping the trump card... The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for health reasons The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc Alan
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Alan wrote: Trumping the trump card... It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. I'm suspicious of any current or former WR holder or Olympic/World gold medalist. You can damn me for that opinion all you want but it is my opinion and it won't change until WADA, USADA or any other anti-doping agency does a better job which isn't likely to happen. Well, Alan - the only thing that statement damns you to is utter irrelevancy. At this point, you're not posting content. You're posting a repetitive screed. And you leave no basis for dialogue, except for others to accept your premise. So we can all duly note that Alan, in the absence of any data, is suspicious of any current or former WR holder or Olympic/World gold medalist. Which adds as much information to my life as knowing that Anne Coulter has come up with a new way to label liberals as evil. Since we all know your point of view, can you just quit posting it until you have more than your gut feelings to substantiate it? Phil
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM To: alan tobin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for health reasons The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc Alan
RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
Sal's 1st try was 2:09:41 @ NYC World Record was 2:08:33 -- - Original Message - DATE: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:15:08 From: malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Richard McCann' [EMAIL PROTECTED],'alan tobin' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perhaps you misspoke, or perhaps this is yet another of your embellishments? Salazar's debut was never under the WR. We're all track fans here and you have little chance of getting any your numerous whoppers past us. Why keep trying? I just don't get it? malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2003 2:15 PM To: alan tobin Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago The record KK came within 20 seconds of wasn't 2 weeks old but 9 years old. It should also be known that KK isn't off my suspicion list either. So now a 9 year old record is considered weak, and it's OK for a debut mark to be near that record? Rutto's debut was 8 seconds off a 4 year old record mark--that doesnt' seem too out of line. And remember that Salazar's debut was momentarily under the old WR, and even with the time correction was extremely close. RMc I think we should adopt the cycling federations hematocrit test. If you're over 50 then you're out for health reasons The ICU is refusing to join the WADA. I don't know the circumstances, but perhaps someone can fill us in on the reasons. I know that cycling may be dumped from the Olympics for this. RMc Alan Enter for a chance to win one year's supply of allergy relief! http://r.hotbot.com/r/lmt_clrtn/http://mocda3.com/1/c/563632/125699/307982/307982
Re: Re: t-and-f: fwd: Marathon debutant Rutto, Boston champ Zakharova win at Chicago
I have problems with the statistical methods used to develop most of these tables. Even the comparison method I used, which is similar to Hoffman's is a bit too simplistic. However, the correct method is rather data intensive. I would want to use the top 100 marks over a series of years to estimate the underlying variance in performances. This would be the means of identifying which performances are the greatest outlier vs. other performances. The one underlying assumption is that the same proportion of the population competes in each event so that the probability distributions are comparable among events. If we're going to rely solely on subjective comparisons, then Tobin's evaluation is no more valid than mine and he has absolutely no basis for leaping to a conclusion that running a near a WR in one event implies drug use. He's going to have to use a completely different basis for coming to that conclusion. On the other hand, I'm not arguing that my comparison is subjective per se, but rather can be recreated by anyone else in a step by step fashion that is readily transparent. If they want to change the underlying assumptions, they are free to do so and to come to their own conclusions. Such transparency is the fundamental basis of objective comparisons. Subjective comparisons are opaque and cannot be recreated. RMc At 01:23 PM 10/14/2003 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ALL of these comparison tables are fundamentally flawed, as subjectivity is the common denominator. Don't believe me, just compare the projected equivalents from the various tables: Purdy, Coe and Martin, Portuguese, Mercier (I'm missing a few)
