Re: t-and-f: Penn Problem
Unknown to the posters, this situation has more to it than is implied in all of the posts. There is nothing being done by the coaches or the school administration involved that warrant comments such as are mentioned below (ego and stupidity..The young people do not have to put up with ridiculous rules) Before one makes statements like this, the complete facts should be known. However, this forum is not the place to try the athlete, the school, the coaches, or the PIAA, or air the facts. It is, as it should be, an issue that is and should be dealt with internally within the confines of the school system. Just like discipline hearing are not open to the public, internal affairs of a school system's program that involve students and staff should only be appropriately discussed in private. If and when it is appropriate, the facts will be released to the appropriate media by the parties involved. Let the appropriate administrative body(ies) handle this according to their policies in the professional manor that they are entitled. In the meantime, please let us use this forum for what it is intendeddiscusion of current coaching issues, meet results, and training information. Leave the other comments for the grocery store tabloids. J. Fred Duckett wrote: Ed Grant is absolutely right. What are coaches for - hard-nosed polcemen, or educators adding their area of taaching to the youngsters in their care. This is certainly a major case of ego and stupidity - yes stupidity!!. The young people do not have to putup with ridiculous rules like these, and if they did, an appropriate penalty might be found. These concrete-heads on the Hershey staff are merely put-out because they are faced with the accomplished fact that they have a runner who does not need them. I wish that at the small school where I help coach that we could find a talent of this strength. J. Fred Duckett, Houston, Texas --- Ed Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Netters: The Pennsylvania case cited by Walt Murphy sounds at this slkight distance across the Delaware as a case of a clash of egos. It is always possible that more is involved than was contained in the Inquirer story, but, on the surface, it does appear as much ado about nothing. One would think that the coaches would be happy to have a talented runner who trains year-around and is always in shape. What she does during the summer as far as competition is concerned is really none of their business, something school people on all levels seem to have a hard time understanding. Coaches can ask their runners to eschew off-season competition, but that's about all they can do, legally. The takj oif bringing the PIAA into this case is sheer nonsense; a civil cour (while unfortunate) would be another matter. I did not like that part of the story which seemed to say that the school was worried about have an ineligible runner on their team after her transfer last year. When are these people going to realize that it is, oince again, none of their business where a student attends school--the US Supreme Court long ago made it clear that this is a parental choice. The athletic advantage rule, if it ever got that far, would last about five minutes. It is not only unconstituional, it is revolting. As a judge said to the PIAA in another Pennsylvania matter several years ago, in effect: Prove to me that the school recruited the athlete and I'll listen to you; otherwise, shut up. Just because high school associations lack the funds to establish an athletic FBI of the type the NCAA has does not give them any license to pass rules that deny students their right---yes, my dear folks, it is a right, not a privilege---to try to make their school's athletic teams. The usual penalty for missing a practice or two is suspension from the next competition and a requirement of daily attendance if the suspension is to be lifted. Practices in individual sports held before the day school stars should be voluntary anyway, particularly if they clash with family vacation times. (Team sports are another matter, but cross-country is not essentially a team sport; the absence of one runner does not affect the training progress of her teammates the way an absent football player might) I can't recall a case of this kind in my long time observing sports in NJ. The only thing CC coaches worry about is whether their charges do some summer running and report if fairly good condition. Obviously, this girl did that. Ed Grant . __ Do you Yahoo!? Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos More http://faith.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: Radcliffe 2:17:18!
Clearly and obviously Radcliffe. UG Quoting Lee Nichols [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I can't imagine any scenario in which Radcliffe doesn't win AOY now. -- Lee Nichols Assistant News Editor The Austin Chronicle 512/454-5766 ext. 138 fax 512/458-6910 http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/authors/leenichols.html
RE: t-and-f: AOY
Also note that there are other factors that might influence voting on something like POY. Such as the weahter (recall that there was a down pour in Munich during Radcliffe's run. This is cancelled out by the wind in Chicago? Hard to say.) AND she ran 30:01 solo- sans rabbit. While I'm not 100% certain Radcliffe and the women had pace making help I know the men did and have read enough to be confident that she was aided in Chicago in this way but not in Munich. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ed and Dana Parrot Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:08 AM To: Athletics Subject: Re: t-and-f: AOY I completely agree with gh that strict comparisons are not accurate and in fact I would dismiss male-female comparison charts the same way I dismiss using age grading tables for absolute type comparisons at the elite level (they are great for more low-key stuff). But I have always believed that a 30:00 10K and a 2:20 marathon are roughly equivalent for men (Purdy-Gardner equates a 30:00 almost exactly with a 2:20). And given that there is absolutely no empirical evidence that men's and women's performance difference change much with distance - a common misconception - I see no reason not to make the same basic relative assumption for women. This is not completely hard evidence, of course. Radcliffe's marathon is inherently superior to a 30:01 10K. Few men have ever run 2:17 without breaking 30:00, although a buddy of mine, Rich Hanna, has done so. That said, POY is more than just comparative times, isn't it? Doesn't it take into account the circumstances of the race, etc., etc.? I am convinced Radcliffe is a better marathoner than a 10K runner, so my gut tells me that her performance in the 10K was just as impressive as her marathon, even if it doesn't look that way on paper. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: AOY on 10/13/02 10:35, Martin J. Dixon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That marathon time is equivalent to a 29:28(26:02 male) effort however which is just under the WR. Says who? Given the relatively new nature of each event on the international front, and the incertitude of the value of various marathon courses, I say such comparisons are almost impossible to generate. Even if the science existed to make valid comparisons, I'd say the amount of data available is still too small to be a valid sample. (Yo, Rich McCann, help me here!) Gh
RE: t-and-f: chip vs. gun times at Chicago
I might have missed some of the follow-up conversation on this but I do not see where you are getting this information from. I am looking at a set of results from the press room and the following is a sample of the times: Place/Name/Chip Time/Gun Time 11. Ben Kimondiu/2:13:55/2:13:57 12. Kyle Baker/2:14:12/2:14:13 13. Clint Verran/2:14:16/2:14:17 14. Keith Dowling/2:14:21/2:14:22 15. Ryan Shay/2:14:29/2:14:30 16. Peter De La Cerda/2:14:40/2:14:41 17. Kentaro Ito/2:14:40/2:14:41 18. Josh Cox/2:15:00/2:15:01 19. Ian Syster/2:16:02/2:16:04 20. Abdelah Behar/2:16:12/2:16:14 Weldon Johnson, the women's pace-setter started well behind the start line and had chip/gun times of 2:17:50 and 2:18:10. The next guy with a bigger discrepancy was the 35th finisher The top 10 women had identical chip/gun times; after that a series of 2-3 second differences appears. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: chip vs. gun times at Chicago Looking at the Chicago results, virtually every person outside the top ten, including names like Kimondiu, de la Cerda, Dowling, Cox, and Shay, had gun times that were 20-25 seconds slower than their chip times. I've seen pictures of the Boston start, and heard similar stories from New York, with the elite getting a substantial buffer zone on the masses. But do even sub-2:15 guys now count as the masses and have to give up what appears to be, based on the time involved, upwards of 100 meters? I can't imagine any race actually has a buffer zone that size - that's bigger than a city block in most downtowns. What's going on here? Another question: are the split times listed chip times? Kimondiu's half-way split (1:02:10) is faster than the top finishers by almost exactly the difference between his gun- and chip times at the finish. My interpretation is that he made up the 21-second gap from the start and was running with the leaders at halfway, but maybe I should read all the reports for myself. david
Re: t-and-f: chip vs. gun times at Chicago
They have adjusted the chip times from yesterday to today. The 42nd place finisher, for example, had a 25 second differential yesterday and now it is 5 seconds. The chip time has been increased. Regards, Martin Post, Marty wrote: I might have missed some of the follow-up conversation on this but I do not see where you are getting this information from. I am looking at a set of results from the press room and the following is a sample of the times: Place/Name/Chip Time/Gun Time 11. Ben Kimondiu/2:13:55/2:13:57 12. Kyle Baker/2:14:12/2:14:13 13. Clint Verran/2:14:16/2:14:17 14. Keith Dowling/2:14:21/2:14:22 15. Ryan Shay/2:14:29/2:14:30 16. Peter De La Cerda/2:14:40/2:14:41 17. Kentaro Ito/2:14:40/2:14:41 18. Josh Cox/2:15:00/2:15:01 19. Ian Syster/2:16:02/2:16:04 20. Abdelah Behar/2:16:12/2:16:14 Weldon Johnson, the women's pace-setter started well behind the start line and had chip/gun times of 2:17:50 and 2:18:10. The next guy with a bigger discrepancy was the 35th finisher The top 10 women had identical chip/gun times; after that a series of 2-3 second differences appears. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 4:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: chip vs. gun times at Chicago Looking at the Chicago results, virtually every person outside the top ten, including names like Kimondiu, de la Cerda, Dowling, Cox, and Shay, had gun times that were 20-25 seconds slower than their chip times. I've seen pictures of the Boston start, and heard similar stories from New York, with the elite getting a substantial buffer zone on the masses. But do even sub-2:15 guys now count as the masses and have to give up what appears to be, based on the time involved, upwards of 100 meters? I can't imagine any race actually has a buffer zone that size - that's bigger than a city block in most downtowns. What's going on here? Another question: are the split times listed chip times? Kimondiu's half-way split (1:02:10) is faster than the top finishers by almost exactly the difference between his gun- and chip times at the finish. My interpretation is that he made up the 21-second gap from the start and was running with the leaders at halfway, but maybe I should read all the reports for myself. david
RE: t-and-f: Men: Top 10 Chicago Make that top 100
NYC and Meb have announced that he is running in New York. Jill M. Geer USATF Director of Communications [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone/fax: 508-695-0595 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of malmo Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Men: Top 10 Chicago Make that top 100 I believe the RUMOR was NYC for MEB. malmo only approved rumors get past me -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 2:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Men: Top 10 Chicago Make that top 100 I thought somebody said Meb was gonna run Chicago. Anybody know if he started or not, and how the day went for him? RT
Re: t-and-f: Eastman
in what i guess was meant to be a sharp rebuke, an private poster said this relative to my screed slamming the Hall of Fame: gh..ANYONE can nominate an athlete..what's the problem? you guys complain but who have YOU nominated I'd like to thank the poster for putting an even sharper point on my bitching. Yes, ANYONE can nominate, and even worse, just about ANYONE can vote. Who said this was a democracy? At this point, let me paraphrase one of my fave Dennis Miller routines: You know, I'm always worried when I get on a train and I see the cord you can pull to stop the train. Color me skeptical, but I'm not sure I want to be on any form of mass transit where the general public has access to the #$@*#$! brakes. We're goin' off the tracks at 200mph because Gus thought he saw a woodchuck. Well, this just in: Gus has nominated the woodchuck for next year's HOF class and says he's going to vote for him. gh
t-and-f: speaking of AOYs......
I think a decent case for men's Athlete Of The Year can now be made for Khannouchi, although I continue to lean towards Sánchez myself. gh
t-and-f: Montgomery's weight
remember last month we were talking about sprinter's weights. Monty has been listed as 155, but I ntoed he looked 5-10lb heavier when doing his posing routine in Paris. We talked to him this weekend and he noted that he was 128 when was a frosh at Blinn, and is 160 now. Quote: 32lbs. of muscle gh
Re: t-and-f: Ben Eastman et al
From: Ed Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] Netters: Since I don;t get the Times on a daily basis, I had missed Frank Litsky's obit on Ben Eastman, but will get to the library pronto to read it. Eastman;s absence from the Hall of Fame is certainly a big boo-boo, but noty the only one. At least two New Jersey athletes should have been indi=ucyed long ago: Al Blozis, who dimnated the shot put world the same way Cornelius Warmerdam did the PV in the same era (early 40's) and John Borican, who shared worlkd indoor recoirds at both 600 and 1000 yards Borican--who IMHO has no place in the Hall--was enshrined with the '00 class. Perhaps he got overlooked becuase he was one added by the oldtimers committee. As for Blozis, he def. belongs in the Hall, but to same he dominated the shot the way Warmerdam did the vault is a bit of a stretch. Blozis was the world leader 3 times (40-41-42), but Warmerdam was such 5 times (40-44, after a No. 2 in '39). Indoor WRs: Warmerdam 6, Blozis 4. Outdoor WRs: Warmerdam 7, Blozis 0. Warmerdam's WR was still standing 15 years later; at that point, Blozis's PR didn't even put him in the all-time U.S. top 10. gh
Re: t-and-f: The records of Ben Eastman
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm sorry that I didn't learn about Ben Eastman's existence until after he was already dead. I would like to know more about his races. Did he simultaneously hold world records for the 400 m and 800 m? First of all, a quickie history lesson. IAAF used to ratify WRs for yard distances, w/ 440y and 880y corresponding to the 400 and 800. Since the yard races were a little bit longer than the metric ones (402.34m, 804.68m), a metric race wouldn't count as a yard record, but a yard record could count as a metric one. Unfortunately, this led to a lot of cheap yard WRs. e.g., Mal Whitfield was credited with a WR of 1:49.2y (worth 1:48.5m) in 1950, but Rudolf Harbig had run 1:46.6 in '39! Eastman's first 440 record was a cheap one. Ran 47.4 in '31 when the 400 WR was 47.0. But then in March of '32 he ran an amazing 46.4, so figure he ran the fastest 1-lapper ever by 0.9. A monster improvement. Interestingly, the first guy ever to run intrinsically faster was the same Harbig, 46.0 in '39. Obviously, the history was such that WWII cut Harbig's incredible career short, partic. since he got killed on the Eastern Front in about '42. But back to Eastman. In the 2-lapper he did an unratified 1:51.3y (that can be considered equal to the metric 1:50.6) in April '32, then in May '32 ran 1:50.9y. That record was broken by Tom Hampson in August. So he was the undisputed world's fastest at both distances from June 4 through August 2 of '32. gh
t-and-f: Hall of Fame problems
Netters: The first sport to establish a Hall of Fame, I believe, was major league baseball. In light of comments made about the trac Hall of Fame, a relative newcomer, it might be instructive to see how baseball went about it. This happened in 1936 in preparation for the (probably erroneous) celebration of baseball's centennial in 1939. (1946 would probably have been a better date, commemorating the first game under basically the same rules which prevail today, played at the Elysian Fields in Hoboken). A Centennial Committee was formed conistsing of the first commissioner of baseball, the two major league president, the chairman of the board of the National League and three major American league figures: Clark Griffth, Edward G. Barrow and Connie Mack (who was, of course, one of the original selections). They, in effect, were the first old-timers committee and sslected 19th century players and executives. The modern (post-1900) selections were left to the Baseball Writers Association, which continues in that role today, required a 75 percent vote for selection. Baseball is, of couise, a much more structured sport than ours. Eventually, it realized that something had to be done about the racial exclusion which had marred the sport for more than 50 years and outstanding stars of the old Negro League have been regularly elected since then by a special committee. It would have been well if, when the track and field Hall of Fame was established, an old-timers committee had also been formed to assure that stars of the past were given their proper place. There would not then be as many obvious omissions as we have today. It is, for example, ironic that an athlete like Al Blozis, who plainly meets the standard of total domination of his event for a reasonable period of years (in his case, the 1940, 1941 and 1942 campaigns in which he swept IC4A, NCAA and AAU SP honors and put up a series of marks, indoors and out, which would have given him perhaps 20 of the top 21 spots on an all-time performance list had such a thing existed in those pre-statistician days) has yet to be elected to the Hall. And he is not the only one from that generation of athletes whose careers were blighted by the war that broke out in 1939 (in his case, it was more than a career that was lost.) Ed Grant
Re: t-and-f: Montgomery's weight
GOOD HOME COOKING ghill wrote: remember last month we were talking about sprinter's weights. Monty has been listed as 155, but I ntoed he looked 5-10lb heavier when doing his posing routine in Paris. We talked to him this weekend and he noted that he was 128 when was a frosh at Blinn, and is 160 now. Quote: 32lbs. of muscle gh
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #4103
Garry I can only help a little bit... ;^) 1) I don't know how we can make a valid comparison between men's and women's performances given what is the obvious increased dispersion of women's performances relative to men. In other words, women's elite performances over, say the top 10, have a wider spread than an equivalent comparison to men. Look at the world lists, and you will see that the 10th man on the list is consistently closer to the top performer than the 10th woman. (I have my theory as to why this happens, which I've expressed before.) This obvious and dramatic difference in population variance makes the creation of comparable performance charts for men vs. women problematic. Many comparisons rely on the assumption that the population variances are identical, which is clearly NOT the case here (and hypothesis testing requires that the proponents of equal variances prove their case). I would have to see the underlying algorithm as to how the designers addressed this problem. So, on that point there's no way to say if Radcliffe's mark is equivalent to 26:02 for a men's 10k. I have a hard time believing that Radcliffe is not only better than Geb, but also ElG (26:22~3:26) given the margin that they hold over the rest of the world. Also, under that reasoning, the old women's WR would be roughly equal to 26:20, also hard to believe. 2) That said, we can make inter-event comparisons for women. Using a linear minimization calculation comparing WRs average pace, men slow down about 7.481% for each doubling of distance from 1500 to the marathon. Here's a comparison of men's marks using this method: 1.5 1.6092 3 5 1021.10 42.19 0:03:26 0:03:42 0:04:41 0:07:14 0:12:31 0:26:23 0:58:51 2:03:58 This is quite close to other heuristic estimates of around 7%. If we apply this parameter to the women's marks then 2:17:18 is equivalent to the following performances: 1.5 1.6092 3 5 1021.10 42.19 0:03:48 0:04:06 0:05:11 0:08:01 0:13:52 0:29:13 1:05:11 2:17:18 If we run the same algorithm on the women's marks, which are skewed by the Chinese performances in 1993, we come up with a rather surprising result, that women slow down LESS than men even with the outlier performances at the shorter distances in 1993. If we used non-Chinese marks, the slow down rate would be even less. The rate is 7.18% slowing of average per doubling of distance. The comparative performances for Radcliffe's two races would be: 1.5 1.6092 3 5 1021.10 42.19 0:03:50 0:04:09 0:05:14 0:08:04 0:13:58 0:29:21 1:05:19 2:17:18 0:03:56 0:04:14 0:05:25 0:08:16 0:14:17 0:30:01 1:06:49 2:20:27 So, it appears that both of Radcliffe's marathons are superior to her 10k race. Her mark is equal to the 1500 mark, which is probably a good measure given how often non-Chinese women have run close to that time. An interesting sidebar to this comparison is how truly pathetic women's 5k racing is. The women do not have the excuse of a lack of races, unlike the 10k as pointed out by GH in the last TFN. The women seem to be stuck running at 70 sec/lap and running 10-20 seconds slower than they should be, even excluding Chinese performances. The marks are slow when compared to performances both shorter AND longer. Richard McCann At 08:33 AM 10/14/2002 -0700, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:11:00 -0700 From: ghill [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: AOY on 10/13/02 10:35, Martin J. Dixon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That marathon time is equivalent to a 29:28(26:02 male) effort however which is just under the WR. Says who? Given the relatively new nature of each event on the international front, and the incertitude of the value of various marathon courses, I say such comparisons are almost impossible to generate. Even if the science existed to make valid comparisons, I'd say the amount of data available is still too small to be a valid sample. (Yo, Rich McCann, help me here!) Gh Richard McCann M.Cubed, Davis, California (530) 757-6363
t-and-f: Tufts 10K / USA WOmen's 10K
Marla Runyan,frontrunning from the start, stretched the lead pack out between 3 and 4 miles and then held on for a win at the Tufts 10K for Women / USA National 10K Championship. After the hairpin turn just before 4 miles and onto the Mass. Ave Bridge back from Cambridge to Boston, only Teresa Wanjiku stayed with Runyan. Putting a small gap in the final mile, Runyan just held on and just beat a strong finish by the Kenyan in the final 300m. Amy Rudolph got the nod in a close finish for third - and the last open money; overall top 3 and then top 10 US took home checks Times only got faster through the race - splits of 5:18 / 10:22 / 16:05 (5K) / 20:42 (approx) / 25:38 (3, 4 not clearly visible from the lead truck which as to stop at points due to the course configuration) The fastest finish in the race since Elana Meyer's 31:39 in 1994 (#6 in the 26 year history of the race), wind gusted strongly enough to blow over the finish banner bridge set up - fortunately before finishers were near. The longest stretches of the course had mostly cross winds; only the bridge sections were head/tail winds. Over 6200 entrants, largest in recent years. Also deeper than recent years. Here the top finishers; also check the fax machine for top 50 page. Overall, I think you pull out the US for the page. Check www.conventures.com, but they'll be up on www.coolrunning.com before that Steve 1.Marla Runyan TN 31:46 $3000 + $6000 US 2.Teresa WanjikuKEN 31:46 $1650 3.Amy Rudolph RI 32:04 $1400 + 3000 US 4.Tatiana Khmeleva RUS 32:05 the doughnut - O 5.Eyerusalem Kuma ETH 32:13 6.Colleen DeReuck CO 31:28 $2000 US 7.Teyeba ErkessoETH 32:45 9.Elva DryerUSA 32:58 $1800 US 10.Katie McGregor MI 33:06 $1500 US 11.Blake RussellMA 33:07 $1100 US 12.Libbie Hickman CO 33:10 $825 US 13.Kristin Chisum MA 33:15 $675 US 14.Shayne Culpepper CO 33:22 $575 US 15.Jenny Crain OR 33:30 $475 US 16.Olga Kovpotina RUS 33:46 17.Melanie Cleland CA 34:11 18.Dana Coons VA 34;13 19.Amy Yoder Begley IN 34:16 20.Janelle KrausRI 34:22 21.Sarah Toland CO 34:26 22.Melody Fairchild CO 34:36 23.Sarah Hann NH 34:43 24.Rachel SauderAL 35:12 25.Beth Old GA 35:14 26.Carmen Troncoso TX 35:24 $700 1st 40+ Steve Vaitones Managing Director USA Track Field - New England Association P.O.Box 1905 Brookline MA 02446-0016 Phone: 617 566 7600 Fax: 617 734 6322 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.usatfne.org
Re: t-and-f: Hall of Fame problems
Has Blozis ever been nominated for the HoF? If not, why don't you nominate him for next year? The nomination form is available on the USATF web site. Ed Grant wrote: It is, for example, ironic that an athlete like Al Blozis, who plainly meets the standard of total domination of his event for a reasonable period of years (in his case, the 1940, 1941 and 1942 campaigns in which he swept IC4A, NCAA and AAU SP honors and put up a series of marks, indoors and out, which would have given him perhaps 20 of the top 21 spots on an all-time performance list had such a thing existed in those pre-statistician days) has yet to be elected to the Hall. -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
RE: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs......
As much as I would like to see a pure roadie -- none of this moonlighting on the track or cross-country ! - be AOY, Khannouchi's non-marathon racing this year detracts from his 2 stellar marathons. Good wins at San Blas and Kyoto Half-Marathons, but a horrendous 60th place at Sapporo and a 4th place at Philly is not the kind of performance you expect from an AOY. Throw in a 3rd at Falmouth, a 4th at an Italian 10-K and a 13th at another 10-K in Puerto Rico, and that's just four wins in 10 races. If anyone beats out Sanchez it ought to be the yet another undefeated year, yet another leading the world lists at 1500m/mile, yet another Golden League jackpotter, etc. El Guerrouj. -Original Message- From: ghill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:51 AM To: track list Subject: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs.. I think a decent case for men's Athlete Of The Year can now be made for Khannouchi, although I continue to lean towards Sánchez myself. gh
Re: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs......
Did he actually key on any of those races? It's the nature of the marathon beast. I'm not saying that he deserves it. Just saying that I don't think all of his performances can be evaluated the way they are in other events. Regards, Martin Post, Marty wrote: As much as I would like to see a pure roadie -- none of this moonlighting on the track or cross-country ! - be AOY, Khannouchi's non-marathon racing this year detracts from his 2 stellar marathons. Good wins at San Blas and Kyoto Half-Marathons, but a horrendous 60th place at Sapporo and a 4th place at Philly is not the kind of performance you expect from an AOY. Throw in a 3rd at Falmouth, a 4th at an Italian 10-K and a 13th at another 10-K in Puerto Rico, and that's just four wins in 10 races. If anyone beats out Sanchez it ought to be the yet another undefeated year, yet another leading the world lists at 1500m/mile, yet another Golden League jackpotter, etc. El Guerrouj. -Original Message- From: ghill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 11:51 AM To: track list Subject: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs.. I think a decent case for men's Athlete Of The Year can now be made for Khannouchi, although I continue to lean towards Sánchez myself. gh
t-and-f: ALL AFRICAN GAMES.
Now here's a variation on the Nigerian Money Fraud scam that I haven't seen before. (Note: In the unlikely event that some people on the list aren't familiar with this scam, I have removed the reply-to address. This is a dangerous scam, and people have actually been murdered and arrests have been made on other variations. See http://www.utdallas.edu/ir/tcs/techsupp/nigeria.html) Lee From the desktop of; Dr. Ibinabo Douglas Attn: Dear Sir, THE 8TH ALL AFRICAN GAMES. I am Dr. Ibinabo Douglas, the Chief Accountant of the Federal Ministry of Youth,Sports,and Culture, parent body of the Local Organizing Committee of the 8th all African game tagged[COJA] 2003 taking place in my country in 2003. In the course of our preparation to host the 8th all African games, huge sum of money running into millions of United States Dollars was budgeted by the present civilian administration of our president Chief Olusegun Obasanjo for the successful organization of this competition. In the same vein, the supreme council for sport in Africa made millions of dollars available for the same competition. However, in my capacity as the Chief Accountant, to both local organizing committee (LOC), and the Federal Ministry of Youth, Sports and culture, I and some of my colleagues in sensitive positions were able to influence the award of a contract for the supply and installation of some of the facilities that will be used for the competition. The contractor who handled these projects agreed to give my colleagues and I 10% of the total contract sum, if we were able to influence the award of the contract to their favour. So many foreign firms bided for this same contract, but because we knew whom we wanted the contract to be awarded to, we made sure that the contractor we had this understanding with won the contract. They have been paid 90% of their total contract sum remaining the balance of 10% which we never wanted them to collect on our behalf because of the fear that they might not give us the balance of 10%. It is pertinent to note that, the remaining balance of a total sum of seven Million United States Dollars(US$7,000,000.00) is lying in the suspense account at First Chartered Bank Lagos, ready for transfer into any good bank account of your choice. I have been unanimously mandated to seek for an honest and trustworthy foreign partner who will assist in ensuring the successful transfer of the above sum of money into his Personal/Company account since the Nigerian Code of Conduct Bureau does not permit us to operate a foreign account as public servants. On the successful remittance of the fund (US$7,000,000.00) into your nominated account, for your kind assistance you will be adequately compensated. Be rest assured that, the modalities and logistics towards the successful transfer of this fund has been worked out. All we require from you is your cooperation. This transaction is 100% risk free. We Kindly request that you accord to it the highest level of secrecy it deserves. Your swift response will be highly appreciated and kindly provide your phone and fax number for more informative discussions. Upon your acknowledgement of this proposal, I will forward to you the detailed procedure for this transaction. Note that, this transaction is legal and free from all sorts of risk and trouble. It does not contravene the laws of my country nor any International laws; hence the whole approval for the transfer will be official and legally processed. This transaction will be concluded within five (5) working days if we follow it up and give the serious attention it deserves. Awaiting your prompt response. Best Regards, Dr. Ibinabo Douglas. -- Lee Nichols Assistant News Editor The Austin Chronicle 512/454-5766, ext. 138 fax 512/458-6910 http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/authors/leenichols.html
Re: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs......
From: Post, Marty [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 16:19:20 -0400 To: 'ghill' [EMAIL PROTECTED], track list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs.. As much as I would like to see a pure roadie -- none of this moonlighting on the track or cross-country ! - be AOY, Khannouchi's non-marathon racing this year detracts from his 2 stellar marathons. In a TFN sense, KK gets lucky. In voting for AOY we don't consider any non-track performances other than in the marathon, so KK will have a perfect slate. (if we were RUNNING News we'd consider it, but please remember we're TRACK FIELD News--we're concerned with the elite Olympic sport, not all those tangential things that runners might choose to do in their spare time) If anyone beats out Sanchez it ought to be the yet another undefeated year, yet another leading the world lists at 1500m/mile, yet another Golden League jackpotter, etc. El Guerrouj. As always, I have trouble getting excited over another undefeated El G season based on a series of set up races. Let's talk about '96 and '00, where he didn't get a perfect place on the grid and didn't have preordained rabbits going out at a pace he requested. Oh yeah, he lost the biggest race in both of those years, didn't he? gh
Re: t-and-f: The records of Ben Eastman
Eastman ran 46.4 for 440 yards at Stanford on March 26, 1932, a world record by a full second. Two weeks later on the same Angell Field track he ran 1:51.3 for the 880, bettering the world record of 1:51.8. (The 800-meter record at the time was an equivalent 1:50.6.) Later that year, on June 2, at Kezar Stadium in San Francisco, he ran 1:50.9 for the 880 and was timed at 1:50.0 for 800 meters. (I think the picture that accompanies the New York Times obituary is of this race.) The IAAF accepted the 880 record but not the metric record. (Quercetani in his book on the half mile doesn't say why.) The AAU accepted both as American records. Still later, at Princeton in 1934, Eastman ran the half in 1:49.8 and was not timed at 800 meters. The IAAF accepted the mark as a new 880 record and as equaling Hampson's 800 meter record from the 1932 Olympics. In answer to Mr. Reardon's precise question, Eastman did not hold the 400 and 800 records at the same time. The IAAF accepted his 46.4, unconverted, as a record for 400 meters, but Carr ran 46.2 in the Olympics later that year. And the Kezar 800m time was never ratified. But he did hold the 440 and 880 world records at the same time and for five whole years. There, that is more than Mr. Reardon or anybody else wanted to know! Bill Allen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 12:35 AM Subject: t-and-f: The records of Ben Eastman I'm sorry that I didn't learn about Ben Eastman's existence until after he was already dead. I would like to know more about his races. Did he simultaneously hold world records for the 400 m and 800 m? He apparently ran a world record 46.4 for the 400 m at Palo Alto on March 26, 1932 (although at least one wire service seems to be claiming this was actually 46.4 for the 440 yards), which wasn't bettered until the 400 m finals at the Los Angeles Olympics on August 5, 1932. He also apparently ran 1:50.0 for the 800 m at San Francisco on June 4, 1932 (finishing 880 yards in 1:50:9, from which I would infer that the 1:50.0 somehow represents a split taken at 800 m rather than a conversion, which ought to be 1:50.3. Oughtn't it?). This however was never ratified as a world record. What was wrong? Here's to 400/800 specialists, past and... Jim Reardon [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS Three cheers for Paula Radcliffe!
t-and-f: USATF News Notes - 10/14/02
Contact:Jill M. Geer USATF Director of Communications 317-261-0500 x360 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org USATF News Notes Volume 3, Number 99 October 14, 2002 Runyan wins USA 10K road title at Tufts Two-time U.S. 5,000-meter track champion Marla Runyan took the lead from the start and turned back a fast finish to win the USA 10K Championship Monday at the Health Plan 10K for Women in Boston. Runyan withstood a charge from Teresa Wanjiku of Kenya to win the overall title in 31:46, earning $3000 for the race victory and $6000 for the U.S. championship. Wanjiku also was timed in 31:46. Amy Rudolph placed third and was the second American in 32:04, winning $4400 total, and 2001 Tufts Champion Colleen DeReuck was sixth overall and the third American in 31:28,earning $2000. A force on the roads this year, DeReuck won the overall 2002 Womens USA Running Circuit, which reached its finale at Tufts. The 2002 U.S. 5K champion on the roads, Runyan went through the first mile in 5:18 and picked it up the pace from there. The 2000 Olympic finalist at 1,500m will continue her march up the distance ladder when she makes make her marathon debut at the New York Marathon on November 3. For complete results from the 2002 USA Womens 10K Championship, visit www.usatf.org Dunn turns in top U.S. performance at IAAF Race Walking World Cup Team USAs men placed 12th in 20-kilometer team competition and Phillip Dunn walked a personal-best time of 3 hours, 56 minutes and 13 seconds to place 13th in the 50km, leading the Americans at the IAAF World Race Walking Cup October 12 and 13 in Turin, Italy. Russia swept all three team titles in the competition. Team USA was 12th among 19 teams in the mens 20km with 149 points. Russia won with 24 points with Belarus second with 28 and Italy third with 34. Kevin Eastler was the top American in 31st (1:28:18), with Sean Albert 51st (1:32:08) and Theron Kissinger in 67th (1:37:03) to round out scoring. Matthew Boyles was 74th (1:39:02) as the final American. 1996 Olympic gold medalist Jefferson Perez of Ecuador won the individual title in 1:21:26. The U.S. womens team scored 173 points to place 14th out of 15 teams in the womens 20km. Joanne Dow led the U.S. in 50th place (1:41:00), followed by Susan Armenta in 54th (1:42:14) and Jill Cobb in 69th (1:47:35). Russia placed second, third and fourth to score 9 points and dominate the competition, with Italy second (26) and Romania third (42). Italian Erica Alfridi thrilled the partisan crowd with her win in 1:28:55. The mens 50km team did not place after Curt Clausen and Tim Seaman did not finish and Steve Quirke was disqualified. John Sochek was 59th for Team USA in the race in 4:48:02. Russia again flexed its race walk muscle by placing first (Aleskey Voyevodin, 3:40:59), second and fourth to score 7 points, well ahead of second-place France (59) and third-place China (78). For complete results from the IAAF Race Walking World Cup, visit www.iaaf.org Burke to enter San Jose Hall of Fame Three-time Olympic hammer thrower Ed Burke will be inducted into the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame on November at the Compaq Center in San Jose, Calif. Originally a football player at San Jose State University, Burke made the U.S. Olympic Team in 1964, 1968 and 1984, when he was flagbearer for the U.S. delegation at Opening Ceremonies in Los Angeles. Coached by his wife, Shirley, Burke was a three-time U.S. champion in the hammer from 1966 to 1968 and threw an American record of 235 feet, 11 inches at the 67 Championships. His personal best of 243-11 came at Stanford University in 1984. In its eighth year, the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame recognizes great athletes and coaches of San Jose and Santa Clara County. Burke will join Betty Hicks (golf), Dennis Awtrey (basketball), Craig Morton (football) and Carney Lansford (baseball) in being part of the Class of 2002. A bronze relief of each inductee will be permanently displayed on the concourse of Compaq Center at San Jose. Presented by the Private Banking Group of Comerica Bank, in cooperation with FOX Sports Net Bay Area, SBC Pacific Bell, Hewlett-Packard Company, and San Jose Magazine, a portion of the event proceeds will benefit the Silicon Valley Region of Special Olympics. For information, please call the San Jose Sports Hall of Fame information line at 408.288.2932. # # #
Re: t-and-f: speaking of AOYs......
ghill wrote: As always, I have trouble getting excited over another undefeated El G season based on a series of set up races. Let's talk about '96 and '00, where he didn't get a perfect place on the grid and didn't have preordained rabbits going out at a pace he requested. Oh yeah, he lost the biggest race in both of those years, didn't he? Well said, but still sad, given the talent of El G and Bernard Lagat. After the Seneca Lassiter debacle, I think we're all getting fed up with rabbited races, week after week after week, where the only thing that matters is another record. bob
Re: t-and-f: Chicago and US runners
At 04:10 PM 10/14/2002 -0500, Mike Prizy wrote: I believe this group was following the pace duties of Rod DeHaven and Godfrey Kiprotich, who Culpepper gave thanks to. I think DeHaven pulled to about 16M. The US group went thru in 46:52/1:05:48 (see below) which indicates a much more conservative race, and way behind Culpepper. But, Culpepper's splits on the Marathon web site are 45:18/1:03:57/1:32:33 with a 4:56 finish average on his 2:09:41. Not bad for a guy who list Self as his agent and his coach. Richard McCann wrote: Culpepper ran an impressive debut, reeling in the field after giving them a minute at half way. But what's this pack of US runners? Looks like they were on a training run rather than racing rest of the world 12 Kyle Baker26 M 02:14:13 02:13:52 4 12 0:46:51 1:05:48 13 Clint Verran27 M 02:14:17 02:13:56 5 13 0:46:52 1:05:48 14 Keith Dowling33 M 02:14:22 02:14:01 8 14 0:46:52 1:05:48 15 Ryan Shay23 M 02:14:30 02:14:09 2 15 0:46:51 1:05:47 16 Kentaro Ito JPN 99 M 02:14:41 02:14:20 1 16 0:45:35 1:04:56 17 Peter De La Cerda31 M 02:14:41 02:14:20 9 17 0:46:53 1:05:48 18 Josh Cox27 M 02:15:01 02:14:40 6 18 0:46:52 1:05:49 Richard McCann Richard McCann M.Cubed, Davis, California (530) 757-6363
Re: t-and-f: Tufts 10K / USA WOmen's 10K
This from the AP wire: The finish was both dramatic and confusing when Wanjiku broke the winner's ribbon. Runyan, who has a degenerative eye condition known as Stargardt's Disease that has left her legally blind, was unable to see race officials waving her over to the winner's ribbon. But the entire width of the street counted as the finish line and the chip in Runyan's shoe marked her time correctly. Let's hope they didn't use the Chip as the determining factor - it is the torso, not the shoe. I don't know if this wording came from the race or just from a reporter, but it is not a good thing at all to be implying that the chip in the shoe was able to tell them apart. I imagine they had judges picking first place - if they didn't then they were delinquent. I have dealt with this exact issue in the past few weeks with a race in California, and if Tufts used the chip to determine first place (as opposed to time) and a large sum of money, they would be ripe for an appeal. It would nasty, too, if there is no evidence other than the chip. My best interpretation of USATF rules and the related RRTC guidelines for using the chip is that a race is not following USATF rules if it doesn't have some sort of backup system for identifying place based on torso. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Tufts 10K / USA WOmen's 10K
Message text written by Ed and Dana Parrot My best interpretation of USATF rules and the related RRTC guidelines for using the chip is that a race is not following USATF rules if it doesn't have some sort of backup system for identifying place based on torso. Actually, Ed, that's not quite right, at least as far as USATF rules are concerned. The chip time cannot be the official winning time. When chips are being used, the official time must taken by human timers (who are timing based on the torso), not by the chips. So it is not correct to characterize the hand timing as a back-up system. It is the primary system for determining the winning time. See USATF Rule 36.4(g). Bob H
Re: t-and-f: Tufts 10K / USA WOmen's 10K
Actually, Ed, that's not quite right, at least as far as USATF rules are concerned. The chip time cannot be the official winning time. When chips are being used, the official time must taken by human timers (who are timing based on the torso), not by the chips. So it is not correct to characterize the hand timing as a back-up system. It is the primary system for determining the winning time. See USATF Rule 36.4(g). Bob - You are of course correct about the winning time, but I was talking about place, which is not covered by Rule 36.4 or rule 37 to which it refers. In fact, is there anywhere in the rules where it allows the use of a transponder system for picking places? I can't recall it anywhere, which means that technically all places are supposed to be determined by finish judges as per rule 34 and rule 65-1, correct? So I guess I shouldn't have used the word backup for place determination, either, except that in practice the chip is used to determine both place and time at many races and for all runners except perhaps first place. Sooner or later I can't help wondering if the lack of a judge on a money place (say first woman over 40 or something like that) in a chip-timed race is going to really cause a problem. - Ed Parrot
t-and-f: Top Man and Woman
GH has a point on KK about looking at only performances in the track accepted distance of the marathon. Hell, how can you not give consideration to two sub 2:06's in year (man, what most every other mortal wouldn't give for two sub-2:06's in a career). It's too bad that El G's rabbited races are give so little merit. The guy still had to come out and perform week after week. And, it seems as though his level of excellence has become expected and unless he hits a WR his races are considered to me ho-hum, just another sub-3:30. Sanchez also had to come out and perform every week and won them all. It's a tough call on this front. I'm not even sure in my mind who I would vote for. To me however, the women's choice is clear and simple. Paula, Paula, Paula. The range of excellence she showed on raod, track and trail (okay garry so we won't count an international championship at XC) was spectacular. 3K to marathon, she had perhaps the most dominating performances of the year. A world record, international championships at Commonwealth and Euro's, fast track times, etc., etc. To me, she clearly stands bobble head, shoulder, and knee socks above the rest. Tony Banovich Billings, Montana
RE: t-and-f: Montgomery's weight
Gotta be CJ's greens! All that muscle comes from the salt pork gravy. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of jim mclatchie Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 3:51 PM To: ghill Cc: track list Subject: Re: t-and-f: Montgomery's weight GOOD HOME COOKING ghill wrote: remember last month we were talking about sprinter's weights. Monty has been listed as 155, but I ntoed he looked 5-10lb heavier when doing his posing routine in Paris. We talked to him this weekend and he noted that he was 128 when was a frosh at Blinn, and is 160 now. Quote: 32lbs. of muscle gh
RE: t-and-f: Chicago and US runners
You try it then, Richard. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Richard McCann Sent: Monday, October 14, 2002 2:07 PM To: TFMail List Subject: t-and-f: Chicago and US runners Culpepper ran an impressive debut, reeling in the field after giving them a minute at half way. But what's this pack of US runners? Looks like they were on a training run rather than racing rest of the world 12 Kyle Baker26 M 02:14:13 02:13:52 4 12 0:46:51 1:05:48 13 Clint Verran27 M 02:14:17 02:13:56 5 13 0:46:52 1:05:48 14 Keith Dowling33 M 02:14:22 02:14:01 8 14 0:46:52 1:05:48 15 Ryan Shay23 M 02:14:30 02:14:09 2 15 0:46:51 1:05:47 16 Kentaro Ito JPN 99 M 02:14:41 02:14:20 1 16 0:45:35 1:04:56 17 Peter De La Cerda31 M 02:14:41 02:14:20 9 17 0:46:53 1:05:48 18 Josh Cox27 M 02:15:01 02:14:40 6 18 0:46:52 1:05:49 Richard McCann
t-and-f: Track Field in Shea Stadium?
I just read an article about the history of Shea Stadium in New York, and it says that after groundbreaking in '61, the New York Parks Commissioner, Robert Moses, put together a proposal to the U.S. Olympic Committee to host the 1964 U.S. Olympic team trials at Flushing Meadow park in Queens, in conjunction with the World's Fair to be held there and making use of the new Municipal Stadium (later named after Bill Shea- that's another story) being erected there. The article said the USOC took it under advisement but the article doesn't say anything more about the Olympic Trials proposal. I know that the track field trials WERE eventually held in '64 in New York, but at Randall's Island. There's where Jim Ryun made the Olympic team as a high school junior. I have e-mailed the author to find out more particulars about New York's proposal- in particular HOW did they intend to utilize Shea Stadium. After seeing what Atlanta did in '96- original configuration track field, then reconfigured for baseball- I suppose anything is possible. Montreal was even able to do it without any significant reconfiguration. The article explained that what was built at Shea was really 'Phase 1'. The architectural plans were already complete for a Phase 2 to close in the outfield, bringing capacity up to 80,000. And Phase 3 was to add a moveable dome on top!- something that wasn't actually seen ANYWHERE until a couple of decades later. Apparently the structure was designed from the very start to eventually support a dome. Do any of you long-time New Yorkers remember anything about using Shea for the '64 Trials? And if it was possible to do a 1996 back in the early 60's- i.e. reconfigure it for baseball after conducting the big track meet- might it be possible to do the reverse for New York's 2012 Olympics bid- reconfigure Shea from baseball into a track field / opening ceremonies venue? There's been talk of the Mets looking for a new home anyway hasn't there? (the Jets already left back in the '80's). It would be a lot neater to put in a warmup track around the Unisphere, than warming up on a barge in the East River! If I find out more from the author, I'll pass it along. RT
