Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Andre Engels]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Shu Higashi  wrote:

> She encountered many barriers as a wheelchair rider at restaurants and
> shops,
> so she decided to take some action for herself.
> She set up a website named "heart barrier free" and started a project.
> http://www.heartbarrierfree.com
> (sorry Japanese only)
> The core concept of this project "heart barrier free" means barriers
> of one's heart. Most poeple do not know how to help a wheelchair
> driver, because we don't see so much wheelchair in Japan driving
> outside. Many wheelchair riders tend to stay at home.
> So, she thought that it is important to tell the owners of
> restaurants or shops how to help wheelchair users and other disabled
> persons.
> She designed a "HEART BARRIER FREE" sticker.
> She teaches to the owners and employees how to treat wheelchair in a
> narrow spcae
> or steps.
> And instead she sells stickers to the shop owners and the owners put
> up the sticker
> somewhere customers can see from outside.
> And now, the number of shops and restaurants with this sticker is
> about one hundred.
>

In that case I can see what use it has to have it in OSM, but it's not good
to use a generic term like 'sticker', which could mean many more things.
"heartbarrierfree=True" might be an option, but thinking about it a bit
more, what you want to describe is not really that they have the sticker,
but the accessibility to people in wheelchairs and how that is arranged.
Thus I would like to propose "wheelchair=heartbarrierfree" as the tag for
this.

-- 
André Engels, andreeng...@gmail.com
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Philip Barnes]

Hi Shu
That makes sense to me now, sticker could mean absolutely anything. 

Your proposal sounds very similar to wheelmap, which uses OSM to show
wheelchair access to businesses and the like.

You may want to have a look at http://wheelmap.org/en and
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Wheelmap as you can maybe make use of
this?

Hope this helps
Phil (trigpoint)

On Fri, 2013-07-05 at 15:58 +0900, Shu Higashi wrote:
> Hi Philip,
> Thanks for your comment.
> Sorry for my poor English in advance.
> 
> I have a friend who had spinal cord injury by an accident
> in Japan several years ago and she is a wheelchair driver now.
> 
> She encountered many barriers as a wheelchair rider at restaurants and shops,
> so she decided to take some action for herself.
> She set up a website named "heart barrier free" and started a project.
> http://www.heartbarrierfree.com
> (sorry Japanese only)
> The core concept of this project "heart barrier free" means barriers
> of one's heart. Most poeple do not know how to help a wheelchair
> driver, because we don't see so much wheelchair in Japan driving
> outside. Many wheelchair riders tend to stay at home.
> So, she thought that it is important to tell the owners of
> restaurants or shops how to help wheelchair users and other disabled persons.
> She designed a "HEART BARRIER FREE" sticker.
> She teaches to the owners and employees how to treat wheelchair in a
> narrow spcae
> or steps.
> And instead she sells stickers to the shop owners and the owners put
> up the sticker
> somewhere customers can see from outside.
> And now, the number of shops and restaurants with this sticker is
> about one hundred.
> 
> 
> 2013/7/5, Philip Barnes :
> > On Fri, 2013-07-05 at 11:28 +0900, Shu Higashi wrote:
> >> I'd like to propose a tag "sticker" which is already used 103 times
> >> according to taginfo.
> >> This tag can be used in combination with many kind of POIs which has
> >> stickers.
> >> I think this tag would be useful for developing thematic maps in
> >> cooperation with social activities using stickers.
> >> Any suggestions?
> >>
> >> Example:
> >>
> >> amenity=restaurant
> >> sticker=yes
> >> image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
> >> website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
> >> name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project
> >>
> > I must admit I don't get this,
> > What are the stickers for?
> > Who puts them there?
> > Does it have any relevance to the restaurant?
> > Any more examples so that we can understand this proposal?
> > Can you explain the social activities?
> >
> > Thanks Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> >
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

On 05/lug/2013, at 04:28, Shu Higashi  wrote:

> amenity=restaurant
> sticker=yes
> image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
> website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
> name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project


if you tag it this way you'll be able to tag just one of these per poi or use 
double values. Also I ask myself if you really want to tag the stickers or if 
it would be better to tag what the stickers stand for.
e.g. wheelchair=yes or heartbarrierfree=yes  
heartbarrierfree:image=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
...


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[me]

Why tag the sticker?

Surely it would be better to tag what the log represents, looking at
your example, it looks to me like the sticker represents a level of
disabled access. Which would be covered by the existing wheelchair =
tag? (In this example this would also improve compatibility with
existing renderers and apps like wheelchair map)

It also solves the problem that you might have multiple "stickers"; by
recording what the stickers represent rather than the exact sticker
it's much easier to represent and then find this data.

Cheers
Chris





Shu Higashi wrote:

I'd like to propose a tag "sticker" which is already used 103 times
according to taginfo.
This tag can be used in combination with many kind of POIs which has
stickers.
I think this tag would be useful for developing thematic maps in
cooperation with social activities using stickers.
Any suggestions?

Example:

amenity=restaurant
sticker=yes
image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project

Shu Higashi

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Ronnie Soak]

How



On 05/lug/2013, at 04:28, Shu Higashi  wrote:
>
> > amenity=restaurant
> > sticker=yes
> > image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
> > website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
> > name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project
>

How about an even more generic tag? Nobody would know what
'heartbarrierfree' would mean as a value to any tag without doing
additional research.
Also the same service could be organized by another group. it surely will
in other countries.

wheelchair:trained_staff = yes

Would be my suggestion.

Regards,
Chaos
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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Shu Higashi]

Thanks for many comments.

I found I've forgotten one important explanation. Sorry.

The concept of Heart Barrier Free Project is different from Wheelmap.
(I'm an ambassador of Wheelmap.org in Japan and talked on this with
Raul and Chris - the developer of wheelmap.org - several weeks ago.)
Wheelmap.org's evaluation criterias are phisical ones.
On the other hand, Heart Barrier Free Project's evaluation criteria is
very subjective.
A restaurant may be tagged with wheelchair=no if there are steps at
the entrance.
But, If the owners and employees have a warm heart to welcome disabled persons,
 and have some lecture on disability, they can lift a wheelchair and
can help to go to
 toilets and can put on a sticker in front of their restaurants.
Disabled persons like wheelchair drivers can assess the hospitarity of
the restaurant.
Several week ago, I consulted Raul about "wheelchair=welcoe" tag.
But, he thinks it may confuse users of wheelmao.org.
So, I proposed more generic tag.

Shu Higashi

2013/7/5, Ronnie Soak :
> How
>
>
>
> On 05/lug/2013, at 04:28, Shu Higashi  wrote:
>>
>> > amenity=restaurant
>> > sticker=yes
>> > image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
>> > website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
>> > name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project
>>
>
> How about an even more generic tag? Nobody would know what
> 'heartbarrierfree' would mean as a value to any tag without doing
> additional research.
> Also the same service could be organized by another group. it surely will
> in other countries.
>
> wheelchair:trained_staff = yes
>
> Would be my suggestion.
>
> Regards,
> Chaos
>

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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Shu Higashi]

s /wheelchair=welcoe/wheelchair=welcome/

2013/7/5, Shu Higashi :
> Thanks for many comments.
>
> I found I've forgotten one important explanation. Sorry.
>
> The concept of Heart Barrier Free Project is different from Wheelmap.
> (I'm an ambassador of Wheelmap.org in Japan and talked on this with
> Raul and Chris - the developer of wheelmap.org - several weeks ago.)
> Wheelmap.org's evaluation criterias are phisical ones.
> On the other hand, Heart Barrier Free Project's evaluation criteria is
> very subjective.
> A restaurant may be tagged with wheelchair=no if there are steps at
> the entrance.
> But, If the owners and employees have a warm heart to welcome disabled
> persons,
>  and have some lecture on disability, they can lift a wheelchair and
> can help to go to
>  toilets and can put on a sticker in front of their restaurants.
> Disabled persons like wheelchair drivers can assess the hospitarity of
> the restaurant.
> Several week ago, I consulted Raul about "wheelchair=welcoe" tag.
> But, he thinks it may confuse users of wheelmao.org.
> So, I proposed more generic tag.
>
> Shu Higashi
>
> 2013/7/5, Ronnie Soak :
>> How
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/lug/2013, at 04:28, Shu Higashi  wrote:
>>>
>>> > amenity=restaurant
>>> > sticker=yes
>>> > image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
>>> > website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
>>> > name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project
>>>
>>
>> How about an even more generic tag? Nobody would know what
>> 'heartbarrierfree' would mean as a value to any tag without doing
>> additional research.
>> Also the same service could be organized by another group. it surely will
>> in other countries.
>>
>> wheelchair:trained_staff = yes
>>
>> Would be my suggestion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chaos
>>
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery

[fly]

Am 05.07.2013 04:19, schrieb Stephen Hope:
> 
> On 27 June 2013 18:15, Bryce Nesbitt  > wrote:
> 
> -
> Baked on site is an important distinction.
> 
> For amusement: In the USA much packaged bread is sold with a label
> or sticker reading "Baked fresh daily" or just "Baked fresh".  As
> if... there were some other way to bake bread? "Baked fresh daily
> two weeks ago" just does not have the same ring to it.
> 
> 
> Well, there was a bit of controversy in Australia recently when it was
> pointed out that one of the big supermarket chains that advertised baked
> today was actually selling bread that had been created and par-baked in
> another country, shipped to Australia, and then just finished baking on
> the spot. I'm not sure if that would count as baked fresh or not.

Please no, baked-off are not fresh !!
fly



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Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi,

I think, there are two main objections here, that came up in this
thread: The key you propose and the objections you got by the
wheelmap-people regarding the wheelchair-Key.

1) The key you chose:
As other already pointed out, sticker can be anything, and even worse:
any entity can have more than one.
Think about stickers like "listed in tourist/gourmet/... guide xxx",
"save harbour for children" (we have something like that locally here),
"service quality approved by {any-organisation}" and so on.
You will find hundrets, if not thousands of these all over the world,
and the "sticker"-tag get's useless as the meaning is totally different
between values.

In contrast, think about what Chaos proposed: it's inside the
wheelchair-namespace (as it refers to wheelchair-users that's perfect),
and it's what your particular sticker should express: there is trained
personal who is able and motivated(?) to help you.
This is better for several reasons:
a) it's directly visible, what should be expressed (as long as you
understand common English language of course)
b) it's uniform across the world, even for stickers with similar meaning
from other organizations, or even for stuff not directly expressed by
stickers but instead e.g. by flyers and the personnells behaviour.

2) The wheelmap-People and the wheelchair-tag:
IMHO the wheelchair-tag as it's used now and as it's used by the
wheelmap is broken: It sums up many properties to evaluate the overall
useability of the entity by wheelchair users. Let's look at a few of
these properties:
- toilet wide enough and useable by disabled with a wheelchair: There's
a big difference between a small sports wheelchair and a big electronic
wheelchair, where not all of them are as small and mobile as the one
e.g. Raul uses.
- e.g. for a cinema: is it possible to see a movie with a wheelchair?
What's the use if it's only possible in one of six theaters inside that
cinema, and your movie is shown in anotherone?
- the wheelmap defines wheelchair=yes (their best mark) as "all rooms
wheelchair-safe". Great: but who cares if the toilets for
non-wheelchaired guests are above stairs? Or if there's a small part of
the room some stairs up, that's not different from the others in the
other properties?
- According to what the wheelchair people say, a shop that offers
toilets is only wheelchair=yes, if these toilets are useable by
wheelchair users; but why should that be necessary? It's not that common
that people need a toilet while shopping (at least when buying everyday
goods).

Therefore:
A fast-food hut that does not provide a sufficient toilet is
wheelchair=no, but a restaurant, where all ways toward it include stairs
some hundret meters away is wheelchair=yes (yeah, the restaurant is
wheelchair=yes, but you cannot reach it - cool!).

As a conclusion IMHO it's NECESSARY to extend the wheelchair-tags to
enable more detailled information, and I think, wheelchair:trained_staff
= yes would fit in there very well (but: it's not perfect either, as
it's not clear how to determine wether it's guaranteed that at any time
a trained staff member is available; but I guess that's similar with the
sticker you proposed).

regards
Peter

Am 05.07.2013 12:47, schrieb Shu Higashi:
> Thanks for many comments.
> 
> I found I've forgotten one important explanation. Sorry.
> 
> The concept of Heart Barrier Free Project is different from Wheelmap.
> (I'm an ambassador of Wheelmap.org in Japan and talked on this with
> Raul and Chris - the developer of wheelmap.org - several weeks ago.)
> Wheelmap.org's evaluation criterias are phisical ones.
> On the other hand, Heart Barrier Free Project's evaluation criteria is
> very subjective.
> A restaurant may be tagged with wheelchair=no if there are steps at
> the entrance.
> But, If the owners and employees have a warm heart to welcome disabled 
> persons,
>  and have some lecture on disability, they can lift a wheelchair and
> can help to go to
>  toilets and can put on a sticker in front of their restaurants.
> Disabled persons like wheelchair drivers can assess the hospitarity of
> the restaurant.
> Several week ago, I consulted Raul about "wheelchair=welcoe" tag.
> But, he thinks it may confuse users of wheelmao.org.
> So, I proposed more generic tag.
> 
> Shu Higashi
> 
> 2013/7/5, Ronnie Soak :
>> How
>>
>>
>>
>> On 05/lug/2013, at 04:28, Shu Higashi  wrote:
>>>
 amenity=restaurant
 sticker=yes
 image:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com//image/logo.png
 website:sticker=http://www.heartbarrierfree.com/
 name:sticker=Heart Barrier Free Project
>>>
>>
>> How about an even more generic tag? Nobody would know what
>> 'heartbarrierfree' would mean as a value to any tag without doing
>> additional research.
>> Also the same service could be organized by another group. it surely will
>> in other countries.
>>
>> wheelchair:trained_staff = yes
>>
>> Would be my suggestion.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chaos
>>
> 
> ___

Re: [Tagging] tagging of "sticker"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/7/5 Shu Higashi 

> The concept of Heart Barrier Free Project is different from Wheelmap.
> (I'm an ambassador of Wheelmap.org in Japan and talked on this with
> Raul and Chris - the developer of wheelmap.org - several weeks ago.)
> Wheelmap.org's evaluation criterias are phisical ones.
> On the other hand, Heart Barrier Free Project's evaluation criteria is
> very subjective.
>



Another idea might be to tag this as kind of "award" if there is an
institution that controls who is allowed to put this sticker on his door.
E.g. award:heartbarrierfree=yes
see here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Awards_and_ratings
This proposal was "rejected", but that's not a real problem, just read why
it was rejected and evaluate if the raised issues really do pose a problem
to tagging and if not, use it ;-)

cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Power transmission refinement

[François Lacombe]

Hi,

I'm pleased to announce the RFC begining for the power transmission
refinement proposal.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement

Two main points :
- Voltage refarming
- Power lines refarming with power=cable deprecation.

One question without consensus yet : must poles & towers be voltage
dependent or not ?


Thanks in advance for your additional comments and have a nice week end.

Cheers.


*François Lacombe*

francois dot lacombe At telecom-bretagne dot eu
http://www.infos-reseaux.com
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - landuse=pasture

[Volker Paul]

Think the major problem is who should a "normal" mapper determine the
differences. Not talking about mappers using aerials.


Well one of the differences is that on a pasture there are animals
and on a meadow usually not. Please read the proposal for more details.

Segatus


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=bakery,confectionery

[Murry McEntire]

The proposal talk page has been rather inactive, a bit more discussion
happening on the mailing list. I would like comment on the Additional tags
section of the talk page where tags such as
site_produced=yes/all/most/some/few/no, outlet=yes/commercial/local/no,
artisan=yes/all/most/some/few/no are looked at as possible tags.
Some of the other discussion makes me lean toward a mixed and baked on site
for the site_produced tag with an understanding the artisan tag is the made
from scratch indicator; but would like feedback and perhaps other ways made
from scratch, mixed on site, baked on site, finish baked on site, etc.
should be distinguished.

After looking at an artisan tag for bakery, I'm wondering if I should use
just two confectionery types of sweets and chocolates (dropping
artisan_sweets) and adding an additional artisan tag to that page (with a
slightly changed definition to drop the bakery specific examples)?

On the main page of the proposal, I have updated the proposed new article
pages with the right-side sidebar in common use on other pages.

Murry



On Wed, Jun 26, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Murry McEntire wrote:

> A proposal for improving the current misleading definitions and misuse of
> bakeries and confectioneries and adding tags for the types of goods
> sold.is now ready for additional comment.
>
> This is a revised version of a proposal that was strongly voted down. The
> split of bakery shop types is gone, the "diet:" version of some tags is now
> used, and some additional cleanup was done.
>
> The link to the (revised) proposal page:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal/Shop%3Dbakery,confectionery
>
> I'm be opening this for voting in a few days since this is a reopening of
> the commenting period started June 11th. I am interpreting  the first vote
> as comment for a strong revision of the proposal. A link to the previous
> proposal version can be found on the talk page (comments tab).
>
> Thank you to those who participated in the discussion for shaping and
> adding ideas to  the proposal. Thank you voters on the first version, it's
> good to see interested participation.
>
> Murry (user CS Mur)
>
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[Tagging] landuse=construction vs. building=construction

[L. David Baron]

While trying to map some building construction sites in the South of
Market (SoMA) neighborhood in San Francisco (near the office where I
work), I was unsure whether to use building=construction or
landuse=construction.

The documentation available at:
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dconstruction
(see "Original proposal for this tag" link to
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Approved_features/Building_site )
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:building
suggests that landuse=construction should be used for a large
construction site in which a region is covered by construction.
There is a major such site in the area, the Transbay Terminal
construction project, mapped as
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/89383754 and
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/113511443 , which is clearly
using landuse=construction correctly.  This documentation suggests,
on the other hand, that a single building under construction should
use building=construction.

However, there is substantial existing usage in the neighborhood of
landuse=construction for the construction site of a single building,
such as many of the small rectangles in
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37.788&lon=-122.39363&zoom=17&layers=M

Use of landuse=construction also seems to have the advantage of
distinct rendering in the standard OSM Mapnik style and tool support
in Potlatch, one or both of which could be the reason for the
existing practice in the area.

In particular, I added two ways using building=construction:
  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/228167970 is an apartment
  tower under construction.  It's currently a structure about 15
  stories high, and getting higher every week.

  http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/227689990 is a square pit
  in the ground that has construction vehicles digging the hole in
  which a building is going to be built.

Though the wiki seems to suggest to me that building=construction is
correct for both of these, it also seems possible that
landuse=construction might be preferable, either for both, or
perhaps only for the second.

This leads me to the questions:

 * Should these ways be tagged as building=construction or
   landuse=construction?

 * If they should be tagged as building=construction, should the
   standard map style display building=construction differently
   (perhaps more like landuse=construction)?

-David

-- 
𝄞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   𝄂
𝄢   Mozilla   http://www.mozilla.org/   𝄂

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