Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
Maybe this is a good value for entrance? Or is entrance only for buildings and related structures? Entrance=trailhead? Also, as I understand it, a trailhead can be the name of an area at the beginning for a route (with parking and other amenities) - or do we cant to make a new area as well - hiking station? Many routes have stations (like Mount Fuji) which are known points, such as the area around a node that should be labeled as a trailhead. I guess what I'm asking is, is the trailhead node related to the beginning of the trail and the area that surrounds some trailheads (formal or informal parking, road turnouts, information signs, amenities provided by a park only connected to a trailhead, it can that idea of amenities provided at an important part of a trail be expanded to include named spots (crossings, stations) elsewhere on the trail? Right now I'm using locality for stations. Maybe putting them into some kind of format that goes with paths and trailheads is a good idea. Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 7:12 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: If this is a point then it should only apply to a node. You have indicated tags of information=board, guidepost .. those should be used with the tag tourist=information ... Note .. Relations can include the trailhead node as an element ... but the relation should not include trailhead in its properties. Thus not part of a relationship property. On 13/04/2015 7:22 AM, Brandon Knight wrote: Hello, A trailhead can most simply be defined as the point at which a trail begins. My proposal aims to seek approval for the mapping and tagging of trailheads as nodes, ways, areas, or relations. Please see the proposal for further information. Comments and suggestions are welcome here or in the Discussion page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead Thank you, Brandon Knight geobrando ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
The trailhead proposal is long overdue. They are common around areas I've lived in the US. They usually have limited parking, signage, sometimes a place to pay, and some even have permanent or portable restrooms. Thanks for creating the proposal. I also agree and thank you for your effort. However, I don't understand why the area around the trailhead, even if it has a bunch of facilities, cannot have those simply tagged using existing amenity tags: amenity=toilets, amenity=parking, tourism=information, etc. Each of these can have its own subtags if appropriate, e.g., fee=yes/no, access=*, or what have you. I suppose marking out an area might be useful in a few rare cases but creating a relation would probably be overkill IMO. I also agree that a trailhead is a place to access a trail from another way, be it a highway or service road, and that while it might be the only access to the trail, other trailheads often exist. Easy to map as a node shared by both ways. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 5:12 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us writes: The trailhead proposal is long overdue. They are common around areas I've lived in the US. They usually have limited parking, signage, sometimes a place to pay, and some even have permanent or portable restrooms. Thanks for creating the proposal. agreed. A node for the location of a trailhead make sense. But help me understand when a trailhead way or relation would apply. I would suggest explaining it on the wiki. I think the basic issue is that people do not conceptualize trailhead as the literal junction of the trail and the road that it crosses. The trailheed is a place with some extent, arguably an area, that covers the parking area and any other associated amentities, and has specific trail access points which are the junction of the trails and the parking/builtup area, even if the trails begin again on the other side of the car road. So it's an area with some specific nodes that are on the way of the area and also on a trail. I would also characterize a tailhead as an access point to a trail instead of the beginning of a trail. agreed, and it's not just any place you can get to the trail, but a place that people are intended to use to start on the trail. (I am pretty sure Clifford and I agree,, but explaining that in case there's a US-centric difference in meaning lurking here.) +1 -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
On Apr 13, 2015, at 11:12 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 5:38 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com mailto:g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us writes: The trailhead proposal is long overdue. They are common around areas I've lived in the US. They usually have limited parking, signage, sometimes a place to pay, and some even have permanent or portable restrooms. Thanks for creating the proposal. agreed. Yea, since there are so many public lands wilderness reserves used for recreational hiking - access to them can be inside a park, or just where the trail or fire access road (used as a trail) meets the normal road system - a small turnout has parking, an information sign and a warning about rattlesnakes or mountain lions (if you are in Southern California). I think it would be good to define the start point of the trail as entrance=trailhead - it might also be barrier=gate, and it might be on highway=track, service road, path, or foot_path, even steps. and then have the area defined by the trailhead by leisure=trailhead - as it is all about access for a leisure activity - hiking, backpacking, etc and goes well with leisure=park, as there are some trailheads inside of parks, especially US/state parks with large campgrounds. A single named trailhead can be the start/access point for many different trails. If you separate the idea of a trailhead entrance from the trailhead area, then it is much more flexible, as some trailhead entrances have no amenities (or no amenities beyond an info sign, mappable on it’s own - hence no area), some are in parks and campgrounds, some are in suburban neighborhoods (where parking on along the street is the “parking” offered) and some are little turnouts or official parking areas inside a wilderness park that deserve to have a labeled area as a “trailhead”. examples I know of: a very tiny trailhead in a residential neighborhood (fire road entrance) (entrance=trailhead, tourism=information + information=sign) https://goo.gl/maps/Fhhm6 https://goo.gl/maps/Fhhm6 (Barker Way Trailhead) The major trailhead with a large area, amenities, and parking (leisure=trailhead + entrance=trailhead) https://goo.gl/maps/LrHK4 https://goo.gl/maps/LrHK4 (Cowles Mtn Trailhead) A small park, with equestrian staging areas, with a trailhead in the back. (leisure=park + entrance=trailhead) https://goo.gl/maps/kSwDe https://goo.gl/maps/kSwDe (Mast Blvd Trailhead) These are all for the same massive park. (mission Trails Regional Park) http://www.sandiego.gov/park-and-recreation/pdf/missiontrailstrailmap.pdf http://www.sandiego.gov/park-and-recreation/pdf/missiontrailstrailmap.pdf Japanese “trailheads” are often very limited in their signage, amenities, and maintenance (don’t expect a trash can or a fountain), as there are very few local neighborhood day-hikersin Japan (compared to Southern California). https://goo.gl/maps/7w5fO https://goo.gl/maps/7w5fO (trail access to climbing several small local peaks). local parks often have more amenities, but the trailhead is inside a park-reservoir-farmland-forest-wood-picnic_ground (it truly is a mix of public-private weirdness). https://goo.gl/maps/TIr50 https://goo.gl/maps/TIr50 on OSM http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/344006#map=17/36.40289/139.27677layers=N http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/344006#map=17/36.40289/139.27677layers=N (I mapped it last year) However regional or national mountain climbing peak routes are often intermixed with not only parks, but religious shrines (as they are old religious pilgrimage trails), but the trailheads themselves are easily identified (and often have Torii gates) Below is the trailhead entrance for Mt Nantai, after you enter a shrine, go through the shrine’s road, and up an access road, where the trail and the road finally diverge - but the temple’s main entrance below is considered the true trailhead for the route, so separating the two (area + entrance) is very useful, and can then be put into a route relation to connect the different highway=types into the hiking route, as I understand it. http://static1.squarespace.com/static/4fe43e48c4aa351883ffa840/t/52eca196e4b01b7c1a572f81/1391239575149/Trail+restarts+from+service+road%2C+go+through+the+gate.jpg?format=750w Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
There are archery ranges as well - do we want to follow the pitch model and have it defined by sport Leisure=range Sport=archery / sport=archery Or Leisure=archery_range Leisure=shooting_range ? FYI, these can be completely indoor facilities, so you should be able to put them on building=yes Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 5:43 AM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: +1 shooting=range looks uncompatible with anything I've seen. A tag that naturally comes to mind is leisure=shooting_range. There are onla 6 of those, compared to 145 shooting=range, but I think that tag is bad enough to deprecate it. Janko ned, 12. tra 2015. 18:17 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de je napisao: I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
If this is a point then it should only apply to a node. You have indicated tags of information=board, guidepost .. those should be used with the tag tourist=information ... Note .. Relations can include the trailhead node as an element ... but the relation should not include trailhead in its properties. Thus not part of a relationship property. On 13/04/2015 7:22 AM, Brandon Knight wrote: Hello, A trailhead can most simply be defined as the point at which a trail begins. My proposal aims to seek approval for the mapping and tagging of trailheads as nodes, ways, areas, or relations. Please see the proposal for further information. Comments and suggestions are welcome here or in the Discussion page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead Thank you, Brandon Knight geobrando ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us writes: The trailhead proposal is long overdue. They are common around areas I've lived in the US. They usually have limited parking, signage, sometimes a place to pay, and some even have permanent or portable restrooms. Thanks for creating the proposal. agreed. A node for the location of a trailhead make sense. But help me understand when a trailhead way or relation would apply. I would suggest explaining it on the wiki. I think the basic issue is that people do not conceptualize trailhead as the literal junction of the trail and the road that it crosses. The trailheed is a place with some extent, arguably an area, that covers the parking area and any other associated amentities, and has specific trail access points which are the junction of the trails and the parking/builtup area, even if the trails begin again on the other side of the car road. So it's an area with some specific nodes that are on the way of the area and also on a trail. I would also characterize a tailhead as an access point to a trail instead of the beginning of a trail. agreed, and it's not just any place you can get to the trail, but a place that people are intended to use to start on the trail. (I am pretty sure Clifford and I agree,, but explaining that in case there's a US-centric difference in meaning lurking here.) pgpI7jzanh8r8.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
I would tag sport=shooting as an area for preference .. that being the physical area where the shooting takes place. It should be used with some other tag .. say leisure=pitch? Pity the wiki does not specify it! Usually we have names for the area where things take place (pitch, track, pool) and the sport (sport=*) A range is one of those places. Usually there are no mixed ranges (archery and rifles, etc) are separate So leisure=range + sport=archery for an archery range or sport=shooting for a shooting range. Paintball is not played on a range. It is played in an area where just players are allowed during play - like a pitch. So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? I think shooting=range is not correct .. maybe shooting=gun to signify the type of shooting ... compared to arrow, crossbow, cannon ... Icons can follow the sport=* tag, as it does for other sports, right? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
The trailhead proposal is long overdue. They are common around areas I've lived in the US. They usually have limited parking, signage, sometimes a place to pay, and some even have permanent or portable restrooms. Thanks for creating the proposal. A couple of comments on the proposal: A node for the location of a trailhead make sense. But help me understand when a trailhead way or relation would apply. I would suggest explaining it on the wiki. I would also characterize a tailhead as an access point to a trail instead of the beginning of a trail. Clifford On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 2:22 PM, Brandon Knight bknight...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, A trailhead can most simply be defined as the point at which a trail begins. My proposal aims to seek approval for the mapping and tagging of trailheads as nodes, ways, areas, or relations. Please see the proposal for further information. Comments and suggestions are welcome here or in the Discussion page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead Thank you, Brandon Knight geobrando ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Straw pole Temperature=objective default unit?
As a physicist I don't like any value without units. The degree symbol is not needed, but C would be great: 21 C, 70 F. On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 6:43 AM John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: If it's 42 f, you'd go into hypothermia almost instantly. =} Assuming c unless explicit should be enough for mapping. Javbw On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:23 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/04/2015 4:50 AM, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 9 April 2015 at 01:52, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: Say a mapper tags temperature=42 Under what circumstances would such a tag be used. How would we know that the actual temperature is not 41 or 43? You want more detail? Say a mapper tags amenity=swimingpool temperature=42 Is that enough detail? The question is is the 42 taken as degrees Celsius or rejected as an error Presently 'degrees Celsius' is a little ahead of ' rejection' . Accuracy? really? in OSM? No dimension entry into OSM includes any statement of accuracy ... If you want a full statement of 'accuracy' it would have to be a statement of uncertainty with level of confidence and coverage factor. No .. you don't want to go there!! No measurement is 'error free'. They all have some uncertainty .. Reference http://kcdb.bipm.org/appendixC/search.asp?service=All For example NIST claim, in thermometry, for a liquid in glass thermometer at 'normal' temperatures their best uncertainty is 0.02 K (neglecting any contribution by the thermometer being calibrated). Note : BIPM uncertainties are adjusted for 95% level of confidence and approximately a coverage factor of 2. No .. you don't want to go to statements of errors and accuracy .. Instead .. what would a 'reasonable person' expect for such a statement of 'the temperature is 42 °C'? Most would readily accept ±1°C given the resolution of the statement. They may even accept ±2°C .. but not ±10°C. What would be acceptable for a statement of 'width is 1 metre' given in OSM on a path? Why am I wasting time on such a question? Because Andy asked. Suggest you do some research on it Andy. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Straw pole Temperature=objective default unit?
John Willis wrote: If it's 42 f, you'd go into hypothermia almost instantly. =} Not instantly, it's a popular hobby in some countries to swim in a hole in the ice. Look up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_swimming Assuming c unless explicit should be enough for mapping. Agree. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Paintball
Since most people here seem to agree on this and we also have sport=archery I created a wiki page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dpaintball Question is if we should to some retagging with shooting=paintball. Having done both, paintball and shooting are as different as basketball and soccer are from each other - you still put a ball in the net, but gameplay is quite different. Besides the similarity of the paintball gun to a real gun, paintball has more in common with either of those ball sports than shooting on a practice range. Getting the person out and capturing a goal in the play field (almost like dodgeball) is not the same as a skill contest to get a bullseye (with a lethal weapon). Also, paintball takes place in a field where people are supposed to be during play - and the opponents are targets - whereas at a shooting range... Targets are hay bales or cardboard, and people on the range face death by entering. Keeping paintball and shooting separate is a very very good idea. Javbw Sent from my iPhone On Apr 12, 2015, at 8:29 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: OSM differentiates between different 'football' sports - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Football 'Paintball' may be sufficiently different that it should have a separate tag. On 12/04/2015 9:23 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar wrote: Isn't shooting just aiming at non-living targets like what is seen in the Olympics? If so, then paintball is definitely different. On 4/12/15, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: There is still the question if it's sport=shooting + shooting=paintball or sport=paintball. They are both used to s similar amount. Hmm.. OK paintball it is. Thanks. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Paintball
On Apr 13, 2015, at 1:01 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Question is if we should to some retagging with shooting=paintball We don't have basketball=soccer, so I think it should be retagged. ^_^ Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
+1 shooting=range looks uncompatible with anything I've seen. A tag that naturally comes to mind is leisure=shooting_range. There are onla 6 of those, compared to 145 shooting=range, but I think that tag is bad enough to deprecate it. Janko ned, 12. tra 2015. 18:17 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de je napisao: I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
Leisure=range Sport=* Any place where you setup targets to practice marksmanship (with possibility of death if entered) should be a range. But maybe they are tying to pattern it after golf where the facilities and greens and whatnot are tagged as golf=* ~~~ Paintball would be... More similar to a pitch, as it is a team sports area, often setup with man made barriers for play. Some are large wild areas, but is a designated area with a border for play, So it should be leisure=pitch+sport=paintball Barrier=wall, log, stone and natural=wood can be used to micro-map a permanent pitch. Javbw On Apr 13, 2015, at 1:15 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trailhead
Hello, A trailhead can most simply be defined as the point at which a trail begins. My proposal aims to seek approval for the mapping and tagging of trailheads as nodes, ways, areas, or relations. Please see the proposal for further information. Comments and suggestions are welcome here or in the Discussion page. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/trailhead Thank you, Brandon Knight geobrando ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] sport=shooting Shooting Range
On 13/04/2015 2:15 AM, Andreas Goss wrote: I had already looked at this in the past and stumbled on it again with paintball today. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dshooting What's the best way to tag a shooting range? shooting=range make no sense to me. When sport= isn't a physical tag then how can a subtag be one? I would tag sport=shooting as an area for preference .. that being the physical area where the shooting takes place. It should be used with some other tag .. say leisure=pitch? Pity the wiki does not specify it! So shouldn't this rather be used for the type of weapon or a specific shooting sport? I think shooting=range is not correct .. maybe shooting=gun to signify the type of shooting ... compared to arrow, crossbow, cannon ... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
