Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 97, Issue 29

[Alejandro Moreno]

> Hi,
>
> In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
> excrement bags dispenser. In Talk-es discussed how to map these bins [
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html]
> and we did not reach a conclusion.
>
> There are 2 opinions:
> - 1 node with tags
> amenity = waste_basket
> vending = excrement_bags
> fee = no
>
> - 2 nodes
> 1º
> amenity = vending_machine
> vending = excrement_bags
> payment: none = yes
>
> 2º node (a few centimeters from the previous one):
>
> amenity = waste_basket
>
> What would be the most correct option?
> -- next part --
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>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 09:56:54 -0400
> From: Bryan Housel 
> To: osm-tagging 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] How to map a bin with dog excrement bags
> dispenser
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 2 nodes, please!
> It makes things much easier for iD, or any other data consumer that needs
to match features to tag presets.
> related thread on iD:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4191#issuecomment-318943309 <
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4191#issuecomment-318943309>
>
> Thanks! Bryan
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Alejandro Moreno  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
excrement bags dispenser. In Talk-es discussed how to map these bins [
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html <
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html>]
and we did not reach a conclusion.
> >
> > There are 2 opinions:
> > - 1 node with tags
> > amenity = waste_basket
> > vending = excrement_bags
> > fee = no
> >
> > - 2 nodes
> > 1º
> > amenity = vending_machine
> > vending = excrement_bags
> > payment: none = yes
> >
> > 2º node (a few centimeters from the previous one):
> >
> > amenity = waste_basket
> >
> > What would be the most correct option?
> >
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 16:18:19 +0200
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags
> dispenser
> Message-ID:
> <
cabptjtclguw0zx-sd_ocx7stfltwcmmdgmhsaqxkyf+7kud...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> 2017-10-10 15:42 GMT+02:00 Alejandro Moreno :
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
> > excrement bags dispenser. In Talk-es discussed how to map these bins [
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html]
> > and we did not reach a conclusion.
> >
> > There are 2 opinions:
> > - 1 node with tags
> > amenity = waste_basket
> > vending = excrement_bags
> > fee = no
> >
> > - 2 nodes
> > 1º
> > amenity = vending_machine
> > vending = excrement_bags
> > payment: none = yes
> >
> > 2º node (a few centimeters from the previous one):
> >
> > amenity = waste_basket
> >
> > What would be the most correct option?
> >
>
>
>
> As you ask for a "most" correct option, and as you write it is a
dispenser,
> "vending" doesn't seem the right term for this (nor does "machine").
> Although it is documented, payment:none doesn't make sense any way in
> combination with "vending".
>
> This aside, I'd use 2 nodes (objects) and not combine several things into
> one object, even if it is all attached to one pole.
> You might consider using the node relation:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Node but to be
> honest, I don't think it is evaluated by someone at this time.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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h

Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[José G Moya Y .]

I forgot to say you don't tag a fruishop as "vending=plastic bags;plastic
gloves" "fee=no".

El 10/10/2017 17:05, "José G Moya Y."  escribió:

> Hi!
>
> What city are you talking about?
>
> In Madrid, "Cacacán" bin is intended to dispose dog excrements only. Also,
> some municipalities are discontinuing the bag dispensers since there are
> people who takes more bags than needed, even without walking with dogs.
>
> I.E. in terms of environmental agents, the bags dispensed should be used
> only to deposit excrements on the same bin. At least that is what my
> sister, a local environmental agent near Madrid, told me.
>
> If the bin is intended to dispose excrements only, a "recycle=pet
> excrement" (maybe "recycle=biological hazard") node should be used, and no
> reference to bags should be used.
>
> El 10/10/2017 16:41, "marc marc"  escribió:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le 10. 10. 17 à 15:42, Alejandro Moreno a écrit :
>> > In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
>> > excrement bags dispenser.
>> it look like you have 3 questions in one :)
>>
>> one easy :
>> fee=no <> payment:none=yes
>> payment:*=* is useful when you need to add several
>> payment but when it is free, you 'll never have
>> another payment:* tag.
>> so imho free=yes is better
>>
>> the main question :
>> it is a waste_basket or vending_machine ?
>> the main function is related to bags.
>> the bin is useful only after you get a bag.
>> if you don't have a bag, you can not use the dedicated bin.
>> therefore the few that I have taged have :
>> amenity = vending_machine
>> vending = excrement_bags
>> bin=yes
>>
>> one node <> 2 nodes :
>> for me, one node is enough/better because the bin is related
>> to the vending_machine like a coffee machine with a bin
>> where you put coffee cup after use.
>> But if you still use 2 nodes, it is no need to move one away.
>> it like tagging for rendering and except for a very high zoom,
>> the rendering will in any case display only one.
>> This brings us back to the previous question: if rendering display only
>> one, which one ? if I see a vending machine on the map, I can expect to
>> have a trash nearby. by displaying a trash, I have no idea if a vending
>> machine exist nearby.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Marc
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[José G Moya Y .]

I mean, a grocery.

El 10/10/2017 17:09, "José G Moya Y."  escribió:

I forgot to say you don't tag a fruishop as "vending=plastic bags;plastic
gloves" "fee=no".

Sorry!!
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[José G Moya Y .]

Hi!

What city are you talking about?

In Madrid, "Cacacán" bin is intended to dispose dog excrements only. Also,
some municipalities are discontinuing the bag dispensers since there are
people who takes more bags than needed, even without walking with dogs.

I.E. in terms of environmental agents, the bags dispensed should be used
only to deposit excrements on the same bin. At least that is what my
sister, a local environmental agent near Madrid, told me.

If the bin is intended to dispose excrements only, a "recycle=pet
excrement" (maybe "recycle=biological hazard") node should be used, and no
reference to bags should be used.

El 10/10/2017 16:41, "marc marc"  escribió:

> Hello,
>
> Le 10. 10. 17 à 15:42, Alejandro Moreno a écrit :
> > In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
> > excrement bags dispenser.
> it look like you have 3 questions in one :)
>
> one easy :
> fee=no <> payment:none=yes
> payment:*=* is useful when you need to add several
> payment but when it is free, you 'll never have
> another payment:* tag.
> so imho free=yes is better
>
> the main question :
> it is a waste_basket or vending_machine ?
> the main function is related to bags.
> the bin is useful only after you get a bag.
> if you don't have a bag, you can not use the dedicated bin.
> therefore the few that I have taged have :
> amenity = vending_machine
> vending = excrement_bags
> bin=yes
>
> one node <> 2 nodes :
> for me, one node is enough/better because the bin is related
> to the vending_machine like a coffee machine with a bin
> where you put coffee cup after use.
> But if you still use 2 nodes, it is no need to move one away.
> it like tagging for rendering and except for a very high zoom,
> the rendering will in any case display only one.
> This brings us back to the previous question: if rendering display only
> one, which one ? if I see a vending machine on the map, I can expect to
> have a trash nearby. by displaying a trash, I have no idea if a vending
> machine exist nearby.
>
> Regards,
> Marc
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-10-10 16:40 GMT+02:00 marc marc :

> the main question :
> it is a waste_basket or vending_machine ?
> the main function is related to bags.
> the bin is useful only after you get a bag.
> if you don't have a bag, you can not use the dedicated bin.
> therefore the few that I have taged have :
> amenity = vending_machine
> vending = excrement_bags
> bin=yes



in case it is a dedicated bin you are right. Around here, these are all
usual bins and you can throw "anything" into them, not just poo. Nowadays
(and where I can tell), people walking their dog usually have a bag with
them, so even if the bin would be dedicated to dog poo, they still could
use it. On the other hand, AFAIK you can throw your dog's poo also in any
other non-dedicated bin.
If we look how many people are possibly looking for dog poo bag dispensers
(all dog owners), these are significantly fewer than those potentially
looking for a bin (everybody). But if you imagine how many people will use
a map (cellphone, app, etc.) to look for a bin, and how many for a poo bag
dispenser, it seems more likely that the latter case happens (unless you
are in a low waste bin density area). Some mappers will prefer focussing on
mapping generic infrastructure, other will prefer mapping things
specifically for animal owners, and both have good arguments on their side.

I don't think the "main function" discourse will bring us any further, we
have had this in the past (and it brought us "path" ;-) ), and we've moved
away from it for a reason. The "main function" depends on you and on your
life.

No need to add to tag fragmentation by creating new properties for
indirectly mapping things, better use dedicated objects for things and map
them explicitly, this removes ambiguity and makes it easier to amend them
with more detail later.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 10. 10. 17 à 15:42, Alejandro Moreno a écrit :
> In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog 
> excrement bags dispenser.
it look like you have 3 questions in one :)

one easy :
fee=no <> payment:none=yes
payment:*=* is useful when you need to add several
payment but when it is free, you 'll never have
another payment:* tag.
so imho free=yes is better

the main question :
it is a waste_basket or vending_machine ?
the main function is related to bags.
the bin is useful only after you get a bag.
if you don't have a bag, you can not use the dedicated bin.
therefore the few that I have taged have :
amenity = vending_machine
vending = excrement_bags
bin=yes

one node <> 2 nodes :
for me, one node is enough/better because the bin is related
to the vending_machine like a coffee machine with a bin
where you put coffee cup after use.
But if you still use 2 nodes, it is no need to move one away.
it like tagging for rendering and except for a very high zoom,
the rendering will in any case display only one.
This brings us back to the previous question: if rendering display only 
one, which one ? if I see a vending machine on the map, I can expect to 
have a trash nearby. by displaying a trash, I have no idea if a vending 
machine exist nearby.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-10-10 15:42 GMT+02:00 Alejandro Moreno :

> Hi,
>
> In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
> excrement bags dispenser. In Talk-es discussed how to map these bins [
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html]
> and we did not reach a conclusion.
>
> There are 2 opinions:
> - 1 node with tags
> amenity = waste_basket
> vending = excrement_bags
> fee = no
>
> - 2 nodes
> 1º
> amenity = vending_machine
> vending = excrement_bags
> payment: none = yes
>
> 2º node (a few centimeters from the previous one):
>
> amenity = waste_basket
>
> What would be the most correct option?
>



As you ask for a "most" correct option, and as you write it is a dispenser,
"vending" doesn't seem the right term for this (nor does "machine").
Although it is documented, payment:none doesn't make sense any way in
combination with "vending".

This aside, I'd use 2 nodes (objects) and not combine several things into
one object, even if it is all attached to one pole.
You might consider using the node relation:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Node but to be
honest, I don't think it is evaluated by someone at this time.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[Bryan Housel]

2 nodes, please!
It makes things much easier for iD, or any other data consumer that needs to 
match features to tag presets.
related thread on iD:  
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/4191#issuecomment-318943309 


Thanks! Bryan


> On Oct 10, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Alejandro Moreno  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog excrement 
> bags dispenser. In Talk-es discussed how to map these bins 
> [https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html 
> ] 
> and we did not reach a conclusion.
> 
> There are 2 opinions:
> - 1 node with tags
> amenity = waste_basket
> vending = excrement_bags
> fee = no
> 
> - 2 nodes
> 1º
> amenity = vending_machine
> vending = excrement_bags
> payment: none = yes
> 
> 2º node (a few centimeters from the previous one):
> 
> amenity = waste_basket
> 
> What would be the most correct option?
> 
> ___
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[Tagging] Fwd: How to map a bin with dog excrement bags dispenser

[Alejandro Moreno]

Hi,

In Spain it is common to find litter bins that have attached a dog
excrement bags dispenser. In Talk-es discussed how to map these bins [
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-es/2016-July/014171.html]
and we did not reach a conclusion.

There are 2 opinions:
- 1 node with tags
amenity = waste_basket
vending = excrement_bags
fee = no

- 2 nodes
1º
amenity = vending_machine
vending = excrement_bags
payment: none = yes

2º node (a few centimeters from the previous one):

amenity = waste_basket

What would be the most correct option?
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Re: [Tagging] airstrip vs runway

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-10-10 12:20 GMT+02:00 Andrew Davidson :

>
>
> On 09/10/17 21:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> The wiki says (undisputed and since version1 in 1/2008): "A runway is a
>> strip of land on an airport, on which aircraft can take off and land.".
>> Under this definition, you could at most map those airstrips as runways
>> that are _on an airport_ (if these exist). Note that it says "airport", not
>> "aerodrome".
>>
>
> I think you'll find "undisputed" means "unchecked".
>



> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aeroway says aeroway=runway is a
> "runway of an airfield" and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways
> says aeroway=runway is "The area of an aerodrome used for the landing and
> takeoff of aircraft".
>


yes, I don't think it was a good idea to make so many pages which all
contain definitions for the same tag. The key definition page is OK, but
the "Aeroways" page would have sense tp explain the concepts, give
background information, etc., but it shouldn't be a mere replication of the
aeroway key page. If we don't have anything to say compared to what should
be on the key page, then we could consider removing the page alltogether.




>
> If I can only map the runways of an airport but not those at an aerodrome
> then how am I supposed to tell them apart? Whereabouts on the wiki is the
> definition of what an airport is?



agreed, I have changed to wording on the runway definition page from
"airport" to aerodrome now, because this is apparently what is agreed, and
because it was already on the Aeroways page.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] airstrip vs runway

[Andrew Davidson]

On 09/10/17 21:36, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
The wiki says (undisputed and since version1 in 1/2008): "A runway is a 
strip of land on an airport, on which aircraft can take off and land.". 
Under this definition, you could at most map those airstrips as runways 
that are _on an airport_ (if these exist). Note that it says "airport", 
not "aerodrome".


I think you'll find "undisputed" means "unchecked".

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:aeroway says aeroway=runway is a 
"runway of an airfield" and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Aeroways 
says aeroway=runway is "The area of an aerodrome used for the landing 
and takeoff of aircraft".


If I can only map the runways of an airport but not those at an 
aerodrome then how am I supposed to tell them apart? Whereabouts on the 
wiki is the definition of what an airport is?




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