Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

One further tag that should be of use ?
description=VTC only

That should be helpful.


On 22/08/18 09:05, Warin wrote:

OK, so this is an access restriction - e.g.
access=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, 
say private_hire_vehicle?)


If pedestrians are still allowed to use it then
motor_vehicle=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, 
say private_hire_vehicle?)


and so on for other access restrictions.

On 21/08/18 23:05, yo paseopor wrote:
Yes , it is restricted to these vehicles. In the ground and in the 
traffic signs you can read VTC (Uber, Cabify). I said I don't want 
discussion about what is a VTC really and if should they exist. I 
only want to know how to map it, because in the Barcelona's harbour 
there are spots specifically tagged with VTC road marks, and I think 
they are not PSV vehicles so... what is it? How to map it? Also, in 
Madrid there is a lot of shared cars. How to map it? OSM's Wiki is so 
weak in these two terms.


Thanks
Salut i places d'aparcament
yopaseopor

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y. mailto:josem...@gmail.com>> wrote:


VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in
Spain. I think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the
Spanish name for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide
private transport services but are not taxis (their cars are
not equipped with taxi meter).



rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis
in some jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably
many more, e.g. France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in
Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy they are called NCC and you
need a license, are not allowed to pick up customers nor to park
your vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says they are a
kind of public transport without routes, the German WP says they
aren’t (in Germany). Uber (and others) don’t qualify because
they don’t meet the requirements (their drivers don’t generally
have a P-license in Germany, needed for the transport of people,
they don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and they
don’t adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of
transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending the
service is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers
(commercialization of the sharing economy).

If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that
provide a kind of service like these, we should craft the
definitions carefully and see what we need to require in order
to be able to identify and distinguish the different classes
that we want.


Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".

What is being mapped?
Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they
parked? Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
Or an office where these vehicles are managed?


--
In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire
licence" for Uber.

 Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they
call them? Arrr minicabs.
The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does
the UK map minicabs?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184


It is a can of worms.

.

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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Ture Pålsson]

(Replying to the thread in general, not to any particular message)

The concept of a VTC in e.g. Spain and France seems similar to what londoners 
call a ”minicab". Are there any existing tagging practices for those?


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

OK, so this is an access restriction - e.g.
access=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, say 
private_hire_vehicle?)


If pedestrians are still allowed to use it then
motor_vehicle=private
private=VTC (or some other term that is applicable around the world, say 
private_hire_vehicle?)


and so on for other access restrictions.

On 21/08/18 23:05, yo paseopor wrote:
Yes , it is restricted to these vehicles. In the ground and in the 
traffic signs you can read VTC (Uber, Cabify). I said I don't want 
discussion about what is a VTC really and if should they exist. I only 
want to know how to map it, because in the Barcelona's harbour there 
are spots specifically tagged with VTC road marks, and I think they 
are not PSV vehicles so... what is it? How to map it? Also, in Madrid 
there is a lot of shared cars. How to map it? OSM's Wiki is so weak in 
these two terms.


Thanks
Salut i places d'aparcament
yopaseopor

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y. mailto:josem...@gmail.com>> wrote:


VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in
Spain. I think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the
Spanish name for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide
private transport services but are not taxis (their cars are not
equipped with taxi meter).



rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis
in some jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably
many more, e.g. France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in
Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy they are called NCC and you need
a license, are not allowed to pick up customers nor to park your
vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says they are a kind of
public transport without routes, the German WP says they aren’t
(in Germany). Uber (and others) don’t qualify because they don’t
meet the requirements (their drivers don’t generally have a
P-license in Germany, needed for the transport of people, they
don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and they don’t
adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of
transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending the
service is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers
(commercialization of the sharing economy).

If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that
provide a kind of service like these, we should craft the
definitions carefully and see what we need to require in order to
be able to identify and distinguish the different classes that we
want.


Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".

What is being mapped?
Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they
parked? Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
Or an office where these vehicles are managed?


--
In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire
licence" for Uber.

 Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they call
them? Arrr minicabs.
The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does
the UK map minicabs?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184


It is a can of worms.

.

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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Jo]

Vehículos de Turismo con Conductor

Op wo 22 aug. 2018 om 00:49 schreef Steve Doerr :

> On 21/08/2018 09:55, José G Moya Y. wrote:
> > VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I
> > think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name
> > for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport
> > services but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).
> >
>
> But surely it stands for something? A word beginning with V, a word
> beginning with T, and a word beginning with C? What are those words?
>
>
> --
>
> Steve
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Steve Doerr]

On 21/08/2018 09:55, José G Moya Y. wrote:
VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I 
think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name 
for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport 
services but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).




But surely it stands for something? A word beginning with V, a word 
beginning with T, and a word beginning with C? What are those words?



--

Steve


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Aug 2018, at 17:57, yo paseopor  wrote:
> 
> prsv (private service vehicle) =designated ?


can you explain who can use the parking and who can not?

For the key I would suggest not to use an abbreviation. Private service vehicle 
doesn’t sound very comprehensive, if you could specify the kind of service it 
would be better.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] residents only after hours

[Jmapb]

On 8/21/2018 2:27 PM, SelfishSeahorse wrote:


On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 19:33, Greg Troxel  wrote:

If it's private, then access=yes is arguably not right, as permission is
granted to the public, vs the public having a right of access.

So I would use

access=permissive

instead of yes.  But this is a far larger issue than this one place; it
arguably applies to all paths on private land (that aren't a public
right-of-way of course) where it's basically ok for the public to go.

You are right, i was wrong. :-) Thanks for correcting me!

access=destination
access:conditional=permissive @ (Oct-Apr 07:00-20:00; May-Sep 07:00-22:30)

Regards
Markus


In this case, I believe (not 100% sure) public access to this area is 
officially required due to concessions made by the building developer in 
order to get approval for the project. It's common in NYC for developers 
to negotiate with the city council and create and maintain public space 
in return for some exceptions to zoning regulations, etc. The result is 
something called POPS -- Privately owned public space. The most famous 
instance of this is Zuccotti Park in Manhattan, which was the home of 
the "Occupy Wall Street" protests for two months in 2011. It was posited 
at the time that, because public access to the park was guaranteed 24/7, 
the protesters could not legally be removed. Of course, they eventually 
were anyway.


In the case I'm tagging, this is simply an asphalt road used during the 
construction of the building that the developer has blocked with giant 
flowerpots and plopped a few benches on, presumably to comply with 
promises to create public space. Not much of a park. But because it runs 
between two streets, I think it's important to map it. Obviously they've 
learned their lesson about guaranteeing 24/7 public access.


J

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Re: [Tagging] residents only after hours

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 19:33, Greg Troxel  wrote:
> If it's private, then access=yes is arguably not right, as permission is
> granted to the public, vs the public having a right of access.
>
> So I would use
>
> access=permissive
>
> instead of yes.  But this is a far larger issue than this one place; it
> arguably applies to all paths on private land (that aren't a public
> right-of-way of course) where it's basically ok for the public to go.

You are right, i was wrong. :-) Thanks for correcting me!

access=destination
access:conditional=permissive @ (Oct-Apr 07:00-20:00; May-Sep 07:00-22:30)

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] residents only after hours

[Greg Troxel]

Jmapb  writes:

> access=yes
> access:conditional=destination @ (Oct-Apr: 20:00-07:00; May-Sep:
> 22:30-07:00)

(ignoring foot/bicycle as that's not the point)

If it's private, then access=yes is arguably not right, as permission is
granted to the public, vs the public having a right of access.

So I would use

access=permissive

instead of yes.  But this is a far larger issue than this one place; it
arguably applies to all paths on private land (that aren't a public
right-of-way of course) where it's basically ok for the public to go.

See 'yes' and 'permissive':

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access


However, it seems the definition of permissive has drifted from what I
remember.  It used to be "no real permission is granted, but the owner
has declined to object".  Now, it seems to have a notion that permission
has actually been granted somehow.

I'm curious about this, and particularly from the English perspective,
where I've seen signed "permissive paths".  As opposed to the US, where
there are unmarked paths in the woods on private property, and for some
of those, locals know that it's basically ok to walk on them.


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[yo paseopor]

>
> i.e. they are similar to traditional rental vehicles with drivers, while
> other concepts were more aiming at circumventing regulation (which seems
> was ultimately not succesful, in the EU there was a decision to regard them
> as transport company and not as IT service company, as they had argued, and
> many countries have banned their business either as a whole, or significant
> parts of it).


Ok but that is not the object of that discussion . I have some official
spots for them in the Barcelona's Harbour (and I'm sure if I search in
other transportation important places I will find more. How can I map it?
Should I have to make a subtag like .e.g. :

prsv (private service vehicle) =designated ?

Thanks
yopaseopor




On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> 2018-08-21 14:29 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>
>> If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide
>> a kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and
>> see what we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish
>> the different classes that we want.
>>
>>
>> Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".
>>
>> What is being mapped?
>> Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked?
>> Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
>> Or an office where these vehicles are managed?
>>
>
>
>
> question was for a place with reserved parking, my question was about the
> "these vehicles" part: _which_ vehicles, because as I tried to explain in
> my mail, not all vehicle rental with drivers are the same class (what we
> want vs. "what exists": classes do not exist without someone creating it,
> it is us who decide what kind of class according to what kind of criteria
> we create - for mapping in osm). Example: it could be sufficient to have
> just one tag (or "class") for all kinds of vehicles (likely not for most of
> the OSM mappers though).
>
> Already looking at Uber alone, it is clear they have quite different
> divisions which offer different services which will likely fall into
> different classes, e.g. Uberpop, UberBlack, Uber-Lux, Uber-SUV, Uber-X,
> Uber-XL, UberSelect and Uber-Van. AFAIK Uber-X and UberBlack drivers are
> required to hold a transportation license, i.e. they are similar to
> traditional rental vehicles with drivers, while other concepts were more
> aiming at circumventing regulation (which seems was ultimately not
> succesful, in the EU there was a decision to reagrd them as transport
> company and not as IT service company, as they had argued, and many
> countries have banned their business either as a whole, or significant
> parts of it).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-08-21 14:29 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide a
> kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and
> see what we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish
> the different classes that we want.
>
>
> Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".
>
> What is being mapped?
> Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked?
> Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
> Or an office where these vehicles are managed?
>



question was for a place with reserved parking, my question was about the
"these vehicles" part: _which_ vehicles, because as I tried to explain in
my mail, not all vehicle rental with drivers are the same class (what we
want vs. "what exists": classes do not exist without someone creating it,
it is us who decide what kind of class according to what kind of criteria
we create - for mapping in osm). Example: it could be sufficient to have
just one tag (or "class") for all kinds of vehicles (likely not for most of
the OSM mappers though).

Already looking at Uber alone, it is clear they have quite different
divisions which offer different services which will likely fall into
different classes, e.g. Uberpop, UberBlack, Uber-Lux, Uber-SUV, Uber-X,
Uber-XL, UberSelect and Uber-Van. AFAIK Uber-X and UberBlack drivers are
required to hold a transportation license, i.e. they are similar to
traditional rental vehicles with drivers, while other concepts were more
aiming at circumventing regulation (which seems was ultimately not
succesful, in the EU there was a decision to reagrd them as transport
company and not as IT service company, as they had argued, and many
countries have banned their business either as a whole, or significant
parts of it).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[yo paseopor]

Yes , it is restricted to these vehicles. In the ground and in the traffic
signs you can read VTC (Uber, Cabify). I said I don't want discussion about
what is a VTC really and if should they exist. I only want to know how to
map it, because in the Barcelona's harbour there are spots specifically
tagged with VTC road marks, and I think they are not PSV vehicles so...
what is it? How to map it? Also, in Madrid there is a lot of shared cars.
How to map it? OSM's Wiki is so weak in these two terms.

Thanks
Salut i places d'aparcament
yopaseopor

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
>
> VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I
> think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name for
> Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport services
> but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).
>
>
>
> rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis in some
> jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably many more, e.g.
> France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy
> they are called NCC and you need a license, are not allowed to pick up
> customers nor to park your vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says
> they are a kind of public transport without routes, the German WP says they
> aren’t (in Germany). Uber (and others) don’t qualify because they don’t
> meet the requirements (their drivers don’t generally have a P-license in
> Germany, needed for the transport of people, they don’t typically have the
> NCC license in Italy, and they don’t adhere to other rules and regulations
> for this kind of transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending
> the service is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers (commercialization of
> the sharing economy).
>
> If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide a
> kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and
> see what we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish
> the different classes that we want.
>
>
> Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".
>
> What is being mapped?
> Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked?
> Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?
> Or an office where these vehicles are managed?
>
>
> --
> In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire
> licence" for Uber.
>
>  Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they call them?
> Arrr minicabs.
> The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does the UK
> map minicabs?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F
> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184
>
> It is a can of worms.
>
> .
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Warin]

On 21/08/18 20:26, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y. > wrote:


VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. 
I think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name 
for Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport 
services but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).



rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis in 
some jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably many more, 
e.g. France [1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in Germany Uber 
qualifies. In Italy they are called NCC and you need a license, are 
not allowed to pick up customers nor to park your vehicle on public 
space. The Italian WP says they are a kind of public transport without 
routes, the German WP says they aren’t (in Germany). Uber (and others) 
don’t qualify because they don’t meet the requirements (their drivers 
don’t generally have a P-license in Germany, needed for the transport 
of people, they don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and 
they don’t adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of 
transport). They are operating in a grey area, pretending the service 
is assimilable to picking up hitchhikers (commercialization of the 
sharing economy).


If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that 
provide a kind of service like these, we should craft the definitions 
carefully and see what we need to require in order to be able to 
identify and distinguish the different classes that we want.


Rather than "what we want" it should be "what exists".

What is being mapped?
Places where these vehicles are parked? For what reason are they parked? 
Is it restricted to only these kind of vehicles?

Or an office where these vehicles are managed?


--
In at least some parts of the UK the driver needs a "private hire 
licence" for Uber.


 Humm they have taxis ... but also hire cars umm what do they call 
them? Arrr minicabs.
The UK regards both Uber and minicabs as "private hire". How does the UK 
map minicabs?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtaxi#Taxi_shops.3F
https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=3184

It is a can of worms.

.
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Aug 2018, at 10:55, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
> 
> VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I think 
> the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name for Uber, 
> Cabify and other companies that provide private transport services but are 
> not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).


rental with a driver is a regulated category different to taxis in some 
jurisdictions, e.g. in Germany and Italy (and probably many more, e.g. France 
[1]). AFAIK neither in Italy nor in Germany Uber qualifies. In Italy they are 
called NCC and you need a license, are not allowed to pick up customers nor to 
park your vehicle on public space. The Italian WP says they are a kind of 
public transport without routes, the German WP says they aren’t (in Germany). 
Uber (and others) don’t qualify because they don’t meet the requirements (their 
drivers don’t generally have a P-license in Germany, needed for the transport 
of people, they don’t typically have the NCC license in Italy, and they don’t 
adhere to other rules and regulations for this kind of transport). They are 
operating in a grey area, pretending the service is assimilable to picking up 
hitchhikers (commercialization of the sharing economy).

If there are specific parking or resting areas for vehicles that provide a kind 
of service like these, we should craft the definitions carefully and see what 
we need to require in order to be able to identify and distinguish the 
different classes that we want.


Cheers,
Martin 



[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiture_de_transport_avec_chauffeur

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mietwagen_mit_Fahrer_(Deutschland)


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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[José G Moya Y .]

VTC is how rental cars with professional driver are called in Spain. I
think the rest of the thread clarifies this: It is the Spanish name for
Uber, Cabify and other companies that provide private transport services
but are not taxis (their cars are not equipped with taxi meter).




El mar., 21 ago. 2018 8:15, Steve Doerr  escribió:

> On 20/08/2018 22:05, yo paseopor wrote:
> > These days I am editing Barcelona's harbour. One of the things I saw
> > there is some places for VTC car (like taxi but private: Uber, Cabify).
>
>
> What does VTC stand for?
>
>
> --
>
> Steve
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] What is a VTC car in OSM ?

[Steve Doerr]

On 20/08/2018 22:05, yo paseopor wrote:
These days I am editing Barcelona's harbour. One of the things I saw 
there is some places for VTC car (like taxi but private: Uber, Cabify).



What does VTC stand for?


--

Steve


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