date:20200722

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 22:51, bkil  wrote:

> Although I think we've given enough evidence and _some_ of your quotes
> make sense, let me add another consideration.
>
> This is where bicycle=dismount could be used (although it is the default
> on highway=footway):
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Opastemerkki.jpg
>
Highway=footway implies foot=designated which in turn implies the sign you
show. The default for this is bicycle=no. (in the sense of dismount) in OSM.

>
> bicycle=no is usually used on busy motorways where dismounting isn't
> feasible:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C14.svg
>
On Italian motorways pedestrians and cyclists are forbidden. The default
OSM tags are foot=no and bicycle=no (the foot=no excludes the possibility
to walk your bike on motorways - so there is no problem there)

> Am I understanding correctly that this is what the wilderness rules would
> like to achieve?
> vehicle=no + scooter=prohibited + bicycle=prohibited + moped=prohibited +
> unicycle=prohibited + hand_cart=prohibited + wheeled_luggage=prohibited
>
correct

>
> I think if we concentrated on this case, it would be better to invent a
> specific access value to convey that they don't want to see you be in
> possession of anything that could leave a track in normal use
> (access=legged). When you go out with something like this in the wild, they
> could rightly infer that you would want to ride it when the park rangers
> are not looking. Not sure about the extent of such restriction, but it
> might also make sense to put it onto the natural area instead of each and
> every individual path of it.
>
Apart from the wilderness case we have at least two examples where walked
bicycles are explicitly forbidden, but other wheeled means of human
transport are not, like wheelchairs and baby buggies: the historic part of
Venice and Nymphenburg Schlosspark in Germany. And I am sure there are more
like this.
One thing which springs in mind are many underground systems (with one
notable exception that I know of: Helsinki)

So the problem does not go away. We need a generic no-bicycles-allowed-here
type of tag
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 19:33, Jarek Piórkowski  wrote:
> I think the problem is that bicycle=*, foot=*, motor_vehicle=*, etc
> are access mode tags, not possession tags.
>
> When you dismount from a bicycle, you are now a pedestrian who is in
> possession of a certain object. The access tag that applies to you is
> foot=*. You could be on foot carrying a large box, a wide hikers'
> backpack, carrying a bottle of alcohol, pushing a wheelbarrow, or
> pushing a bicycle.

To give some more relevant examples of wheeled possessions: as a
pedestrian, you could also be pushing a baby carriage/stroller, be in
a wheelchair or be pushing a wheelchair, or be in a motorized
wheelchair.

Wheelchair could arguably be an access mode, but the baby stroller
seems to fall rather firmly into "possession" category - and so, to
me, would a pushed bicycle.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Hiking "guideposts" painted on rocks, trees etc.

2020-07-22 Thread Warin


On 21/7/20 9:04 pm, Michal Fabík wrote:

Hi,
in some parts of the world, it's common practice to paint guidepost 
information (destinations, distances etc.) on rock faces, trees, walls 
and similar existing surfaces, rather than use purpose-made plates 
attached to a pole. (Example: 
https://osm.fit.vutbr.cz/fody/files/21255.jpg)



In addition to paint some are carved into the material (I am thinking of 
sandstone rock, trees do grow over inscriptions).



I would not be too worried by this as the renders probably will not be 
bothered to show such detail.




Do you think that these warrant their own tagging style?



No. The material the guidepost is made from is of lesser importance to 
the fact that it is a 'guidepost'.


Or is it acceptable to use information=guidepost, maybe with an 
additional tag (although I can't think of one off the top of my head)?


material=rock/sandstone/*


I know of some 'guideposts' that have no written inscription but conform 
to a style and colour that identifies them to a particular trail, 
similar to the white blaze of the AT. Yes, these are timber posts that 
guide walkers using arrow symbols so the term 'guidepost' suits.



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging motorcycle parking

2020-07-22 Thread Warin


On 23/7/20 6:42 am, Matthew Woehlke wrote:

On 22/07/2020 16.32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Matthew Woehlke:

Right now the only option seems to be to model the lot as two separate
entities, one which excludes the motorcycle spaces, and one which is
*only* the motorcycle spaces which could be amenity=motorcycle_parking.
Is this really the best way?


I am usually doing it like this (separate entities), it also seems most
useful for drivers / riders, because each group can see where are their
parking lots.


So... I'm not sure I agree with that. Maybe it's different in !US, but 
in the US, motorcycles can (generally) park in any car parking space. 
If we're going to use that argument, why do we have capacity:disabled, 
or indeed capacity:*, rather than modeling those spaces as separate lots?




You asked for 'better' without defining what better means to you.
To me it is 'better' to know where these things are (requires more work 
by the mapper) rather than that they are somewhere inside some area 
(requires less work by the mapper).


Disabled parking to me is 'better' mapped as a separate thing, as is 
truck parking etc.


While a motorcycle may legal park where a car parking space is the same 
cannot be said of a motorcycle parking space given  the usual sized of 
the things.



Tags may be available for those who cannot be bothered with the detail, 
similar observations may be made for surface=paved vs surface=concrete etc.



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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Allroads

The image are  traffic_signs, described in traffic law. Traffic_signs must have 
set dimensions.

There is also property access rules mentioned in law. Art. 461 in Wetboek van 
Strafrecht.

The owner can express by sign with text, images, sometimes they use familiar 
images. Like here. 
“Hij die, zonder daartoe gerechtigd te zijn, zich op eens anders grond waarvan 
de toegang op een voor hem blijkbare wijze door de rechthebbende is verboden, 
bevindt of daar vee laat lopen, wordt gestraft met geldboete van de eerste 
categorie.”
express “access in an apparently way for him is prohibited by the 
rightholder”..“is punishable by a fine of the first category”
This is a access_sign. NOT a traffic_sign.
https://images.mapillary.com/8ErC5D9pxN0AzAJ8YVrEAw/thumb-2048.jpg
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/8ErC5D9pxN0AzAJ8YVrEAw
“fietsen meenemen niet toegestaan”
bicycles are not allowed
here you need a hard bicycle=no.

Other situation:
Area rules, a access_sign, property access rules mentioned in law. Art. Wetboek 
van Strafrecht.
owner express “in an apparently way for him” He choose the icons. free walking 
( also next to the road )
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESsU0LrXgAMwTds?format=jpg=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESsU0L0XsAM3oay?format=jpg=large

The last not translated sentence.
“In andere gevallen verboden toegang Art. 461 Wetboek van Strafrecht.”
“In other cases prohibited access” 
With a horse, riders on designated path. Riders is mentioned, corresponding to 
the image
With a horse, walk with a horse. I do not see such image. horse with a leash. 
It is forbidden.
Where walking freely is allowed,  everywhere, you can not walk with a horse, 
because “In other cases prohibited access” no horse with a leash, there the 
horse is a hard no.
Even this asphalt road. When it is no designated path.

The owner determined. Sometimes it doesn't make sense.
We must follow, what he express,“in an apparently way for him”.
Otherwise you are in violation.

From: bkil 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 10:49 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not 
allowed here"?

Although I think we've given enough evidence and _some_ of your quotes make 
sense, let me add another consideration. 

This is where bicycle=dismount could be used (although it is the default on 
highway=footway):
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Opastemerkki.jpg


bicycle=no is usually used on busy motorways where dismounting isn't feasible:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C14.svg

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Jarek Piórkowski

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 11:35, Tod Fitch  wrote:
>> On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Jmapb  wrote:
>> If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the idea 
>> of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then I'd suggest 
>> a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a regulation key 
>> (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key. Total bicycle prohibition 
>> would be encoded with both bicycle=no and dismounted_bicycle=no, and other 
>> dismounted_bicycle=* values can be developed for whatever the regulations 
>> are in particular situations.
>
> Why? The suggestion that all the places that properly tagged bicycles=no now 
> need to be revisited and have a new dismounted_bicycles=no tag added implies 
> that the people who took “no” to mean something other than “no” prevail and 
> the rest of us have to go back and re-tag things.
>
> Since many miles/kilometers of ways will need to be retagged either way, why 
> not go with the straight forward “no means no” and “dismount means dismount”? 
> Makes a lot more sense to me that “no only really means no if there is an 
> additional dismounted_bicycle=no” tag too.

There are also many ways tagged bicycle=no which should actually have
been bicycle=dismount, because in very many cases traffic signs "no
bicycles" only apply to bicycles ridden (rather than pushed), but
editors will enter a "no bicycles" sign as bicycle=no. Either way we'd
have to do a lot of retagging.

I think the problem is that bicycle=*, foot=*, motor_vehicle=*, etc
are access mode tags, not possession tags.

When you dismount from a bicycle, you are now a pedestrian who is in
possession of a certain object. The access tag that applies to you is
foot=*. You could be on foot carrying a large box, a wide hikers'
backpack, carrying a bottle of alcohol, pushing a wheelbarrow, or
pushing a bicycle.

We do have a dog=no tag for "dogs are not allowed" which really means
"humans are not allowed to allow their dogs to enter here" (dogs can't
read the "no dogs" signs). Similarly in Mike Thompson's example, "no
alcohol" signs mean "humans are not allowed to enter here with
alcohol". Bicycles can't read signs either, but bicycle=* is already
an access mode tag. It would be strange for it to be both an access
mode tag (when ridden, applying to all bicycle=* tags except
bicycle=no) and a possession tag (when pushed or carried, applying
only to bicycle=no).

I do like Mike Thompson's suggestion of something like
bicycle_possession=no along with alcohol_posession=no - exact tag
format could be discussed, but I think logically it's the right idea.

--Jarek

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

But also consider that it wouldn't make sense to tag a motorway as
foot=no + bicycle=dismount (+ moped=dismount + mofa=dismount +
auto_rickshaw=no + agricultural=no), because the combination of tags would
create a completely new meaning, and that is not a preferred tagging
practice in OSM.

I.e., bicycle=dismount means that you can proceed after you dismount,
however if a certain combination of other tags are also present (foot=no),
a data user would need to ignore this, making this more confusing than
necessary (bicycle=no).

By the way, shouldn't simply adding motor_vehicle=only be sufficient? That
mostly covers the legal definition around here.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:26 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 22. Jul 2020, at 22:51, bkil  wrote:
>
> bicycle=no is usually used on busy motorways where dismounting isn't
> feasible:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C14.svg
>
> On such a road, a bicycle router should only offer to dismount if the road
> has sidewalk=!none.
>
>
>
> on motorways there is also foot=no, this is why dismounting isn’t an
> option there. Generally we assume that dismounting makes the cyclist a
> pedestrian (vast majority of bicycle=no are just the same as dismount), and
> the rest is a different kind of question (what kind of objects  are you not
> allowed to bring, including bicycles, firearms, alcohol, religious symbols,
> political symbols, animals, sneakers, scissors, face masks, fireworks, etc.
> etc.)
>
>
> Cheers Martin
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - sport:four_square

When creating https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/828950465, I wasn't sure 
how to tag it... it's a somewhat generic paved lot for recreation, but 
it *does* have markings for four square, which is not unusual for such 
areas.


We do not have an "official" tag for that, although even so there are 
almost 400 extant uses (some sport=four_square, many fewer 
sport=foursquare).


Shall we make this an official value?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sport%3Dfour_square

--
Matthew

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

sent from a phone

> On 22. Jul 2020, at 22:51, bkil  wrote:
> 
> bicycle=no is usually used on busy motorways where dismounting isn't feasible:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C14.svg
> 
> On such a road, a bicycle router should only offer to dismount if the road 
> has sidewalk=!none.

on motorways there is also foot=no, this is why dismounting isn’t an option 
there. Generally we assume that dismounting makes the cyclist a pedestrian 
(vast majority of bicycle=no are just the same as dismount), and the rest is a 
different kind of question (what kind of objects  are you not allowed to bring, 
including bicycles, firearms, alcohol, religious symbols, political symbols, 
animals, sneakers, scissors, face masks, fireworks, etc. etc.)

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging motorcycle parking

sent from a phone

> On 22. Jul 2020, at 22:42, Matthew Woehlke  wrote:
> 
> why do we have capacity:disabled, or indeed capacity:*, rather than modeling 
> those spaces as separate lots?

because different mappers have different preferences. For disabled parking 
spaces I would also prefer having them mapped with their position.
There’s amenity =parking_space for these

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Although I think we've given enough evidence and _some_ of your quotes make
sense, let me add another consideration.

This is where bicycle=dismount could be used (although it is the default on
highway=footway):
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Opastemerkki.jpg

bicycle=no is usually used on busy motorways where dismounting isn't
feasible:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C14.svg

On such a road, a bicycle router should only offer to dismount if the road
has sidewalk=!none.

However, transporting a (folding) bicycle here is still allowed in the
trunk or on racks without any trickery.

Am I understanding correctly that this is what the wilderness rules would
like to achieve?
vehicle=no + scooter=prohibited + bicycle=prohibited + moped=prohibited +
unicycle=prohibited + hand_cart=prohibited + wheeled_luggage=prohibited

I think if we concentrated on this case, it would be better to invent a
specific access value to convey that they don't want to see you be in
possession of anything that could leave a track in normal use
(access=legged). When you go out with something like this in the wild, they
could rightly infer that you would want to ride it when the park rangers
are not looking. Not sure about the extent of such restriction, but it
might also make sense to put it onto the natural area instead of each and
every individual path of it.

Am I right in that they still allow riding on the back of animals (like an
elephant, buffalo, yak, camel, donkey or horse) or machinery that mimic
limbic locomotion (like AlphaDog )?

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:58 PM Allroads  wrote:

> It is annoying for me too.
>
> A router discussion.
> https://github.com/abrensch/brouter/issues/79
> Talk about a situation the use of use_sidepath and dismount. And the
> bicycle=no, which is not a hard no.
> Some qoutes.
> “Hm, but in very most cases, bicycle=no is used effectively in sense of
> bicycle=dismount, not in in sense *No bicycles here*.”
> “In my experience, bicycle=dismount is used very rarely, mostly if there
> is an explicit request to do it, in agreement with OSM intention for short
> way segments only, like e.g. narrow bridges, passes, collision danger etc.”
> “
>
> The only relevant interpretation of bicycle=no is the OSM tagging
> intention, not what I or you think about it. And that is clear - red/white
> traffic sign with a black bicycle, or legal equivalent.
>
> The routing itself is for bikers, not bicycles. Pushing bicycle is a legal
> and frequent mode of bicycle transportation. Bikers may then use such
> profiles that either penalize it either forbide it ( CF=1 for total
> ignoring, or  for navigation hint consideration )”
>
>
>
> Nothing changed.
>
> What they saying is, it is common accepted, OSM intention.
> bicycle=dismount is not often used, but very often should it be used, so
> routers take the common accepted. =no also = dismount. A hell of a job to
> set all these =dismount, tagging, what is really prohibited is better, OSM
> method. (new value?).
>
> Talking to route developers* is now  a past station!* Conclusion: no is
> not a hard no. Unfortunately, we must go further. A new value! This not
> only a bicycle problem.
>
> .
> No, new access key
> dismounted_bicycle all others must also have a equivalent, unworkable,
> more typing. Better one value, that fits all, fits the access systematic
> hierarchy.
> You must always look at this hierarchy to make routing decisions.
> The choose for a key make everything more complicated.
> Also for visualization.
>
>
> *From:* Tod Fitch
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:53 PM
> *To:* Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> *Subject:* Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle
> not allowed here"?
>
> This thread has been quite amazing to me. My impression is that it starts
> with some routers (a.k.a data consumers, a.k.a. “renderers”) treating a
> “no” as a “maybe” and now people are looking for a new term to indicate
> that “we really, really, mean NO!”. This is worse than tagging for the
> render, it is obsoleting a straight forward and explicit tag value for a
> broken renderer.
>
> Discussion devolves into “if I disassemble by bicycle and put into wheeled
> luggage is it okay now?”.
>
> Why not treat “no” as no? If I can push the bicycle through then we
> already have “dismount”.
>
> Is there some other way of getting a bicycle through? If so, then come up
> with a new value for that (“disassembled”?).
>
> In the meantime, file bug reports against any router that routes a bicycle
> over a “no”.
>
> At least where I am, “no really means no” and if you are caught with a
> bicycle at all then you are subject to a fine. Thousands of kilometers of
> paths are so marked and it really wouldn’t be nice to redefine an existing
> value.
>
> Cheers!
> Tod
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging motorcycle parking


On 22/07/2020 16.32, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Matthew Woehlke:

Right now the only option seems to be to model the lot as two separate
entities, one which excludes the motorcycle spaces, and one which is
*only* the motorcycle spaces which could be amenity=motorcycle_parking.
Is this really the best way?


I am usually doing it like this (separate entities), it also seems most
useful for drivers / riders, because each group can see where are their
parking lots.


So... I'm not sure I agree with that. Maybe it's different in !US, but 
in the US, motorcycles can (generally) park in any car parking space. If 
we're going to use that argument, why do we have capacity:disabled, or 
indeed capacity:*, rather than modeling those spaces as separate lots?


--
Matthew

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging motorcycle parking

Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 21:11 Uhr schrieb Matthew Woehlke <
mwoehlke.fl...@gmail.com>:

> I've seen some parking lots that have spaces specifically for
> motorcycles (i.e. that are not large enough for cars), although the lot
> as a whole is mixed-use. Is there no "direct" way to tag this (something
> like capacity:motorcycle)?
>
> Right now the only option seems to be to model the lot as two separate
> entities, one which excludes the motorcycle spaces, and one which is
> *only* the motorcycle spaces which could be amenity=motorcycle_parking.
> Is this really the best way?



I am usually doing it like this (separate entities), it also seems most
useful for drivers / riders, because each group can see where are their
parking lots.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Tod Fitch



> On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Jmapb  wrote:
> 
> If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the idea 
> of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then I'd suggest 
> a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a regulation key 
> (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key. Total bicycle prohibition 
> would be encoded with both bicycle=no and dismounted_bicycle=no, and other 
> dismounted_bicycle=* values can be developed for whatever the regulations are 
> in particular situations.
> 
Why? The suggestion that all the places that properly tagged bicycles=no now 
need to be revisited and have a new dismounted_bicycles=no tag added implies 
that the people who took “no” to mean something other than “no” prevail and the 
rest of us have to go back and re-tag things.

Since many miles/kilometers of ways will need to be retagged either way, why 
not go with the straight forward “no means no” and “dismount means dismount”? 
Makes a lot more sense to me that “no only really means no if there is an 
additional dismounted_bicycle=no” tag too.

Cheers!

—Tod





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Re: [Tagging] Tagging motorcycle parking

It would be advantageous to map them separately because one riding a
motorcycle could make better use of OSM to navigate to and from the exact
position of the applicable parking space.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 9:11 PM Matthew Woehlke 
wrote:

> I've seen some parking lots that have spaces specifically for
> motorcycles (i.e. that are not large enough for cars), although the lot
> as a whole is mixed-use. Is there no "direct" way to tag this (something
> like capacity:motorcycle)?
>
> Right now the only option seems to be to model the lot as two separate
> entities, one which excludes the motorcycle spaces, and one which is
> *only* the motorcycle spaces which could be amenity=motorcycle_parking.
> Is this really the best way?
>
> --
> Matthew
>
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Re: [Tagging] Waterway equivalent of noexit=yes?

2020-07-22 Thread Tod Fitch

It certainly would not be my pick of terms, but it seems manhole=drain has an 
appropriate definition in the wiki [1] and considerable use [2] for a place 
that water disappears into a man made structure. Most of them around here are 
not circular and many appear to be too small for a person to get into when the 
grate is removed. But OSM has odd tagging for other things so why not this too?

I will start tagging that where the surface drainage ditches disappear into the 
ground. I wonder if QA tools like Osmose will stop nagging me about those 
waterways.

We are still left with the situation where an ephemeral waterway fans out over 
the desert and disappears. We need some sort of tagging to indicate this is not 
a mistake and I’ve not seen a tag or value come up in this discussion that has 
any existing use or consensus in the list.

These are definitely not sink holes and shouldn’t be tagged as such.

Digression: The wiki page for natural=sinkhole [3] says that it is a tagging 
error to use natural=sink_hole. When I look at taginfo I see nearly 2000 
occurances of natural=sink_hole and none for natural=sinkhole [4]. I guess the 
write of the wiki page disagreed with the spelling of the most used spelling of 
the tag value.

Anyway, back to waterways dissipating in the desert. Where the flowing water 
disappears varies considerably from storm to storm so maybe it shouldn’t even 
be a tag on the last node of the way. Maybe the last section of the way could 
have a tag instead?

Would a tag on the way be better or worse than a tag on the last node on the 
way?

Maybe a discussion on this will turn up a possible way to map the situation.

Thank you for the responses so far!

—Tod

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:manhole%3Ddrain
[2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=manhole%3Ddrain
[3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dsinkhole
[3] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=natural%3Dsink

> On Jul 20, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Manhole=drain has more than 2000 uses, most of them seem to be water drainage 
> grids with no access for humans.
> But if you want to retag them with something different you would need to do 
> this manually.
> I would not touch it, even if it is an unfortunate tagging.
> 
> On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 21:33, Alan Mackie  > wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 11:28, Paul Allen  > wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 10:59, Volker Schmidt  > wrote:
> manhole=drain is widely used in OSM for water drainage grids, that are not 
> suitable for people to entr - se the photo on the wikipage 
> 
> 
> People have used manhole=drain for that purpose and the wikipage
> for manhole=drain documents that use.  However, that photo appears
> to be of a UK storm drain which is not a manhole by my definition
> (too small for entry by a person) or by the wiki's definition for
> Key:manhole which states "Hole with a cover that allows access to
> an underground service location, just large enough for a human to climb
> through."
> 
> In my opinion we should deprecate manhole=drain except where
> it really is large enough for access by a person.  We need a
> better tag.  Well, two tags.  One for storm drains and one
> for sinks that are too small to merit natural=sinkhole with
> any of the current sinkhole=* types.  Oh, and a tag for
> spreads, too.
> 
> --
> Paul
> 
> I think we also need one for "entrances" to pipes/tunnels of unknown extent 
> where the entrance is by horizontal movement of the water rather than by 
> falling into a hole. The presence/absence of gratings or mesh may be useful 
> for these too.
> 
> 
> 
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[Tagging] Tagging motorcycle parking

I've seen some parking lots that have spaces specifically for 
motorcycles (i.e. that are not large enough for cars), although the lot 
as a whole is mixed-use. Is there no "direct" way to tag this (something 
like capacity:motorcycle)?


Right now the only option seems to be to model the lot as two separate 
entities, one which excludes the motorcycle spaces, and one which is 
*only* the motorcycle spaces which could be amenity=motorcycle_parking. 
Is this really the best way?


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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Mike Thompson

bicycle_possession=no

similar pattern could be used for other prohibited items (vs. mode of
transportation), e.g.
alcohol_posession=no
firearm_possession=no

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:34 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 11:29:17 +0200
> Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> > And we would have to define what „bicycle“ means.
> >
> > Are these bicycles?
> > 1.
> >
> https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/F-8AAOSwstJZXeV2/$_12.JPG
> >
> > 2.
> > http://img0.biker-boarder.de/detail_oxp1/g13_edge_raw.jpg
> >
> > 3.
> > http://www.unicyclist.com/filedata/fetch?id=2476281
> >
> > 4.
> >
> https://photos.netjuggler.net/monocycle-kris-holm-24p/grande/Monocycle-Kris-Holm-24-pouces-isis1.jpg
>
> In a US Wilderness Area, 3 and 4 are definitely prohibited, as is bkil's
> folding bicycle.  2 is probably okay, as long as neither you nor any
> other member of your party are in possession of any of the other parts.
>  1 is clearly okay.
>
> --
> Mark
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Allroads

It is annoying for me too.

A router discussion.
https://github.com/abrensch/brouter/issues/79
Talk about a situation the use of use_sidepath and dismount. And the 
bicycle=no, which is not a hard no.
Some qoutes.
“Hm, but in very most cases, bicycle=no is used effectively in sense of 
bicycle=dismount, not in in sense No bicycles here.”
“In my experience, bicycle=dismount is used very rarely, mostly if there is an 
explicit request to do it, in agreement with OSM intention for short way 
segments only, like e.g. narrow bridges, passes, collision danger etc.”
“
The only relevant interpretation of bicycle=no is the OSM tagging intention, 
not what I or you think about it. And that is clear - red/white traffic sign 
with a black bicycle, or legal equivalent.

The routing itself is for bikers, not bicycles. Pushing bicycle is a legal and 
frequent mode of bicycle transportation. Bikers may then use such profiles that 
either penalize it either forbide it ( CF=1 for total ignoring, or  for 
navigation hint consideration )”



Nothing changed.

What they saying is, it is common accepted, OSM intention. bicycle=dismount is 
not often used, but very often should it be used, so routers take the common 
accepted. =no also = dismount. A hell of a job to set all these =dismount, 
tagging, what is really prohibited is better, OSM method. (new value?). 

Talking to route developers is now  a past station! Conclusion: no is not a 
hard no. Unfortunately, we must go further. A new value! This not only a 
bicycle problem.

.

No, new access key
dismounted_bicycle all others must also have a equivalent, unworkable, more 
typing. Better one value, that fits all, fits the access systematic hierarchy.
You must always look at this hierarchy to make routing decisions.
The choose for a key make everything more complicated.
Also for visualization. 


From: Tod Fitch 
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 4:53 PM
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not 
allowed here"?

This thread has been quite amazing to me. My impression is that it starts with 
some routers (a.k.a data consumers, a.k.a. “renderers”) treating a “no” as a 
“maybe” and now people are looking for a new term to indicate that “we really, 
really, mean NO!”. This is worse than tagging for the render, it is obsoleting 
a straight forward and explicit tag value for a broken renderer. 

Discussion devolves into “if I disassemble by bicycle and put into wheeled 
luggage is it okay now?”.

Why not treat “no” as no? If I can push the bicycle through then we already 
have “dismount”.

Is there some other way of getting a bicycle through? If so, then come up with 
a new value for that (“disassembled”?).

In the meantime, file bug reports against any router that routes a bicycle over 
a “no”.

At least where I am, “no really means no” and if you are caught with a bicycle 
at all then you are subject to a fine. Thousands of kilometers of paths are so 
marked and it really wouldn’t be nice to redefine an existing value.

Cheers!
Tod

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Tod Fitch

This thread has been quite amazing to me. My impression is that it starts with 
some routers (a.k.a data consumers, a.k.a. “renderers”) treating a “no” as a 
“maybe” and now people are looking for a new term to indicate that “we really, 
really, mean NO!”. This is worse than tagging for the render, it is obsoleting 
a straight forward and explicit tag value for a broken renderer.

Discussion devolves into “if I disassemble by bicycle and put into wheeled 
luggage is it okay now?”.

Why not treat “no” as no? If I can push the bicycle through then we already 
have “dismount”.

Is there some other way of getting a bicycle through? If so, then come up with 
a new value for that (“disassembled”?).

In the meantime, file bug reports against any router that routes a bicycle over 
a “no”.

At least where I am, “no really means no” and if you are caught with a bicycle 
at all then you are subject to a fine. Thousands of kilometers of paths are so 
marked and it really wouldn’t be nice to redefine an existing value.

Cheers!
Tod

> On Jul 22, 2020, at 7:34 AM, Allroads  wrote:
> 
> 
> https://images.mapillary.com/yQWkL-XX5eRN5A2j0JkKIA/thumb-2048.jpg 
> 
> Geen toegang:
> - met (brom)fietsen.
> No access:
> - with bicycles.
> This is written, grammatically and  orthographly, in a way, that the 
> "vehicle" is meant.
> explicit the bicycle no access.
> 
> This is privat land, Staatsbosbeheer, owned or in control, all over the 
> Netherlands, you see these type of signs, arranged in the same way, the 
> layout.
> Mostly all of these roads/tracks path are permissive
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterloopbos._Natuurgebied_van_Natuurmonumenten._Informatiebord.jpg
>  <>
> - Fietsers op verharde fietspaden en wegen
> -Bicyclist on paved cycleway and roads.
> Here is written what is allowed.
> But more important:
> Overigens verboden toegang Artikel 461 W.v.S.
> Others prohibited access, article 461 Code criminal law.
> The word  “Overigens” means:  all the other which is not mentioned above on 
> the sign
> Not pushing a bicycle on a unpaved cyclway, path, tracks. So others then 
> “wegen” roads.
> 
> A active Openmapstreet member got  a ticket for pushing his bike on a not 
> allowed “wegen” by a certified ranger (BOA) Community service officer.
> 
> This sign with “Overigens”  of  the private organisation Natuurmonumenten, 
> you find them all over the Netherlands, with the same layout.
> 
> 
> 
> ‘'
> bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign forbidding 
> this",
> 
> Indeed.
> 
> not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".
> 
> That sounds like bicycle=prohibited. :)
> 
> ‘'
> 
> Text on sign: “Overigens” and “- met fietsen”  "bicycle vehicle itself is 
> prohibited”
> 
> I need a value .*=explicit_no for “the vehicle” or some other value that 
> means the same. “the bicycle is not allowed”
> 
> This is for all kind of transportation and vehicles. Pushing carry/not 
> allowed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It seems highly strange that you wouldn't even be allowed to carry/push your 
> bike, are you sure that was what it meant?
> Do you have a picture of the sign?
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Mark Wagner

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 11:29:17 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> And we would have to define what „bicycle“ means.
> 
> Are these bicycles?
> 1. 
> https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/F-8AAOSwstJZXeV2/$_12.JPG
> 
> 2.
> http://img0.biker-boarder.de/detail_oxp1/g13_edge_raw.jpg
> 
> 3.
> http://www.unicyclist.com/filedata/fetch?id=2476281
> 
> 4.
> https://photos.netjuggler.net/monocycle-kris-holm-24p/grande/Monocycle-Kris-Holm-24-pouces-isis1.jpg

In a US Wilderness Area, 3 and 4 are definitely prohibited, as is bkil's
folding bicycle.  2 is probably okay, as long as neither you nor any
other member of your party are in possession of any of the other parts.
 1 is clearly okay.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] Hiking "guideposts" painted on rocks, trees etc.

sent from a phone

> On 22. Jul 2020, at 17:10, pangoSE  wrote:
> 
> I suggest you add the guidepost to a node on the path instead.

I am mapping guideposts rather rarely, when I do it, I place them on their 
actual position, sometimes on building outlines, or on retaining walls, or just 
flying in space. I would not want them on the highway. Sometimes at 
near-crossroads there is a single post for 4 ways, but in the details it is 2 
T-crossings a few meters apart. With your proposal you would have to use 2 
OpenStreetMap guideposts where there is only one in reality.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Waterway equivalent of noexit=yes?

Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 17:27 Uhr schrieb Tod Fitch :

> It certainly would not be my pick of terms, but it seems manhole=drain has
> an appropriate definition in the wiki [1] and considerable use [2] for a
> place that water disappears into a man made structure. Most of them around
> here are not circular and many appear to be too small for a person to get
> into when the grate is removed. But OSM has odd tagging for other things so
> why not this too?
>


I would rather try to limit the "odd cases", and maybe even get rid of them
in the long term. There is no benefit from using inappropriate terms. If
manhole=* is generally considered to be about manholes, why would we want
to encourage more usage for non-manhole objects?

IMHO we should fix the definition in the wiki by making it more precise, as
there aren't so many yet.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Waterway equivalent of noexit=yes?

2020-07-22 Thread Paul Allen

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 16:27, Tod Fitch  wrote:

> We are still left with the situation where an ephemeral waterway fans out
> over the desert and disappears. We need some sort of tagging to indicate
> this is not a mistake and I’ve not seen a tag or value come up in this
> discussion that has any existing use or consensus in the list.
>

I thought I already mentioned that Ordnance Survey calls them spreads.
If not, I've just mentioned it.

>
> Anyway, back to waterways dissipating in the desert. Where the flowing
> water disappears varies considerably from storm to storm so maybe it
> shouldn’t even be a tag on the last node of the way. Maybe the last section
> of the way could have a tag instead?
>
> Would a tag on the way be better or worse than a tag on the last node on
> the way?
>

Tagging the node is wrong if there are clear fan-outs.  OTOH, you could
tag the terminal node on each fan-out in that case.  Tagging part of the
way implies that you KNOW that particular length of the way is all where
water dissipates into the ground.

I'd go with a node.  Render it as a large asterisk.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Richard Fairhurst

Tod Fitch wrote:
> This thread has been quite amazing to me. My impression is that it
> starts with some routers (a.k.a data consumers, a.k.a. “renderers”)
> treating a “no” as a “maybe” and now people are looking for a new
> term to indicate that “we really, really, mean NO!”. This is worse
> than tagging for the render, it is obsoleting a straight forward
> and explicit tag value for a broken renderer.

No, you have got that the wrong way round, and it would be kind for you to be a 
bit surer of your facts before throwing around accusations of brokenness.

People have been using bicycle=no to tag footways where cycling is banned, but 
where you may push a bike, since the very earliest days of OSM. Here's an 
instance from 2006: https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/2606296/history . I'm 
pretty sure there weren't _any_ OSM routers in existence then.

The reason that routers will sometimes route via such a path, with an 
instruction to dismount, is that this tagging practice has always been 
widespread. It doesn't "start with some routers". It started with the tagging.

Fairly obviously, if the users of a particular router complain to the router's 
authors that they're being prevented from plotting a viable route, then the 
authors are pretty obviously going to change the router so they stop getting 
complaints.

So either fix the existing instances in OSM of bicycle=no being used to mean 
bicycle=dismount, or introduce a new tag.

Richard
cycle.travel
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

>
> My guess is that the adoption of a dismounted_bicycle=* tag or similar
> would require significantly *less* work than re-examining all current
> bicycle=no ways.
>
>
Yes, I think that would be workable.


> Nonetheless, I completely agree with you, =no should mean =no! But I
> fear we're in the minority, and that the sloppy tagging of the past has
> a formidable inertia.
>
> J
>
>
I disagree, see my other answer relating to agriculture.

Also, it contradicts the principle of least surprise that most countries do
not have such restrictions, hence regardless of how you would like to
redefine `bicycle=no`, half of the world would still keep tagging it
incorrectly.
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

>
> Yes, my guess is that early mappers felt no need for bicycle=dismount
> because it was simply presumed that foot=yes + bicycle=no meant the same
> thing -- the assumption of a very bicycle-friendly culture!
>
> The obvious problem with bicycle=closed is that it's rarely used so
> routing software will probably not be looking for it, and so will
> happily send bicycles along bicycle=closed ways. In fact, I wanted to
> test some routers but I can't find a single bicycle=closed way currently
> tagged on the whole map.
>
> The other subtler problem is that it might be possible to
> confuse"bicycle=closed" with"bicycle=folded" especially for non-native
> English speakers.
>
>
That was a value deprecated by 2008 (or a typo on the wiki). See my other
answer from 2008 that already uses `bicycle=no`.
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Jmapb



On 7/22/2020 11:34 AM, Tod Fitch wrote:



On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Jmapb mailto:jm...@gmx.com>> wrote:

If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the
idea of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then
I'd suggest a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a
regulation key (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key.
Total bicycle prohibition would be encoded with both bicycle=no and
dismounted_bicycle=no, and other dismounted_bicycle=* values can be
developed for whatever the regulations are in particular situations.


Why? The suggestion that all the places that properly tagged bicycles=no
now need to be revisited and have a new dismounted_bicycles=no tag added
implies that the people who took “no” to mean something other than “no”
prevail and the rest of us have to go back and re-tag things.

Since many miles/kilometers of ways will need to be retagged either way,
why not go with the straight forward “no means no” and “dismount means
dismount”? Makes a lot more sense to me that “no only really means no if
there is an additional dismounted_bicycle=no” tag too.


My guess is that the adoption of a dismounted_bicycle=* tag or similar
would require significantly *less* work than re-examining all current
bicycle=no ways.

Nonetheless, I completely agree with you, =no should mean =no! But I
fear we're in the minority, and that the sloppy tagging of the past has
a formidable inertia.

J

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Florimond Berthoux

’bicycle’ tag is for the transport mode, cycling.
I only use dismount if there is a board saying so.
Why ? Because I tag the board not the written law in a book.

About the value, I propose :
bicycle=banned

Le mer. 22 juil. 2020 à 17:36, Tod Fitch  a écrit :

>
>
> On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Jmapb  wrote:
>
> If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the
> idea of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then I'd
> suggest a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a
> regulation key (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key. Total
> bicycle prohibition would be encoded with both bicycle=no and
> dismounted_bicycle=no, and other dismounted_bicycle=* values can be
> developed for whatever the regulations are in particular situations.
>
> Why? The suggestion that all the places that properly tagged bicycles=no
> now need to be revisited and have a new dismounted_bicycles=no tag added
> implies that the people who took “no” to mean something other than “no”
> prevail and the rest of us have to go back and re-tag things.
>
> Since many miles/kilometers of ways will need to be retagged either way,
> why not go with the straight forward “no means no” and “dismount means
> dismount”? Makes a lot more sense to me that “no only really means no if
> there is an additional dismounted_bicycle=no” tag too.
>
> Cheers!
>
> —Tod
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Waterway equivalent of noexit=yes?


On 22/07/2020 11.25, Tod Fitch wrote:

Digression: The wiki page for natural=sinkhole [3] says that it is a
tagging error to use natural=sink_hole. When I look at taginfo I see
nearly 2000 occurances of natural=sink_hole and none for
natural=sinkhole [4]. I guess the write of the wiki page disagreed
with the spelling of the most used spelling of the tag value.


I am fairly confident that "sinkhole" is the correct American spelling, 
and "sink hole" is discouraged; my guess is that's what the author was 
thinking.


That said, OSM apparently uses en_GB spelling, and "sink hole" *does* 
seem to have use in the UK (but it seems "sinkhole" does also).


FWIW, Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinkhole) only lists 
"sink-hole" as an alternative, although Wiktionary does have "sink hole".


Interestingly, the etymology is given as 'from sinkehole, sinkeholl', 
suggesting that "sink hole" is a neologism and "sinkhole" is more 
historically accurate.


--
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Jmapb


On 7/22/2020 11:27 AM, bkil wrote:

According to OSM wiki history, `bicycle=dismount` is a pretty recent
tag, perhaps less than 7 years old. I think `bicycle=no` was invented
much earlier. Hence it is you who wants to redefine a well established tag.

According to the first version of access=* in 2006:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:access=3772
 >  Closed to or unsuitable for bicycle traffic



Yes, my guess is that early mappers felt no need for bicycle=dismount
because it was simply presumed that foot=yes + bicycle=no meant the same
thing -- the assumption of a very bicycle-friendly culture!

The obvious problem with bicycle=closed is that it's rarely used so
routing software will probably not be looking for it, and so will
happily send bicycles along bicycle=closed ways. In fact, I wanted to
test some routers but I can't find a single bicycle=closed way currently
tagged on the whole map.

The other subtler problem is that it might be possible to
confuse"bicycle=closed" with"bicycle=folded" especially for non-native
English speakers.

J

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Peter Elderson

bicycle=leave
Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op wo 22 jul. 2020 om 17:36 schreef Tod Fitch :

>
>
> On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:09 AM, Jmapb  wrote:
>
> If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the
> idea of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then I'd
> suggest a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a
> regulation key (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key. Total
> bicycle prohibition would be encoded with both bicycle=no and
> dismounted_bicycle=no, and other dismounted_bicycle=* values can be
> developed for whatever the regulations are in particular situations.
>
> Why? The suggestion that all the places that properly tagged bicycles=no
> now need to be revisited and have a new dismounted_bicycles=no tag added
> implies that the people who took “no” to mean something other than “no”
> prevail and the rest of us have to go back and re-tag things.
>
> Since many miles/kilometers of ways will need to be retagged either way,
> why not go with the straight forward “no means no” and “dismount means
> dismount”? Makes a lot more sense to me that “no only really means no if
> there is an additional dismounted_bicycle=no” tag too.
>
> Cheers!
>
> —Tod
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Waterway equivalent of noexit=yes?

2020-07-22 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

Re: natural=sinkhole - this tag has been used 9908 times:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=natural=sinkhole

It is widely distributed:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/natural=sinkhole#map

In contrast, natural=sink_hole appears to have only been used in 2 areas in
England, mostly added 1 year ago by a certain mapper:
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/natural=sink_hole#map - I assume
this was a mistake.

– Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:27 AM Tod Fitch  wrote:

> It certainly would not be my pick of terms, but it seems manhole=drain has
> an appropriate definition in the wiki [1] and considerable use [2] for a
> place that water disappears into a man made structure. Most of them around
> here are not circular and many appear to be too small for a person to get
> into when the grate is removed. But OSM has odd tagging for other things so
> why not this too?
>
> I will start tagging that where the surface drainage ditches disappear
> into the ground. I wonder if QA tools like Osmose will stop nagging me
> about those waterways.
>
> We are still left with the situation where an ephemeral waterway fans out
> over the desert and disappears. We need some sort of tagging to indicate
> this is not a mistake and I’ve not seen a tag or value come up in this
> discussion that has any existing use or consensus in the list.
>
> These are definitely not sink holes and shouldn’t be tagged as such.
>
> Digression: The wiki page for natural=sinkhole [3] says that it is a
> tagging error to use natural=sink_hole. When I look at taginfo I see nearly
> 2000 occurances of natural=sink_hole and none for natural=sinkhole [4]. I
> guess the write of the wiki page disagreed with the spelling of the most
> used spelling of the tag value.
>
> Anyway, back to waterways dissipating in the desert. Where the flowing
> water disappears varies considerably from storm to storm so maybe it
> shouldn’t even be a tag on the last node of the way. Maybe the last section
> of the way could have a tag instead?
>
> Would a tag on the way be better or worse than a tag on the last node on
> the way?
>
> Maybe a discussion on this will turn up a possible way to map the
> situation.
>
> Thank you for the responses so far!
>
> —Tod
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:manhole%3Ddrain
> [2] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=manhole%3Ddrain
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dsinkhole
> [3] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=natural%3Dsink
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2020, at 3:19 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> Manhole=drain has more than 2000 uses, most of them seem to be water
> drainage grids with no access for humans.
> But if you want to retag them with something different you would need to
> do this manually.
> I would not touch it, even if it is an unfortunate tagging.
>
> On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 21:33, Alan Mackie  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 11:28, Paul Allen  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 20 Jul 2020 at 10:59, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>>
 manhole=drain is widely used in OSM for water drainage grids, that are
 not suitable for people to entr - se the photo on the wikipage
 

>>>
>>> People have used manhole=drain for that purpose and the wikipage
>>> for manhole=drain documents that use.  However, that photo appears
>>> to be of a UK storm drain which is not a manhole by my definition
>>> (too small for entry by a person) or by the wiki's definition for
>>> Key:manhole which states "Hole with a cover that allows access to
>>> an underground service location, just large enough for a human to climb
>>> through."
>>>
>>> In my opinion we should deprecate manhole=drain except where
>>> it really is large enough for access by a person.  We need a
>>> better tag.  Well, two tags.  One for storm drains and one
>>> for sinks that are too small to merit natural=sinkhole with
>>> any of the current sinkhole=* types.  Oh, and a tag for
>>> spreads, too.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Paul
>>>
>>
>> I think we also need one for "entrances" to pipes/tunnels of unknown
>> extent where the entrance is by horizontal movement of the water rather
>> than by falling into a hole. The presence/absence of gratings or mesh may
>> be useful for these too.
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

When it was split in 2008, it had the following proposed values:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:bicycle=119888


   - bicycle=yes 
   - bicycle=no 
   - bicycle=designated
   
   - bicycle=private
   
   - bicycle=permissive
   
   - bicycle=destination
   

   - bicycle=unknown
   



Documentation for dismount appeared around 2010 on this page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Bicycle=517641

> Where cycling is not allowed on short sections of signposted cycleroutes
(typically in the UK on narrow bridges and underpasses which are shared
with pedestrians), there are usually signs saying "Cyclists dismount".
These have been tagged as follows (300+ uses as of 2010-08-15)

It occured on this page in 2014:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:access=1108382

Note that similarly, you may see a restriction for `agricultural=no` on
various roads around here, but you may still transport them over trailers
("possess") on the very same routes. Restrictions in this case were needed
because such vehicles are usually much slower than traffic and/or are much
more destructive to the road surface.
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Re: [Tagging] Hiking "guideposts" painted on rocks, trees etc.

Guidebooks in a hiking/cycling route should be fine, provided they carry
the role=guidepost tag.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 17:20 Andy Townsend,  wrote:

> On 22/07/2020 16:08, pangoSE wrote:
> >
> > I suggest you add the guidepost to a node on the path instead.
> >
> Please don't do this.  If there's a gate on one side of the road you
> wouldn't add that gate to the road itself, would you?
>
>
> > I really think it would be nice to be able to say query and list all
> > hotels, wilderness huts and shelters within 200 m of the Kungsleden
> > trail (Swedens most famous trail) but I don't think adding them to
> > relations is the way forward. Maybe this can already be done with
> > overpass.
>
> What Overpass certainly can't do is tell you "which guideposts are for
> which trail" if that information isn't recorded anywhere.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

It's not the routers' fault. They correctly reflect the mappers'
intentions. In almost all cases when we map bicycle=no it means, according
to the law, you can pass if you walk your bicycle, because you are
considered a pedestrian. We simply missed to realise that we overlooked the
rare cases where you are not allowed to walk your bicycle.
>From time to time, we discuss this issue, but have so far not come up with
a solution.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020, 16:54 Tod Fitch,  wrote:

> This thread has been quite amazing to me. My impression is that it starts
> with some routers (a.k.a data consumers, a.k.a. “renderers”) treating a
> “no” as a “maybe” and now people are looking for a new term to indicate
> that “we really, really, mean NO!”. This is worse than tagging for the
> render, it is obsoleting a straight forward and explicit tag value for a
> broken renderer.
>
> Discussion devolves into “if I disassemble by bicycle and put into wheeled
> luggage is it okay now?”.
>
> Why not treat “no” as no? If I can push the bicycle through then we
> already have “dismount”.
>
> Is there some other way of getting a bicycle through? If so, then come up
> with a new value for that (“disassembled”?).
>
> In the meantime, file bug reports against any router that routes a bicycle
> over a “no”.
>
> At least where I am, “no really means no” and if you are caught with a
> bicycle at all then you are subject to a fine. Thousands of kilometers of
> paths are so marked and it really wouldn’t be nice to redefine an existing
> value.
>
> Cheers!
> Tod
>
> On Jul 22, 2020, at 7:34 AM, Allroads  wrote:
>
>
> https://images.mapillary.com/yQWkL-XX5eRN5A2j0JkKIA/thumb-2048.jpg
> Geen toegang:
> - met (brom)fietsen.
> No access:
> - with bicycles.
> This is written, grammatically and  orthographly, in a way, that the
> "vehicle" is meant.
> explicit the bicycle no access.
>
> This is privat land, Staatsbosbeheer, owned or in control, all over the
> Netherlands, you see these type of signs, arranged in the same way, the
> layout.
> Mostly all of these roads/tracks path are permissive
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterloopbos._Natuurgebied_van_Natuurmonumenten._Informatiebord.jpg
> - Fietsers op verharde fietspaden en wegen
> -Bicyclist on paved cycleway and roads.
> Here is written what is allowed.
> But more important:
> Overigens verboden toegang Artikel 461 W.v.S.
> Others prohibited access, article 461 Code criminal law.
> The word  “Overigens” means:  all the other which is not mentioned above
> on the sign
> Not pushing a bicycle on a unpaved cyclway, path, tracks. So others then
> “wegen” roads.
>
> A active Openmapstreet member got  a ticket for pushing his bike on a not
> allowed “wegen” by a certified ranger (BOA) Community service officer.
>
> This sign with “Overigens”  of  the private organisation Natuurmonumenten,
> you find them all over the Netherlands, with the same layout.
>
>
>
> ‘'
>
>> bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign
>> forbidding this",
>>
>
> Indeed.
>
>
>> not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".
>>
>
> That sounds like bicycle=prohibited. :)
>
> ‘'
>
> Text on sign: “Overigens” and “- met fietsen”  "bicycle vehicle itself is
> prohibited”
>
> I need a value .*=explicit_no for “the vehicle” or some other value that
> means the same. “the bicycle is not allowed”
>
> This is for all kind of transportation and vehicles. Pushing carry/not
> allowed.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> It seems highly strange that you wouldn't even be allowed to carry/push
> your bike, are you sure that was what it meant?
> Do you have a picture of the sign?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

> I wonder if carrying a bicycle (possibly folded) would also be prohibited
> on these unpaved ways?
>
> As was mentioned in the last thread, the rules for most federal wilderness
> areas in the USA strictly prohibit possession of any bicycle on the
> property, whether the wheels ever touch the ground or not. Rangers will
> fine the violators.
>

We don't have such areas around here but I have heard about them. The
concept is that tracked vehicles disturb and compact the ground and kill
many creatures that you are not aware of compared to bipedal locomotion. It
is thus imperative that if you dismount and push the bike, it still leaves
a track and still does a bit of destruction along the way. Wooden ways
similar to that depicted may also be more dangerous (and you could also
easily get a flat tire along the way and then potentially want to sue them).

If you were to carry it on your back (for whatever twisted reason), it
would not cause any harm, but then what is the point of carrying a bike
around for dozens of kilometers in the wilderness?

I think they usually don't have many provisions for foldable bicycles in
the USA because it doesn't have as much culture as in Europe or in the UK.

> To me, the simplest and most logical tagging approach would be:
>  - bicycle=no means no bicycles, ridden or otherwise
>  - bicycle=dismount means pushing is allowed
>  - other values can be used for even more restrictive situations:
> bicycle=carried, bicycle=folded, bicycle=boxed...
>
> But the problem with this, as I've learned, is decades of tagging by
> mappers who had no experience with the idea of bicycles being completely
> prohibited, so used bicycle=no to mean bicycle=dismount in situations where
> foot traffic was permitted.
>
> If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the
> idea of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then I'd
> suggest a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a
> regulation key (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key. Total
> bicycle prohibition would be encoded with both bicycle=no and
> dismounted_bicycle=no, and other dismounted_bicycle=* values can be
> developed for whatever the regulations are in particular situations.
>
> Jason
>

According to OSM wiki history, `bicycle=dismount` is a pretty recent tag,
perhaps less than 7 years old. I think `bicycle=no` was invented much
earlier. Hence it is you who wants to redefine a well established tag.

According to the first version of access=* in 2006:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:access=3772
>  Closed to or unsuitable for bicycle traffic
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Re: [Tagging] Hiking "guideposts" painted on rocks, trees etc.

2020-07-22 Thread Andy Townsend


On 22/07/2020 16:08, pangoSE wrote:


I suggest you add the guidepost to a node on the path instead.

Please don't do this.  If there's a gate on one side of the road you 
wouldn't add that gate to the road itself, would you?



I really think it would be nice to be able to say query and list all 
hotels, wilderness huts and shelters within 200 m of the Kungsleden 
trail (Swedens most famous trail) but I don't think adding them to 
relations is the way forward. Maybe this can already be done with 
overpass. 


What Overpass certainly can't do is tell you "which guideposts are for 
which trail" if that information isn't recorded anywhere.



Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Jmapb

On 7/22/2020 10:34 AM, Allroads wrote:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterloopbos._Natuurgebied_van_Natuurmonumenten._Informatiebord.jpg
- Fietsers op verharde fietspaden en wegen
-Bicyclist on paved cycleway and roads.
Here is written what is allowed.
But more important:
Overigens verboden toegang Artikel 461 W.v.S.
Others prohibited access, article 461 Code criminal law.
The word “Overigens” means: all the other which is not mentioned
above on the sign
Not pushing a bicycle on a unpaved cyclway, path, tracks. So others
then “wegen” roads.
A active Openmapstreet member got a ticket for pushing his bike on a
not allowed “wegen” by a certified ranger (BOA) Community service officer.

I wonder if carrying a bicycle (possibly folded) would also be
prohibited on these unpaved ways?

As was mentioned in the last thread, the rules for most federal
wilderness areas in the USA strictly prohibit possession of any bicycle
on the property, whether the wheels ever touch the ground or not.
Rangers will fine the violators.

To me, the simplest and most logical tagging approach would be:
- bicycle=no means no bicycles, ridden or otherwise
- bicycle=dismount means pushing is allowed
- other values can be used for even more restrictive situations:
bicycle=carried, bicycle=folded, bicycle=boxed...

But the problem with this, as I've learned, is decades of tagging by
mappers who had no experience with the idea of bicycles being completely
prohibited, so used bicycle=no to mean bicycle=dismount in situations
where foot traffic was permitted.

If this unfortunate tagging practice really needs to be preserved (the
idea of retagging so many bicycle=no ways is certainly daunting) then
I'd suggest a new key, dismounted_bicycle=*, which will function as a
regulation key (like smoking=*) rather than a vehicle access key. Total
bicycle prohibition would be encoded with both bicycle=no and
dismounted_bicycle=no, and other dismounted_bicycle=* values can be
developed for whatever the regulations are in particular situations.

Jason

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Re: [Tagging] Hiking "guideposts" painted on rocks, trees etc.

2020-07-22 Thread pangoSE

Bad practice if you ask me. Where do we limit what POI is nice to add? I have 
seen huts and shelters and viepoint and buildings added to routes in Sweden. It 
completely botches up the height profiling by data consumers like waymarked 
trails and the calculation of route length becomes harder.

I suggest you add the guidepost to a node on the path instead. 

I really think it would be nice to be able to say query and list all hotels, 
wilderness huts and shelters within 200 m of the Kungsleden trail (Swedens most 
famous trail) but I don't think adding them to relations is the way forward. 
Maybe this can already be done with overpass. At least JOSM can download 
information along a way so it should be possible to implement.

Cheers 
PangoSE

Martin Koppenhoefer  skrev: (22 juli 2020 14:04:25 CEST)
>Am Di., 21. Juli 2020 um 21:39 Uhr schrieb pangoSE
>:
>
>> Andy Townsend  skrev: (21 juli 2020 13:31:45 CEST)
>> >On 21/07/2020 12:04, Michal Fabík wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I've also been trying to add these (both guideposts and route
>markers)
>> >to the relevant hiking route relation.
>>
>> That does not sound right to me. Why would you do that? A route
>relation
>> is in my mind for ways or relations of ways that make up the path.
>Nothing
>> else.
>
>
>
>it is common practise, at least in some areas. "Why"? Because it is a
>way
>to connect the guideposts to the route. It also seems logical that the
>route consists also of these posts.
>
>Cheers
>Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Farmlands subject to rotation of crops

2020-07-22 Thread Joseph Eisenberg

I agree that the information "crops are rotated in this field" is not
verifiable, because it is recording historic information about what
happened the last few seasons, rather than what is in the field right now.

It is ok to tag the crop that is currently planted in a field, especially
if it's a perennial crop which will be the same for several years. Even if
it is only an annual it might be semi-permanent: rice terraces are used to
plant rice every season, because they are specially designed and irrigated
for that purpose, for example. And if a mapper wants to add information on
the current crop this year, this is fine too: though it might require
updating each year.

I've previously asked about a tag for farmland (cropland) which is
currently fallow. If it's been fallow for a while, usually grasses or other
semi-natural vegetation will grow back (in most climates), and it can be
tagged as landuse=meadow (even if it's not used for hay or grazing). But
before that, it's not clear if there is a tag for cropland that is
unplanted and temporarily fallow for a few months to 1 year.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 2:57 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Jul 22, 2020, 11:33 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 22. Jul 2020, at 10:36, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> I would go with farmland, orchard, vineyard and not even consider
> indicating any rotation of crops.
>
>
>
> +1, these are also those that I distinguish, because annually sown crops
> are subject to frequent changes, while you typically will keep vineyards
> and orchards for many years.
>
> +1, I would consider crop rotation tagging as historic unverifiable data
> and therefore out of scope of OSM
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Allroads

https://images.mapillary.com/yQWkL-XX5eRN5A2j0JkKIA/thumb-2048.jpg
Geen toegang:
- met (brom)fietsen.
No access:
- with bicycles.
This is written, grammatically and orthographly, in a way, that the "vehicle"
is meant.
explicit the bicycle no access.

This is privat land, Staatsbosbeheer, owned or in control, all over the
Netherlands, you see these type of signs, arranged in the same way, the layout.
Mostly all of these roads/tracks path are permissive

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Waterloopbos._Natuurgebied_van_Natuurmonumenten._Informatiebord.jpg
- Fietsers op verharde fietspaden en wegen
-Bicyclist on paved cycleway and roads.
Here is written what is allowed.
But more important:
Overigens verboden toegang Artikel 461 W.v.S.
Others prohibited access, article 461 Code criminal law.
The word “Overigens” means: all the other which is not mentioned above on the
sign
Not pushing a bicycle on a unpaved cyclway, path, tracks. So others then
“wegen” roads.

A active Openmapstreet member got a ticket for pushing his bike on a not
allowed “wegen” by a certified ranger (BOA) Community service officer.

This sign with “Overigens” of the private organisation Natuurmonumenten, you
find them all over the Netherlands, with the same layout.

‘'
bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign forbidding
this",

Indeed.

not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".

That sounds like bicycle=prohibited. :)

‘'

Text on sign: “Overigens” and “- met fietsen” "bicycle vehicle itself is
prohibited”

I need a value .*=explicit_no for “the vehicle” or some other value that means
the same. “the bicycle is not allowed”

This is for all kind of transportation and vehicles. Pushing carry/not allowed.

It seems highly strange that you wouldn't even be allowed to carry/push your
bike, are you sure that was what it meant?
Do you have a picture of the sign?

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Alan Mackie

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 14:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> 22 Jul 2020, 14:24 by pla16...@gmail.com:
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 13:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign
> forbidding this",
>
>
> Indeed.
>
>
> not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".
>
>
> That sounds like bicycle=prohibited. :)
>
> Maybe prohibited_item?
>

Would bicycle=contraband work? It's stretching the definition a little, but
does have the emphasis on 'prohibited item' rather than 'prohibited mode'.
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?




22 Jul 2020, 14:24 by pla16...@gmail.com:

> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 13:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <> 
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign forbidding 
>> this",
>>
>
> Indeed.
>
>
>>
>> not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".
>>
>
> That sounds like bicycle=prohibited. :)
>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

>
> On the other hand, the terms of services of transport companies usually
>> have written provisions for carrying on folded bicycles irrespective of
>> size limits (for example, they even allow folded mountain bikes).
>>
> they might not even allow big boxes, according to the current situation
> (empty or full).
>
>
Yes, the terms of service of transport companies around here clearly state
luggage restrictions regarding dimensions and weight. However, the same
document waives just these limits in certain well defined categories
(foldable bicycles, strolles, ski equipment, plants, etc).

Of course they can still apply blanket terms to not let you board if you do
something unreasonable, like carry a 10 meter high foldable, a motorized
stroller or something like that.

nice project, although it looks as if it may get far too heavy to carry
>> around once it is realized.
>>
>
>
As mentioned, there exist both concept and mass produced alternatives that
have tiny luggage wheels just to aid carry, I can post some links if you
haven't seen such before. Although, you generally rarely carry your
foldable for extended periods - it is usually the one doing the carrying!

I probably wouldn't understand what `bicycle=explicit_no` means if I didn't
know about this thread. A core concept to follow when inventing OSM tags is
that smart enough individuals should be capable of deciphering what a tag
means just by reading all tags (and/or the possible values for the key) of
the given POI and the context even without consulting the wiki.

It's a funny thing that I wanted to recommend `bicycle=prohibited` at the
same time instant that Paul posted his reply! Not sure what the _best_ tag
would be, but at least this could be somewhat understood.
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Paul Allen

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 13:22, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign
> forbidding this",
>

Indeed.

not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".
>

That sounds like bicycle=prohibited. :)

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

bicycle=explicit_no sounds to me like "there is an explicit sign forbidding 
this",
not "bicycle vehicle itself is prohibited, not just cycling".


Jul 21, 2020, 23:48 by allroadswo...@gmail.com:

> There lots of forest roads/path, where the bicycle/pushed carried is 
> prohibited. Mostly, private owned land with a access_sign.
> “the bicycle” “transportation vehicle” is prohibited.
>  
> Because, navigation programs do not us bicycle=no, as a hard no, there is the 
> need for a extra value.
> bicycle=explicit_no, means “the vehicle” is prohibited.
>  
> Why a value?
> We need a one value, otherwise a lot of more keys, which makes it things 
> complicated. At the end it means for all explicit no!
> bicycle_pushed <>> => no <>
> motorcycle_pushed=no
> horse_pushed=no ;-)
> moped_pushed=no
> mofa_pushed=no
> etc.
>  
> Better one value, key=explicit_no
>  
> What do you think?
>  
> If we do not solve this problem, this stays forever.
>  
> On the wiki page dismount, this bicycle_pushed is mentioned.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount
> For me a wrong advise.
> The problem is wider for more transportation modes, even for other product to 
> carry around.
>  
> Private access_sign rules, can go much further then traffic_sign. In what is 
> prohibited.
> What the owner think and write down on the sign is valid.
> The skateboard is prohibited, means you can not carry a skateboard around 
> with you.
> skateboard=explicit_no
>  
> I need this value to do it correctly. Where the bicycle is no allowed. Or a 
> other value meaning the same.
>  
>

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Re: [Tagging] Hiking "guideposts" painted on rocks, trees etc.

Am Di., 21. Juli 2020 um 21:39 Uhr schrieb pangoSE :

> Andy Townsend  skrev: (21 juli 2020 13:31:45 CEST)
> >On 21/07/2020 12:04, Michal Fabík wrote:
>
> >
> >I've also been trying to add these (both guideposts and route markers)
> >to the relevant hiking route relation.
>
> That does not sound right to me. Why would you do that? A route relation
> is in my mind for ways or relations of ways that make up the path. Nothing
> else.



it is common practise, at least in some areas. "Why"? Because it is a way
to connect the guideposts to the route. It also seems logical that the
route consists also of these posts.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 11:48 Uhr schrieb bkil :

> I have yet to see a park where they limit the size of luggage I can carry
> with me (within rational limits).
>
> I think local law always defines what a bicycle is exactly. I don't think
> that they have the right to search your box to check whether it contains
> legally defined bicycles - that could only be done by a police officer and
> would need a warrant, so I think we can always carry bicycles in a box.
> Mind you that luggage could also have wheels.
>
>

whether a warrant is needed, will depend largely on the local jurisdiction.
For example it isn't the same situation whether you are in Bavaria or in
Berlin.



> For circumventing carry-on rules, it was common knowledge that if you
> removed the front tire, it could not be ridden anymore and could be
> understood to be not a bicycle, rather it was classified as "bicycle parts".
>


did you see my picture 3 from above? It deals exactly with this.



> If you carry a front wheel and your friend carries the rest, can you enter
> the park? Both of you are only carrying parts, and none of you
> possess bicycles.
>


you see. It isn't clear at all what you have to do in order to make your
bike not a bike any more, and I guess this probably would also depend on
the judge, if this would go to court.



>
> On the other hand, the terms of services of transport companies usually
> have written provisions for carrying on folded bicycles irrespective of
> size limits (for example, they even allow folded mountain bikes).
>


they might not even allow big boxes, according to the current situation
(empty or full).



> Just for kicks:
>
> https://ecofriend.com/bike-that-folds-into-an-a3-paper-size-box-is-rightly-named-the-a3-bicycle.html
>


nice project, although it looks as if it may get far too heavy to carry
around once it is realized.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

This may all sound tangential or nitpicking to you, but to those with the
right equipment, the tags you propose, depending on scenario would simply
be misleading.

A photo would help to understand the exact place, but I think you could
easily push your foldable bike through narrow passages if you rotate your
handlebar and/or fold your pedals.

If you can fold your bicycle in 15 seconds, it integrates a
visually protective cover and has small luggage-wheels for moving when
folded, it would not cause a problem to take a 100m detour in the park if
it could save you kilometers and/or going into dangerous traffic. I've seen
such designs in mass production, but wouldn't want to do much advertising
here.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:06 PM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> The boxes business is most likely leading us a bit up the Nymphenburg
> Schlosspark garden path.
> The real issue is routing for bicycles.
> Many (bicycle) routers I know would route you against (short) stretches of
> one-way roads or on short stretches of (bicycle=no) footpaths, so in those
> cases it is important to be sure that you distinguish between hard-no and
> soft-no for bicycles.
> I have come across another type of hard-no for bicycles in the form of
> chicane-type cycle barriers too narrow to push a bicycle (or a wheelchair)
> through.
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 11:48, bkil  wrote:
>
>> I have yet to see a park where they limit the size of luggage I can carry
>> with me (within rational limits).
>>
>> I think local law always defines what a bicycle is exactly. I don't think
>> that they have the right to search your box to check whether it contains
>> legally defined bicycles - that could only be done by a police officer and
>> would need a warrant, so I think we can always carry bicycles in a box.
>> Mind you that luggage could also have wheels.
>>
>> For circumventing carry-on rules, it was common knowledge that if you
>> removed the front tire, it could not be ridden anymore and could be
>> understood to be not a bicycle, rather it was classified as "bicycle
>> parts". Some thought this could be used to transport bicycles on a train
>> for free, but it was actually oversized for the definition of luggage, so
>> the actual deciding factor was always the kindness of the staff.
>>
>> If you carry a front wheel and your friend carries the rest, can you
>> enter the park? Both of you are only carrying parts, and none of you
>> possess bicycles.
>>
>> On the other hand, the terms of services of transport companies usually
>> have written provisions for carrying on folded bicycles irrespective of
>> size limits (for example, they even allow folded mountain bikes).
>>
>> Just for kicks:
>>
>> https://ecofriend.com/bike-that-folds-into-an-a3-paper-size-box-is-rightly-named-the-a3-bicycle.html
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:30 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <
>> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> sent from a phone
>>>
>>> On 22. Jul 2020, at 11:07, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
>>> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> bicycle_pushed=no was suggested in previous discussion, see
>>>
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-November/thread.html#49056
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> and then you would also need
>>> bicycle_carried=no
>>> and
>>> bicycle_carried_in_a_box=no
>>> (the latter is rare and could be seen as another way of saying
>>> carrying_boxes=no or maybe carrying_boxes:conditional =no@(any_dimension
>>> > 0.3m)
>>>
>>> And we would have to define what „bicycle“ means.
>>>
>>> Are these bicycles?
>>> 1.
>>> https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/F-8AAOSwstJZXeV2/$_12.JPG
>>>
>>> 2.
>>> http://img0.biker-boarder.de/detail_oxp1/g13_edge_raw.jpg
>>>
>>> 3.
>>> http://www.unicyclist.com/filedata/fetch?id=2476281
>>>
>>> 4.
>>>
>>> https://photos.netjuggler.net/monocycle-kris-holm-24p/grande/Monocycle-Kris-Holm-24-pouces-isis1.jpg
>>>
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Cheers Martin
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

The boxes business is most likely leading us a bit up the Nymphenburg
Schlosspark garden path.
The real issue is routing for bicycles.
Many (bicycle) routers I know would route you against (short) stretches of
one-way roads or on short stretches of (bicycle=no) footpaths, so in those
cases it is important to be sure that you distinguish between hard-no and
soft-no for bicycles.
I have come across another type of hard-no for bicycles in the form of
chicane-type cycle barriers too narrow to push a bicycle (or a wheelchair)
through.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 11:48, bkil  wrote:

> I have yet to see a park where they limit the size of luggage I can carry
> with me (within rational limits).
>
> I think local law always defines what a bicycle is exactly. I don't think
> that they have the right to search your box to check whether it contains
> legally defined bicycles - that could only be done by a police officer and
> would need a warrant, so I think we can always carry bicycles in a box.
> Mind you that luggage could also have wheels.
>
> For circumventing carry-on rules, it was common knowledge that if you
> removed the front tire, it could not be ridden anymore and could be
> understood to be not a bicycle, rather it was classified as "bicycle
> parts". Some thought this could be used to transport bicycles on a train
> for free, but it was actually oversized for the definition of luggage, so
> the actual deciding factor was always the kindness of the staff.
>
> If you carry a front wheel and your friend carries the rest, can you enter
> the park? Both of you are only carrying parts, and none of you
> possess bicycles.
>
> On the other hand, the terms of services of transport companies usually
> have written provisions for carrying on folded bicycles irrespective of
> size limits (for example, they even allow folded mountain bikes).
>
> Just for kicks:
>
> https://ecofriend.com/bike-that-folds-into-an-a3-paper-size-box-is-rightly-named-the-a3-bicycle.html
>
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:30 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> On 22. Jul 2020, at 11:07, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
>> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>> bicycle_pushed=no was suggested in previous discussion, see
>>
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-November/thread.html#49056
>>
>>
>>
>> and then you would also need
>> bicycle_carried=no
>> and
>> bicycle_carried_in_a_box=no
>> (the latter is rare and could be seen as another way of saying
>> carrying_boxes=no or maybe carrying_boxes:conditional =no@(any_dimension
>> > 0.3m)
>>
>> And we would have to define what „bicycle“ means.
>>
>> Are these bicycles?
>> 1.
>> https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/F-8AAOSwstJZXeV2/$_12.JPG
>>
>> 2.
>> http://img0.biker-boarder.de/detail_oxp1/g13_edge_raw.jpg
>>
>> 3.
>> http://www.unicyclist.com/filedata/fetch?id=2476281
>>
>> 4.
>>
>> https://photos.netjuggler.net/monocycle-kris-holm-24p/grande/Monocycle-Kris-Holm-24-pouces-isis1.jpg
>>
>> etc.
>>
>> Cheers Martin
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Farmlands subject to rotation of crops




Jul 22, 2020, 11:33 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 22. Jul 2020, at 10:36, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>>
>> I would go with farmland, orchard, vineyard and not even consider indicating 
>> any rotation of crops.
>>
>
>
> +1, these are also those that I distinguish, because annually sown crops are 
> subject to frequent changes, while you typically will keep vineyards and 
> orchards for many years.
>
+1, I would consider crop rotation tagging as historic unverifiable data and 
therefore out of scope of OSM

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

In Hungary, you are not considered a driver when you are pushing a bicycle
or a moped, but you are if you push a motorcycle.

In museums, I think I would tag cloakroom:use=mandatory or something like
that. It happened to me in the past that I've checked in my portable
bicycle in the cloakroom when I didn't have a lock at hand and they didn't
mind.

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:43 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 11:34 Uhr schrieb bkil :
>
>> I think the core idea behind such a restriction is that people only want
>> to go to that park for walking around (no cross-traffic), and pushing the
>> bike for half an hour doesn't make much sense and allowing people to push
>> bikes around would risk them hopping on the bike when nobody is looking.
>>
>> What does this sign mean exactly, does this only disallow pushing a bike
>> or am I also discouraged from carrying one in, like a foldable bike? A
>> foldable bike can be carried onto city buses as luggage around here without
>> an extra fee. How could such a sign limit the type of luggage I can carry
>> onto the premises?
>>
>> Also, I'd invent something like this:
>> dog=carried
>>
>
>
> in some places you are not allowed to carry big objects (sometimes not
> even small bags like lady's handbags or umbrellas), e.g. in certain
> museums. On the other hand, I am not sure we even need to tag these things,
> of course you cannot bring your bike to an indoor museum typically. Or a
> huge box. What about pushing a motorcycle, I believe legally you are a
> pedestrian as well.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

I have yet to see a park where they limit the size of luggage I can carry
with me (within rational limits).

I think local law always defines what a bicycle is exactly. I don't think
that they have the right to search your box to check whether it contains
legally defined bicycles - that could only be done by a police officer and
would need a warrant, so I think we can always carry bicycles in a box.
Mind you that luggage could also have wheels.

For circumventing carry-on rules, it was common knowledge that if you
removed the front tire, it could not be ridden anymore and could be
understood to be not a bicycle, rather it was classified as "bicycle
parts". Some thought this could be used to transport bicycles on a train
for free, but it was actually oversized for the definition of luggage, so
the actual deciding factor was always the kindness of the staff.

If you carry a front wheel and your friend carries the rest, can you enter
the park? Both of you are only carrying parts, and none of you
possess bicycles.

On the other hand, the terms of services of transport companies usually
have written provisions for carrying on folded bicycles irrespective of
size limits (for example, they even allow folded mountain bikes).

Just for kicks:
https://ecofriend.com/bike-that-folds-into-an-a3-paper-size-box-is-rightly-named-the-a3-bicycle.html

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:30 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 22. Jul 2020, at 11:07, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> bicycle_pushed=no was suggested in previous discussion, see
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-November/thread.html#49056
>
>
>
> and then you would also need
> bicycle_carried=no
> and
> bicycle_carried_in_a_box=no
> (the latter is rare and could be seen as another way of saying
> carrying_boxes=no or maybe carrying_boxes:conditional =no@(any_dimension
> > 0.3m)
>
> And we would have to define what „bicycle“ means.
>
> Are these bicycles?
> 1.
> https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/F-8AAOSwstJZXeV2/$_12.JPG
>
> 2.
> http://img0.biker-boarder.de/detail_oxp1/g13_edge_raw.jpg
>
> 3.
> http://www.unicyclist.com/filedata/fetch?id=2476281
>
> 4.
>
> https://photos.netjuggler.net/monocycle-kris-holm-24p/grande/Monocycle-Kris-Holm-24-pouces-isis1.jpg
>
> etc.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Am Mi., 22. Juli 2020 um 11:34 Uhr schrieb bkil :

> I think the core idea behind such a restriction is that people only want
> to go to that park for walking around (no cross-traffic), and pushing the
> bike for half an hour doesn't make much sense and allowing people to push
> bikes around would risk them hopping on the bike when nobody is looking.
>
> What does this sign mean exactly, does this only disallow pushing a bike
> or am I also discouraged from carrying one in, like a foldable bike? A
> foldable bike can be carried onto city buses as luggage around here without
> an extra fee. How could such a sign limit the type of luggage I can carry
> onto the premises?
>
> Also, I'd invent something like this:
> dog=carried
>


in some places you are not allowed to carry big objects (sometimes not even
small bags like lady's handbags or umbrellas), e.g. in certain museums. On
the other hand, I am not sure we even need to tag these things, of course
you cannot bring your bike to an indoor museum typically. Or a huge box.
What about pushing a motorcycle, I believe legally you are a pedestrian as
well.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

2020-07-22 Thread Philip Barnes

On Wed, 2020-07-22 at 11:32 +0200, bkil wrote:
> I think the core idea behind such a restriction is that people only
> want to go to that park for walking around (no cross-traffic), and
> pushing the bike for half an hour doesn't make much sense and
> allowing people to push bikes around would risk them hopping on the
> bike when nobody is looking.
> 
> What does this sign mean exactly, does this only disallow pushing a
> bike or am I also discouraged from carrying one in, like a foldable
> bike? A foldable bike can be carried onto city buses as luggage
> around here without an extra fee. How could such a sign limit the
> type of luggage I can carry onto the premises?
> 
> Also, I'd invent something like this:dog=carried

I know this is a very old joke, but
The first time I went on the London Underground, I saw a sign saying
'dogs must be carried'. I then spent half an hour looking for a dog.

More seriously that tag does make sense. The sign is used on escalators
on the London Underground so imagine it applies on escalators
elsewhere.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Farmlands subject to rotation of crops



sent from a phone

> On 22. Jul 2020, at 10:36, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I would go with farmland, orchard, vineyard and not even consider indicating 
> any rotation of crops.


+1, these are also those that I distinguish, because annually sown crops are 
subject to frequent changes, while you typically will keep vineyards and 
orchards for many years.

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

I think the core idea behind such a restriction is that people only want to
go to that park for walking around (no cross-traffic), and pushing the bike
for half an hour doesn't make much sense and allowing people to push bikes
around would risk them hopping on the bike when nobody is looking.

What does this sign mean exactly, does this only disallow pushing a bike or
am I also discouraged from carrying one in, like a foldable bike? A
foldable bike can be carried onto city buses as luggage around here without
an extra fee. How could such a sign limit the type of luggage I can carry
onto the premises?

Also, I'd invent something like this:
dog=carried

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:22 AM Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> Apart from the island parts of Venice, there is this "famous" example,
> cited everytime the argument comes up: Bicycles, even walke, are not
> allowed in the Schlosspark Nympenburg (see leaflet):
>
> 
> "Das Mitführen von Fahrrädern ist im ganzen Park nicht gestattet. Nutzen
> Sie bitte das Angebot an Fahrradständern an den Eingängen."
> It appears that we still have no commonly agreed tag in OSM to indicate
> that type of restriction. OSM's "bicycle=no" is used to mean "riding of
> bicycle is forbidden" or  "you cannot bring a bicycle here".
> I agree we need a tag for a "hard" no-bicycle tag.
> In theory we do have the bicycle=dismount tag for not-riding a bicycle,
> but, unfortunately we do have too many existing uses bicycle=no in the
> database that in reality should be bicycle=dismount
> (Taginfo:
> 1?078?526 bicycle=no
> 79528 bicycle=dismount)
> I do not like "explicit-no", but I do not have any alternative suggestion
> either. bicycle=hard-no ? bicycle=prohibited ?
>
> I guess there is a similar problem with dogs: there are places where you
> cannot bring a dog, and there are places where you can not walk your dog,
> but you may carry it.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 10:32, Oliver Simmons 
> wrote:
>
>> It seems highly strange that you wouldn't even be allowed to carry/push
>> your bike, are you sure that was what it meant?
>> Do you have a picture of the sign?
>>
>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 22:50 Allroads,  wrote:
>>
>>> There lots of forest roads/path, where the bicycle/pushed carried is
>>> prohibited. Mostly, private owned land with a access_sign.
>>> “the bicycle” “transportation vehicle” is prohibited.
>>>
>>> Because, navigation programs do not us bicycle=no, as a hard no, there
>>> is the need for a extra value.
>>> bicycle=explicit_no, means “the vehicle” is prohibited.
>>>
>>> Why a value?
>>> We need a one value, otherwise a lot of more keys, which makes it things
>>> complicated. At the end it means for all explicit no!
>>> bicycle_pushed=no
>>> motorcycle_pushed=no
>>> horse_pushed=no ;-)
>>> moped_pushed=no
>>> mofa_pushed=no
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> Better one value, key=explicit_no
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> If we do not solve this problem, this stays forever.
>>>
>>> On the wiki page dismount, this bicycle_pushed is mentioned.
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount
>>> For me a wrong advise.
>>> The problem is wider for more transportation modes, even for other
>>> product to carry around.
>>>
>>> Private access_sign rules, can go much further then traffic_sign. In
>>> what is prohibited.
>>> What the owner think and write down on the sign is valid.
>>> The skateboard is prohibited, means you can not carry a skateboard
>>> around with you.
>>> skateboard=explicit_no
>>>
>>> I need this value to do it correctly. Where the bicycle is no allowed.
>>> Or a other value meaning the same.
>>>
>>> ___
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>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?



sent from a phone

> On 22. Jul 2020, at 11:07, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> bicycle_pushed=no was suggested in previous discussion, see
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-November/thread.html#49056


and then you would also need
bicycle_carried=no
and
bicycle_carried_in_a_box=no
(the latter is rare and could be seen as another way of saying 
carrying_boxes=no or maybe carrying_boxes:conditional =no@(any_dimension > 0.3m)

And we would have to define what „bicycle“ means.

Are these bicycles?
1. 
https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/F-8AAOSwstJZXeV2/$_12.JPG

2.
http://img0.biker-boarder.de/detail_oxp1/g13_edge_raw.jpg

3.
http://www.unicyclist.com/filedata/fetch?id=2476281

4.
https://photos.netjuggler.net/monocycle-kris-holm-24p/grande/Monocycle-Kris-Holm-24-pouces-isis1.jpg

etc.

Cheers Martin 

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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

Apart from the island parts of Venice, there is this "famous" example,
cited everytime the argument comes up: Bicycles, even walke, are not
allowed in the Schlosspark Nympenburg (see leaflet):

"Das Mitführen von Fahrrädern ist im ganzen Park nicht gestattet. Nutzen
Sie bitte das Angebot an Fahrradständern an den Eingängen."
It appears that we still have no commonly agreed tag in OSM to indicate
that type of restriction. OSM's "bicycle=no" is used to mean "riding of
bicycle is forbidden" or  "you cannot bring a bicycle here".
I agree we need a tag for a "hard" no-bicycle tag.
In theory we do have the bicycle=dismount tag for not-riding a bicycle,
but, unfortunately we do have too many existing uses bicycle=no in the
database that in reality should be bicycle=dismount
(Taginfo:
1?078?526 bicycle=no
79528 bicycle=dismount)
I do not like "explicit-no", but I do not have any alternative suggestion
either. bicycle=hard-no ? bicycle=prohibited ?

I guess there is a similar problem with dogs: there are places where you
cannot bring a dog, and there are places where you can not walk your dog,
but you may carry it.

On Wed, 22 Jul 2020 at 10:32, Oliver Simmons  wrote:

> It seems highly strange that you wouldn't even be allowed to carry/push
> your bike, are you sure that was what it meant?
> Do you have a picture of the sign?
>
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 22:50 Allroads,  wrote:
>
>> There lots of forest roads/path, where the bicycle/pushed carried is
>> prohibited. Mostly, private owned land with a access_sign.
>> “the bicycle” “transportation vehicle” is prohibited.
>>
>> Because, navigation programs do not us bicycle=no, as a hard no, there is
>> the need for a extra value.
>> bicycle=explicit_no, means “the vehicle” is prohibited.
>>
>> Why a value?
>> We need a one value, otherwise a lot of more keys, which makes it things
>> complicated. At the end it means for all explicit no!
>> bicycle_pushed=no
>> motorcycle_pushed=no
>> horse_pushed=no ;-)
>> moped_pushed=no
>> mofa_pushed=no
>> etc.
>>
>> Better one value, key=explicit_no
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> If we do not solve this problem, this stays forever.
>>
>> On the wiki page dismount, this bicycle_pushed is mentioned.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount
>> For me a wrong advise.
>> The problem is wider for more transportation modes, even for other
>> product to carry around.
>>
>> Private access_sign rules, can go much further then traffic_sign. In what
>> is prohibited.
>> What the owner think and write down on the sign is valid.
>> The skateboard is prohibited, means you can not carry a skateboard around
>> with you.
>> skateboard=explicit_no
>>
>> I need this value to do it correctly. Where the bicycle is no allowed. Or
>> a other value meaning the same.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Is there a good way to indicate "pushing bicycle not allowed here"?

It happens in some places, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount

bicycle_pushed=no was suggested in previous discussion, see
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-November/thread.html#49056


Jul 22, 2020, 10:29 by oliversi...@gmail.com:

> It seems highly strange that you wouldn't even be allowed to carry/push your 
> bike, are you sure that was what it meant?
> Do you have a picture of the sign?
>
> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020, 22:50 Allroads, <> allroadswo...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
>> There lots of forest roads/path, where the bicycle/pushed carried is 
>> prohibited. Mostly, private owned land with a access_sign.
>> “the bicycle” “transportation vehicle” is prohibited.
>>  
>> Because, navigation programs do not us bicycle=no, as a hard no, there is 
>> the need for a extra value.
>> bicycle=explicit_no, means “the vehicle” is prohibited.
>>  
>> Why a value?
>> We need a one value, otherwise a lot of more keys, which makes it things 
>> complicated. At the end it means for all explicit no!
>> bicycle_pushed <>>> =>> no <>
>> motorcycle_pushed=no
>> horse_pushed=no ;-)
>> moped_pushed=no
>> mofa_pushed=no
>> etc.
>>  
>> Better one value, key=explicit_no
>>  
>> What do you think?
>>  
>> If we do not solve this problem, this stays forever.
>>  
>> On the wiki page dismount, this bicycle_pushed is mentioned.
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:bicycle%3Ddismount
>> For me a wrong advise.
>> The problem is wider for more transportation modes, even for other product 
>> to carry around.
>>  
>> Private access_sign rules, can go much further then traffic_sign. In what is 
>> prohibited.
>> What the owner think and write down on the sign is valid.
>> The skateboard is prohibited, means you can not carry a skateboard around 
>> with you.
>> skateboard=explicit_no
>>  
>> I need this value to do it correctly. Where the bicycle is no allowed. Or a 
>> other value meaning the same.
>>  
>> ___
>>  Tagging mailing list
>>  >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>

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Re: [Tagging] Farmlands subject to rotation of crops