[Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part of an outreach project ? The cafe is available to everyone, but the employees are part of an outreach project (e.g. people with disabilities). Thanks in advance m. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
This is a tricky issue. I expect not all of them to be happy to publicise that fact. We have here in Italy many businesses or amenities that are run by social cooperatives [1] that employ people with special needs. From the Wikipedia article it seems that similar forms are common in Belgium. In Italy we could deal with this by putting the full name of the operator in the "operator" tag. That full name would include the wording "cooperativa sociale" [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cooperative ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
In both cases I encountered, the website clearly states it: (In Dutch) http://widar.be/widar/beleven/den-bayerd-het-casino/ clearly states "people with an handicap" https://www.mechelen.be/eetcafe-t-ass-2 It mentions people with a form of autism (it is worded more nicely in Dutch) there is nothing hidden in the two cases I wanted to map. But indeed, I can imagine that not all projects are so open about it. m On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: > This is a tricky issue. I expect not all of them to be happy to publicise > that fact. > We have here in Italy many businesses or amenities that are run by social > cooperatives [1] that employ people with special needs. From the Wikipedia > article it seems that similar forms are common in Belgium. > In Italy we could deal with this by putting the full name of the operator in > the "operator" tag. That full name would include the wording "cooperativa > sociale" > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cooperative > > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
2018-04-12 7:23 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis : > How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part of an > outreach project ? > The cafe is available to everyone, but the employees are part of an > outreach project (e.g. people with disabilities). amenity=cafe social_facility=outreach ? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
On 12 April 2018 at 06:23, Marc Gemis wrote: > How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part of an > outreach project ? amenity = cafe operator = Foobar We don't have specific tags for other types of operators (public company private company, sole trader, cooperative, charity, etc); why would we need one in this case? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
for the tag : operator:type=ngo https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type for the "publicly available" : for the two establishments of this type I know, being a "outreach project" is a part of the goal. we also go there to help the project and not just for the poi itself, so it seems very positive to me to add the information. it's over the time when helping someone different was shameful. Le 12. 04. 18 à 10:26, Marc Gemis a écrit : > In both cases I encountered, the website clearly states it: > > (In Dutch) > http://widar.be/widar/beleven/den-bayerd-het-casino/ clearly states > "people with an handicap" > https://www.mechelen.be/eetcafe-t-ass-2 It mentions people with a > form of autism (it is worded more nicely in Dutch) > > there is nothing hidden in the two cases I wanted to map. But indeed, > I can imagine that not all projects are so open about it. > > m > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: >> This is a tricky issue. I expect not all of them to be happy to publicise >> that fact. >> We have here in Italy many businesses or amenities that are run by social >> cooperatives [1] that employ people with special needs. From the Wikipedia >> article it seems that similar forms are common in Belgium. >> In Italy we could deal with this by putting the full name of the operator in >> the "operator" tag. That full name would include the wording "cooperativa >> sociale" >> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cooperative >> Marc Gemis >> marc.gemis at gmail.com >> Thu Apr 12 05:23:32 UTC 2018 >>> How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part >>> of an outreach project ? >>> The cafe is available to everyone, but the employees are part of an >>> outreach project (e.g. people with disabilities). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
Marc, to be clear, if a project clearly advertises it, they indicate they wish it to be known. My point was only to be cautious about adding it without having checked that the project in question wishes this to be known. Unfortunately our society includes all sorts of weird people. I am German and I hope to be only overcautious, but a cousin of mine with mental handicap was suppressed as a young girl by the German Aktion T4 [1] during the German occupation of Alsace (during World War II), and many places that are supposed to house immigrants in Germany suddenly burn down (today). Volker [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_T4 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
So I will add social_facility=outreach (and hope no-one thinks it is only accessible for people in an outreach group) operator=Foobar operator:type:ngo for now. In case new/better ideas pop-up, feel free to let me know. m. p.s. @Volker: I totally understand your viewpoint. I was wondering myself whether it is sensible to do, but since their website states it as well, I see no harm to add the information. As I wrote in an earlier their might be projects that are more secretive (is that the correct word to use?) in which case we should not map it, but I guess if the people serving you have some disability you will notice soon enough. On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:09 AM, marc marc wrote: > for the tag : operator:type=ngo > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type > > for the "publicly available" : for the two establishments of this type I > know, being a "outreach project" is a part of the goal. we also go there > to help the project and not just for the poi itself, so it seems very > positive to me to add the information. > it's over the time when helping someone different was shameful. > > Le 12. 04. 18 à 10:26, Marc Gemis a écrit : >> In both cases I encountered, the website clearly states it: >> >> (In Dutch) >> http://widar.be/widar/beleven/den-bayerd-het-casino/ clearly states >> "people with an handicap" >> https://www.mechelen.be/eetcafe-t-ass-2 It mentions people with a >> form of autism (it is worded more nicely in Dutch) >> >> there is nothing hidden in the two cases I wanted to map. But indeed, >> I can imagine that not all projects are so open about it. >> >> m >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Volker Schmidt wrote: >>> This is a tricky issue. I expect not all of them to be happy to publicise >>> that fact. >>> We have here in Italy many businesses or amenities that are run by social >>> cooperatives [1] that employ people with special needs. From the Wikipedia >>> article it seems that similar forms are common in Belgium. >>> In Italy we could deal with this by putting the full name of the operator in >>> the "operator" tag. That full name would include the wording "cooperativa >>> sociale" >>> >>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cooperative >> Marc Gemis >>> marc.gemis at gmail.com > >> Thu Apr 12 05:23:32 UTC 2018 > >>> How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part > >>> of an outreach project ? > >>> The cafe is available to everyone, but the employees are part of an > >>> outreach project (e.g. people with disabilities). > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
> for the tag : operator:type=ngo > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type > for the "publicly available" : for the two establishments of this type I > know, being a "outreach project" is a part of the goal. we also go there > to help the project and not just for the poi itself, so it seems very > positive to me to add the information. > it's over the time when helping someone different was shameful. I also find the operator=* tag the best solution. I gathered some experience on this topic and found out the following: _Everyone_ likes to have a "normal" job. "Helping" isn't about "lets have a coffee at this cafe, because these (poor) people need help" it is about support for a independent and self-determined existence. https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/382639 Gppes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging[https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
NGO is not the correct term. The Italian social cooperatives are, normally, small companies. That is much different form NGO [1], I think. In particular they are for-profit businesses. My earlier point was that if you put the operator's name in the "operator" tag, this would, in Italy, normally include the term "cooperativa sociale" as part of the name [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization On 12 April 2018 at 11:37, Marc Gemis wrote: > So I will add > > social_facility=outreach (and hope no-one thinks it is only accessible > for people in an outreach group) > operator=Foobar > operator:type:ngo > > for now. In case new/better ideas pop-up, feel free to let me know. > > m. > > p.s. @Volker: I totally understand your viewpoint. I was wondering > myself whether it is sensible to do, but since their website states it > as well, I see no harm to add the information. > As I wrote in an earlier their might be projects that are more > secretive (is that the correct word to use?) in which case we should > not map it, but I guess if the people serving you have some disability > you will notice soon enough. > > On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:09 AM, marc marc > wrote: > > for the tag : operator:type=ngo > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type > > > > for the "publicly available" : for the two establishments of this type I > > know, being a "outreach project" is a part of the goal. we also go there > > to help the project and not just for the poi itself, so it seems very > > positive to me to add the information. > > it's over the time when helping someone different was shameful. > > > > Le 12. 04. 18 à 10:26, Marc Gemis a écrit : > >> In both cases I encountered, the website clearly states it: > >> > >> (In Dutch) > >> http://widar.be/widar/beleven/den-bayerd-het-casino/ clearly states > >> "people with an handicap" > >> https://www.mechelen.be/eetcafe-t-ass-2 It mentions people with a > >> form of autism (it is worded more nicely in Dutch) > >> > >> there is nothing hidden in the two cases I wanted to map. But indeed, > >> I can imagine that not all projects are so open about it. > >> > >> m > >> > >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Volker Schmidt > wrote: > >>> This is a tricky issue. I expect not all of them to be happy to > publicise > >>> that fact. > >>> We have here in Italy many businesses or amenities that are run by > social > >>> cooperatives [1] that employ people with special needs. From the > Wikipedia > >>> article it seems that similar forms are common in Belgium. > >>> In Italy we could deal with this by putting the full name of the > operator in > >>> the "operator" tag. That full name would include the wording > "cooperativa > >>> sociale" > >>> > >>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cooperative >> Marc Gemis > marc.gemis at gmail.com > > >> Thu Apr 12 05:23:32 UTC 2018 > > >>> How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part > > >>> of an outreach project ? > > >>> The cafe is available to everyone, but the employees are part of an > > >>> outreach project (e.g. people with disabilities). > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
For the case at hand, it's an n.v (naamloze venootschap). A limited company. Says nothing at all about the area in which the company operates. On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 12:08 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote: > NGO is not the correct term. > The Italian social cooperatives are, normally, small companies. That is much > different form NGO [1], I think. In particular they are for-profit > businesses. > My earlier point was that if you put the operator's name in the "operator" > tag, this would, in Italy, normally include the term "cooperativa sociale" > as part of the name > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-governmental_organization > > On 12 April 2018 at 11:37, Marc Gemis wrote: >> >> So I will add >> >> social_facility=outreach (and hope no-one thinks it is only accessible >> for people in an outreach group) >> operator=Foobar >> operator:type:ngo >> >> for now. In case new/better ideas pop-up, feel free to let me know. >> >> m. >> >> p.s. @Volker: I totally understand your viewpoint. I was wondering >> myself whether it is sensible to do, but since their website states it >> as well, I see no harm to add the information. >> As I wrote in an earlier their might be projects that are more >> secretive (is that the correct word to use?) in which case we should >> not map it, but I guess if the people serving you have some disability >> you will notice soon enough. >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 11:09 AM, marc marc >> wrote: >> > for the tag : operator:type=ngo >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:operator:type >> > >> > for the "publicly available" : for the two establishments of this type I >> > know, being a "outreach project" is a part of the goal. we also go there >> > to help the project and not just for the poi itself, so it seems very >> > positive to me to add the information. >> > it's over the time when helping someone different was shameful. >> > >> > Le 12. 04. 18 à 10:26, Marc Gemis a écrit : >> >> In both cases I encountered, the website clearly states it: >> >> >> >> (In Dutch) >> >> http://widar.be/widar/beleven/den-bayerd-het-casino/ clearly states >> >> "people with an handicap" >> >> https://www.mechelen.be/eetcafe-t-ass-2 It mentions people with a >> >> form of autism (it is worded more nicely in Dutch) >> >> >> >> there is nothing hidden in the two cases I wanted to map. But indeed, >> >> I can imagine that not all projects are so open about it. >> >> >> >> m >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Volker Schmidt >> >> wrote: >> >>> This is a tricky issue. I expect not all of them to be happy to >> >>> publicise >> >>> that fact. >> >>> We have here in Italy many businesses or amenities that are run by >> >>> social >> >>> cooperatives [1] that employ people with special needs. From the >> >>> Wikipedia >> >>> article it seems that similar forms are common in Belgium. >> >>> In Italy we could deal with this by putting the full name of the >> >>> operator in >> >>> the "operator" tag. That full name would include the wording >> >>> "cooperativa >> >>> sociale" >> >>> >> >>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_cooperative >> Marc Gemis >> >>> marc.gemis at gmail.com >> > >> Thu Apr 12 05:23:32 UTC 2018 >> > >>> How do you tag a cafe (or any other amenity) that is run as part >> > >>> of an outreach project ? >> > >>> The cafe is available to everyone, but the employees are part of an >> > >>> outreach project (e.g. people with disabilities). >> > ___ >> > Tagging mailing list >> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cafe run as outreach project
sent from a phone > On 12. Apr 2018, at 11:08, Andy Mabbett wrote: > > amenity = cafe > operator = Foobar > > We don't have specific tags for other types of operators (public > company private company, sole trader, cooperative, charity, etc); why > would we need one in this case? My tagging suggestion was not about the company type, but about the fact it was classified as an outreach by the OP. After checking the meaning of “outreach” I’m not sure anymore the term does apply. The question is about a cafe where the waiters are people with disabilities, I also know 2 of such places. I believe they could be classified as sort of social facility, but I’m not sure outreach applies. The closest description for the documented values is in “workshop” but I don’t see it fitting completely. I guess the property social_facility:for=disabled applies, but we might need a new value for the social_facility=* key cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
