Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 11, 2019, 4:29 AM by jo...@mac.com:

> I was on the OSM-carto gorup and was **specifically** told to go to the 
> mailing lists to discuss the creating and modification of tags, as the gitub 
> discussions were how to implement and render already established tagging 
> schema. 
>
It was probably me.

>
> If you feel that all the “real” discussion happens over on github, because 
> all the noisy rabble has been sent over here to play in the kids area, 
> leaving your chat “free” of novice mappers ignorant of coding - wow. 
>

I just want to state that I do not share opinion that Github issues are a good 
place to discuss tagging.
And I would not treat seriously tagging discussion that are taking place there.


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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[John Willis]

> On Jan 10, 2019, at 10:31 AM, Bryan Housel  wrote:
> 
> Stopped reading here and Unsubscribing. 
> You are not funny, and I don’t need the stress that this mailing list brings. 
> 
> Good luck with tagging & Bye 


How unprofessional and dismissive. 

For someone making tools that implement tagging rules, dismissing the more 
public process of making those rules seems to be bass-ackwards.

Your tools (eventually) implement what is discussed here. 

I was on the OSM-carto gorup and was **specifically** told to go to the mailing 
lists to discuss the creating and modification of tags, as the gitub 
discussions were how to implement and render already established tagging 
schema. 

If you feel that all the “real” discussion happens over on github, because all 
the noisy rabble has been sent over here to play in the kids area, leaving your 
chat “free” of novice mappers ignorant of coding - wow. 

Pretending that that the development of tags isn’t driven by the mailing lists 
and the wiki is a delusion.

All the bad things with wikis occur - but it is where all the mappers go to 
read up on how tagging works when they need to use an unfamiliar tag for a 
novel object - and then mapped in a way prescribed (good or bad) by the wiki. 
Presets are powerful, but not as powerful as the wiki. 


Thanks for the reminder that the process that more OSM contributors are 
involved than github with is beneath you, and we are merely playing sandcastles 
while you do real work. 

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Markus]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 00:15, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
>
> But with great power comes great responsibility, if you forgive the
> stale quote. And while I'm not opposed to doing some sanity checking
> (i.e. not automatically supporting poorly thought out tags just because
> they are common), I do feel that the default editor on osm.org should
> generally only promote clearly established tagging styles.

+1

> For all these reasons, I consider the wiki a key asset to our project.
> As a result, I spend a lot of time improving it, as do many other
> community members. It hurts to see that some developers of core OSM
> infrastructure seemingly value these contributions so little. To me,
> people discussing and documenting our data model are a vital part of our
> community. So are software developers, of course! It's my belief that
> the project can only thrive if there's mutual respect between these groups.

+1

Best regards

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 9, 2019, 11:59 PM by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

> On 10/01/19 05:27, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
>
>> Jan 8, 2019, 10:33 PM by >> graemefi...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>
>>> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 23:36, Simon Poole <>>> si...@poole.ch 
>>>   wrote:
>>>

 I'm not convinced that we really want to model such a  
 level of detail in the first place, 


>>> Agree with you there!
>>>
>>> If the place is a shop=tyres, isn't that really all  that OSM 
>>> needs to say?
>>>
>> I am fine with tagging moredetailed info. But I would be equally 
>> fine with deleting any
>> outdated detailed info.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> & where do we stop with extreme details?
>>>
>> At levelwhere mappers are unwilling to maintain up to date 
>> information.
>>
>>
>>
>
> Some time ago I came across a section of road that, in OSM, used anold 
> bridge.
>  That bridge had not been there for quite some time, the new one was
> evident in imagery. 
>  
>  Should that section of road be deleted because 'no one ismaintaining 
> it'??? 
>
No, I was answering "where do we stop with extreme details".
 

>  It is a section of main highway in Australia. I think it needs tostay, 
> even if the detail is wrong .. there will still be a highwaythrough that 
> area. 
>
but detail may be deleted (for example if old bridge was 3D mapped it is fine 
to delete it and
map new one without 3D tagging)

>  
>  Shops too may come and go .. but physically the 'shop' structureremains. 
>  So what happens when 'no one is maintaining it'? It may get out ofdate 
> .. have incorrect information .. and when someone finds it theycan update 
> it. 
>
And during update they are free to delete outdated detail rather than updating 
it.

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Stefan Keller]

Hi

> Am Do., 10. Jan. 2019 um 02:33 Uhr schrieb Bryan Housel :
> > On Jan 9, 2019, at 8:23 PM, Stefan Keller  wrote:
...
> > communication. We all need patience with Wikis and it's curation and
> > users - like we e.g. have patience with when we're discussing things
> > about iD presets or iD functionality (like Copy which remained
> > unimplemented since 2013 - hint to Bryan :-))
>
> Stopped reading here and Unsubscribing.

Bryan, I'd like to thank you for your work. But this reaction is not
really constructive. You seem to prefer the github issue tracker of iD
(which you control) - but a github repo is not the only place for
discussions.

> > But namespacing is not the only means we have to group tags: we also
> > have Presets and Wikis documentation!

Under the impression of this discussion I'm considering to propose an
OSMF working group for data curation (especially tagging and presets).

:Stefan

Am Do., 10. Jan. 2019 um 02:33 Uhr schrieb Bryan Housel :
> > On Jan 9, 2019, at 8:23 PM, Stefan Keller  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As one of the originators of this thread I'd like to second that the
> > Wiki is important. It's not only a documentation tool but also a
> > communication. We all need patience with Wikis and it's curation and
> > users - like we e.g. have patience with when we're discussing things
> > about iD presets or iD functionality (like Copy which remained
> > unimplemented since 2013 - hint to Bryan :-))
>
> Stopped reading here and Unsubscribing.
> You are not funny, and I don’t need the stress that this mailing list brings.
>
> Good luck with tagging & Bye
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jan 9, 2019, at 8:23 PM, Stefan Keller  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> As one of the originators of this thread I'd like to second that the
> Wiki is important. It's not only a documentation tool but also a
> communication. We all need patience with Wikis and it's curation and
> users - like we e.g. have patience with when we're discussing things
> about iD presets or iD functionality (like Copy which remained
> unimplemented since 2013 - hint to Bryan :-))

Stopped reading here and Unsubscribing. 
You are not funny, and I don’t need the stress that this mailing list brings. 

Good luck with tagging & Bye 
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Stefan Keller]

Hi,

As one of the originators of this thread I'd like to second that the
Wiki is important. It's not only a documentation tool but also a
communication. We all need patience with Wikis and it's curation and
users - like we e.g. have patience with when we're discussing things
about iD presets or iD functionality (like Copy which remained
unimplemented since 2013 - hint to Bryan :-))

In addition I'd like to draw your attention to my three points
expressed in my original thread entitled "Values in
namespaces/prefixes/suffixes Considered Harmful - Or: Stop
over-namespacing and prefix-fooling". IMHO we're on a critical
crossroad because of the new-style namespaces (also favored by the
unique multiCombo functionality in iD among others):
1. How to combine concepts?
2. How to group (sub-)tags?
3. How to handle multiple values?
Namespaces are an attempt to all these.

But IMHO for handling groups (2), there's the Wiki (!) - and Presets.
And for handling multiple values (3) I'd still favor semi-colon
separated as long as possible.

As said, the currently growing over-namespacing and prefix-fooling is
detrimental to the OSM schema and turns key/value ad absurdum.
Regarding (2), namespaces are not meant to group values, but to group
attributes/keys! And regarding (3), pseudo-namespaces are not stored
in one bit, in contrary: those long tag tag strings blow up e.g. the
attribute storage in Vector Tiles unnecessarily.

I've quickly analyzed Switzerland and found e.g. following
pseudo-namespaces containing significant amount of Upper-Case keys
(which is a smell of being values smuggled in keys, since keys should
be lower or unsiginificant case): service:* but also currency;*,
payment:* and fuel:*.

Here once again some considerations.

Instead of this "a hodgepodge of different ways of tagging and
potential for 100s of keys" as Simon said:
  motorcycle:tyres=yes
  service:tyres:car=yes
  service:bicycle:tyres=yes
  payment:visa=yes
  payment:notes=yes
  payment:cash:CHF=yes

All of the above could or should be this:
  sells=tyres:motorcycle;tyres:cars;tyres:bicycle
  payment=visa;notes;cash:CHF

And as a last comment: The addr-namespace is a good example of namespacing!
  addr:city=Timbuktu
  addr:housenumber=1
  addr:postcode=111
  addr:street=Main Street

But namespacing is not the only means we have to group tags: we also
have Presets and Wikis documentation!

:Stefan

Am Do., 10. Jan. 2019 um 00:43 Uhr schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>
> On 10/01/19 10:13, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> > On 07.01.19 16:12, Bryan Housel wrote:
> >
> >> I encourage everyone to just disregard everything that’s on the wiki and 
> >> go by what taginfo says as far as how the tags are used and what the 
> >> accepted values are.
> > The wiki is an invaluable source for understanding OSM tagging, and I
> > use it all the time during mapping and when coding software that works
> > with OSM data.
> >
> > Taginfo is an awesome resource as well, and I use it almost daily, but
> > it cannot fully replace the wiki. It tells you that foo=bar has been
> > used thousands of times, but it doesn't tell you what that tag means¹.
> > It also doesn't tell you about the conventions for its use (default
> > values, directionality, lots of other essential details). Ultimately,
> > Taginfo isn't documentation – the wiki is.
>
> +1.
>
> Taginfo does not tell me what landuse=clearing is. It only tells me there is 
> some of use of it.
>
> There is no wiki page on it so there is no help there.
>
> The next thing to do is contact the mappers.. tried that .. one response told 
> me to go to another channel - did that, nothing worth while.
>
> Contact a mapper .. no response there either ...
> Best I can do then is use my brain to think about the words and the mapping 
> context to come up with what I think they meant by it.
> My conclusion is - if it is not documented on the wiki .. it does not exist.
>
>
> >
> > Besides documenting current tagging practice, the wiki is also a useful
> > tool for coordinating and spreading new ideas (even though the specifics
> > of the process can be controversial at times). If you're not a software
> > developer or one of a few highly respected community members,
> > discussions on community channels and wiki proposals are pretty much
> > your only good options to make your genius tagging idea known to the
> > world. Without this first step, that idea is unlikely to get enough
> > traction to even show up in Taginfo to a meaningful extent: Using the
> > tag yourself only gets you so far.
>
> The wiki also help differentiate between things that are close in appearance 
> to the casual mapper.
>
> Things like a netball court can be mapped as a basketball court, until you 
> can see the difference and that is on OSM wiki pages.
>
> >
> > For all these reasons, I consider the wiki a key asset to our project.
> > As a result, I spend a lot of time improving it, as do many other
> > community members. It hurts to see that some 

Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Warin]

On 10/01/19 10:13, Tobias Knerr wrote:

On 07.01.19 16:12, Bryan Housel wrote:


I encourage everyone to just disregard everything that’s on the wiki and go by 
what taginfo says as far as how the tags are used and what the accepted values 
are.

The wiki is an invaluable source for understanding OSM tagging, and I
use it all the time during mapping and when coding software that works
with OSM data.

Taginfo is an awesome resource as well, and I use it almost daily, but
it cannot fully replace the wiki. It tells you that foo=bar has been
used thousands of times, but it doesn't tell you what that tag means¹.
It also doesn't tell you about the conventions for its use (default
values, directionality, lots of other essential details). Ultimately,
Taginfo isn't documentation – the wiki is.


+1.

Taginfo does not tell me what landuse=clearing is. It only tells me there is 
some of use of it.

There is no wiki page on it so there is no help there.

The next thing to do is contact the mappers.. tried that .. one response told 
me to go to another channel - did that, nothing worth while.

Contact a mapper .. no response there either ...
Best I can do then is use my brain to think about the words and the mapping 
context to come up with what I think they meant by it.
My conclusion is - if it is not documented on the wiki .. it does not exist.




Besides documenting current tagging practice, the wiki is also a useful
tool for coordinating and spreading new ideas (even though the specifics
of the process can be controversial at times). If you're not a software
developer or one of a few highly respected community members,
discussions on community channels and wiki proposals are pretty much
your only good options to make your genius tagging idea known to the
world. Without this first step, that idea is unlikely to get enough
traction to even show up in Taginfo to a meaningful extent: Using the
tag yourself only gets you so far.


The wiki also help differentiate between things that are close in appearance to 
the casual mapper.

Things like a netball court can be mapped as a basketball court, until you can 
see the difference and that is on OSM wiki pages.



For all these reasons, I consider the wiki a key asset to our project.
As a result, I spend a lot of time improving it, as do many other
community members. It hurts to see that some developers of core OSM
infrastructure seemingly value these contributions so little. To me,
people discussing and documenting our data model are a vital part of our
community. So are software developers, of course! It's my belief that
the project can only thrive if there's mutual respect between these groups.

Tobias


¹ Taginfo actually does provide a definition, but that's because it
extracts them from wiki pages.





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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Tobias Knerr]

On 07.01.19 16:12, Bryan Housel wrote:
> we can’t use the same key `service=*` to contain both things like `tyres` (a 
> few thousands) and `driveway` (a few millions).  Sorry, but the 
> `service=tyres` has to go.

These two different meanings of 'service=*' would not need to coexist on
the same element, so it's not impossible to use the same key. I happen
to agree that it's not a good idea, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

Therefore, it makes me a little uncomfortable that this kind of change
would be promoted through iD, instead of convincing mappers to make an
active, informed decision to switch to a new tagging scheme. I've been
silent on this recurring issue so far because, well, most of your
decisions have actually been quite reasonable, and it felt a bit silly
to object based on purely hypothetical concerns. Also, I don't feel
strongly about vehicle services in particular.

But with great power comes great responsibility, if you forgive the
stale quote. And while I'm not opposed to doing some sanity checking
(i.e. not automatically supporting poorly thought out tags just because
they are common), I do feel that the default editor on osm.org should
generally only promote clearly established tagging styles.

> I encourage everyone to just disregard everything that’s on the wiki and go 
> by what taginfo says as far as how the tags are used and what the accepted 
> values are.

The wiki is an invaluable source for understanding OSM tagging, and I
use it all the time during mapping and when coding software that works
with OSM data.

Taginfo is an awesome resource as well, and I use it almost daily, but
it cannot fully replace the wiki. It tells you that foo=bar has been
used thousands of times, but it doesn't tell you what that tag means¹.
It also doesn't tell you about the conventions for its use (default
values, directionality, lots of other essential details). Ultimately,
Taginfo isn't documentation – the wiki is.

Besides documenting current tagging practice, the wiki is also a useful
tool for coordinating and spreading new ideas (even though the specifics
of the process can be controversial at times). If you're not a software
developer or one of a few highly respected community members,
discussions on community channels and wiki proposals are pretty much
your only good options to make your genius tagging idea known to the
world. Without this first step, that idea is unlikely to get enough
traction to even show up in Taginfo to a meaningful extent: Using the
tag yourself only gets you so far.

For all these reasons, I consider the wiki a key asset to our project.
As a result, I spend a lot of time improving it, as do many other
community members. It hurts to see that some developers of core OSM
infrastructure seemingly value these contributions so little. To me,
people discussing and documenting our data model are a vital part of our
community. So are software developers, of course! It's my belief that
the project can only thrive if there's mutual respect between these groups.

Tobias


¹ Taginfo actually does provide a definition, but that's because it
extracts them from wiki pages.

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Warin]

On 10/01/19 05:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Jan 8, 2019, 10:33 PM by graemefi...@gmail.com:

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 23:36, Simon Poole mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:

I'm not convinced that we really want to model such a level of
detail in the first place,

Agree with you there!

If the place is a shop=tyres, isn't that really all that OSM needs
to say?

I am fine with tagging more detailed info. But I would be equally fine 
with deleting any

outdated detailed info.



& where do we stop with extreme details?

At level where mappers are unwilling to maintain up to date information.




Some time ago I came across a section of road that, in OSM, used an old 
bridge.
That bridge had not been there for quite some time, the new one was 
evident in imagery.


Should that section of road be deleted because 'no one is maintaining 
it'???


It is a section of main highway in Australia. I think it needs to stay, 
even if the detail is wrong .. there will still be a highway through 
that area.


Shops too may come and go .. but physically the 'shop' structure remains.
So what happens when 'no one is maintaining it'? It may get out of date 
.. have incorrect information .. and when someone finds it they can 
update it.
This may get us a new mapper. Yes the map may get some abuse .. but it 
will get abuse anyway if the information is absent.


So I am for putting it in - even if it becomes stale.
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Paul Allen]

First, my apologies for sending out a quoted message with no response.  I
have slapped
my own wrist.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2019 at 20:01, Andy Townsend  wrote:

One of the problems with the wiki is that inherently "the last editor
> has the last say" - nuances felt by previous editors to be important can
> easily get lost.  Good wiki editors try very hard to avoid that problem;
> bad ones don't recognise it.  The question is - is there an
> alternative?
>

The only thing that springs to mind is a CMS like Drupal (or Joomla, or
Wordpress).  The history
and protection mechanisms may offer better visibility and fine control, but
those may also be
disadvantageous.  IMO, their visual editors are better (but that's
subjective).  The advantages
(if any) are probably too small to make the switch worthwhile.

So there's no real alternative that doesn't involve authoritarian control.
Apart from general
undesirability we don't have enough people "at the top" to handle the
workload.  And they
may not agree amongst themselves anyway.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Andy Townsend]

On 09/01/2019 19:03, Bryan Housel wrote:
It’s not documentation.  It’s just a bunch of prescriptive advice by 
random people.  Most of the people involved don’t even work on 
software.  They’re just really into tagging and arguing, and I don’t 
have time for it.




At its worst its that, sure - but it's not fair to denigrate the people 
who've put a lot of effort into trying to make it into good 
documentation (off the top of my head Harry Wood is just one example of 
some of the people making a real effort here; Wolfgang from higher up 
the thread is another).


I'm also not convinced about "most of the people involved don’t even 
work on software" - writing documentation is a very different skill to 
writing software, and I've met plenty of people who are excellent at one 
and are dire at the other (and that works both ways around).


One of the problems with the wiki is that inherently "the last editor 
has the last say" - nuances felt by previous editors to be important can 
easily get lost.  Good wiki editors try very hard to avoid that problem; 
bad ones don't recognise it.  The question is - is there an 
alternative?  Obviously there are things like the help site and taginfo 
that provide parts of what used to be provided by the wiki, but better 
(and I think that the de-emphasising of the wiki on osm.org that 
happened a while ago made a lot of sense) but I can't really think of an 
alternative for info such as "with this tag this is what people have had 
to think about over the years, this (compromise) is where we are now" 
and so on.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 8:04 PM Bryan Housel  wrote:

> It’s not documentation.  It’s just a bunch of prescriptive advice by random 
> people.  Most of the  people involved don’t even work on software.  They’re 
> just really into tagging and arguing, and I don’t have time for it.

Wow, you leave me speechless. Not the attitude that I expect from a
developer of one of the major editors of OSM. Developer of editors
should write software that supports the tagging schemas defined by the
mappers, not enforce their idea of tagging based on a design decision
they made for their software (as Simon pointed out before).

m

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Christoph Hormann]

On Wednesday 09 January 2019, Bryan Housel wrote:
> [...] Most of the people involved don’t even work on
> software.

Despite accurate critique of dysfunctional dynamics and developments on 
the wiki i smell a software development supremacist here.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 9, 2019, 8:03 PM by bhou...@gmail.com:

> Most of the people involved don’t even work on software.
>
I thatink that it is not a good minimal requirement 
to document existing tagging schemes or propose new ones.

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:39 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> Jan 9, 2019, 7:33 PM by bhou...@gmail.com:
> On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:18 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  > wrote:
> Jan 7, 2019, 4:12 PM by bhou...@gmail.com :
> And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki because it 
> contains so much wrong information and opinion, and I’m tired of having my 
> edits reverted. I just recently had another issue where we added a traffic 
> signal tag that was already used, and then someone edited the wiki to rant 
> about how iD is wrong and for people to not use the tag
> What is your username on wiki?
> 
> I expected it to be Bhousel but this description seems to not match 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions==500=user=Bhousel=0===
>  
> 
> Yes that is - pretty obviously - me. What it is that you are feigning 
> confusion about?
> For start, I see no edits related to traffic signals.


Yes, I did not edit the page.  (because I don’t care anymore)

Some people were upset that iD defaults normal traffic signals to have the tag 
`traffic_signals=signal`.  Here is an issue:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/5016 


M!dgard was mad that I closed the issue and so he started editing the wiki to 
say that iD is wrong
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:traffic_signals=1605351
 


Minh and another editor have tried to tone down his language.  He keeps putting 
it back.

This is one of the reason why I stopped caring about the wiki..

It’s not documentation.  It’s just a bunch of prescriptive advice by random 
people.  Most of the people involved don’t even work on software.  They’re just 
really into tagging and arguing, and I don’t have time for it.



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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 1:28 PM Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
(sorry, the headers are making me lose attribution here..)
someone:
> It would be nice to be able to store that info - it would allow search for 
> nearest shop
> selling motorbike tyres that would be automatic and take less than second
> rather than manual and take minutes (or hours if many close shop=tyres are 
> not selling them)
someone else:
> & where do we stop with extreme details?
Mateusz:
> At level where mappers are unwilling to maintain up to date information.

One reason that I'd tend to be wary about this level of detail about
businesses is that if it isn't widespread, it isn't useful. As soon as
it is widespread, the result is likely to be that OSM becomes a huge
repository for commercial spam of questionable quality and veracity. I
don't want to see a world where the businesses that are mapped in
detail are those that can afford to hire SEO firms and have armies of
sweatshop mappers trying to make sure they own the best keywords. (In
my more fevered imaginings, I can also see them vandalizing their
competitors' mapping, putting in totally bogus sells=* in order to get
you into the store to buy something else, and similar fraudulent
tactics.)

Business directories, chambers of commerce, and ad agencies, among
others, exist to support (and often to moderate) that sort of thing.
We don't need to take on the job.

(That said, I don't dictate to others what they may and may not map,
except that mapping things that aren't there is not acceptable.)

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 9, 2019, 7:33 PM by bhou...@gmail.com:

>> On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:18 PM, Mateusz Konieczny <>> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>> Jan 7, 2019, 4:12 PM by >> bhou...@gmail.com >> :
>>
>>> And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki because it 
>>> contains so much wrong information and opinion, and I’m tired of having my 
>>> edits reverted.  I just recently had another issue where we added a traffic 
>>> signal tag that was already used, and then someone edited the wiki to rant 
>>> about how iD is wrong and for people to not use the tag
>>>
>> What is your username on wiki?
>>
>> I expected it to be Bhousel but this description seems to not match 
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions==500=user=Bhousel=0===
>>  
>> 
>>
>>
>
> Yes that is - pretty obviously - me.  
> What it is that you are feigning confusion about?
>

For start, I see no edits related to traffic signals.

BTW, while "OSM Wiki is stupid, I should ignore it" is a feasible strategy for 
somebody
controlling one of important editors it is not going to work for a typical 
person. 

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jan 9, 2019, at 1:18 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> Jan 7, 2019, 4:12 PM by bhou...@gmail.com:
> And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki because it 
> contains so much wrong information and opinion, and I’m tired of having my 
> edits reverted. I just recently had another issue where we added a traffic 
> signal tag that was already used, and then someone edited the wiki to rant 
> about how iD is wrong and for people to not use the tag
> What is your username on wiki?
> 
> I expected it to be Bhousel but this description seems to not match 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions==500=user=Bhousel=0===
>  
> 
> 


Yes that is - pretty obviously - me.  
What it is that you are feigning confusion about?

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 8, 2019, 10:33 PM by graemefi...@gmail.com:

> On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 23:36, Simon Poole <> si...@poole.ch 
> > > wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm not convinced that we really want to model such a level of  detail 
>> in the first place, 
>>
>>
> Agree with you there!
>
> If the place is a shop=tyres, isn't that really all that OSM needs to say?
>
I am fine with tagging more detailed info. But I would be equally fine with 
deleting any
outdated detailed info.

I think that this two would balance well.


> After that, isn't it up to "you" to make a simple phone call, or look at 
> their linked website, to check if they sell motorbike or bicycle tyres?
>
It would be nice to be able to store that info - it would allow search for 
nearest shop
selling motorbike tyres that would be automatic and take less than second
rather than manual and take minutes (or hours if many close shop=tyres are not 
selling them)
 

>
> & where do we stop with extreme details?
>
At level where mappers are unwilling to maintain up to date information.


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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Jan 7, 2019, 4:12 PM by bhou...@gmail.com:

> And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki because it 
> contains so much wrong information and opinion, and I’m tired of having my 
> edits reverted.  I just recently had another issue where we added a traffic 
> signal tag that was already used, and then someone edited the wiki to rant 
> about how iD is wrong and for people to not use the tag
>
What is your username on wiki?

I expected it to be Bhousel but this description seems to not match 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions==500=user=Bhousel=0===
 

 
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Simon Poole]

Am 08.01.2019 um 23:55 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> ...
> With current tools there is no tag completion for the individual
> values in lists, while the alternative already works.
>
Value completion has for lists has woked since ages in Vespucci (you
normally would use the form interface where you just select an option,
but the conventional tag - value UI supports lists).


> It is also simpler for data consumers, and as long as you want to
> distinguish only yes/no you could get along with just one bit for storage.
>
That is nonsense as you have to store the key string in some form. In
practical terms any database will use a key-value store for such tags
with a number of associated issues.

Simon

>
> Cheers, Martin 
>
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Jan 2019, at 14:35, Simon Poole  wrote:
> 
> I'm not convinced that we really want to model such a level of detail in the 
> first place, but using a small set of common keys for facilities with similar 
> purpose has obvious advantages over a multitude of special purpose keys that 
> are difficult to discover.


I do not believe either that we would want to map generally at such level of 
detail, but I can imagine people being interested in a particular detail, e.g. 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/drink%3Aclub-mate (or e.g. postage 
stamps, or public transport tickets)
and for these few exceptions (things with sufficient supporters and interest to 
“take off”) I am not sure a generic tag with multiple values is better than a 
specific property. A drink:club-mate=yes tag is less inviting to tag the 
availability of milk, cherry lemonade or beer than a generic tag 
available_drinks=club-mate, which will most likely lead to long lists soon.

With current tools there is no tag completion for the individual values in 
lists, while the alternative already works.

It is also simpler for data consumers, and as long as you want to distinguish 
only yes/no you could get along with just one bit for storage.


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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 23:36, Simon Poole  wrote:

> I'm not convinced that we really want to model such a level of detail in
> the first place,
>
Agree with you there!

If the place is a shop=tyres, isn't that really all that OSM needs to say?

After that, isn't it up to "you" to make a simple phone call, or look at
their linked website, to check if they sell motorbike or bicycle tyres?

& where do we stop with extreme details?

As Martin put it

"or sells=tyres:white:motorcycle..."

sells=tyres:car:brand_a:black;brand_a:white_wall;brand_a:white_lettering:brand_b:black,,,

Then do we start on tyre sizes?

tyres:car:brand_a:195_65r15 for literally the 1000s (10s of 1000s?) of
variants that any tyre shop will carry?

Where does it end?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Simon Poole]

Inconsistent tagging is inconsistent tagging, don't think that is really
relevant for this discussion, inconsistent tagging schemes however are
on topic.

I'm not convinced that we really want to model such a level of detail in
the first place, but using a small set of common keys for facilities
with similar purpose has obvious advantages over a multitude of special
purpose keys that are difficult to discover.

Simon

Am 08.01.2019 um 13:55 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> Am Di., 8. Jan. 2019 um 08:31 Uhr schrieb Simon Poole  >:
>
> To hypothesize on some of the stuff floating around, obviously
> there is
> a desire to document exactly what kind of stuff a shop sells, so
> people
> have proposed stuff like
>
> motorcycle:tyres=yes
>
> service:tyres:car=yes
>
> service:bicycle:tyres=yes
>
> a hodgepodge of different ways of tagging and potential for 100s
> of keys.
>
> But it could be so simple:simply structure the value space.
>
> All of the above could be:
>
> sells=tyres:motorcycle;tyres:cars;tyres:bicycle;tools:cars
>
>
>
> or sells=motorcycle:tyres;car:tyres
> or sells=car_tyres;motorcycle_tyres
> or sells=tyres:white:motorcycle...
>
>
> what makes you believe there will be less hodgepodge when we shift
> more information into the values? Look at your own example, there's a
> standardization issue with plural (cars) vs. singular (motorcycle,
> bicycle). Freeform tagging always will bring us also a lot of variants.
>
> If we open the sells="long list" box the only thing that will help us
> maintain a minimum of oversight will probably be the 255 char limit.
> On the other hand I can already imagine people inventing abbreviation
> codes to cram more things into the values.
>
> I am not a CS person, and if the pros agree that overall, value lists
> are better than distinct properties, I will happily accept this, but
> currently I see issues with both. Inconsistent tagging can occur just
> as well in value lists.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 8. Jan. 2019 um 08:31 Uhr schrieb Simon Poole :

> To hypothesize on some of the stuff floating around, obviously there is
> a desire to document exactly what kind of stuff a shop sells, so people
> have proposed stuff like
>
> motorcycle:tyres=yes
>
> service:tyres:car=yes
>
> service:bicycle:tyres=yes
>
> a hodgepodge of different ways of tagging and potential for 100s of keys.
>
> But it could be so simple:simply structure the value space.
>
> All of the above could be:
>
> sells=tyres:motorcycle;tyres:cars;tyres:bicycle;tools:cars
>
>

or sells=motorcycle:tyres;car:tyres
or sells=car_tyres;motorcycle_tyres
or sells=tyres:white:motorcycle...


what makes you believe there will be less hodgepodge when we shift more
information into the values? Look at your own example, there's a
standardization issue with plural (cars) vs. singular (motorcycle,
bicycle). Freeform tagging always will bring us also a lot of variants.

If we open the sells="long list" box the only thing that will help us
maintain a minimum of oversight will probably be the 255 char limit. On the
other hand I can already imagine people inventing abbreviation codes to
cram more things into the values.

I am not a CS person, and if the pros agree that overall, value lists are
better than distinct properties, I will happily accept this, but currently
I see issues with both. Inconsistent tagging can occur just as well in
value lists.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Simon Poole]

Am 07.01.2019 um 16:12 schrieb Bryan Housel:
> ...
> On “both is OK”. the `service:vehicle` issue was because we can’t use the 
> same key `service=*` to contain both things like `tyres` (a few thousands) 
> and `driveway` (a few millions).  Sorry, but the `service=tyres` has to go.  
> A few thousand uses is not “established tagging practice”.  And I doubt that 
> that usage was ever discussed here or proposed either.  If it was, I missed 
> the proposal where someone said “lets put tyres in a tag already used 3 
> million times for something else”.  My “no” vote on such a thing would not 
> have mattered anyway.
>
> ...

This is not a given, your problem exists just as a consequence of iD
retrieving tag values from taginfo and how iD presets are designed.
Everything else (as in any other editor) definitely doesn't have an
issue with sub-tag keys using the same name as there is more than enough
context to be able to differentiate the different usages. For a new tag
on the other hand we have freedom to as we choose so there is no
specific reason to reuse keys if there is no a good reason to do so.

Generally I think that people are heading of in the completely wrong
direction, while I can understand the desire to be able to document
every single aspect of a shop or other kind of facility, as Stefan has
already pointed out, there are lots of issues with the over name spacing
down to breaking fundamental assumptions about OSM tagging (for example
having capitalized values in keys as in a recent hydrant tagging proposal).

To hypothesize on some of the stuff floating around, obviously there is
a desire to document exactly what kind of stuff a shop sells, so people
have proposed stuff like

motorcycle:tyres=yes

service:tyres:car=yes

service:bicycle:tyres=yes

a hodgepodge of different ways of tagging and potential for 100s of keys.

But it could be so simple:simply structure the value space.

All of the above could be:

sells=tyres:motorcycle;tyres:cars;tyres:bicycle;tools:cars

And please no decade old complaints about lists in tags, we have lots of
structured value tags that work just fine, and yes you could even
document that something is -not- sold in a structured fashion.

Simon




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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Technically it is both -- taginfo gets statistics from the OSM database,
but the descriptions, images, and "recommendations" all come from wiki -
e.g. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/building#wiki comes from wiki.

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 9:26 PM Bryan Housel  wrote:

> > On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > Doesn’t taginfo use the wiki as the source of tags that are listed?
>
>
> No, taginfo’s source is the actual tag data from the OSM database.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Bryan Housel]

> On Jan 7, 2019, at 6:01 PM, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> Doesn’t taginfo use the wiki as the source of tags that are listed?


No, taginfo’s source is the actual tag data from the OSM database.




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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2019 at 01:13, Bryan Housel  wrote:

>
> On “both is OK”. the `service:vehicle` issue was because we can’t use the
> same key `service=*` to contain both things like `tyres` (a few thousands)
> and `driveway` (a few millions).  Sorry, but the `service=tyres` has to
> go.
>

Hi Bryan

I've just created a new page for shop=caravan
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Shop%3Dcaravan, which i copied from the
shop=car page.

As such, it's also copied across the various service=* tags dealer /  parts
/ repair etc

Does this create a problem? :-(

More than happy to change it if it does, but what is the best / preferred
format?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Doesn’t taginfo use the wiki as the source of tags that are listed?

On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 6:55 AM Wolfgang Zenker 
wrote:

> * Bryan Housel  [190107 16:12]:
> > And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki [..].
> > If something is “not documented on the wiki” that means nothing because
> the wiki is not documentation.
>
> That sounds kind of weird, because the Wiki basically only exists to be
> used for documentation of the OpenStreetMap project. Care to tell us
> where you would expect to find documentation? And by documentation, I
> mean things like explaining concepts, how to do and not do things,
> examples, etc.
> Taginfo supplies only a tiny subset of what mappers need as documentation,
> so where to get the rest if not the Wiki?
>
> Curious,
> Wolfgang
> ( lyx @ osm )
>
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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 10:13 AM Bryan Housel  wrote:
> And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki because it 
> contains so much wrong information and opinion, and I’m tired of having my 
> edits reverted.

That's kind of upsetting. Asking as a near-outsider, do you suspect
that your edits are being shut down by some 'inner circle'? The
'closed inner circle' problem is what made me give up on Wikipedia - I
found that in the areas where I actually know something, all that the
privileged editors would accept was trivial changes like the
correction of spelling or grammatical errors. Or is it simply that
your information gets stomped on by legions of the clueless or
wrongheaded?

Both are disturbing, but the two problems would have very different
solutions. For the former, the only solution is political. For the
latter, perhaps edits would be more robust if expressed factually:
"The rule that iD currently assumes is: ..." rather than "the tag must
be used in THIS fashion." Descriptive rather than prescriptive
language tends to excite less the desire to wipe it out.

I will admit that I don't wikify nearly enough - and it's partly my
bad experience with Wikipedia that puts me off it. I just want to know
what I'm in for if I decide to mend my ways and explain more of what I
do.

> Anyway hope that clears up some of the confusion. If not - I’m sure we’ll 
> discuss these exact same issue again here in another 9 months anyway.

There are always new faces, even for the stale old arguments.
Sometimes they come with new insights, sometimes we simply have to
tread the same ground because there are people who haven't been here
before who have to be guided. None of us knows how to map the world,
and as we come closer to figuring that out, we wind up having to talk
things to death. Over and over. And I don't know a better way to do it
- gradually come closer to consensus. But yes, it's infuriating when
it happens.

You - the iD developers - are in a uniquely thankless position because
your application is so often the first thing a newcomer sees when
trying to contribute to the map. The decisions you make in the
templates become the newcomers' impression of "how things must be
done" - whether a genuine consensus exists or not. Which means that
everyone who has an opinion about tagging is eager to tell you that
you're doing it all wrong, and you have to guess as best you can what
consensus might eventually emerge.

So, let me thank you for braving that particular combat zone. Yeah,
"you're doing it all wrong." :-) But you're doing it, which is more
than I'm able or willing to take on.

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Wolfgang Zenker]

* Bryan Housel  [190107 16:12]:
> And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki [..].
> If something is “not documented on the wiki” that means nothing because the 
> wiki is not documentation.

That sounds kind of weird, because the Wiki basically only exists to be
used for documentation of the OpenStreetMap project. Care to tell us
where you would expect to find documentation? And by documentation, I
mean things like explaining concepts, how to do and not do things,
examples, etc.
Taginfo supplies only a tiny subset of what mappers need as documentation,
so where to get the rest if not the Wiki?

Curious,
Wolfgang
( lyx @ osm )

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Re: [Tagging] Facts and opinions

[Bryan Housel]

> Just recently the iD Editor maintainer added more multiCombo functions
> (like [3]) and presets key (like "service:vehicle" [4]). Both is OK
> per se, but the latter preset was undocumented on the Wiki, and
> obviously the iD Editor maintainer prefers namespaces over semicolons
> for handling multiple values - and both issues seem to be completely
> undiscussed!


Amazingly you squeezed 4 wrong things into two sentences.  Just to set the 
record straight:

On my “preference”, both namespaces and semicolons are fine, I don’t have a 
preference and iD handles both. 

On “both is OK”. the `service:vehicle` issue was because we can’t use the same 
key `service=*` to contain both things like `tyres` (a few thousands) and 
`driveway` (a few millions).  Sorry, but the `service=tyres` has to go.  A few 
thousand uses is not “established tagging practice”.  And I doubt that that 
usage was ever discussed here or proposed either.  If it was, I missed the 
proposal where someone said “lets put tyres in a tag already used 3 million 
times for something else”.  My “no” vote on such a thing would not have 
mattered anyway.

On “completely undiscussed”, we already discuss tagging extensively in public 
on the iD GitHub - because this is where issues with bad tags tend to manifest 
themselves.  The osm-carto project sees their share too.  I believe more people 
follow the GitHub projects than are subscribed to this tagging mailing list.  
I’ve also posted plenty of information on this mailing list but it seems that 
people don’t read it.  This is at least the third time we’re discussing this 
exact issue on this mailing list.

And on “the wiki”, I have basically given up on the OSM wiki because it 
contains so much wrong information and opinion, and I’m tired of having my 
edits reverted.  I just recently had another issue where we added a traffic 
signal tag that was already used, and then someone edited the wiki to rant 
about how iD is wrong and for people to not use the tag.  Where before, I 
thought the wiki was “not perfect”, now I’m of the opinion that it’s actively 
harming OpenStreetMap.  I encourage everyone to just disregard everything 
that’s on the wiki and go by what taginfo says as far as how the tags are used 
and what the accepted values are.  If something is “not documented on the wiki” 
that means nothing because the wiki is not documentation.

Anyway hope that clears up some of the confusion. If not - I’m sure we’ll 
discuss these exact same issue again here in another 9 months anyway.

Thanks, Bryan


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