Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
2014-06-23 12:41 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: I often found fireplace=yes. See also fire pit: leisure=firepit in the Wiki. Why use different words to say the same thing? basically it is not the same thing. The German Feuerstelle translates to fire pit, while fireplace translates to offener Kamin I agree that this is a false friend and many instances might be mistagged. Not sure if firepit should not better be fire_pit cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
As a native English speaker, I's only use fireplace for an indoor feature of a building: and a fire pit would be sunken into the ground, whereas a BBQ grill is a structure above the ground, either a portable metal one or a permanent brick one. __John On 23 Jun 2014 11:44, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: Can anybody explain the difference, because there seems to be a lot of confusion. I often found fireplace=yes. See also fire pit: leisure=firepit in the Wiki. Why use different words to say the same thing? I guess it was gain due to someome from Germany writing those Wiki pages... after looking a bit into it this is my understanding: Fireplace: A fireplace is an architectural structure designed to contain a fire. Fireplaces are used at the present time mostly for the relaxing ambiance they create. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireplace (Usually not used for BBQ?) Fire Pit: (Spelling already seems wrong) Outdoor, open to all sides http://img.diynetwork.com/DIY/2005/04/19/droc104_after_shot_05_lg.jpg Used for BBQ??? (Like is this a fire pit? http://www. grillplatzverzeichnis.de/images/Grillplatzbilder/ Grillplatz-NaturSportPark.jpg) BBQ Grill: -http://www.my-barbecue.com/content/images/thumbs/0002116_ barbecue-fixe-en-pierre-pr4220f.jpeg -http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/BBQ_Food.jpg Is there anything I'm missing? Maybe a template would be good for the Wiki to avoid confusiong in the future. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
a fire pit would be sunken into the ground Could that also sometimes (often?) be used for BBQ? What would you call this: http://www.grillplatzverzeichnis.de/images/Grillplatzbilder/Grillplatz-NaturSportPark.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
2014-06-23 14:35 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: a fire pit would be sunken into the ground Could that also sometimes (often?) be used for BBQ? yes, the most obvious use case would be BBQ. The thing in your example picture could be called fire ring, but the typological distinction fire pit vs. fire ring is about the shape / actual construction of the spot where you make your fire. We should not (IMHO) have this distinction on the first level (e.g. not leisure=fire_pit and leisure=fire_ring) because this seems too specific. Most users will not care for this distinction. (It could be a subtag for bikeshedders). If you look up the image search in your favorite web search engine you'll find lots of stuff like this classified as fire pit. Maybe fire site could be a suitable generic tag to be used in all circumstances. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
I'd call that a barbecue, as it's above ground. __John On 23 Jun 2014 13:37, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: a fire pit would be sunken into the ground Could that also sometimes (often?) be used for BBQ? What would you call this: http://www.grillplatzverzeichnis.de/ images/Grillplatzbilder/Grillplatz-NaturSportPark.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
I would agree with Martin and disagree with John there. I guess I have a broader definition of fire pit/ring as something that exists mainly to contain a fire on the ground, and which may or may not be used for cooking. I'd call the Grillplatz image a fire pit or ring. A fire ring could just be a ring of rocks on the ground. Portable metal fire pits are even commonly sold in the US for backyard use. (ie www.homedepot.com/b/Outdoors-Outdoor-Heating-Fire-Pits/N-5yc1vZc6na) This is typical of fire rings you'll find at many campsites in the US: http://albanyeatsblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/p1000817.jpg Regarding BBQ grill, the most common type of public grills in the US (especially in parks) are metal structures on sunken posts, like the examples here https://www.google.com/search?q=park+grilltbm=isch Brad On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 8:33 AM, John Sturdy jcg.stu...@gmail.com wrote: I'd call that a barbecue, as it's above ground. __John On 23 Jun 2014 13:37, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: a fire pit would be sunken into the ground Could that also sometimes (often?) be used for BBQ? What would you call this: http://www.grillplatzverzeichnis.de/ images/Grillplatzbilder/Grillplatz-NaturSportPark.jpg __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
2014-06-23 16:22 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: I would agree with Martin and disagree with John there. I guess I have a broader definition of fire pit/ring as something that exists mainly to contain a fire on the ground, and which may or may not be used for cooking. what about fire_site, would that be a suitable neutral / structure independent term which could avoid misinterpretation? Or is this too generic and won't imply any kind of dedicated structure (i.e. it would say that there is a spot where a fire had been / could be lit, but it won't say that the place is suitable to do so)? I somehow do agree with John that literally a fire pit should be dug into the ground. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
I get what you're saying, but I think fire_site would be too generic. What about using fire_ring instead? Whether it's dug into the ground or not, made of metal or stone, etc, these are usually circular. On the other hand, leisure=firepit has over 800 uses, while fire_site and fire_ring have zero. Rather than introducing other tags, would it be better to just better define and document what firepit should be used for? On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-06-23 16:22 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: I would agree with Martin and disagree with John there. I guess I have a broader definition of fire pit/ring as something that exists mainly to contain a fire on the ground, and which may or may not be used for cooking. what about fire_site, would that be a suitable neutral / structure independent term which could avoid misinterpretation? Or is this too generic and won't imply any kind of dedicated structure (i.e. it would say that there is a spot where a fire had been / could be lit, but it won't say that the place is suitable to do so)? I somehow do agree with John that literally a fire pit should be dug into the ground. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
2014-06-23 17:08 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: I get what you're saying, but I think fire_site would be too generic. What about using fire_ring instead? I would not suggest to do so, because not all places like this are circular, there are also square ones, and the problem would remain the same (a specific word describing a specific thing where indeed a broader use case is intended). e.g. http://www.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcooledeko.de%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F04%2Fdesign-im-hinterhof-originell-stilvoll-extravagant-feuergrube.jpgimgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcooledeko.de%2Fgartengestaltung%2Fcooles-design-im-hinterhof-gartengestaltung.htmlh=450w=600tbnid=HOOBNd0LKW9osM%3Azoom=1docid=JQFfg5yLz8cozMei=y0yoU8eSBsbMygPKgoGoBwtbm=ischclient=firefox-aved=0CCAQMygBMAEiact=rcuact=3dur=2127page=1start=0ndsp=24 On the other hand, leisure=firepit has over 800 uses, while fire_site and fire_ring have zero. Rather than introducing other tags, would it be better to just better define and document what firepit should be used for? the problem with this is, that even with very good definitions, as long as they contradict the literal meaning of the word, it will not work well and will come back sooner or later to this list here ;-) Calling something that is actually raised above ground a pit will probably not be liked by anybody understanding the word pit Maybe it could still work, e.g. the picture above was found searching for Feuergrube (literally translation for fire pit) and somehow could be called a pit even if the whole structure is raised above ground, as the inside (where you make the fire) is lower than the external wall. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
Rather than introducing other tags, would it be better to just better define and document what firepit should be used for? Probably the best idea. The way I see it is that the main information people would be interested in if they can make BBQ there (and maybe heating). Then it would also be great to be able to combine it with tourism=picnic_site and tourism=camp_site. Maybe the solution for that is simply to use bbq=yes amenity=fire_pit (we decide that it either implies bbq=yes or no and then you can use bbq=* if it doesn't) amenity=bbq_grill Do we want to be able to disinguish between a fire_pit and bbq_grill when tagging it on a tourism=camp_sit tag? Or would be bbq=yes be enough... thinking about it now it actually sounds like bqq allowed. Maybe use bbq=yes/no/fire_pit/grill/forbidden/permitted/official on those on tourism tags? And are we actually interested in fireplace=yes? I found some heating=fireplace wouldn't that make more sense? __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Fireplace, Fire Pit, BBQ Grill
I see how calling those firepits contradicts the *literal* meaning of the word, but just the same, there seems to be pretty widespread usage of the word in that way, at least in the US. If someone in the UK could comment about usage there, that might be helpful. Maybe it could still work, e.g. the picture above was found searching for Feuergrube (literally translation for fire pit) and somehow could be called a pit even if the whole structure is raised above ground, as the inside (where you make the fire) is lower than the external wall. Yes, it seems like the name firepit is as much an indication of the function the structure serves as the specific makeup of the structure itself. On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-06-23 17:08 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser brad.neuhau...@gmail.com: I get what you're saying, but I think fire_site would be too generic. What about using fire_ring instead? I would not suggest to do so, because not all places like this are circular, there are also square ones, and the problem would remain the same (a specific word describing a specific thing where indeed a broader use case is intended). e.g. http://www.google.it/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcooledeko.de%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F04%2Fdesign-im-hinterhof-originell-stilvoll-extravagant-feuergrube.jpgimgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcooledeko.de%2Fgartengestaltung%2Fcooles-design-im-hinterhof-gartengestaltung.htmlh=450w=600tbnid=HOOBNd0LKW9osM%3Azoom=1docid=JQFfg5yLz8cozMei=y0yoU8eSBsbMygPKgoGoBwtbm=ischclient=firefox-aved=0CCAQMygBMAEiact=rcuact=3dur=2127page=1start=0ndsp=24 On the other hand, leisure=firepit has over 800 uses, while fire_site and fire_ring have zero. Rather than introducing other tags, would it be better to just better define and document what firepit should be used for? the problem with this is, that even with very good definitions, as long as they contradict the literal meaning of the word, it will not work well and will come back sooner or later to this list here ;-) Calling something that is actually raised above ground a pit will probably not be liked by anybody understanding the word pit Maybe it could still work, e.g. the picture above was found searching for Feuergrube (literally translation for fire pit) and somehow could be called a pit even if the whole structure is raised above ground, as the inside (where you make the fire) is lower than the external wall. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
