Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
Overall - it seems that we reached some consensus here and there is no need for proposal, although this thread got lengthy. Please let me know in next couple of days if anyone thinks proposal would be better way. Jan - I wanted to use "maxstay" as it is more common than "stay" today. But, what you say makes sense (there is rule that tags should somehow map to conditional restrictions), and it can help differentiate with "maxstay" tag (as this is conditional restriction only). I will change my proposal to "stay". Andrew, I also had StreetComplete in mind. I will ping on GitHub issue (that you mentioned) with reference to this thread, I think this would be great addition to StreetComplete tasks! And expaned to "hours" instead of "h" in examples below too. I agree with Martin and Andrew about erroring on safe side - at the end of the day, it should not matter for data processors. Steve, Graeme - I would refrain of "scope creep" and not be involved in /consequences/ of not paying (towing, clamping etc.) here. Not saying this is not important, but this thread should be about "fee" (does this parking wants your money or not, to put it bluntly), not what happens if you don't pay or overstay. Same goes for payment/condition method - disc, gate... It should go into parking:condition. So, let me try to summarize. 1. If there is fee involved, tag it as: ``` fee=yes fee:conditional=no @ (stay < 2 hours)` ``` 2. If there is no fee involved, just park for free for some amount of time and who-knows-what bad things happen to you after that point: ``` fee=no maxstay=3 hours ``` Some specific examples from this thread to see if we cover them all: 1. Shopping mall pays after 3h: ``` amenity=parking access=customers fee=yes fee:conditional=no @ (stay < 2 hours)` parking:condition=ticket ``` 2. Supermarket in US that gives parking for free for 3h (no conditional fee): ``` amenity=parking access=customers fee=no maxstay=3 hours ``` 3. Disc in France that let you park for some time (no conditional fee): ``` highway=* access=yes fee=no parking:condition=disc parking:lane:both=parallel parking:condition:maxstay=3h ``` I will wait 2 weeks and will ping StreetComplete and adopt wiki to better clarify this conditional. Thanks, Branko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On 20.10.20 22:43, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I am not usually mapping this detail of parking fees, but from my understanding the above suggested tags would work and could be seen as covered by current state of tagging, no need for a proposal, just use it. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/fee%3Aconditional#values A) fee=yes fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h I fully agree with this tagging scheme, although it should be 'stay' instead of 'maxstay'. We're refering to the actual length of the stay here, not to a limit. It's the same as with e.g. maxspeed:conditional = 50 @ weight > 3.5 Here we use 'weight' here, not 'maxweight'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On 20/10/2020 16.34, Branko Kokanovic wrote: There are lot of parking lots on amenities (shopping malls...), where parking is free for customers, but only if you park for less than some specified time amount (let's say 2-3h), imposed by that amenity. After that period, you have to pay[1]. It is widespread where I live, but I would suspect this is not limited to my country only. FWIW, I believe this is common at many US airports. The first hour (sometimes only 15 minutes) is free, e.g. if you are just dropping someone off or picking someone up. To cover how this works, in case you didn't had joy of experience to use this - you usually press machine to get ticket upon entrance (or human hand it to you) and ramp opens to enter. When you exit, you present ticket to machine/human and lift gate/ramp opens if you stayed for less than specified amount of time. It will not open if time limit (of how long you stayed parked) is reached and in that case, you have to go back and pay first to some specific place. Basically the same where I've seen, except the payment kiosk is right next to the gate. Pull up to the gate; if you don't owe money, it opens; if you do, pay at the gate and then it opens. ...although I think I've seen the sort you describe as well. "Pay at the gate" seems typical for airports in my (admittedly limited) experience; the others have been, yeah, city parking garages. -- Matthew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
Couple of other versions of restricted parking Customer's only or else: https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0752577,153.4231834,3a,41.8y,100.24h,86.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swWpsJAcwaHpNkJm8KuoXFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 & customers only with a time limit per day! https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0901058,153.4504965,3a,15y,-3.36h,83.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJmzOQR0jhd-OEpbuRVxkog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 & this one, you get your wheel clamped & it costs $75 to have it released (No, it didn't happen to me, but I know someone that it did :-() Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
sent from a phone > On 21. Oct 2020, at 10:59, stevea wrote: > What I mean by towing_penalty=yes is that it is POSSIBLE that you might get > towed if you exceed the maxstay (or a semantic otherwise > interpretable-from-the-tags). What I mean by towing_penalty=no is that the > particular "enforcement method" of getting towed to make you think twice > about exceeding the maxstay isn't a chosen tool on this parking lot, and/or > there is no sign so indicating. around here you could always get towed when parking where you shouldn’t, of course the likelyness correlates with the amount of nuisance you create. I would find it hard to guarantee for some place that you won’t get towed despite of wrong parking. I see some point in indicating that they are menacing you with towing. Indeed there are also official traffic signs which do it to underline certain parking or stopping limitations. E.g. https://live.staticflickr.com/7647/26807112525_c70e2863f2_o.jpg Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Wednesday, 21 October 2020, Andrew Harvey wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 20:20, Philip Barnes wrote: > > > On Wed, 2020-10-21 at 20:04 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:45, Robert Delmenico wrote: > > > > Ballarat in Victoria has kerb side parking where the first hour is free. > > > > There is some more information available here: > > > > > > https://www.ballarat.vic.gov.au/city/parking/smarter-parking-ballarat#:~:text=Your%20first%20hour%20of%20parking,the%20Central%20Square%20car%20park%20 > > . > > > > > > The wiki is not the clearest on this > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Parking_conditions_.28terms.29 > > > > You can do `parking:condition:left=ticket` + > > `parking:condition:left:conditional=free @ (maxstay > 1 hour)` though not > > sure if that's the best, but the best I can tell from the wiki. > > > > disc is not defined, I'd never heard of the term before and > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking isn't that clear. It would be > > good if people using this would put a bit more detail on the OSM wiki of > > where it should be used. Is it only where the physical "disc" is used? Does > > it imply a fee or not, does it imply a maxstay? > > > > > > Parking discs used to be quit common in France, the Disque Blue areas were > > very common in towns where you needed to set the time of arrival on your > > > > disc and display it in the car. > > > > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 20:58, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < > tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > > > disc appears at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane > > > > with proposed tag a parking:condition:*:maxstay=2 h > > > > with * replace by left/right/both depending on side > > > > > So it's just plain old maxstay, but you need to mark your arrival time on a > device, could be paid or free. The only thing the tag adds over > `parking:condition:side:maxstay=2 h` is that it describes that you need to > use the disc device to record your time of arrival? > > This part was unclear to me if it should be used for any maxstay regardless > of if it uses the disk device or not. > Mapping the disc requirement is important as without the disc you cannot park. Not so much of a problem if it is common and everyone has a disc but a problem if you drive into Stranraer and end up driving out again because you don't have a disc. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Sailfish device ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 20:20, Philip Barnes wrote: > On Wed, 2020-10-21 at 20:04 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote: > > > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:45, Robert Delmenico wrote: > > Ballarat in Victoria has kerb side parking where the first hour is free. > > There is some more information available here: > > > https://www.ballarat.vic.gov.au/city/parking/smarter-parking-ballarat#:~:text=Your%20first%20hour%20of%20parking,the%20Central%20Square%20car%20park%20 > . > > > The wiki is not the clearest on this > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Parking_conditions_.28terms.29 > > You can do `parking:condition:left=ticket` + > `parking:condition:left:conditional=free @ (maxstay > 1 hour)` though not > sure if that's the best, but the best I can tell from the wiki. > > disc is not defined, I'd never heard of the term before and > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking isn't that clear. It would be > good if people using this would put a bit more detail on the OSM wiki of > where it should be used. Is it only where the physical "disc" is used? Does > it imply a fee or not, does it imply a maxstay? > > > Parking discs used to be quit common in France, the Disque Blue areas were > very common in towns where you needed to set the time of arrival on your > > disc and display it in the car. > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 20:58, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > disc appears at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane > > with proposed tag a parking:condition:*:maxstay=2 h > > with * replace by left/right/both depending on side > So it's just plain old maxstay, but you need to mark your arrival time on a device, could be paid or free. The only thing the tag adds over `parking:condition:side:maxstay=2 h` is that it describes that you need to use the disc device to record your time of arrival? This part was unclear to me if it should be used for any maxstay regardless of if it uses the disk device or not. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
disc appears at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane with proposed tag a parking:condition:*:maxstay=2 h with * replace by left/right/both depending on side Oct 21, 2020, 11:04 by andrew.harv...@gmail.com: > > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:45, Robert Delmenico <> rob...@rtbk.com.au> > wrote: > >> Ballarat in Victoria has kerb side parking where the first hour is free. >> >> There is some more information available here: >> >> https://www.ballarat.vic.gov.au/city/parking/smarter-parking-ballarat#:~:text=Your%20first%20hour%20of%20parking,the%20Central%20Square%20car%20park%20>> >> . >> > > The wiki is not the clearest on this > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Parking_conditions_.28terms.29 > > You can do `parking:condition:left=ticket` + > `parking:condition:left:conditional=free @ (maxstay > 1 hour)` though not > sure if that's the best, but the best I can tell from the wiki. > > disc is not defined, I'd never heard of the term before and > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking> isn't that clear. It would be > good if people using this would put a bit more detail on the OSM wiki of > where it should be used. Is it only where the physical "disc" is used? Does > it imply a fee or not, does it imply a maxstay? > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Wed, 2020-10-21 at 20:10 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:32, stevea > wrote: > > In California, a common (not quite frequent, certainly not always) > > arrangement at malls, supermarkets and other places with parking > > lots (large and small) is a sign that reads "you can park here for > > three hours, but after that we have the right to tow your car > > away." (Sometimes punctuated with 'video surveillance active' to > > make the point fairly direct and that "they mean business"). In my > > experience of driving-and-parking for many decades, I personally > > have never gotten towed (the few times I've gone over a time > > limit), I've never heard of anybody (that I personally know) > > getting towed, but I have seen the extremely infrequent tow truck > > towing a car that has likely been there a while — perhaps it was > > abandoned, used for illegal purposes or was otherwise a public > > nuisance. > > > > > > > > So, while that "moderately serious consequence" of getting towed is > > possible, it's rare. And, while this is not a "fee," it certainly > > turns into a fairly large one once the bottom-line-costs, tow truck > > driver and storage charges (per day, usually) are added together > > and paid to get one's car back from the impound lot. > > > > > > > > If you are writing a proposal, this is a reality in certain parts > > of the world the proposal should consider, if it wants to convey > > the full situation (on Earth, in cars, with humans, on parking > > lots). In short, what appears to be "simply" a fee can be fairly > > full-throated when it comes to describing the entire semantic > > richness of the situation. > > > > > > > > A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of > > something like towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road. > > I'd just use the regular maxstay tag, I think most places if you > overstay they can tow you. > > `fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h` says you're allowed by the > rules of the car park to park longer if you like, but you need to pay > a fee to do so. This is different to the rules saying you're limited > to 3hr and then issuing a fine or penalty for overstaying This rule is quite common at Motorway Service Areas, you can park for free for a couple of hours but if you wish to stay longer you need to pay or have your vehicle authorised (hotel guests for example). Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Wed, 2020-10-21 at 20:04 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote: > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:45, Robert Delmenico > wrote: > > Ballarat in Victoria has kerb side parking where the first hour is > > free. > > There is some more information available here: > > > > https://www.ballarat.vic.gov.au/city/parking/smarter-parking-ballarat#:~:text=Your%20first%20hour%20of%20parking,the%20Central%20Square%20car%20park%20. > > The wiki is not the clearest on this > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Parking_conditions_.28terms.29 > > You can do `parking:condition:left=ticket` + > `parking:condition:left:conditional=free @ (maxstay > 1 hour)` though > not sure if that's the best, but the best I can tell from the wiki. > > disc is not defined, I'd never heard of the term before and > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking isn't that clear. It would > be good if people using this would put a bit more detail on the OSM > wiki of where it should be used. Is it only where the physical "disc" > is used? Does it imply a fee or not, does it imply a maxstay? Parking discs used to be quit common in France, the Disque Blue areas were very common in towns where you needed to set the time of arrival on yourdisc and display it in the car. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disque_de_stationnement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:32, stevea wrote: > In California, a common (not quite frequent, certainly not always) > arrangement at malls, supermarkets and other places with parking lots > (large and small) is a sign that reads "you can park here for three hours, > but after that we have the right to tow your car away." (Sometimes > punctuated with 'video surveillance active' to make the point fairly direct > and that "they mean business"). In my experience of driving-and-parking > for many decades, I personally have never gotten towed (the few times I've > gone over a time limit), I've never heard of anybody (that I personally > know) getting towed, but I have seen the extremely infrequent tow truck > towing a car that has likely been there a while — perhaps it was abandoned, > used for illegal purposes or was otherwise a public nuisance. > > So, while that "moderately serious consequence" of getting towed is > possible, it's rare. And, while this is not a "fee," it certainly turns > into a fairly large one once the bottom-line-costs, tow truck driver and > storage charges (per day, usually) are added together and paid to get one's > car back from the impound lot. > > If you are writing a proposal, this is a reality in certain parts of the > world the proposal should consider, if it wants to convey the full > situation (on Earth, in cars, with humans, on parking lots). In short, > what appears to be "simply" a fee can be fairly full-throated when it comes > to describing the entire semantic richness of the situation. > > A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of something > like towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road. > I'd just use the regular maxstay tag, I think most places if you overstay they can tow you. `fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h` says you're allowed by the rules of the car park to park longer if you like, but you need to pay a fee to do so. This is different to the rules saying you're limited to 3hr and then issuing a fine or penalty for overstaying ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 19:45, Robert Delmenico wrote: > Ballarat in Victoria has kerb side parking where the first hour is free. > > There is some more information available here: > > > https://www.ballarat.vic.gov.au/city/parking/smarter-parking-ballarat#:~:text=Your%20first%20hour%20of%20parking,the%20Central%20Square%20car%20park%20 > . > The wiki is not the clearest on this https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:parking:lane#Parking_conditions_.28terms.29 You can do `parking:condition:left=ticket` + `parking:condition:left:conditional=free @ (maxstay > 1 hour)` though not sure if that's the best, but the best I can tell from the wiki. disc is not defined, I'd never heard of the term before and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_parking isn't that clear. It would be good if people using this would put a bit more detail on the OSM wiki of where it should be used. Is it only where the physical "disc" is used? Does it imply a fee or not, does it imply a maxstay? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
On Oct 21, 2020, at 1:43 AM, Peter Elderson wrote: > towing_penalty=no means your car is towed away for free? In Nederland, towing > always comes with a penalty, even if you don't want your car back. > > Maybe a tag for consequences should be introduced. I suggest or_else=cargone. What I mean by towing_penalty=yes is that it is POSSIBLE that you might get towed if you exceed the maxstay (or a semantic otherwise interpretable-from-the-tags). What I mean by towing_penalty=no is that the particular "enforcement method" of getting towed to make you think twice about exceeding the maxstay isn't a chosen tool on this parking lot, and/or there is no sign so indicating. (And as usual, if the tag is omitted, it isn't known to OSM, whether it is yes or no). or_else=cargone did make me laugh out loud; thank you for that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
towing_penalty=no means your car is towed away for free? In Nederland, towing always comes with a penalty, even if you don't want your car back. Maybe a tag for consequences should be introduced. I suggest or_else=cargone. Best, Peter Elderson > Op 21 okt. 2020 om 10:32 heeft stevea het > volgende geschreven: > > In California, a common (not quite frequent, certainly not always) > arrangement at malls, supermarkets and other places with parking lots (large > and small) is a sign that reads "you can park here for three hours, but after > that we have the right to tow your car away." (Sometimes punctuated with > 'video surveillance active' to make the point fairly direct and that "they > mean business"). In my experience of driving-and-parking for many decades, I > personally have never gotten towed (the few times I've gone over a time > limit), I've never heard of anybody (that I personally know) getting towed, > but I have seen the extremely infrequent tow truck towing a car that has > likely been there a while — perhaps it was abandoned, used for illegal > purposes or was otherwise a public nuisance. > > So, while that "moderately serious consequence" of getting towed is possible, > it's rare. And, while this is not a "fee," it certainly turns into a fairly > large one once the bottom-line-costs, tow truck driver and storage charges > (per day, usually) are added together and paid to get one's car back from the > impound lot. > > If you are writing a proposal, this is a reality in certain parts of the > world the proposal should consider, if it wants to convey the full situation > (on Earth, in cars, with humans, on parking lots). In short, what appears to > be "simply" a fee can be fairly full-throated when it comes to describing the > entire semantic richness of the situation. > > A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of something like > towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road. > > SteveA > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
Ballarat in Victoria has kerb side parking where the first hour is free. There is some more information available here: https://www.ballarat.vic.gov.au/city/parking/smarter-parking-ballarat#:~:text=Your%20first%20hour%20of%20parking,the%20Central%20Square%20car%20park%20 . Regards, Rob On Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 7:32 pm stevea, wrote: > In California, a common (not quite frequent, certainly not always) > arrangement at malls, supermarkets and other places with parking lots > (large and small) is a sign that reads "you can park here for three hours, > but after that we have the right to tow your car away." (Sometimes > punctuated with 'video surveillance active' to make the point fairly direct > and that "they mean business"). In my experience of driving-and-parking > for many decades, I personally have never gotten towed (the few times I've > gone over a time limit), I've never heard of anybody (that I personally > know) getting towed, but I have seen the extremely infrequent tow truck > towing a car that has likely been there a while — perhaps it was abandoned, > used for illegal purposes or was otherwise a public nuisance. > > So, while that "moderately serious consequence" of getting towed is > possible, it's rare. And, while this is not a "fee," it certainly turns > into a fairly large one once the bottom-line-costs, tow truck driver and > storage charges (per day, usually) are added together and paid to get one's > car back from the impound lot. > > If you are writing a proposal, this is a reality in certain parts of the > world the proposal should consider, if it wants to convey the full > situation (on Earth, in cars, with humans, on parking lots). In short, > what appears to be "simply" a fee can be fairly full-throated when it comes > to describing the entire semantic richness of the situation. > > A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of something > like towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road. > > SteveA > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
In California, a common (not quite frequent, certainly not always) arrangement at malls, supermarkets and other places with parking lots (large and small) is a sign that reads "you can park here for three hours, but after that we have the right to tow your car away." (Sometimes punctuated with 'video surveillance active' to make the point fairly direct and that "they mean business"). In my experience of driving-and-parking for many decades, I personally have never gotten towed (the few times I've gone over a time limit), I've never heard of anybody (that I personally know) getting towed, but I have seen the extremely infrequent tow truck towing a car that has likely been there a while — perhaps it was abandoned, used for illegal purposes or was otherwise a public nuisance. So, while that "moderately serious consequence" of getting towed is possible, it's rare. And, while this is not a "fee," it certainly turns into a fairly large one once the bottom-line-costs, tow truck driver and storage charges (per day, usually) are added together and paid to get one's car back from the impound lot. If you are writing a proposal, this is a reality in certain parts of the world the proposal should consider, if it wants to convey the full situation (on Earth, in cars, with humans, on parking lots). In short, what appears to be "simply" a fee can be fairly full-throated when it comes to describing the entire semantic richness of the situation. A tag like maxstay is a good beginning. An additional tag of something like towing_penalty=yes|no is a start down this road. SteveA ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
I have the opposite conclusion about fee=yes/no. These are free-to-use short-term car parks that have a clause to prevent people from 'misusing' them for office parking, etc. I would expect a free car park to be fee=no + a warning of charge after long stay. On Wed, 21 Oct 2020, 00:01 Andrew Harvey, wrote: > > I agree these are very common arrangements. > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 07:46, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: > >> I am not usually mapping this detail of parking fees, but from my >> understanding the above suggested tags would work and could be seen as >> covered by current state of tagging, no need for a proposal, just use it. >> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/fee%3Aconditional#values >> > > I agree, I wouldn't think it needs a proposal since I thought it's already > covered by the current :conditional and maxstay schemes. > > >> as a note, I believe we should "err on the safe side", i.e. better >> A) >> fee=yes >> fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h >> >> than B) >> fee = no >> fee:conditional = yes @ maxstay > 3h >> >> I think I would ignore the maxstay==3h condition, ;-) >> > > I agree, generally I think of these as paid parking, but with the > exception that if you stay for a short time it's free, as opposed to being > free parking but if you overstay the parking they charge you a fee (the > latter would be more like a fine for going over the limit, but rather this > is usually just a grace period for not needing to pay). > > I've came to the same conclusion in the past where I tagged > https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/23024004#map=19/-33.79813/151.18415 > > Taginfo says 9 things tagged like this already > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/fee%3Aconditional=no%20(maxstay%3C2%20hours) > + > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/fee%3Aconditional=no%20(maxstay%3C3%20hours) > > This is also the syntax I suggested for the streetcomplete quest at > https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/102#issuecomment-687761605 > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxstay recommends to always add > a unit (unlike maxspeed, maxheight, maxweight which all have default units) > and all the examples use expanded terms in English eg "hours" instead of > "h" or "hr". Any good data consumer would want to parse out all the > variants, so I wouldn't complain if you used "h" instead of "hours" but > would be nicer if there was only one way to tag it, so I'd prefer to stick > with the full term like on the wiki "hours". > > Unless there is disagreement we can just add this example to the wiki. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
I agree these are very common arrangements. On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 07:46, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > I am not usually mapping this detail of parking fees, but from my > understanding the above suggested tags would work and could be seen as > covered by current state of tagging, no need for a proposal, just use it. > https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/fee%3Aconditional#values > I agree, I wouldn't think it needs a proposal since I thought it's already covered by the current :conditional and maxstay schemes. > as a note, I believe we should "err on the safe side", i.e. better > A) > fee=yes > fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h > > than B) > fee = no > fee:conditional = yes @ maxstay > 3h > > I think I would ignore the maxstay==3h condition, ;-) > I agree, generally I think of these as paid parking, but with the exception that if you stay for a short time it's free, as opposed to being free parking but if you overstay the parking they charge you a fee (the latter would be more like a fine for going over the limit, but rather this is usually just a grace period for not needing to pay). I've came to the same conclusion in the past where I tagged https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/23024004#map=19/-33.79813/151.18415 Taginfo says 9 things tagged like this already https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/fee%3Aconditional=no%20(maxstay%3C2%20hours) + https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/fee%3Aconditional=no%20(maxstay%3C3%20hours) This is also the syntax I suggested for the streetcomplete quest at https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/102#issuecomment-687761605 https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxstay recommends to always add a unit (unlike maxspeed, maxheight, maxweight which all have default units) and all the examples use expanded terms in English eg "hours" instead of "h" or "hr". Any good data consumer would want to parse out all the variants, so I wouldn't complain if you used "h" instead of "hours" but would be nicer if there was only one way to tag it, so I'd prefer to stick with the full term like on the wiki "hours". Unless there is disagreement we can just add this example to the wiki. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
I think that in this case full blown proposal would be waste of time. Whatever maxstay/time/whatever keyword is used result should be fine. We just need to document it (add to examples list on conditional restrictions page, maybe also on fee page and parking page). I would just wait for whatever anyonehas convincing claim that maxstay is problematic and edit wiki in few days. 20 Oct 2020, 22:34 by bra...@kokanovic.org: > Hi all, > There are lot of parking lots on amenities (shopping malls...), where parking > is free for customers, but only if you park for less than some specified time > amount (let's say 2-3h), imposed by that amenity. After that period, you have > to pay[1]. It is widespread where I live, but I would suspect this is not > limited to my country only. I searched and didn't found any examples on wiki > and taginfo. We discussed this on Telegram channel a bit (thanks Mateusz > Konieczny for help!) and we brainstormed a bit and seems that most logical > way to put this would be with 1) conditional restriction, 2) keyword > "maxstay", already in use for timespans. So, something like: > `fee:conditional=no @ (maxstay < 2h)` > or > `fee:conditional=yes @ (maxstay > 2h)` > (on amenity=parking) > > Question is - how should I pursue this forward, since I never did any > proposal before? Do "conditional restrictions" also fall under regular > proposal process? I guess yes. Maybe I missed something and this already > exists? Mateusz started discussion on > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions#Tagging_free.2Fpaid_parking_depending_on_stay_time, > maybe we should just wait on comments there first? Is this "too small" to > bypass proposal? I guess answer is "never". > > Thanks, Branko > > [1] > To cover how this works, in case you didn't had joy of experience to use this > - you usually press machine to get ticket upon entrance (or human hand it to > you) and ramp opens to enter. When you exit, you present ticket to > machine/human and lift gate/ramp opens if you stayed for less than specified > amount of time. It will not open if time limit (of how long you stayed > parked) is reached and in that case, you have to go back and pay first to > some specific place. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
I am not usually mapping this detail of parking fees, but from my understanding the above suggested tags would work and could be seen as covered by current state of tagging, no need for a proposal, just use it. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/fee%3Aconditional#values as a note, I believe we should "err on the safe side", i.e. better A) fee=yes fee:conditional = no @ maxstay < 3h than B) fee = no fee:conditional = yes @ maxstay > 3h I think I would ignore the maxstay==3h condition, ;-) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Parking fee only after some time period
Hi all, There are lot of parking lots on amenities (shopping malls...), where parking is free for customers, but only if you park for less than some specified time amount (let's say 2-3h), imposed by that amenity. After that period, you have to pay[1]. It is widespread where I live, but I would suspect this is not limited to my country only. I searched and didn't found any examples on wiki and taginfo. We discussed this on Telegram channel a bit (thanks Mateusz Konieczny for help!) and we brainstormed a bit and seems that most logical way to put this would be with 1) conditional restriction, 2) keyword "maxstay", already in use for timespans. So, something like: `fee:conditional=no @ (maxstay < 2h)` or `fee:conditional=yes @ (maxstay > 2h)` (on amenity=parking) Question is - how should I pursue this forward, since I never did any proposal before? Do "conditional restrictions" also fall under regular proposal process? I guess yes. Maybe I missed something and this already exists? Mateusz started discussion on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Conditional_restrictions#Tagging_free.2Fpaid_parking_depending_on_stay_time, maybe we should just wait on comments there first? Is this "too small" to bypass proposal? I guess answer is "never". Thanks, Branko [1] To cover how this works, in case you didn't had joy of experience to use this - you usually press machine to get ticket upon entrance (or human hand it to you) and ramp opens to enter. When you exit, you present ticket to machine/human and lift gate/ramp opens if you stayed for less than specified amount of time. It will not open if time limit (of how long you stayed parked) is reached and in that case, you have to go back and pay first to some specific place. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
