Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Jul 29, 2017, at 11:22 PM, Tobias Zwick  wrote:
> 
> I find to tag the crop / produce of farmland is rather ineffective, as
> the actual crop being cultivated can and will change over the years or
> even multiple times a year. (See "crop rotation")

Most of the fields I tag with crop= haven’t changed much in a couple hundred 
years. The “orchards” of mulberry trees have disappeared as silk production 
dwindled, but the rice paddies that remain have been around for a very long 
time and grow exclusively rice for as long as the town has existed - the 
temples built in the 1500s and 1600s mean the town existed then, and they were 
completely dependent on rice. 

AFAIK, Rice paddies in Asia are usually not rotated nor used for anything 
besides growing rice. 

Even the corn fields here near my house in Japan produce feed corn and nothing 
else. They may be fallow for a year, but when they grow anything, it is corn. 

The greenhouses near my house grow nothing but strawberries. Only strawberries. 
Always. 

The greenhouses up the street grow eggplants every year. For the ten years I 
have lived here, that land grows eggplants and nothing else.  

The farms I visit in Nagano grow Wasabi. They are purpose built to grow wasabi. 
It is extremely difficult to grow. Nothing else could ever grow in the prepared 
gravel beds for them. 

~

There will always be examples of why a tag is bad - but that means you don’t 
use it. 


***but that doesn’t mean it is not useful to someone in another region or 
situation you are unfamiliar with*** 

It may be that we need to modify the tag to suit the needs of everyone, but 
killing a useful tag or removing a use case because your region or experience 
says it is not useful is not a great idea - unless you propose a new tag that 
the old tag would conflict with. 

Javbw 
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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 30 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> >
> > That is not really the current use of these tags.  Tea plantations
> > are for example quite universally tagged landuse=farmland and not
> > landuse=orchard.  Same for strawberries i think.
>
> Hmm, how did you get this information? In taginfo, trees=tea_plants
> and crop=tea there seem to be too few usages to show the
> combinations:
> [...]

These assessments were based on manual inspection and memory of such 
areas and how they are mapped in OSM.

As said before trees=* is mostly used for landuse=orchard, crop=* mostly 
for farmland.  This applies here too.

With such relatively low use numbers you can easily get the data via 
overpass and analyze this directly.

By the way most use of landuse=orchard + trees=tea_plants is by user 
LLAQWA and much of it is from the last week...

Yet another example showing why documenting tags on the wiki is 
important - If you look at http://taghistory.raifer.tech/ for crop=tea  
and trees=tea_plants you can see that trees=tea_plants was much more 
widespread than crop=tea until 2015 and then crop=tea took over, 
especially in 2016.  Neither of these tags is properly documented and 
while landuse=farmland + crop=tea is clearly the dominating tag for tea 
plantations at the moment mappers do not realize this tagging is 
widespread and use alternative taggings, just like they probably did in 
2015/2016 with crop=tea - mostly not because they distinctly want to 
use a certain tag (which would be fine) but because they don't know 
about the pre-existing more established tag.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Jo]

After reading the discussion, I also think using produce is a sound choice
for such preset.

Polyglot

2017-07-30 11:31 GMT+02:00 Tobias Zwick :

> >> - Farmland grows plants that are harvested as a whole (i.e. with
> >>   tractors), thus the actual crop can change during the years and
> >>   even several times within a year (see crop rotation) as after the
> >>   harvest, nothing is left from the plant. On satellite imagery,
> >>   they usually appear as an acre, meadow (when fallow) or densely
> >>   planted high grass/cereals.
> >
> > That is not really the current use of these tags.  Tea plantations are
> > for example quite universally tagged landuse=farmland and not
> > landuse=orchard.  Same for strawberries i think.
>
> Hmm, how did you get this information? In taginfo, trees=tea_plants and
> crop=tea there seem to be too few usages to show the combinations:
>
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/trees=tea_plants#overview
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=tea#overview
>
> > The wiki currently suggests tagging trees=* and optionally produce=*.  I
> > think that is a good idea.  Given the current use of tags i would
> > suggest not to recommend not to tag trees=* without community consensus
> > to abolish this tag.
>
> Well, as said, I am not suggesting to make trees deprecated, just
> arguing that the app should not add one and the same information twice
> but use just one (universal) tag. This tag seems to be "produce", people
> can always add more tags (i.e. "trees=*") later, even automatically,
> since that tag can be inferred from the other.
> But it cannot be inferred the other way round, since it has been
> mentioned that the tree-tag is not made for non-trees like
> "trees=banana_plants", "trees=strawberries" or "trees=oil_palms".
> (Even though it is currently used and documented that way, which makes
> its usage even more problematic because the documentation itself
> promotes misusage of the tag - perhaps in lack of a good alternative?).
>
> Tobias
>
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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Tobias Zwick]

>> - Farmland grows plants that are harvested as a whole (i.e. with
>>   tractors), thus the actual crop can change during the years and
>>   even several times within a year (see crop rotation) as after the
>>   harvest, nothing is left from the plant. On satellite imagery,
>>   they usually appear as an acre, meadow (when fallow) or densely
>>   planted high grass/cereals.
>
> That is not really the current use of these tags.  Tea plantations are
> for example quite universally tagged landuse=farmland and not
> landuse=orchard.  Same for strawberries i think.

Hmm, how did you get this information? In taginfo, trees=tea_plants and
crop=tea there seem to be too few usages to show the combinations:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/trees=tea_plants#overview
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=tea#overview

> The wiki currently suggests tagging trees=* and optionally produce=*.  I 
> think that is a good idea.  Given the current use of tags i would 
> suggest not to recommend not to tag trees=* without community consensus 
> to abolish this tag.

Well, as said, I am not suggesting to make trees deprecated, just
arguing that the app should not add one and the same information twice
but use just one (universal) tag. This tag seems to be "produce", people
can always add more tags (i.e. "trees=*") later, even automatically,
since that tag can be inferred from the other.
But it cannot be inferred the other way round, since it has been
mentioned that the tree-tag is not made for non-trees like
"trees=banana_plants", "trees=strawberries" or "trees=oil_palms".
(Even though it is currently used and documented that way, which makes
its usage even more problematic because the documentation itself
promotes misusage of the tag - perhaps in lack of a good alternative?).

Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Warin]

On 30-Jul-17 04:47 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:
How do you map individual plants with berries of patches with herbs? I 
need this for a smal garden with 1 Strawberry plant and 1 grape plant. 
For the apple and learn trees in the garden  I can use the tree tag 
with genus/taxon. Don't know what to use for the non-trees.


m



My present thought is to use a new key 'plant' ... this could encompass 
trees, shrubs, herbs etc.

However ..I'm still thinking about it.
It does not encompass fungi e.g. mushrooms.

The key 'genus' is not limited to trees... so you can use that for 
anything suitable e.g. landcover=grass


---
I'd a long way from mapping individual plants .. looking at an area of 
trees some 500 km long 200 km wide.




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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Marc Gemis]

How do you map individual plants with berries of patches with herbs? I need
this for a smal garden with 1 Strawberry plant and 1 grape plant. For the
apple and learn trees in the garden  I can use the tree tag with
genus/taxon. Don't know what to use for the non-trees.

m

Op 30 jul. 2017 01:13 schreef "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 30-Jul-17 12:04 AM, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your answers. It looks like it is pretty clear what is the
>> currently accepted tag for orchards then. As for the difference between
>> orchard and farmland - ignoring plantation for its missing documentation
>> and very rare use -, we identified the following key differences between
>> orchard and farmland which should be very clear:
>>
>> - In an orchard, plants are cultivated which are perennial, the plants
>>have continuance. Usually only the fruit of the plants are picked.
>>From satellite imagery, orchards usually appear as systematically
>>planted bushes/trees or rows of hedges separated by corridors (for
>>machines/workers)
>>
>> - Farmland grows plants that are harvested as a whole (i.e. with
>>tractors), thus the actual crop can change during the years and
>>even several times within a year (see crop rotation) as after the
>>harvest, nothing is left from the plant. On satellite imagery,
>>they usually appear as an acre, meadow (when fallow) or densely
>>planted high grass/cereals.
>>
>
> Some orchards are harvested using tractors too...  so that is not a
> deciding factor of orchard to farmland.
>
>
> Crop rotation can be tagged using multiple values
>
> e.g. produce=wheat;barley Farmers will follow market trends compatible
> with their equipment and farm soil/climate .. fairly consistent choices for
> them.
>
>
>> Apart from that, I generally agree with those that answered that they
>> would prefer "produce" - for the same reasons. Especially for things
>> like oil_palms, banana_plants, coffee_plants, vanilla_plants, the
>> various types of berries etc. the "trees" key does not really fit.
>>
>> Moving forward, would anyone think that "produce" is definitely the
>> wrong key to use for detailing on the produce/crop/type of orchards? (I
>> am not rallying to make the other two keys deprecated here, this is just
>> about which of the three keys the app should use to add a tag.)
>>
>
> The keys 'tree' and 'crop' are not universal to the output of 'farms' eg
> oysters, where as the key 'produce' looks to be universal.
>
> The key 'tree' is being misused to tag things that are not trees e.g.
> strawberry plants.
>
> A mapper sees plants in a field and they are worth mapping.
> But in terms of what comes out the farm gate, the produce key is best.
>
>
>> Greetings
>> Tobias
>>
>> P.S: Here is a list of different types of produce (of orchards aka
>> plantations) we identified. Currently mostly "translated" to the
>> "trees"-tagging:
>> https://github.com/rugk/crops-parser/blob/master/osmcrops.csv
>>
>
> The list is for the key 'crop'.
>
> And it contains some that could be better - e.g.  crop=walnut_trees ...
> the tree is not the crop/produce.
>
> It may be possible to have a more structured approach as the table hints
> at with crop=nut.
>
> For example
>
> produce=nut
>
> nut=walnut
>
> produce=vegetable
>
> vegetable=tomato
>
> The OSMwiki page on produce has some more thoughts .. (at least some are
> mine - use with caution!)
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce
>
>
>
>> On 27/07/2017 23:05, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>>>
 Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
 StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
 of orchards.[1]
 We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
 and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
 tagged.

 Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
 the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
 are in use: trees, crop and produce.

>>> Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.
>>>
>>> It tells you on
>>>
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=orchard#combinations
>>>
>>> landuse=orchard + trees=*: 82k cases
>>> landuse=orchard + crop=*: 4.9k cases
>>> landuse=orchard + produce=*: 2.9 cases
>>>
>>> and you can also see that genus=* and species=* are much more common
>>> than crop=* or produce=*.
>>>
>>> If you look at:
>>>
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/crop#values
>>>
>>> You can see that this tag is most commonly used for farmland.
>>>
>>> If you look down the list you can also spot 945 cases of
>>> crop=bananas,_papapyas,_mangos
>>>
>>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=bananas%2C_papap
>>> yas%2C_mangos
>>>
>>> which - if you follow the link to overpass turbo - turn out to all be on
>>> an island in Nicaragua in combination with 

Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Warin]

On 30-Jul-17 12:04 AM, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Thanks for your answers. It looks like it is pretty clear what is the
currently accepted tag for orchards then. As for the difference between
orchard and farmland - ignoring plantation for its missing documentation
and very rare use -, we identified the following key differences between
orchard and farmland which should be very clear:

- In an orchard, plants are cultivated which are perennial, the plants
   have continuance. Usually only the fruit of the plants are picked.
   From satellite imagery, orchards usually appear as systematically
   planted bushes/trees or rows of hedges separated by corridors (for
   machines/workers)

- Farmland grows plants that are harvested as a whole (i.e. with
   tractors), thus the actual crop can change during the years and
   even several times within a year (see crop rotation) as after the
   harvest, nothing is left from the plant. On satellite imagery,
   they usually appear as an acre, meadow (when fallow) or densely
   planted high grass/cereals.


Some orchards are harvested using tractors too...  so that is not a deciding 
factor of orchard to farmland.


Crop rotation can be tagged using multiple values

e.g. produce=wheat;barley Farmers will follow market trends compatible with 
their equipment and farm soil/climate .. fairly consistent choices for them.



Apart from that, I generally agree with those that answered that they
would prefer "produce" - for the same reasons. Especially for things
like oil_palms, banana_plants, coffee_plants, vanilla_plants, the
various types of berries etc. the "trees" key does not really fit.

Moving forward, would anyone think that "produce" is definitely the
wrong key to use for detailing on the produce/crop/type of orchards? (I
am not rallying to make the other two keys deprecated here, this is just
about which of the three keys the app should use to add a tag.)


The keys 'tree' and 'crop' are not universal to the output of 'farms' eg 
oysters, where as the key 'produce' looks to be universal.

The key 'tree' is being misused to tag things that are not trees e.g. 
strawberry plants.

A mapper sees plants in a field and they are worth mapping.
But in terms of what comes out the farm gate, the produce key is best.



Greetings
Tobias

P.S: Here is a list of different types of produce (of orchards aka
plantations) we identified. Currently mostly "translated" to the
"trees"-tagging:
https://github.com/rugk/crops-parser/blob/master/osmcrops.csv


The list is for the key 'crop'.

And it contains some that could be better - e.g.  crop=walnut_trees ... the 
tree is not the crop/produce.

It may be possible to have a more structured approach as the table hints at 
with crop=nut.

For example

produce=nut

nut=walnut

produce=vegetable

vegetable=tomato

The OSMwiki page on produce has some more thoughts .. (at least some are mine - 
use with caution!)

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce




On 27/07/2017 23:05, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
of orchards.[1]
We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
tagged.

Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
are in use: trees, crop and produce.

Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.

It tells you on

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=orchard#combinations

landuse=orchard + trees=*: 82k cases
landuse=orchard + crop=*: 4.9k cases
landuse=orchard + produce=*: 2.9 cases

and you can also see that genus=* and species=* are much more common
than crop=* or produce=*.

If you look at:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/crop#values

You can see that this tag is most commonly used for farmland.

If you look down the list you can also spot 945 cases of
crop=bananas,_papapyas,_mangos

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=bananas%2C_papapyas%2C_mangos

which - if you follow the link to overpass turbo - turn out to all be on
an island in Nicaragua in combination with landuse=orchard.

Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown
in an orchard.

Note the wiki is currently fairly unclear about the separation between
landuse=orchard and landuse=farmland.  On

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Alanduse%3Dorchard

it suggests landuse=plantation for fruit bushes which links to
landuse=plant_nursery which is clearly unsuited for this purpose.  This
seriously needs clarification.



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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 29 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Thanks for your answers. It looks like it is pretty clear what is the
> currently accepted tag for orchards then. As for the difference
> between orchard and farmland - ignoring plantation for its missing
> documentation and very rare use -, we identified the following key
> differences between orchard and farmland which should be very clear:
>
> - In an orchard, plants are cultivated which are perennial, the
> plants have continuance. Usually only the fruit of the plants are
> picked. From satellite imagery, orchards usually appear as
> systematically planted bushes/trees or rows of hedges separated by
> corridors (for machines/workers)
>
> - Farmland grows plants that are harvested as a whole (i.e. with
>   tractors), thus the actual crop can change during the years and
>   even several times within a year (see crop rotation) as after the
>   harvest, nothing is left from the plant. On satellite imagery,
>   they usually appear as an acre, meadow (when fallow) or densely
>   planted high grass/cereals.

That is not really the current use of these tags.  Tea plantations are 
for example quite universally tagged landuse=farmland and not 
landuse=orchard.  Same for strawberries i think.

The practiced use is orchard is mostly for woody, permanent plants 
(trees or scrubs) grown for their fruits/nuts.  This is in individual 
cases (like cork) extended to trees grown for other purposes but not 
for forestry.  Notable exception is grapes (which is not currently 
documented as an exception on the tag page for landuse=orchard by the 
way).

> Moving forward, would anyone think that "produce" is definitely the
> wrong key to use for detailing on the produce/crop/type of orchards?
> (I am not rallying to make the other two keys deprecated here, this
> is just about which of the three keys the app should use to add a
> tag.)

The wiki currently suggests tagging trees=* and optionally produce=*.  I 
think that is a good idea.  Given the current use of tags i would 
suggest not to recommend not to tag trees=* without community consensus 
to abolish this tag.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Tobias Zwick]

I find to tag the crop / produce of farmland is rather ineffective, as
the actual crop being cultivated can and will change over the years or
even multiple times a year. (See "crop rotation")

The only place where it makes sense to specify the production in my
opinion, are plantation where perennial plants are grown (orchards in my
definition).

> From trees you can get some fruits, but it is once in a while, the
> crop is only once per year, and only if you get lucky, some years
> there is nothing, depending on wheather conditions.

Not sure if I can follow this line of thought. If bad weather may affect
the harvest of i.e. cherries, then the same weather can affect the
harvest of cereals. But crop/produce doesn't say anything about the
quantity of production. If the year was bad, there will only be few
cherries. Doesn't change the fact that this orchard produces cherries.

Tobias


On 28/07/2017 16:31, Paul Desgranges wrote:
> Hello 
> Orchards contain trees and this is what can be seen on landscape, if you
> do a survey. 
> 
> From trees you can get some fruits, but it is once in a while, the crop
> is only once per year, and only if you get lucky, some years there is
> nothing, depending on wheather conditions. 
> 
> Therefore the tag 'trees' seems better to me. 
> 
> The farm produces something, and the tag 'produce' seems better (to me)
> for a farm than for an 'orchard'. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Le 28 juil. 2017 1:44 AM, "Dave Swarthout"  > a écrit :
> 
> Agree with Warin, who wrote:
> 
> Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like
> potatoes, these are not trees.
> The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not
> good. They are NOT trees!
> Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
> Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves
> the farm (or orchard).
> These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or
> crop=milk make no sense.
> Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...
> 
> +1   
> If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
> > wrote:
> 
> On 28-Jul-17 07:05 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> 
> On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> 
> Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of
> letting users of
> StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap,
> specify the produce
> of orchards.[1]
> We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on
> orchards [2]
> and are now at the point where we need to decide how
> these should be
> tagged.
> 
> Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to
> describe basically
> the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is
> deprecated, all
> are in use: trees, crop and produce.
> 
> Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most
> commonly used.
> 
> 
> The frequency of use can be influenced by;
> 
> the date of the tags creation - the earlier a tag is created the
> more use it can have over a 'better' tag created later
> 
> the pre-sets of editors - these can be the opinion of one person.
> 
> I would not place too much importance on the amount of use by
> itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag
> what is grown
> in an orchard.
> 
> 
> 
> Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things
> like potatoes, these are not trees.
> 
> The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is
> not good. They are NOT trees!
> 
> Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
> 
> Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what
> leaves the farm (or orchard).
> These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk
> or crop=milk make no sense.
> Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...
> 
> If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Tobias Zwick]

Thanks for your answers. It looks like it is pretty clear what is the
currently accepted tag for orchards then. As for the difference between
orchard and farmland - ignoring plantation for its missing documentation
and very rare use -, we identified the following key differences between
orchard and farmland which should be very clear:

- In an orchard, plants are cultivated which are perennial, the plants
  have continuance. Usually only the fruit of the plants are picked.
  From satellite imagery, orchards usually appear as systematically
  planted bushes/trees or rows of hedges separated by corridors (for
  machines/workers)

- Farmland grows plants that are harvested as a whole (i.e. with
  tractors), thus the actual crop can change during the years and
  even several times within a year (see crop rotation) as after the
  harvest, nothing is left from the plant. On satellite imagery,
  they usually appear as an acre, meadow (when fallow) or densely
  planted high grass/cereals.

Apart from that, I generally agree with those that answered that they
would prefer "produce" - for the same reasons. Especially for things
like oil_palms, banana_plants, coffee_plants, vanilla_plants, the
various types of berries etc. the "trees" key does not really fit.

Moving forward, would anyone think that "produce" is definitely the
wrong key to use for detailing on the produce/crop/type of orchards? (I
am not rallying to make the other two keys deprecated here, this is just
about which of the three keys the app should use to add a tag.)

Greetings
Tobias

P.S: Here is a list of different types of produce (of orchards aka
plantations) we identified. Currently mostly "translated" to the
"trees"-tagging:
https://github.com/rugk/crops-parser/blob/master/osmcrops.csv

On 27/07/2017 23:05, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>>
>> Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
>> StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
>> of orchards.[1]
>> We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
>> and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
>> tagged.
>>
>> Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
>> the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
>> are in use: trees, crop and produce.
> 
> Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.
> 
> It tells you on
> 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=orchard#combinations
> 
> landuse=orchard + trees=*: 82k cases
> landuse=orchard + crop=*: 4.9k cases
> landuse=orchard + produce=*: 2.9 cases
> 
> and you can also see that genus=* and species=* are much more common 
> than crop=* or produce=*.
> 
> If you look at:
> 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/crop#values
> 
> You can see that this tag is most commonly used for farmland.
> 
> If you look down the list you can also spot 945 cases of 
> crop=bananas,_papapyas,_mangos
> 
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=bananas%2C_papapyas%2C_mangos
> 
> which - if you follow the link to overpass turbo - turn out to all be on 
> an island in Nicaragua in combination with landuse=orchard.
> 
> Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown 
> in an orchard.
> 
> Note the wiki is currently fairly unclear about the separation between 
> landuse=orchard and landuse=farmland.  On 
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Alanduse%3Dorchard
> 
> it suggests landuse=plantation for fruit bushes which links to 
> landuse=plant_nursery which is clearly unsuited for this purpose.  This 
> seriously needs clarification.
> 


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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[shane teonanacatl]

example: when you have cork oak, they produce cork and nuts for pigs (pata negra and so on) - but when only a tourist visit the area he cant decide what the farmer is earning: cork, nuts, cork and nuts or nothing (not used).

 

 

Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Juli 2017 um 16:31 Uhr
Von: "Paul Desgranges" <paul.desgran...@gmail.com>
An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <tagging@openstreetmap.org>, daveswarth...@gmail.com
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards



Hello 

Orchards contain trees and this is what can be seen on landscape, if you do a survey. 

 
From trees you can get some fruits, but it is once in a while, the crop is only once per year, and only if you get lucky, some years there is nothing, depending on wheather conditions. 

 

Therefore the tag 'trees' seems better to me. 

 

The farm produces something, and the tag 'produce' seems better (to me) for a farm than for an 'orchard'. 

 

 

 
 

 
Le 28 juil. 2017 1:44 AM, "Dave Swarthout" <daveswarth...@gmail.com> a écrit :




Agree with Warin, who wrote:

 
Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like potatoes, these are not trees.
The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good. They are NOT trees!
Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm (or orchard).
These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or crop=milk make no sense.
Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...
 
+1   


If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.




 
On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 28-Jul-17 07:05 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
of orchards.[1]
We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
tagged.

Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
are in use: trees, crop and produce.
 Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.
 
The frequency of use can be influenced by;

the date of the tags creation - the earlier a tag is created the more use it can have over a 'better' tag created later

the pre-sets of editors - these can be the opinion of one person.

I would not place too much importance on the amount of use by itself.

 


Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown
in an orchard.
 

Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like potatoes, these are not trees.

The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good. They are NOT trees!

Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.

Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm (or orchard).
These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or crop=milk make no sense.
Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...

If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.




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-- 


Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

 

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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Paul Desgranges]

Hello
Orchards contain trees and this is what can be seen on landscape, if you do
a survey.

>From trees you can get some fruits, but it is once in a while, the crop is
only once per year, and only if you get lucky, some years there is nothing,
depending on wheather conditions.

Therefore the tag 'trees' seems better to me.

The farm produces something, and the tag 'produce' seems better (to me) for
a farm than for an 'orchard'.





Le 28 juil. 2017 1:44 AM, "Dave Swarthout"  a
écrit :

Agree with Warin, who wrote:

Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like potatoes,
these are not trees.
The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good.
They are NOT trees!
Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm
(or orchard).
These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or crop=milk
make no sense.
Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...

+1
If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28-Jul-17 07:05 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>>
>>> Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
>>> StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
>>> of orchards.[1]
>>> We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
>>> and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
>>> tagged.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
>>> the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
>>> are in use: trees, crop and produce.
>>>
>> Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.
>>
>
> The frequency of use can be influenced by;
>
> the date of the tags creation - the earlier a tag is created the more use
> it can have over a 'better' tag created later
>
> the pre-sets of editors - these can be the opinion of one person.
>
> I would not place too much importance on the amount of use by itself.
>
>
>
>>
>> Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown
>> in an orchard.
>>
>
>
> Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like
> potatoes, these are not trees.
>
> The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good.
> They are NOT trees!
>
> Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
>
> Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm
> (or orchard).
> These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or
> crop=milk make no sense.
> Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...
>
> If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com

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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Dave Swarthout]

Agree with Warin, who wrote:

Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like potatoes,
these are not trees.
The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good.
They are NOT trees!
Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm
(or orchard).
These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or crop=milk
make no sense.
Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...

+1
If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 28-Jul-17 07:05 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>>
>>> Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
>>> StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
>>> of orchards.[1]
>>> We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
>>> and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
>>> tagged.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
>>> the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
>>> are in use: trees, crop and produce.
>>>
>> Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.
>>
>
> The frequency of use can be influenced by;
>
> the date of the tags creation - the earlier a tag is created the more use
> it can have over a 'better' tag created later
>
> the pre-sets of editors - these can be the opinion of one person.
>
> I would not place too much importance on the amount of use by itself.
>
>
>
>>
>> Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown
>> in an orchard.
>>
>
>
> Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like
> potatoes, these are not trees.
>
> The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good.
> They are NOT trees!
>
> Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.
>
> Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm
> (or orchard).
> These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or
> crop=milk make no sense.
> Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...
>
> If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Warin]

On 28-Jul-17 07:05 AM, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
of orchards.[1]
We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
tagged.

Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
are in use: trees, crop and produce.

Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.


The frequency of use can be influenced by;

the date of the tags creation - the earlier a tag is created the more use it 
can have over a 'better' tag created later

the pre-sets of editors - these can be the opinion of one person.

I would not place too much importance on the amount of use by itself.





Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown
in an orchard.



Looking at the wider application to farmland leads to things like potatoes, 
these are not trees.

The  use of the tag tree for things like strawberry plants is not good. They 
are NOT trees!

Other plants, such as 'shrubs' too are being tagged as 'trees' too.

Personally I prefer the key 'produce' as it does mean what leaves the farm (or 
orchard).
These is also no problem with produce such as milk - tree=milk or crop=milk 
make no sense.
Then there are palm trees that produce dates ...

If you want to keep it simple .. I think 'produce' is best.


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Re: [Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 27 July 2017, Tobias Zwick wrote:
>
> Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
> StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce
> of orchards.[1]
> We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2]
> and are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be
> tagged.
>
> Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
> the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all
> are in use: trees, crop and produce.

Taginfo is your friend to find out what tags are most commonly used.

It tells you on

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/landuse=orchard#combinations

landuse=orchard + trees=*: 82k cases
landuse=orchard + crop=*: 4.9k cases
landuse=orchard + produce=*: 2.9 cases

and you can also see that genus=* and species=* are much more common 
than crop=* or produce=*.

If you look at:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/crop#values

You can see that this tag is most commonly used for farmland.

If you look down the list you can also spot 945 cases of 
crop=bananas,_papapyas,_mangos

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/crop=bananas%2C_papapyas%2C_mangos

which - if you follow the link to overpass turbo - turn out to all be on 
an island in Nicaragua in combination with landuse=orchard.

Safe to say that trees=* is the dominating method to tag what is grown 
in an orchard.

Note the wiki is currently fairly unclear about the separation between 
landuse=orchard and landuse=farmland.  On 

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Alanduse%3Dorchard

it suggests landuse=plantation for fruit bushes which links to 
landuse=plant_nursery which is clearly unsuited for this purpose.  This 
seriously needs clarification.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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[Tagging] Produce tags for orchards

[Tobias Zwick]

Hey there

Together with Roland Krüger, I am in the process of letting users of
StreetComplete, a surveyor app for OpenStreetMap, specify the produce of
orchards.[1]
We did a lot of research on which plants are grown on orchards [2] and
are now at the point where we need to decide how these should be tagged.

Unfortunately, there are *three* competing keys to describe basically
the same things (for orchards). Neither of these is deprecated, all are
in use: trees, crop and produce.

I'd like to hear your opinion about which tagging would be preferable in
your opinion. As all three can be inferred from each other, I want to
use _one_ tag consistently to avoid adding duplicate information just to
satisfy all the different ways to tag the same thing.

So, the options are:

1. trees=apple_trees, trees=oil_palms, trees=raspberry,
   trees=vanilla_plants, trees=rubber_trees etc...

or
2. crop=apple, crop=palm_oil, crop=raspberry, crop=vanilla, crop=rubber
   etc...

or
3. produce=apple, produce=palm_oil, produce=raspberry, produce=vanilla,
   produce=rubber, etc...

Greetings
Tobias

[1] https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete/issues/368
[2] https://github.com/rugk/crops-parser

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