[Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Michael Patrick]

 > Seriously though (& not arguing :-)), "a semi-trailer truck poking out
of a
> roof. Pavement staining and tire marks from fork lifts" wouldn't really be
> enough to say definitely whether you're looking at a roof over an open
area
> or an enclosed building, would it? That truck could be poked out of the
> doors of an enclosed loading dock, & the forklift could be doing the
same?

Usually, no single thing will lead to a conclusion. The identification
'keys'
basically indicate the other things depending on the context one should
look for. Hey, it could be a short truck, too :-) Preponderance of evidence.
Which is why it's useful to use multiple imagery sources.

Bing and Google Maps are aggregators of imagery - they license it from
other companies, at some price, at various resolutions, and what shows
can change over time - urban areas get updated very frequently, not so
much when you get out into the sticks. Even this isn't an absolute, by some
freak of availability we observed a bear on the road of my brother's
property on the Front Range in Montana. Also, the orthorectification
can sometimes be crap ( adjusting for terrain, etc. )

> Yes, if you've got slanting or night time imagery that may help, but I've
> never seen it in the areas I map in :-(>

You can add your own sources to JOSM, the presets are the more or
less globally useful services. Sometimes, you don't need to actually
add it to JOSM to assist, like the building overhang issue. Our
county has phenomenal lidar point data available ( 6"), I can make out
the location of the picket fence on my front lawn. Our state flies
regular oblique photography to monitor coastal conditions, also.
There is an upfront effort of finding what's available, but once you
have the endpoints and sources for your area of interest, it can
make things easier.

For instance:
JOSM displaying the USGS 3DEP ( derived from Lidar surveys )
http://bit.ly/2Rjb8LO
- in some areas it has 1 meter resolution along with slope aspect, etc.
https://www.usgs.gov/news/new-elevation-map-service-available-usgs-3d-elevation-program
and for thermal ASTER ( Advanced Spaceborne Thermal Emission and Reflection
Radiometer)
https://bit.ly/2FoslNE - not great, it's a fairly old platform and varies
between 15 to 90 square
meters per pixel, but I had it handy.

> On the subject of clarity of images. Was mapping the other day (using iD),
> marking buildings in an industrial area. As I said, the photo's weren't
the
> clearest, but I was also peering through the purple haze of the mapped
> area=industrial, which certainly doesn't help matters either :-(

Yeah, we have 308 cloudy days a year. Which underscores the value of
having sources that have multiple times available. Leaf on and leaf off
is also useful. If Bing's blender picked a day when an inversion layer
was occurring, it's nice to pick another day. Night imagery is rare.

The gold standard for this is SAR ( synthetic aperture radar )
https://earth.esa.int/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/t/tsx-ng
but  it isn't really mainstream yet, may never be for the general
public for obvious military reasons. Many countries are launching these
platforms, though, so it may be like the 'fuzz' on GPS accuracy,
once everybody has it, they'll open it up.

Depending on your level of commitment, it's useful to have some
minimal skill with QGIS, just for these discernment purposes. Then
you can do things like pansharpening  (
https://www.geoimage.com.au/images/services/pan_sharp_bne_qb.jpg ),
contrast adjustment, etc. very simply just
by altering the layer transparency - tasks that aren't possible in JOSM.

Michael Patrick
Data Ferret
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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Tobias Knerr]

On 10.01.19 11:28, Allan Mustard wrote:
> My understanding of the 3D aspect of building:part is that if you draw a
> portion of a building using building:part you have to do the rest of the
> building using building:part as well or the whole building will not
> render in 3D, since 3D software is programmed to ignore the base
> building footprint if building:part is present, is that correct?

Yes, that is correct (according to Simple 3D Buildings tagging).

So if you want to represent the situation in question as a building with
two parts, you could draw a building:part=roof area for the roof, and a
building:part=yes area for the rest of the warehouse. Then surround both
of them with a building=warehouse area, probably re-using the nodes of
the building parts.

Some 3D renderers will attempt to figure out what the mapper might have
intended if this rule isn't followed. But that's undefined behaviour and
will vary considerably between programs, so it shouldn't be relied on.

Tobias

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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2019 at 13:10, John Willis  wrote:

>
> iD has a rough type hiding ability, “map data” icon on the right (“F” key
> shortcut), and has 12 categories of elements you can turn on and off. I
> keep boundaries turned off, for example -
>

That's it - thanks!

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[John Willis]

> On Jan 11, 2019, at 11:44 AM, Xavier  wrote:
> 
> JOSM you can use its filter capability to hide any elements

iD has a rough type hiding ability, “map data” icon on the right (“F” key 
shortcut), and has 12 categories of elements you can turn on and off. I keep 
boundaries turned off, for example - they are usually adjacent to ways I am 
working on and don’t want to accidentally join a node, nor do I want to ever 
edit them. if I try to move a node it does share, I get a dialog warning I am 
trying to modify a hidden object.

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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[John Willis]

> On Jan 11, 2019, at 9:34 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> Was mapping the other day (using iD), marking buildings in an industrial 
> area. As I said, the photo's weren't the clearest, but I was also peering 
> through the purple haze of the mapped area=industrial, which certainly 
> doesn't help matters either :-(

press “w” on the keyboard. toggles between the default “partial fill” view and 
Wireframe view.

I only map in iD, and leaning that helped a lot when mapping small details, and 
switching back to “partial fill” lets you see what tags are on ways and 
polygons.

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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Xavier]

On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:34:40AM +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
On the subject of clarity of images.  Was mapping the other day (using 
iD), marking buildings in an industrial area.  As I said, the photo's 
weren't the clearest, but I was also peering through the purple haze 
of the mapped area=industrial, which certainly doesn't help matters 
either :-(


Does anyone know of any way of making that disappear / clear away 
(apart from deleting the area, & re-creating it after doing the 
buildings etc, which is a hell of a lot of work :-()


I don't know a way with iD, but with JOSM you can use its filter 
capability to hide any elements (by filtering on tags) that you do not 
want to be visible for the task you are performing at that moment.


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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 20:57, Michael Patrick  wrote:

>
> Actually, you can, especially if you have imagery from multiple platforms
> at different times of year, or better yet, different times of day.
>
> Shadows are usually the primary clue. Partial obstruction of other objects
> in the scene is another - like a semi-trailer truck poking out of a roof.
> Pavement staining and tire marks from fork lifts. slopes of piles of
> material along walls. Footpaths in snow., or if snow accumulates on the
> roof. Stacked containers. If you have evening or night imagery, the light
> silhouettes cast through windows to the outside. The presence of HVAC
> equipment and ducting on the roof, and roof materials in general.
> Obscuration or disturbance / distortion of vapor plumes from vehicle
> exhaust or furnaces.
>
> All this falls under 'aerial photointerpretation'. The ones I mentioned
> above were from a WW II military training manual, some of the 'key' guides
> now are thousands of pages long.
>

Thanks Michael - you must access to much better aerial imagery than we do!
- it's sometimes hard to even make out the actual outline of the building,
let alone heat blooms! :-)

Seriously though (& not arguing :-)), "a semi-trailer truck poking out of a
roof. Pavement staining and tire marks from fork lifts" wouldn't really be
enough to say definitely whether you're looking at a roof over an open area
or an enclosed building, would it? That truck could be poked out of the
doors of an enclosed loading dock, & the forklift could be doing the same?

Yes, if you've got slanting or night time imagery that may help, but I've
never seen it in the areas I map in :-(

On the subject of clarity of images. Was mapping the other day (using iD),
marking buildings in an industrial area. As I said, the photo's weren't the
clearest, but I was also peering through the purple haze of the mapped
area=industrial, which certainly doesn't help matters either :-(

Does anyone know of any way of making that disappear / clear away (apart
from deleting the area, & re-creating it after doing the buildings etc,
which is a hell of a lot of work :-()

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[John Willis]

>> 
>> If you had street-level imagery that may change things?
> 
> As Graeme says - you cannot tell from satellite imagery.

on this particular imagery, I can tell because they are trucking distribution 
warehouses, which have a distinctive cantilevered roof that is easily 
discernible form imagery,such as this one: 

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/500728029 
 (with an attached roof)mapped on 
it

if it was just a storage warehouse for a random company, it would be 
impossible, but these are easy. 

> 
> building=yes on the whole lot of it. Maybe add a "note=warehouse? and part 
> building=roof, layer=1”?

we do have building=warehouse, an iD preset with it’s own custom icon. 

if the building and roof share nodes, and there is no driveway expected to be 
mapped under it, is the layer=1 necessary? 

>> 
> Or try to get UltimaSnorlax to fix them?

Thankfully, they are not slathering my area in mangled polygons and 
non-existent tracks anymore - I asked them to clean up their work, but they 
never responded. 

they did map some named POIs that were a good addition, but almost every single 
way and polygon they drew has to be erased or heavily edited - and they were 
prolific for a year or so. Thankfully they stopped mapping a few months ago. 
They were all about mapping for z10, and by z13-15 it looked like a toddler’s 
crayon drawing. I’d rather clean up their mess than discover another 300 track 
ways through rice fields that don’t exist, or waterways mapped as highways; all 
of them half-sharing nodes with each other and every building and waterway that 
happen to be near the bird’s nest of ways he was creating.

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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question... -> Area Selector JOSM plugin

[André Pirard]

On 2019-01-10 03:42, John Willis wrote:
I am tracing and repairing existing traces of warehouses in an 
industrial district.

On a slightly different but similar subject.
To do serious fast building tracing, one should use JOSM with Area 
Selector Plugin  and an 
orthorectified map such as PICC in geoportail.wallonie.be or 
basemap.at.  That goes, complete with auto-incrementing street number 
tagging, at the rate of one house per 5-10 sec, but needs occasional 
touch up with Improve Way Accuracy tool.
While doing that I also make lots of corrections to traces by other OSM 
editors with a 2, 5 m or more precision error.
This is partly because they trace roofs from aerial maps, which are not 
at ground location because the camera view and walls are slanted. But 
also the roads are affected by imprecision.
Orthorectification does an incredible job of putting that right, 
impossible to do by hand. It computes the slant angle in one place, uses 
it in another, uses shades on the ground etc. I've seen it detect in 
meadows banks (slopes) that were strictly invisible to the eye.

This raises a problem.
When meeting untagged buildings that have been coarsely traced 5-10 m 
away from their position, should they simply be erased and replaced in 5 
secs or should 20+ sec instead of 5 be spent for conflation?
I asked Paul to add conflation 
. He did it, but with no 
tag merging.
I suggested that Area Selector simply invoked Replace Geometry instead 
.
If you feel that conflation is important, please visit these pages and 
back these requests.
Many of the warehouses have large (3-6m) roofs over the loading dock 
gates, making the building appear bigger.


here is an example.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/494766956

if I am mapping this kind of warehouses, which should I:

- map the whole structure as a warehouse

- map on the building portion as a warehouse (as I have done)

- map the building as a warehouse and map an attached polygon as the 
roof (which I haven’t done yet).


I am going to spend the time cleaning up UltimaSnorlax’s bad polygons, 
I might a well draw them correctly the first time.


Javbw



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[Tagging] Quick Building tracing question..

[Michael Patrick]

 > I've just traced what I can see as the visible roof area &  called it
> "building", as it's impossible to tell from an overhead image what is
> enclosed building & what is only a roof over an open area?
> If you had street-level imagery that may change things?

> As Graeme says - you cannot tell from satellite imagery.

Actually, you can, especially if you have imagery from multiple platforms
at different times of year, or better yet, different times of day.

Shadows are usually the primary clue. Partial obstruction of other objects
in the scene is another - like a semi-trailer truck poking out of a roof.
Pavement staining and tire marks from fork lifts. slopes of piles of
material along walls. Footpaths in snow., or if snow accumulates on the
roof. Stacked containers. If you have evening or night imagery, the light
silhouettes cast through windows to the outside. The presence of HVAC
equipment and ducting on the roof, and roof materials in general.
Obscuration or disturbance / distortion of vapor plumes from vehicle
exhaust or furnaces.

All this falls under 'aerial photointerpretation'. The ones I mentioned
above were from a WW II military training manual, some of the 'key' guides
now are thousands of pages long.

Michael Patrick
Data Ferret







>
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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Allan Mustard]

My understanding of the 3D aspect of building:part is that if you draw a
portion of a building using building:part you have to do the rest of the
building using building:part as well or the whole building will not render
in 3D, since 3D software is programmed to ignore the base building
footprint if building:part is present, is that correct?

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 2:01 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 10. Jan 2019, at 03:42, John Willis  wrote:
> >
> > - map the building as a warehouse and map an attached polygon as the
> roof (which I haven’t done yet).
>
>
> I would do it like this, or maybe map everything as a warehouse and the
> roof as building:part
>
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Jan 2019, at 03:42, John Willis  wrote:
> 
> - map the building as a warehouse and map an attached polygon as the roof 
> (which I haven’t done yet). 


I would do it like this, or maybe map everything as a warehouse and the roof as 
building:part


Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Warin]

On 10/01/19 13:54, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:


On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 12:43, John Willis > wrote:


I am tracing and repairing existing traces of warehouses in an
industrial district.


I've recently been doing the same, John.

if I am mapping this kind of warehouses, which should I:

- map the whole structure as a warehouse


I've just traced what I can see as the visible roof area &  called it 
"building", as it's impossible to tell from an overhead image what is 
enclosed building & what is only a roof over an open area?


If you had street-level imagery that may change things?


As Graeme says - you cannot tell from satellite imagery.

building=yes on the whole lot of it. Maybe add a "note=warehouse? and 
part building=roof, layer=1"?




I am going to spend the time cleaning up UltimaSnorlax’s bad
polygons, I might a well draw them correctly the first time.


Yep! :-)

Or try to get UltimaSnorlax to fix them?



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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[John Willis]

Most of my imagery is at an angle, so I have to be careful to map the building 
footprint, but this also means I can easily see the roof overhang on most 
buildings, so it is easy for me to map most of them. 

If it was directly overhead, most of them are cantilevered roofs with very 
thick supports that are easy to spot protruding from the actual warehouse wall, 
so spotting the “roof” on most of these warehouses is pretty easy. 

Javbw


> On Jan 10, 2019, at 11:54 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  
> wrote:
> 
> as it's impossible to tell from an overhead image what is enclosed building


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Re: [Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 at 12:43, John Willis  wrote:

> I am tracing and repairing existing traces of warehouses in an industrial
> district.
>

I've recently been doing the same, John.

if I am mapping this kind of warehouses, which should I:
>
> - map the whole structure as a warehouse
>

I've just traced what I can see as the visible roof area &  called it
"building", as it's impossible to tell from an overhead image what is
enclosed building & what is only a roof over an open area?

If you had street-level imagery that may change things?


> I am going to spend the time cleaning up UltimaSnorlax’s bad polygons, I
> might a well draw them correctly the first time.
>

Yep! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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[Tagging] Quick Building tracing question...

[John Willis]

I am tracing and repairing existing traces of warehouses in an industrial 
district. 

Many of the warehouses have large (3-6m) roofs over the loading dock gates, 
making the building appear bigger. 

here is an example. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/494766956 


if I am mapping this kind of warehouses, which should I:

- map the whole structure as a warehouse

- map on the building portion as a warehouse (as I have done)

- map the building as a warehouse and map an attached polygon as the roof 
(which I haven’t done yet). 

I am going to spend the time cleaning up UltimaSnorlax’s bad polygons, I might 
a well draw them correctly the first time. 

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