Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
On 2012-12-03 20:27, Ole Nielsen wrote : BTW, I'm not sure how useful the wet tag (old style or new style) is. You will need some damn precise and detailed weather forecasts for a route planner to be able to use such information. And usually it is only fairly short sections of highway having such tags so the impact is minimal (and in my experience drivers pretty much ignore such signs anyway). answer from the wiki: The *maxspeed*=* http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed tag http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag is used to define the maximum legal speed limit http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Speed_limits for general traffic on a particular road, railway or waterway. Maxspeed is not a speed to time routes but a legal information. By not mentioning a lower speed than normal, the information is incomplete and liable to be called dangerous in some places where wet speed is justified. Even more so for :snow and/or :ice maxspeed. Speed to predict journey duration can be based on data recorded by some GPS manufacturers on some GPS devices of their customers. It can be very complicated, using location and time. The simplest tag would be speed:average. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
On Mon, Dec 3, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl wrote: I intentionally chose not to deprecate maxspeed:wet as I had the feeling that doing so might upset some people and I didn't want such minor issues to affect the voting process. Of course I will recommend to use the conditional scheme and hope we can make a recommendation to deprecate the maxspeed:wet tag if there is no strong opposition to do so. Of course It's not the first time I see such process : propose a new tag, do not say it would deprecate anything until vote is accepted (or - if you don't like vote : consensus is reached, or no more complains), wait few months, change the wiki from do not deprecate to recommend to deprecate, wait few months, remove recommend from the wiki to just deprecated. This remembers me the bus_stop and platform discussions. Or the second user account for imports. These are unfair and sneaky methods to change things in OSM. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
Of course
It's not the first time I see such process : propose a new tag, do not
say it would deprecate anything until vote is accepted (or - if you
don't like vote : consensus is reached, or no more complains), wait
few months, change the wiki from do not deprecate to recommend to
deprecate, wait few months, remove recommend from the wiki to just
deprecated. This remembers me the bus_stop and platform
discussions. Or the second user account for imports.
These are unfair and sneaky methods to change things in OSM.
Are you against changing things in general or do you like to always
cut off old schemes completely without legacy support?
Because the described way is about the best solution I could come up
with that both allows change and gives the crowd enough time to adapt.
The only thing that is missing is that the wiki changes should be
backed up by taginfo data to support the claim.
It even allows hardliners to keep tagging the old way indefinably.
('Deprecated' doesn't mean 'forbidden'.)
So: how would you change things in OSM?
Regards,
Chaos
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Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
2012/12/4 Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com:
Are you against changing things in general or do you like to always
cut off old schemes completely without legacy support?
Because the described way is about the best solution I could come up
with that both allows change and gives the crowd enough time to adapt.
The only thing that is missing is that the wiki changes should be
backed up by taginfo data to support the claim.
It even allows hardliners to keep tagging the old way indefinably.
('Deprecated' doesn't mean 'forbidden'.)
I somehow agree with both of you, it really depends on the case (how
intensively a tag is already used). It doesn't make any sense IMHO to
deprecate something like highway=bus_stop if 90% of all bus stops are
tagged like this (and btw. the public_transport platform version has
mostly disadvantages, needs more tags to end up with the same
meaning).
cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com wrote: Are you against changing things in general ... ? Not if the intent is clearly to deprecate an existing tag. I'm against liars writing in the wiki that they won't change any existing tags until their proposal is accepted. I agree that changing or deprecating existing tags is very hard in OSM, especially when the new tag is not a real improvement or reasoning behind. For instance, the highway=gate replaced by barrier=* or the highway=ford replaced by highway=* + ford=yes have been well accepted where highway=bus_stop by public_transport=platform is not. Trying to deprecate a tag is not a minor issue. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
Before we use some strong words lets take a look at the issue: according to taginfo maxspeed:wet is used 602 times. You may subtract one or two hundred as I added them. So we are talking about a tag that's currently used less than 500 times and without a known (at least I dont know one) application. As such a speed limit is quite common people either didn't care enough to tag it or maxspeed:wet was just a try. Also please don't forget that maxspeed:wet is up to this second completely undocumented. You (Pieren) are right if you say, that all things should be put on the table before voting. Put I also understand Ole, because if he would have written that maxspeed:wet should be deprecated I bet that a few people would have objected - people who have never used maxspeed:wet before or even heard about it ;-) As I already wrote: a significant number of maxspeed:wet are from me. So if this tag will be deprecated I have some additional work to do and retag them. But that's life: things change. Sometimes even facts change. regards, Martin 2012/12/4 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com wrote: Are you against changing things in general ... ? Not if the intent is clearly to deprecate an existing tag. I'm against liars writing in the wiki that they won't change any existing tags until their proposal is accepted. I agree that changing or deprecating existing tags is very hard in OSM, especially when the new tag is not a real improvement or reasoning behind. For instance, the highway=gate replaced by barrier=* or the highway=ford replaced by highway=* + ford=yes have been well accepted where highway=bus_stop by public_transport=platform is not. Trying to deprecate a tag is not a minor issue. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
2012/12/4 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Before we use some strong words lets take a look at the issue: according to taginfo maxspeed:wet is used 602 times. You may subtract one or two hundred as I added them. So we are talking about a tag that's currently used less than 500 times and without a known (at least I dont know one) application. As such a speed limit is quite common people either didn't care enough to tag it or maxspeed:wet was just a try. I am not sure if this is really a common maxspeed condition, but I think that 602 of this particular feature is not very few. But neither too much to ever change it ;-) Also please don't forget that maxspeed:wet is up to this second completely undocumented. it is documented, you get lots of hits in the wiki when searching for it, e.g. here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Advanced_access_tags http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Modifiers_for_access_tags You (Pieren) are right if you say, that all things should be put on the table before voting. I don't think that a vote in a certain direction does imply that you can never have a different opinion on the same topic in the future. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
On 04.12.2012 13:31, Pieren wrote: On Tue, Dec 4, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com wrote: Are you against changing things in general ... ? Not if the intent is clearly to deprecate an existing tag. I'm against liars writing in the wiki that they won't change any existing tags until their proposal is accepted. The intention of mentioning that a tag is not directly deprecated by a proposal is to avoid that people's votes will be used as the reason for deprecation. So we cannot say people have approved conditional restrictions, so it's already decided that maxspeed:wet is deprecated. But it is not a guarantee that the tag will never be deprecated. It just means that this is a _separate_ decision, i.e. we might decide to approve the proposal, but keep using the other tag nevertheless. However, in this case I think deprecation would be a sensible choice. Even as the author of Conditions for access tags, which iirc was the first proposal to document maxspeed:wet along with other such tags in 2009, deprecation would be fine with me. Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
2012/12/4 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Also please don't forget that maxspeed:wet is up to this second completely undocumented. it is documented, you get lots of hits in the wiki when searching for it, e.g. here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extended_conditions_for_access_tags http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Advanced_access_tags http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Modifiers_for_access_tags It is mentioned in a few proposals, but it is in no way properly documented ;-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
Quiet often if such a change is made (does not deprecate - recommend to stop using) it is by someone other than the original proposal author. Irrespective of this the proposal procedure is a RFC - Request For Change - process. What it does is to say hey guys, I think we should change this, if you agree vote for it and update any systems you have that may be effected. In this regard, I was pleased to see a proposal specifically for changing tag recommendations: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/drop_recommendation_for_place_name Rob ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
Hi all, What is the status of maxpeed:wet? Is it now deprecated in favour of maxspeed:conditional or is it a valid shortcut? Any opinions? Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
The conditional access restrictions proposal did not specify that this :wet tag suffix would be deprecated (in fact it stated quite the opposite). From a developers point of view however, it is beneficial if we use a consistent tagging scheme, which is what the conditional tag was designed to introduce. I would therefore suggest switching to the new tagging scheme, however I'll leave you to decide for yourself. As always the anything is better than nothing rule applies in this situation. Rob ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
Hi! Am 03.12.2012 um 20:27 schrieb Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl: I intentionally chose not to deprecate maxspeed:wet as I had the feeling that doing so might upset some people and I didn't want such minor issues to affect the voting process. Of course I will recommend to use the conditional scheme and hope we can make a recommendation to deprecate the maxspeed:wet tag if there is no strong opposition to do so. The reason why I asked was: will someone complain if I change maxspeed:wet to maxspeed:conditional when I encounter it? I don't think so but better safe than sorry and therefore I asked ;-) BTW, I'm not sure how useful the wet tag (old style or new style) is. You will need some damn precise and detailed weather forecasts for a route planner to be able to use such information. And usually it is only fairly short sections of highway having such tags so the impact is minimal (and in my experience drivers pretty much ignore such signs anyway). I guess the best answer to this is: 640 kB ought to be enough for anybody. ;-) I completely agree with you, but who knows what some clever people invent tomorrow. As I already have the information about those signs it doesn't hurt to put it into the database. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
2012/12/3 Ole Nielsen on-...@xs4all.nl: BTW, I'm not sure how useful the wet tag (old style or new style) is. neither am I You will need some damn precise and detailed weather forecasts for a route planner to be able to use such information. but getting the info from the sensors that it is raining might be realistic for car manufacturers / suppliers in order to warn you when speeding. Driving in a car around bad weather areas to arrive faster at your destination doesn't sound like a realistic scenario even if the forecast was darn precise ;-) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Status of maxspeed:wet
pOn 2012-12-03 20:27, Ole Nielsen wrote:/p pgt; BTW, I'm not sure how useful the wet tag (old style or new style) is./p pIn France the speed limit on motorways is 130 when dry and 110 when wet. I don't know what the legal definition of wet is for these purposes. I do know I would not like to be in a discussion with a French policeman about whether moist counts as wet or dry. One day someone might build a router with a checkbox for assume roads are wet./p pColin/p ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
