[Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Luca Sigfrido Percich]

Hi all,

first time I write to the list (after lurking for a while), so I introduce
myself. I am from Milano - Italy, I work for the municipality's agency for
environment and mobility, and we'we been working for the last months to
integrate our road graph with OSM.

Currently in Milano all tram tracks are mapped separately, so they are all
oneway and no way has both highway=* and railway=tram tags (apart from some
cases we're correcting).

Now, we would like to store the information wether a certain railway track
runs in a road sharing the same space with motor vehicles.

I am referring to situations similar to this one:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_Amadeo.jpg

Which is here on the map:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.470987/9.236118

I searched the wiki for a tagging or relation scheme, but found none.

I was thinking about a simple tagging scheme: tram=yes|forward|backward for
the highway, and road=yes for the railway.

>From the previous example (the picture points at the opposite direction of
the highway on which it was taken:

For the center way (road):

tram=yes (it's on both directions)

and on the two railways:
road=yes (the track lies on a road used by motor vehicles)

We could also user a lanes modifier:
lanes=3
lanes:backward=2
tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
tram:forward=yes

The tram tag should not be used for tracks which run separated from the
road (they are tagged with railway=tram).

The tram tag should go along with access tags, as we have lanes reserved
for trams and buses/taxis:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_xxii_marzo.jpg

So the center way (carriageway reserved to psv with two tram tracks in
shared space) would get tagged as:
access=no
bus=yes
taxi=yes
tram=yes

We could also think about a relation, type=tram_on_road, it could be useful
for sorting things out in complex multi-carriageway situations like this
one:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.49833/9.19607

but would also be more difficult for users to mantain and for clients to
consume.

Any suggestions / impressions?

Thanks!

Sig
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Volker Schmidt]

Ciao,

hai guardato come l'hanno fatto altre città che hanno tram su strada? Mi
vengono in mente:
Strasbourg, Muenchen, Karlsruhe, San Francisco, Basel,  ...

Cari saluti

Volker
Padova, Italy

On 6 February 2015 at 17:29, Luca Sigfrido Percich 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> first time I write to the list (after lurking for a while), so I introduce
> myself. I am from Milano - Italy, I work for the municipality's agency for
> environment and mobility, and we'we been working for the last months to
> integrate our road graph with OSM.
>
> Currently in Milano all tram tracks are mapped separately, so they are all
> oneway and no way has both highway=* and railway=tram tags (apart from some
> cases we're correcting).
>
> Now, we would like to store the information wether a certain railway track
> runs in a road sharing the same space with motor vehicles.
>
> I am referring to situations similar to this one:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_Amadeo.jpg
>
> Which is here on the map:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.470987/9.236118
>
> I searched the wiki for a tagging or relation scheme, but found none.
>
> I was thinking about a simple tagging scheme: tram=yes|forward|backward
> for the highway, and road=yes for the railway.
>
> From the previous example (the picture points at the opposite direction of
> the highway on which it was taken:
>
> For the center way (road):
>
> tram=yes (it's on both directions)
>
> and on the two railways:
> road=yes (the track lies on a road used by motor vehicles)
>
> We could also user a lanes modifier:
> lanes=3
> lanes:backward=2
> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
> tram:forward=yes
>
> The tram tag should not be used for tracks which run separated from the
> road (they are tagged with railway=tram).
>
> The tram tag should go along with access tags, as we have lanes reserved
> for trams and buses/taxis:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_xxii_marzo.jpg
>
> So the center way (carriageway reserved to psv with two tram tracks in
> shared space) would get tagged as:
> access=no
> bus=yes
> taxi=yes
> tram=yes
>
> We could also think about a relation, type=tram_on_road, it could be
> useful for sorting things out in complex multi-carriageway situations like
> this one:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.49833/9.19607
>
> but would also be more difficult for users to mantain and for clients to
> consume.
>
> Any suggestions / impressions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sig
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

Ciao Luca,

For an example of a road with many variations in how the tram tracks are
embedded, you can have a look at this stretch I mapped a few months ago:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/50.8601/4.3117

To indicate how they belong together, maybe a street or associatedStreet
relation makes sense?

Jo

2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :

> Hi all,
>
> first time I write to the list (after lurking for a while), so I introduce
> myself. I am from Milano - Italy, I work for the municipality's agency for
> environment and mobility, and we'we been working for the last months to
> integrate our road graph with OSM.
>
> Currently in Milano all tram tracks are mapped separately, so they are all
> oneway and no way has both highway=* and railway=tram tags (apart from some
> cases we're correcting).
>
> Now, we would like to store the information wether a certain railway track
> runs in a road sharing the same space with motor vehicles.
>
> I am referring to situations similar to this one:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_Amadeo.jpg
>
> Which is here on the map:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.470987/9.236118
>
> I searched the wiki for a tagging or relation scheme, but found none.
>
> I was thinking about a simple tagging scheme: tram=yes|forward|backward
> for the highway, and road=yes for the railway.
>
> From the previous example (the picture points at the opposite direction of
> the highway on which it was taken:
>
> For the center way (road):
>
> tram=yes (it's on both directions)
>
> and on the two railways:
> road=yes (the track lies on a road used by motor vehicles)
>
> We could also user a lanes modifier:
> lanes=3
> lanes:backward=2
> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
> tram:forward=yes
>
> The tram tag should not be used for tracks which run separated from the
> road (they are tagged with railway=tram).
>
> The tram tag should go along with access tags, as we have lanes reserved
> for trams and buses/taxis:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_xxii_marzo.jpg
>
> So the center way (carriageway reserved to psv with two tram tracks in
> shared space) would get tagged as:
> access=no
> bus=yes
> taxi=yes
> tram=yes
>
> We could also think about a relation, type=tram_on_road, it could be
> useful for sorting things out in complex multi-carriageway situations like
> this one:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.49833/9.19607
>
> but would also be more difficult for users to mantain and for clients to
> consume.
>
> Any suggestions / impressions?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sig
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Luca Sigfrido Percich]

Many thanks Jo!

Volker also suggests that I should see how things are mapped in other major
cities, and so I'll do.

So you confirm that there isn't an established way of expressing the
tram-in-road relationship?

The use of the street relation has been suggested by a fellow member of the
italian discussion group. It's not clear from the wiki, however, if this
relation can be used for associating railways to highways for a single road
segment (from crossroads to crossroads) or is meant for associating
everything which belongs to a single street (so all the railways and
highways which belong to the same street).

I'll investigate further.

Many thanks!

Sig


2015-02-06 19:26 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> Ciao Luca,
>
> For an example of a road with many variations in how the tram tracks are
> embedded, you can have a look at this stretch I mapped a few months ago:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/50.8601/4.3117
>
> To indicate how they belong together, maybe a street or associatedStreet
> relation makes sense?
>
> Jo
>
> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> first time I write to the list (after lurking for a while), so I
>> introduce myself. I am from Milano - Italy, I work for the municipality's
>> agency for environment and mobility, and we'we been working for the last
>> months to integrate our road graph with OSM.
>>
>> Currently in Milano all tram tracks are mapped separately, so they are
>> all oneway and no way has both highway=* and railway=tram tags (apart from
>> some cases we're correcting).
>>
>> Now, we would like to store the information wether a certain railway
>> track runs in a road sharing the same space with motor vehicles.
>>
>> I am referring to situations similar to this one:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_Amadeo.jpg
>>
>> Which is here on the map:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.470987/9.236118
>>
>> I searched the wiki for a tagging or relation scheme, but found none.
>>
>> I was thinking about a simple tagging scheme: tram=yes|forward|backward
>> for the highway, and road=yes for the railway.
>>
>> From the previous example (the picture points at the opposite direction
>> of the highway on which it was taken:
>>
>> For the center way (road):
>>
>> tram=yes (it's on both directions)
>>
>> and on the two railways:
>> road=yes (the track lies on a road used by motor vehicles)
>>
>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>> lanes=3
>> lanes:backward=2
>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>> tram:forward=yes
>>
>> The tram tag should not be used for tracks which run separated from the
>> road (they are tagged with railway=tram).
>>
>> The tram tag should go along with access tags, as we have lanes reserved
>> for trams and buses/taxis:
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_xxii_marzo.jpg
>>
>> So the center way (carriageway reserved to psv with two tram tracks in
>> shared space) would get tagged as:
>> access=no
>> bus=yes
>> taxi=yes
>> tram=yes
>>
>> We could also think about a relation, type=tram_on_road, it could be
>> useful for sorting things out in complex multi-carriageway situations like
>> this one:
>>
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.49833/9.19607
>>
>> but would also be more difficult for users to mantain and for clients to
>> consume.
>>
>> Any suggestions / impressions?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Sig
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

I think relation street applies to all the way segments of the whole street
with the same name (if in the same municipality), but I didn't check to be
honest.

2015-02-06 19:44 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :

> Many thanks Jo!
>
> Volker also suggests that I should see how things are mapped in other
> major cities, and so I'll do.
>
> So you confirm that there isn't an established way of expressing the
> tram-in-road relationship?
>
> The use of the street relation has been suggested by a fellow member of
> the italian discussion group. It's not clear from the wiki, however, if
> this relation can be used for associating railways to highways for a single
> road segment (from crossroads to crossroads) or is meant for associating
> everything which belongs to a single street (so all the railways and
> highways which belong to the same street).
>
> I'll investigate further.
>
> Many thanks!
>
> Sig
>
>
> 2015-02-06 19:26 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>
>> Ciao Luca,
>>
>> For an example of a road with many variations in how the tram tracks are
>> embedded, you can have a look at this stretch I mapped a few months ago:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/50.8601/4.3117
>>
>> To indicate how they belong together, maybe a street or associatedStreet
>> relation makes sense?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich 
>> :
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> first time I write to the list (after lurking for a while), so I
>>> introduce myself. I am from Milano - Italy, I work for the municipality's
>>> agency for environment and mobility, and we'we been working for the last
>>> months to integrate our road graph with OSM.
>>>
>>> Currently in Milano all tram tracks are mapped separately, so they are
>>> all oneway and no way has both highway=* and railway=tram tags (apart from
>>> some cases we're correcting).
>>>
>>> Now, we would like to store the information wether a certain railway
>>> track runs in a road sharing the same space with motor vehicles.
>>>
>>> I am referring to situations similar to this one:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_Amadeo.jpg
>>>
>>> Which is here on the map:
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.470987/9.236118
>>>
>>> I searched the wiki for a tagging or relation scheme, but found none.
>>>
>>> I was thinking about a simple tagging scheme: tram=yes|forward|backward
>>> for the highway, and road=yes for the railway.
>>>
>>> From the previous example (the picture points at the opposite direction
>>> of the highway on which it was taken:
>>>
>>> For the center way (road):
>>>
>>> tram=yes (it's on both directions)
>>>
>>> and on the two railways:
>>> road=yes (the track lies on a road used by motor vehicles)
>>>
>>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>>> lanes=3
>>> lanes:backward=2
>>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>>> tram:forward=yes
>>>
>>> The tram tag should not be used for tracks which run separated from the
>>> road (they are tagged with railway=tram).
>>>
>>> The tram tag should go along with access tags, as we have lanes reserved
>>> for trams and buses/taxis:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_xxii_marzo.jpg
>>>
>>> So the center way (carriageway reserved to psv with two tram tracks in
>>> shared space) would get tagged as:
>>> access=no
>>> bus=yes
>>> taxi=yes
>>> tram=yes
>>>
>>> We could also think about a relation, type=tram_on_road, it could be
>>> useful for sorting things out in complex multi-carriageway situations like
>>> this one:
>>>
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.49833/9.19607
>>>
>>> but would also be more difficult for users to mantain and for clients to
>>> consume.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions / impressions?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Sig
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2015-02-06 21:11, Jo wrote :


  I think relation street applies to all the way
segments of the whole street with the same name (if in the same
municipality), but I didn't check to be honest.
  

Those kinds of relations are made to unsplit what wouldn't have been
split if what I presented as SEGMENT or OVERLAY and later revised as
PATCH tags were used.
One of the significant differences is that this tag is unique while
there are as many types of unsplitting relations as types of ways
that can be split.


  

  André.

  



  


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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Janko Mihelić]

2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :

>
> We could also user a lanes modifier:
> lanes=3
> lanes:backward=2
> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
> tram:forward=yes
>
>
I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint style
for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging lanes.
It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't show
trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering them.
Right now, I use psv:lanes:forward=designated|no, because psv means all
public service vehicles.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes:psv

And in my town those lanes are reserved for trams, buses and taxis.

Janko Mihelić
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

The reason to use separate ways for trams can be seen in the other tram
tracks I mapped:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.83181/4.33280

You can clearly see that very often the rails don't follow the asphalt
where the cars drive. Cars can make 90 degree turns, the tram rails need to
follow smoother curves.

So it's only in situations where buses follow the tram bedding:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.82432/4.33561

that one can have common ways for the tram and that service road.

* For normal streets we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 1 for the asphalt
road.
* For dual carriageways we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 2 for each side +
sometimes a service way between the tracks, when the buses use it too.

It's rather exceptional that the service road and the tram rails can use
the same OSM way.

Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which uses
lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it will never be a
perfect fit.


I'm sure André won't agree with me, but to implement the solution he
proposes, we'd have to restart OSM from scratch. And even though it may
simplify and solve some things, it would make other stuff a lot harder.

Jo

2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>
>>
>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>> lanes=3
>> lanes:backward=2
>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>> tram:forward=yes
>>
>>
> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint style
> for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging lanes.
> It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't show
> trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering them.
> Right now, I use psv:lanes:forward=designated|no, because psv means all
> public service vehicles.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes:psv
>
> And in my town those lanes are reserved for trams, buses and taxis.
>
> Janko Mihelić
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[James Mast]

Here's how we have done this in the Pittsburgh, PA area where the 'light rail' 
line shares the pavement with the normal road lanes.  They normally only use 
this line during the rush hours unless they have 
to close the tunnel @ Station Square and divert the light rail traffic 
along this route.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/40.4260/-79.9990
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/294921081

And here's a link to what it looks like on the ground level via Google 
StreetView since I don't have any pictures of it since I normally don't go on 
that road when I'm in that area of Pittsburgh unless the Liberty Tubes are 
closed and they are forcing traffic this way (which is very rare).
http://goo.gl/maps/ittiG 

Anyways, this is our only example of 'active' tracks in the road here.  
However, there is still a segment of road on the North Side of Pittsburgh that 
still has the old streetcar tracks from when that line was decommissioned in 
the 1980's still embedded in it, and is a brick road to boot.  I don't think we 
have any other examples like that, but I haven't tried to do any research on 
all the old streetcar routes from before I was born here in Pittsburgh.

-James
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

That's how it was initially done in most places, before we started mapping
those tracks in more detail, which became possible thanks to improved
resolution of the aerial imagery (and in the case of Brussels, thanks to
UrbIS opening the data)

Jo

2015-02-07 4:02 GMT+01:00 James Mast :

> Here's how we have done this in the Pittsburgh, PA area where the 'light
> rail' line shares the pavement with the normal road lanes.  They normally
> only use this line during the rush hours unless they have to close the
> tunnel @ Station Square and divert the light rail traffic along this route.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/40.4260/-79.9990
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/294921081
>
> And here's a link to what it looks like on the ground level via Google
> StreetView since I don't have any pictures of it since I normally don't go
> on that road when I'm in that area of Pittsburgh unless the Liberty Tubes
> are closed and they are forcing traffic this way (which is very rare).
> http://goo.gl/maps/ittiG
>
> Anyways, this is our only example of 'active' tracks in the road here.
> However, there is still a segment of road on the North Side of Pittsburgh
> that still has the old streetcar tracks from when that line was
> decommissioned in the 1980's still embedded in it, and is a brick road to
> boot.  I don't think we have any other examples like that, but I haven't
> tried to do any research on all the old streetcar routes from before I was
> born here in Pittsburgh.
>
> -James
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Luca,

Am 2015-02-06 um 17:29 schrieb Luca Sigfrido Percich:
> first time I write to the list (after lurking for a while), so I introduce
> myself. I am from Milano - Italy, I work for the municipality's agency for
> environment and mobility, and we'we been working for the last months to
> integrate our road graph with OSM.
> 
> Currently in Milano all tram tracks are mapped separately, so they are all
> oneway and no way has both highway=* and railway=tram tags (apart from some
> cases we're correcting).

Thats right. Tram tracks and the street ways should be to different ways
(may share the nodes in some cases) because we have a couple of tags in
OSM which are used for railway and road infrastructure (e.g. maxspeed=*).

Here some examples how to map if

(1) tram tracks totally separated from car traffic:
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ZCD0rR9FfLzIc-SsNFTStg
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/49.00687/8.42918

(2) tram tracks share space with cars, only a white line between the two
directions
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/yP5nkfgRBjWWklXJHRwHUA
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.77655/9.19175

(3) tram tracks share space with cars and there is only one tram track
which is located in the middle of the street
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.36955/10.90007
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/p2Ka3oF2zQtXxBvQoVmvNA

> Now, we would like to store the information wether a certain rTailway track
> runs in a road sharing the same space with motor vehicles.

You do not need to change current tram mapping [1] to do this. Take a
GIS of your choice, import OSM data, calculate buffers around tram
tracks and street ways and intersect them. Tram track buffer should be a
little bit wider than the used structure gauge [2]. Ask your local tram
operating company which structure gauge is used on which tram line (it
may differ between older and newer lines) if it is not mapped yet
(structure_gauge=* or loading_gauge=* [5]).

Calculating buffers around streets is a little bit more difficult. You
have to check how wide the street is. Check following tags to do this:
- oneway=* (i.e. one OSM ways per driving direction or one way for both
  directions),
- number of lanes (lanes=*)
- mapping offset (placement=*, see [3] and [4])
- width=* (you can measure width=* from aerial images)
- if lanes=* and width=* is not tagged, you can estimate the width by
  road classification (highway=primary is often wider than
  highway=tertiary) or add map it yourself

If you want to improve OSM you can add landuse=railway where tram does
not share the space with cars and use landuse=railway areas in your
buffer calculation/intersecting

> I am referring to situations similar to this one:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_Amadeo.jpg
> 
> Which is here on the map:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.470987/9.236118
> 
> I searched the wiki for a tagging or relation scheme, but found none.
> 
> I was thinking about a simple tagging scheme: tram=yes|forward|backward for
> the highway, and road=yes for the railway.

There is one disadvantage. If I (or someone else) edit the tram tracks
there (e.g. because the have been removed or separated from car lanes),
I won't look at the neighbouring street way because trams tracks already
have been mapped separately. Don't map things which can be derived by
spatial queries (see above).

> From the previous example (the picture points at the opposite direction of
> the highway on which it was taken:
> 
> For the center way (road):
> 
> tram=yes (it's on both directions)

A mapper who has not read this discussion maybe think that tram=yes is
an access tag (in some countries, e.g. Germany, trams have to observe
(car) traffic signs because trams are considered as normal street
traffic by law) and remove it because it is not necessary (see the
access tagging hierarchy at OSM wiki).

> and on the two railways:
> road=yes (the track lies on a road used by motor vehicles)
> 
> We could also user a lanes modifier:
> lanes=3
> lanes:backward=2
> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
> tram:forward=yes

Tagging this can be useful if someone wants to render a lane diagram.
Maybe you can use these tags in your GIS, too.

> The tram tag should not be used for tracks which run separated from the
> road (they are tagged with railway=tram).
> 
> The tram tag should go along with access tags, as we have lanes reserved
> for trams and buses/taxis:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Tram_xxii_marzo.jpg
> 
> So the center way (carriageway reserved to psv with two tram tracks in
> shared space) would get tagged as:
> access=no
> bus=yes
> taxi=yes
> tram=yes
> 
> We could also think about a relation, type=tram_on_road, it could be useful
> for sorting things out in complex multi-carriageway situations like this
> one:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/45.49833/9.19607
> 
> but would also be more difficult for users to mantain and for clients to
> consume.

Maintaining is the main 

Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Martin Vonwald]

2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>
>>
>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>> lanes=3
>> lanes:backward=2
>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>> tram:forward=yes
>>
>>
> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint style
> for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging lanes.
> It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't show
> trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering them.
>

Let me know if there's a place with a lot of such tags and I try to update
the style. (Please contact me directly via martin (the usual) vonwald
(dot.) info for this)

Best regards,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[fly]

Am 07.02.2015 um 11:19 schrieb Martin Vonwald:
> 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>>>
>>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>>> lanes=3
>>> lanes:backward=2
>>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>>> tram:forward=yes

Actually, I use an even more general approach:
railway:forward=tram
railway:lanes:backward=tram|no

together with access I also use train
access:lanes:backward=no|yes
train:lanes:backward=designated|no

>> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint style
>> for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging lanes.
>> It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't show
>> trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering them.

+1 but we need to find some consistent tagging system.

> Let me know if there's a place with a lot of such tags and I try to update
> the style. (Please contact me directly via martin (the usual) vonwald
> (dot.) info for this)

+1

Cheers fly


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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Martin Vonwald]

2015-02-08 17:48 GMT+01:00 fly :

> > Let me know if there's a place with a lot of such tags and I try to
> update
> > the style. (Please contact me directly via martin (the usual) vonwald
> > (dot.) info for this)
>
> +1
>

Keep your +1 until I tried AND succeeded ;-)

And yes: some consistent tagging scheme would be fine.

Best regards,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Janko Mihelić]

2015-02-08 17:48 GMT+01:00 fly :

> Actually, I use an even more general approach:
> railway:forward=tram
> railway:lanes:backward=tram|no
>
> together with access I also use train
> access:lanes:backward=no|yes
> train:lanes:backward=designated|no
>

I don't understand why you would use railway:forward=* and
railway:lanes:forward=*. Aren't those two redundant?

Also, why train and not tram?

I like railway:lanes:forward/backward=* because sometimes you can have
rails on the street which are not used by anything, so using tram/train
doesn't make sense. But if you say tram:lanes:forward/backward=* than that
implies that there are rails there, so no other tags are needed anymore.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The shape
of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas cars can
make 90 degree turns. So I'll always keep using separate ways for the tram
rails. One for each direction of travel. And a way in the middle (on the
straight parts) for the highway. An exception to that are dual
carriageways, with the rails embedded, but usually the rails are between
the carriageways in that case.

Jo

2015-02-08 19:45 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> 2015-02-08 17:48 GMT+01:00 fly :
>
>> Actually, I use an even more general approach:
>> railway:forward=tram
>> railway:lanes:backward=tram|no
>>
>> together with access I also use train
>> access:lanes:backward=no|yes
>> train:lanes:backward=designated|no
>>
>
> I don't understand why you would use railway:forward=* and
> railway:lanes:forward=*. Aren't those two redundant?
>
> Also, why train and not tram?
>
> I like railway:lanes:forward/backward=* because sometimes you can have
> rails on the street which are not used by anything, so using tram/train
> doesn't make sense. But if you say tram:lanes:forward/backward=* than that
> implies that there are rails there, so no other tags are needed anymore.
>
> Janko
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Markus Lindholm]

On 8 February 2015 at 19:57, Jo  wrote:
> I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The shape
> of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas cars can
> make 90 degree turns.

I don't understand why that is a problem. If the road is such that the
vehicles drive on top of the tracks, then the obvious solution is to
have just one way with both highway and railway tags. At corners and
otherwise where the track for the tram diverges from the road create a
separate way for the tracks.

/Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

is it one asphalt way with one track? Then I agree. Or is it one asphalt
way with two tracks, one for each direction of the tram lines? Then I'd
draw 3 ways, 2 for the tracks, and 1 for the highway.

Jo

2015-02-08 21:35 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm :

> On 8 February 2015 at 19:57, Jo  wrote:
> > I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The
> shape
> > of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas cars
> can
> > make 90 degree turns.
>
> I don't understand why that is a problem. If the road is such that the
> vehicles drive on top of the tracks, then the obvious solution is to
> have just one way with both highway and railway tags. At corners and
> otherwise where the track for the tram diverges from the road create a
> separate way for the tracks.
>
> /Markus
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Janko Mihelić]

2015-02-08 19:57 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The
> shape of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas
> cars can make 90 degree turns. So I'll always keep using separate ways for
> the tram rails. One for each direction of travel. And a way in the middle
> (on the straight parts) for the highway. An exception to that are dual
> carriageways, with the rails embedded, but usually the rails are between
> the carriageways in that case.
>

I agree, railway=tram should be separate. Tags on the highway only describe
lanes, they do not represent the railway. Tag
tram:lanes:forward=no|designated only says that the outer lane has a
railway track on it.

Janko Mihelić
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 2:35 PM, Markus Lindholm 
wrote:

> On 8 February 2015 at 19:57, Jo  wrote:
> > I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The
> shape
> > of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas cars
> can
> > make 90 degree turns.
>
> I don't understand why that is a problem. If the road is such that the
> vehicles drive on top of the tracks, then the obvious solution is to
> have just one way with both highway and railway tags. At corners and
> otherwise where the track for the tram diverges from the road create a
> separate way for the tracks.


 A better way would be to have a region of landuse=highway or an associated
street relation.  The roadway and the tracks have different centerlines,
and these things *absolutely do *matter for certain applications.  The way
should be in the centerline of the roadway or between the rails in a
track.  Each track should have it's own way.  Rail and public transit fans
absolutely do care about this distinction.  Especially virtual railroaders,
who could easily recreate fullscale models of real world systems easily if
they have accurate and precise data on where the tracks are.
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Luca Sigfrido Percich]

Hi all,

many thanks for all your feedback! It will take me a week to sort it all
out! :)

In Milano we already have (nearly) all the tram traks drawn as distinct
ways, so switching back to the "single way for highway and railway" model
wouldn't be a good option - it would mean losing detail.

I understand that drawing the road as a precise centerline and giving it
correct width tags has a value of its own and would allow us to dynamically
establish the relationship between roads and railway, not to mention a
better rendering and modeling.

But for the sake of "explicit is better than implicit" I still have the
impression that we should also use a tag or two for saying that there is a
tram track in a road.

Sig






2015-02-08 23:18 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> 2015-02-08 19:57 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>
>> I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The
>> shape of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas
>> cars can make 90 degree turns. So I'll always keep using separate ways for
>> the tram rails. One for each direction of travel. And a way in the middle
>> (on the straight parts) for the highway. An exception to that are dual
>> carriageways, with the rails embedded, but usually the rails are between
>> the carriageways in that case.
>>
>
> I agree, railway=tram should be separate. Tags on the highway only
> describe lanes, they do not represent the railway. Tag
> tram:lanes:forward=no|designated only says that the outer lane has a
> railway track on it.
>
> Janko Mihelić
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Paul Johnson]

train:lanes=* might be a tag worth inventing for the highway way, giving it
more thought.

On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Luca Sigfrido Percich <
luca.perc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> many thanks for all your feedback! It will take me a week to sort it all
> out! :)
>
> In Milano we already have (nearly) all the tram traks drawn as distinct
> ways, so switching back to the "single way for highway and railway" model
> wouldn't be a good option - it would mean losing detail.
>
> I understand that drawing the road as a precise centerline and giving it
> correct width tags has a value of its own and would allow us to dynamically
> establish the relationship between roads and railway, not to mention a
> better rendering and modeling.
>
> But for the sake of "explicit is better than implicit" I still have the
> impression that we should also use a tag or two for saying that there is a
> tram track in a road.
>
> Sig
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2015-02-08 23:18 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>
>> 2015-02-08 19:57 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>>
>>> I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The
>>> shape of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas
>>> cars can make 90 degree turns. So I'll always keep using separate ways for
>>> the tram rails. One for each direction of travel. And a way in the middle
>>> (on the straight parts) for the highway. An exception to that are dual
>>> carriageways, with the rails embedded, but usually the rails are between
>>> the carriageways in that case.
>>>
>>
>> I agree, railway=tram should be separate. Tags on the highway only
>> describe lanes, they do not represent the railway. Tag
>> tram:lanes:forward=no|designated only says that the outer lane has a
>> railway track on it.
>>
>> Janko Mihelić
>>
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

I'm afraid joggers may want to start training on those train:lanes...

Do you mean rail:lanes? or tram_track:lanes? or tram_rails:lanes?

2015-02-09 0:08 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :

> train:lanes=* might be a tag worth inventing for the highway way, giving
> it more thought.
>
> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Luca Sigfrido Percich <
> luca.perc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> many thanks for all your feedback! It will take me a week to sort it all
>> out! :)
>>
>> In Milano we already have (nearly) all the tram traks drawn as distinct
>> ways, so switching back to the "single way for highway and railway" model
>> wouldn't be a good option - it would mean losing detail.
>>
>> I understand that drawing the road as a precise centerline and giving it
>> correct width tags has a value of its own and would allow us to dynamically
>> establish the relationship between roads and railway, not to mention a
>> better rendering and modeling.
>>
>> But for the sake of "explicit is better than implicit" I still have the
>> impression that we should also use a tag or two for saying that there is a
>> tram track in a road.
>>
>> Sig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-02-08 23:18 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>>
>>> 2015-02-08 19:57 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>>>
 I don't like to reuse the same ways for both railway and highway. The
 shape of the railways follow smooth curves for obvious reasons, whereas
 cars can make 90 degree turns. So I'll always keep using separate ways for
 the tram rails. One for each direction of travel. And a way in the middle
 (on the straight parts) for the highway. An exception to that are dual
 carriageways, with the rails embedded, but usually the rails are between
 the carriageways in that case.

>>>
>>> I agree, railway=tram should be separate. Tags on the highway only
>>> describe lanes, they do not represent the railway. Tag
>>> tram:lanes:forward=no|designated only says that the outer lane has a
>>> railway track on it.
>>>
>>> Janko Mihelić
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Markus Lindholm]

On 8 February 2015 at 22:32, Jo  wrote:
> is it one asphalt way with one track? Then I agree. Or is it one asphalt way
> with two tracks, one for each direction of the tram lines? Then I'd draw 3
> ways, 2 for the tracks, and 1 for the highway.

Fair enough, but that doesn't quite correspond to the truth on the
ground. The road isn't between the tracks. In my opinion it's better
to have two ways, one in each direction with highway and railway tags
on both.

/Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Luca Sigfrido Percich]

Hi Jo,

I was looking closely at your example, and noticed that maybe the highway
tag is missing from this way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40283536
because the tram line looks interrupted there.

Sig

2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> The reason to use separate ways for trams can be seen in the other tram
> tracks I mapped:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.83181/4.33280
>
> You can clearly see that very often the rails don't follow the asphalt
> where the cars drive. Cars can make 90 degree turns, the tram rails need to
> follow smoother curves.
>
> So it's only in situations where buses follow the tram bedding:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.82432/4.33561
>
> that one can have common ways for the tram and that service road.
>
> * For normal streets we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 1 for the asphalt
> road.
> * For dual carriageways we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 2 for each side
> + sometimes a service way between the tracks, when the buses use it too.
>
> It's rather exceptional that the service road and the tram rails can use
> the same OSM way.
>
> Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which uses
> lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it will never be a
> perfect fit.
>
>
> I'm sure André won't agree with me, but to implement the solution he
> proposes, we'd have to restart OSM from scratch. And even though it may
> simplify and solve some things, it would make other stuff a lot harder.
>
> Jo
>
> 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>
>> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich 
>> :
>>
>>>
>>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>>> lanes=3
>>> lanes:backward=2
>>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>>> tram:forward=yes
>>>
>>>
>> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint style
>> for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging lanes.
>> It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't show
>> trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering them.
>> Right now, I use psv:lanes:forward=designated|no, because psv means all
>> public service vehicles.
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes:psv
>>
>> And in my town those lanes are reserved for trams, buses and taxis.
>>
>> Janko Mihelić
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Luca Sigfrido Percich]

Sorry I meant the railway tag. just added a note on the map

2015-02-09 8:54 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :

> Hi Jo,
>
> I was looking closely at your example, and noticed that maybe the highway
> tag is missing from this way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40283536
> because the tram line looks interrupted there.
>
> Sig
>
> 2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>
>> The reason to use separate ways for trams can be seen in the other tram
>> tracks I mapped:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.83181/4.33280
>>
>> You can clearly see that very often the rails don't follow the asphalt
>> where the cars drive. Cars can make 90 degree turns, the tram rails need to
>> follow smoother curves.
>>
>> So it's only in situations where buses follow the tram bedding:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.82432/4.33561
>>
>> that one can have common ways for the tram and that service road.
>>
>> * For normal streets we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 1 for the asphalt
>> road.
>> * For dual carriageways we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 2 for each side
>> + sometimes a service way between the tracks, when the buses use it too.
>>
>> It's rather exceptional that the service road and the tram rails can use
>> the same OSM way.
>>
>> Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which uses
>> lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it will never be a
>> perfect fit.
>>
>>
>> I'm sure André won't agree with me, but to implement the solution he
>> proposes, we'd have to restart OSM from scratch. And even though it may
>> simplify and solve some things, it would make other stuff a lot harder.
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>>
>>> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich >> >:
>>>

 We could also user a lanes modifier:
 lanes=3
 lanes:backward=2
 tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
 tram:forward=yes


>>> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint
>>> style for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging
>>> lanes. It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't
>>> show trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering
>>> them. Right now, I use psv:lanes:forward=designated|no, because psv means
>>> all public service vehicles.
>>>
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes:psv
>>>
>>> And in my town those lanes are reserved for trams, buses and taxis.
>>>
>>> Janko Mihelić
>>>
>>> ___
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

Hi Luca,

Thank you for letting me know. That was indeed an oversight. I fixed it by
removing the tags from the little highway part, then combining that way
with the railway=tram. There are no bus lines that are passing that part,
so it's enough to have it as railway tram. It took many hours to
incorporate those tracks, even though we have them as open data from UrbIS.
They have the rails though and we want to combine those rails into tracks.

If you want to see high resolution imagery for Brussels, the
AGIV(laanderen) is available in JOSM's list of WMS sources.

Jo


2015-02-09 8:57 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :

> Sorry I meant the railway tag. just added a note on the map
>
> 2015-02-09 8:54 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>
>> Hi Jo,
>>
>> I was looking closely at your example, and noticed that maybe the highway
>> tag is missing from this way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40283536
>> because the tram line looks interrupted there.
>>
>> Sig
>>
>> 2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>>
>>> The reason to use separate ways for trams can be seen in the other tram
>>> tracks I mapped:
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.83181/4.33280
>>>
>>> You can clearly see that very often the rails don't follow the asphalt
>>> where the cars drive. Cars can make 90 degree turns, the tram rails need to
>>> follow smoother curves.
>>>
>>> So it's only in situations where buses follow the tram bedding:
>>>
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.82432/4.33561
>>>
>>> that one can have common ways for the tram and that service road.
>>>
>>> * For normal streets we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 1 for the asphalt
>>> road.
>>> * For dual carriageways we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 2 for each
>>> side + sometimes a service way between the tracks, when the buses use it
>>> too.
>>>
>>> It's rather exceptional that the service road and the tram rails can use
>>> the same OSM way.
>>>
>>> Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which uses
>>> lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it will never be a
>>> perfect fit.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure André won't agree with me, but to implement the solution he
>>> proposes, we'd have to restart OSM from scratch. And even though it may
>>> simplify and solve some things, it would make other stuff a lot harder.
>>>
>>> Jo
>>>
>>> 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>>>
 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich <
 luca.perc...@gmail.com>:

>
> We could also user a lanes modifier:
> lanes=3
> lanes:backward=2
> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
> tram:forward=yes
>
>
 I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint
 style for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging
 lanes. It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't
 show trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering
 them. Right now, I use psv:lanes:forward=designated|no, because psv means
 all public service vehicles.

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes:psv

 And in my town those lanes are reserved for trams, buses and taxis.

 Janko Mihelić

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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

I like to have those tram tracks as long as possible. So I tend to only
split them for the switches, where the route relations need it, or where
the combination with highway tags 'needs' it.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40283768/history

2015-02-09 9:13 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> Hi Luca,
>
> Thank you for letting me know. That was indeed an oversight. I fixed it by
> removing the tags from the little highway part, then combining that way
> with the railway=tram. There are no bus lines that are passing that part,
> so it's enough to have it as railway tram. It took many hours to
> incorporate those tracks, even though we have them as open data from UrbIS.
> They have the rails though and we want to combine those rails into tracks.
>
> If you want to see high resolution imagery for Brussels, the
> AGIV(laanderen) is available in JOSM's list of WMS sources.
>
> Jo
>
>
> 2015-02-09 8:57 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>
>> Sorry I meant the railway tag. just added a note on the map
>>
>> 2015-02-09 8:54 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>>
>>> Hi Jo,
>>>
>>> I was looking closely at your example, and noticed that maybe the
>>> highway tag is missing from this way:
>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40283536 because the tram line looks
>>> interrupted there.
>>>
>>> Sig
>>>
>>> 2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo :
>>>
 The reason to use separate ways for trams can be seen in the other tram
 tracks I mapped:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/50.83181/4.33280

 You can clearly see that very often the rails don't follow the asphalt
 where the cars drive. Cars can make 90 degree turns, the tram rails need to
 follow smoother curves.

 So it's only in situations where buses follow the tram bedding:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/50.82432/4.33561

 that one can have common ways for the tram and that service road.

 * For normal streets we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 1 for the
 asphalt road.
 * For dual carriageways we draw 2 ways for the tracks and 2 for each
 side + sometimes a service way between the tracks, when the buses use it
 too.

 It's rather exceptional that the service road and the tram rails can
 use the same OSM way.

 Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which uses
 lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it will never be a
 perfect fit.


 I'm sure André won't agree with me, but to implement the solution he
 proposes, we'd have to restart OSM from scratch. And even though it may
 simplify and solve some things, it would make other stuff a lot harder.

 Jo

 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :

> 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich <
> luca.perc...@gmail.com>:
>
>>
>> We could also user a lanes modifier:
>> lanes=3
>> lanes:backward=2
>> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
>> tram:forward=yes
>>
>>
> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint
> style for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging
> lanes. It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't
> show trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering
> them. Right now, I use psv:lanes:forward=designated|no, because psv means
> all public service vehicles.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lanes:psv
>
> And in my town those lanes are reserved for trams, buses and taxis.
>
> Janko Mihelić
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which uses
> lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it will never be a
> perfect fit.
>


+1, why not draw area:highway=* for the road areas to model that the trams
run on the road and not separately?

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-02-08 22:32 GMT+01:00 Jo :

> is it one asphalt way with one track? Then I agree. Or is it one asphalt
> way with two tracks, one for each direction of the tram lines? Then I'd
> draw 3 ways, 2 for the tracks, and 1 for the highway.
>


+1
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-02-09 8:29 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm :

> The road isn't between the tracks.
>


you could understand this by looking at the width of the road.



> In my opinion it's better
> to have two ways, one in each direction with highway and railway tags
> on both.
>


-1
if the highway isn't a dual carriageway, you shouldn't have 2 ways to
represent it. Having highway and railway tags on the same object might also
lead to other problems: you won't always know which tag / attribute belongs
to which entity, or in other words it will only work if all properties of
the railway and the highway are the same, e.g. oneway, width, surface.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Martin Vonwald]

Just one quick question: are there any tags describing the track bed and
ties?

2015-02-07 11:19 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald :

> 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
>
>> I think this is the best way to tag this. There's a great map paint style
>> for seeing roads in towns in JOSM, and it helps a lot with tagging lanes.
>> It's called Lanes and road attributes. Unfortunately, it doesn't show
>> trams, but if we start tagging them, it will probably start rendering them.
>>
>
> Let me know if there's a place with a lot of such tags and I try to update
> the style.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Janko Mihelić]

2015-02-09 13:30 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald :

> Just one quick question: are there any tags describing the track bed and
> ties?
>

Here is a huge list of railway tags:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenRailwayMap/Tagging

There is embedded=yes/no/pavement/wood/metal/plastic which tells if the
rails are embedded in the street. I would say that a railroad cannot be a
part of the street if it has embedded=no.

I couldn't find a tag for describing railroad ties, which is strange.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[fly]

Am 08.02.2015 um 19:45 schrieb Janko Mihelić:
> 2015-02-08 17:48 GMT+01:00 fly :
>> Am 07.02.2015 um 11:19 schrieb Martin Vonwald:
>>> 2015-02-07 0:31 GMT+01:00 Janko Mihelić :
 2015-02-06 17:29 GMT+01:00 Luca Sigfrido Percich :
>
> We could also user a lanes modifier:
> lanes=3
> lanes:backward=2
> tram:lanes:backward=yes|no
> tram:forward=yes

To get it clear, I only use these tags as addition on highway=* tagged
with lanes:-Taggingsystem. There is always a separate way with railway=*
+ track=1 for each track.

>> Actually, I use an even more general approach:
>> railway:forward=tram
>> railway:lanes:backward=tram|no
>>
>> together with access I also use train
>> access:lanes:backward=no|yes
>> train:lanes:backward=designated|no
>>
> 
> I don't understand why you would use railway:forward=* and
> railway:lanes:forward=*. Aren't those two redundant?

Yes, the first is used for lanes:forward=1 while the second one for
values greater than 1.

Please read carefully, I used forward and backward and followed the
quoted example.

> Also, why train and not tram?

tram would work in my case but I know also rails used by freight train
which are embedded into the road.

I see train as a more general access tag compared to tram, cable_car,
light_train etc.

> I like railway:lanes:forward/backward=* because sometimes you can have
> rails on the street which are not used by anything, so using tram/train
> doesn't make sense. But if you say tram:lanes:forward/backward=* than that
> implies that there are rails there, so no other tags are needed anymore.

I would always use railway:forward/backward= for
lanes:forward/backward=1 but won't insist on that one.

For more than one lane in one directions I use
railway:lanes:forward/backward=* as I already mentioned above this is
not only tram specific.

train or tram are access tags which I only use if I need them usually
only in cases of access=no or access:lanes:forward/backward=no|no|yes or
similar.

Forgot to send some links the other day:

[1] https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.99472/7.85038
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/47.98524/7.83145

cu fly

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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 2015-02-09 o 12:50, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:


2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo >:


Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which
uses lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it
will never be a perfect fit.



+1, why not draw area:highway=* for the road areas to model that the 
trams run on the road and not separately?




BTW - I currently try to resurrect the idea of rendering street areas, 
feel free to contribute here:


https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/180

We have much more examples where it would help us stay closer to the 
reality.
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Markus Lindholm]

On 9 February 2015 at 12:58, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 2015-02-09 8:29 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm :
>> The road isn't between the tracks.
> you could understand this by looking at the width of the road.

Doesn't seem to be an ideal solution to draw the objects in a way that
differs from ground truth and trying to use tags to convey that they
actually on top of each other.

> Having highway and railway tags on the same object might also
> lead to other problems: you won't always know which tag / attribute belongs
> to which entity, or in other words it will only work if all properties of
> the railway and the highway are the same, e.g. oneway, width, surface.

Not really a problem as you could always qualify the tag if there's a
risk of ambiguity.

/Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Jo]

As I said before, it's simply a model. We have always drawn 1 way for each
stretch of asphalt. We also draw 1 way per track. They sometimes overlap,
but it turns out that this doesn't happen all that often.

Maybe this is the reason why they decided to draw rails instead of tracks
in the UrbIS dataset. But that's a different model. Probably makes more
sense in a GIS system.

Jo

2015-02-09 18:56 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm :

> On 9 February 2015 at 12:58, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
> > 2015-02-09 8:29 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm :
> >> The road isn't between the tracks.
> > you could understand this by looking at the width of the road.
>
> Doesn't seem to be an ideal solution to draw the objects in a way that
> differs from ground truth and trying to use tags to convey that they
> actually on top of each other.
>
> > Having highway and railway tags on the same object might also
> > lead to other problems: you won't always know which tag / attribute
> belongs
> > to which entity, or in other words it will only work if all properties of
> > the railway and the highway are the same, e.g. oneway, width, surface.
>
> Not really a problem as you could always qualify the tag if there's a
> risk of ambiguity.
>
> /Markus
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tram tracks running in a road

[Warin]

On 9/02/2015 10:50 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2015-02-07 1:12 GMT+01:00 Jo >:


Keep in mind it's only a model to represent reality. A model which
uses lines for what in reality are areas, so whatever we do, it
will never be a perfect fit.



+1, why not draw area:highway=* for the road areas to model that the 
trams run on the road and not separately?


Few thing would be true lines i.e. zero width. Things like boundaries 
would be true lines (country/state/administrative). Most cliff lines 
will have some 'widt' as they won't be perfectly vertical. Roads and 
train line have a definite width, and that width can be represented by 
the lanes= or track gauge entries. It is not unusual to have a sinle 
drawing line represent something eles in reality e.g. single line 
electrical drawing have a single line represent a number of wires, this 
easies the drawing and makes the resulting 'map' easier to read. I see 
little advantage to making highways areas for the work input involved 
myself.


Upto the mapper on the spot. But remen]ber that the data input may not 
get to the output - the render may not use it.





cheers,
Martin


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