Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 05.03.2016 um 07:55 schrieb Marc Gemis :
> 
> Another obsolete tag that is still is "in use" is building=entrance


Although there are some hints it is not so superclear from the wiki that you 
shouldn't absolutely use this tag for an entrance:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dentrance

Additionally this tag could make some sense in case of a true entrance building 
(i.e. entrance to a site), but would be on a way then, so those 42000+ nodes 
that are still in the db, clearly don't represent this situation.

cheers
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> ...and of course that would require a declaration of A is right and B is
> wrong, or at least A is better than B, which will annoy the free-taggers
> who are against all standardisation and normalisation as that potentially
> limits the creative freedom of mappers who may not even have been born
> yet...
>
> My sentiments are pretty much in agreement with yours LOL.  Also this line
I find (painfully) amusing:

"We have no way of reaching consensus, only by attrition where the
combatants drop off one by one as they progressively lose the will to live."

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Colin Smale]

...and of course that would require a declaration of A is right and B is
wrong, or at least A is better than B, which will annoy the free-taggers
who are against all standardisation and normalisation as that
potentially limits the creative freedom of mappers who may not even have
been born yet...

If there is true consensus about A being better than B, then the
community as a whole should not have a problem about retagging. Whether
it is manual or automated should make no difference, assuming the result
is the same. We have no way of reaching consensus, only by attrition
where the combatants drop off one by one as they progressively lose the
will to live. 

On 2016-03-05 08:19, Jo wrote:

> That inertia of obsoleted legacy has everything to do with the fact we 
> discourage mechanical edits. If somebody were to fix all those 
> building=entrance to become entrance=main on nodes, their changesets would 
> probably be reverted. So why even bother? It's more fun to map new stuff than 
> to fix stuff that nobody sees anyway...
> 
> Polyglot
> 
> 2016-03-05 7:55 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Because something has been in existence does not mean it cannot ever be
>>> changed!
>>> Consider the power sub station ... that was gradually changed to a new
>>> tagging scheme.
>> 
>> But it can take years :-(,
>> 
>> 1/4 of the sub_station/substation tags are still sub_station: [1]
>> 
>> Another obsolete tag that is still is "in use" is building=entrance,
>> see [2]  still over 40.000 places usign a tag that has been obsoleted
>> over 4 years ago.(*)
>> Legacy tags are hard to get rid of.
>> 
>> m.
>> 
>> [1] 
>> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/power=sub_station/power=substation
>> [2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/building=entrance/entrance
>> 
>> (*) I think it's over 4 years, the wiki page mentions "overtaken in 2012".
>> 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Jo]

That inertia of obsoleted legacy has everything to do with the fact we
discourage mechanical edits. If somebody were to fix all those
building=entrance to become entrance=main on nodes, their changesets would
probably be reverted. So why even bother? It's more fun to map new stuff
than to fix stuff that nobody sees anyway...

Polyglot



2016-03-05 7:55 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Because something has been in existence does not mean it cannot ever be
> > changed!
> > Consider the power sub station ... that was gradually changed to a new
> > tagging scheme.
>
> But it can take years :-(,
>
> 1/4 of the sub_station/substation tags are still sub_station: [1]
>
> Another obsolete tag that is still is "in use" is building=entrance,
> see [2]  still over 40.000 places usign a tag that has been obsoleted
> over 4 years ago.(*)
> Legacy tags are hard to get rid of.
>
> m.
>
>
> [1]
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/power=sub_station/power=substation
> [2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/building=entrance/entrance
>
> (*) I think it's over 4 years, the wiki page mentions "overtaken in 2012".
>
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Because something has been in existence does not mean it cannot ever be
> changed!
> Consider the power sub station ... that was gradually changed to a new
> tagging scheme.

But it can take years :-(,

1/4 of the sub_station/substation tags are still sub_station: [1]

Another obsolete tag that is still is "in use" is building=entrance,
see [2]  still over 40.000 places usign a tag that has been obsoleted
over 4 years ago.(*)
Legacy tags are hard to get rid of.

m.


[1] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/power=sub_station/power=substation
[2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/building=entrance/entrance

(*) I think it's over 4 years, the wiki page mentions "overtaken in 2012".

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Warin]

On 4/03/2016 8:58 PM, Marc Gemis wrote:

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

Here in Chiang Mai motorcycle rental shops are common as well. Rentals from
a motorcycle dealer are not.

Don't know much about motorcycles, but for caravans or campers it is
not unusual that you can rent one in a shop. Although there are places
that specialize in rental as well (usually only campers then). In case
of a regular shop, the caravans/campers go on sale as second hand
after 2 or 3 seasons.
The decisions that have to be made to come up with a tagging scheme
are more or less the same for bicycle, caravans, cars, moped or
motorcycles that all can be bought, rented and need service.


Or, for example;
 sewing machines -slod, serviced, repaired.
mechanical watches and clocks can be sold, require service, repair


  Some
"shops" (or combinations thereof) might be more common than others
depending on your location.


Because something has been in existence does not mean it cannot ever be changed!
Consider the power sub station ... that was gradually changed to a new tagging 
scheme.
There is little to no reason why 'sale' or any other tag cannot be changed for 
the better other than inertia.





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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:13 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> Here in Chiang Mai motorcycle rental shops are common as well. Rentals from
> a motorcycle dealer are not.

Don't know much about motorcycles, but for caravans or campers it is
not unusual that you can rent one in a shop. Although there are places
that specialize in rental as well (usually only campers then). In case
of a regular shop, the caravans/campers go on sale as second hand
after 2 or 3 seasons.
The decisions that have to be made to come up with a tagging scheme
are more or less the same for bicycle, caravans, cars, moped or
motorcycles that all can be bought, rented and need service. Some
"shops" (or combinations thereof) might be more common than others
depending on your location.

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave F]

On 03/03/2016 18:24, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
Also from a linguistic point of view, "sales" is not chosen 
extraordinarily well, it sounds like "bargain sale"/"clearance sale" 
or am I over interpreting this?


Yes, you're over thinking it. When you sell something, you make a sale, 
do it again & you've made sales. Large companies have sales departments.


Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

Here in Chiang Mai motorcycle rental shops are common as well. Rentals from
a motorcycle dealer are not.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 3:46 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 04.03.2016 um 08:58 schrieb Simon Poole :
> >
> > - pure motorcycle rental places are very very rare (pls don't assume
> > that it is the same as with cars), at least I and I suspect most other
> > bikers are likely to  search for dealerships and then check if they
> > provide rentals or not.
>
>
> pure motorcycle rentals might be rare, but pure motorcycle and moped and
> bicycle rentals are not, at least here they are common and they are
> commonly not selling their vehicles.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 04.03.2016 um 08:58 schrieb Simon Poole :
> 
> - pure motorcycle rental places are very very rare (pls don't assume
> that it is the same as with cars), at least I and I suspect most other
> bikers are likely to  search for dealerships and then check if they
> provide rentals or not.


pure motorcycle rentals might be rare, but pure motorcycle and moped and 
bicycle rentals are not, at least here they are common and they are commonly 
not selling their vehicles.


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:56 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> While I don't want to defend the scheme of the preset (you should
> contact the author of the preset on why he/she choose that scheme),
> there are some benefits with that schema.
> With this schema I only need 1 query shop=motorcycle + rental=yes (or
> whatever is in the preset) to find all places where you can rent
> motorcycles.
>

+1

Agreed. That was what I meant when I said "one could make the argument that
a top level tag of shop=motorcycle with subtags to determine what
particular type of shop it is also makes sense and I think that's what the
writers of this preset are trying to achieve."

After discussing this with all of you I think what the Preset writers are
trying to achieve with shop=motorcycle is probably better than using
individual tags for rentals, parts, repair, etc. We're still left with some
strange tag values however, (oldtimer, brand), and the unusual choice of
terms for the "sale" tag and its values.

Some further thoughts: I have a hunch that the value "brand" as it appears
in the choices in the Preset is not meant to be used literally but as a
reminder to enter the name of the brand in the text box provided. That way
the tag clothes=yes/no/brand could take the value clothes=Levi. Same with
parts and repairs; if a particular brand is featured, one places that brand
into the text box. If so, this is a highly unorthodox approach.

While I was writing this reply Simon Poole tells us that the Preset has
been around for 6 years and trying to figure out why certain things were
done is probably not the best way to spend our time. He also agrees that
sale is a weird tag.

Lastly, the tag at the very bottom of the preset is "services=*" where one
is presumably to add other services offered by the shop. This too is a
highly unorthodox tag and also not well documented. Taginfo lists 11 pages
of keys containing thee word services but the list is dominated by
services=bus (391), services=tram (124) and services=yes (45)

How can we set about to change it? Should we?
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Simon Poole]

Two observations 

- the motorcycle preset in its present form (well with the exception of
an improvement from yours truly) exists since at least JOSM 3498 6 years
ago ... debating the motivations of whoever added the sale key is rather
moot at this point in time.

- pure motorcycle rental places are very very rare (pls don't assume
that it is the same as with cars), at least I and I suspect most other
bikers are likely to  search for dealerships and then check if they
provide rentals or not.

And yes, the sale key is rather weird,

Simon

Am 04.03.2016 um 07:56 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
>>> Am 03.03.2016 um 14:41 schrieb Marc Gemis :
>>>
>>> I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
>>> there is no need for sales=no.
>>> Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes 
>>> sense.
>>
>> I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that 
>> facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do 
>> this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they 
>> don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.
> While I don't want to defend the scheme of the preset (you should
> contact the author of the preset on why he/she choose that scheme),
> there are some benefits with that schema.
> With this schema I only need 1 query shop=motorcycle + rental=yes (or
> whatever is in the preset) to find all places where you can rent
> motorcycles.
>
> With the duck tagging, you need the union of 3 "queries"
>
> - one for pure rental places
> - one for shop + rental
> - one for repair + rental.
>
> Otherwise you might miss places where you can rent a motorcycle. So
> the distinction at the top is not useful for this search. The same is
> true in case you look for a repair shop, as shops selling motorcycles
> usually offer service as well. Hence, the distinction is not always
> right imho.
>
> My original comment was just triggered by Martin stating that
> sale/sales does not makes sense. It does makes sense in case you merge
> all three, But shop=motorcycle is a bad choice in that case. For some
> queries it would be nice to have all motorcycle related commercial
> activities under 1 tag.
> This does not mean that I ask to change the current preferred way of 3
> top level tags. I just want to point out that there is a downside on
> the current schema (with 3 toplevel tags) as well.
>
> regards
>
> m
>
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>> Am 03.03.2016 um 14:41 schrieb Marc Gemis :
>>
>> I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
>> there is no need for sales=no.
>> Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes 
>> sense.
>
>
> I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that 
> facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do 
> this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they 
> don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.

While I don't want to defend the scheme of the preset (you should
contact the author of the preset on why he/she choose that scheme),
there are some benefits with that schema.
With this schema I only need 1 query shop=motorcycle + rental=yes (or
whatever is in the preset) to find all places where you can rent
motorcycles.

With the duck tagging, you need the union of 3 "queries"

- one for pure rental places
- one for shop + rental
- one for repair + rental.

Otherwise you might miss places where you can rent a motorcycle. So
the distinction at the top is not useful for this search. The same is
true in case you look for a repair shop, as shops selling motorcycles
usually offer service as well. Hence, the distinction is not always
right imho.

My original comment was just triggered by Martin stating that
sale/sales does not makes sense. It does makes sense in case you merge
all three, But shop=motorcycle is a bad choice in that case. For some
queries it would be nice to have all motorcycle related commercial
activities under 1 tag.
This does not mean that I ask to change the current preferred way of 3
top level tags. I just want to point out that there is a downside on
the current schema (with 3 toplevel tags) as well.

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:24 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that
> facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do
> this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they
> don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.
>
> Also from a linguistic point of view, "sales" is not chosen
> extraordinarily well, it sounds like "bargain sale"/"clearance sale" or am
> I over interpreting this?
>

+1

I agree. Top level tags for the main functions of motorcycle rentals, parts
and repairs make sense and are less confusing. In the case of a shop that
primarily sells motorcycles, adding extra tags when it also sells clothing,
parts, service, and inspections is fine as well. However, one could make
the argument that a top level tag of shop=motorcycle with subtags to
determine what particular type of shop it is also makes sense and I think
that's what the writers of this preset are trying to achieve.

As for the sale tag, I think removing it or ignoring it altogether is the
best approach.


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.03.2016 um 14:41 schrieb Marc Gemis :
> 
> I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
> there is no need for sales=no.
> Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes 
> sense.


I don't see why a place to rent motorcycles should be tagged in a way that 
facilitates confusion with a place that sells motorcycles. Why would you do 
this? People look either for the first or the second but almost never they 
don't care, so a distinction at the top level seems right.

Also from a linguistic point of view, "sales" is not chosen extraordinarily 
well, it sounds like "bargain sale"/"clearance sale" or am I over interpreting 
this?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> 2016-03-03 13:21 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :
>>
>> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
>> sense, not ?
>
>
>
>
> if it is a service station, I'd map it like this, or shop=motorcycle_repair
> in analogy to the very established shop=car_repair
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=car_repair
> There is some usage (more than all sale=no together):
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=motorcycle_repair
>
> There are also some amenity=motorcycle_rental (even combinable with shops),
> similar to the much more used car rentals:
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=motorcycle_rental
> http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=car_rental and some very few
> vehicle_rental: http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=vehicle_rental
>

I'l agree that when there are separate tags for rental and repair
there is no need for sales=no.
Only when you try to bring everything under 1 umbrella the sales=no makes sense.


m

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Colin Smale]

Is there nothing for motorcycle clothing? Leathers, boots, gloves,
helmets... That doesn't immediately appear to fall under m_parts,
m_rental or m_repair. 

--colin 

On 2016-03-03 14:25, Dave Swarthout wrote:

>> Rather than introducing new tags via editor presets people should "discuss" 
>> new tags (e.g. by dropping a note on the tagging ML), 
> 
> +1 I agree totally. But the sale tag is there in the Preset already - how did 
> that happen? The Wiki page tells us that sale refers to the fact that "whole" 
> motorcycles are being sold, either new or used or by "brand". I have never 
> seen the term used that way. But now that it's there, what can be done about 
> it? It's too much work to go through JOSM channels to change it -- I have 
> other more important things to attend to so I'm inclined to simply ignore it. 
> 
> @Marc - there are tags in use for shop=motorcyle_parts (57), 
> shop=motorcycle_rental (1) and shop=motorcycle_repair (272). This preset is 
> an attempt to bring them all together under one roof, so to speak. 
> 
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>  wrote:
>>> How many motorcycle shops do not sell something?
>> 
>> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
>> sense, not ? In case the shop=motorcycle has to be used for places
>> where you can only rent or have your motorcycle repaired. We do have a
>> car_repair and car_rental (sp?), but do we have something like that
>> for motorcycles ?
>> 
>> m
>> 
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> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

>Rather than introducing new tags via editor presets people should
"discuss" new tags (e.g. by dropping a note on the tagging ML),

+1 I agree totally. But the sale tag is there in the Preset already - how
did that happen? The Wiki page tells us that sale refers to the fact that
"whole" motorcycles are being sold, either new or used or by "brand". I
have never seen the term used that way. But now that it's there, what can
be done about it? It's too much work to go through JOSM channels to change
it — I have other more important things to attend to so I'm inclined to
simply ignore it.

@Marc - there are tags in use for shop=motorcyle_parts (57),
shop=motorcycle_rental (1) and shop=motorcycle_repair (272). This preset is
an attempt to bring them all together under one roof, so to speak.



On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
> > How many motorcycle shops do not sell something?
>
> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
> sense, not ? In case the shop=motorcycle has to be used for places
> where you can only rent or have your motorcycle repaired. We do have a
> car_repair and car_rental (sp?), but do we have something like that
> for motorcycles ?
>
> m
>
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-03 13:21 GMT+01:00 Marc Gemis :

> In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
> sense, not ?
>



if it is a service station, I'd map it like this, or shop=motorcycle_repair
in analogy to the very established shop=car_repair
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=car_repair
There is some usage (more than all sale=no together):
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/shop=motorcycle_repair

There are also some amenity=motorcycle_rental (even combinable with shops),
similar to the much more used car rentals:
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=motorcycle_rental
http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=car_rental and some very few
vehicle_rental: http://taginfo.osm.org/tags/amenity=vehicle_rental

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
> How many motorcycle shops do not sell something?

In combination with service=yes or rental=yes, sale/sells=no makes
sense, not ? In case the shop=motorcycle has to be used for places
where you can only rent or have your motorcycle repaired. We do have a
car_repair and car_rental (sp?), but do we have something like that
for motorcycles ?

m

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-03-03 8:35 GMT+01:00 Dave Swarthout :

> For example, I agree "sells" would be a better tag than "sale" but sale is
> already present in the JOSM preset.




Well, then remove it and change it to "sells:" ;-)
Have a look at the current usage of "sale":
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/sale#values
while at first this looks like an almost established tag (900+ uses),
you'll soon see that it doesn't allow to be interpreted and by what you
state it isn't even documented.
72% of values are "yes" 17% are "no" (so what is "sale=yes" supposed to
mean, that the shop is for sale? That it does sell something? How many
motorcycle shops do not sell something? IMHO these 17% sale=no are ill
tagged and should rather not get a shop=motorcycle at all), some few are
"used" and "used_only" (there is already a different more established tag
for these: http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/second_hand#values ), I can't even
guess what sale=brand, sale=retail, sale=architecture, sale=Razzo,
sale=brands, sale=off or sale=now-on or sale=Bing mean. My suggestion is to
mark the tag as not suggested for application.

Rather than introducing new tags via editor presets people should "discuss"
new tags (e.g. by dropping a note on the tagging ML), because this way they
can be pointed to other tags that are already in use for the same thing or
to problems that arise from the proposed way of tagging. After/during this
discussion, the intended meaning of a tag should be documented in the wiki
to avoid people believing the same tags to mean different things.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.03.2016 um 02:23 schrieb Dave Swarthout :
> 
> the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag means the shop sells "whole 
> motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of motorcycles) of a certain brand. Fine, 
> but the brand tag in the main section of the preset already specifies that, 
> doesn't it? Is it logical to expect a shop selling new Hondas to also sell 
> pieces of Yamaha motorcycles? 


I'm occasionally using the prefix "sells:" to say what is sold, particularly in 
cases that are not inferrable. In your case, these could be 
sells:motorcycles=yes/no/used...
sells:motorcycle_parts=yes/no/etc

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Dave Swarthout]

@Warin,

Thanks for your reply. While I may agree with you on some of this my
question has more to do with understanding the tagging scheme that's in
place and how it came to be there rather than trying to change it to
something different. For example, I agree "sells" would be a better tag
than "sale" but sale is already present in the JOSM preset.

Unifying the tagging of motorcycle shops with those for cars, bicycles,
etc. is certainly a worthwhile goal but it's beyond what I want to take on
at the moment.

I'm afraid the old saying about "too many cooks spoiling the broth" applies
in this case (and many others I'm sure).



On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/03/2016 12:23 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
>
>
> I recently discovered a preset in JOSM that should help in my work,
> shop=motorcycle (See:Presets/Transport/Motorcycle/Motorcycle Dealer in JOSM
> rel 9900). It is very detailed and would seem to cover every possible
> aspect of such shops from clothing and accessories to service. But it uses
> some tags and values that I've never seen and for which I could find no
> documentation.
>
> In addition to the established tag brand which defines the name of the
> vehicle's manufacturer, (brand=Yamaha, brand=Honda), brand as a value
> appears as an offering for several other tags. Here is a section of the Wiki
> page for shop=motorcycle
> 
>
> The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:
>
>- *sale=yes/brand/used/no/...* - sells whole motorcycles
>- *rental=yes/brand/no/...* - motorcycle rental
>- *repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/...* - repairs / maintains motorcycles
>- *safety_inspection=yes/no* - inspection
> of safety/emission
>regulation conformance
>- *parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/...* - sells motorcycle parts
>- *clothes=yes/brand/no/...* - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
>- *scooters=yes/no/only* - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful
>in Asia
>- *services=...* - other services this shop offers
>
>
> Note the tag "sale" which can take values of yes, no, or brand. I reckon
> it means what it says but "sale" seems a poor choice for a tag.  (Note too
> that the Preset does not offer "used" in the choices as the Wiki implies.)
> If the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag means the shop sells
> "whole motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of motorcycles) of a certain
> brand. Fine, but the brand tag in the main section of the preset already
> specifies that, doesn't it? Is it logical to expect a shop selling new
> Hondas to also sell pieces of Yamaha motorcycles?
>
> One could reasonably assume that "brand" in those other cases means
> clothing of a certain brand, parts of a certain brand, etc., but what is
> the value "oldtimer" supposed to indicate?
>
> Thanks for your help and comments.
>
>
>
> Most shops sell more than one brand of an item.
> And 'sale' is usually taken to be a special event where prices are lower.
> secondhand is already in the wiki
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:second_hand ... status= approved
> .. so you would assume it has been discussed here and voted on. Around June
> 2012.
> safety_inspection= ... see wiki amenity= vehicle_inspection
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvehicle_inspection
> oldtimer refers to older things.. usually no longer sold 'new' but either
> 'restored', 'used' etc. Example; vintage and veteran cars.
>
> Presently bicycle shops have a dedicated tagging scheme... are all shops
> to have there own individual and incompatible scheme? Or can we have ONE
> common scheme? Please?
>
> I would prefer
>
> sells:motorcycle:yamaha:honda=yes
> sells:motorcycle:parts:honda=yes
> sells:motorcycle:tyres:yes  !NOTE UK ENGLISH!
> sells:scooters:hysong:yes
> sells:motorcycle_clothing=yes
>
> Repair, maintain and service .. can all mean the same thing These can
> be a separate area..  a 'workshop' with a separate entry and separate
> reception.
>
>
>
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>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM preset with strange tag values

[Warin]

On 3/03/2016 12:23 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:


I recently discovered a preset in JOSM that should help in my work, 
shop=motorcycle (See:Presets/Transport/Motorcycle/Motorcycle Dealer in 
JOSM rel 9900). It is very detailed and would seem to cover every 
possible aspect of such shops from clothing and accessories to 
service. But it uses some tags and values that I've never seen and for 
which I could find no documentation.


In addition to the established tag brand which defines the name of the 
vehicle's manufacturer, (brand=Yamaha, brand=Honda), brand as a value 
appears as an offering for several other tags. Here is a section of 
the Wiki page for shop=motorcycle 



The following is a proposal to put this service variety into tags:

  * /sale=yes/brand/used/no/.../ - sells whole motorcycles
  * /rental=yes/brand/no/.../ - motorcycle rental
  * /repair=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/.../ - repairs / maintains motorcycles
  * /safety_inspection=yes/no/ - inspection
 of
safety/emission regulation conformance
  * /parts=yes/brand/oldtimer/no/.../ - sells motorcycle parts
  * /clothes=yes/brand/no/.../ - sells motorcycle clothes / equipment
  * /scooters=yes/no/only/ - to distinguish scooter shops, very useful
in Asia
  * /services=.../ - other services this shop offers


Note the tag "sale" which can take values of yes, no, or brand. I 
reckon it means what it says but "sale" seems a poor choice for a tag. 
 (Note too that the Preset does not offer "used" in the choices as the 
Wiki implies.) If the wording in the Wiki is followed then this tag 
means the shop sells "whole motorcycles" (as opposed to pieces of 
motorcycles) of a certain brand. Fine, but the brand tag in the main 
section of the preset already specifies that, doesn't it? Is it 
logical to expect a shop selling new Hondas to also sell pieces of 
Yamaha motorcycles?


One could reasonably assume that "brand" in those other cases means 
clothing of a certain brand, parts of a certain brand, etc., but what 
is the value "oldtimer" supposed to indicate?


Thanks for your help and comments.




Most shops sell more than one brand of an item.
And 'sale' is usually taken to be a special event where prices are lower.
secondhand is already in the wiki 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:second_hand ... status= approved 
.. so you would assume it has been discussed here and voted on. Around 
June 2012.
safety_inspection= ... see wiki amenity= vehicle_inspection 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dvehicle_inspection
oldtimer refers to older things.. usually no longer sold 'new' but 
either 'restored', 'used' etc. Example; vintage and veteran cars.


Presently bicycle shops have a dedicated tagging scheme... are all shops 
to have there own individual and incompatible scheme? Or can we have ONE 
common scheme? Please?


I would prefer

sells:motorcycle:yamaha:honda=yes
sells:motorcycle:parts:honda=yes
sells:motorcycle:tyres:yes  !NOTE UK ENGLISH!
sells:scooters:hysong:yes
sells:motorcycle_clothing=yes

Repair, maintain and service .. can all mean the same thing These 
can be a separate area..  a 'workshop' with a separate entry and 
separate reception.



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