Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 5:24 AM, Dmitry Kiselev dkise...@osm.me wrote: Playgrounds almost newer are supervised by any kind of stuff. Kids areas and rooms, in most cases have employees who takes care of kids. Sounds like you're describing the difference between a playground and a day care. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 11:04:12PM +, Steve Doerr wrote: It's childrens_area, not children_area. In normal prose, it would be children's area (possessive, with an apostrophe). I think we generally accept the dropping of apostrophes in keyword tag values. Similarly, the phrase used in the thread subject should actually be kids' areas. +1 ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Fri, 19 Dec 2014, Никита wrote: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no kids_area=* is not about these 4 tags. kids_area=* is disjoint to leisure=playgrounds. Please read proposal. http://www.imenno.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/HD_08.jpg-940x626.jpg - leisure=playground http://www.realkidfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/161.jpg - kids_area=yes http://goidapark.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12.jpg - leisure=playground http://alpindustria.ru/UserFiles/Image/News/Novosib_kidsplace/01.jpg - kids_area=yes http://planeta-sh.by/Image/Uploaded/0.jpg - kids_area=yes http://www.labirint-bookstore.ru/images/upl/tinymce/pages_6_1281101285.jpg - kids_area=yes in shop=books http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6001/vincentventa.c/0_508b4_38a3aef3_XL - kids_area=yes inside leisure=stadium Do you have tags forplayground=pony? playground=pencils? playground=books? playground=table? pl ayground=horses? If not, there no reason to talk about it in kids_area proposal I will not use over 70 tags to simply map single kids_area=*. Why not? I don't see why the given list would be complete even for outdoor playgrounds: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:playground ...so mappers should use new values when needed rather than waiting them to magically appear on the playground=* wiki page. However, I think it was bad decision to have it tagged as playground=swing/etc instead of playground:swing/etc=yes (similar to recycling:*=yes tagging system). That would have allowed better inclusion of multiple equipment to the same object (e.g. climbingframe+slide is rather typical combo) and use of it for the whole playground object (area or node) instead of placing each equipment to the physical position. -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Why not? Is your questions serious? Do you really want to tag 1000 pencils at 30 tables? Will you update this information from day to day? Will you separate playground:felt-tip pen=yes from playground:pen=yes? However, I think it was bad decision to have it tagged as playground=swing/etc instead of playground:swing/etc=yes (similar to recycling:*=yes tagging system). You will be surprised that nobody using this system in Russia. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=recycling%3A or mentioned playground schema: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=playground Similarly we don't care about exact tables and their locations or geometries. We need answers to simple questions Where should I leave my child?. We don't care about playground:pencil=yes tagging, it is useless for any purpose. 2014-12-19 14:03 GMT+04:00 Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: On Fri, 19 Dec 2014, Никита wrote: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no kids_area=* is not about these 4 tags. kids_area=* is disjoint to leisure=playgrounds. Please read proposal. http://www.imenno.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/HD_08.jpg-940x626.jpg - leisure=playground http://www.realkidfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/161.jpg - kids_area=yes http://goidapark.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12.jpg - leisure=playground http://alpindustria.ru/UserFiles/Image/News/Novosib_kidsplace/01.jpg - kids_area=yes http://planeta-sh.by/Image/Uploaded/0.jpg - kids_area=yes http://www.labirint-bookstore.ru/images/upl/tinymce/pages_6_1281101285.jpg - kids_area=yes in shop=books http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6001/vincentventa.c/0_508b4_38a3aef3_XL - kids_area=yes inside leisure=stadium Do you have tags forplayground=pony? playground=pencils? playground=books? playground=table? pl ayground=horses? If not, there no reason to talk about it in kids_area proposal I will not use over 70 tags to simply map single kids_area=*. Why not? I don't see why the given list would be complete even for outdoor playgrounds: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:playground ...so mappers should use new values when needed rather than waiting them to magically appear on the playground=* wiki page. However, I think it was bad decision to have it tagged as playground=swing/etc instead of playground:swing/etc=yes (similar to recycling:*=yes tagging system). That would have allowed better inclusion of multiple equipment to the same object (e.g. climbingframe+slide is rather typical combo) and use of it for the whole playground object (area or node) instead of placing each equipment to the physical position. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Let me highlight something that was said by you(!) in the email I answered to: Do you have tags forplayground=pony? playground=pencils? playground=books? playground=table? playground=horses? If not, there no reason to talk about it in kids_area proposal ...and then you proceed to talk something below that entirely contradicts what you said above?!? On Fri, 19 Dec 2014, Никита wrote: Why not? Is your questions serious? I answered to what I thought that was a serious question from you but you seem to not care about the response in the first place. Do you really want to tag 1000 pencils at 30 tables? Will you update this information from day to day? Will you separate playground:felt-tip pen=yes from playground:pen=yes? Again, you're asking not so serious questions I suppose? Would you blame me again if I answer? However, I think it was bad decision to have it tagged as playground=swing/etc instead of playground:swing/etc=yes (similar to recycling:*=yes tagging system). You will be surprised that nobody using this system in Russia. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=recycling%3A ??? That's around 1000 using it already? Put that in contrast with only 2.5k amenity=recycling, I don't think I agree with your claim that nobody would be using it! or mentioned playground schema: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=playground playground=* is significantly newer than e.g. recycling:*=yes and considered micromapping by many. As such, I wouldn't expect very high numbers to appear on it except on very high quality mapped areas. Similarly we don't care about exact tables and their locations or geometries. We need answers to simple questions Where should I leave my child?. We don't care about playground:pencil=yes tagging, it is useless for any purpose. I think that others have given a reasonable answers to this already but you replied to them with ponies. Why did you bring up the ponies then? :-) -- i.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
This topic not about leisure=playground tagging. We need to define 2 ned tags: amenity=kids_area and kids_area=*. Please don't tell us about leisure=playground (it was mentioned in proposal that new tags will be opposite to leisure=playground) or amenity=recycling or recycling:*=* shema (WTF). I think that others have given a reasonable answers to this already but you replied to them with ponies. Why did you bring up the ponies then? :-) You trying to invent useless pointless shema when nobody asked you for this. We need two new tags. We don't need 1 tags for micromapping maniacs. We don't use even 16, http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=playground. We need 2 simple tags that people will actually use. Therefore I provided link about unused playground schema in Russia, but you missed the point. 2014-12-19 14:49 GMT+04:00 Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: Let me highlight something that was said by you(!) in the email I answered to: Do you have tags forplayground=pony? playground=pencils? playground=books? playground=table? playground=horses? If not, there no reason to talk about it in kids_area proposal ...and then you proceed to talk something below that entirely contradicts what you said above?!? On Fri, 19 Dec 2014, Никита wrote: Why not? Is your questions serious? I answered to what I thought that was a serious question from you but you seem to not care about the response in the first place. Do you really want to tag 1000 pencils at 30 tables? Will you update this information from day to day? Will you separate playground:felt-tip pen=yes from playground:pen=yes? Again, you're asking not so serious questions I suppose? Would you blame me again if I answer? However, I think it was bad decision to have it tagged as playground=swing/etc instead of playground:swing/etc=yes (similar to recycling:*=yes tagging system). You will be surprised that nobody using this system in Russia. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=recycling%3A ??? That's around 1000 using it already? Put that in contrast with only 2.5k amenity=recycling, I don't think I agree with your claim that nobody would be using it! or mentioned playground schema: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.ru/search?q=playground playground=* is significantly newer than e.g. recycling:*=yes and considered micromapping by many. As such, I wouldn't expect very high numbers to appear on it except on very high quality mapped areas. Similarly we don't care about exact tables and their locations or geometries. We need answers to simple questions Where should I leave my child?. We don't care about playground:pencil=yes tagging, it is useless for any purpose. I think that others have given a reasonable answers to this already but you replied to them with ponies. Why did you bring up the ponies then? :-) -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 8:27 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: kids_area=* is not about these 4 tags. kids_area=* is disjoint to leisure=playgrounds. Please read proposal. http://www.imenno.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/HD_08.jpg-940x626.jpg - leisure=playground http://www.realkidfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/161.jpg - kids_area=yes http://goidapark.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12.jpg - leisure=playground http://alpindustria.ru/UserFiles/Image/News/Novosib_kidsplace/01.jpg - kids_area=yes http://planeta-sh.by/Image/Uploaded/0.jpg - kids_area=yes http://www.labirint-bookstore.ru/images/upl/tinymce/pages_6_1281101285.jpg - kids_area=yes in shop=books http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6001/vincentventa.c/0_508b4_38a3aef3_XL - kids_area=yes inside leisure=stadium how do you suggest to tag a kids_area? All these examples (but the playgrounds) seem to be attributes to say that a certain feature (like a book shop, a fast food or a stadium) provides a kids_area, but you won't be able to tag where it is (it is implicit mapping). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 11:03 GMT+01:00 Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: However, I think it was bad decision to have it tagged as playground=swing/etc +1, and it is also diverging from how tagging in OSM often works. Typically I'd expect from leisure=playground playground=foo to express that foo is some subtype of a playground, but swing is an element of a playground. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 12:06 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: how do you suggest to tag a kids_area? sorry, forget about this, I overlooked one of the links in the beginning... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
IMO, kids_area=* is prefered when you have bigger feature: name=Joe pub amenity=pub kids_area=yes kids_area:fee=no or explicitly using: amenity=kids_area fee=no operator=Joe pub opening_hours=10-20 2014-12-19 15:06 GMT+04:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 8:27 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: kids_area=* is not about these 4 tags. kids_area=* is disjoint to leisure=playgrounds. Please read proposal. http://www.imenno.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/HD_08.jpg-940x626.jpg - leisure=playground http://www.realkidfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/161.jpg - kids_area=yes http://goidapark.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12.jpg - leisure=playground http://alpindustria.ru/UserFiles/Image/News/Novosib_kidsplace/01.jpg - kids_area=yes http://planeta-sh.by/Image/Uploaded/0.jpg - kids_area=yes http://www.labirint-bookstore.ru/images/upl/tinymce/pages_6_1281101285.jpg - kids_area=yes in shop=books http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6001/vincentventa.c/0_508b4_38a3aef3_XL - kids_area=yes inside leisure=stadium how do you suggest to tag a kids_area? All these examples (but the playgrounds) seem to be attributes to say that a certain feature (like a book shop, a fast food or a stadium) provides a kids_area, but you won't be able to tag where it is (it is implicit mapping). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 12:12 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: IMO, kids_area=* is prefered when you have bigger feature: name=Joe pub amenity=pub kids_area=yes kids_area:fee=no or explicitly using: amenity=kids_area fee=no operator=Joe pub opening_hours=10-20 I think this tagging is generally OK, but I am not sure when a standalone feature is a playground and when it is a kids' area. We should put the focus on defining criteria for distinguishing these two. IMHO the current definition of leisure=playground is flawed [1][2] because it says they were commonly small outdoor areas, therefor implicitly stating that they might also be indoor areas and maybe big. small and big are quite useless attributes because you don't know about the scale or what to compare it to. IMHO we should either require leisure=playground to be outdoor only (and kids' areas as an independent feature to be always at least partly indoor) or make kids' area a feature that is always provided by another feature and cannot stand alone, otherwise there would be useless overlap. We should also explicitly state in playground that it is only about stand-alone features and not for playing areas provided by shops or similar. The current playground definition already includes places with surveillance and which require to pay a fee (suggested keys surveillance and fee). cheers, Martin [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dplayground [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:leisure%3Dplayground#Better_definition ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
otherwise there would be useless overlap It is similar to hotel vs motels. Once you see good hotel you will filter out motels (hostels etc) from hotels. You don't want to classify motels. You want good hotels. We should put the focus on defining criteria for distinguishing these two. Ok, lets try: leisure=playground (usually outdoor), kids_area (almost always indoor, esp in Russia during winter) leisure=playground (poor equipment, often vandal resistant), kids_area (fragile or expensive equipment is not rare) leisure=playground (almost never fee=yes), kids_area (it will cost you directly fee=yes or indirectly fee=no via your prices in restaurant/cafe/pub/stadium) leisure=playground (provided by local municipality), kids_area often provided by commercial company (malls, private kindergartens, hotels) Trust me, there no overlap between: Детская площадка (leisure=playground) Игровая зона для детей (amenity=kids_area) Just try to google these words and you will see real difference between two. 2014-12-19 15:30 GMT+04:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 12:12 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: IMO, kids_area=* is prefered when you have bigger feature: name=Joe pub amenity=pub kids_area=yes kids_area:fee=no or explicitly using: amenity=kids_area fee=no operator=Joe pub opening_hours=10-20 I think this tagging is generally OK, but I am not sure when a standalone feature is a playground and when it is a kids' area. We should put the focus on defining criteria for distinguishing these two. IMHO the current definition of leisure=playground is flawed [1][2] because it says they were commonly small outdoor areas, therefor implicitly stating that they might also be indoor areas and maybe big. small and big are quite useless attributes because you don't know about the scale or what to compare it to. IMHO we should either require leisure=playground to be outdoor only (and kids' areas as an independent feature to be always at least partly indoor) or make kids' area a feature that is always provided by another feature and cannot stand alone, otherwise there would be useless overlap. We should also explicitly state in playground that it is only about stand-alone features and not for playing areas provided by shops or similar. The current playground definition already includes places with surveillance and which require to pay a fee (suggested keys surveillance and fee). cheers, Martin [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dplayground [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:leisure%3Dplayground#Better_definition ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 13:07 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: leisure=playground (usually outdoor), kids_area (almost always indoor, esp in Russia during winter) why can't we get rid of the exceptions (usually, almost always) and state that one is outdoors, the other indoors (if standalone), or one is standalone, the other is part of another feature like a shop. leisure=playground (poor equipment, often vandal resistant), kids_area (fragile or expensive equipment is not rare) not convinced. poor equipment is not my experience for some places, this is really depending on the actual place (overall but not only country, also city and individual playground). leisure=playground (almost never fee=yes), kids_area (it will cost you directly fee=yes or indirectly fee=no via your prices in restaurant/cafe/pub/stadium) almost never=sometimes and indirect fees via prices means you only pay if you buy something (i.e. fee=no). - Not helpful for distinction leisure=playground (provided by local municipality), kids_area often provided by commercial company (malls, private kindergartens, hotels) you would then tag the exact same feature with different main tags, if the operator is public or private? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
state that one is outdoors, the other indoors We speak for new tags now. I don't want to touch old tagging schema (leisure=playground) with over 200K+ uses, there will be even more people who don't see need in kids_area=*. not convinced. poor equipment is not my experience for some places, this is really depending on the actual place (overall but not only country, also city and individual playground). Not truly poor, but you cannot afford TV at playground but you can afford TV for kids_area=yes. Not because you don't have money for TV but because you sane enough to keep TV, pencils, mats, fragile toys indoor. Is there better word to describe it instead of poor? You cannot use plastics and other fragile materials outdoor. We have -40C during winter even for our european part. Even when you use plastics outdoor, you will use not only low temp resistant, but also durable (by durable I mean near vandal resistant). Not helpful for distinction It is not primary distinction but it might help you with particular object among others suggestions and pictures. you would then tag the exact same feature with different main tags, if the operator is public or private? I'm sry, I meant usually by local municipality and usually by commercial companies here I don't think it is possible to define clear difference between hotels/motels or playgrounds/kids_area, but people prefer to classify them instead of distinguishing them by their individual properties (indoor-outdoor, fee-no fee, poor equipment-rich equipement, unclear ownership-most likely commercial company). Instead of 4 or 10 tags in OSM, real people use words: детская площадка (leisure=playground), детская игровая комната(kids_area=*) - this is much simpler and native way to map objects. This will work for short term, since we want to use kids_area. We cannot resolve/refine or define leisure=playground, this task is too heavyweight and out of this proposal. 2014-12-19 16:17 GMT+04:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 13:07 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: leisure=playground (usually outdoor), kids_area (almost always indoor, esp in Russia during winter) why can't we get rid of the exceptions (usually, almost always) and state that one is outdoors, the other indoors (if standalone), or one is standalone, the other is part of another feature like a shop. leisure=playground (poor equipment, often vandal resistant), kids_area (fragile or expensive equipment is not rare) not convinced. poor equipment is not my experience for some places, this is really depending on the actual place (overall but not only country, also city and individual playground). leisure=playground (almost never fee=yes), kids_area (it will cost you directly fee=yes or indirectly fee=no via your prices in restaurant/cafe/pub/stadium) almost never=sometimes and indirect fees via prices means you only pay if you buy something (i.e. fee=no). - Not helpful for distinction leisure=playground (provided by local municipality), kids_area often provided by commercial company (malls, private kindergartens, hotels) you would then tag the exact same feature with different main tags, if the operator is public or private? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Hi! 2014-12-19 13:17 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 13:07 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: leisure=playground (usually outdoor), kids_area (almost always indoor, esp in Russia during winter) why can't we get rid of the exceptions (usually, almost always) and state that one is outdoors, the other indoors (if standalone), or one is standalone, the other is part of another feature like a shop. I would prefer leisure=playground for standalone and kids_area=yes for an additional feature. This seems intuitive to me. Best regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 13:52 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: I would prefer leisure=playground for standalone and kids_area=yes for an additional feature. This seems intuitive to me. +1, I'd see it the same. We could still have amenity=kids_area as well (for explicit mapping of the kids_area, inside the other feature). I wouldn't add secondary criteria to the definition that is only sometimes or usually true. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
-1, there is no reason to tag two identical playgrounds (outdoor, standard set of playground toys) differently just because one is near mall and other not. 2014-12-19 13:59 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 13:52 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: I would prefer leisure=playground for standalone and kids_area=yes for an additional feature. This seems intuitive to me. +1, I'd see it the same. We could still have amenity=kids_area as well (for explicit mapping of the kids_area, inside the other feature). I wouldn't add secondary criteria to the definition that is only sometimes or usually true. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 13:59 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I wouldn't add secondary criteria to the definition that is only sometimes or usually true. That's usually not a good idea, because sometimes a common motorway might also be some kind of runway for something similar to an aeroplane ;-) usually, sometimes co are good for examples but bad for definitions. We should try to avoid those. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-19 14:05 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: -1, there is no reason to tag two identical playgrounds (outdoor, standard set of playground toys) differently just because one is near mall and other not. You are right. But we are not talking about near, we are talking about part of. This is relevant, for example a playground near a mall might be accessible 24/7, but a playground in a mall only when the mall is also open. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
is near mall and other not. -1 to you. You failed to understand proposal/discussion. There a lot more differences beside simply indoor/outdoor criteria. Please read discussion from start. 2014-12-19 17:06 GMT+04:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 13:59 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: I wouldn't add secondary criteria to the definition that is only sometimes or usually true. That's usually not a good idea, because sometimes a common motorway might also be some kind of runway for something similar to an aeroplane ;-) usually, sometimes co are good for examples but bad for definitions. We should try to avoid those. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
we are talking about part of I think we can use this in definition, but lets wait for Dmitry. Here is my point: Definition: (required, must be tagged) kids_area=* - used for areas dedicated for kids within bigger facilities (restaurants, fast_foods, hotels, hospitals, airports, shops) (required, but can be untagged) with opening_hours (defined by specific shop or parent building=* opening hours), (required, but can be untagged) with limited maxstay (see also opening_hours) (recommendation) usually with richer or fragile toys or equipment that cannot be found at regular leisure=playground, (recommendation) almost always indoor (this is 100% true for some countries, but we should let other countries with less demanding climate be more flexible about this tag. If we define it as always indoor there will be people who will simply remove this tag because proposal said this MUST be indoor) You cannot imply opening_hours or maxstay tags because their value will be different from place to place. 2014-12-19 17:09 GMT+04:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: 2014-12-19 14:05 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: -1, there is no reason to tag two identical playgrounds (outdoor, standard set of playground toys) differently just because one is near mall and other not. You are right. But we are not talking about near, we are talking about part of. This is relevant, for example a playground near a mall might be accessible 24/7, but a playground in a mall only when the mall is also open. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19 December 2014 at 14:09, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-19 14:05 GMT+01:00 Mateusz Konieczny matkoni...@gmail.com: -1, there is no reason to tag two identical playgrounds (outdoor, standard set of playground toys) differently just because one is near mall and other not. You are right. But we are not talking about near, we are talking about part of. This is relevant, for example a playground near a mall might be accessible 24/7, but a playground in a mall only when the mall is also open. As I understand you do not need a tag to specify this kind of things. It is automatically/implicitly handled because your POI (node or smaller area) is included in the bigger area. We are in a geographical database and the relative position (inside=part of /OR/ outside) of elements are known. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 01:52:22PM +0100, Martin Vonwald wrote: I would prefer leisure=playground for standalone and kids_area=yes for an additional feature. This seems intuitive to me. Just a quick interjection from a native English speaker. Kids is slang. The proper English term is children. A kid is young goat. Of course, kid is widely used in English, but is not really acceptable in formal English. I have be watching this thread with mild interest and am slightly surprised that no other native English (GB) speaker has raised the point. So childrens_area is probably better. I, for one, would be uncomfortable using a tag kids_area. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Fri, 2014-12-19 at 15:13 +, ael wrote: On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 01:52:22PM +0100, Martin Vonwald wrote: I would prefer leisure=playground for standalone and kids_area=yes for an additional feature. This seems intuitive to me. Just a quick interjection from a native English speaker. Kids is slang. The proper English term is children. A kid is young goat. Of course, kid is widely used in English, but is not really acceptable in formal English. I have be watching this thread with mild interest and am slightly surprised that no other native English (GB) speaker has raised the point. I had spotted it, and was considering brining it up, but had taken it no further than a joke on @talk-gb. So childrens_area is probably better. I, for one, would be uncomfortable using a tag kids_area. +1 Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19/12/2014, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, lets try: leisure=playground (usually outdoor), kids_area (almost always indoor, esp in Russia during winter) leisure=playground (poor equipment, often vandal resistant), kids_area (fragile or expensive equipment is not rare) leisure=playground (almost never fee=yes), kids_area (it will cost you directly fee=yes or indirectly fee=no via your prices in restaurant/cafe/pub/stadium) leisure=playground (provided by local municipality), kids_area often provided by commercial company (malls, private kindergartens, hotels) Trust me, there no overlap between: Детская площадка (leisure=playground) Игровая зона для детей (amenity=kids_area) The key criterias are wether it's indoor or outdoor and wether a fee is required. No need to introduce amenity=kids_area for those. Please don't create another footway vs cycleway vs path dilema. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
just tag the amenity with playground=yes. That doesn't work. We have a 20 km^2 airport. Will you really tag it with a 20 km^2 playground (child_area)? that I feel it's hopeless to try to tag it. For the same reason you prefer hotels over motels or hostels. There many differences but you cannot tag them precisely or decide which properties you will need and which are available in OSM. In the end you will simply search for hotels first and then motels, etc. 2014-12-19 20:40 GMT+04:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: On 19/12/2014, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-19 12:12 GMT+01:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: IMO, kids_area=* is prefered when you have bigger feature: name=Joe pub amenity=pub kids_area=yes kids_area:fee=no or explicitly using: amenity=kids_area fee=no operator=Joe pub opening_hours=10-20 I think this tagging is generally OK, but I am not sure when a standalone feature is a playground and when it is a kids' area. We should put the focus on defining criteria for distinguishing these two. IMHO the current definition of leisure=playground is flawed [1][2] because it says they were commonly small outdoor areas, therefor implicitly stating that they might also be indoor areas and maybe big. small and big are quite useless attributes because you don't know about the scale or what to compare it to. IMHO we should either require leisure=playground to be outdoor only (and kids' areas as an independent feature to be always at least partly indoor) or make kids' area a feature that is always provided by another feature and cannot stand alone, otherwise there would be useless overlap. We should also explicitly state in playground that it is only about stand-alone features and not for playing areas provided by shops or similar. I don't like to fuel this already long thread, but I just want to note that I don't see a need for kid_area, as playgound (with associated tags) can already describe all the usecases. Note that I'm a father of two yound kids, and playgrounds are very important in my day to day life. I agree that an outdoor park playground, a kid-friendly area in a shop, and a purpose-built playground business are very different beasts, but they still all fit within the playground domain by adding playgound:FOO=yes, fee=*, surveillance=*, being located in a building or not, etc. If it's just a minor service in a bigger amenity, just tag the amenity with playground=yes. As a father, I know pretty much all I need by seeing where the playground is located and wether it requires a fee or not. The only other things I need are opening times and website. Mapping individual playground components is fun for the mapper, but fairly useless for the parent (unless the thing is huge or your kid really *can't* enjoy a playground without, say, a climing frame). Whether you can leave your kids there for a while depends on so many things (kid's age, surveillance type, parenting style...) that I feel it's hopeless to try to tag it. The current playground definition already includes places with surveillance and which require to pay a fee (suggested keys surveillance and fee). I plead guilty to recently adding these two suggested tags to the wiki. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19/12/2014, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: Instead of 4 or 10 tags in OSM, real people use words: детская площадка (leisure=playground), детская игровая комната(kids_area=*) - this is much simpler and native way to map objects. This will work for short term, since we want to use kids_area. We cannot resolve/refine or define leisure=playground, this task is too heavyweight and out of this proposal. By any measure, adding a brand new tag is a much more heavy-weight approach than refining an existing and common tag. If you're worried about the barrier of entry, just let people use a single tag. The most important criteria (wether the amenity is indoor or outdoor) and that's already handled by mapping the amenity inside a building or not. The second-most important criteria is the fee, and that's one were both playground and kid_area can have either fee=yes/no values. In contrast, a new tag would just add confusion. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19/12/2014, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: just tag the amenity with playground=yes. That doesn't work. We have a 20 km^2 airport. Will you really tag it with a 20 km^2 playground (child_area)? Tagging playground=yes on an amenity is just intended as a tagging shortcut (like atm=yes), but of course you can map things more precisely. that I feel it's hopeless to try to tag it. For the same reason you prefer hotels over motels or hostels. There many differences but you cannot tag them precisely or decide which properties you will need and which are available in OSM. In the end you will simply search for hotels first and then motels, etc. Indeed, and deciding between hotel/motel/hostel/guesthouse can be a real PITA in OSM. And I don't want to face the same quandary deciding between playground and children_area. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
but of course you can map things more precisely. Exactly this was discussed. And I don't want to face the same quandary deciding between playground and children_area. I'm sorry for inconvenience, shall we remove several countries from OSM so you can easily use single tag you like to see? Cycleways? Motels? What tags should we remove? adding a brand new tag is a much more heavy-weight approach than refining an existing and common tag. Good luck with downloading over 230K+ instances worldwide just to see what was mapped before in places you never visited http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=playground. You are smart, because I feel myself as complete retard then I see all these objects. But you are true hero we need. Please, clarify leisure=playground for us! Define one tags that will suite every single case mapped before for every single application at once! Make proposal about leisure=playground deprecation! It's easy! 2014-12-19 21:06 GMT+04:00 moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com: On 19/12/2014, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: just tag the amenity with playground=yes. That doesn't work. We have a 20 km^2 airport. Will you really tag it with a 20 km^2 playground (child_area)? Tagging playground=yes on an amenity is just intended as a tagging shortcut (like atm=yes), but of course you can map things more precisely. that I feel it's hopeless to try to tag it. For the same reason you prefer hotels over motels or hostels. There many differences but you cannot tag them precisely or decide which properties you will need and which are available in OSM. In the end you will simply search for hotels first and then motels, etc. Indeed, and deciding between hotel/motel/hostel/guesthouse can be a real PITA in OSM. And I don't want to face the same quandary deciding between playground and children_area. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Fri, 2014-12-19 at 17:45 +0100, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: Trust me, there no overlap between: Детская площадка (leisure=playground) Игровая зона для детей (amenity=kids_area) The key criterias are wether it's indoor or outdoor and wether a fee is required. No need to introduce amenity=kids_area for those. Also whether it is for customers or not. A play area in a pub is likely to be free providing the parents are buying food or drink. And please make this childrens_area, kids is a slang word and is not appropriate in formal english, such as OSM tagging. Please don't create another footway vs cycleway vs path dilema. +1 Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Dec 19, 2014, at 9:34 AM, Philip Barnes wrote: And please make this childrens_area, kids is a slang word and is not appropriate in formal english, such as OSM tagging. Unless, of course, it is an area where young goats are kept. :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19/12/2014, Никита acr...@gmail.com wrote: but of course you can map things more precisely. Exactly this was discussed. I was only arguing for using playground + subtags instead of playground vs children_area and noting that playground=yes could be added to the main amenity instead of mapping the playground explicitly (this would also work for children_area=yes as has been suggested elsewhere). Then you say this doesn't work for big amenities (airports), I repeat that it is only an optional shortcut, and you say this is what was being discussed. I wonder why you said it didn't work then ? And I don't want to face the same quandary deciding between playground and children_area. I'm sorry for inconvenience, shall we remove several countries from OSM so you can easily use single tag you like to see? Cycleways? Motels? What tags should we remove? Can't make anything of such an over-the-top comment. adding a brand new tag is a much more heavy-weight approach than refining an existing and common tag. Good luck with downloading over 230K+ instances worldwide just to see what was mapped before in places you never visited http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=playground. Why would anybody want to do that ? Nobody's arguing for a mass-retag. All the currently-existing leisure=playground are fine (AFAIK). Actually, since you bring up the subject, introducing an amenity=children_area could potentially bring up the we need to check all existing playgrounds to see if they should rather be tagged as children_area discussion, which in itself is an argument against children_area. Please, clarify leisure=playground for us! Define one tags that will suite every single case mapped before for every single application at once! Make proposal about leisure=playground deprecation! It's easy! Leisure=playground it is. I certainly don't want to deprecate it. In my view, introducing amenity=children_area *is* deprecating some current usecases of leisure=playground, which is unecessary. Let's try to recap the usecases : * Indoor/outdoor is already inherently mapped with building=* * Size is also inherently mapped. Minor playgrounds inside a small amenity can be tagged on the amenity itself. * Fee, surveillance, opening_hours, max/min_age are standard tags * The kind of activities found in the playground are a factor of indoor/outdoor, fee, and surveillance. * Specific activities can be tagged using playgroud=tv or (better) playground:tv=yes * Wether parents/gardians can leave the kids or not is a factor of too many things to be mappable. Let the parent decide. Did I miss a usecase, an important distinction ? Is it one that justifies adding a new tag, with the associated issues of definition overlap and mapper/renderer/etc uptake ? Or are we just getting confused and talking about different problems ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19/12/2014 15:13, ael wrote: Just a quick interjection from a native English speaker. Kids is slang. The proper English term is children. A kid is young goat. +1. I had been planning at some point to throw that particular spanner in the works. -- Steve --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 19/12/2014 18:02, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: I was only arguing for using playground + subtags instead of playground vs children_area It's childrens_area, not children_area. In normal prose, it would be children's area (possessive, with an apostrophe). I think we generally accept the dropping of apostrophes in keyword tag values. Similarly, the phrase used in the thread subject should actually be kids' areas. -- Steev --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
usually, the purpose of visiting a playground is to, um, visit the playground. The purpose of a play area is (AFIK) a place to deposit the kids while (one of) the adults do something else It is not so simple. Some more interesting play areas also may be target of visit (for example - nearby IKEA have a ball pit, my sister liked to visit it). I think that I would tag this kind of object as leisure=playground. And something that has only loop of Pokemon playing on a TV my be just not tagged or marked as leisure=tv. 2014-12-18 7:03 GMT+01:00 johnw jo...@mac.com: usually, the purpose of visiting a playground is to, um, visit the playground. The purpose of a play area is (AFIK) a place to deposit the kids while (one of) the adults do something else, or as a amenity to a more serious or boring place place where the kids can have their attention taken away. I know there is a place like this in large facilities that have groups of parents who need to park or placate a kid for a while (while adults rest or eat), so knowing where the amenity is sounds good. Some of them are supervised by the employees, so the parents can shop (like ikea does), though I don’t know if that’s considered daycare or babysitting or whatever. And whoever suggested the kindergarten tag, I hope they were being sarcastic. If there was a new amenity tag, and the data customers ignored it, we wouldn’t be losing any kindergartens or playgrounds, so that’s a good thing, right? I don’t want playgrounds or kindergartens popping up in what turns out to be a corner of the mall filled with bright vinyl cubes and a loop of Pokemon playing on a TV. Javbw On Dec 18, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no I agree in general, but the main issue with tagging like this is that I bet most data consumers will just look for leisure=playground and that's it. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Andreas Goss wrote on 2014-12-17 22:41: I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no I agree in general, but the main issue with tagging like this is that I bet most data consumers will just look for leisure=playground and that's it. Yes, and that is the good thing. The general purpose map will just show you a playground icon, without further implementation, and special-purpose maps give you the ability to filter for specific ones. Look at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dclimbing where I'm happy enough if a general map shows me the sport in general, while special-purpose layers can be added for all these details: http://openclimbingmap.bstegmaier.de/#14/48.3899/9.7589 http://martinkoeller.github.io/ClimbingMap/example1.html There you have them all, outdoor, indoor, fees, supervision ... And overpass allows the fast creation of them. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2014-12-17 15:39: I also know a place that might fall into this category: indoor streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8462111,12.4869449,3a,75y,151.95h,69.96t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sq3Z8vG9t0TkAAAQfCNjLlg!2e0!3e2 some pics: http://lnx.gommolandiaroma.it/portal/galleriafoto Perfect indoor playground. leisure=playground (playground:)indoor=yes fee=yes/no On the other hand, it might maybe also qualify as theme park? What is the distinction? Lack of a theme, I'd say, besides playing. tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-18 16:31 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org: On the other hand, it might maybe also qualify as theme park? What is the distinction? Lack of a theme, I'd say, besides playing. well, this one might be squirrels on LSD http://lnx.gommolandiaroma.it/portal/system/files/C1.JPG ;-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no kids_area=* is not about these 4 tags. kids_area=* is disjoint to leisure=playgrounds. Please read proposal. http://www.imenno.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/HD_08.jpg-940x626.jpg - leisure=playground http://www.realkidfriendly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/161.jpg - kids_area=yes http://goidapark.com.ua/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/12.jpg - leisure=playground http://alpindustria.ru/UserFiles/Image/News/Novosib_kidsplace/01.jpg - kids_area=yes http://planeta-sh.by/Image/Uploaded/0.jpg - kids_area=yes http://www.labirint-bookstore.ru/images/upl/tinymce/pages_6_1281101285.jpg - kids_area=yes in shop=books http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6001/vincentventa.c/0_508b4_38a3aef3_XL - kids_area=yes inside leisure=stadium Do you have tags for playground=pony? playground=pencils? playground=books? playground=table? playground=horses? If not, there no reason to talk about it in kids_area proposal I will not use over 70 tags to simply map single kids_area=*. 2014-12-18 19:46 GMT+04:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-18 16:31 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org: On the other hand, it might maybe also qualify as theme park? What is the distinction? Lack of a theme, I'd say, besides playing. well, this one might be squirrels on LSD http://lnx.gommolandiaroma.it/portal/system/files/C1.JPG ;-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Hi Dmitry I did a quick sruvey of some fast food restuarants the local Ikea, I know they all have leisure=playground outside and inside, non of these were mapped. So why haven't we mapped them as leisure=playground? On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Dmitry Kiselev dkise...@osm.me wrote: Hi We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth for kids areas mappings. But sometimes kids area is an independant amenity. I think it would be nice to have amenity to map such features. So here is mine proposal for that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kids_area Looking forward for any comments and suggestions. -- dkiselev Dmitry Kiselev ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- /emj ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Probably we should define kids_area as: leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes playground:supervised=yes - supervised by parents, not by somebody else 2014-12-17 12:49 GMT+04:00 Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com: Hi Dmitry I did a quick sruvey of some fast food restuarants the local Ikea, I know they all have leisure=playground outside and inside, non of these were mapped. So why haven't we mapped them as leisure=playground? On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Dmitry Kiselev dkise...@osm.me wrote: Hi We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth for kids areas mappings. But sometimes kids area is an independant amenity. I think it would be nice to have amenity to map such features. So here is mine proposal for that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kids_area Looking forward for any comments and suggestions. -- dkiselev Dmitry Kiselev ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- /emj ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
I meant playground:supervised=no in last message So why haven't we mapped them as leisure=playground? Playground equipement is very different for outside playgrounds and indoor facilities. Your kids will never watch tv at regular leisure=playground, while amenity=kids_area may have not only tvs not other expensive equipment. We cannot map equipment, this is insane to maintain, but we can classify between leisure=playground and kids_area=*. 2014-12-17 13:32 GMT+04:00 Никита acr...@gmail.com: Probably we should define kids_area as: leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes playground:supervised=yes - supervised by parents, not by somebody else 2014-12-17 12:49 GMT+04:00 Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com: Hi Dmitry I did a quick sruvey of some fast food restuarants the local Ikea, I know they all have leisure=playground outside and inside, non of these were mapped. So why haven't we mapped them as leisure=playground? On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:51 AM, Dmitry Kiselev dkise...@osm.me wrote: Hi We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth for kids areas mappings. But sometimes kids area is an independant amenity. I think it would be nice to have amenity to map such features. So here is mine proposal for that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kids_area Looking forward for any comments and suggestions. -- dkiselev Dmitry Kiselev ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- /emj ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On Wed Dec 17 2014 09:32:05 GMT+ (GMT), Никита wrote: Probably we should define kids_area as: leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes playground:supervised=yes - supervised by parents, not by somebody else And access tags, such as access=customers. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Then I like kids_area when you are mapping a private playground that is closed off without direct public access, mainly because I wouldn't map them as a leisure=playground. About supervision vs. childcare, we have lots of free supervised playgrounds here which do not offer child care, and and I have no experience with staffed child care facilties at malls etc. But for me amenity=kindergarten seems to be an good match to child_care you would have in a mall. On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Wed Dec 17 2014 09:32:05 GMT+ (GMT), Никита wrote: Probably we should define kids_area as: leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes playground:supervised=yes - supervised by parents, not by somebody else And access tags, such as access=customers. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- /emj ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Erik, this gets really messy here. Not mapping a playground as a playground just because of the access? We don't map amenity=parking differently just because of access=customers. We have all the tools already without the need for a new tag, and definitely these shopping centre playgrounds should not be tagged as kindergarten, the latter is a more institutional amenity. leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes or playground:outdoor=yes playground:supervised=yes or no (referring to staff supervision) access=customers Никита wrote on 2014-12-17 10:40: We cannot map equipment, this is insane to maintain Yes we can, see playground=* as approved, e.g. playground=swing tom Erik Johansson wrote on 2014-12-17 14:57: Then I like kids_area when you are mapping a private playground that is closed off without direct public access, mainly because I wouldn't map them as a leisure=playground. About supervision vs. childcare, we have lots of free supervised playgrounds here which do not offer child care, and and I have no experience with staffed child care facilties at malls etc. But for me amenity=kindergarten seems to be an good match to child_care you would have in a mall. On Wed, Dec 17, 2014 at 10:43 AM, Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk wrote: On Wed Dec 17 2014 09:32:05 GMT+ (GMT), Никита wrote: Probably we should define kids_area as: leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes playground:supervised=yes - supervised by parents, not by somebody else And access tags, such as access=customers. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Am 17.12.2014 um 15:11 schrieb Tom Pfeifer: Erik, this gets really messy here. Not mapping a playground as a playground just because of the access? We don't map amenity=parking differently just because of access=customers. We have all the tools already without the need for a new tag, and definitely these shopping centre playgrounds should not be tagged as kindergarten, the latter is a more institutional amenity. +1 leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes or playground:outdoor=yes playground:supervised=yes or no (referring to staff supervision) access=customers indoor=yes and supervised=yes/no work. No need for the subtag construction. We can still think about playground:type=* if we want to distinguish between different subtypes. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-17 15:26 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: +1 leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes or playground:outdoor=yes playground:supervised=yes or no (referring to staff supervision) access=customers indoor=yes and supervised=yes/no work. No need for the subtag construction. We can still think about playground:type=* if we want to distinguish between different subtypes. I also know a place that might fall into this category: indoor streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8462111,12.4869449,3a,75y,151.95h,69.96t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sq3Z8vG9t0TkAAAQfCNjLlg!2e0!3e2 some pics: http://lnx.gommolandiaroma.it/portal/galleriafoto On the other hand, it might maybe also qualify as theme park? What is the distinction? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
About supervision vs. childcare, we have lots of free supervised playgrounds here which do not offer child care, and and I have no experience with staffed child care facilties at malls etc. But for me amenity=kindergarten seems to be an good match to child_care you would have in a mall. I know this tag has been at times contentious in the past, due to cultural and linguistic issues, but some people at least are starting to use amenity=childcare. According to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dchildcare, it's for a place where amenity=kindergarten doesn't seem appropriate, for example because there's no educational component. I think staffed child care at malls (or at Ikea) would be a case where this would apply. Brad ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Yes we can, see playground=* as approved, e.g. playground=swing Most likely because you have no idea what objects will be mapped with new tag kids_area=*. Well please show, show me these tags then: playground=pcroom playground=tv playground=activitytable playground=activitytable playground=globe playground=blackboard playground=mat Go on. Map them. You can map playground=pencil (not pencils) I dare you. But leave kids_area=* tag alone. kids_area=* is not about access, it is clearly separable from leisure=playground by it's equipement. If you cannot separate more advanced playgrounds for kids with tvs, globes, pencils, pc from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Playground_Equipment, that not kids_area problem... 2014-12-17 18:39 GMT+04:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-12-17 15:26 GMT+01:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: +1 leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes or playground:outdoor=yes playground:supervised=yes or no (referring to staff supervision) access=customers indoor=yes and supervised=yes/no work. No need for the subtag construction. We can still think about playground:type=* if we want to distinguish between different subtypes. I also know a place that might fall into this category: indoor streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8462111,12.4869449,3a,75y,151.95h,69.96t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sq3Z8vG9t0TkAAAQfCNjLlg!2e0!3e2 some pics: http://lnx.gommolandiaroma.it/portal/galleriafoto On the other hand, it might maybe also qualify as theme park? What is the distinction? Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Why should we map something, with different kind of activity and different name (at least in russian, serbian and many other cyrillic languages) as a playground? For example hr (sr the same but with cyryllic alphabet): playground https://translate.google.com/#hr/en/igrali%C5%A1te play room https://translate.google.com/#hr/en/igraonica ru, same story: https://translate.google.com/#ru/en/%D0%B8%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0 https://translate.google.com/#ru/en/%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%8F%20%D0%BF%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%89%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B0 play room is word by word google translation, it's netter then playground indor=yes but still isn't good enough because in many cases subj. isn't a room. Wed, 17 Dec 2014 09:43:40 + от Philip Barnes p...@trigpoint.me.uk: On Wed Dec 17 2014 09:32:05 GMT+ (GMT), Никита wrote: Probably we should define kids_area as: leisure=playground playground:indoor=yes playground:supervised=yes - supervised by parents, not by somebody else And access tags, such as access=customers. Phil (trigpoint ) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no I agree in general, but the main issue with tagging like this is that I bet most data consumers will just look for leisure=playground and that's it. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
usually, the purpose of visiting a playground is to, um, visit the playground. The purpose of a play area is (AFIK) a place to deposit the kids while (one of) the adults do something else, or as a amenity to a more serious or boring place place where the kids can have their attention taken away. I know there is a place like this in large facilities that have groups of parents who need to park or placate a kid for a while (while adults rest or eat), so knowing where the amenity is sounds good. Some of them are supervised by the employees, so the parents can shop (like ikea does), though I don’t know if that’s considered daycare or babysitting or whatever. And whoever suggested the kindergarten tag, I hope they were being sarcastic. If there was a new amenity tag, and the data customers ignored it, we wouldn’t be losing any kindergartens or playgrounds, so that’s a good thing, right? I don’t want playgrounds or kindergartens popping up in what turns out to be a corner of the mall filled with bright vinyl cubes and a loop of Pokemon playing on a TV. Javbw On Dec 18, 2014, at 6:41 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote: I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no I agree in general, but the main issue with tagging like this is that I bet most data consumers will just look for leisure=playground and that's it. __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Hi, The obvious question is: why not using leisure=playground? Since the definition in the first link you give says an area where kids can play. Dan 2014-12-15 10:51 GMT+00:00 Dmitry Kiselev dkise...@osm.me: Hi We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth for kids areas mappings. But sometimes kids area is an independant amenity. I think it would be nice to have amenity to map such features. So here is mine proposal for that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kids_area Looking forward for any comments and suggestions. -- dkiselev Dmitry Kiselev ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Playgrounds are usually outdoor facilities, kids playing rooms and areas are usually not. Playgrounds almost newer are supervised by any kind of stuff. Kids areas and rooms, in most cases have employees who takes care of kids. Also there is different kind of activities for playgrounds and such subj. Sometimes such areas have tv-sets with cartoons, or drawing accessories , sometimes there is a teacher and kids could take part in small workshops, crafting something. Main point - there is difference in activities: Playground - go and play active games with kids. Subject - leave kids for a couple of hours in a safety and interesting place and do boring adults businesses. Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:03:26 + от Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: Hi, The obvious question is: why not using leisure=playground? Since the definition in the first link you give says an area where kids can play. Dan 2014-12-15 10:51 GMT+00:00 Dmitry Kiselev dkise...@osm.me : Hi We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth for kids areas mappings. But sometimes kids area is an independant amenity. I think it would be nice to have amenity to map such features. So here is mine proposal for that http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kids_area Looking forward for any comments and suggestions. -- dkiselev Dmitry Kiselev ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: leisure=playground playground:supervised=yes/no playground:outdoor=yes/no playground:indoor=yes/no (btw, using kids_area=both in the older proposal is poor tagging since it is not self-explanatory and limits the list of other values) fee=yes/no etc. Also there is the accepted playground=* tag for equipment, you could add a tv area or crafts station as a value. Dmitry Kiselev wrote on 2014-12-15 12:24: Playgrounds are usually outdoor facilities, kids playing rooms and areas are usually not. Playgrounds almost newer are supervised by any kind of stuff. Kids areas and rooms, in most cases have employees who takes care of kids. Cannot confirm these assumptions. There are lots of indoor playgrounds nowadays, some monster jungle-gyms in halls, which are not supervised by staff, on the other hand there are outdoor playgrounds, e.g. adventure-style, which are supervised for pedagogical or safety reasons. (Experiential education, DE: Erlebnispädagogkik) Also there is different kind of activities for playgrounds and such subj. Sometimes such areas have tv-sets with cartoons, or drawing accessories, sometimes there is a teacher and kids could take part in small workshops, crafting something. Crafts can be done indoors and outdoors. To conclude, playgrounds can scale up and down, independently of being indoors or outdoors. Main point - there is difference in activities: Playground - go and play active games with kids. Subject - leave kids for a couple of hours in a safety and interesting place and do boring adults businesses. Again that varies a lot and having two different tags here make things complicated. Better are sub-descriptions under the same catagory. Mon, 15 Dec 2014 11:03:26 + от Dan S : The obvious question is: why not using leisure=playground? Since the definition in the first link you give says an area where kids can play. +1 tom ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
2014-12-15 13:31 GMT+01:00 Tom Pfeifer t.pfei...@computer.org: I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: Fully agree. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
On 15/12/2014 12:31, Tom Pfeifer wrote: I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: +1 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
I can't agree with you guys. All kinds of facilities where you can rent a bed for a night may be mapped as hotel with tons of sub-tags. But still we have hotels, motels, guest houses, and so on. Even campings offers you some place to sleep and other stuff for money. All kinds of places where you can take some alcohol for money may be tagged as bar with sub-tags But still we have biergartens, pubs, bars etc. Even night clubs may be mapped as bar with dance floor. We have restaurants and cafe, both offers you some food for money. But still you looking for restaurant when you going to make an betrothal, not for ANY place where you can get some food for money. When you going to go to the cinema or do some shopping and you can't take your kids with you, you don't looking for playground, you looking for place like subj. Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:11:54 + от Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com: On 15/12/2014 12:31, Tom Pfeifer wrote: I don't see a need for a new key here. The properties can be easily modelled with sub-tagging of playground: +1 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Mapping of kids areas
Dmitry Kiselev wrote on 2014-12-15 14:52: I can't agree with you guys. All kinds of facilities where you can rent a bed for a night may be mapped as hotel with tons of sub-tags. But still we have hotels, motels, guest houses, and so on. [...] We have restaurants and cafe, both offers you some food for money. First, there are relatively clear definitions what is a hotel vs. motel vs. guest house. For food, the discussion is still ongoing e.g. what characterises fast food. Second, those tags were grown historically, if you started them from scratch you would probably go for something hierarchically, eg. subtagging a general accommodation tag. When you going to go to the cinema or do some shopping and you can't take your kids with you, you don't looking for playground, you looking for place like subj. Well you can look for amenity=playground and playground:supervised=yes, so where is the problem? As said, there is no clear distinction/definition when a place falls in one category or the other. When you introduce a new tag, you force the renderer either to implement the new tag, or to ignore it. If you specify an existing tag, the general purpose renderer can already show it, while the specialised one can display you the details. In your first post you said We have http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Amenity_features#kids_area.3Dno.2Findoor.2Foutdoor.2Fboth for kids areas mappings. You are citing another proposal that considers itself as still in a brainstorming stage, and kids_area is used only 6 times so far. Thus you cannot say we have it already. http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/kids_area#overview ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
