Re: [Tagging] the smallest cathedral in the world [was: Questions on building-tag]

[Bill Ricker]

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 4:22 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> How about this one then? :-)
>
>
> http://ccheadliner.com/news/world-s-smallest-cathedral-
> about-to-close/article_156ea8a8-dbaf-11df-9bd0-001cc4c03286.html
>
>
> A Bishop lived on site & conducted services every day, so it *would* have
> been a cathedral (even though it looks like a garden shed!), so I guess it
> should be tagged that way?
>

and our Wiki even has a denomination=old_catholic which would be correct
for these schismatics.
(Which Wiki entry should, but does not yet, link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_Church . There are much larger
OCC sects than the one with this "cathedral".)


> As it's now closed & been de-consecrated, what should it now be tagged as
> in OSM - building_yes; historic_church, possibly with start & end dates,
> even though it's just in someone's backyard?
>

building=yes
I agree. I wouldn't have called it  building=church even while it was
consecrated by this minor splinter denomination (165 adherents), since as
you say, it's a garden shed used as a chapel and cathedra, not a basilica
with a cathedra​, with or without transept. (I would have inlcuded amenity
for worship, but no longer.)

historic_church -- for expansively small values of historic and church, but
it does rise to Wikipedia's Notability level.

The Building way or point should link either
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Pruter
or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Catholic_Church_(Pruter)
or possibly both.
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Re: [Tagging] the smallest cathedral in the world [was: Questions on building-tag]

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

How about this one then? :-)


http://ccheadliner.com/news/world-s-smallest-cathedral-about-to-close/article_156ea8a8-dbaf-11df-9bd0-001cc4c03286.html


A Bishop lived on site & conducted services every day, so it *would* have
been a cathedral (even though it looks like a garden shed!), so I guess it
should be tagged that way?

As it's now closed & been de-consecrated, what should it now be tagged as
in OSM - building_yes; historic_church, possibly with start & end dates,
even though it's just in someone's backyard?

Thanks

Graeme

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] the smallest cathedral in the world [was: Questions on building-tag]

[Bill Ricker]

Ooh, historic buildings !

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 9:54 AM, althio  wrote:
>> Martin wrote:
> > wikipedia says: "it is known under the moniker the smallest cathedral in 
> > the world"
>
> alt_name:hr=najmanja katedrala na svijetu
> alt_name:en=smallest cathedral in the world
> alt_name:de=kleinste Kathedrale der Welt
> ;)

That looks good, since it's "known as" but isn't formally acting as
the Seat of a See.

There are interesting weeds here.

Per Wikipedia, a former Seat is a "proto-cathedral" (and building
would normally look like and be called Cathedral of XYZ) and a parish
church temporarily used as Seat until the proper cathedral is built is
a "pro-cathedral" for the duration only (and generally NOT look like
or be called cathedral).  It would take detailed historical reading to
determine which was the ancient usage here, although hypothetical
existence of a permanent "cathedra" (throne) in the fabric of the
building would tend towards "proto-" despite not being so named.
 [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral  ].

[ OTOH if it still contains a "cathedra" (throne) and if a Bishop
still celebrated there on even one feast day a year, it could still be
designated by the Archdiocese as a "co-cathedral," but as there is no
Bishop of Nona/Nin -- Ninksky/Nona/Nin now being a Deanery not a
Diocese of the Metropolitan Archdiocese of Zara -- this seems
unlikely, but would be plausible still, depending on their local
traditions. but if it were a co-cathedral in church law, I would
expect to see that reflected in Wikipedia or elsewhere that Google
would find; Wikipedia only lists Konkatedrala sv. Petar Apostola as
the alternate to Katedrala Sv. Dujma (in Split), none in Zara.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-cathedral#Croatia  ]


> > I do not insist and will leave this to the local mappers to decide, 
> > obviously, but I
> > don't think it would be a problem to classify it as cathedral.

> Amen!  :)

I wouldn't argue with local mappers, agreed.

Re building=cathedral -  Our wiki says
"There are other churches as well, which were built with the same
architectural features, but they do not have or never had a bishop,
but they are called cathedrals as well. "
[ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:building%3Dcathedral ]
Reading: We are not reporting on Polity & Hierarchy, but what it is
called, so it would be allowed, if called Cathedral of Saint Soandso
despite not having a bishop.

Likewise, for OSM to "round up" the various rare species
"proto-cathedral" , "pro-cathedral"  , and "co-cathedral" into
tag/value "cathedral" is not unreasonable; we are not tracking
multiple denominations' internal hierachy in real time, just their
signage.  We don't need to shard the value, building=co_cathedral
would be silly. Physically they are identical building styles, the
only difference is how long since the last visit by the bishop, not a
mappable event.

So via our "Map what's on the ground" rule, if it doesn't claim to be
a(n) (ex/proto/pro/co-)cathedral by signage, we don't use the primary
building=cathedral tag but a historical tag, an alt tag, notes, etc.

And indeed the historic plaque says "Church"="Crkva" not Cathedral.
[ 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Cross,_Nin#/media/File:Crkva_sv._Kri%C5%BEa,_Nin_-_plo%C4%8Da.jpg
]

So I'd agree building=church is correct in this case.


The heritage=2 , heritage:operator=uzkb  tags indicate it is a listed
historical/cultural building (as is not surprising).
But this does NOT indicate it is historical-interest only, only that
it is listed for preservation.

There are two remaining issues I'd defer to local mappers:

Is this is still a active church (consecrated, operated by the
Church), or is now a historic building only, having been
deconsecrated, operated by a government or heritage authority.
Hypothetically in the latter case,  the current tagging
  amenity=place_of_worship
would be wrong, as that is not the amenity currently on offer, and it
would be more tourism/history tagged.
(But building=church would still be correct, that's what the fabric
still would be.)

Assuming it is still served by prelates and still provides
amenity=place_of_worship, it should have a
 denomination=roman_catholic
tag.
(Since this is a ninth century church, I could argue that the deprecated
 denomination=catholic
would also be correct, as the church was built before there was a
distinction between denomination=roman_catholic and
denomination=greek_catholic; the Bishop of Nin went with Rome in the
Great Schism of 1054.)

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Re: [Tagging] the smallest cathedral in the world [was: Questions on building-tag]

[althio]

Martin wrote:
> wikipedia says: "it is known under the moniker the smallest cathedral in the 
> world"

alt_name:hr=najmanja katedrala na svijetu
alt_name:en=smallest cathedral in the world
alt_name:de=kleinste Kathedrale der Welt
;)

> I do not insist and will leave this to the local mappers to decide, 
> obviously, but I
> don't think it would be a problem to classify it as cathedral.

Amen!  :)

-- althio

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Re: [Tagging] the smallest cathedral in the world [was: Questions on building-tag]

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-12-20 9:51 GMT+01:00 althio :

> Martin wrote:
>
> > If this building is considered a cathedral I would use the tag.
>
> In the present case, it is not considered a cathedral today.
>


wikipedia says: "it is known under the moniker the smallest cathedral in
the world" and it has been seat of a bishop.


> But even if it was, as said, I won't use building=cathedral and I think it
> is well explained in the wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dplace_of_worship
> at section "Architectural style of buildings"
>
> Function (not form) might be better defined with an administrative-related
> set of tags, such as discussed here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:boundary#Religio
> us_authority_boundaries
> boundary=religious_administration religion=*
> denomination=*
> admin_level=*
>


so what is the "form" of a cathedral?


> > size is not everything, surely you have noticed this is from the nineth
> century?
>
> Well, the Wikipedia page reads: built as a royal chapel, not built as a
> cathedral. It was not considered a cathedral then.
>

Actually it says: "According to a theory from an art historian Mladen
Pejaković" from 2009. I've read the first reference, and it also states
that initially the church was used as an royal chapel in the nineth
century, but since 879 and until 1828 (i.e. for almost 1000 years) it was
seat of the bishop (if I interpret the autotranslation correctly). Not
enough? I do not insist and will leave this to the local mappers to decide,
obviously, but I don't think it would be a problem to classify it as
cathedral.
http://www.zadarskanadbiskupija.hr/?p=4009

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] the smallest cathedral in the world [was: Questions on building-tag]

[althio]

Janko wrote:
> Let me show to you, the smallest cathedral in the world:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Cross,_Nin
>
> It's not the seat of a bishop any more, but it was in the past (and
churches are often called cathedrals even after they lose the status of a
seat of a bishop).

> I wouldn't tag this building=cathedral, even building=church is a bit
much.

I agree "building=*" is better used to describe form (not function).
Looking at this building in photography or real life I will not call it
"probably a cathedral", based on style, shape, size and look.
So no building=cathedral for me neither.

Martin wrote:
> If this building is considered a cathedral I would use the tag.

In the present case, it is not considered a cathedral today.

But even if it was, as said, I won't use building=cathedral and I think it
is well explained in the wiki page
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dplace_of_worship
at section "Architectural style of buildings"

Function (not form) might be better defined with an administrative-related
set of tags, such as discussed here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:boundary#
Religious_authority_boundaries
boundary=religious_administration religion=*
denomination=*
admin_level=*

> size is not everything, surely you have noticed this is from the nineth
century?

Well, the Wikipedia page reads: built as a royal chapel, not built as a
cathedral. It was not considered a cathedral then.


-- althio
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