Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Per]

Now we can see a big discussion, but no one did anything constructive!
One thing is clear, we need a tag to describe the usability of ways.
If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
Smoothness is better than nothing.

Please have a look at and comment on:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Smoothness#Be_constructive.21_Try_to_find_good_alternatives_to_smoothness.21

While Chriscfs objections are valid, he acts ignorant, uncommunicative
and destructive and should be stopped!

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Chriscf

Per


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Richard Fairhurst]

Per-15 wrote:
> If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
> Smoothness is better than nothing.

That's debatable (as well as, er, very_horrible).

Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
the access tags:

bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

so you'd get

highway=bridleway
foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)

It follows the time-honoured OSM principle of "tag as much as you know/can
be bothered to do; crowdsourcing will make the data richer over time".

But I really can't be faffed with explaining this to a bunch of droids on
the wiki who may never have seen a bridleway in their lives but won't let
that stop them voting. 

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Unification of OpenStreetBugs an Trac

[Richard Fairhurst]

Gervase Markham wrote:
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> I'm not sure why the need to reuse existing software at all. Bugtracking
>> is
>> the sort of thing you expect to find in 'Rails For Dummies' as My First
>> Rails App - if you’ve got a decent framework it’s pretty elementary.
>
> As someone who's spent the last nine years working on one, and seen
> several putative competitors arrive and fade (Scarab, anyone?), I'd
> dispute that. You can do simple things simply, yes, but you always find
> you have more requirements than you think.

Sure, but the question - here as in anywhere - is whether you have the same
"more requirements" as the people who wrote the bugtracker.

_Generally_ OSM has found that, for the external-facing stuff, we rarely do
have the same "more requirements". (Clearly our internal-facing stuff like
trac is fairly par for the course; we have a svn repository like any other
open source project.) Famously, OSM rejected the entire classical GIS stack,
and now everyone thinks it's obvious but three years ago they were telling
us we were mad.

Even when we do use something that wasn't invented here, the best fits are
those which were at least partially developed with OSM in mind - from Mapnik
to the ODbL. TBH I wouldn't have even considered this application as a
bug-tracker had the comparison not been made on the mailing list.

Good ol' Joel Spolsky again: "A lot of software developers are seduced by
the old '80/20' rule. It seems to make a lot of sense: 80% of the people
use 20% of the features... Unfortunately, it's never the same 20%. Everybody
uses a different set of features."

Anyway, none of this is getting any code written. :)

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Lester Caine]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Per-15 wrote:
>> If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
>> Smoothness is better than nothing.
> 
> That's debatable (as well as, er, very_horrible).
Agreed
It does not provide a platform to build on at all.

> Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
> the access tags:
> 
> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
> 
> so you'd get
> 
> highway=bridleway
> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
Now that makes perfect sense and fits in with usability.

There IS a need for tagging things like width, height restrictions, and 
even 'steepness', but in the first instance simply getting a good 
coverage everywhere with a basic set of tags is more important than the 
excessive fine detail that is being proposed as 'basic tagging' ?

I don't want to reopen an old debate, but contour lines are ALMOST 
essential around here for determining the severity of a walking route, 
while those routes are well surfaced in places, the change in altitude 
makes some of them impractical for some of us 'less fit' walkers.

> It follows the time-honoured OSM principle of "tag as much as you know/can
> be bothered to do; crowdsourcing will make the data richer over time".
> 
> But I really can't be faffed with explaining this to a bunch of droids on
> the wiki who may never have seen a bridleway in their lives but won't let
> that stop them voting. 
If there was an obvious set of tagging then there would not be a 
problem, but as yet there is nothing proposed that *I* would consider 
provides useful information. Perhaps it is time for secondary data 
projects - like the cycle map - to have thier own set of extra tags that 
are only used for those mapping excercises?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Bernhard Zwischenbrugger]

Hi


bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable

so you'd get

highway=bridleway
foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)


In Vienna we have an event called "Friday Night Skating".
Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal roads.
The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads that 
are for normal for cars only.


The route is about 15 to 25 km.

To plan an event like this is not easy.
It should be a different route every week.
If it's combined with sightseeing it's optimal.

There are similar events in many cities like Paris, Munich,... sometimes 
with much more skaters.


For beginners the road surface is very important.

It should be possible to plan a Friday Night Skate route with data from OSM.

If we have a tag
skate:xy
bicycle:xy
people think it's allowed to go by bike or inline skates on this roads - 
but it isn't.


For more info:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatenight
http://www.nightskating.at
http://www.muenchner-blade-night.de/

Sorry - all in German


Bernhard

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	=0D=0A=
	Bernhard Zwischenbrugger=0D=0A=
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	Add new words as easy as in an Excel Table.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>
> Per-15 wrote:
> > If you don't like smoothness invent a better scheme!
> > Smoothness is better than nothing.
>
> That's debatable (as well as, er, very_horrible).
>
> Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
> the access tags:
>
> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
>
> so you'd get
>
> highway=bridleway
> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
>
> It follows the time-honoured OSM principle of "tag as much as you know/can
> be bothered to do; crowdsourcing will make the data richer over time".


This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice rink
is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).

Having an additional rating per mode of transport seems to make
substantially more sense.

I believe some one else (Matt White) has recently posted a comment, wanting
to know about a 4WD tag, to suggest that only 4WD vehicles would be
suitable. The above approach could easily (and more importantly) and clearly
indicate this.

vehicle:2wd=unsuitable
vehicle:4wd=difficult

For me one of the biggest problems with "smoothness" (other than it being a
terrible name), is that it is a generic tag, and we keep on seeing issues
being raised where "generic tags" are not suitable for specialist
hobbies/areas. We shouldn't be looking to add to this issue.

But I really can't be faffed with explaining this to a bunch of droids on
> the wiki who may never have seen a bridleway in their lives but won't let
> that stop them voting.
>

Further to Lester's comment.

I'm some what amazed that we have not yet split out the tags to the
different groups to allow for specialist tagging, and those that
passionately care about those tags, can monitor that page/list.

We would still want to standardise on a tagging format/method to keep things
consistent.

I would have thought we'd have sections along the lines of (and this is just
off the top of my head)

Buildings
Motorised Vehicles
Rail ways
Footways
Waterways

Cycling
Skiing
Rolerblading


etc etc, caution would need to be taken to not duplicate tags/purposes, and
I am sure we'd still have healthy discussions (arguments) when those
instances rear their ugly head.

But I do not think 1 single page, covering every possible tag makes sense,
if we are looking to be able to tag the entire planet, that page will
quickly become unsuitable.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Richard Fairhurst]

Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
> In Vienna we have an event called "Friday Night Skating".
> Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal
> roads.
> The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads that 
> are for normal for cars only.

You can't design/evolve a tagging system for the entire planet on the basis
of an inline skating event in Vienna. That's insane.

No tagging system will ever cover 100% of cases. But far better to have one
which is 90% comprehensive and 100% intuitive, than 100% comprehensive and
25% intuitive. No-one's stopping you using less mainstream tags for your
OpenSkateMap.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[Claudius Henrichs]

David Earl:
> I've implemented some changes to the experimental UK postcode searches
> in the Namefinder.
>(...)
> 1. you can now search for UK postcode prefixes, e.g. CB21. These are
> just OSM nodes.

Which OSM-tag are you querying there? postcode=x? Do you respect 
addr:postcode according to the Karlsruhe Schema?

Regards,
Claudius


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Robert Vollmert]

On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:02, Bernhard Zwischenbrugger wrote:
> In Vienna we have an event called "Friday Night Skating".
> Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal  
> roads.
> The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads  
> that are for normal for cars only.
>
> The route is about 15 to 25 km.
>
> To plan an event like this is not easy.
> It should be a different route every week.
> If it's combined with sightseeing it's optimal.
>
> There are similar events in many cities like Paris, Munich,...  
> sometimes with much more skaters.
>
> For beginners the road surface is very important.
>
> It should be possible to plan a Friday Night Skate route with data  
> from OSM.
>
> If we have a tag
> skate:xy
> bicycle:xy
> people think it's allowed to go by bike or inline skates on this  
> roads - but it isn't.

Since smoothness=good/excellent handles this fine, I'd suggest to just  
use it.

Cheers
Robert


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/12/1 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Hi
>
>>
>>> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
>>>
>>> so you'd get
>>>
>>> highway=bridleway
>>> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
>>> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
>>> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
>>> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
>>>
>>>
>> In Vienna we have an event called "Friday Night Skating".
> Every week about 1000 Inline Skater meet at 10pm and skate on normal roads.
> The police blocks all the roads an it is possible to skate on roads that
> are for normal for cars only.
>
> The route is about 15 to 25 km.
>
> To plan an event like this is not easy.
> It should be a different route every week.
> If it's combined with sightseeing it's optimal.
>
> There are similar events in many cities like Paris, Munich,... sometimes
> with much more skaters.
>
> For beginners the road surface is very important.
>
> It should be possible to plan a Friday Night Skate route with data from
> OSM.
>
> If we have a tag
> skate:xy
> bicycle:xy
> people think it's allowed to go by bike or inline skates on this roads -
> but it isn't.
>
> For more info:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skatenight
> http://www.nightskating.at
> http://www.muenchner-blade-night.de/
>
> Sorry - all in German
>

If this is an argument in favour of smoothness, then you would run in to
exactly the same problem (just not as fine grained).

If a user see's a road as being tagged as "smooth", then they'd think that
they could roller blade on it, which apparently they are not allowed to.

Here, we run in to a problem where suitability and permissibility are not
going along with each other.

With Richards suggestion you could still have.

bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
bicylcle=no

Though that to me feels ugly, but at least feasable.

Additionally, for now at least, a certain amount of sense has to be assumed,
and that you wouldn't get some one rollerblading down a dual carriage way,
during a normal day, just because a map told them it was smooth.

If they did, then I think they'd be a prime candidate for a Darwin award!
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Robert Vollmert]

2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to  
> extend
> the access tags:
>
> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
>
> so you'd get
>
> highway=bridleway
> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)

The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
exotic from the provided suitabilities.

On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:09, Douglas Furlong wrote:
> This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and  
> Ice rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on  
> it!).

Hurray for absurd arguments. Obviously, 'slippery=yes' is implied on
ice rinks.

I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to  
discredit
smoothness=*. Would one of you that think smoothness is worse than  
nothing
care to comment on the "definition by example" I proposed in
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-November/031779.html
?

Cheers
Robert


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Matt White]

Douglas Furlong wrote:
> 2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
>
>
> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
>
> so you'd get
>
> highway=bridleway
> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
>
>
> This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice 
> rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).
>
> Having an additional rating per mode of transport seems to make 
> substantially more sense.
>
> I believe some one else (Matt White) has recently posted a comment, 
> wanting to know about a 4WD tag, to suggest that only 4WD vehicles 
> would be suitable. The above approach could easily (and more 
> importantly) and clearly indicate this.
>
> vehicle:2wd=unsuitable
> vehicle:4wd=difficult
>
> For me one of the biggest problems with "smoothness" (other than it 
> being a terrible name), is that it is a generic tag, and we keep on 
> seeing issues being raised where "generic tags" are not suitable for 
> specialist hobbies/areas. We shouldn't be looking to add to this issue.
I had a go on the smoothness talk page to simplify the tag somewhat. 
Something along the lines of a simplified 3 tag scope (eg: normal, 
bumpy, rough - or whatever prettier equivalents), where the smoothness 
tag refers to the default vehicle type (I guess car for the main highway 
tags, bike for cycleway, horse for bridle way - you get the picture).

This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle types easily 
- a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the tertiary 
highway type)
smoothness:mtb=bumpy
smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
smoothness:tank=normal (or even "glass like" :-)
smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable

I don't personally like the term "smoothness" either, but I've yet to 
find a decent alternative ("surface" would be nice, but 'tis taken).

The 4WD proposal (plug: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4WD_Only) is a 
little bit separate. It could be taken into account using some sort of 
smoothness, track type, surface, take your pick, but I am specifically 
looking at tracks that are actually signed as 4WD only, to be rendered 
with a nice bit of text at the end of the road name to make it obvious 
what is 4WD only (most decent AU maps of hte country side have explicit 
4WD tags of those roads that require it). Good for routing and the like 
(where the relative smoothness can be a bit subjective)

Matt
 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Robert Vollmert]

On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:15, Douglas Furlong wrote:
> If this is an argument in favour of smoothness, then you would run  
> in to exactly the same problem (just not as fine grained).
>
> If a user see's a road as being tagged as "smooth", then they'd  
> think that they could roller blade on it, which apparently they are  
> not allowed to.
>
> Here, we run in to a problem where suitability and permissibility  
> are not going along with each
> other.

Thus, we put permissibility in one key (skate=yes/permissive/no/...),  
physical
suitability in others (surface=*, smoothness=*, steepness=*,  
slippery=yes/no).
And we don't mix them all in one key.

Smoothness is completely independent of access rights. What gave you  
the idea
it wasn't?

Cheers
Robert


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Richard Fairhurst]

Robert Vollmert wrote:
> The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
> for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
> exotic from the provided suitabilities.

Yes, infer, like we do with every other tag. People realised they didn't
need to tag "bicycle=yes;horse=yes;car=yes" on every road about five minutes
after OSM started. You can still find some of those ways around if you look
hard enough. ;)

> I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to  
> discredit smoothness=*.

It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just impossible. It's
like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.

cheers
Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[David Earl]

On 01/12/2008 10:11, Claudius Henrichs wrote:
> David Earl:
>> I've implemented some changes to the experimental UK postcode searches
>> in the Namefinder.
>> (...)
>> 1. you can now search for UK postcode prefixes, e.g. CB21. These are
>> just OSM nodes.
> 
> Which OSM-tag are you querying there? postcode=x? Do you respect 
> addr:postcode according to the Karlsruhe Schema?

I was going to refer you to the wiki page but I realise I haven't 
documented postcodes there. I will do so now.

It's not using any tags to look up postcodes, and as I said it is only 
*UK* postcodes (which have a distinctive pattern I can search for). 
Also, as I said, it's not dealing with street addresses currently except 
to ignore numbers in key positions so they are harmless if searched for.

UK postcodes as well as being distinctive and recognisable also have the 
problem that they are copyrighted (at least, the database and 
geolocations are), so it is hard to get good coverage using OSM tags 
(because mappers have no means to collect these on the ground and don't 
have access to copyright free sources) and the "freethepostcode" 
initiative, though improving is still quite sparse (and, I noticed when 
processing some of it, is riddled with errors - obvious typos and wildly 
misplaced codes).

As you'll have seen from a few previous messages recently, it is my 
intention to move towards a more comprehensive, international and free 
form search, which does indeed utilise the Karlsruhe schema.

So, sorry if I raised your expectations.

David

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Matt White]

Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Robert Vollmert wrote:
>   
>> I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to  
>> discredit smoothness=*.
>> 
>
> It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
> very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
> hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just impossible. It's
> like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.
>   
Maybe "arsecomfort" would be better than smoothness... you drive down 
the road, and once you reach the end, you can easily determine if your 
backside falls into the "lovely", "a bit sore", "bruised", "haemmoroid 
hell" or "my coccyx is coming out my nose"

Works well for all types of seated vehicles...

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/12/1 Matt White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Douglas Furlong wrote:
> > 2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> >
> >
> > bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
> >
> > so you'd get
> >
> > highway=bridleway
> > foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
> > bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
> > bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
> > bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
> >
> >
> > This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice
> > rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).
> >
> > Having an additional rating per mode of transport seems to make
> > substantially more sense.
> >
> > I believe some one else (Matt White) has recently posted a comment,
> > wanting to know about a 4WD tag, to suggest that only 4WD vehicles
> > would be suitable. The above approach could easily (and more
> > importantly) and clearly indicate this.
> >
> > vehicle:2wd=unsuitable
> > vehicle:4wd=difficult
> >
> > For me one of the biggest problems with "smoothness" (other than it
> > being a terrible name), is that it is a generic tag, and we keep on
> > seeing issues being raised where "generic tags" are not suitable for
> > specialist hobbies/areas. We shouldn't be looking to add to this issue.
> I had a go on the smoothness talk page to simplify the tag somewhat.
> Something along the lines of a simplified 3 tag scope (eg: normal,
> bumpy, rough - or whatever prettier equivalents), where the smoothness
> tag refers to the default vehicle type (I guess car for the main highway
> tags, bike for cycleway, horse for bridle way - you get the picture).


The problem with marking smoothness for the default vehicle type, is that we
are then left in a situation where we still have to map for the non-default
vehicles.

So for a road, smoothness=average, to me would mean  actually nothing at all
to be honest, for example.

London side street, English Motorway, country side road, Irish back road,
Irish main road.

In all of the above a smoothness rating of "average" would be totally
different, and almost certainly have no meaning at all to a Rollerblade.

So, we come back to the same problem of how do we deal with the "fringe"
users, the racing bike riders, the Rollerblades, etc.

Which you cover below.


This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle types easily
> - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
> smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the tertiary
> highway type)
> smoothness:mtb=bumpy
> smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
> smoothness:tank=normal (or even "glass like" :-)
> smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable


I really honestly can't see how the above differs from, for example.

bicycle:mtb=bumpy
bicylce:racing_bicyle=rough
tank=normal
skate:inline=unsuitable,

Other than, we drop smoothness and replace it with the mode of transport in
question.

I would strongly suggest Richards suggestion is ultimately clearer, than the
arbitrary smoothness tag.


> I don't personally like the term "smoothness" either, but I've yet to
> find a decent alternative ("surface" would be nice, but 'tis taken).
>
> The 4WD proposal (plug:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4WD_Only) is a
> little bit separate. It could be taken into account using some sort of
> smoothness, track type, surface, take your pick, but I am specifically
> looking at tracks that are actually signed as 4WD only, to be rendered
> with a nice bit of text at the end of the road name to make it obvious
> what is 4WD only (most decent AU maps of hte country side have explicit
> 4WD tags of those roads that require it). Good for routing and the like
> (where the relative smoothness can be a bit subjective)
>

 Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access restriction or
a suggestion?

I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could you
face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?

If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather see some thing
along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag, which to date I
believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as opposed to suitability,
which are not the same thing at all.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/12/1 Matt White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Robert Vollmert wrote:
> >
> >> I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to
> >> discredit smoothness=*.
> >>
> >
> > It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
> > very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
> > hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just impossible.
> It's
> > like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.
> >
> Maybe "arsecomfort" would be better than smoothness... you drive down
> the road, and once you reach the end, you can easily determine if your
> backside falls into the "lovely", "a bit sore", "bruised", "haemmoroid
> hell" or "my coccyx is coming out my nose"
>
> Works well for all types of seated vehicles...
>

Unfortunately, that would then depend on the quality of seat that one is
placing the arse upon :)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Dave Stubbs]

2008/12/1 Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> 2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to
>> extend
>> the access tags:
>>
>> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
>>
>> so you'd get
>>
>> highway=bridleway
>> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
>> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
>> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
>> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
>
> The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
> for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
> exotic from the provided suitabilities.
>
> On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:09, Douglas Furlong wrote:
>> This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and
>> Ice rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on
>> it!).
>
> Hurray for absurd arguments. Obviously, 'slippery=yes' is implied on
> ice rinks.
>
> I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to
> discredit
> smoothness=*. Would one of you that think smoothness is worse than
> nothing
> care to comment on the "definition by example" I proposed in
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-November/031779.html
> ?


Because the corner cases sometimes express the fundamental problem in
an obvious unsubtle way. Sometimes people point out corner cases just
to be annoying :-)

The reason I think no-one has commented on your definitions is because
they're infinitely better than what was actually being proposed, and
also have virtually nothing to do with what was proposed (they
actually seem to be related to smoothness!). The reason for that is
they describe a number of fairly specific examples, reduce the number
of options, and don't even try to classify the "rougher" examples
which is where most of the contradictions kick in. ie: a couple of
tree roots on a cycle path make it good, lots make it intermediate, no
mention of tanks.

The question most people will come up with is, what do I classify a
cycle path with an intermediate number of bumps as? You'd probably
declare it doesn't matter, which I'd be inclined to agree with. The
worst that happens is that a way spends the rest of its existence
oscillating between the two states. You could probably relate it in
some way to the cat/toast paradox, and if you could figure out a way
to generate electricity from it you'd become rich.

Or introduce a deliberately fuzzy border value like bad/intermediate.
And wait the necessary 20 mins for someone to point out this is
qualitatively different from intermediate/bad.

Anyway, the main problem with definition by example is what happens
when the examples don't fit. This happens surprisingly often. You
basically have two choices, just guess, or introduce a new example for
everyone to argue over.

You're also only defining the value for a specific purpose, which is
generally less useful than objective features which can be used for
many purposes. Of course if you're only interested in the specific
purpose that distinction isn't going to interest you, which is fair
enough.

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Matt White]

Douglas Furlong wrote:
>
> This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle types
> easily
> - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
> smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the
> tertiary
> highway type)
> smoothness:mtb=bumpy
> smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
> smoothness:tank=normal (or even "glass like" :-)
> smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable
>
>
> I really honestly can't see how the above differs from, for example.
>
> bicycle:mtb=bumpy
> bicylce:racing_bicyle=rough
> tank=normal
> skate:inline=unsuitable,
>
> Other than, we drop smoothness and replace it with the mode of 
> transport in question.
>
> I would strongly suggest Richards suggestion is ultimately clearer, 
> than the arbitrary smoothness tag.
>  
I wasn't suggesting it was any better, although I kind of like the core 
key name first (smoothness:vehicletype=*) as it doesn't waste the 
primary tag (and something like skate:inline=unsuitable doesn't actually 
indicate what the why it is unsuitable (too steep, bad surface, high 
traffic volume, idiot weekend cyclistd abound etc.)
>
> I don't personally like the term "smoothness" either, but I've yet to
> find a decent alternative ("surface" would be nice, but 'tis taken).
>
> The 4WD proposal (plug:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4WD_Only) is a
> little bit separate. It could be taken into account using some sort of
> smoothness, track type, surface, take your pick, but I am specifically
> looking at tracks that are actually signed as 4WD only, to be rendered
> with a nice bit of text at the end of the road name to make it obvious
> what is 4WD only (most decent AU maps of hte country side have
> explicit
> 4WD tags of those roads that require it). Good for routing and the
> like
> (where the relative smoothness can be a bit subjective)
>
>
>  Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access 
> restriction or a suggestion?
>
> I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could 
> you face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?
>
> If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather see some 
> thing along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag, 
> which to date I believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as 
> opposed to suitability, which are not the same thing at all.
It is the latter (it is a recommendation) rather than a legal 
restriction. The point of such an explict tag is so that when I'm out 
driving, the map actually shows the 4WD state as text (given that I dont 
think the Garmin I have really has any other way of visually 
distinguishing the road state/vehicle requirement)

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Matt White]

Douglas Furlong wrote:
> 2008/12/1 Matt White <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
>
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> > Robert Vollmert wrote:
> >
> >> I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to
> >> discredit smoothness=*.
> >>
> >
> > It's not about corner cases. It's about usability. Remembering what
> > very_horrible means, or absolutely_smashing, or
> > hhr_you're_my_best_mate_I_feckin_love_you_I_do, is just
> impossible. It's
> > like tracktype all over again, just with silly names.
> >
> Maybe "arsecomfort" would be better than smoothness... you drive down
> the road, and once you reach the end, you can easily determine if 
> your
> backside falls into the "lovely", "a bit sore", "bruised", 
> "haemmoroid
> hell" or "my coccyx is coming out my nose"
>
> Works well for all types of seated vehicles...
>
>
> Unfortunately, that would then depend on the quality of seat that one 
> is placing the arse upon :)
Now you're just being picky... :-)

Matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/12/1 Robert Vollmert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> 2008/12/1 Richard Fairhurst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> Personally I believe the easiest and most flexible thing is just to extend
>> the access tags:
>>
>> bicycle=no|yes|difficult|unsuitable
>>
>> so you'd get
>>
>> highway=bridleway
>> foot=yes (permitted, no problem)
>> bicycle:racer=unsuitable (permitted but not practical)
>> bicycle:hybrid=difficult (permitted but challenging)
>> bicycle:mtb=yes (permitted, no problem)
>>
>
> The obvious problem with this is the massive redundancy. You need to tag
> for every possible form of transport, or infer suitability for something
> exotic from the provided suitabilities.
>
> On Dec 1, 2008, at 11:09, Douglas Furlong wrote:
>
>> This feels like a far more suitable solution, than smoothness (and Ice
>> rink is smooth, but I doubt a racing bike would have much fun on it!).
>>
>
> Hurray for absurd arguments. Obviously, 'slippery=yes' is implied on
> ice rinks.
>
> I do wonder why people are always jumping on the corner cases to discredit
> smoothness=*. Would one of you that think smoothness is worse than nothing
> care to comment on the "definition by example" I proposed in
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2008-November/031779.html
> ?


I've just had a read of this post, and I think my primary concerns are still
present.

My biggest issues is that smoothness varies depending on the vehicle in
question, and as such it's just to vague to really be of use.

If you tag a road with smoothness valid for a car user (what type of car?
4wd big effin thing, or a lotus elise?), then what about a cyclist (and lets
not even start looking at the different types of cyclists!). I just perceive
it to be far to vague to cover the average users of that way, it's got
nothing to do with fringe cases at all.

I think a merger of the two suggestions would make sense.

:=

This allows us to clearly define what is going on, and have it explicitly
relevant to the different vehicle types that would use it.

Yes, certain inference would be required for the majority of locations,
however it DOES allow for specialist tagging for those who care to do it in
those area's, and they would all reside together, and be easily
understandable.

 can also have different definitions based on vehicle
types.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[David Earl]

On 01/12/2008 10:52, David Earl wrote:
> I was going to refer you to the wiki page but I realise I haven't 
> documented postcodes there. I will do so now.

OK, I've done that: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Name_finder#UK_Postcodes

David

PS, there was a bug in the processing of some full postcode searches in 
what I released last night, resulting in a blank page on 
gazetteer.openstreetmap.org or apparently no namefinder result on the 
main osm home page. I fixed this earlier this morning.

David

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[OSM-legal-talk] OSM Foundation / Domains / Trademark

[Jochen Topf]

Any news on that issue? I think a few people here are waiting for an
official statement from Steve and from the foundation.

btw: Just noticed that the osmfoundation.org domain name is also
privately owned. By Andy Robinson in this case.

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Matt White]

Douglas Furlong wrote:
> 2008/12/1 Matt White <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
>
> Douglas Furlong wrote:
> >
> > This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle
> types
> > easily
> > - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
> > smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the
> > tertiary
> > highway type)
> > smoothness:mtb=bumpy
> > smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
> > smoothness:tank=normal (or even "glass like" :-)
> > smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable
> >
>
> the bumpy/rough/unsuitable are just examples, and of course would need 
> further clarification.
>
> But more importantly, they could be dependant on the leading values.
Agreed. That was what I was trying to get to on the Smoothness talk page 
- a horse for courses approach. Probably not very clearly given my 
propensity for prolixia
> I.E. skate:inline, could have totally different values to bicycle:mtb, 
> which could be specified by the enthusiasts that use that form of 
> transport.
>
> I'm not certain why you want smoothness first, ultimately the end user 
> should never REALLY have to know about the order these values per tag, 
> we should be relying on the editors, to have reasonable graphical 
> interfaces to allow for an easy way of ticking boxing and selecting 
> drop downs of relevant values.
>  
More just in keeping with existing tag/sub tag keys like name= and 
name:en= than anything else.
Given a lot of the keys that are currently in use, it's getting close to 
almost requiring a more explicit key/sub key structure (which just leads 
us to needing key:subkey: subsubkey structure :-) )
>
> and renders to render the maps depending on these values.
>
>
> >
> > I don't personally like the term "smoothness" either, but
> I've yet to
> > find a decent alternative ("surface" would be nice, but 'tis
> taken).
> >
>
> > If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather
> see some
> > thing along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag,
> > which to date I believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as
> > opposed to suitability, which are not the same thing at all.
> It is the latter (it is a recommendation) rather than a legal
> restriction. The point of such an explict tag is so that when I'm out
> driving, the map actually shows the 4WD state as text (given that
> I dont
> think the Garmin I have really has any other way of visually
> distinguishing the road state/vehicle requirement)
>
>
> This sounds a bit like tagging for the render, which I believe is 
> frowned upon.
> Having vehicle:4wd=suitable (or what ever), could just as easily be 
> rendered, as a 4wd access tag, however it would fall in to the whole 
> suitableness kinda argument that is going on.
It sort of is tagging for the renderer, although I was only going to 
mark roads that are physically sign posted as 4WD only (thus removing a 
large chunk of subjectivity). It's borderline, and I'll just modify the 
mkgmap script I use for generation of garmin maps for the moment. But 
given that there's a solid barney going on over the smoothness tag, and 
the rack tpye and surface tags both suck and don't really convey the 
meaning... well, who knows. Until then, I guess I have to use something.

I have found some tags kicking around where equipment= was used with 
reference to diff lockers, mud tyres etc. There's only about 10 4WD tags 
in the system so far.

In the long run, it does sound like the 4WD requirement might be a 
fairly specific Australian thing, so it might be more useful if us AU 
mappers agree to something useful and move on from there (note that I'm 
not a big fan of this regional key stuff, but we are stuck with a lot of 
UK-centric tags and icons, so maybe it's a chance to get our own back :-P )
> We need to separate visual representation of features, from how that 
> feature is tagged, as they are not the same thing.
>
> I'd be curious to know from a maintainer of one of the visualisation 
> projects, which they would find easier to work with.
Ditto.

Matt

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM Foundation / Domains / Trademark

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Jochen,

We posted draft board meeting minutes to the OSMF website so you can get up
to date on the workings behind the scenes. We will be doing the same each
month going forwards.

http://foundation.openstreetmap.org/officers-board/board-meeting-minutes/

The osmfoundation.org and stateofthemap.org were both registered by me on
behalf of the Foundation to get the ball rolling, it was just quicker at the
time. Both will be transferred to the OSMF when we get around to sorting the
paperwork.

Cheers

Andy


>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:legal-talk-
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jochen Topf
>Sent: 01 December 2008 11:30 AM
>To: Licensing and other legal discussions.
>Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] OSM Foundation / Domains / Trademark
>
>Any news on that issue? I think a few people here are waiting for an
>official statement from Steve and from the foundation.
>
>btw: Just noticed that the osmfoundation.org domain name is also
>privately owned. By Andy Robinson in this case.
>
>Jochen
>--
>Jochen Topf  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.remote.org/jochen/  +49-721-
>388298
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Douglas Furlong]

2008/12/1 Matt White <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Douglas Furlong wrote:
> >
> > This makes is pretty straightforward to tag for all vehicle types
> > easily
> > - a tertiary road that has a fair few potholes could be
> > smoothness=bumpy (given that car is the primary vehicle for the
> > tertiary
> > highway type)
> > smoothness:mtb=bumpy
> > smoothness:racing_bicycle=rough (or unsuitable)
> > smoothness:tank=normal (or even "glass like" :-)
> > smoothness:rollerblade=unsuitable
> >
> >
> > I really honestly can't see how the above differs from, for example.
> >
> > bicycle:mtb=bumpy
> > bicylce:racing_bicyle=rough
> > tank=normal
> > skate:inline=unsuitable,
> >
> > Other than, we drop smoothness and replace it with the mode of
> > transport in question.
> >
> > I would strongly suggest Richards suggestion is ultimately clearer,
> > than the arbitrary smoothness tag.
> >
> I wasn't suggesting it was any better, although I kind of like the core
> key name first (smoothness:vehicletype=*) as it doesn't waste the
> primary tag (and something like skate:inline=unsuitable doesn't actually
> indicate what the why it is unsuitable (too steep, bad surface, high
> traffic volume, idiot weekend cyclistd abound etc.)


the bumpy/rough/unsuitable are just examples, and of course would need
further clarification.

But more importantly, they could be dependant on the leading values.

I.E. skate:inline, could have totally different values to bicycle:mtb, which
could be specified by the enthusiasts that use that form of transport.

I'm not certain why you want smoothness first, ultimately the end user
should never REALLY have to know about the order these values per tag, we
should be relying on the editors, to have reasonable graphical interfaces to
allow for an easy way of ticking boxing and selecting drop downs of relevant
values.


and renders to render the maps depending on these values.


> >
> > I don't personally like the term "smoothness" either, but I've yet to
> > find a decent alternative ("surface" would be nice, but 'tis taken).
> >
> > The 4WD proposal (plug:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/4WD_Only) is a
> > little bit separate. It could be taken into account using some sort
> of
> > smoothness, track type, surface, take your pick, but I am
> specifically
> > looking at tracks that are actually signed as 4WD only, to be
> rendered
> > with a nice bit of text at the end of the road name to make it
> obvious
> > what is 4WD only (most decent AU maps of hte country side have
> > explicit
> > 4WD tags of those roads that require it). Good for routing and the
> > like
> > (where the relative smoothness can be a bit subjective)
> >
> >
> >  Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access
> > restriction or a suggestion?
> >
> > I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could
> > you face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?
> >
> > If it is the latter as opposed to the former, then I'd rather see some
> > thing along the lines of vehicle:4WD, as opposed to an access tag,
> > which to date I believe is being used to indicate permissibility, as
> > opposed to suitability, which are not the same thing at all.
> It is the latter (it is a recommendation) rather than a legal
> restriction. The point of such an explict tag is so that when I'm out
> driving, the map actually shows the 4WD state as text (given that I dont
> think the Garmin I have really has any other way of visually
> distinguishing the road state/vehicle requirement)
>

This sounds a bit like tagging for the render, which I believe is frowned
upon.

Having vehicle:4wd=suitable (or what ever), could just as easily be
rendered, as a 4wd access tag, however it would fall in to the whole
suitableness kinda argument that is going on.

We need to separate visual representation of features, from how that feature
is tagged, as they are not the same thing.

I'd be curious to know from a maintainer of one of the visualisation
projects, which they would find easier to work with.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Bernhard Zwischenbrugger]

hi

smoothness 

I found a wiki page - but it's in German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zustandserfassung_und_-bewertung

They have a scale from 1 to 5 for "zustandswert":

1.5 : maximum for new roads
3.5 : warning level
4.5 : /"Schwellenwert" - the road must be repaired

/For measuring there is a mashine called "planograph":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planograph

Here a pdf with nice pictures:
http://squadra.net/downloads/Workshop_messtechnische%20Erfassung.pdf

maybe there are similar infos in english - but I couldn't find.


Bernhard
begin:vcard
fn:Bernhard Zwischenbrugger
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note;quoted-printable:liebe Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe=0D=0A=
	=0D=0A=
	Bernhard Zwischenbrugger=0D=0A=
	=0D=0A=
	http://datenkueche.com=0D=0A=
	Multi language online dictionary.=0D=0A=
	Add new words as easy as in an Excel Table.
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end:vcard

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[OSM-talk] aeroway_obstacle Feature Proposal - Voting - Proposed features/aeroway obstacle

[andras . fabian]

After an RFC time of 4 weeks, and no big objections - only some minor 
corrections - I would like to promote this feature request to the Voting. 
Voting starts today 2008-12-01 and will end on 2008-12-15.

Here is the link to the proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/aeroway_obstacle

Thank you very much for your vote!

Andras Fabian
www.alpilotx.de 

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60 Pay TV Sender, einen elektronischen Programmführer mit Movie Star 
Bewertungen von TV Movie. Außerdem, aktuelle Filmhits und spannende Dokus in 
der Arcor-Videothek. Infos unter www.arcor.de/tv

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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[David Earl]

One more thing: UK postcodes have spaces in them: searching for "OX13ld" 
won't work as it won't recognize it as a UK postcode. You need
"OX1 3LD".

However that particular example doesn't work anyway because the 
"address" it tries to find is not helpful. It thinks the word 
"Scientist" is a street name (which it could be, of course) in the 
address lookup, for which it gets in full "First Church of Christ, 
Scientist, Oxford, OX1 3LD"

David


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[OSM-talk] aeroway_obstacle Feature Proposal - Voting - Proposed features/aeroway obstacle

[andras . fabian]

Voting stopped by alpilotx ... Sorry guys. I have completely forgotten to check 
the Talk page. In the first days I didn't get responses and then I was 
believing, I would get automatic notification if I set the page on watch (which 
was obviously not the case). And I got only one response via the mailing list 
... 
So, again sorry for the inconvenience and I will now go back to the RFC state. 
I will see if I can clean up the - partially - valid objections from the Talk. 

Andras Fabian
www.alpilotx.de

Jetzt komfortabel bei Arcor-Digital TV einsteigen: Mehr Happy Ends, mehr 
Herzschmerz, mehr Fernsehen! Erleben Sie 50 digitale TV Programme und optional 
60 Pay TV Sender, einen elektronischen Programmführer mit Movie Star 
Bewertungen von TV Movie. Außerdem, aktuelle Filmhits und spannende Dokus in 
der Arcor-Videothek. Infos unter www.arcor.de/tv

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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[Shaun McDonald]

Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or  
ways in the osm data?


Shaun
On 1 Dec 2008, at 12:16, David Earl wrote:

One more thing: UK postcodes have spaces in them: searching for  
"OX13ld"

won't work as it won't recognize it as a UK postcode. You need
"OX1 3LD".

However that particular example doesn't work anyway because the
"address" it tries to find is not helpful. It thinks the word
"Scientist" is a street name (which it could be, of course) in the
address lookup, for which it gets in full "First Church of Christ,
Scientist, Oxford, OX1 3LD"

David


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smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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[OSM-talk] Using OSM data with JAVA

[Jan Torben Heuer]

Hi, I hope this is the right place for my question.

I want to use OSM data for a routing client. I therefore need the streetdata. I 
heard that OSM can be accessed via postgresql (where I hope find the streets 
data in) and I found a WMS that could give a nice map background.

Do you know of similar projects? Or do you know an easier way?


Thanks,

Jan


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[OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
users signing up each day hasn't changed much.

Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
Students returning to studies?

If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

Cheers

Andy

[1]
"http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical";


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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[David Earl]

On 01/12/2008 12:40, Shaun McDonald wrote:
> Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or 
> ways in the osm data?

No: see my earlier reply to someone else who asked exactly the same 
question.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[Dave Stubbs]

2008/12/1 David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 01/12/2008 12:40, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>> Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or
>> ways in the osm data?
>
> No: see my earlier reply to someone else who asked exactly the same
> question.
>


I'm guessing what's confusing people is where you're getting the
postcode data from.

So just quickly, that's:

 - full post code search: Google search on postcode looking for
address -> Namefinder search on address

 - prefix search, or post code used as area limiter:
http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/namefinder/postcodeprefix.sql

The only question remaining being, where does that SQL file come from?
NPE maps, free the postcode etc I presume?

Dave

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Re: [OSM-talk] Using OSM data with JAVA

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Jan Torben Heuer wrote:
> Hi, I hope this is the right place for my question.

No, definitely not. There is a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list and a
[EMAIL PROTECTED] list, both of which would be more suitable than
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> I want to use OSM data for a routing client. I therefore need the
> streetdata. I heard that OSM can be accessed via postgresql

This is wrong; you can only import OSM data into a postgres instance of 
your own, you cannot access someone else's postgres.

Check out "traveling salesman" (-> wiki.openstreetmap.org, use search) 
which is a working routing application in Java; I'm sure you can use 
that as a starting point. There are also non-Java routing 
implementations (gosmore and navit most notably) and a routing web 
service that is written in Java but wher the source is not (yet) 
available (www.openrouteservice.org).

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[80n]

In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
please? ;)


On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
> contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
> users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
>
> Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
> Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
> Students returning to studies?
>
> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
>
> Cheers
>
> Andy
>
> [1]
> "http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical";
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Postcode searches in Namefinder

[David Earl]

On 01/12/2008 13:45, Dave Stubbs wrote:
> 2008/12/1 David Earl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> On 01/12/2008 12:40, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>>> Does the namefinder use any postcodes that have been added to node or
>>> ways in the osm data?
>> No: see my earlier reply to someone else who asked exactly the same
>> question.
>>
> 
> 
> I'm guessing what's confusing people is where you're getting the
> postcode data from.
> 
> So just quickly, that's:
> 
>  - full post code search: Google search on postcode looking for
> address -> Namefinder search on address

Correct. And there's three potential pitfalls there: (a) the postcode 
simply isn't listed, (b) it is listed but the address with it is wrong 
or misleading, (c) I am unable to parse the accompanying address or 
perhaps worse I parse it wrongly.

>  - prefix search, or post code used as area limiter:
> http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/sites/namefinder/postcodeprefix.sql
> 
> The only question remaining being, where does that SQL file come from?
> NPE maps, free the postcode etc I presume?

Correct (though I added the names of the post towns by web searching 
where I didn't know them anyway).

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[D Tucny]

Think creatively... It doesn't just have to be roads... Have you done every
house number? All road widths? All restrictions? Smoothness (/me ducks)? ;)
d

2008/12/1 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
> please? ;)
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
>> contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
>> users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
>>
>> Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
>> Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
>> Students returning to studies?
>>
>> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
>> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> [1]
>> "http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical
>> "
>>
>>
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Donald Allwright]

>In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads 
>please? ;)

I think you'll find that if you start mapping footpaths, it'll at least partly 
solve the problem. Footpaths, by definition, cannot (legally) be cycled on so 
you have to do them on foot. Which means your number of miles mapped per hour 
of mapping drops off to a much lower level. You'll feel you've wasted your time 
the first time you see the results, but that feeling soon goes. :-)

Donald


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Dave Stubbs]

2008/12/1 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
> please? ;)


There's the whole world of addresses open to you + you could always
move house :-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Chris Browet]

2008/12/1 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
> please? ;)
>

Indeed, I think that the stat doesn't say much. In "crowded" areas like
Germany or UK, there will be a time where there won't be anything left to
map.

The real interesting stat is to see what is happening in areas where there
is still much to do, but that would need to take the location of the users
and the "density" of the map into account.

- Chris -
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Ed Loach]

Andy asked:

> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has
> now stopped
> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I've not stopped as such, but there are a number of factors that
mean I can't contribute as much as I did initially.

When I started mapping I went out for about an hour each evening
after work capturing the local roads using GPS and then mapping them
when I got home. There were a lot to do. I can't do that now
because:

* It's dark by the time I finish work
* Most of the local roads are done, so an hour doesn't really give
me the time to get any roads that need tracing and back

So now I'm limited to taking strange routes to get from A to B to
try and add POIs, which in terms of number of points contributed
will be much fewer. Oh, and I had three hours on Saturday free that
I spent driving around Harwich, Dovercourt, and Parkeston, adding
the details to the map on Sunday though someone had helpfully traced
many of my Saturday uploaded GPX tracks already so I really just had
to apply tags in most cases and add the POIs from the photos
imported against the relevant track in JOSM.

I would guess that many of the well populated areas may have similar
issues, in that they need to go further afield now to map. The new
contributors won't be evenly distributed across the planet
(unfortunately), so many of them will find that if they live in well
populated areas much of the stuff will be mapped.

I'll be back in Dovercourt on Wednesday evening and in Wheatley and
Oxford on Thursday afternoon/evening/Friday morning but while I'll
take the GT-31 with me I doubt I'll find much to add new while I'm
there, though looking at the UK A roads project pages I might be
able to find a route to take in the A120 around Braintree, though
need to check that it hasn't already been done and the wiki page not
updated.

Ed

PS: Just seen the other responses which suggest mapping footpaths
and house numbers. It's something I've considered, and indeed I did
a few footpaths one evening when walking into town, but again you
can't really get far if you have an hour to get there and back, plus
it is now dark and cold(er) in the evenings. 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Elena of Valhalla]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I have almost stopped mapping in the latest month or two for a couple
of reasons:

* less light in the evening: I can't see/take a pic of street names
when returning home in the evening, especially if it is also raining
and/or foggy
* rain and a little snow: not exactly something that encourages
outdoor activities :) (but wait for some decent snow and I will be
back mapping :) )
* a few other reason that prevented me from having free time for mapping

anyway, it's just temporary, I've already had a couple abstinence
crisis, so I hope to be back mapping soon :)

-- 
Elena of Valhalla

homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [OSM-talk] Coordinate in wiki page

[Andy Allan]

I've no idea where that template comes from - is it a wikipedia thing?
Very few wikipedia templates have been also copied onto the
openstreetmap wiki.

 In answer to your second question, yep, most links are hardcoded
simple urls, but you might want to consider either embedding a map
(see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Slippy_Map_MediaWiki_Extension
) or a place sidebox (see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Creating_city_pages#Using_a_template_to_create_the_page_text
)

Cheers,
Andy

2008/11/30 Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Hi
>
> I tried this:
>
> {{Coordinate|article=/|NS=48.054048|EW=14.705797|type=city|region=AT-03}}
>
> But ist does not work.
>
> How to make a link to the map? Hardcoded?
>
>
> Bernhard
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] XAPI relations query returns only nodes

[David Carmean]

The queries that failed were attempts to find all relations of 
any type, so .../api/0.5/relation[type=*][bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
or .../api/0.5/relation[bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0] 
only returned nodes.



On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 07:34:52PM +, 80n wrote:
> David
> I just tested it with /api/0.5/relation[type=route] and the response looked
> ok.  Plenty of relation elements.
> 
> What query did you actually use?
> 
> 80n
> 
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:09 PM, David Carmean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >
> > I recently ran a XAPI query for relations, which returned only nodes and
> > not the
> > relations themselves.  Not very useful, I'd say :)
> >
> > XAPI queries for ways have also been returning associated relations.
> >
> > Any XAPI developers on the list?
> >
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[John McKerrell]

On 1 Dec 2008, at 14:56, Elena of Valhalla wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> [...]
>> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now  
>> stopped
>> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

My mapping has been really sporadic this year as I don't have anything  
particularly local to work on. I did go out for a big 3 hour session  
at the weekend so hopefully that'll help to turn the graph around :-)

John

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Donald Allwright wrote:
>Sent: 01 December 2008 2:13 PM
>To: 80n; talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?
>
>>In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more
>roads please? ;)
>
>I think you'll find that if you start mapping footpaths, it'll at least
>partly solve the problem. Footpaths, by definition, cannot (legally) be
>cycled on so you have to do them on foot. Which means your number of miles
>mapped per hour of mapping drops off to a much lower level. You'll feel
>you've wasted your time the first time you see the results, but that
>feeling soon goes. :-)

At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of "no cycling" on urban
footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)

Seriously though, last winter I added the local unpaved public footpaths
that fingered out into the countryside around me. I'll be doing more this
winter but then that will have about wrapped them up. 

I reckon I have one more season of mapping to the north of Birmingham
(Walsall, Brownhills, Cannock and Lichfield etc) before like some other
contributors I'll need to refocus my mapping or move house. I'm already
mapping 10 miles from home and it really isn't justifiable to map further
out.

The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of our
planet

Cheers

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Donald Allwright]

>At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of "no cycling" on urban
>footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)

Unfortunately the mud doesn't, which if Saturday is anything to go by would 
have been a bit too much for my non-mountain bike :-)

>The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
>nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of our
>planet

Last winter I spent many dark evenings tracing the jungle rivers and mountain 
lakes in Peru from the yahoo satellite images. The vast majority of this will 
be nigh-on impossible to map using a GPS, so I considered this to be a useful 
contribution in an area previously mostly empty (OSM-wise). Some of these have 
probably never been mapped to this level of accuracy before. And I still 
haven't finished yet (Lakes are only about half-way up the country, and most of 
the coastal rivers still need doing), so I reckon that'll keep me going this 
winter. Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of water unmapped, so that would be 
something you could consider. I'm sure there are many other parts of the world 
with similar needs. As urban areas lend themselves well to on-the-ground 
mappers with GPS devices these are better left to locals who can gather street 
names, but even here I reckon there's room for basic mapping of major highways 
from satellite, as that will form a
 framework around which people on the ground can organise their own mapping. 
For example people might decide to map completely a square enclosed by roads, 
rivers etc., but unless these features are already on the map it's harder to 
plan something like this. When I actually got to visit one such road I was able 
to adjust it on the basis of GPS data, thus improving the accuracy.

Donald



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Igor Brejc]

How about covering your area with land use data using yahoo/landsat? 
It's something I do occasionally at the end of the work day when I'm 
totally exhausted - it's a nice dumb work which helps my brain turn off. 
And it comes handy for various hiking maps (example of my area: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.5045&lon=15.534&zoom=12&layers=0B00FTF).

Anyway, I find mapping footpaths in forests much more interesting than 
plain old residential streets and roads - fewer people tend to cover 
them and sometimes it turns out be a real adventure - getting lost or 
meeting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wild_Boar_Habbitat_3.jpg

Not to mention the health benefits ;)

Igor

Donald Allwright wrote:
>
> >At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of "no cycling" on urban
> >footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)
>
> Unfortunately the mud doesn't, which if Saturday is anything to go by 
> would have been a bit too much for my non-mountain bike :-)
>
> >The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
> >nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of our
> >planet
>
> Last winter I spent many dark evenings tracing the jungle rivers and 
> mountain lakes in Peru from the yahoo satellite images. The vast 
> majority of this will be nigh-on impossible to map using a GPS, so I 
> considered this to be a useful contribution in an area previously 
> mostly empty (OSM-wise). Some of these have probably never been mapped 
> to this level of accuracy before. And I still haven't finished yet 
> (Lakes are only about half-way up the country, and most of the coastal 
> rivers still need doing), so I reckon that'll keep me going this 
> winter. Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of water unmapped, so that 
> would be something you could consider. I'm sure there are many other 
> parts of the world with similar needs. As urban areas lend themselves 
> well to on-the-ground mappers with GPS devices these are better left 
> to locals who can gather street names, but even here I reckon there's 
> room for basic mapping of major highways from satellite, as that will 
> form a framework around which people on the ground can organise their 
> own mapping. For example people might decide to map completely a 
> square enclosed by roads, rivers etc., but unless these features are 
> already on the map it's harder to plan something like this. When I 
> actually got to visit one such road I was able to adjust it on the 
> basis of GPS data, thus improving the accuracy.
>
> Donald
>
> 
>
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>   


-- 
http://igorbrejc.net


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[graham]

80n wrote:
> In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more 
> roads please? ;)

Surrey is finished??!! Congratulations, I missed that!

I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely 
unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I 
know ;-)

Graham





> 
> 
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> 
> The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
> contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
> users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
> 
> Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
> Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
> Students returning to studies?
> 
> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now
> stopped
> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy
> 
> [1]
> "http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical";
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Erik Johansson]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Donald Allwright
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of
> water unmapped, so that would be something you could consider. I'm sure
> there are many other parts of the world with similar needs

It's very common in Bolivia at least that river have very different
water levels, is there  a tag for this? Usually you have a large
riverbed and then a very small river running in the middle for most
part of the year, and then sometimes it will flood all the way up to
the riverbanks.


-- 
/emj

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Igor Brejc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Sent: 01 December 2008 3:57 PM
>To: Donald Allwright
>Cc: Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists); 80n; talk@openstreetmap.org
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?
>
>How about covering your area with land use data using yahoo/landsat?
>It's something I do occasionally at the end of the work day when I'm
>totally exhausted - it's a nice dumb work which helps my brain turn off.
>And it comes handy for various hiking maps (example of my area:
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=46.5045&lon=15.534&zoom=12&layers=0B00FTF
>).
>
>Anyway, I find mapping footpaths in forests much more interesting than
>plain old residential streets and roads - fewer people tend to cover
>them and sometimes it turns out be a real adventure - getting lost or
>meeting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Wild_Boar_Habbitat_3.jpg
>
>Not to mention the health benefits ;)

This really depends on where you live. If you live in a major city then you
don't have much option but to map residential streets. Otherwise it's a
special trip out to the countryside. Not something you can easily do in a
lunch hour or after work.

A few locations excepted (eg the USA) the majority of urban conurbations
don't have Yahoo aerial imagery. Landsat is fine for generality but isn't
detailed enough to be of any use whatsoever in an urban sprawl. You get much
better results from detailed on the ground mapping in these instances.

Landsat is however a great starting point for blank areas of the map,
especially were water is present. Perhaps we should all strive to pick an
area of the world and add what we can from Landsat. Would be a useful drive,
especially for those that don't much like tracing Yahoo! or those that use
JOSM and find displaying Yahoo! a faff.

Cheers

Andy

>
>Igor
>
>Donald Allwright wrote:
>>
>> >At 9:00am on a Sunday morning, the meaning of "no cycling" on urban
>> >footpaths mysteriously disappears :-)
>>
>> Unfortunately the mud doesn't, which if Saturday is anything to go by
>> would have been a bit too much for my non-mountain bike :-)
>>
>> >The real challenge as has been pointed out is the white space without a
>> >nearby contributor. Especially in the sparsely populated locations of
>our
>> >planet
>>
>> Last winter I spent many dark evenings tracing the jungle rivers and
>> mountain lakes in Peru from the yahoo satellite images. The vast
>> majority of this will be nigh-on impossible to map using a GPS, so I
>> considered this to be a useful contribution in an area previously
>> mostly empty (OSM-wise). Some of these have probably never been mapped
>> to this level of accuracy before. And I still haven't finished yet
>> (Lakes are only about half-way up the country, and most of the coastal
>> rivers still need doing), so I reckon that'll keep me going this
>> winter. Bolivia and Brazil still have a lot of water unmapped, so that
>> would be something you could consider. I'm sure there are many other
>> parts of the world with similar needs. As urban areas lend themselves
>> well to on-the-ground mappers with GPS devices these are better left
>> to locals who can gather street names, but even here I reckon there's
>> room for basic mapping of major highways from satellite, as that will
>> form a framework around which people on the ground can organise their
>> own mapping. For example people might decide to map completely a
>> square enclosed by roads, rivers etc., but unless these features are
>> already on the map it's harder to plan something like this. When I
>> actually got to visit one such road I was able to adjust it on the
>> basis of GPS data, thus improving the accuracy.
>>
>> Donald
>>
>> 
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>--
>http://igorbrejc.net
>
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
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>5:53 PM


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

graham wrote:
>Sent: 01 December 2008 4:07 PM
>To: osm
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?
>
>
>I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely
>unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I
>know ;-)

What part? How Big? Is it available for a mapping party :-)

Cheers

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Donald Allwright]

>It's very common in Bolivia at least that river have very different
>water levels, is there  a tag for this? Usually you have a large
>riverbed and then a very small river running in the middle for most
>part of the year, and then sometimes it will flood all the way up to
>the riverbanks.

I have take the approach that the 'river' is the part where vegetation doesn't 
grow. A lot of the time much of this won't actually be underwater, but the 
actual channel within the riverbed will change very rapidly, possibly with 
every flooding, whereas the river bed itself will change less rapidly (but 
still rapidly enough that, say, 10 years down the line it will be significantly 
different). This is also relatively easy to tell from even low-res satellite 
imagery - unless the river bed has green mud of course! Looked at another way, 
the vegetation is there because that area hasn't had a flood severe enough to 
wash it away, at least within the timespan it takes for the vegetation to grow.

Having said that, if anyone can think of a better way of doing this I'm open to 
suggestions. I think in reality though the concept of 'edge of the river' is 
fairly ill-defined in areas where it hasn't been interfered with by mankind, in 
much the same way as the location of a coastline changes. The fact is that the 
coastline oscillates nearly twice a day, and low-water and high-water are 
merely approximations that allow us to put something on a map. You wouldn't 
want to build a house between the two lines though.

Donald


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Inge Wallin]

On Monday 01 December 2008 13:59:32 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
> The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
> contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
> users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
>
> Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
> Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
> Students returning to studies?

I'd say winter.  It's definitely the case for me (Sweden) and if you look at 
the statistics you will find exactly the same dip during the same period last 
year.

> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I haven't actually stopped, it's just slowed down.  But I imagine others that 
could stop temporarily.

-Inge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[John07]

Inge Wallin schrieb:
> On Monday 01 December 2008 13:59:32 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
>   
>> The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
>> contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
>> users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
>>
>> Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
>> Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
>> Students returning to studies?
>> 
>
> I'd say winter.  It's definitely the case for me (Sweden) and if you look at 
> the statistics you will find exactly the same dip during the same period last 
> year.
>   
Yes, the weather is one issue.  But i would love it to map in a 
snow-covered landscape :-)

Jonas


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[sylvain letuffe]

On Monday 01 December 2008 15:00, 80n wrote:
> In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
> please? ;)
+1
And I don't care about street numbers
-- 
Sylvain Letuffe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
qui suis-je : http://slyserv.dyndns.org



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Aun Johnsen]

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:25:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Donald Allwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Bolivia and Brazil still have
>a lot of water unmapped, so that would be something you could consider.

When I have time on hand and no survey data, such as during slow hours at
work, I trace lakes and rivers in the Brazilian state of Espirito Santo
using landsat in JOSM. This area have pure Yahoo satellite coverage so
there is a shortage of high resolution data to work with. When I have no
more tracable data to work with in Espirito Santo, than I will continue on
other states. There are enough water in Brazil to keep us trace for
decades to come.

My general survey is also somewhat limited as I do not have a car, and the
areas closest to home is getting close to completed. Still working on
putting in amenities, but this also goes slow due to the fact that I
forget bringing notebooks, so I have to remember names and locations.
Things are slowly coming into the map though. Also, at times I load ALL my
GPX tracks into JOSM to see if there is a detail I have overlooked, or if
a road can be adjusted.

In other words, I am still working, still sporadic only. Saving money for
a car though.

-- 
Brgds
Aun Johnsen
(Over Web Mail)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Gervase Markham]

Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Gervase Markham wrote:
>>> Most of all since we're growing exponentially and even if we had 90% of 
>>> mappers agree on something today, in two or three months those 90% would 
>>> perhaps only form 30% of the community...
>> This is actually an argument _for_ Map_Features and some sort of
>> meritocracy, not against.
> 
> It was intended as an argument *against* binding votes. Anything that is 
> carried by a (even vast!) majority today might be a minority opinion a 
> few months later.

But all of those new people generally have far less mapping, OSM and
tagging experience than the older people. Which means that if you don't
have some sort of binding (or at least, highly recommended) set of tags
created by those with more experience, different people will make the
same newbie mistakes over and over again when it comes to thinking up tags.

Lots of other projects (e.g. Wikipedia) have a regular flux of
newcomers. They don't seem to think that this stops them making policy,
or having experienced people making decisions about style or the way of
doing things and then having them enforced. The pseudo-egalitarianism of
"the opinion of everyone who is involved has equal weight" is a recipe
for either deadlock or anarchy. No project - commercial or volunteer,
large or small - runs itself that way.

Gerv


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Alex Mauer]

Douglas Furlong wrote:
> My biggest issues is that smoothness varies depending on the vehicle in
> question, and as such it's just to vague to really be of use.

No it doesn't.  It's not like a paving machine runs just ahead of every
off-road vehicle, making the road smoother for them.  The smoothness of
the way is the same, whether you're using inline skates, or a tank.

The vehicle is just a tool for measuring the smoothness.

At one end of the scale, you have a perfectly smooth ride (or at least
the best the vehicle can give), no matter what vehicle you're in.

At the other end, you have total unsuitability for all but a few vehicles.

> If you tag a road with smoothness valid for a car user (what type of car?
> 4wd big effin thing, or a lotus elise?),

Did you even read the smoothness key page?  It clearly defines different
values for each of them.  If it's usable in the former, it's at worst
smoothness=horrible.  If it's usable in the latter, it's at worst
smoothness=intermediate.

There is no smoothness "valid for a car user".  "bad" is usable by a
"normal car", intermediate is usable by a "sports car".  (I consider the
Elise a sports car).

> then what about a cyclist (and lets
> not even start looking at the different types of cyclists!). I just perceive
> it to be far to vague to cover the average users of that way, it's got
> nothing to do with fringe cases at all.

There is no generic "cyclist".  It depends on type of bicycle they're
using.  And smoothness takes that into account.  A mountain bike (and a
suitably skilled rider, presumably) can use routes that a racing bike
cannot.

> specialist tagging for those who care to do it in
> those area's

That's not what the smoothness key attempts to accomplish.  What it
attempts to do is give a simple, single-key estimate of how rough/smooth
a road or path is.  The various vehicle types are there only to give
examples of what sort of vehicles can be expected to tolerate a given
class of road (and to say how a road which can be tolerated by a given
vehicle should be classified).

Are there perhaps two different sets of expectations for the smoothness
key?  On the one hand, there are people who expect something like
mtb:scale and sac_scale, where it defines the quality or difficulty of a
given route for a given vehicle type.  And on the other hand, there are
people who just want to know how smooth the route is (based on what
vehicles can handle it), and can judge from there whether they're
willing to take their vehicle down it.  I think the smoothness key is
currently based around the latter, and that the objections come from the
former.

-Alex Mauer "hawke"



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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[80n]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 80n wrote:
> > In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more
> > roads please? ;)
>
> Surrey is finished??!! Congratulations, I missed that!
>


To clarify, my immediate area is complete in every direction as far as I can
go before meeting another area that is already mapped. And by complete I
mean all everything down to post boxes but not as far as house numbers.

As far as Surrey is concerned all towns and large villages are fairly well
mapped.  I don't think we can declare it finished yet but it's not far off.

I don't know how other counties are doing.  Are any others near to
completion?

80n


>
> I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely
> unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I
> know ;-)
>
> Graham
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> >
> > The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
> > contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of
> new
> > users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
> >
> > Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
> > Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
> > Students returning to studies?
> >
> > If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now
> > stopped
> > could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > [1]
> > "
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical";
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> > ___
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

80n wrote:
>Sent: 01 December 2008 5:38 PM
>To: graham
>Cc: osm
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?
>
>On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:07 PM, graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>   80n wrote:
>   > In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some
>more
>   > roads please? ;)
>
>
>   Surrey is finished??!! Congratulations, I missed that!
>
>
>
>
>To clarify, my immediate area is complete in every direction as far as I
>can go before meeting another area that is already mapped. And by complete
>I mean all everything down to post boxes but not as far as house numbers.
>
>As far as Surrey is concerned all towns and large villages are fairly well
>mapped.  I don't think we can declare it finished yet but it's not far off.
>
>I don't know how other counties are doing.  Are any others near to
>completion?


Rutland of course still needs a lot of the rural highways and bridleways
adding but is otherwise in good shape from the previous mapping party.

Probably next up will be Cheshire which Chris Morley, Richard Bullock and
others have been steadily knocking off.

Cheers

Andy


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[OSM-talk] State of the Map 2009 - Update

[Nick Black]

Hello,

Here's a quick update on the planning of the State of the Map 2009:

Proposals: We've received 3 proposals to host the conference in 2009 from
Gran Canaria, Amsterdam and Trento (Italy)

Working Group: Following last week's board meeting we established a working
group to deal with the State of the Map 2009 organisation.  The working
group consists of Nick Black (Chair) - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mike
Collinson - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Coast -
[EMAIL PROTECTED], Richard Waeit - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Andy Robinson
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Etienne ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will be
looking after the finances from the OSM Foundation's stand point.  I will
get in touch with other volunteers once the organisation process propper
gets under-way.  The SOTM Working Group's role will be to coordinate and
assist the organisation efforts of the local group.

Timeline: Unfortunately we will not be announcing the host candidate today,
as per the schedule.  A decision will be made by the working group by the
15th December.  The SOTM09 working group will be meeting to discuss the
proposals over the next two weeks, so you'll be able to book your flights
before christmas.

Thanks,

-- 
Nick Black

OpenStreetMap Foundation
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Matt Amos]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Inge Wallin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Monday 01 December 2008 13:59:32 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
>> The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
>> contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
>> users signing up each day hasn't changed much.
>>
>> Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
>> Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
>> Students returning to studies?
>
> I'd say winter.  It's definitely the case for me (Sweden) and if you look at
> the statistics you will find exactly the same dip during the same period last
> year.

i've just had a look at the statistics for POIs mapped and road length
mapped over the past 12 months in the UK and Germany. i can't see any
dip last year. but then our winters don't compare to sweden's :-)

however, the recent drop-off in mappers correlates very nicely with
the fall in non-business sunshine hours. and is slightly correlated
with mean daytime temperature (at least in the UK).

>> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
>> could share the reasons I might help shed some light.
>
> I haven't actually stopped, it's just slowed down.  But I imagine others that
> could stop temporarily.

i've pretty much stopped - the flash on my camera drains the battery
too quickly for night-time mapping...

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Gour]

> "Andy" == Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

Hi Andy,

Andy> If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now
Andy> stopped could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

I got my 1st GPS (76CSx) few days ago and do not own bike (yet),
although preparing the house in the country-side where we'll move in 4
months. The whole area as well as 'my' country is not covered much, so
I'm looking forward to start working (aka: contributing) to OSM project.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 

Gour  | Zagreb, Croatia  | GPG key: C6E7162D



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[OSM-talk] Reuse of Ordinance Survey maps

[paul youlten]

http://spatialnews.geocomm.com/dailynews/2008/nov/17/news4.html

;-)
-- 
Tel: +44(0) 7814 517 807

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Charlie Echo]

All the reactions we received seem to indicate that you found the right reasons 
in your original mail.

I just take this opportunity to add one suggestion: we should try to "convert" 
Linux users to OSM mappers.
Many Linux users would like to take part in the Open-source wave, but don't 
know how to code. I'm convinced that these forces could be used for mapping.
So instead of biking in the cold, let's discuss with them in the warm...

- Mail Original -
De: "Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
À: "osm" 
Envoyé: Lundi 1 Décembre 2008 13:59:32 GMT +01:00 Amsterdam / Berlin / Berne / 
Rome / Stockholm / Vienne
Objet: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

The latest charts are now online [1] and they show that the number of
contributors has dropped in the last couple of months. The number of new
users signing up each day hasn't changed much.

Is it the northern hemisphere winter kicking in?
Has the credit crunch or fuel prices made a difference?
Students returning to studies?

If anyone out there who was contributing in the summer and has now stopped
could share the reasons I might help shed some light.

Cheers

Andy

[1]
"http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats#Database_Statistics_-_Graphical";


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[OSM-talk] Reuse of Ordinance Survey maps

[paul youlten]

http://spatialnews.geocomm.com/dailynews/2008/nov/17/news4.html

;-)

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Hi!

Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> The problem with the notesapi branch is not that it's the same
> database but just that it takes the wrong approach to doing things
> within that database.
> 
> For the record my preference would very much be for this to be a
> rails based system within the current database.

I am definitely in favour of a rails based system, too. When you said
"within the current database" did you mean implementing it using nodes
and ways or just placing some more tables within the current database?

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Hi!

Bernhard Zwischenbrugger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> What about defining the API first?

Yes, at least before starting some serious programming. My basic idea
for the api was to allow to add, search/filter, and modify bug reports
through a RESTful controller. The search/filter output should be able
to provide rss feeds to enable watching an area for changes and new
bugs. 
I haven't really thought about email or jabber notifications. At the
moment I am just thinking of hooking some notification classes into the
main api. These can then send out what ever type of notification is
requested (text messages on your mobile depending on your current
location?).

> And before defining the API we need the use cases.

I tried to put some use cases on the proposal page already. Feel free
to add more (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bugtracker_proposal).

> An other thing I would like to see are bug reports in XMPP (Jabber)
> Network. Think about a map that shows you a new report without
> polling. People could discuss immediately in a small chat window
> about this bug. Scalability shouldn't be a problem with XMPP.

Such a system might be an interesting job to set up. It could probably
be implemented as a transport for jabber that impersonates each bug
report with a new user. Everyone who has added one of these "users" to
their roster gets all messages other people send to this "user". Another
option would be some multi-user chat but I cannot really image how to
do this.

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Christoph Böhme]

Hi!

"Andy Robinson \(blackadder-lists\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> I reckon I have one more season of mapping to the north of Birmingham
> (Walsall, Brownhills, Cannock and Lichfield etc) before like some
> other contributors I'll need to refocus my mapping or move house. I'm
> already mapping 10 miles from home and it really isn't justifiable to
> map further out.

Perhaps we should cancel the push to finish Birmingham and have only
very small crumbles from the remaining cake so that it lasts longer? If
we only do two or three streets every other weekend it could last for
another year. :-)

Cheers,
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Christoph Böhme wrote:
> > That sounds good. I will see at the weekend if it really is a piece
> > of cake. Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side
> > code from osb for a web-based client-side interface?
> 
> Before you get all cranked up writing something new, be sure to check 
> out the "notes API" branch in SVN, where something OSB-like has been 
> attempted in rails already. I don't know by whom and what the status
> is but I'm sure you will find out.

Thanks, I will have a look at it. I did a bit to much mapping at the
weekend and only managed to install the rails port. However, at the
moment I am a bit confused anyway and not sure what I am going to
implement.

> > Especially it would not help anyone if bug reports
> > contain different information depending which user interface was
> > used to add them to the database. Just imagine the situation where
> > a user adds a bug through the web interface and a mapper requests
> > the bugs with JOSM. Both pieces of software need to use the same
> > model of information in the report and the same concept of how to
> > process the bug report.
> 
> This is very short-sighted - coming from someone who has worked with 
> OSM! Who are you to know in advance what cool ideas the writers of
> bug tracking software might have? Just because you cannot think of
> anything beyond "severity", "class" and "comment" doesn't mean nobody
> else can. Let the writers of software decide, do not constrain them
> by your limited imagination.
>
> If someone comes up with a cool new tag the makes reporting and
> handling bugs much easier, then let him do that and write his own
> cool interface for it. If it works well then others will copy the
> idea. By postulating that everyone will have to work with the
> smallest common denominator, you are killing off creativity.
> 
> It's ok to have a few suggested standard attributes like severity and
> so on, but never close the door to enhancements.

I should have excepted this reply ;-) and I have to admit I was quite
focused on developing just a bugtracker and nothing more. Though, I
did not assume I could write the ultimate bug tracking application
that would never need to be extended or accompanied by other tools. My
argument was basically that changes will not happen as often in a bug
tracker as they do for mapping. So, I assumed it would be sufficient to
be able to change the table definitions in the database if new ideas pop
up. But after thinking about this for a while now I can actually see
no advantage of structured bug reports compared to tagged ones. So,
let's go for the tagging approach!

There is only one (technical) question remaining: If we use the same
tagging scheme we could as well store the bug reports directly in the
main database instead of setting up additional tables. The only
problems I can see with this are: 
 - Notifications when new bugs are added
 - How to handle file attachments (through an additional api?)
 - Changesets in api 0.6 (I do not like the idea of creating a
   new changeset for every single bug)

Perhaps this questions should better be asked on dev?

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Xav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Christoph Böhme a écrit :
> > Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side code from 
> > osb for a web-based client-side interface?
> 
> If it is a moral question : of course.
> If it is a technical question : 50% of the code has to be rewriten.

Fine, it would at the very least give us something to start with. 

> But when I proposed the use of tags, I thought about the 
> clients-developper :
> 
>   - I want the simplier interface with only lat/lon/date, two bug 
> states, and a text. I do not want a crapy interface with 30 text
> areas and 60 combo-boxes
> 
>   - Someone will desire to add a zoom level for each bug, the email
> of the authors, and three bug states
> 
>   - Someone else will want a reference to the OSM data, the diameter
> of the area that the bug describes, the age of the mother of the
> author, etc.
> 
> The tag=value schema does all this.
> And, as the OSM end-user clients (like Mapnik, [EMAIL PROTECTED], routing
> softwares), there are only small pieces of the data that are rendered
> depending of the choice of the rendered.

As I wrote earlier, I made my mind up about the tagging scheme and I
think it is probably the best solution.

 > I do not think that it would be the best idea to put images in the 
> database besides it is technically possible with a classical
> database ; I do not know about OSM database. An URL to a solid file
> seems to me much more efficient.

True. It only means that there need to be an additional api for
uploading files which works smoothly together with the main api.
 
Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal for a map-bug tracker (Openstreetbugs)

[Christoph Böhme]

Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> Christoph Böhme wrote:
> > That sounds good. I will see at the weekend if it really is a piece
> > of cake. Would it be possible to reuse and extend the client-side
> > code from osb for a web-based client-side interface?
> 
> Before you get all cranked up writing something new, be sure to check 
> out the "notes API" branch in SVN, where something OSB-like has been 
> attempted in rails already. I don't know by whom and what the status
> is but I'm sure you will find out.

Thanks, I will have a look at it. I did a bit to much mapping at the
weekend and only managed to install the rails port. However, at the
moment I am a bit confused anyway and not sure what I am going to
implement.

> > Especially it would not help anyone if bug reports
> > contain different information depending which user interface was
> > used to add them to the database. Just imagine the situation where
> > a user adds a bug through the web interface and a mapper requests
> > the bugs with JOSM. Both pieces of software need to use the same
> > model of information in the report and the same concept of how to
> > process the bug report.
> 
> This is very short-sighted - coming from someone who has worked with 
> OSM! Who are you to know in advance what cool ideas the writers of
> bug tracking software might have? Just because you cannot think of
> anything beyond "severity", "class" and "comment" doesn't mean nobody
> else can. Let the writers of software decide, do not constrain them
> by your limited imagination.
>
> If someone comes up with a cool new tag the makes reporting and
> handling bugs much easier, then let him do that and write his own
> cool interface for it. If it works well then others will copy the
> idea. By postulating that everyone will have to work with the
> smallest common denominator, you are killing off creativity.
> 
> It's ok to have a few suggested standard attributes like severity and
> so on, but never close the door to enhancements.

I should have excepted this reply ;-) and I have to admit I was quite
focused on developing just a bugtracker and nothing more. Though, I
did not assume I could write the ultimate bug tracking application
that would never need to be extended or accompanied by other tools. My
argument was basically that changes will not happen as often in a bug
tracker as they do for mapping. So, I assumed it would be sufficient to
be able to change the table definitions in the database if new ideas pop
up. But after thinking about this for a while now I can actually see
no advantage of structured bug reports compared to tagged ones. So,
let's go for the tagging approach!

There is only one (technical) question remaining: If we use the same
tagging scheme we could as well store the bug reports directly in the
main database instead of setting up additional tables. The only
problems I can see with this are: 
 - Notifications when new bugs are added
 - How to handle file attachments (through an additional api?)
 - Changesets in api 0.6 (I do not like the idea of creating a
   new changeset for every single bug)

Perhaps this questions should better be asked on dev?

Christoph

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[graham]

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:

> 
> Rutland of course still needs a lot of the rural highways and bridleways
> adding but is otherwise in good shape from the previous mapping party.
> 
Oh my sister lives in a village up there if I can take the bike up with 
me at Christmas I can have a look around.. Lots of hills to go up and 
down after flat London. And I know some of the bridleways already..

Graham


> Probably next up will be Cheshire which Chris Morley, Richard Bullock and
> others have been steadily knocking off.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Andy
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[William Gresham]

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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[graham]

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) wrote:
> graham wrote:
>> Sent: 01 December 2008 4:07 PM
>> To: osm
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?
>>
>>
>> I've just realised - I have a house to let in a beautiful largely
>> unmapped part of Italy and was wondering where to find customers. Now I
>> know ;-)
> 
> What part? How Big? Is it available for a mapping party :-)
> 

http://informationfreeway.org/?lat=42.45526825544973&lon=13.927090173991406&zoom=17&layers=BF000F

The area is Abruzzo.

Penne (my town) itself is 'done' - except that a lot is guesswork as the 
streets are too narrow to get a good signal and you have to do it from 
odd points.

None of the other small towns in the area are even started. We've just 
about done the 'A' roads but lots of the others are undone.

For the rest of Abruzzo: one person has done Pescara (the capital, on 
the coast) and one Montesilvano, which joins on to it. One person is 
doing Lanciano further south, and one just started on L'Aquila (the 
other big town), but all the other towns the same size as Penne (eg. 
Chieti, Citta Sant Angelo, Atri) are still to do. There's another person 
in osm with a house to let near Teramo (also not mapped), about 40km 
north of Penne but the road between is so wiggly it makes me feel ill..

It's a very hilly area, you need to be fit if you're cycling (and I 
don't have a bike there) - but loads of little kids go shooting up the 
hills, cycling is a big sport in the area. Obviously it's flatter near 
the coast; the mountain has a huge plateau on top with trails and horse 
trekking routes - not in winter though. There is a lot of scope for 
walking mapping round small old towns, and for driving mapping round 
country roads.

My place has one double-bedroom, one with two single beds, one living 
room with sofa bed, two bathrooms. For a mapping party I'd have to cover 
my (fairly minimal) costs but have convinced my missis we could do it 
without charging otherwise, as long as it isn't in the really peak season.

There is an english lady in Penne who runs a B&B and does walking tours 
- she is grumbling about the lack of available printed maps to give her 
customers, and I was hoping to get round to doing a contour map and 
experimenting with putting one of her walking routes on it. She might be 
very amenable to letting her B&B (actually a floor in an old palazzo) be 
used if she knew she might be getting something like that back from it..

Cheers
Graham

> Cheers
> 
> Andy
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[maning sambale]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 10:00 PM, 80n <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In my case I've run out of stuff to map.  Can someone build some more roads
> please? ;)

We need more volunteers in Metro manila ;)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=14.594717284692324&lon=121.03235961646361&zoom=11

You have two options:
1. Visit us and start cycling our roads.  It sunny here and there's no winter.
2. Yahoo!



cheers,
maning




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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war on the wiki "map features"

[Stephen Hope]

>
>  Where you have the sign post for 4WD only, is that an access restriction or
> a suggestion?
>
> I.E. If you go on that road with a motorbike, or a 2wd vehicle, could you
> face prosecution? Or would you just be considered a bit foolish?
>

It's a warning, not a restriction.  I regularly take my 2WD on one of
these roads, every time I visit my aunt. On the other hand, I'm only
going about 2 kilometres, I know I can handle that bit of the road as
long as it isn't raining so hard the surface has turned to porridge,
and the really bad parts are past her house. I've gotten a few odd
looks from 4WD drivers going the other way (passing isn't easy,
either), but no one's ever tried to stop me.

On the other hand, some of these roads are hundreds of kilometres
long, with possible fords/flooding, steep hills, bad ruts, and no
inhabitants to turn to for help. I wouldn't want to take a single 4WD
on those roads, let alone a 2WD.

Stephen

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[OSM-talk] GIS bigwigs taking notice of openstreetmap

[maning sambale]

Just noticed this:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/James%20Fee/diary/4223

James Fee of http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com,
now contributing to Openstreetmap.  The heavyweights of geoblogging
are here!  Welcome!

Can't wait for Dr. Tomlinson, Goodchild and Burrough to chime in. ;)

cheers,
maning
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Re: [OSM-talk] XAPI relations query returns only nodes

[80n]

David
Both these queries seem to work ok when I try them.

The actual URLs I used were:
wget
http://osm.bearstech.com/osmxapi/api/0.5/relation[type=*][bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]which
returned a file of 107,839,289 bytes containing 485,694 nodes, 46,128
ways and 1,238 relations.

And:
wget
http://osmxapi.hypercube.telascience.org/api/0.5/relation[bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
which returned 108,617,239 bytes containing 489,529 nodes, 46,373 ways and
1,264 relations.

What did you get?  Is it possible your results got truncated in some way?

80n

On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 2:59 PM, David Carmean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> The queries that failed were attempts to find all relations of
> any type, so .../api/0.5/relation[type=*][bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
> or .../api/0.5/relation[bbox=-124.0,36.75,-121.0,39.0]
> only returned nodes.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 07:34:52PM +, 80n wrote:
> > David
> > I just tested it with /api/0.5/relation[type=route] and the response
> looked
> > ok.  Plenty of relation elements.
> >
> > What query did you actually use?
> >
> > 80n
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 4:09 PM, David Carmean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I recently ran a XAPI query for relations, which returned only nodes
> and
> > > not the
> > > relations themselves.  Not very useful, I'd say :)
> > >
> > > XAPI queries for ways have also been returning associated relations.
> > >
> > > Any XAPI developers on the list?
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> > >
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Where have all the contributors gone?

[Karl Eichwalder]

"Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> This really depends on where you live. If you live in a major city then you
> don't have much option but to map residential streets. Otherwise it's a
> special trip out to the countryside. Not something you can easily do in a
> lunch hour or after work.

Yes, but it depends.  In most German cities public transport systems are
not that bad.  With a bus or lightrail or even riding your bike it does
not take more than 15 or 30 minutes you are in the woods (sad story,
riding additional 15 or 30 minutes you will reach the next village or
town...).

> A few locations excepted (eg the USA) the majority of urban conurbations
> don't have Yahoo aerial imagery.

Yahoo just recently started to serve more images in the Northern Bavaria
(Franconia).  It's worth checking from time to time.

-- 
Karl Eichwalder

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