Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
2009/12/13 Anthony : > If geodata is not copyrightable, then Share Alike is meaningless. The > original work is public domain, and the modified work is also public domain. Assuming public domains is a valid option, which isn't valid in all jurisdictions. Even where PD is valid if you modify it and choose a license which can be upheld it is no longer PD any more. > The point is, whichever way it's decided, it'll be the same for the modified > data as it is for the original data. If the OSM database is not > copyrightable, neither will the modified database be. If the OSM database > is copyrightable, then the modified database must be. Just because certain copyrights don't exists in some jursidictions doesn't mean they aren't valid in others. Which is the whole reason for ODBL, because geodata may not be considered copyrightable in some areas a new method of enforcing the same thing CC-BY-SA is needed. > ODBL is trying to enforce requirements beyond "If you alter, transform, or > build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the > same or similar license to this one." Most significantly, a requirement to > "offer to recipients of the Derivative Database or Produced Work a copy in a > machine readable form of [...] The Derivative Database (under a.) or > alteration file (under b.)". That is not at all a requirement of CC-BY-SA. > It is something completely new that is being added, which IMO makes things > less free, not more free. I'm still waiting for proper legal advice in an Australia context, however I agree with what I think is trying to be achieved by ODBL, but the devil is in the details. > If you'd prefer that, fine. But please be honest about this - the ODbL is > more than just a more enforceable version of the spirit of CC-BY-SA. The How is this different than the requirements of the GPL where you need to make changes available if you distribute binaries? > requirements go beyond requiring derivative works to be licensed under the > same license. Most significantly, the ODbL requires people to offer copies > of any derivative databases that are used in the making of the final > derivative work. Among other things, that means having to keep copies of > such databases, something which is not always done (if I want to alter the > database, render tiles, and then throw out the altered database, I'm not > able to do that, because I have to offer people copies of the altered > database). Again, this is no different than requirements of GPL software. There is no way everyone is going to be happy as a result of this, that's human nature, people are influenced and motivated by various things, a lot of people agree with the GPL, at lot of people don't which is why you end up with others using BSD and other similar licenses. In the case of commercial mapping companies since they don't distribute their raw data requiring them to distribute changes only if you distribute raw data is almost meaningless so I can see why some people see this as a good thing, I can also see why such commercial companies would dislike such a requirement. If you want to push your data as PD that's fine, tag the change set as PD when you upload and problem solved then such data can be extracted regardless what other data is licensed as then everyone is happy, of course this only counts in countries that have a notion of PD otherwise people in those countries wouldn't be able to use such data either. Ain't it grand having lawyers make laws? :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 12:32 AM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/12/13 Anthony : > > If CC-BY-SA can enforce what? Attribution? If geodata isn't > copyrightable, > > then it doesn't matter if the derivative works are released under > CC-BY-SA. > > CC-BY is attribution, CC-BY-SA is Attribution with Share Alike. > And what does Share Alike mean? "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one." If geodata is not copyrightable, then Share Alike is meaningless. The original work is public domain, and the modified work is also public domain. > While geodata might not be, the meta data should be imho, but I'm not > a lawyer nor profess to be, and it would take legal action to actually > settle it one way or the other and that is on a per jurisdiction > basis. > The point is, whichever way it's decided, it'll be the same for the modified data as it is for the original data. If the OSM database is not copyrightable, neither will the modified database be. If the OSM database is copyrightable, then the modified database must be. ODBL is trying to add extra legal layers to CC-BY-SA by not relying on > just copyright to enforce the SA part. > ODBL is trying to enforce requirements beyond "If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one." Most significantly, a requirement to "offer to recipients of the Derivative Database or Produced Work a copy in a machine readable form of [...] The Derivative Database (under a.) or alteration file (under b.)". That is not at all a requirement of CC-BY-SA. It is something completely new that is being added, which IMO makes things less free, not more free. If you'd prefer that, fine. But please be honest about this - the ODbL is more than just a more enforceable version of the spirit of CC-BY-SA. The requirements go beyond requiring derivative works to be licensed under the same license. Most significantly, the ODbL requires people to offer copies of any derivative databases that are used in the making of the final derivative work. Among other things, that means having to keep copies of such databases, something which is not always done (if I want to alter the database, render tiles, and then throw out the altered database, I'm not able to do that, because I have to offer people copies of the altered database). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
2009/12/13 Anthony : > If CC-BY-SA can enforce what? Attribution? If geodata isn't copyrightable, > then it doesn't matter if the derivative works are released under CC-BY-SA. CC-BY is attribution, CC-BY-SA is Attribution with Share Alike. While geodata might not be, the meta data should be imho, but I'm not a lawyer nor profess to be, and it would take legal action to actually settle it one way or the other and that is on a per jurisdiction basis. ODBL is trying to add extra legal layers to CC-BY-SA by not relying on just copyright to enforce the SA part. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 12:12 AM, John Smith wrote: > 2009/12/13 Anthony : > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:56 PM, John Smith > > wrote: > >> > >> That's the issue I have, I have no problem giving back to the > >> community, but I don't want commercial companies just sucking up all > >> the data and not giving hardly anything back in return if they extend > >> the map, it's not fair to me or anyone else who chooses to donate our > >> time for "the greater good". > > > > It's perfectly fair. You agreed to license your contributions under > > CC-BY-SA. CC-BY-SA doesn't require that you give anything back to > anyone. > > It only requires that you give credit to the authors and license any > > derivative works that you distribute under CC-BY-SA. > > > > That isn't the debate, the debate is if CC-BY-SA can enforce it or > not, some people claim it can't in some countries even Australia to > some extent or other, so ODBL is being presented as an option to close > loopholes that CC-BY-SA has. > If CC-BY-SA can enforce what? Attribution? If geodata isn't copyrightable, then it doesn't matter if the derivative works are released under CC-BY-SA. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
2009/12/13 Anthony : > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:56 PM, John Smith > wrote: >> >> That's the issue I have, I have no problem giving back to the >> community, but I don't want commercial companies just sucking up all >> the data and not giving hardly anything back in return if they extend >> the map, it's not fair to me or anyone else who chooses to donate our >> time for "the greater good". > > It's perfectly fair. You agreed to license your contributions under > CC-BY-SA. CC-BY-SA doesn't require that you give anything back to anyone. > It only requires that you give credit to the authors and license any > derivative works that you distribute under CC-BY-SA. > That isn't the debate, the debate is if CC-BY-SA can enforce it or not, some people claim it can't in some countries even Australia to some extent or other, so ODBL is being presented as an option to close loopholes that CC-BY-SA has. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:56 PM, John Smith wrote: > That's the issue I have, I have no problem giving back to the > community, but I don't want commercial companies just sucking up all > the data and not giving hardly anything back in return if they extend > the map, it's not fair to me or anyone else who chooses to donate our > time for "the greater good". > It's perfectly fair. You agreed to license your contributions under CC-BY-SA. CC-BY-SA doesn't require that you give anything back to anyone. It only requires that you give credit to the authors and license any derivative works that you distribute under CC-BY-SA. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
2009/12/13 Anthony : > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM, John Smith > wrote: >> >> The problem I have with that is my labour is used to commercially >> benefit others and in turn nothing they do would have to be returned >> to the community. > > So you want to be given something in return for your labor? Nothing wrong > with that, but you're more likely to be successful if you choose a non-free > project to contribute to. If your labor is valuable to commercial > interests, don't give it away for free. Get those commercial interests to > pay you, and then, if you'd like, you can donate your pay to "the > community". That's the issue I have, I have no problem giving back to the community, but I don't want commercial companies just sucking up all the data and not giving hardly anything back in return if they extend the map, it's not fair to me or anyone else who chooses to donate our time for "the greater good". After all if the data isn't extended there is nothing to give back, which is a shame but you can't have everything I guess. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] View CSV file data from a GPS on a map
On Sun, December 13, 2009 11:24, wonderling wrote: > Where are there instructions for viewing data points? > The format is: ., ., ., comments > > > The need is to evaluate the validity of the points before publishing. If you just want to view your data on a map try GPS Visualizer. It will recognise .CSV files, but you may have to specify the format. http://gpsvisualizer.com/map_input You could also try using gpsbabel (free software) to convert your CSV file to GPX. The GPX file can be loaded into JOSM, or many other mapping programs. Have fun! Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:17 PM, John Smith wrote: > The problem I have with that is my labour is used to commercially > benefit others and in turn nothing they do would have to be returned > to the community. So you want to be given something in return for your labor? Nothing wrong with that, but you're more likely to be successful if you choose a non-free project to contribute to. If your labor is valuable to commercial interests, don't give it away for free. Get those commercial interests to pay you, and then, if you'd like, you can donate your pay to "the community". ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] View CSV file data from a GPS on a map
2009/12/13 wonderling : > Where are there instructions for viewing data points? > The format is: ., ., ., comments > > The need is to evaluate the validity of the points before publishing. Convert it to an osm file and load it in JOSM as a new layer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] View CSV file data from a GPS on a map
Where are there instructions for viewing data points? The format is: ., ., ., comments The need is to evaluate the validity of the points before publishing. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
2009/12/12 Brendan Morley : > If "the intent of OSM is to represent the centerline of a road as accurately > as possible" (and presumably other land features too) then this is another > reason to consider dropping the SA requirement - or dual licencing or dual > databases or being able to assign a licence per-object. > > Australian Government is now quite happy to share using CCBY, but CCBYSA > (and OdbL replicas) make it difficult for government to republish (e.g. it > shouldn't be seen to discriminate against constituents that don't wish to > accept the SA stipulation on contributed edits). The problem I have with that is my labour is used to commercially benefit others and in turn nothing they do would have to be returned to the community. If people or companies are benefiting, why shouldn't there be some expectations to return the benefits to everyone, not just hoard it away for the benefit of commercial operators if they themselves are benefiting from it? > And who else but government is in the best position (and has the most self > interest) to determine exactly where the road was built? There is a lot of roads on paper that were never built so I don't see that as accurate either. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] indic fonts in mapnik, JOSM and Potlatch
On Saturday 12 Dec 2009 1:34:27 pm Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > compile support for this in JOSM and Potlatch, it would be of extreme > > help to us - currently all we see is little boxes when entering > > text. > > Potlatch (via Flash Player) just uses your system fonts. If they're > correctly installed on your system, and Flash Player knows they're there, > Potlatch will use them. > they are correctly installed in my system - I can see them in firefox fonts. Also I chose them as default font - but how to tell Flash Player that they are there? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] indic fonts in mapnik, JOSM and Potlatch
On Sunday 13 Dec 2009 5:06:51 am Peter Körner wrote: > > hi, > > > > I have been searching for a way to render indic fonts in OSM/mapnik for > > some months and have posted here and elsewhere without result. Today I > > discovered something called GNU unifont which has glyphs for all known > > languages. Apparently this is used in the official OSM/Mapnik renderer. > > Anyway I compiled mapnik with support for this font, and am able to > > render all languages. > > Like this? http://cassini.toolserver.org/tile-browse/browse-hi.html > > Maybe you already knew it.. > no - never heard of it before, thanks for the link -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] indic fonts in mapnik, JOSM and Potlatch
Kenneth Gonsalves schrieb: > hi, > > I have been searching for a way to render indic fonts in OSM/mapnik for some > months and have posted here and elsewhere without result. Today I discovered > something called GNU unifont which has glyphs for all known languages. > Apparently this is used in the official OSM/Mapnik renderer. Anyway I > compiled > mapnik with support for this font, and am able to render all languages. Like this? http://cassini.toolserver.org/tile-browse/browse-hi.html Maybe you already knew it.. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
On Sunday 13 Dec 2009 2:55:10 am Liz wrote: > On Sun, 13 Dec 2009, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > > > Sure, but what does it mean for geospatial data to "be free"? > > > > In short that I can improve it and send to friends. In detail I will > > take the definition from http://opendefinition.org/1.0 > > Could be just the same as the law and medical knowledge > When you go to the lawyers, you pay for the lawyer's expertise. The lawyer > looks up the law in law books, statutes etc, and uses that information for > you, without paying some licence fee or tax for that knowledge. (S)he looks > up past cases to see what points made a case go one way or the other. > That knowledge is free to use, perhaps not free as in beer, as the books > are bought from a printer / publisher. no one goes to a lawyer for truth or justice - they go to lawyers to win their cases. > > Actually it is ironic that lawyers use free knowledge to lock up other > peoples' knowledge. what does this mean? -- regards Kenneth Gonsalves Senior Project Officer NRC-FOSS http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
On Sun, 13 Dec 2009, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > > Sure, but what does it mean for geospatial data to "be free"? > > In short that I can improve it and send to friends. In detail I will > take the definition from http://opendefinition.org/1.0 Could be just the same as the law and medical knowledge When you go to the lawyers, you pay for the lawyer's expertise. The lawyer looks up the law in law books, statutes etc, and uses that information for you, without paying some licence fee or tax for that knowledge. (S)he looks up past cases to see what points made a case go one way or the other. That knowledge is free to use, perhaps not free as in beer, as the books are bought from a printer / publisher. Actually it is ironic that lawyers use free knowledge to lock up other peoples' knowledge. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
2009/12/12 Anthony : > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, andrzej zaborowski > wrote: >> >> It is a big deal to me, it's some kind of dream of a better world >> where practically all geospatial data (also software if you're a FOSS >> programmer) has to be free if you want to tap into the huge knowledge >> base all humanity has built till now. > > Sure, but what does it mean for geospatial data to "be free"? In short that I can improve it and send to friends. In detail I will take the definition from http://opendefinition.org/1.0 Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > It is a big deal to me, it's some kind of dream of a better world > where practically all geospatial data (also software if you're a FOSS > programmer) has to be free if you want to tap into the huge knowledge > base all humanity has built till now. Sure, but what does it mean for geospatial data to "be free"? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Am 12.12.2009 19:06, schrieb Steve Bennett: > Potlatch added: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport > > (P:pre means it's a preset, P:au means it's an autocomplete.) Ah, you also like to add presets. You'll find the JOSM presets at: http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/trunk/presets/presets.xml Regards, ULFL ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Potlatch added: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport (P:pre means it's a preset, P:au means it's an autocomplete.) Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 11:18 PM, andrzej zaborowski wrote: > 2009/12/11 Shalabh : > > Ok, heres a question I have been meaning to ask for long. What is the big > > deal if the big, bad G takes a chunk of data from OSM and uses it? Do I > > care? No. If anything, I would be happy that we created something worthy > to > > be used by a corporation. As long as they dont restrict me from using > data > > on OSM, which they in no way cant, I dont have a problem. If they dont > 'give > > back' to the community, big deal!! > > It is a big deal to me, it's some kind of dream of a better world > where practically all geospatial data (also software if you're a FOSS > programmer) has to be free if you want to tap into the huge knowledge > base all humanity has built till now. You can already see big closed > software companies stay behind because they can't use my favourite > GPL-licensed library, they have to reimplement everything from scratch > while everyone else uses the free version and adds their own creations > to this ever-growing base. It's a virus. > > Google has a lot of data and are good at getting more, be it official > or crowdsourced. It would be a huge loss for the collective knowledge > of everyone if this data escapes the virus. I can't afford that loss, > maybe you can. > > Cheers > Point taken but is not leaving our data open for everyone's use the answer? So we are saying 'We are an open project only for those who agree to all OUR terms and conditions, which includes necessarily sharing what they have.' And I (only speaking for myself) see that as another way of restricting someone's freedom. Regards, Shalabh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why the BSD vs GPL debate is irrelevant to OSM
2009/12/11 Shalabh : > Ok, heres a question I have been meaning to ask for long. What is the big > deal if the big, bad G takes a chunk of data from OSM and uses it? Do I > care? No. If anything, I would be happy that we created something worthy to > be used by a corporation. As long as they dont restrict me from using data > on OSM, which they in no way cant, I dont have a problem. If they dont 'give > back' to the community, big deal!! It is a big deal to me, it's some kind of dream of a better world where practically all geospatial data (also software if you're a FOSS programmer) has to be free if you want to tap into the huge knowledge base all humanity has built till now. You can already see big closed software companies stay behind because they can't use my favourite GPL-licensed library, they have to reimplement everything from scratch while everyone else uses the free version and adds their own creations to this ever-growing base. It's a virus. Google has a lot of data and are good at getting more, be it official or crowdsourced. It would be a huge loss for the collective knowledge of everyone if this data escapes the virus. I can't afford that loss, maybe you can. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Replacing Google with OSM
On 12 Dec 2009, at 09:08, Shaun McDonald wrote: > > On 11 Dec 2009, at 11:42, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: > >> El Viernes, 11 de Diciembre de 2009, Steve Chilton escribió: >>> A little while ago I saw a note somewhere about some neat code to >>> replace Google maps with OSM in a web application. >> >> I think you mean either the osmify bookmarklet: >> >> http://blog.johnmckerrell.com/2007/12/31/new-version-of-osmify-bookmarklet/ >> >> Or the GMaps API example in the wiki: >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Maps_Example >> > > http://developers.cloudmade.com/projects/web-maps-lite/examples/google-wrapper > is another option. Ooh, interesting, hadn't seen that one. Steve, the OSMify thing should work too, they could download the JS and edit out the bits for the other map providers if they wanted. I've just checked and it does seem to be using the latest tiles using the same URLs as are in use on openstreetmap.org. You can find the JS here: http://johnmckerrell.com/files/osmify.js John ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Measuring success of OSM
> -Original Message- > From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk- > boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Brendan Morley > Sent: 12 December 2009 14:03 > To: Talk OSM > Subject: [OSM-talk] Measuring success of OSM > > In the interests of healthy debate, > > I disagree with some of the sentiments around imports. In particular > that imports reduce the amount of OSM contributors, and that that is a > Bad Thing. > > IMHO success should be measured by the accuracy of the data (to > reality) and to the pervasiveness of its use by people and corporates. > What if suddenly > Ordnance Survey merged all their excrutiating detail of data under OSM > terms? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I say good, because there > will always be > need for tracking of changes. What makes you think that the OS will track changes better than people on the ground in the area? As I understand it OS primarily is notified of changes by local authorities etc. combined with the odd aerial survey. I've surveyed many a feature near me before they're even officially open, whereas the same features still haven't appeared in the OS data that I can access. There are lots of things that OS don't cover too. Cycle parking, the current occupants of shops, etc. We still need people on the ground to collect and maintain that data. If there's largescale importing of data not collected by somebody in OSM then it's unlikely that somebody is going to feel the same sense of ownership of it. Also in those areas where the data has essentially exclusively come from an import instead of our own survey it's less likely that we'll attract new contributors in the first place. Surveying highways is much better for getting somebody hooked on OSM that surveying POIs. Adding highways has an immediately obvious impact. To have the same level of impact with POIs will need at least an order more work. > > Perhaps OSM would turn into a "heads up" service for government - you > know, a local would identify a tree planted "somewhere around this GPS > reading" and > then an OS employee would know to come around and get a more accurate > fix. I'm only speculating here, I don't know how OS actually detects > changes to its > dataset. > > If OSM ever reached that level of detail, then it'd be pointless for > Google to "steal" our data, they'd always be playing catchup. I've already pointed out that OSM is richer than OS in some domains. Oh, and it'd be really easy for Google to have a near-real-time mirror of OSM's data with updates rendered shortly behind. Lots of people already replicate from OSM, and we've shown that it only takes extremely modest hardware in Google's terms to keep up with the rerendering necessary. Gregory ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] A table of cross-renderer tag support
Ok, I'm on a roll now, I added Kosmos to the table. There are now three renderers (Mapnik, Osmarender and Kosmos) and one editor (Josm) represented. Starting to have some big problems storing the complete (500kb) table though. The wiki is timing out. I've now converted it to wikitable syntax (~150kb) but that has its own problems. Anyway, it is now demangled, take a look: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Stevage/tagsupport Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
I just assumed street maps was its original purpose that it outgrew as it became more popular. However, there's great value in having "everything with a position on the Earth" in the one true geofabric. Assuming the OSMF is happy to have the database be populated with said objects. I'm sure you can still run up a stylesheet that just shows streets if you want. (-: On Fri, 11 Dec 2009 13:30:15 +, Dave F. wrote: >paul youlten wrote: >> But it is still a street map that we are making - administrative >> boundaries, top secret government installations, Al Qaeda training >> camps, water catchment areas and so on are fascinating (and probably >> great fun to map) but they are not necessarily part of a street map. >> >> PY >> >> >Paul >I think you have a slightly narrow perspective of OSM. >Yes, it has street in the title & yes, it says "/such as street maps" >/in the tag line, but it doesn't say 'only' street maps. >Do you think parks, pubs, recycling centres etc shouldn't be mapped? >If it's a physical entity then it can be mapped. >Cheers >Dave F. >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Measuring success of OSM
In the interests of healthy debate, I disagree with some of the sentiments around imports. In particular that imports reduce the amount of OSM contributors, and that that is a Bad Thing. IMHO success should be measured by the accuracy of the data (to reality) and to the pervasiveness of its use by people and corporates. What if suddenly Ordnance Survey merged all their excrutiating detail of data under OSM terms? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I say good, because there will always be need for tracking of changes. Perhaps OSM would turn into a "heads up" service for government - you know, a local would identify a tree planted "somewhere around this GPS reading" and then an OS employee would know to come around and get a more accurate fix. I'm only speculating here, I don't know how OS actually detects changes to its dataset. If OSM ever reached that level of detail, then it'd be pointless for Google to "steal" our data, they'd always be playing catchup. Brendan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
If "the intent of OSM is to represent the centerline of a road as accurately as possible" (and presumably other land features too) then this is another reason to consider dropping the SA requirement - or dual licencing or dual databases or being able to assign a licence per-object. Australian Government is now quite happy to share using CCBY, but CCBYSA (and OdbL replicas) make it difficult for government to republish (e.g. it shouldn't be seen to discriminate against constituents that don't wish to accept the SA stipulation on contributed edits). And who else but government is in the best position (and has the most self interest) to determine exactly where the road was built? Brendan --Original Message Text--- From: Anthony Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 10:26:08 -0500 The intent of OSM is to represent the centerline of a road as accurately as possible. There aren't an infinite number of possibilities which we creatively choose from. (First of all, the number of possibilities that can be represented is finite, as the number of decimal places is finite. But more to the point, the purpose is to record exactly one result, and any deviation from that is simply an error.) Mistakes and inaccuracy do not represent creative input. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How is there not any creative-type (US) copyright in OSM data?
"Arc" would make a certain amount of sense since the design of the built environment (e.g. road construction) is basically broken down into segments of lines, arcs and spirals (i.e. the transition from straight to curved sections). But then all associated tools would have to start acting like CAD applications, not just relying on the concepts used in say the OpenGIS Simple Features Specification. In the longer term, road engineers could (should?) just be able to load their as-built engineering drawings straight into OSM. Awesome... Brendan --Original Message Text--- From: Anthony Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 11:59:31 -0500 We could, however, introduce a "arc" tag. And if I was better at making proposals (and/or the OSM processes were better at accepting proposals), it would probably already be introduced. To represent an arc, you only need three points (start, end, and any third point on the arc uniquely defines a triangle which is circumscribed by exactly one circle). This could even be made backward compatible. Just split the way at the beginning and end of the arc and put "arc=yes". Renderers that don't know about arcs would use three points (or four, or five, or whatever). Renderers that do know about them would use as many as is necessary for the resolution of the image. (In the case of an arc=yes tag with more than three points ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Opinion poll about the new licence Odbl 1.0
On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 6:52 PM, Brendan Morley wrote: > Anthony, > > I realise no analogy is perfect. In this case a problem is that if somebody > "breaks into" the OSM data, he is not depriving the previous owners of it. > And it is an "Open" street map after all - we're *inviting* people into the > house! > > By the way I'm not sure why "Copyright law is the big huge window sitting > next to the locked door". If possible could you explain further or "just > google it for me" or tell me where to find more info? > > > Thanks, > Brendan > > +1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [talk-au] Fwd: Re: Why PD is not better for business
The momentum within Australian Governments is now to foster an environment of 99% free with 99% coverage. Best of both worlds, but requires a shift to CCBY thinking. On Sat, 12 Dec 2009 01:56:12 +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: >On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 1:47 AM, Peter Childs wrote: >> From having seen it in quite a few Open Source projects, it would be a >> death sentence. >I'll have to take your word for it. From my point of view, I think I'd >rather see a 70% free project with 100% coverage, than a 100% free >project with 70% coverage. I imagine there is a wide range of views on >this topic. >Steve >___ >talk mailing list >talk@openstreetmap.org >http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Opinion poll about the new licence Odbl 1.0
Anthony, I realise no analogy is perfect. In this case a problem is that if somebody "breaks into" the OSM data, he is not depriving the previous owners of it. And it is an "Open" street map after all - we're *inviting* people into the house! By the way I'm not sure why "Copyright law is the big huge window sitting next to the locked door". If possible could you explain further or "just google it for me" or tell me where to find more info? Thanks, Brendan --Original Message Text--- From: Anthony Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:55:26 -0500 On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 5:05 AM, Tobias Knerr wrote: Brendan Morley wrote: > All for addressing, as far as I can tell, a theoretical problem, with no > real-world "exploits". I understand that actual exploits would make the problem more obvious, but I find the underlying logic questionable nevertheless. No one has broken into my house for 5 years now. Does this mean my door locks are secure? No, it might easily just mean that * most people are honest enough not break into my house * the stuff I have in here is not valuable enough * I was simply lucky Of course, it doesn't necessarily mean that the locks are insecure either, it's just that you need experts checking the locks to decide this. Unless you're living inside a bank vault, I highly doubt your locks are secure or that you'd be willing to pay to secure them. Especially not when they're sitting next to a big window that can probably be easily broken with a nice brick. Good analogy, actually. ODbL is the fancy million dollar lock (which is brand new and has been tested much less than your previous $50 one). Copyright law is the big huge window sitting next to the locked door. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Replacing Google with OSM
On 11 Dec 2009, at 11:42, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: > El Viernes, 11 de Diciembre de 2009, Steve Chilton escribió: >> A little while ago I saw a note somewhere about some neat code to >> replace Google maps with OSM in a web application. > > I think you mean either the osmify bookmarklet: > > http://blog.johnmckerrell.com/2007/12/31/new-version-of-osmify-bookmarklet/ > > Or the GMaps API example in the wiki: > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Maps_Example > http://developers.cloudmade.com/projects/web-maps-lite/examples/google-wrapper is another option. Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] indic fonts in mapnik, JOSM and Potlatch
Kenneth Gonsalves wrote: > I have been searching for a way to render indic fonts in OSM/mapnik > for some months and have posted here and elsewhere without result. > Today I discovered something called GNU unifont which has glyphs for > all known languages. Apparently this is used in the official > OSM/Mapnik renderer. Anyway I compiled mapnik with support for this > font, and am able to render all languages. If some kind soul could > compile support for this in JOSM and Potlatch, it would be of extreme > help to us - currently all we see is little boxes when entering > text. Potlatch (via Flash Player) just uses your system fonts. If they're correctly installed on your system, and Flash Player knows they're there, Potlatch will use them. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/indic-fonts-in-mapnik%2C-JOSM-and-Potlatch-tp26754993p26755698.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
