Re: [OSM-talk] mass mailing osm mappers
Serge Wroclawski writes: > It's not hard to write, actually. It's hard to get right, though. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] mass mailing osm mappers
Frederik Ramm writes: > Both of these are unwanted; (a) is not possible without actually moving > your own location around in small increments - a certain Russ N. > reputedly has a script that does that and got bollocked for it. Nope, didn't. Nobody ever complained. > I think it would be nice to have a feature where users can actually > enable a check box in their profile "I wish to be contacted by other > mappers in my area about mapping events or other things of relevance", > and then an interface where you can simply draw a bounding box and say > "send this message to all mappers in this box who have the checkbox ticked". No, that doesn't work. Instead, the mapper needs to select a bounding box (or two or more) for the areas they're interested in. Then, when you post a message about a particular point, it goes to everyone with a matching bounding box. Otherwise ... Spammers just pick a bounding box the size of the world. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
On May 17, 2010, at 5:01 AM, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: > El 17/05/2010 1:53, SteveC escribió: >> I'll send you a "I love you bean" and give you a big kiss on stage at SOTM. >> >> How about it? > > That'd be quite gay, Steve. You're just jealous :-) Yours &c. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, 18 May 2010, Roy Wallace wrote: > On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:49 AM, SteveC wrote: > > Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something, > > but that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally > > because there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at. > > I think the point is to try to understand what it is that (some) > people like about the current logo. > > I get the impression it's about story-telling. I.e. some people feel > the current logo does this well, and they don't want to lose that. If > we want to please everyone, then designers need to really *hear* that > feedback, and try again. > The current logo expresses looking closely at the world and finding it composed of 0 and 1 or expressed as binary ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
2010/5/18 SteveC : > You couldn't sort of extrapolate forward from a GIS system to OSM. You > couldn't extrapolate from crappy Nokia phones forward to the > iPhone > (without hindsight, of course). I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. You can't compare a logo (an abstract graphic whose main task is high recognition value, make us identificable and visually memorable and create sympathy) to a complex tecnical system with completely different requirements. > Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something, but > that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally because > there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at. that's fine with me, I wasn't suggesting minor changes like turning it red or change the font, I think one could restyle it and change it fundamentally in some way whilst still maintaining some continuity with the current one (not necessarily with the style and colours, but more regarding the idea behind it). I agree if there is an appealing idea to represent us in a form that is incompatible with the current logo but nevertheless better, we should consider taking it - only I haven't seen this so far. Why not extend the OSMF-logo-competition and get some different proposals for an OSM-logo as well to vote on? Btw.: there are lots of good designs here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Logo and we originally wanted to vote till Dec. 2009. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 8:49 AM, SteveC wrote: > > Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something, but > that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally because > there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at. I think the point is to try to understand what it is that (some) people like about the current logo. I get the impression it's about story-telling. I.e. some people feel the current logo does this well, and they don't want to lose that. If we want to please everyone, then designers need to really *hear* that feedback, and try again. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] place=isolated_dwelling approved - adding to mapfeatures
could someone with the ability please add place=isolated_dwelling to the main map features? Voting has ended on May 13 and the feature was approved. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/isolated_dwelling Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On May 16, 2010, at 9:47 PM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2010/5/16 SteveC : >> As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference >> material or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the >> current logo: >> >> * has too many colours >> * doesn't scale >> * is too busy >> * isn't brandable to a colour scheme >> >> This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts. > > > while this is all true, it doesn't imply that to design a new logo we > must completely throw the current design away. Yes and no. On the one hand as I said, there hasn't been a clamoring to actually get it changed whereas Robert has talent, time and clearly the energy. That's really most of what I need to say 'okay fine go do it'. On the other, I'm not a big fan of evolution. I prefer revolution or innovation. You couldn't sort of extrapolate forward from a GIS system to OSM. You couldn't extrapolate from crappy Nokia phones forward to the iPhone (without hindsight, of course). So I prefer a rethink and something bold and new. Yes you could take the existing logo and just make it red or something, but that's just not nearly as appealing as changing it fundamentally because there's a sea of other ideas out there that are worth looking at. Yours &c. Steve > I think that the old > logo is quite good at pointing out what OSM is about (for a part, > sparing out the collaborative aspect, but still the "data and not map > or poi"-aspect is important). I would expect from a new logo to be > 1 individual and unique > 2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo > 3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM > 4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo (ideally the > new logo would be some progress of the old one) > > the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with > OSM. > > cheers, > Martin > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
If we get a new logo, it should at least be better than those: (not difficult ;-) ) http://telematicsnews.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/navteq-logo-bg.jpg (much harder): http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_d1yewYtBxw0/R0uK310O0tI/BXY/igckDSnEO-Y/s320/Tele+Atlas+Logo.jpg or something completely different ;-) http://www.realgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/firefox-logo.jpg cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On Tue, 18 May 2010, pavithran wrote: > It definitely makes mapping easy in developing areas where most of the > shops are situated side by side in a small area which is in contrast > to UK/european shops which occupy large areas . > You are also getting the reduced scale of the zoom levels because of your position closer to the Equator. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, 18 May 2010, Roy Wallace wrote: > factory-and-wave for Factory Records. > that was smoke out of the chimney, pollution and that stuff ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] lazyweb: what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend
On 18 May 2010 07:48, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: > BUZZ: Guttorm Flatabø - New HTC mobiles are getting very good reviews. I > have a Sumsung, but I'm stuck with Android 1.5 If you can get root on Android handsets you can load custom roms, like the one from http://cyanogenmod.com which you can load even the original android handsets with Android OS 2.1 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:46 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > Robert Martinez wrote: > > Now, could everybody still in doubt please do a simple google > > image search for "good logo" and check for logos that tell a story! > > I bet you'll hardly find any. > > Robert, I think you have produced a good logo. Not an outstanding one, like > (to quote two of my favourites) British Waterways' evocative > bridge-and-bulrushes > (http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/images/logo_bw.gif), or Factory > Records' wonderfully stylised 1980s effort > (http://seandodson.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/factory_records.jpg). But a > perfectly decent logo. Interesting... I think those logos are crappy. But hey, let's take your point and run with it. So we have bridge-and-bulrushes for British Waterways', and a factory-and-wave for Factory Records. Do we really want map-and-magnifying-glass-and-ones-and-zeros for OSM? Or can we break that down/simplify that a bit, so designers have some more room to move? Maybe that would help us to find some common ground between those emphasising the importance of story vs those emphasising graphical/technical/appearance. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] lazyweb: what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend
more responses: thanks for your input BUZZ: Guttorm Flatabø - New HTC mobiles are getting very good reviews. I have a Sumsung, but I'm stuck with Android 1.5 IRC Phurl: there are only 2 real contenders... Maemo-based or Android-based and they're both pretty excellent. the former is more open, the latter has a better app ecosystem facebook Gent Thaçi :Google Nexus One! :) facebook Jeff Gromest : Here in the states we have a few but the Motorola Milestone (Android based) seems to be the big one. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On 17 May 2010 22:00, John F. Eldredge wrote: > One thing that has frustrated me with the current tiling system is that > most POIs are only visible if you zoom in all the way, and can only see an > area 50 meters or so across. This rather limits their usefulness. It would > also help if you could click on a POI, or hover your mouse above it, and see > the values of more tags. A restaurant POI, for example, could tell you the > hours it is open and what sort of food it serves, assuming these tags had > been set. I just happened yo be looking at http://opendatamap.ca/ 5 minutes ago. That set up is only Canada, but the code is available (sadly with no instructions). -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > I'm a magazine editor. Part of my job is assessing the work our designers > come up with, [..] Not everyone is a stereotypical hacker. I am a garment decorator, sign maker and also do something similar to book cover design. > But yours is the wrong simple logo. It's a good logo, but it's not a good > logo for OSM. I'm sure you could design a great logo for OSM - it's just > this one isn't it. I completely agree with this statement. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On 18 May 2010 07:00, John F. Eldredge wrote: > One thing that has frustrated me with the current tiling system is that most > POIs are only visible if you zoom in all the way, and can only see an area 50 > meters or so across. This rather limits their usefulness. It would also > help if you could click on a POI, or hover your mouse above it, and see the > values of more tags. A restaurant POI, for example, could tell you the hours > it is open and what sort of food it serves, assuming these tags had been set. This sounds similar to what google does now, although I'm sure openlayers supports mouse click trapping and then some sort of AJAX type background request to pull and display the data in a popup. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
One thing that has frustrated me with the current tiling system is that most POIs are only visible if you zoom in all the way, and can only see an area 50 meters or so across. This rather limits their usefulness. It would also help if you could click on a POI, or hover your mouse above it, and see the values of more tags. A restaurant POI, for example, could tell you the hours it is open and what sort of food it serves, assuming these tags had been set. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria -Original Message- From: Eric Marsden Date: Mon, 17 May 2010 22:15:10 To: Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed? > "js" == John Smith writes: js> I wonder how consistent you could get the look and feel between the 2 js> systems, otherwise it might cause more confusion than anything. This would require work, yes. But even the Mapnik rendering has discontinuities between zoom levels: for instance between z8 (no landuse rendering) and z9 (landuses such as forest are rendered) there is a significant step (very visible in France for instance, where we have good landuse data imported from CLC). -- Eric Marsden ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
2010/5/17 Robert Martinez : > right. that would be the a term. > You don't have to be a designer to use the "desaturate" button. > The challange is to make it work afterwards. > The current logo does not work monochromatic, mine does. have you ever seen a monochromatic version of the current logo? IMHO that could be a task to show skills: redesign the current logo for monochromatic display (and I'm not talking about rasterizing oder desaturating, just in case ...). >> this is not be read as long story, it is about symbology. > If stories and symbols have really nothing in common. OK, you misunderstood me: they have something in common, but a logo mustn't be a comic strip. > So do the examples you provide: > the DB logo works by symbolizing an abstract shape (maybe with associations > of rising stock markets) to itself. it is a rising graph (be it stockmarket, economy or the bank's value itself), something that goes up (positive) plus it is a percent-symbol (the money the bank will take from you in my interpretation, they'll probably tell you the story somehow differently saying it symbolizes the percents your money will grow or sth like that). > Windows uses an illustration of the semantic meaning of its name. yes, and ubuntu uses three people in a circle (abstract but clearly about community, social). What's so difficult to understand about this? Yourself are using a flag in a joystick / on a map. Not that it looks completely bad, but it IMHO doesn't represent OSM or the project, idea and comunity behind it. - And as many have pointed out here: it does look like a logo for a POI-collecting project or a golf course. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
> "js" == John Smith writes: js> I wonder how consistent you could get the look and feel between the 2 js> systems, otherwise it might cause more confusion than anything. This would require work, yes. But even the Mapnik rendering has discontinuities between zoom levels: for instance between z8 (no landuse rendering) and z9 (landuses such as forest are rendered) there is a significant step (very visible in France for instance, where we have good landuse data imported from CLC). -- Eric Marsden ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Villain?
Matt, Many thanks. Hopefully the tool can be back improved with all the suggestions that have been posted to this list. N. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On 18 May 2010 05:44, Eric Marsden wrote: > I wonder if it would be sensible to switch to a vector-based rendering > system for high zoom levels, as implemented at http://cartagen.org > (using HTML5 canvas). This would allow "arbitrarily" high zoom levels. > Tile-based rendering performs much better at low zoom levels, but I > suspect that vector-based rendering would work better above z17. I wonder how consistent you could get the look and feel between the 2 systems, otherwise it might cause more confusion than anything. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Villain?
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 11:44 AM, Serge Wroclawski wrote: > My suggestions: > > 1) Please reword the list to not have judgemental label on it. "just the > facts" i've removed the list. it was intended as a bit of fun, certainly not to offend anyone and i honestly didn't expect anyone who wasn't doing bulk imports to end up on the villains list. by way of explanation, "villain" is a kind of old-fashioned word in modern british usage - i definitely didn't mean criminal. apologies to anyone who was offended. > 2) Explain the algorithm. Are you looking for duplicated nodes > litterally by "nodes which are on top of one another" or something > more loose? it's as simple as two nodes having exactly the same lat/lon, as explained on these pages: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Duplicate_nodes_map http://matt.dev.openstreetmap.org/dupe_nodes/about.html#wtf > 3) For those of us who have duplicated nodes still around, make it > easy to download the list and examine it. You're already compiling the > data- just make it available as an OSM file for us to look at in our > favorite OSM editor, please. the whole thing is offline right now anyway, but when i get it back online i'll add your suggestion to the TODO list. it's unlikely to be a downloadable file (kinda the whole point was that it should be minutely-up-to-date), but something like a map call should be possible. or to hook it into a larger OSM bug-tracking system like OSB if it's able to handle the millions of points... cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
> "md" == Maarten Deen writes: md> Adding a zoomlevel adds 4 tiles for each tile in the previous zoomlevel. md> You'll go from 91 billion tiles to 366 billion. md> This meaning you need 4 times the load to generate, 4 times the storage to md> hold them, 4 times the traffic to display them. I wonder if it would be sensible to switch to a vector-based rendering system for high zoom levels, as implemented at http://cartagen.org (using HTML5 canvas). This would allow "arbitrarily" high zoom levels. Tile-based rendering performs much better at low zoom levels, but I suspect that vector-based rendering would work better above z17. -- Eric Marsden ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Robert Martinez wrote: > Now, could everybody still in doubt please do a simple google > image search for "good logo" and check for logos that tell a story! > I bet you'll hardly find any. Robert, I think you have produced a good logo. Not an outstanding one, like (to quote two of my favourites) British Waterways' evocative bridge-and-bulrushes (http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/images/logo_bw.gif), or Factory Records' wonderfully stylised 1980s effort (http://seandodson.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/factory_records.jpg). But a perfectly decent logo. But please, please stop patronising people by assuming they know nothing about design. OpenStreetMap is a more catholic community than you might think: it's not just all 18-year old Linux geeks (not that there's anything wrong with 18-year old Linux geeks). There _are_ people here who are qualified to have an opinion on your logo. I'm a magazine editor. Part of my job is assessing the work our designers come up with, and saying "yes, this is good", or "no, this doesn't work", or "hm, ok, but this aspect needs reworking" - like when we redesigned our entire magazine about six months ago. There are some OSM contributors who work at design studios; I know of at least one occasional contributor who has retired after many years in print design. Not everyone is a stereotypical hacker. So when you say: > So what I offer also is a reduction in quantity, while the old logo > has a map with folds, a magnifying glass with reflections, a > digital representation, forrest, streets and a lake on the map. > So I partly understand you feel kind of robbed, because my logo > has only a pin on a map. remember that I, and others, don't object to a simple logo. A simple logo works brilliantly in the two examples I cited above. But yours is the wrong simple logo. It's a good logo, but it's not a good logo for OSM. I'm sure you could design a great logo for OSM - it's just this one isn't it. Having a pin on a map is not what OSM is about. I was going to be facetious and say "you might as well have a frog on a map", but actually a frog might be better. There are hundreds of sites that are about placing pins on (Google) maps. We're not one of them. Simple logos can tell a story. The British Waterways logo conjures associations of hump-backed bridges (which every British motorist, and therefore 90% of the target audience, has driven across) - a simple, authentic industrial heritage - and of nature. Perfect for evoking the canals. The Factory Records logo conjures associations of 20th century industrial design and the 1968 riots - a brilliant evocation of the Factory attitude and its ventures such as the Hacienda. These are the right stories to tell. The pin logo conjures associations of Platial (RIP) and Frappr (RIP) and Wikimapia (still-born), and those aren't the right associations for OSM. It's nothing personal nor an aspersion on your design skills. Our designer at work is great but I still sometimes send pages back to him saying "this doesn't work". Actually one such design did have pushpins on but that's coincidence. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/new-logo-tp5046672p5066463.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] lazyweb: what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend
On 17 May 2010 14:37, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: > Hi all, > > here is a question from one of my friends, > > what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend? > I have a Nokia N900 and love it. It's more of a linux-computer-in-your-pocket, but it does most of the things a smart phone does also. And works great for mapping. /Markus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 05/17/2010 05:47 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2010/5/16 SteveC: > >> As for why this is better, anyone who has printed t-shirts, conference >> material or worked in branding will tell you, as I already have that the >> current logo: >> >> * has too many colours >> * doesn't scale >> * is too busy >> * isn't brandable to a colour scheme >> >> This isn't opinion, it's just basic design facts. >> > > while this is all true, it doesn't imply that to design a new logo we > must completely throw the current design away. I think that the old > logo is quite good at pointing out what OSM is about (for a part, > sparing out the collaborative aspect, but still the "data and not map > or poi"-aspect is important). I would expect from a new logo to be > 1 individual and unique > 2 meet all the technical and graphical requirements for a logo > 3 tell a story / symbolize the idea of OSM > 4 possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo (ideally the > new logo would be some progress of the old one) > > the proposed design is working only for point 2 but has nothing to do with > OSM. > > I'll use that post as a hook for going into detail concerning my opinion as a designer (excuse the amount of text, but I'm kind of challenged to respond to critical voices): All the things Steve mentioned are both important and true. And I designed my logo to meet those, and a few other standards: It is scalabe, can be colorized, isn't busy (a subset of scalable) and does not use many colors. 1. You correctly add the uniqueness as an important attribute. If you find something that looks too similar please speak up - this could be an absolute no-go no matter what the current fuzz about the logo is. This is very important. 2. Then you mention that "technical and graphical requirements" should be met, and acknowledge that it does. Thanks! This really is important, too. 3. Then you go on with "story / symbolization of an idea" and I strongly disagree. There *may* be some special cases where I might not disagree, but the OSM project certainly isn't in that category. A story has to be told, it has the dimension of time and involves much vocabulary. While this must not be inherently bad, it clearly is a recipe for failure in all the other important domains like scalability, colorization and other stuff. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "symbolization of an idea", and I'm even more uncertain what that means in a visual term. This alone drives me to the conclusion that every attempt to do this will fail, not only because there are probably thousands of ideas and symbols, but also thousands of ways to interpret them. I understand and respect the wish for what you want to accomplish here, but my experience says efforts in that direction are in vein. At the same time I don't want so say it is WRONG to have such qualities, it is just that I prefer not to count them as a quality I think is worth working on. So I would positively surprised if somebody tries and achieves this, but I have my reasons not to start thinking or working in that direction with this logo. 4. You're kind of right here, too: "possibly maintain some continuity with the current logo..." This is absolutely true since it hurts the recognition and acceptance of the Project if it changes the logo all the time. You want to avoid that, and evolve slowly to meet new expectations or fashion or whatever. But you say "possibly", and I see no possibility since there are just too much elements that make this logo not work. We enter the real of interpretation again, and this is to a degree subjective to my ideas but: - What does a magnifying glass in a logo mean? Is the map too small? is the project just about searching or finding? Did you ever use one of those devices with OSM - or at all (other than burning inscets with it when you were small)? Nevertheless I also tried out to fiddle with it and maybe come up with a good design that at least works as a bridge to the old logo - because that's a value, too after all. but it did not work for me because the glass is always an element hiding everything else and adding a new layer to a situation where you want to be simple and clean. - What about the 0s and 1s - is this a binary map kind of the new stylish wrtistwatches? or does it want to tell me "hey I'm not analog any more - cool what!?..", or is it even a map in binary code only - and the sourcecode is not available? Talking of symbols: binary does not even have to be 0s and 1s, it is just the only convention that works at that scale. But having typographic elements in an illustrative logo is a bad idea for a good logo. - Then there is the paper map, actually a quite good symbol that lends itself for a logo (and I did many designs in that direction). So I see no real problem here per se. BUT: If you choose to stick to the paper map you have to get rid of the little details, wich essentially leaves you with a
[OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 21:43, SteveC wrote: Some selective replying... > Have a look at waze's twitter feed. *That* is the kind of community > building we need to be doing now. Agreed, but you personally control the openstreetmap twitter account don't you? If you think waze's twitter account is nice (what it mostly does is answer a bunch of user questions, which implies a dedicated support team sitting behind it). Then perhaps you should give other people access to that account so they can field user questions under the of OpenStreetMap banner. This is perhaps unfairly snarky, but maybe then we'd have more user help from @openstreetmap and less stuff like this: http://twitter.com/openstreetmap/status/13991402867 That isn't representative of the typical tweet from @openstreetmap, but unhelpful stuff like which you seemingly sent to the wrong account does pop up from time to time. > Look at their site design. Look at mapzen. None of it's perfect, but > it's generally a lot better than where we are. I think it would be neat if Mapzen was optionally available on OpenStreetMap.org, I asked you about this before[1] and you thought it was too. Perhaps Mapzen's source repository could be hosted publicly somewhere to make that easy? More generally, I agree with your point that we should have more of a "let's just do it" culture, but it also doesn't help much to have what are essentially unfinished drive-by improvements like the website redesign and now the logo which just seem to stir up a lot of dust, and never go anywhere. I don't mean that it's your fault, just that there's obviously a lot of disagreement about what we should be doing. I we keep having these discussions because don't have any clear direction for what we want to *do* with OpenStreetMap.org. A lot of people here (including, it seems, the people that decide what goes on the site) want openstreetmap.org to be just about the data. That's fine, but at the same time the first thing a newbie sees on the site is a giant map, suggesting we're trying to be some Google Maps-alike. The thing is, we make a very bad Google Maps, just compare stuff like this: http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=17295062644392818820 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/427855410 I keep introducing people to OpenStreetMap and they keep asking me questions like "that's neat, but how do I get directions", to which the answer is "oh there's some third party service that does that, just let me dig it up from some dungeon on the wiki real quick". So how about this for a suggestion: Let's make a new tab on the website to the left of "Map" called "About" or "Project" or something like that. The content of that page would be raw HTML that would be maintained on the wiki somewhere (with a preview before rollout). This is how the http://wikipedia.org/ main page is managed[2]. Then the first thing you'd see when you go to openstreetmap.org would be some context, you'd see that we're a data providing project but that we have an example map. You'd also note that there were a bunch of 3rd party projects that are doing neat things (maposmatic, openstreetbrowse etc.). And that if you wanted something more Google Maps like, or an alternate editor you might enjoy CloudMade, Mapzen, JOSM etc. While we keep fighting over what we should do, a lot of people are already doing it in true OpenStreetMap fashion. They're just not getting as much exposure as they might be getting if they were more prominently advertised. I volunteer to implement the required technical stuff, given that it doesn't get shot down in the replies to follow. 1. http://www.mail-archive.com/d...@openstreetmap.org/msg10573.html 2. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_template ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On 17 May 2010 22:31, Steve Bennett wrote: > Could it be done selectively - only in urban areas? No need for an > extra zoom level in the desert... That would at least help with the > storage and generation aspects. Most map tile systems setup with mod_tile only generate on request already, and depending if and how tiles are set to expire and/or delete the space could be recovered within a reasonable time if those tiles aren't used. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] lazyweb: what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend
On 17 May 2010 22:47, Joseph Reeves wrote: > HTC Desire: if you want an iPhone without the ponce factor There is a lot of android phones to pick from, not sure how many allow root access or you can get root access with them. > Openmoko FreeRunner: if you want to run Debian on this Linux-based > wifi gps phone. Isn't the FreeRunner limited to GPRS or EDGE only? Might be an issue if you want 3G... Nokia also makes at least one linux based handset. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
Speaking of not enough zoom levels, locations in the more northern and more southern latitudes actually have an "extra" zoom level. Because of the Mercartor projection, locations near 60 degree latitude (north or south) have twice the linear scale as locations on the equator for the same zoom level. So if you guys think that zoom level 18 is not enough, consider that it's definitely not enough for equatorial places (like Singapore). On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:37 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: > On Mon, 17 May 2010 14:32:34 +0200, Fabio Alessandro Locati > wrote: > >> Adding a zoomlevel adds 4 tiles for each tile in the previous > zoomlevel. > >> You'll go from 91 billion tiles to 366 billion. > >> This meaning you need 4 times the load to generate, 4 times the storage > >> to > >> hold them, 4 times the traffic to display them. > > Mathematically speaking is true, but maybe is not true in real world. > > I have seen a lot of times people not using the last level of zoom > > (how many times you have to see a whole road or even more then one > > road? ) therefore the traffic will not be 4 times more. Also, even > > considering '4 times more' as true, we have to consider that is only 4 > > times more the traffic generated by the zoom level 18, not the whole > > OSM traffic. > > True. It will probably generate more traffic (it will in cases where > people zoom in to an area) but 4 times is probably overstating it (I was > extrapolation on the "4 times" bit too eagerly). > > Regards, > Maarten > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On 17 May 2010 17:32, Gregory wrote: > Now a lot of places are full of pro-mappers, we are doing house numbers, > shops, football pitch lines... > Do we need an extra zoom level? YES and I was thinking of posting about it but waited because I want to learn about simple tiles generation for small area using osmarender (where I could set my own zoom level and was suggested by amm at diary http://bit.ly/8Z6ieY ) . Openstreetmap could enrich the map experience like never before, now that some experienced mappers have started mapping shops inside a shopping mall . It definitely makes mapping easy in developing areas where most of the shops are situated side by side in a small area which is in contrast to UK/european shops which occupy large areas . Here is a small Tale of two shops : One nice lane in a bazaar of a small town I found two bakeries . One lies almost opposite to other . The nice bakery is called 'Taj bakery' other one is 'Golden Bakery ' Mapnik in a lower zoom level shows it as Golden bakery . I actually zoomed to a higher zoom level witha hope to see both bakeries . Unfortunately it could show only golden bakery :( Seeing it with data only shows the POI . I stopped mapping all the bazaars because Indian streets unfortunately are constructed as bazaars with sometimes collection of similar selling item. And I am forced to NOT map selectively some shop when I am mapping those bazaars . Selecting some shop as important and some shop as not important is very daunting task :( Higher population areas have close knit shops I am wondering why someone has not demanded for detailed mapping in those areas. Coming to extra processing power & bandwidth I think its time to move ahead . I think that atleast osmarender which has a lower zoom level when compared to mapnik and should immediately set to mapnik zoom level ( just a matter of personal liking towards osmarender ) -- pavithran sakamuri http://look-pavi.blogspot.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
Hi, Claudius wrote: > Am 17.05.2010 12:18, Richard Fairhurst: >> Frederik Ramm wrote: >>> I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people >>> add feedback would be difficult to do >> http://www.skobbler.co.uk/osmbugs > > www.openstreetbugs.org > > Are we talking feedback on the data or feedback on the project? > I understood the latter. Yes, Steve's "Feedback Tab" was about the latter. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
Nice, I've added a 'downloads' section on each of Canada's provincial wiki pages, for those who dont need upto the minuite Garmin Maps. Thanks to Cloudmade.com for having the .osm files made. -i'll need to figure out how to get my listing on their Sam On 5/17/10, Andrew McCarthy wrote: > Hi, > > On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 08:48:53PM -0400, Sami Dalouche wrote: >> The http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php page contains only >> auto-routable maps, right ? >> >> My current need is to get : >> - routable maps for Quebec, Vermont, New Hampshire, and NY >> - hiking maps for Quebec, Vermont, New Hampshire, and NY >> >> But more generally, I think I would like to (and think it would benefit >> the OSM community if it were possible) be able to just go one one >> website, that presents me with all the maps I can download for a given >> (predefined) area, and quickly load it to my GPS device. > > There's also http://gpsmapsearch.com/ which links to other people's > maps. This is the highest referrer to my own web page of Irish Garmin > maps. > > Andrew > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Twitter: @Acrosscanada Blogs: http://acrosscanadatrails.posterous.com/ http://Acrosscanadatrails.blogspot.com Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/sam.vekemans Skype: samvekemans IRC: irc://irc.oftc.net #osm-ca Canadian OSM channel (an open chat room) @Acrosscanadatrails ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] lazyweb: what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend
HTC Desire: if you want an iPhone without the ponce factor -or- Openmoko FreeRunner: if you want to run Debian on this Linux-based wifi gps phone. Cheers, Joseph On 17 May 2010 13:37, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: > Hi all, > > here is a question from one of my friends, > > what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend? > > any suggestions? > > thanks, > mike > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Hello all, Frederik Ramm typed: > > You mean that to keep pace with Waze and Google Map Maker, we should > simply drop the libertarian bullshit and become just another company > with top-down decision making and a marketing department that does > whatever seems best? Just because others manage abuse their > "community" by taking their work and giving them nothing in return, > save perhaps for a few stars in a ranking list, we should try to pull > off the same? SteveC typed: > For fscks sake Frederik, I didn't say anything about dropping any of > our good stuff like community or data model or open sourceness. > > It's really simple - they have a nicer website, they have nicer tools, > they have more users than we do (3 times as many) in a fraction of the > time and they're far, far better at creating and managing a community > of users that we're only starting to get to grips with. All you do is > scare them away. I do not feel I am part of 'a community' but specifically of the "OpenStreetMap community". Many communities are different. Regards, -- signature.asc Description: Αυτό το σημείο του μηνύματος είναι ψηφιακά υπογεγραμμ ένο ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] lazyweb: what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend
Hi all, here is a question from one of my friends, *what linux-based wifi gps phone would you recommend?* any suggestions? thanks, mike ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On Mon, 17 May 2010 14:32:34 +0200, Fabio Alessandro Locati wrote: >> Adding a zoomlevel adds 4 tiles for each tile in the previous zoomlevel. >> You'll go from 91 billion tiles to 366 billion. >> This meaning you need 4 times the load to generate, 4 times the storage >> to >> hold them, 4 times the traffic to display them. > Mathematically speaking is true, but maybe is not true in real world. > I have seen a lot of times people not using the last level of zoom > (how many times you have to see a whole road or even more then one > road? ) therefore the traffic will not be 4 times more. Also, even > considering '4 times more' as true, we have to consider that is only 4 > times more the traffic generated by the zoom level 18, not the whole > OSM traffic. True. It will probably generate more traffic (it will in cases where people zoom in to an area) but 4 times is probably overstating it (I was extrapolation on the "4 times" bit too eagerly). Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
> Adding a zoomlevel adds 4 tiles for each tile in the previous zoomlevel. > You'll go from 91 billion tiles to 366 billion. > This meaning you need 4 times the load to generate, 4 times the storage to > hold them, 4 times the traffic to display them. Mathematically speaking is true, but maybe is not true in real world. I have seen a lot of times people not using the last level of zoom (how many times you have to see a whole road or even more then one road? ) therefore the traffic will not be 4 times more. Also, even considering '4 times more' as true, we have to consider that is only 4 times more the traffic generated by the zoom level 18, not the whole OSM traffic. I think it would very important to know the actual saturation of processors, hd and traffic to be able to give a though point of view over adding a new zoom level. my two cents, Fabio -- Fabio Alessandro Locati Home: Segrate, Milan, Italy (GMT +1) Phone: +39-328-3799681 MSN/Jabber/E-Mail: fabioloc...@gmail.com PGP Fingerprint: 5525 8555 213C 19EB 25F2 A047 2AD2 BE67 0F01 CA61 Involved in: KDE, OpenStreetMap, Ubuntu, Wikimedia ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Maarten Deen wrote: > Adding a zoomlevel adds 4 tiles for each tile in the previous zoomlevel. > You'll go from 91 billion tiles to 366 billion. > This meaning you need 4 times the load to generate, 4 times the storage to > hold them, 4 times the traffic to display them. Could it be done selectively - only in urban areas? No need for an extra zoom level in the desert... That would at least help with the storage and generation aspects. Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
On Mon, 17 May 2010 13:02:53 +0100, Gregory wrote: > Now a lot of places are full of pro-mappers, we are doing house numbers, > shops, football pitch lines... Do we need an extra zoom level? > For example I'm learning to add buildings/shops and > see http://osm.org/go/euuOoC_pJ-- [1] You can only see about a third of > the shop/business names because of avoiding overlapping text. Potentially > businesses might start deleting shop names around them to ensure their > shop is displayed, or thinking up other 'tagging/mapping for the > renderer'. > The increased load(viewing tiles and creating tiles) is a point, how > much of a point? Adding a zoomlevel adds 4 tiles for each tile in the previous zoomlevel. You'll go from 91 billion tiles to 366 billion. This meaning you need 4 times the load to generate, 4 times the storage to hold them, 4 times the traffic to display them. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
On 17 May 2010 11:18, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > Frederik Ramm wrote: >> I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people >> add feedback would be difficult to do > > http://www.skobbler.co.uk/osmbugs > > Skobbler rocks. How about something like this? http://openstreetbugs.dev.openstreetmap.org/ apmon / kai has been woking on it. Code is here: http://git.openstreetmap.org/?p=rails.git;a=log;h=refs/heads/openstreetbugs / Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
Now a lot of places are full of pro-mappers, we are doing house numbers, shops, football pitch lines... Do we need an extra zoom level? For example I'm learning to add buildings/shops and see http://osm.org/go/euuOoC_pJ-- You can only see about a third of the shop/business names because of avoiding overlapping text. Potentially businesses might start deleting shop names around them to ensure their shop is displayed, or thinking up other 'tagging/mapping for the renderer'. The increased load(viewing tiles and creating tiles) is a point, how much of a point? -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Extra zoom level needed?
Now a lot of places are full of pro-mappers, we are doing house numbers, shops, football pitch lines... Do we need an extra zoom level? For example I'm learning to add buildings/shops and see http://osm.org/go/euuOoC_pJ-- You can only see about a third of the shop/business names because of avoiding overlapping text. Potentially businesses might start deleting shop names around them to ensure their shop is displayed, or thinking up other 'tagging/mapping for the renderer'. The increased load(viewing tiles and creating tiles) is a point, how much of a point? -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
El 17/05/2010 1:53, SteveC escribió: > I'll send you a "I love you bean" and give you a big kiss on stage at SOTM. > > How about it? That'd be quite gay, Steve. -- Iván Sánchez Ortega ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
Am 17.05.2010 12:18, Richard Fairhurst: > > Frederik Ramm wrote: >> I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people >> add feedback would be difficult to do > > http://www.skobbler.co.uk/osmbugs www.openstreetbugs.org Are we talking feedback on the data or feedback on the project? I understood the latter. Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
Frederik Ramm wrote: > I don't think that an a patch for the rails port which lets people > add feedback would be difficult to do http://www.skobbler.co.uk/osmbugs Skobbler rocks. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/new-logo-tp5046672p5064419.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki contributions
Am 17.05.2010 00:59, Frederik Ramm: > Hi, > > SteveC wrote: >> Only a large scale change is going to fix that, bar a few things that >> you've already shot down like having a feedback tab. Something so >> obvious and easy to do that I've been asked multiple times why on >> Earth we haven't done it. > > As you surely have been told already, a feedback tab needs people to > process the feedback otherwise it will just annoy everyone. Has a > solution to this been proposed? I would volunteer for viewing through the feedback and and gather regular reports on their content. Claudius ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
Frederik Ramm wrote: > I think my grief with the suggestion is that not only does it not tell > the OSM story but IMHO tells a wrong story. I think if it were like one > of those 70s logos, just OSM written in a funny font, I'd probably still > find it extremely bland but at least it would not suggest that we're > just another POI collection project, or just another Wikimapia or so. How about replacing the flag with a pencil drawing a line across the map bit? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new logo
On 17 May 2010 07:48, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > Roy Wallace wrote: > > I really like Robert's contribution. But I guess I understand, now, > > that some people think it falls short on story-telling. > > I think my grief with the suggestion is that not only does it not tell > the OSM story but IMHO tells a wrong story. I think if it were like one > of those 70s logos, just OSM written in a funny font, I'd probably still > find it extremely bland but at least it would not suggest that we're > just another POI collection project, or just another Wikimapia or so. > > This is my deep concern too. It is very important that we are *not* like all the other projects. When someone explained why that 0s and 1s were in the logo because they are the data behind the map, Robert said that was a bit lame in today's digital age. I had to stand up away from the computer at that point, clearly he didn't know or hadn't understood why the project exists. Feel free to blame bad design/UI for not getting to an explanation page, some say our openstreetmap.org page shouldn't have a slippy map at all, and I can *almost* agree. I would possibly take my comment back that Robert's logo looks like a clip art (I think I was the first to say it), about 90% of people consider that an insult including me, and I see it can very much be a matter of opinion. But if I remember correctly it was in response to Robert saying the current logo looked like a clip art. For the record my opinion thinks it is like a clip art for a golf course. When we talk about clip art and the proposed logo in the same message, I think of those strange stick figures you get in Microsoft clip art (someone might remind me of their name). Robert, in regards to asking for permission to create the logo first. No you don't need it to create something, and it is very good for you to do so. However talking about a logo with people first is helpful, you could have discovered an OSM Foundation logo redesign was already in progress, and you might have gained some knowledge about the image OSM people want to convey (through branding generally, which includes logos). -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Garmin Maps
Hi, On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 08:48:53PM -0400, Sami Dalouche wrote: > The http://garmin.na1400.info/routable.php page contains only > auto-routable maps, right ? > > My current need is to get : > - routable maps for Quebec, Vermont, New Hampshire, and NY > - hiking maps for Quebec, Vermont, New Hampshire, and NY > > But more generally, I think I would like to (and think it would benefit > the OSM community if it were possible) be able to just go one one > website, that presents me with all the maps I can download for a given > (predefined) area, and quickly load it to my GPS device. There's also http://gpsmapsearch.com/ which links to other people's maps. This is the highest referrer to my own web page of Irish Garmin maps. Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
