Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Tom MacWright 
Given that we're in the process of launching iD, we need to set some basic
guidelines so that this conversation actually results in launching iD
rather than continues to blue-sky and OT.

Thus, for something like 'is iD dangerous to use', it cannot be a question
of 'what's the most wonderful way that iD could be safe' since that is
infinite, but it should be 'is iD as safe as existing options', because
that is finite, and we have finite time.

I, like you, love to dream big. That's what the next version is for.


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 7:05 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Tom MacWright  wrote:
>
>> In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have
>> safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment
>> has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does
>> it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is "no")
>>
>
> It is clear that the project team's sights are set far higher than
> replicating P2.
> iD raises the bar, as should any project that wholesale replaces another.
> Instead the question should be "what achievable workflows have a shot at
> helping starting mappers turn into quality repeat mappers"?
>
> 
> In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more
> prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better
> delete workflows.
> Particularly on POIs the single lone trash can could be confused with
> another feature, and it is on top of features one might want to inspect.
>  P2's delete key binding was broader than needed for efficient editing, and
> iD carried it over equally.
>
> Relations are opaque in JOSM and P2: iD has the opportunity to raise the
> bar and take the mystery out of relations.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Bryce Nesbitt 
On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Tom MacWright  wrote:

> In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have
> safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment
> has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does
> it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is "no")
>

It is clear that the project team's sights are set far higher than
replicating P2.
iD raises the bar, as should any project that wholesale replaces another.
Instead the question should be "what achievable workflows have a shot at
helping starting mappers turn into quality repeat mappers"?


In regards to mistakes: I think it clear that iD makes delete more
prominent and easy to hit than P2, and misses opportunities to have better
delete workflows.
Particularly on POIs the single lone trash can could be confused with
another feature, and it is on top of features one might want to inspect.
 P2's delete key binding was broader than needed for efficient editing, and
iD carried it over equally.

Relations are opaque in JOSM and P2: iD has the opportunity to raise the
bar and take the mystery out of relations.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Janko Mihelić 
2013/8/20 Tom MacWright 

> In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have
> safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment
> has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does
> it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is "no")
>

JOSM and Potlatch show directly on the 'via' node that there is something
on a junction. That way an editor can see there is something that should
maybe be left alone. With ID it's less visible.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Tom MacWright 
In this case and others, we should keep in mind whether P2 or JOSM have
safer or smarter behavior. Would they 'notice' that this new road segment
has meaning? Put another way: iD will never prevent all mistakes, but does
it prevent less than P2 and co? (in this case, I think the answer is "no")


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>
>> It has been claimed often that "iD damages relations". Can we somehow
>> substantiate that claim?
>>
>> Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case
>> that involves
>> * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely
>> to be encountered by a new contributor;
>> * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor
>> and that results in a broken relation in iD?
>> In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any)
>> does iD display about the problem?
>>
>> This is a honest question because I haven't researched the claims in
>> depth ...
>
>
> Here's a way I once damaged a relation, and could do it again with iD:
>
> There was a section of messed up road.  In order to keep the context on
> screen, I drew the "correct" road, tagged it as a road, then deleted the
> squiggle.
> iD could improve on this by noting I've drawn a line between two ways
> within the same relation, and asking me what I meant.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Bryce Nesbitt 
On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> It has been claimed often that "iD damages relations". Can we somehow
> substantiate that claim?
>
> Could anyone provide a detailed description of a non-esoteric use case
> that involves
> * a kind (and structure) of relation that is very common and thus likely
> to be encountered by a new contributor;
> * a simple-looking edit that is likely to be made by a new contributor and
> that results in a broken relation in iD?
> In what way will the relation be broken, and what indication (if any) does
> iD display about the problem?
>
> This is a honest question because I haven't researched the claims in depth
> ...


Here's a way I once damaged a relation, and could do it again with iD:

There was a section of messed up road.  In order to keep the context on
screen, I drew the "correct" road, tagged it as a road, then deleted the
squiggle.
iD could improve on this by noting I've drawn a line between two ways
within the same relation, and asking me what I meant.
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD crashing repeatedly.

2013-08-20 Thread Bryce Nesbitt 
A strong bug report would list the Operating System and version, and
include reports on the behavior on other comparable platforms (e.g. what
happens with Chrome/IE/Opera on the same machine), and with other complex
javascript applications.

A browser crashing is a browser bug: nothing iD can do should crash
Firefox.  The bug is a reportable bug against Firefox, and it might be a
really hard one to ever resolve.
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Re: [OSM-talk] iD crashing repeatedly.

2013-08-20 Thread Grant Slater 
On 20 August 2013 13:46, Dave F.  wrote:
>
> With the desire to make ID the default editor I've tried using it to see if
> it's up to P2's functionality. Sadly it keeps crashing almost instantly just
> from panning/zooming around. It crashes Firefox (23.01) completely &
> displays a Mozilla crash report, the (intricate) details of which are listed
> below. Before logging a report does anyone if there is a simple solution?
>

This is Firefox crashing, not iD.
At a guess I would imagine it is bad video drivers playing up with
Firefox's hardware acceleration.
You could try disable the acceleration: Firefox's Options and go to
Advanced. Uncheck "Use Hardware Acceleration When Available."

/ Grant

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[OSM-talk] iD crashing repeatedly.

2013-08-20 Thread Dave F. 

Hi

With the desire to make ID the default editor I've tried using it to see 
if it's up to P2's functionality. Sadly it keeps crashing almost 
instantly just from panning/zooming around. It crashes Firefox (23.01) 
completely & displays a Mozilla crash report, the (intricate) details of 
which are listed below. Before logging a report does anyone if there is 
a simple solution?


AdapterDeviceID: 0x0de5
AdapterVendorID: 0x10de
Add-ons: 
wrc%40avast.com:8.0.1489,%7B972ce4c6-7e08-4474-a285-3208198ce6fd%7D:2.0,%7B972ce4c6-7e08-4474-a285-3208198ce6fd%7D:23.0.1,en-gb%40flyingtophat.co.uk:1.19.3,%7Bd10d0bf8-f5b5-c8b4-a8b2-2b9879e08c5d%7D:2.3.2

AvailablePageFile: 10401120256
AvailablePhysicalMemory: 4222619648
AvailableVirtualMemory: 3455971328
BuildID: 20130814063812
CrashTime: 1377002725
EMCheckCompatibility: true
InstallTime: 1376745423
Notes: AdapterVendorID: 0x10de, AdapterDeviceID: 0x0de5, 
AdapterSubsysID: , AdapterDriverVersion: 8.17.12.6716

D2D? D2D+ DWrite? DWrite+ D3D10 Layers? D3D10 Layers+
ProductID: {ec8030f7-c20a-464f-9b0e-13a3a9e97384}
ProductName: Firefox
ReleaseChannel: release
SecondsSinceLastCrash: 469
StartupTime: 1377002680
SystemMemoryUsePercentage: 34
Theme: classic/1.0
Throttleable: 1
TotalVirtualMemory: 4294836224
URL: http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?editor=id#map=18/51.41199/-2.56781
Vendor: Mozilla
Version: 23.0.1
Winsock_LSP: MSAFD Tcpip [TCP/IP] : 2 : 1 : 
%SystemRoot%\system32\mswsock.dll

 MSAFD Tcpip [UDP/IP] : 2 : 2 :
 MSAFD Tcpip [RAW/IP] : 2 : 3 : %SystemRoot%\system32\mswsock.dll
 MSAFD Tcpip [TCP/IPv6] : 2 : 1 :
 MSAFD Tcpip [UDP/IPv6] : 2 : 2 : %SystemRoot%\system32\mswsock.dll
 MSAFD Tcpip [RAW/IPv6] : 2 : 3 :
 RSVP TCPv6 Service Provider : 2 : 1 : %SystemRoot%\system32\mswsock.dll
 RSVP TCP Service Provider : 2 : 1 :
 RSVP UDPv6 Service Provider : 2 : 2 : %SystemRoot%\system32\mswsock.dll
 RSVP UDP Service Provider : 2 : 2 :

This report also contains technical information about the state of the 
application when it crashed.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Chris Fleming 
On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 08:59:28AM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the default
> editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't explicitly
> chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch.

I say go for it, from all the conversations I've had with new and old
(non mailing list) mappers locally the consensus is that iD is a much
more accessible tool for newbies and is a pleasure to use.

Yes there is still a lot of work to do; we need to move forward and stop
looking over our shoulders 

Ban Potlatch!

Cheers
Chris


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Tom MacWright 
iD has a wonderful 'tutorial mode', as well as documentation that explains,
in detail, how to add POIs and do other actions. Given that iD is not
Potlatch, the ways you do these things is not the same as Potlatch, but new
users will not have used Potlatch and will use the tutorial to learn the
editor, rather than assuming that it does the same thing as Potlatch.

And, please, no more all-capitals and !s. I know it's the way you prefer to
communicate, but here on talk@ it's already terribly difficult to figure
out who's angry (everyone?) and what's yelling and what's normal
discussion, so it would be wonderful if you could try to adapt to a less
flashy style.


On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 6:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> Il giorno 19/ago/2013, alle ore 23:44, John Firebaugh <
> john.fireba...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> > Well, we could try sending them polite emails, welcoming them to the
> community, expressing appreciations for their contributions, and
> constructively suggesting how to improve their future edits.
>
>
> personally I do this, and usually I also recommend they use Josm for their
> edits ;-)
> I'd love to recommend iD in the future, but currently despite some visual
> and practical points on the pro iD side we are not yet there (IMHO)
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org - some numbers

2013-08-20 Thread SomeoneElse 

Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

it has been proposed to make the newly released iD v1.1 the 
default editor on openstreetmap.org, meaning that if someone doesn't 
explicitly chose an editor they will open iD instead of Potlatch.


In an attempt to put some numbers to to the "errors made by new mappers" 
debate, I've done a count-back of new users and editors that they use 
for they area that I keep an eye on in the UK (England and bits of 
Wales, not including bits that I'm unfamiliar with such as London and 
the south-east)


During the last month in this area:

P2  iD  JOSM Other (Wheelmap / Go Map! / POI+)
Made no newbie errors34  17 3 3
Made at least one newbie error   40  16 1 3
Made more serious errors  5   0 1  0

Where I've noticed that a mapper used both iD and P2 I've counted them 
in both columns.


"Newbie errors" on Potlatch include things like nodes duplicating ways, 
and unjoined ways.


"Newbie errors" on iD include things like unexpected deletions and 
changing "thing X" to be "thing y"when "thing x" still exists.


"More serious errors" are things like doodles (including people trying 
to draw bike routes using MQ's Potlatch), misinterpreting imagery to 
draw roads that don't exist / add roads that aren't there and one of the 
perennial "delete things to make printed map nicer". People who have 
chosen iD or JOSM have chosen a different editor to the default - I 
suspect that the doodlers aren't making errors because they're using 
Potlatch; they're doing it because they don't know what OSM _is_. 
They're the easiest errors to fix, though.


FWIW I've not noticed a greater proportion of messed up relations with 
either P2 or iD.  The area that I'm looking at has less of those than 
e.g. central London, though.  This period largely predates relations in 
the iD UI.


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


Il giorno 19/ago/2013, alle ore 23:44, John Firebaugh 
 ha scritto:

> Well, we could try sending them polite emails, welcoming them to the 
> community, expressing appreciations for their contributions, and 
> constructively suggesting how to improve their future edits.


personally I do this, and usually I also recommend they use Josm for their 
edits ;-)
I'd love to recommend iD in the future, but currently despite some visual and 
practical points on the pro iD side we are not yet there (IMHO)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Paul Norman 
P1 was removed from the list because an absurdly high percentage of new
mappers were still choosing it as their first editor, clearly in error. I
believe you can still set it as your default editor if you really want to,

 

From: Dave F. [mailto:dave...@madasafish.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2013 3:13 PM
To: Toby Murray
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

 

Thanks for that tip. Although it would be so much easier if it hadn't been
remove from the list.

Dave F.  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Lester Caine 

Lester Caine wrote:

people seem to think that all these nice new wizbangs are progress such as that
informationless curved pallet


Me again ...
*NOW* I'm getting icons on the curved pallet!
That was blank while I was playing earlier ... did I just happen to hit 
something to enable them?
Only having the delete button showing for nodes is even more accident prone? ... 
but while that pallet does get out of the way at times, both it and the other 
pop-up helps always seem to be just where you want to be moving to and their 
flashing on and off is more irritating then helpful once you have seen them a 
couple of times :( And I do need to work out how to get Id to properly handle 
areas built up by adding detail to existing areas and lines. Taking an existing 
block and sub dividing into separate buildings is the usual detail I'm adding 
and while P2 is not ideal, Id does not seem to understand a closed loop at all 
unless it created it as an area?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Endorsing properietary social platforms (was: Making iD the default editor on osm.org)

2013-08-20 Thread Paul Norman 
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer [mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com]
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Endorsing properietary social platforms (was:
> Making iD the default editor on osm.org)
> 
> Il giorno 18/ago/2013, alle ore 03:07, Kathleen Danielson
>  ha scritto:
> 
> > in some countries, there's more OSM activity on Facebook than there is
> on the national OSM mailing list, and all that without our involvement.
> 
> this sounds like a problem though, as it could imply you have to be on
> Facebook (or similar) in these countries in order to participate in
> local discussions.

Yes, in some countries the local community uses Facebook to communicate.

I periodically have to contact a local community, so I've looked at how 
they communicate. There are OSM local communities that meet primarily on

- OSM.org forums
- Google Groups
- Facebook
- 3rd party forums
- Mailing lists
- The OSM wiki
- Non-OSM wikis


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Lester Caine 

Lester Caine wrote:

NO ... I'm not finding this an improvement ... P2 has it's faults, but at least
it IS usable for the quick editing. Id needs you to know a lot more already to
be able to add the sort of simple stuff a novice user will be looking at first
:( Add the P2 menus in place of the limited list and that would be an
improvement ... with the nice coloured icons ... it makes picking up a group of
similar node flags a lot easier!


Just to expand on that ... I've added a few boundaries and buildings using both 
editors. On P2 I can draw a line around an area then add lines to create the 
building detail. In Id I can't get it to recognise the new closed line as an 
area? And I can't see how to make the building a house or a garage ... so I 
dropped back to P2 to complete that detail!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Jukka Rahkonen 
Frederik Ramm  remote.org> writes:


> 
> (It would be cool if the "make square" tool would reject the making 
> square of very un-square things like roundabouts, but all our other 
> editors will happily square a circle for you so it would be a bit unfair 
> to demand different from iD I think.)

At least for me the "make square" tool in P2 adjusts only lines which
already make an almost right angle and that is indeed cool. But that is just
a detail and not a strong reason for keeping P2 as a default editor. Myself
I continue to use P2 because I can configure several custom base layers and
select them with function keys and because for me P2 draws vectors faster
when panning and zooming (Windows 7, Firefox v. 23.0.1) but iD is also good
enough. Both editors have their own strong points and I do not hate either
of them. I like Merkaartor and JOSM too but perhaps I am on a wrong list
with my positive feelings. Well, I admit that the Java applet was not an
especially reliable editor.

-Jukka Rahkonen-


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Lester Caine 

Kai Krueger wrote:

Toby Murray-2 wrote

>We aren't trying to make The Perfect Editor here.  We are trying to replace
>an aging editor with something more current. Let us not make perfection the
>enemy of progress.



Although a perfect editor would of course be nice, it isn't really
achievable so yes, we don't want to let the perfect be enemy of progress.
But we do want to make sure it actually is progress.


I think the fundamental problem is 'aging' ... people seem to think that all 
these nice new wizbangs are progress such as that informationless curved pallet. 
Now if there were some nice COLOURED icons on it to remind me what each button 
as then I'd not have to hover over every one.


My main problem however is the map display itself! I currently have Id up on one 
screen and P2 on the other showing the same area of map with openstreetview as a 
background, and to be honest, the P2 display may seem 'dated' but at least it's 
crisp and readable. The horizontal hashing and other 'eyecandy' on the Id 
display make it very difficult to see the details that I could now be tracing. 
Move to satellite and the 'effect' on my monitor is even more pronounced. I need 
to switch off the hashing as optically it's distorting the view of the field 
boundaries below.


Click on an area that you want to realign, and that pigging pallet overlays the 
very lines you want to SEE to move. And I'm with others here, having the 
'delete' as the first 'hidden button' is not the safest of places to have it! At 
the very least a 'do you want to' is essential. But I WILL add here I have the 
SAME complaint with P2 anyway! There should be a 'do you want to' but with P2 at 
least it is a positive action to go down to the corner, something right under 
your mouse is all to easy to hit.


How do I drop a simple POI in on Id? The menu on P2 may take up a large area, 
but simply dragging something suitable onto the map works well for me and is 
normally the sort of fast update I'm trying to achieve. I've not worked out how 
to do that yet on Id? It keeps highlighting the landuse area I'm dropping into 
rather than giving me a new node? OK not sure what was going on then, but now 
I've found it, but the list of options for nodes is going to be a lot slower to 
navigate ... pigging monochorme icons again ... and half of the ones I use don't 
even have their icon (gate for instance).


NO ... I'm not finding this an improvement ... P2 has it's faults, but at least 
it IS usable for the quick editing. Id needs you to know a lot more already to 
be able to add the sort of simple stuff a novice user will be looking at first 
:( Add the P2 menus in place of the limited list and that would be an 
improvement ... with the nice coloured icons ... it makes picking up a group of 
similar node flags a lot easier!


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Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org

2013-08-20 Thread Patrick Kilian 
Hi,

>  4. There are concerns that iD (and thus osm.org ) will
> promote Facebook and Twitter, over other social networks.

The problem I have with those big share buttons is not that they promote
Facebook or Twitter over G+ or other sites but that the (hopefully soon
default) editor promotes commercial "social" sites at all!

Those sites to not have you or me or the mapper sharing edits as
customers but large advertising networks. We are the product they sell.
Featuring their logo in such a prominent way suggests that a new mapper
should tweet his edit or post it to facebook to be a good member of our
community. I see that as very harmful to our undertaking of liberating
data and knowledge from the giants of the web to create a free and open
map of the world. Pushing integration with social sites directly
undermines our message of "you don't have to give all your data to
google to see them on a nice map".

I guess I should really start a company that openly sells user data to
the most evil customers that I can find and demand equal placement in iD
just to prove a point.

If you really want that feature in iD because you are a stupid "I have
nothing to hide" post-privacy hipster who feels cool if he is a mayor of
$somewhere in foursquare, at least hide it behind a neutral "share with
friends" button. It don't have to be plugable or fancy, but don't give
it equal footing with "view on map".

And no I wont stop bitching and complaining no matter if you call me
caustic or harmful in private discussions. When I made remarks about
"the NSA doesn't have to track you, you give all your data to facebook
anyway" I was considered slightly nuts. Now we learned about prism. When
I said "I don't want to use google docs for HOT stuff" I was considered
nuts, but now we've seen that a 5 minute google outage reduces the
internet traffic by about 40% percent. We really have to stop using the
giant of the internet. And I will continue raising that point even if it
makes me feel like Casandra.



Despite all that I find iD a very usable editor. I wont abandon JOSM for
it, but I wont hessitate to recommend iD either and I really hope that
it will be the default editor soon.


Just my 2 cents,
Patrick "Petschge" Kilian

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