Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Simon Poole]

Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11 schrieb Robert Banick:
...
> 
> Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the project
> and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM contributors, not
> to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and perhaps
> contribute to the project. As a result the remote component has gotten
> an outsized amount of attention within the greater OSM community even
> though it’s only half of the story. 
...


I had a long diatribe here as a response that I thought better of, but I
really did want to point out that the remote part of missing maps has
never addressed the core OSM contributors at all. I don't think, even
with giving everybody a lot of slack, that it can be seen as anything
else than a marketing activity of the involved organisations in which
the net result is not of any real concern. And I don't think shifting
the blame for the above to the journalists is in any way fair.


Simon





signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 15.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not something 
> wanted in OSM.


who in osm would be able to reject what can be mapped?


> To some native farmers those paths may be very significant. The rejection 
> reflects a 'western culture'.


farmers or hunters? If something is sufficiently significant  to someone (and 
persistent) to map it and potentially maintain the mapping, he will just do it, 
not?

cheers 
Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 15/06/2015, Arun Ganesh  wrote:
> Maps are a relatively new concept in Indian society and is still used only
> by a small minority in urban areas in daily life. Naturally one cannot
> expect strong OSM communities at this stage till maps gain wider
> reach. Remote mapping in cases like this can serve to catalyze the process
> by making the maps more attractive to use. I happened to talk about a few
> of these points in my lightning talk at SOTMUS last week which might give
> more context on mapping in India:
>
> https://youtu.be/4fK_cWhCQbE?t=22m1s
>
> Devoting more resources to make these maps and tools accessible to the
> common person would be more fruitful than worrying about colonizing
> countries by remote mapping.

Do you have any specific ideas on what would make OSM more compeling
in India ? I'm thinking along the lines of working better with cheap
phones and bad/expensive network coverage.Maybe smarter
surveying/editing tools. Maybe a combined Mapillary photo + OSM note
app.Maybe offline maps that are cut into smaller pieces.Maybe a smart
social media campaing.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Jo]

Also many of our paths started out as animal paths. In some areas they may
be the only way to get from A to B.

Jo

2015-06-15 10:55 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 15.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> >
> > There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not
> something wanted in OSM.
>
>
> who in osm would be able to reject what can be mapped?
>
>
> > To some native farmers those paths may be very significant. The
> rejection reflects a 'western culture'.
>
>
> farmers or hunters? If something is sufficiently significant  to someone
> (and persistent) to map it and potentially maintain the mapping, he will
> just do it, not?
>
> cheers
> Martin
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 15/06/2015, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> Am 15.06.2015 um 01:24 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> There was a humours suggestion to map animal paths, rejected as not
>> something wanted in OSM.

For the record: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Pascal%20Cuoq/diary/1

> who in osm would be able to reject what can be mapped?

It's not rejected, it's discussed and argued about. In the link above,
the mapper was asking for community opinion to begin with.

>> To some native farmers those paths may be very significant. The rejection
>> reflects a 'western culture'.

I plead guilty of westerner bias in my answer in that blog, but the OP
was mapping in France, so a westerner POV was needed in this case. And
I maintain that animal trails probably should not be mapped in France.

> farmers or hunters? If something is sufficiently significant  to someone
> (and persistent) to map it and potentially maintain the mapping, he will
> just do it, not?

I agree with that, in France or elsewhere. *IF* the trails are
significant, persistent, and OSM-maintainable, they should be mapped.
But I think that the conditions are rarely met. Surely there are
regions of the world where they are more easily met, and asking the
local community will yield a different answer. Hopefully there's a
local OSM community there :)

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Lester Caine]

On 15/06/15 09:59, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
> Do you have any specific ideas on what would make OSM more compeling
> in India ? I'm thinking along the lines of working better with cheap
> phones and bad/expensive network coverage.Maybe smarter
> surveying/editing tools. Maybe a combined Mapillary photo + OSM note
> app.Maybe offline maps that are cut into smaller pieces.Maybe a smart
> social media campaing.

You think it's only India that has problems with bad/expensive network
coverage? I can't drive down the M5 without loosing a data connection,
so OSMAND is the only way to work and that works on cheap android
devices. I've actually got it running on a £40 tablet for a bigger sat
nav display ...

All that is lacking is that other apps go to OSMAND rather than trying
to get google maps running ... which only works with a network link?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

>I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
> personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for
> money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs
> against the spirit of OSM.
>

I wonder what you think of "holiday"-mapping. Does not have this the same
problems as remote mapping ?
I'm thinking here of e.g. Overlanders that will map campsites and other
tourist information on a otherwise possibly empty map in Africa or Asia.
But I also thought that there are other popular holiday destination in e.g.
Europe that were mapped by tourists instead a locals.

Do you see this as a problem as well ?

regards

m
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Simon Poole]

Am 15.06.2015 um 11:37 schrieb Lester Caine:
...
> 
> All that is lacking is that other apps go to OSMAND rather than trying
> to get google maps running ... which only works with a network link?
> 
...

We're really getting substantially off topic now.

Apps on android in general don't have specific other apps hardwired to
perform tasks that they themselves don't handle. They will use a so
called "intent" to indicate that they want to do something, for example
display a location on a map, see

https://developer.android.com/guide/components/intents-common.html#Maps

the Android system will them either provide the user a selection of the
apps that have indicated that they can perform the requested action, or,
if the user has indicated the preferred app for a task, use that.

The latter can naturally be changed by the user. Both OSMand and
Vespucci support geo URIs on android.


https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/android/intents

lists all the intents that google maps support. I have to say that I
haven't tested if all of these can be changed in the above fashion, it
is obvious from the documentation that google has made that a bit
harder. It would be interesting to see if you could convince android to
at least offer the option of starting Mapillary instead of Streetview.

Simon



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Þann 15.6.2015 10:07, skrifaði Marc Gemis:


On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:37 PM, Frederik Ramm > wrote:


   I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for
fun, for
money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea
that runs
against the spirit of OSM.


I wonder what you think of "holiday"-mapping. Does not have this the 
same problems as remote mapping ?
I'm thinking here of e.g. Overlanders that will map campsites and 
other tourist information on a otherwise possibly empty map in Africa 
or Asia.
But I also thought that there are other popular holiday destination in 
e.g. Europe that were mapped by tourists instead a locals.


Do you see this as a problem as well ?
I'm assuming no. I watch changesets in Iceland and we get a fair number 
of tourist changesets, which we welcome (and fix if needed - spelling 
mostly).


In 2009 Frederik gave an interview to Steve Coast where he said his 
biggest fear was that OSM would go towards elitism - that only certain 
people would be allowed to map. I'm hoping he hasn't changed his mind 
(although that is of course everyones prerogative). 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN1pjZsL1mA


Defining areas to be local and to only be touched by locals and, worse, 
forming their own unique cultural mapping style (buildings are now 
lines, roads are areas etc) that would be incompatible with the rest of 
the map, these things would be a form of elitism, no outsiders allowed.


There is no remote mapper that I know of that believes they can produce 
a better map than a local can, as I've categorized it in my tool then 
mapping is at least a two phase action, one that can be done remotely 
and the other locally. Sharing the remote burden all over the world 
instead of a small local populace, probably with limited internet 
connectivity, hardware and leisure time - to me that can only be a good 
thing.


No village left behind.

--Jói


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[maning sambale]

> There is no remote mapper that I know of that believes they can produce a
better map than a local can ... Sharing the remote burden all over the
world instead of a small local populace, probably with limited internet
connectivity, hardware and leisure time - to me that can only be a good
thing.

Agree. I dont think it should be a hardline stance of local vs remote.
There should be balance. For example, remotely mapping roads is useful for
us since it provides an initial framework for newbies to add POIs.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Lester Caine]

On 15/06/15 11:15, Simon Poole wrote:
>> All that is lacking is that other apps go to OSMAND rather than trying
>> > to get google maps running ... which only works with a network link?
> ...
> 
> We're really getting substantially off topic now.
> 
> Apps on android in general don't have specific other apps hardwired to
> perform tasks that they themselves don't handle. They will use a so
> called "intent" to indicate that they want to do something, for example
> display a location on a map,

The question started with 'remote mapping', and I see no reason that we
can't HELP any other parts of the world. In disaster areas, imagery is
made available fairly promptly and updating the on-line mapping is
something that can be done away from the scene, allowing those on the
ground to get on with the recovery effort, BUT if the local emergency
communications network also allows integration so that remote mappers
can fine tune the details then that has to be a help? Moving away from
the emergency environment, the same tools allow a proper conversation
between bodies in the field, and 'back office' bodies who can use higher
bandwidth connections to do the heavy grunt?

Google may control the platform, but they continue to prove their
unsuitability in that role, so there is perhaps a place for a more open
framework for both mapping and more general data management? Perhaps
managed via f-droid and designed for naive users using simple devices?
But of cause OSMAND does not come under that umbrella :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Joseph Reeves]

>Agree. I dont think it should be a hardline stance of local vs remote.
There should be balance. For example, remotely mapping roads is useful for
us since it provides an initial framework for newbies to add POIs.

Indeed, I've written up the same experience with remote building tracing:

http://hotosm.org/updates/2012-09-24_from_remote_tracing_to_field_mapping_in_padang

Photo'd:

https://twitter.com/iknowjoseph/status/248298952661811201

Cheers, Joseph






On 15 June 2015 at 12:40, maning sambale  wrote:

>
> > There is no remote mapper that I know of that believes they can produce
> a better map than a local can ... Sharing the remote burden all over the
> world instead of a small local populace, probably with limited internet
> connectivity, hardware and leisure time - to me that can only be a good
> thing.
>
> Agree. I dont think it should be a hardline stance of local vs remote.
> There should be balance. For example, remotely mapping roads is useful for
> us since it provides an initial framework for newbies to add POIs.
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 15/06/2015, Lester Caine  wrote:
> You think it's only India that has problems with bad/expensive network
> coverage?

Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
could improve things. Since this thread mentions the "westerner bias"
a lot, I prefer to ask to get educated about a particular local
community.

> I can't drive down the M5 without loosing a data connection,

Me too, losing network on the go, I hate it. But let's be honest :
this pales in comparison to the coverage issues in many countries
(presumably like India, but my experience in the matter is getting
old).

> so OSMAND is the only way to work and that works on cheap android
> devices. I've actually got it running on a £40 tablet for a bigger sat
> nav display ...
>
> All that is lacking is that other apps go to OSMAND rather than trying
> to get google maps running ... which only works with a network link?

I've got a pretty good todo-list of what would improve my European OSM
contributor's life, but I was curious about India. It has a huge
population, good level of IT skills, offline functionality needs,
good-but-not-great Google maps... It ought to be a prime location for
OSM to shine, but it isn't (yet). I wonder why.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Kate Chapman]

Simon,

Can you explain to me who the "core OSM" contributors are?

Is the issue that people doubt the usefulness of the remotely mapped data?
That we don't really believe in our own success?

-Kate

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
>
> Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11 schrieb Robert Banick:
> ...
> >
> > Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the project
> > and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM contributors, not
> > to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and perhaps
> > contribute to the project. As a result the remote component has gotten
> > an outsized amount of attention within the greater OSM community even
> > though it’s only half of the story.
> ...
>
>
> I had a long diatribe here as a response that I thought better of, but I
> really did want to point out that the remote part of missing maps has
> never addressed the core OSM contributors at all. I don't think, even
> with giving everybody a lot of slack, that it can be seen as anything
> else than a marketing activity of the involved organisations in which
> the net result is not of any real concern. And I don't think shifting
> the blame for the above to the journalists is in any way fair.
>
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Eros, Emily]

Hi all,

In the midst of the discussion about remote mapping, I couldn¹t help but
notice this comment from Sarah:

"In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman
but simply that it is not
interesting enough for them."

I was surprised to see this and I have to say that I disagree. I find it
hard to believe that half the population isn¹t interested in mapping just
because they are female; the active engagement of so many women in the OSM
community certainly suggests otherwise.

Maybe I am misreading the intent of that comment? If so, please disregard.
If not, and I¹m reading this correctly, then may I suggest looking deeper
to see if there are other factors (beyond pure lack of interest)
preventing the women you know from taking an interest in OSM? Maybe
there¹s a different engagement strategy you could consider?

#InterestedEnoughToMap,
Emily




>From: Sarah Hoffmann 
>To: Kate Chapman 
>Cc: Talk Openstreetmap 
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
>Message-ID: <20150614083150.ga20...@denofr.de>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>> Diversity to me has never just been gender. Though it has been shown
>>that
>> if you make a place welcoming to women it also makes it more inviting
>>for
>> other underrepresented groups. Intersectional feminism is about equality
>> for everyone.
>
>This argument still has a sour taste to me. In my experience, the issue
>is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman but simply that it is not
>interesting enough for them. The outcome is the same but the actions to
>take are vastly different. I do agree with you though, that finding
>a solution to attract more woman will also show a way to attract other
>underrepresented groups. After all, it is exactly the same argument as
>above: the interests of the map makers and the potential map users
>don't match.
>
>
>Sarah


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi all:

I have read all the emails of this thread, and found some of the views
about remote/local mapping as well as imports quite interesting. Anyway,
I have to say that, although this conversation can lead to some people
to enrich/modify their views about this subject, it won't lead to real
changes on the OSM mapping rules. It is amusing for me thinking on the
OSM community deciding to restrict the remote mapping or banning imports
in any way whatsoever. It would be a seriously destructive move, and I
would strongly oppose any such moves.

About remote vs. local mapping and import-yes vs. import-not, my opinion
is quite clear:

If you make me have to choose, I will tell you that I find local
on-the-ground mapping better than remote mapping. We should encourage
local mapping by local people (and growing local, active OSM
communities), but that doesn't mean that remote mapping by non-locals is
bad. I find remote mapping by non-local people very good and positive,
and we should also encourage people to map remotely as well as locally,
teaching them how to do that and what the limits are for both
approaches. I have mapped more than a million objects in the last 6
years in 84 countries, and I am ***very proud and happy*** of my remote
mapping, whether I knew the area on the ground or not. Needless to say,
when you map an area you don't know on the ground, you will apply a more
conservative approach. But that's it. Apart from that, I repeat, we
should not only say that remote mapping is a good thing, but in fact
teach/encourage people to join. And I will go on happy-remote-mapping as
I did up to now. And proudly.

My opinion about imports is similar. In a perfect world, we would map
everything from scratch, but we don't live in that mapping Paradise.
Importing data is a very good thing, and many of the data we have now in
OSM come from imported datasets. So, again, we should encourage and
welcome non-importing mapping, but we should also help and encourage, as
I do, those people who have data that want to import it to OSM and make
it a better geo-database. We use Imports Guidelines to assure any import
is done properly.

I honestly find that discouraging users on remotely mapping or on
importing data is destructive/negative for the growth and health of the
OSM community. But it's up to everyone of us to promote certain ways of
mapping and discourage others. We are a free community with freedom of
speech, aren't we?

Cheers,

Rafael. (edvac)

On 13/06/15 16:37, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>I'm known for being critical of armchair mapping by people with no
> personal connection tho the area being mapped. Whether done for fun, for
> money, or to help, I think that in most cases it is a bad idea that runs
> against the spirit of OSM.
> 
> (I'm willing to concede that there are exceptions, and that sometimes
> doing something that's against the spirit may still be useful. But these
> are individual cases, to be carefully justified, and remote mapping
> should never become anyone's standard mode of contribution.)
> 
> Until now I thought that the main exception, one that even I would have
> to accept, is mapping for humanitarian purposes.
> 
> I was all the more surprised - positively surprised - to read this
> thoughtful essay by Erica Hagen, who founded Map Kibera:
> 
> http://groundtruth.in/2015/06/05/osm-mapping-power-to-the-people/
> 
> I'd encourage everyone to read that. It questions some rarely questioned
> assumptions; it even says that mapping by locals doesn't really "count"
> if those locals are just doing it for the money (a sentiment that I've
> always felt but rarely dared to express, because who can expect locals
> in the poorest parts of the world to map "for fun" like privileged
> westerners do?).
> 
> It also says that "local" isn't "local" if the locals from the wealthy
> city map the slum in their midst. I've tended to routinely associate the
> call for "more diversity" in OSM as mainly being one for levelling the
> gender playing field but this article goes much further.
> 
> In some parts the article echoes a rather more acerbic posting written
> last month by Gwilym Eades, a university lecturer in London:
> 
> http://place-memes.blogspot.de/2015/05/the-hubris-of-proactive-disaster-mapping.html
> 
> which essentially accused humanitarian mapping (and as I would add, any
> remote mapping really) of "homogenising, westernising, and colonising"
> the map.
> 
> I don't agree with everything written in these postings but they
> certainly deserve some wider audience, and that's why I am writing this
> here - since neither author is on these lists and I haven't seen their
> messages mentioned or quoted anywhere.
> 
> I think the tl;dr of both these postings could be: "Whenever you give
> someone a map by remote mapping, you also take something away from them."
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 

-- 
Twitter: http://twitter.com/ravilacoya



Por favor, non me envíe documento

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Johan C]

2015-06-15 20:22 GMT+02:00 Rafael Avila Coya :

> Hi all:
>
> I have read all the emails of this thread, and found some of the views
> about remote/local mapping as well as imports quite interesting. Anyway,
> I have to say that, although this conversation can lead to some people
> to enrich/modify their views about this subject, it won't lead to real
> changes on the OSM mapping rules. It is amusing for me thinking on the
> OSM community deciding to restrict the remote mapping or banning imports
> in any way whatsoever. It would be a seriously destructive move, and I
> would strongly oppose any such moves.
>
>
Except for rules the DWG applies on bad edits I'm not aware of a decision
making process within OSM which can restrict remote mapping or banning
imports. So this thread will not lead to a decision, unless Frederik wants
to change the rules the DWG applies.

Cheers, Johan
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Simon Poole]

Kate

I could go in to great lengths to define what the core mappers are,
perhaps the 5% that provide 95% of the data or the 10'000 that could
easily map the equivalent of a MM-mapping party on their own in an
afternoon and so on.

But that is not the point, Robert was claiming that the remote part of
MM was designed to address 'the Western "core" of OSM contributors'. His
words, not mine, and clearly, from the first events on, that was not the
case, regardless of definition.

Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be. I'm
sure it is a big boon for the involved organisations in any case.

Everybody can do more or less do what they please in OSM which naturally
includes MM, but just so I don't have to like everything and I do
reserve myself the right to call a spade a spade.

To end on a positive note: the team from HOT working on the activations
in the wake of the Nepal earthquake had to come to grips with the
reality that using disasters as a newbie recruiting events is perhaps
not such a good idea and after a considerable number of issues labelled
a lot of the tasks explicitly for experienced mappers which is likely
the way it should be.

Simon


Am 15.06.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Kate Chapman:
> Simon,
> 
> Can you explain to me who the "core OSM" contributors are? 
> 
> Is the issue that people doubt the usefulness of the remotely mapped
> data? That we don't really believe in our own success?
> 
> -Kate
> 
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Simon Poole  > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11 schrieb Robert Banick:
> ...
> >
> > Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the project
> > and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM contributors, not
> > to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and perhaps
> > contribute to the project. As a result the remote component has gotten
> > an outsized amount of attention within the greater OSM community even
> > though it’s only half of the story.
> ...
> 
> 
> I had a long diatribe here as a response that I thought better of, but I
> really did want to point out that the remote part of missing maps has
> never addressed the core OSM contributors at all. I don't think, even
> with giving everybody a lot of slack, that it can be seen as anything
> else than a marketing activity of the involved organisations in which
> the net result is not of any real concern. And I don't think shifting
> the blame for the above to the journalists is in any way fair.
> 
> 
> Simon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi, Eros:

Yes, this was another subject that arose during this conversation. And I
agree totally with what you say.

I have been always interested/worried about the low numbers of women
involved in free software/free knowledge projects. The situation in OSM
is far from being healthy in what respects to genre equality, and there
have been several talks about this issue in some of the SOTM's. I've
been teaching for many years in secondary schools, so I can assure you
that girls aren't less interested in computing than boys, and in the
several activities I did with OSM, girls numbers were actually bigger
than boys. Believe me: I didn't see any difference in students, as far
as you take inclusive measures to avoid discrimination of any kind.

Apart from the links given by Kate, I can recall a very interesting
keynote of Alyssa Wright about this subject in the SOTM 2013 [1] (only
slides).

Cheers,

Rafael.

[1]
http://web.archive.org/web/20150328164447/http://www.slideshare.net/apw217/changing-the-ratio

On 15/06/15 20:11, Eros, Emily wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> In the midst of the discussion about remote mapping, I couldn¹t help but
> notice this comment from Sarah:
> 
> "In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman
> but simply that it is not
> interesting enough for them."
> 
> I was surprised to see this and I have to say that I disagree. I find it
> hard to believe that half the population isn¹t interested in mapping just
> because they are female; the active engagement of so many women in the OSM
> community certainly suggests otherwise.
> 
> Maybe I am misreading the intent of that comment? If so, please disregard.
> If not, and I¹m reading this correctly, then may I suggest looking deeper
> to see if there are other factors (beyond pure lack of interest)
> preventing the women you know from taking an interest in OSM? Maybe
> there¹s a different engagement strategy you could consider?
> 
> #InterestedEnoughToMap,
> Emily
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: Sarah Hoffmann 
>> To: Kate Chapman 
>> Cc: Talk Openstreetmap 
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
>> Message-ID: <20150614083150.ga20...@denofr.de>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>>
>>> Diversity to me has never just been gender. Though it has been shown
>>> that
>>> if you make a place welcoming to women it also makes it more inviting
>>> for
>>> other underrepresented groups. Intersectional feminism is about equality
>>> for everyone.
>>
>> This argument still has a sour taste to me. In my experience, the issue
>> is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman but simply that it is not
>> interesting enough for them. The outcome is the same but the actions to
>> take are vastly different. I do agree with you though, that finding
>> a solution to attract more woman will also show a way to attract other
>> underrepresented groups. After all, it is exactly the same argument as
>> above: the interests of the map makers and the potential map users
>> don't match.
>>
>>
>> Sarah
> 
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 

-- 
Twitter: http://twitter.com/ravilacoya



Por favor, non me envíe documentos con extensións .doc, .docx, .xls,
.xlsx, .ppt, .pptx, aínda podendoo facer,  non os abro.

Atendendo á lexislación vixente, empregue formatos estándares e abertos.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Tipos_de_ficheros

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[john whelan]

>" Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be."

I tend to validate in HOT more than map these days and one comment I'd make
is I've seen new mappers come into Nepal and later transfer into other HOT
projects, their mapping skills are improving as well.  Once they get going
with JOSM their productivity tends to go up so they're getting close to the
5% core.  Quite a number of projects have benefited from the Nepal newbies
and whilst they might be new to OSM at least two are better than I at
picking out details or knowing what to look for.  I think one comment was
its much the same as their normal work when they were looking at the
flooding in the UK.

Perhaps we need something like the HOT validation system in OSM more
generally but I don't know how it would work.  Locally OSM mappers have
used a rich range of tags, I'd say about 25% other than highways didn't get
rendered for one reason or another when they were initially tagged.

Cheerio John



On 15 June 2015 at 15:39, Simon Poole  wrote:

>
> Kate
>
> I could go in to great lengths to define what the core mappers are,
> perhaps the 5% that provide 95% of the data or the 10'000 that could
> easily map the equivalent of a MM-mapping party on their own in an
> afternoon and so on.
>
> But that is not the point, Robert was claiming that the remote part of
> MM was designed to address 'the Western "core" of OSM contributors'. His
> words, not mine, and clearly, from the first events on, that was not the
> case, regardless of definition.
>
> Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
> much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
> coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
> the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be. I'm
> sure it is a big boon for the involved organisations in any case.
>
> Everybody can do more or less do what they please in OSM which naturally
> includes MM, but just so I don't have to like everything and I do
> reserve myself the right to call a spade a spade.
>
> To end on a positive note: the team from HOT working on the activations
> in the wake of the Nepal earthquake had to come to grips with the
> reality that using disasters as a newbie recruiting events is perhaps
> not such a good idea and after a considerable number of issues labelled
> a lot of the tasks explicitly for experienced mappers which is likely
> the way it should be.
>
> Simon
>
>
> Am 15.06.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Kate Chapman:
> > Simon,
> >
> > Can you explain to me who the "core OSM" contributors are?
> >
> > Is the issue that people doubt the usefulness of the remotely mapped
> > data? That we don't really believe in our own success?
> >
> > -Kate
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Simon Poole  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11 schrieb Robert Banick:
> > ...
> > >
> > > Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the
> project
> > > and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM
> contributors, not
> > > to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and
> perhaps
> > > contribute to the project. As a result the remote component has
> gotten
> > > an outsized amount of attention within the greater OSM community
> even
> > > though it’s only half of the story.
> > ...
> >
> >
> > I had a long diatribe here as a response that I thought better of,
> but I
> > really did want to point out that the remote part of missing maps has
> > never addressed the core OSM contributors at all. I don't think, even
> > with giving everybody a lot of slack, that it can be seen as anything
> > else than a marketing activity of the involved organisations in which
> > the net result is not of any real concern. And I don't think shifting
> > the blame for the above to the journalists is in any way fair.
> >
> >
> > Simon
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Arun Ganesh]

> Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
could improve things.

The very simple answer is that most people who know English and can afford
a smartphone already use Google maps which work reasonably well in India.
OSM is atleast 10 years behind in coverage and there is just a handful like
me who have the luxury of free time who can see the long term benefits of
contributing to open source. To the rest, they already have working maps,
so why bother.

What is changing the scenario is some popular classified services switching
to OSM, but they do this at a big risk, because the data is really poor.
Another is the recent open source policy approved by the government which
makes gives localized open source software the preference in new
e-governance applications. Also the education system is looking at mapping
as an activity for learning about computers and the environment.

Change is happening, but its going to take a few years till there is
visible traction in community growth.

-- 
(planemad) 
 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Pierre Béland]

Hi Simon
There are projects that can contribute in various ways to the development of 
OpenStreetMap.  Any of these add a piece and contribute to make a complete, 
accurate map.
Imports are important to provide structured informations like boundaries, place 
names, etc. Surely not something to neglect. The same with the remote mapping.  
This help cover large areas, adding roads and buildings. But this does not 
either make a complete map. This is what I call the black and white map.
And yes local knowledge is adding color to the map. This is essential to 
develop better maps.  But should we accept statements saying that this is 
colonialism, western views to contribute to map in development countries?
This is not my perception coordinating over the last years to the various OSM 
responses including Hayian/Philippines, Ebola, Nepal and many others. At the 
same time, some of us have developped expertise and are supporting the local 
communities. We are a global community exchanging through internet and it is 
important to develop the thrust, to learn how to work together.
With the humanitarian responses, we have the opportunity to work together and 
develop this thrust and learn how to work together. I was pleased to see for 
the Nepal Earthquake response that I could co-lead with the Kathmandu Living 
Labs folks. They where working in quite difficult context and surely needed 
help. We have organized rapidly various working groups to deal with imagery, 
imports, validations, etc. plus interfacing with the international community. 
Manning Sambale from Philippines has also given back after we helped his 
community for the Hayian cyclone in 2013. Our colleagues from Africa, India, 
south America and surely elsewhere also contributed organizing various 
mapathons. 

As you pointed out,  we had to adjust for the Nepal response to the massive 
contribution of new contributors in a few weeks.  We have never seen that. 
There was more then 7,000 contributors and 17 million objects in 7 weeks. This 
is more then for the West Africa Ebola over a year. The first week, there was 
an average of 1,000 contributors a day.

This is the ransom of success for OSM,  being exposed to the medias, the 
international organizations recognizing our significant contribution to such 
humanitarian responses.
The answer to this is global. We should surely not let each community alone. 
The global OSM community needs to offer expertise to the national communities, 
to support them, help them manage for their contry adding significant 
informations to the map. 
Crowdsourcing is an OpenStreetMap reality.  There is not only the mapathons. 
Anybody can open an account and contribute, whatever are there skills. We like 
to say that we have more then 2 million contributors. But yes, a lot contribute 
only once. How can we assure that their experience will be fun and that they 
will come for a second day? 

Operations like for Nepal help see where we should improve collectively to 
produce better maps. The Tasking manager offers ways to coordinate the remote 
mapping. But we realize that we need to adapt it to the less experienced 
contributors. Reserving tasks for more experienced contributors for Nepal was 
not enough since any new contributor can select these tasks anyway. We are 
looking at ways to improve that, to assure that new contributors are better 
oriented to adapted learning material and easier tasks.
We could also pursue this reflexion with our Editors. Are they sufficiently 
adapted, the learning material easily accessible and adapted for the first 
contributors, the presets simplified, all of this assuring the new contributors 
will come back a second day? And this either for remote mapping or local 
mapping! 

regard 
Pierre 

  De : Simon Poole 
 À : Kate Chapman  
Cc : osm  
 Envoyé le : Lundi 15 juin 2015 15h39
 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping
   

Kate

I could go in to great lengths to define what the core mappers are,
perhaps the 5% that provide 95% of the data or the 10'000 that could
easily map the equivalent of a MM-mapping party on their own in an
afternoon and so on.

But that is not the point, Robert was claiming that the remote part of
MM was designed to address 'the Western "core" of OSM contributors'. His
words, not mine, and clearly, from the first events on, that was not the
case, regardless of definition.

Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be. I'm
sure it is a big boon for the involved organisations in any case.

Everybody can do more or less do what they please in OSM which naturally
includes MM, but just so I don't have to like everything and I do
reserve myself the right to call a spade a spade.

To end on a positive note: the team fro

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Kate Chapman]

I'm unsure if we have a good way to compare, but most people introduced to
OSM generally don't stick with it. Are the Missing Maps attrition rates any
different than people who find out about OSM in other ways?

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> >" Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
> much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
> coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
> the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be."
>
> I tend to validate in HOT more than map these days and one comment I'd
> make is I've seen new mappers come into Nepal and later transfer into other
> HOT projects, their mapping skills are improving as well.  Once they get
> going with JOSM their productivity tends to go up so they're getting close
> to the 5% core.  Quite a number of projects have benefited from the Nepal
> newbies and whilst they might be new to OSM at least two are better than I
> at picking out details or knowing what to look for.  I think one comment
> was its much the same as their normal work when they were looking at the
> flooding in the UK.
>
> Perhaps we need something like the HOT validation system in OSM more
> generally but I don't know how it would work.  Locally OSM mappers have
> used a rich range of tags, I'd say about 25% other than highways didn't get
> rendered for one reason or another when they were initially tagged.
>
> Cheerio John
>
>
>
> On 15 June 2015 at 15:39, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>>
>> Kate
>>
>> I could go in to great lengths to define what the core mappers are,
>> perhaps the 5% that provide 95% of the data or the 10'000 that could
>> easily map the equivalent of a MM-mapping party on their own in an
>> afternoon and so on.
>>
>> But that is not the point, Robert was claiming that the remote part of
>> MM was designed to address 'the Western "core" of OSM contributors'. His
>> words, not mine, and clearly, from the first events on, that was not the
>> case, regardless of definition.
>>
>> Everything is geared towards churning through newbies and generating as
>> much as possible media coverage, not fast, efficient and quality
>> coverage of the areas in question. It may have not been intended so from
>> the very start, but that is definitely what it has turned out to be. I'm
>> sure it is a big boon for the involved organisations in any case.
>>
>> Everybody can do more or less do what they please in OSM which naturally
>> includes MM, but just so I don't have to like everything and I do
>> reserve myself the right to call a spade a spade.
>>
>> To end on a positive note: the team from HOT working on the activations
>> in the wake of the Nepal earthquake had to come to grips with the
>> reality that using disasters as a newbie recruiting events is perhaps
>> not such a good idea and after a considerable number of issues labelled
>> a lot of the tasks explicitly for experienced mappers which is likely
>> the way it should be.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>>
>> Am 15.06.2015 um 17:33 schrieb Kate Chapman:
>> > Simon,
>> >
>> > Can you explain to me who the "core OSM" contributors are?
>> >
>> > Is the issue that people doubt the usefulness of the remotely mapped
>> > data? That we don't really believe in our own success?
>> >
>> > -Kate
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 12:20 AM, Simon Poole > > > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 15.06.2015 um 04:11 schrieb Robert Banick:
>> > ...
>> > >
>> > > Remote mapping was easier to set up in the early phases of the
>> project
>> > > and much more accessible to the Western “core” of OSM
>> contributors, not
>> > > to mention sympathetic journalists, who wanted to check out and
>> perhaps
>> > > contribute to the project. As a result the remote component has
>> gotten
>> > > an outsized amount of attention within the greater OSM community
>> even
>> > > though it’s only half of the story.
>> > ...
>> >
>> >
>> > I had a long diatribe here as a response that I thought better of,
>> but I
>> > really did want to point out that the remote part of missing maps
>> has
>> > never addressed the core OSM contributors at all. I don't think,
>> even
>> > with giving everybody a lot of slack, that it can be seen as
>> anything
>> > else than a marketing activity of the involved organisations in
>> which
>> > the net result is not of any real concern. And I don't think
>> shifting
>> > the blame for the above to the journalists is in any way fair.
>> >
>> >
>> > Simon
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ___
>> > talk mailing list
>> > talk@openstreetmap.org 
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Simon Poole]

Am 15.06.2015 um 22:18 schrieb Arun Ganesh:
>> Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
> community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
> could improve things. 
> 
> The very simple answer is that most people who know English and can
> afford a smartphone already use Google maps which work reasonably well
> in India. OSM is atleast 10 years behind in coverage and there is just a
> handful like me who have the luxury of free time who can see the long
> term benefits of contributing to open source. To the rest, they already
> have working maps, so why bother.
> 
...

I would just want to point out that that the last point is not vastly
different in Western Europe and a lot of other regions.

I suspect the key to success is to find the itch that OSM can scratch
that currently isn't well served by google or other map providers. In
Europe early on (and still) it was cyclists. In full realisation that
the economic constraints are very different and this is a very cultural
dependent thing. What worked for region X is unlikely to work for Y.

...
> 
> Change is happening, but its going to take a few years till there is
> visible traction in community growth.
> 

I see no problem with that, I liken OSM to the tortoise in the fable.*

Simon

* I have at other times shown https://youtu.be/TdUsyXQ8Wrs as a
introduction particularly when competition has been present :-).




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 15/06/2015, Arun Ganesh  wrote:
>> Not at all. I'm asking a contributor who feels that his local
>> community is not very strong if there's anything specific he thinks
>> could improve things.
>
> The very simple answer is that most people who know English and can afford
> a smartphone already use Google maps which work reasonably well in India.
> OSM is atleast 10 years behind in coverage and there is just a handful like
> me who have the luxury of free time who can see the long term benefits of
> contributing to open source. To the rest, they already have working maps,
> so why bother.

Fair enough. Although a quick mapcompare session shows that GM has
nowhere near the quality that it has in Europe/America, so it should
be less work for OSM to overtake GM in India than it took in Europe (I
know, if the community is tiny, "less overall work" is still way more
work for each individual).

You point out an interesting bit of information though: GM is for
English speakers. Do you render a Hindi (and other languages)
slippymap ? Provide Hindi OSMand and Garmin maps ? That might catch
the attention of many users. In Ireland we have an all-Gaelic map
(http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=9&layers=00BFF&lat=52.92847&lon=-7.65252)
that attracts people from outside OSM.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Sarah Hoffmann]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 06:11:50PM +, Eros, Emily wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> In the midst of the discussion about remote mapping, I couldn¹t help but
> notice this comment from Sarah:
> 
> "In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman
> but simply that it is not
> interesting enough for them."
> 
> I was surprised to see this and I have to say that I disagree. I find it
> hard to believe that half the population isn¹t interested in mapping just
> because they are female; the active engagement of so many women in the OSM
> community certainly suggests otherwise.

This is naturally slippery ground and involves more guessing than solid
research but let me try to explain a bit more what I meant.

The people who drove OSM in the early stages of development were almost
exclusively people who mapped for the sake of creating a map. The actual
use of the data was secondary. The satisfaction of showing that it can
be done was enough. In fact, the core of OSM contributors (the ones Simon
was eluding to) is still made up of this group. Without wanting to
speculate what the reasons are, numbers suggest that this kind of
motivation mainly appeals to men. Women think differently. They seem more
interested that the outcome of their labour is put to good use. The
vast majority of woman in OSM that I know is contributing for a very
specific purpose: they are professionals in GIS, humanitarian workers,
researchers or involved in a community project that requires maps.
Note that it doesn't mean that other women are less skilled or capable.
It is a simple question on where you invest your time and energy and
for a majority of woman, creating a map just to have something pretty
to look at at the screen does not seem sufficient. That's what I meant
with lack of interest. 

As it happens, HOT is a good example on how to do it right in that sense.
Humanitarian mapping has a very clear goal and the perceived outcome of
helping other people is obviously worth the time of more women than
completely mapping a neighbourhood. 

A volunteer projects stands and falls with the motivation of its members.
We've successfully tapped into the source of people that is motivated by data
contribution. To create diversity, it's worth to look more into the source of
people motivated by data use. The tried and true way to do that is
creating and promoting products for these people.

openchildcaremap.org, any takers?

Kind regards

Sarah

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Clifford Snow]

Following this thread makes me wonder how people feel about some of the
issues raised. The link below is quick survey about some of the issues
raised in the thread. Please take a minute or two to respond. If I get
sufficient answers I will publish the results.

https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/TRQYHFP

Clifford


On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Sarah Hoffmann  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 06:11:50PM +, Eros, Emily wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > In the midst of the discussion about remote mapping, I couldn¹t help but
> > notice this comment from Sarah:
> >
> > "In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman
> > but simply that it is not
> > interesting enough for them."
> >
> > I was surprised to see this and I have to say that I disagree. I find it
> > hard to believe that half the population isn¹t interested in mapping just
> > because they are female; the active engagement of so many women in the
> OSM
> > community certainly suggests otherwise.
>
> This is naturally slippery ground and involves more guessing than solid
> research but let me try to explain a bit more what I meant.
>
> The people who drove OSM in the early stages of development were almost
> exclusively people who mapped for the sake of creating a map. The actual
> use of the data was secondary. The satisfaction of showing that it can
> be done was enough. In fact, the core of OSM contributors (the ones Simon
> was eluding to) is still made up of this group. Without wanting to
> speculate what the reasons are, numbers suggest that this kind of
> motivation mainly appeals to men. Women think differently. They seem more
> interested that the outcome of their labour is put to good use. The
> vast majority of woman in OSM that I know is contributing for a very
> specific purpose: they are professionals in GIS, humanitarian workers,
> researchers or involved in a community project that requires maps.
> Note that it doesn't mean that other women are less skilled or capable.
> It is a simple question on where you invest your time and energy and
> for a majority of woman, creating a map just to have something pretty
> to look at at the screen does not seem sufficient. That's what I meant
> with lack of interest.
>
> As it happens, HOT is a good example on how to do it right in that sense.
> Humanitarian mapping has a very clear goal and the perceived outcome of
> helping other people is obviously worth the time of more women than
> completely mapping a neighbourhood.
>
> A volunteer projects stands and falls with the motivation of its members.
> We've successfully tapped into the source of people that is motivated by
> data
> contribution. To create diversity, it's worth to look more into the source
> of
> people motivated by data use. The tried and true way to do that is
> creating and promoting products for these people.
>
> openchildcaremap.org, any takers?
>
> Kind regards
>
> Sarah
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM in India

[Arun Ganesh]

> Fair enough. Although a quick mapcompare session shows that GM has
> nowhere near the quality that it has in Europe/America, so it should
> be less work for OSM to overtake GM in India than it took in Europe (I
> know, if the community is tiny, "less overall work" is still way more
> work for each individual).
>
Businesses throughout the country want to list themselves on GM to get more
customers. I have been to remote parts of the country where hoteliers or
shop owners ask me how they can be listed. This POI database is massive and
along with it comes address information which is data gold in India for
geocoding. There is low business incentive for anyone to list themselves on
OSM, moreover the computer skills to do that is lacking by most people. If
there were more users of openstreetmap, this can change quickly.


> You point out an interesting bit of information though: GM is for
> English speakers. Do you render a Hindi (and other languages)
> slippymap ? Provide Hindi OSMand and Garmin maps ? That might catch
> the attention of many users. In Ireland we have an all-Gaelic map
> (
> http://maps.openstreetmap.ie/?zoom=9&layers=00BFF&lat=52.92847&lon=-7.65252
> )
> that attracts people from outside OSM.
>

Its a given that most users of new technology in the country are familiar
with English, or atleast the Latin alphabet. One may not be able to speak
the language but can easily read street signs and it is more familiar than
localized signage. We have had trials with localized maps
http://yogiks.github.io/osm-kn/map/ but apart from being good PR they have
limited practical use in daily life.

We would need to support 22 languages and in offline mediums to make the
maps truly accessible to most of the people. Till then maps will continue
to be used only by a small class of the population..


-- 
 Arun Ganesh
(planemad) 
 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Some thoughts against remote mapping

[Andrew Wiseman]

Interesting thread! And I'm glad it's civil.

I think everybody agrees that local mappers are best. But that's obviously
easier said than done. Like Robert said, it requires outreach and some big
efforts to find and empower those local mappers, as many people would never
have seen or thought to use OpenStreetMap for many reasons: maybe it's
technology or free time or knowledge about geography or something else that
I don't even know about. And maybe they just don't want to, which is
perfectly fine, but I think showing people it exists and what is possible
is a worthwhile effort. If you don't know something exists you're not going
to be interested in it.

There are a lot of good efforts already doing that: HOT of course in many
places, the American Red Cross does a lot with local Red Crosses in other
countries, Missing Maps, the project USAID is doing with a university in
Bangladesh, and lots of local communities doing their own projects and
finding members and doing more. (Full disclosure, my office at USAID also
funded HOT to build two OSM groups in Haiti, but I am talking as a guy who
loves OSM.)

When I was visiting one of those projects in Haiti I found that the tourist
map at a local hotel was basically a print-out of the city in OSM. That's
great, and an example of local people using OSM for their own goals (in
this case for marketing to tourists, which could be its own discussion, but
still it's a locally-generated use.) And I bet there are many more people
who would love to use OSM if only they knew about it.

It's certainly not an easy problem to crack, but to me there are many ways
to start -- technological solutions, training materials in local languages,
and so on. And a lot of those are being worked on now. And like Robert
said, they require people, not just to map -- people to teach, people to
write, people to talk, people to organize, and so on.

(And I do not agree that Missing Maps is a marketing ploy. You are free to
start your own effort.)

Kathmandu Living Labs is a great example of a local group leading the way
and serving as a hub -- but they were organized through the Open Cities
Project for this purpose.[1] To me that is not a bad thing, or colonialism,
or whatever -- a good development project helps local people do something
they want to do or find useful that they might not have had the money, time
or skillset to do before, and KLL is obviously very successful now. (And
psst, they could use some donations. [2]) That's not to say that everybody
should go around setting up KLLs, but assistance from afar is not a bad
thing per se.

Something else semi-related that might be a terrible idea: I wonder if
there ought to be some way to show which edits are by remote mappers and by
locals? Could you do this automatically via IP address or something by
seeing who was nearby and who was not? I do a fair amount of remote mapping
but tend not to fix existing things that appear to me to be wrong because
maybe a local person added it -- I assume they know better than me, the guy
looking at Bing from thousands of miles away. But if I could tell that edit
was also by a remote mapper, I would be more likely to fix it or send them
a message about it. I know you can do some research by looking at the
user's profile and the How Do You Contribute tools,[3] but that takes some
time and can be inconclusive. That's not to say there should be tiers of
edits, but maybe some more metadata about the edits would be helpful,
especially since people are not very diligent about changeset comments or
other such things. Just a thought.

Thanks,

Andrew

[1] http://www.opencitiesproject.org/cities/kathmandu/
[2] http://kathmandulivinglabs.org/
[3] http://hdyc.neis-one.org/

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> Following this thread makes me wonder how people feel about some of the
> issues raised. The link below is quick survey about some of the issues
> raised in the thread. Please take a minute or two to respond. If I get
> sufficient answers I will publish the results.
>
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/TRQYHFP
>
> Clifford
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Sarah Hoffmann  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 06:11:50PM +, Eros, Emily wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > In the midst of the discussion about remote mapping, I couldn¹t help but
>> > notice this comment from Sarah:
>> >
>> > "In my experience, the issue is not that OSM is not welcoming for woman
>> > but simply that it is not
>> > interesting enough for them."
>> >
>> > I was surprised to see this and I have to say that I disagree. I find it
>> > hard to believe that half the population isn¹t interested in mapping
>> just
>> > because they are female; the active engagement of so many women in the
>> OSM
>> > community certainly suggests otherwise.
>>
>> This is naturally slippery ground and involves more guessing than solid
>> research but let me try to explain a bit more what I meant.
>>
>> The people who drove OSM in the earl