[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Awards 2019 Call for Nominees is open!

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi folks,

'Tis that time of the year: only a week until SotM Call for Papers 
closes, and time to think not only of your talk, but to remember 
everybody who has inspired you over the past year. We are preparing the 
next installment of the OSM Awards: please help us collect a long list 
of people worth honouring.


http://awards.osmz.ru

As always, please sumbit people and projects you have noticed to the 
website. Do not choose between who to mention and who isn't "worthy": 
this is a call for a long list, which will be shortened later by a 
closed voting. You can nominate yourself. You can nominate a friend. 
Please do. The only limitation is that the person or a project must have 
done something public after the 1st of June 2018. Basically, in the past 
year. A link would be great.


This year, there are some changes:

* Gone are the three regional categories. Sorry. On the other hand, I'm 
happy to notice people from less represented countries being very active 
in the community, and receiving awards in the general categories.


* Now only people are accepted to the six main categories. One or a 
pair, real names or OSM nicknames: not teams and not companies. Please 
google authors of the software you'd like to nominate (though if you 
insist, we can do it ourselves).


* Teams, groups and companies go to a separate category: Team 
Archievement Award. SotM organizing teams, Esri and like, JOSM 
developers and groups like that, all go here. If you want to nominate a 
single leader or a developer, consider other categories. If you want to 
nominate a vague group of people who did something great, this is the 
category.


The call for nominees ends in July. Which does not mean you can postpone 
and eventually forget about the call. Please read the next WeeklyOSM 
with the idea of nominating people in mind. Look at tools you use and 
blogs you read. While saying thanks to a neighbouring mapper, consider 
nominating them. By doing that, you validate their efforts and make 
their year a little brighter. We all need that.


Please nominate: http://awards.osmz.ru

And if you have time, please contribute to the website translations:

https://www.transifex.com/openstreetmap/osm-awards/dashboard/


Ilya

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Re: [OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Dear Roland,

I understood well the idea about an external tool and its availability 
in the long run. It makes good sense. I would like just to mention that 
Wikipedia articles change their titles at the drop of a hat.


Wikidata items also change sometimes, but I have never encountered it 
personally. Wikidata items' titles seems to be more stable than 
Wikipedia articles' titles. Wikipedia articles are basically just HTML 
pages for reading by humans.


One more consideration, - it is possible to create a Wikipedia article 
only of a notable object, i.e. if there are several published articles 
or books about it. It is easier to create a Wikidata item (or Wikimedia 
category), than a Wikipedia article.


I mentioned already in this discussion that I could well create the 
Wikidata item (and Wikimedia category) for the historic Yellow Quarry 
(fr. Carrière Jaune) https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62083763 , but I 
still cannot create the Wikipedia article, because I cannot find so far 
any reliable article-worthy sources.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 4/18/19 22:02, Roland Olbricht wrote:

Dear Andy,

I would like to use a metaphor:

If I had known that the captain of the Titanic considered the ship
unsinkable then I had not boarded the ship.
Not so much because I had been interested in the captain's belief but
because believing to be unsinkable is way too little for a contingency 
plan.


The contingency plan for OpenStreetMap is that everyone can still edit
the map even if the main database were the only website of the world
that is still available. This works well with a "wikipedia" tag: An
average person can, from the wording of the page title, still predict
whether an object in question qualifies for that tag or not, without the
article available at all.

This does not work with a wikidata tag.
Without the Wikidata server up and availble the tag is a random number 
only.


I'm not talking about who has the most reliable server here.
In practice the things that happen (and all actually have happened in
one form or another):
- A provider blocks the IP address block of a particular site because of
a policy on an adjacent IP address
- HTTPS is used and the browser or the client's library does not trust
the certificate or has a conflicting policy
- A misconfigured carrier grade NAT makes the address inaccessible
- Wikipedia or other services distinct from openstreetmap.org go on 
strike

- a site starts to apply or substantially reduces quotas

I do not presume the Wikidata servers had failed or to do in the
forseeable future. Serious issues always come from an unexpected
direction. The engineers of the Titanic have taken precaution for many
many things and probably simply never thought about icebergs, or not
hard enough. So please do not try to discuss the issues away.

It is nowadays an engenering virtue to decouple things enough to keep
each of the parts as simple as possible. That has saved both many lifes
as well as trillions of dollars.

That said, the free-form tagging paradigm means that it may or may not
been acceptable to add tags in addition to tags understandable without
the help of any external tool.  However, it is destructive to replace
tags understandable without any external tools with tags that require
external tools, i.e. to remove wikipedia tags in favour of wikidata tags.

Best regards,

Roland


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Re: [OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Roland Olbricht]

Dear Andy,

I would like to use a metaphor:

If I had known that the captain of the Titanic considered the ship
unsinkable then I had not boarded the ship.
Not so much because I had been interested in the captain's belief but
because believing to be unsinkable is way too little for a contingency plan.

The contingency plan for OpenStreetMap is that everyone can still edit
the map even if the main database were the only website of the world
that is still available. This works well with a "wikipedia" tag: An
average person can, from the wording of the page title, still predict
whether an object in question qualifies for that tag or not, without the
article available at all.

This does not work with a wikidata tag.
Without the Wikidata server up and availble the tag is a random number only.

I'm not talking about who has the most reliable server here.
In practice the things that happen (and all actually have happened in
one form or another):
- A provider blocks the IP address block of a particular site because of
a policy on an adjacent IP address
- HTTPS is used and the browser or the client's library does not trust
the certificate or has a conflicting policy
- A misconfigured carrier grade NAT makes the address inaccessible
- Wikipedia or other services distinct from openstreetmap.org go on strike
- a site starts to apply or substantially reduces quotas

I do not presume the Wikidata servers had failed or to do in the
forseeable future. Serious issues always come from an unexpected
direction. The engineers of the Titanic have taken precaution for many
many things and probably simply never thought about icebergs, or not
hard enough. So please do not try to discuss the issues away.

It is nowadays an engenering virtue to decouple things enough to keep
each of the parts as simple as possible. That has saved both many lifes
as well as trillions of dollars.

That said, the free-form tagging paradigm means that it may or may not
been acceptable to add tags in addition to tags understandable without
the help of any external tool.  However, it is destructive to replace
tags understandable without any external tools with tags that require
external tools, i.e. to remove wikipedia tags in favour of wikidata tags.

Best regards,

Roland


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[OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 14:06, Oleksiy Muzalyev
 wrote:

> I created the Wikidata item (and the Commons category) for
> the medieval quarry Carrière Jaune (eng. Yellow Quarry):
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/158798757
> https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62083763

> Via this Wikidata link people can view the ground and aerial photos of
> this absolutely magnificent medieval quarry and even read the basic
> historical information on the photo of the information board.

In time, they will also be able to call up a list of buildings,
bridges, statues and other objects made using stone from the quarry;
and any artworks depicting them or the quarry itself.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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[OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 09:28, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> The general mindset of the Wikidata adherent is

At what point did we appoint you our spokesman?

> that every
> machine-readable link between obejcts or concepts improves the overall
> quality and usefulness of the data set, whether or not a concrete use
> case exists at this point in time or not.

There is always a concrete use case.

> However, the ferocity and scope with which Wikidata links are forced on
> us

"forced"?

> are a concern for me.

> We end up with tons of extra tags that add zero
> extra information and complicate the world for mappers.

There are zero Wikidata tags that add zero information

> And I'm not even talking about our own wiki where they've started to
> wikidatify our tags as well.

That's no more true than saying wiki.openstreetmap.org is "Wikipediafied".

You're confusing the use of Wikibase software with Wikidata.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] uselessness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Hi,

I agree that adding tons of links with a script is not a good idea. 
However, there are cases where a wikidata tag could be useful.


For example, I created the Wikidata item (and the Commons category) for 
the medieval quarry Carrière Jaune (eng. Yellow Quarry):


https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/158798757
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q62083763

This quarry had been in operation for five hundred years, it provided 
about 25000 cubic meters of stones for quite a few famous castles and 
buildings in the region, but now it is completely abandoned. It is 
situated deep in the forest. As far as I know there were no excavations 
there yet, and there is no Wikipedia article either, since there are few 
sources so far.


Via this Wikidata link people can view the ground and aerial photos of 
this absolutely magnificent medieval quarry and even read the basic 
historical information on the photo of the information board. I had to 
actually walk for hours to this quarry to make the photos. I also spent 
several hours for the research.


The idea is that people could not only see an object on the map, but 
also to get an information about it, including images, and most 
importantly an idea to go and visit the place.


Best regards,
O.

On 4/18/19 11:28, Frederik Ramm wrote:

Hi,

On 17.04.19 23:40, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

I am not aware about even single case where brand:wikipedia
or brand:wikidata is useful.

The general mindset of the Wikidata adherent is that every
machine-readable link between obejcts or concepts improves the overall
quality and usefulness of the data set, whether or not a concrete use
case exists at this point in time or not.

Mapping things without a concrete use case is fairly common in OSM; you
don't generally have to demonstrate a use case before you can start
mapping something.

However, the ferocity and scope with which Wikidata links are forced on
us are a concern for me. It started with tons of undiscussed mechanical
edits that resulted in low-quality connections like the one that gave
rise to this discussion, and has meanwhile found its way into our
editors which happily add wikidata tags according to the same flawed
logic, making the individual mapper complicit without them really
knowing what goes on. We end up with tons of extra tags that add zero
extra information and complicate the world for mappers.

And I'm not even talking about our own wiki where they've started to
wikidatify our tags as well.

I'm realistic enough to accept that wikidata links are here to stay, but
we have to rein in the "the more the merrier" thinking with regards to
wikidata.

Bye
Frederik




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Re: [OSM-talk] Stolpersteine - single monument or a monument type? (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Andy Mabbett]

On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 07:48, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:


>>> "wikipedia='de:Stolpersteine'",

> I considered Stolpersteine as a monument type, not a single distributed 
> monument.

> I would certainly consult German community before starting some sort of an 
> automatic
> removal process

Stolpersteine - like the Nazi atrocities whose victims they
commemorate - are not only in Germany; nor indeed not only in
German-speaking countries.

> (with sole exception of possible reverting of undiscussed mechanical edits).

We should draw a distinction between automated edits such as bulk
imports, and simple fixes, or 1:1 swaps like Wikipedia-> Wikidata

> en:Lunar Society Moonstones

The Lunar Society Moonstones are a single artwork comprising eight
objects around the perimeter of a single site (and very local to where
I live; I watched them being carved, talked with the artists, and
wrote and illustrated the Wikipedia article). And I first mapped them.
They should be in relation, which I shall do now.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] uselessness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 17.04.19 23:40, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> I am not aware about even single case where brand:wikipedia
> or brand:wikidata is useful.

The general mindset of the Wikidata adherent is that every
machine-readable link between obejcts or concepts improves the overall
quality and usefulness of the data set, whether or not a concrete use
case exists at this point in time or not.

Mapping things without a concrete use case is fairly common in OSM; you
don't generally have to demonstrate a use case before you can start
mapping something.

However, the ferocity and scope with which Wikidata links are forced on
us are a concern for me. It started with tons of undiscussed mechanical
edits that resulted in low-quality connections like the one that gave
rise to this discussion, and has meanwhile found its way into our
editors which happily add wikidata tags according to the same flawed
logic, making the individual mapper complicit without them really
knowing what goes on. We end up with tons of extra tags that add zero
extra information and complicate the world for mappers.

And I'm not even talking about our own wiki where they've started to
wikidatify our tags as well.

I'm realistic enough to accept that wikidata links are here to stay, but
we have to rein in the "the more the merrier" thinking with regards to
wikidata.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags

[Tobias Wrede]

Am 17.04.2019 um 22:03 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:

Among other popular wikipedia links

"wikipedia='de:Stolpersteine'",
"wikipedia='nl:Toeristisch Overstappunt'",

are also clearly invalid, though here brand:wikipedia would
be wrong and complete removal is probably necessary.


Martin already commented on de:Stolpersteine.

The adding of nl:Toeristisch Overstappunt has been questioned on the 
tagging list (starting with messages 
 and 
) but with no 
apparent outcome. I agree with you, in my opinion they are still dead wrong.


Tobias

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Re: [OSM-talk] uselessness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Can you link some of this real, actually used uses?

Or even better - add them to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand:wikidata 
 ?

At this moment https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand:wikidata 

has a single theoretical example that relies on people not blindly adding 
brand:wikidata 
tags based solely on matches of object type and name with popular 
shop/restaurant/fast food chain.


Apr 18, 2019, 6:03 AM by yuriastrak...@gmail.com:

> Interestingly enough, FOSS4G San Digeo where I was just attending has had 
> several talks about wikidata IDs usfulness in OSM...  Also, AFAIK, mapbox is 
> using WD in brands to do their searches for POIs, as that is much easier to 
> consume than names. OpenMapTiles have discussed wikidata ids at length, and 
> consumes it in order to translate many locations (see their import-wikidata 
> repo).
>
> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 2:42 PM Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Apr 17, 2019, 11:19 PM by >> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk 
>> >> :
>>
>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 21:03, Mateusz Konieczny <>>> 
>>> matkoni...@tutanota.com  wrote:
>>>
 Though, if we are lucky this mistake was added by an undiscussed
 automated edit and may be simply reverted.

>>>
>>> I do not consider the loss of potentially-useful data to be "lucky".
>>>
>> I am not aware about even single case where brand:wikipedia
>> or brand:wikidata is useful.
>>
>> Note that almost always this tags are added based on name tag.
>> ___
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>>  >> talk@openstreetmap.org 
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk 
>> 
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] usefulness of brand:wikipedia and brand:wikidata tags (was Re: Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags)

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 18, 2019, 12:05 AM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 22:40, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> Note that almost always this tags are added based on name tag.
>>
>
> Perhaps, but even then they can disambiguate outlets with the same
> name but different owners.
>
Not in cases of running fully automated edits that consider solely name tag and 
sometimes also shop type.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Bank of India (and other) Wikidata tags

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Apr 18, 2019, 12:02 AM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 22:38, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> Apr 17, 2019, 11:19 PM by >> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk 
>> >> :
>>
>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 21:03, Mateusz Konieczny <>> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>> [list of examples]
>>
>> It would seem reasonable to have a bot routinely convert those to
>> brand:wikipedia tags, with (say) a white-list for HQ objects.
>>
>> Also HQ should not be linked to Wikipedia article describing company.
>>
>
> That depends, surely, on whether the HQ is represented by tags on the
> building-object, or on a node within a building, which may be a
> building with shared occupancy.
>
Yes, building element can be linked to entry describing building
(not company).

office=* element separated from building may be linked to entry
describing this specific office (unlikely to have a Wikipedia article,
though one may probably create a Wikidata entry).

> And if one is adding, say, the company's URL to an object, it is
> logical to add the Wikidata ID to the same object.
>
AFAIK we use website tag for urls about given element
and url for any sort-of related link.

In office=* element I would consider website tag linking to a company
website as an incorrect.

>> We could also suggest that tools (JOSM, ID, etc) issue a warning when
>> such values are added, ether based on matching items in a list, for
>> retching the item's "insatnce of" value from Wikidata.
>>
>> I am not sure about is using "instance of" data from Wikidata limited by
>> copyright issues.
>>
>
> Wikidata data is PD/CC0, so that is not an issue. Even if it were,
> referring to something is not the same as copying it.
>
Wikidata is CC0 under US law. For example it includes location data from
Google Maps (via import of location data from Wikipedia).

In general, at this moment Wikidata ignores sui generis database rights.

This is not blocking claiming that their database is CC0 under US law,
but it is not true for example under EU law.

And editing OSM based on Wikidata data us not the same as referring to it
(though likely editing OpenStreetMap limited to changing wikidata/wikipedia
links based on Wikidata/Wikipedia is fine. After all one needs to know 
what is linked - anything else would make creating any pointers
to external databases illegal).

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