Re: [Talk-lv] footway/cycleway Liepājā

[Marat]

Čau!
Kā visur:
Highway=cycleway
Bicycle=designed
Foot=designed
Segregated=no
Un protams apvienot vienā

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020, 09:35 Rihards,  wrote:

> Liepājā gājēju celiņš un veloceliņš iezīmēti kā atsevišķi ways -
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/56.48903/20.99911 .
>
> Bet reāli tie fiziski nav atdalīti, un arī zīme ir segregated=no:
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/lxT5SpUqhO0gSIixYraupB
>
> Kādas domas, kā šo vislabāk būtu iezīmēt?
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[Talk-lv] footway/cycleway Liepājā

[Rihards]

Liepājā gājēju celiņš un veloceliņš iezīmēti kā atsevišķi ways -
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/56.48903/20.99911 .

Bet reāli tie fiziski nav atdalīti, un arī zīme ir segregated=no:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/lxT5SpUqhO0gSIixYraupB

Kādas domas, kā šo vislabāk būtu iezīmēt?
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Re: [Talk-in] Virtual Mappy Hours - India - December 2020

[Naveen Francis]

Forgot to keep this link.

2020 30DayMapChallenge - https://github.com/anirudhgovind/30DayMapChallenge


On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at 09:56, Naveen Francis  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Topic:- Visualizing OSM Data using R: The presentation will focus on
> thematic maps of urban areas made using OSM data, the R Programming
> Language, and the Tidyverse
>
> Presented by:-  Anirudh Govind.
> Anirudh is a trained architect and planner. His recent work explores the
> use of large open datasets to better understand urban environments. His
> work experience includes public space and public infrastructure projects
> developed around participatory planning methodologies
>
> OSM India Virtual Mappy Hour on Dec 5th, 2020 - 9-10pm IST.
> Please Join.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India/Virtual_Mappy_Hours
>
> Thanks
> naveenpf
>
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[Talk-in] Virtual Mappy Hours - India - December 2020

[Naveen Francis]

Hello all,

Topic:- Visualizing OSM Data using R: The presentation will focus on
thematic maps of urban areas made using OSM data, the R Programming
Language, and the Tidyverse

Presented by:-  Anirudh Govind.
Anirudh is a trained architect and planner. His recent work explores the
use of large open datasets to better understand urban environments. His
work experience includes public space and public infrastructure projects
developed around participatory planning methodologies

OSM India Virtual Mappy Hour on Dec 5th, 2020 - 9-10pm IST.
Please Join.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India/Virtual_Mappy_Hours

Thanks
naveenpf
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Re: [talk-au] How to map around blocked roads

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 4 Dec 2020 at 12:21, Bob Cameron  wrote:

> then add in a short section with a allowed access tag for something?
>

Is it allowed access though, or are people driving past there illegally?


Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[stevea]

On Dec 3, 2020, at 6:12 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> For those using or defending rape metaphors, shame on you.

I take offense (and will not be shamed) at Mike's gross mischaracterization 
(after I took GREAT pains to be painstaking) of my reiteration of Frederik's 
analogy of offensive-to-women behavior by a politician being something we 
should be highly wary and suspect of in our board election.  NEVER was the word 
"rape" used, the highly offensive behavior was called out AS highly offensive 
for the purpose of making an analogy:  "don't be sweet-talked by people who act 
highly offensively while promising not to act highly offensively after they are 
elected."  Moreover, such highly offensive behavior (certainly not rape) was 
NEVER condoned by neither Frederik nor myself.  Wow!

Frederik has no reason to be (a)shamed, he simply used strong language to say 
"be careful of false promises by deceptive people running for high office — you 
shouldn't be surprised when they remain deceptive after being elected."  (Some 
may he say did so with a colorful, perhaps offensive example – but I am certain 
him offering an example of heinous behavior does not mean he "defends rape.")  
Wow!  And, certainly I have no reason to be (a)shamed for doing my utmost to 
clarify that, while pointing out that such behavior of blaming the one who 
calls out such behavior (as, Mike, you seem to be doing to Frederik here, once 
again) is often exactly the same sort of abusive behavior!

If we get this sort of misunderstanding from Mike mischaracterizing what 
happened HERE, well, I leave to this list to imagine what he might do if 
elected.  Mike, your behavior and words — as do mine, as do Frederik's — are 
here on display for anybody to reach their own conclusions.  Yes, you have a 
lot of work in OSM to your credit, but you certainly made a mess of this.  You 
might say Frederik "baited" you (I disagree), but it is the mark of a true 
leader who can understand someone making an analogy versus twisting it 
(repeatedly!) into something that it isn't, "blaming he who calls out bad 
behavior."  Especially when you denigrate him with something he didn't say.

Some might say this is a misunderstanding, though in light of what I wrote 
earlier about blame-shifting, please understand this behavior is often deeply 
entrenched, often not being seen for what it is in the eye of the beholder.

I would love for this list to get back to topics which are much more cool 
(literally and figuratively), as once again, I type my words here to generate 
light, not heat.  While I give Mike one (single) point in his favor for 
recently replying and (at first, generally) sticking to topics, the one-line 
"zinger" he ends with that I quote above rather rudely wipes all the nice 
pieces off the board, subtracting far, far more than his one, single point.  
So, really, shame on you, Mike.

Please, let's keep it civil and honest here.

SteveA
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[talk-au] How to map around blocked roads

[Bob Cameron]

I don't do a lot of mapping, so thought I'd better check.

Where a road has been closed by a barrier, but people have driven around 
it, making their own road.


Example - Far left of this frame, intersection of Eyre Highway and 
(unsealed) Cows Head Corner Rd, SA - south side of Eyre.


https://www.mapillary.com/app/user/bob3bob3?lat=-33.20304604612525=136.1608876148938=17=44LIDXGpBljYGVWNj26uIw=photo=0.2439527070079778=0.6356433099503748=2.001460004581609

Reflective barrier warning sign in place, two mounds of dirt.

Have looked at the tagging guidelines for regional "not there" roads. I 
am guessing that I should cut the minor road short of the highway, then 
add in a short section with a allowed access tag for something?


Advice please.

Cheers Bob





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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Michal Migurski]

Hi Robert, Christoph, and Mateusz, thanks again for continuing to engage in 
this thread!

I’m going to post just once more since I think we’re reaching the limits of how 
much I can say on behalf of my employer here. I’m participating as a way to 
make myself available for questions and feedback during the board campaign, 
expand on my manifesto and Q, and hopefully make a case for why I’d be a 
helpful addition to the OSMF board.

I want to make sure that I am not mischaracterizing the points of view 
expressed upthread, so I’ll do my best to restate them: attribution is a form 
of remuneration or gratitude to the mappers who build the map, its high visual 
prominence is a sign of respect toward the OSM project, and the desired goal of 
attribution is to inform end-users of the ingredients that make up a basemap 
they’re seeing. This is adapted and condensed from Christoph’s wiki entry, I 
hope I’m conveying the key points correctly. As a board member, these points of 
view will be important for me to understand.

Commenters on this topic have compared OSM attribution to commercial 
attribution for data vendor companies, and suggested using their model of 
requiring equally-prominent logos and links. OSM is bigger and more important 
than this. I can talk more about why if anyone’s interested but the short 
version is that frontline engineers and designers at companies who use OSM data 
create powerful internal pressure to choose OSM in serious “build vs. buy” 
debates. OSM often wins because of its openness and flexibility, and its key to 
growth is awareness and participation from motivated experts. This is a much 
more interesting winning strategy than that employed by commercial vendors.

The OSMF board supports the interests of community members, and I would seek to 
do the same. I’ll improve the board’s decisions with respect to large, 
organized OSM community members poorly represented by past boards or venues 
like this talk@ list. I’d like to see other contributors like humanitarian 
mappers or new geographies on the board as well, and my manifesto calls for 
support of the candidates from Cameroon and the Philippines.

Thanks again to those of you who participating in the conversation.

For those using or defending rape metaphors, shame on you.

-mike.


michal migurski- contact info and pgp key:
sf/cahttp://mike.teczno.com/contact.html

> On Dec 2, 2020, at 1:50 PM, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> 
> Hi Robert, Martin, Alexandre, Jochen, Richard, Tom:
> 
> Thanks for your followups in this conversation! I am speaking here as an 
> individual and not on behalf of Facebook, so I’m going to focus on the areas 
> relevant to board candidacy.
>  
> First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
> awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
> that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can. 
> FB’s attribution to OSM is available to any viewer in a place that is 
> commonly associated with attribution.
> 
> Successful attribution guidelines published by the OSMF will make it much 
> easier to decide how to interpret the ODbL. As a board member with experience 
> in cartography design & implementation and OSM-relevant companies my 
> involvement will make it more likely that the eventual attribution guidelines 
> work for everyone.
> 
> A few of you have pushed back on my “beyond the ODbL” framing in my prior 
> reply. I don’t want to repeat myself too much, but the ODbL is very terse and 
> leaves a lot of room for interpretation. Common practices for data 
> attribution in map and non-map domains rely on click-through interactions 
> like the ones FB uses. This is a completely reasonable way to make users 
> aware of the source of map data to the extent that viewers know that maps are 
> made of data, that it is often sourced externally, and that the words in the 
> corner of a map are relevant to how that basemap was produced and not (for 
> example) the location of a friend or venue overlaid on top of it. The 
> community here on talk@ is understandably focused on basemap attribution, but 
> in the context of the many hundreds of ways that FB uses maps in its products 
> and the many sources of that data, there’s also important design and 
> interaction considerations with dramatically more needs to keep in balance. 
> The power of OSM has always been its openness to new kind of uses beyond 
> simple display maps. My interest as a board member is in maintaining this 
> open approach to uses that are bigger, weirder, more niche, or otherwise 
> different than OSM might have previously imagined.
> 
> Second, Jochen examines further the issue of conflict of interest. All of us 
> involved in OSM represent a variety of interests that we bring to the map. My 
> candidacy for the board is explicitly driven by a desire to see commercial 
> and 

Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Bande cyclable étroite

[Marc_marc]

> Le 3 déc. 2020 à 23:39, osm.sanspourr...@spamgourmet.com a écrit :
> 
>> Le 02/12/2020 à 13:08, Marc_marc pour le dépassement overtaking:pratical 
>> (inspiré de
>> maxspeed:pratical). valeur yes/no/limited
> Il y a la clé overtaking, pourquoi ajouter practical ?

parce que overtaking renseigne l'état légal (comme maxspeed) et non
un ressenti "est ce assez large ou pas pour dépasser" (comme maxspeed:pratical 
renseigne "en
pratique c'est cette vitesse")



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Re: [Talk-at] Gefahr durch Internet-Bergrouten

[robhubi]

Am 10. November 2020 20:22 schrieb Robert Grübler

> Bericht CTV Canada:
> https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/father-and-daughter-rescued-from-side-of-treacherous-b-c-mountain-1.4000757
>  
> Der Pilot ist der Wahnsinn!
 
Von dem CTV Bericht handelt dieser Post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/searchandrescue/comments/8wlz88/rescue_due_to_marking_of_trails_on_openstreetmap/
 
der substanzlos ist, aber die Kommentare sind sehr interessant.

LG Robert




--
Sent from: http://osm-talk-at.1116557.n5.nabble.com/

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le bourg d'une commune

[Christian Rogel]

> Le 1 déc. 2020 à 11:36, Marc_marc  a écrit :
> 
> Le 01.12.20 à 11:27, Christian Rogel a écrit :
>> Dire que bourg n’est pas un lieu-dit utilisé 
>> est une affirmation non étayée
> 
> que je n'ai pas dis...
> 
> bureau de poste, banque, mairie, bourg, tout cela sont des noms de
> lieux, mais ce sont des noms *communs* d'une *catégorie* de lieu et
> non des noms propres désignant un lieu précis.
> catégorie -> tag style amnity=townhall place=*
> nom propre -> name

Tu mélanges des choses qui, au niveau de l’individu, n’ont pas de rapport entre 
elles :
comment peut-on associer mentalement un bâtiment et une agglomération ?

Bourg est l’abréviation de « Le bourg de X » et cela peut signifier le « Le 
bourg X » (rare),
mais aussi "le bourg de X », X étant le territoire communal ou l’ancienne 
paroisse.

Il est tentant de simplifier de de dire « nom du bourg = nom du village », mais 
, quelquefois,
ça résiste.

Une commune issue de fusion peut donc avoir plus de un bourg.

Un ancien bourg peut être noyé dans une aggo et devenir un quartier.

Je connais deux bourgs qui sont des hameaux, plus petits que ceux de leur 
ressort.

Il y a aussi les « Vieux bourg de X » (où est passé l’actuel ?).

Bourg pourrait même désigner qu’une petite partie d’une aggomération basée sur 
le relief, par 
exemple.

Ma conclusion est que bourg pourrait être traité en alt_name = Bourg de X » et 
que dans le 
cas particulier des bourgs noyés dans une agglo, on pourrait fort bien avoir 
"name : Bourg »
(ou Le Bourg), place = neighbourood ».


Ce qui n’est pas satifaisant, c’est de faire disparaître une mention cadastrale 
au profit de ce qui
n’est qu’une équivalence approchée (village, hamlet, suburb)


Christian R.
Toujours là pour faire des propositions casse-…
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le bourg d'une commune

[osm . sanspourriel]

Le 03/12/2020 à 21:55, deuzeffe - opensm@deuzeffe.org a écrit :

Le 03/12/2020 à 11:04, Rpnpif via Talk-fr a écrit :

Bonsoir,


À Nantes, on a bien le Lieu unique ;) qui devrait être un nom commun.


Si tu es Nantais, tu sais bien que /Le Lieu Unique/ est bien un nom
propre (name=), comme le dit ades, (avec une évocation du passé du
lieu dans lequel il est installé...)


Tu veux dite le lieu unique (https://www.lelieuunique.com/,
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Lieu_unique).

Et oui ils ont mit tout en minuscules.

Dans OSM 3 majuscules mais l'arrêt de bus n'a pas d'article.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=le%20lieu%20unique#map=19/47.21529/-1.54560

Oui vous avez bien LU.

Le 03/12/2020 à 11:04, Rpnpif via Talk-fr - talk-fr@openstreetmap.org a
écrit :


Mon propre nom en a subi les conséquences.


C'est vrai que Rpnpif ;-).

Je ne sais qui dans le Lot a eu l'idée d'appeler une commune le bourg
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Bourg

Mais sinon les bourgs sont des dénominations génériques signifiant le
centre aggloméré de la commune.

Après il y a des dénominations spécifiques, au bourg de Guidel ils ont
bien réussi à faire un "Villeneuve le Bourg"

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?lat=47.791543=-3.4902096=17=CrtrlHno_7alPyfFePQ6yg=photo=0.2556606449554435=0.5015682081004983=2
Oui c'est une impasse ! Qui est 3 fois dans FANTOIR : lieu-dit (en
double) et voie sans adresses (1 entreprise de taxi). Dans OSM il y le
voisinage, pas la rue car il n'y pas de plaque de rue mais juste en
direction en début d'impasse. Devrait-on ajouter un noname=yes ? Je me
suis contenté de mettre la ref FANTOIR.

Jean-Yvon



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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Bande cyclable étroite

[osm . sanspourriel]

Le 02/12/2020 à 13:08, Marc_marc - marc_m...@mailo.com a écrit :

Le 01.12.20 à 23:52, Mathieu a écrit :

"est-ce qu'on peut rouler à deux de front avec un vélo lambda ici " ?

si tu veux vraiment, je pense à bicycle:lanes=2 unsigned=bicycle:lanes

et pour le dépassement overtaking:pratical (inspiré de
maxspeed:pratical). valeur yes/no/limited

Il y a la clé overtaking, pourquoi ajouter practical ? :

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:overtaking

Jean-Yvon



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[OSM-talk-fr] SDIS 32 :)

[Jacques Lavignotte]

https://www.sdis32.fr/interventions-en-cours/

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« Quand est-ce qu'on mange ? » AD (c) (tm)

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le bourg d'une commune

[deuzeffe]

Le 03/12/2020 à 11:04, Rpnpif via Talk-fr a écrit :

Bonsoir,


À Nantes, on a bien le Lieu unique ;) qui devrait être un nom commun.


Si tu es Nantais, tu sais bien que /Le Lieu Unique/ est bien un nom 
propre (name=), comme le dit ades, (avec une évocation du passé du lieu 
dans lequel il est installé...)


--
deuzeffe - rendez-moi mes petits beurres d'origine !

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Prochain CA OSM-FR - Mardi 1er décembre, 21h

[Frédéric Rodrigo]

Bonsoir,

Le compte rendu du dernier CA est disponible.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/OSM-FR/CA_2020-12-01


Frédéric.




Le 01/12/2020 à 20:57, Frédéric Rodrigo a écrit :

Rappel, c'est ce soir.

Le 29/11/2020 à 17:39, Frédéric Rodrigo a écrit :

Bonjour,

Le prochain CA de l'association OSM-FR va avoir lieu le mardi 1er 
décembre à 21h.


Viso : https://osmvideo.cloud68.co/user/fre-aux-yuh

La liste des sujets à l'ordre du jour et à compléter :

https://annuel.framapad.org/p/N_IDAQXYLHswlpU2s3oE

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/OSM-FR/CA_2020-12-01


Le CA est comme toujours ouvert à tout le monde.


Il sera précédé d'uns séance de présentation des DataItems par 
François à 20h45.



Frédéric.







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Re: [Talk-it] [tagging] Strutture residenziali per anziani

[Francesco Ansanelli]

Ciao,

quasi sicuramente il tag che userei è:

amenity=social_facility

Servirebbe una descrizione chiara, ma provo a dare qualche spunto...

Buona serata
Francesco

Il gio 3 dic 2020, 14:16 Cascafico Giovanni  ha
scritto:

> Ciao Lista,
>
> chi mi aiuta a creare uno schema di tagging per il dataset delle RSA
> [1] del Friuli Venezia Giulia? In particolare:
>
> campo "ASS":
> ASS1 - Triestina
> ASS2 - Isontina
> ASS3 - Alto Friuli
> ASS4 - Medio Friuli
> ASS5 - Bassa Friulana
> ASS6 - Friuli occidentale
>
> campo "natura giuridica":
> Azienda per i servizi sanitari
> Ente religioso
> Privata di mercato
> Privata sociale
> Pubblica ASP
> Pubblica comunale
> Pubblica tra Comuni associati
>
> campo "convenzione con SSR":
> si
> no
>
>
> campo "tipologia residenza":
>

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility

Abitare possibile
> Casa albergo

Comunità alloggio


> social_facility=shelter?


>
> Residenza ad utenza diversificata
>
Residenza ad Utenza Diversificata


social_facility=assisted_living?

Residenza polifunzionale


> social_facility=nursing_home
> ?
>

> Residenza polifunzionale con Mod.A


social_facility=hospice?

Residenza protetta


> social_facility=group_home?


>
> campo "Posti letto per autosufficienti":
> integer
>
> campo "Posti letto in polifunzionale":
> integer
>
>
> Anche link a eventuali import del genere son ben accetti :-)
>
>
> [1]
> https://www.dati.friuliveneziagiulia.it/Salute/Elenco-strutture-residenziali-per-anziani/hquw-jvsj
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 196, Issue 7

[St Niklaas]

Hi Phil Wyatt,

In  my humble opinion there are some issues between Open Street Map an open 
data community and Facebook is the opposite.
The only reason your mentioning working with them is IMHO a minor for your 
election.

All the Best

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[stevea]

Mikel:

I’m disappointed to see you characterize Frederik’s characterization of 
behavior as “garbage;” to do so is a red herring (intentional distraction).  
While I don’t want to put words in Frederik's mouth (indeed, I said I fully 
understand why he used such colorful language — to vividly identify what he 
sees as actual or perceived disingenuous or deceitful behavior), Frederik did 
so to identify hypocrisy and aggressive abuse.  This is because identifying and 
calling out abuse is the first step is tamping it down when it (or even its 
potential) is seen in any group — whether a family or a foundation.

A sad but true fact about people who abuse is they frequently “project,” 
blame-shifting and deflecting  their own atrocious behavior (abuse of women, 
abuse of power, aggressive power plays…) onto the very person who is victimized 
or who calls out and identifies this behavior.  This (bullying) can be a 
devastatingly effective tactic that actually re-victimizes the target of the 
abuse, making him or her appear to be the crazy (weak, abusive…) one in these 
actively aggressive acts.  It also intimidates “good (people) who say nothing 
and do nothing about those who perpetrate bad or evil acts” (I paraphrase) into 
CONTINUING to do nothing.  This allows the perpetrator to continue to get away 
with the abuse, effectively silencing many who would defend not only the single 
victim (target, survivor…) but those in the greater group (family, 
congregation, company, foundation, organization, country). 

The entire point of using such strong and colorful language is not to “make a 
point with garbage, further promulgating garbage.”  It is to highlight abuse as 
abuse — raw, difficult and uncomfortable as those facts are.  Pointing out that 
somebody else engages in atrocious behavior (and using strong language to do 
so) does not make the one pointing that finger a “slinger of garbage.”  This is 
an old (yet sadly, quite effective) trick from the playbook of nasty, 
aggressive people, especially as they put on a public face of charming “nice 
guy.”  This often results in one who identifies dangerous perpetrators of 
aggression, simply in their quest to call it out, becoming suspect themselves:  
“look at the histrionic, crazy drama-queen behavior by this unfortunate, 
name-caller” (but he won’t say “victim,” as that would identify the 
psychosocial dynamics of what is truly going on).  This ruse has existed 
forever in the history of people who exercise power with terrible acts of 
aggression while remaining covert as they do so, pointing to others as “garbage 
slinging, accusatory, overly dramatic / histrionic, name-calling, unstable 
people.”  It’s a sad, old trick, and the only way to stop it is to identify it 
and have it recognized by “good people who do (or say) SOMEthing” about it, 
rather than perpetrating the evil themselves with their silence.

In many years of often close and intimate interaction / collaboration with 
Frederik in OSM, I have never, not one single time, even had a HINT that he 
“evokes violence against women.”  That is a highly inflammatory statement, 
especially as you offer no evidence of it in what appears to be blame-shifting, 
when all Frederik did (it appears to me) was to make an analogy of one leader’s 
atrocious behavior having the potential for similar bad havior to infect our 
Board.  We should call that out as we see it, and that is what is going on 
here, nothing more.  Blame-shifting in the face of identifying bad behavior is 
something I (and others who have experienced this first-hand for what it is) 
find this behavior of yours highly suspect.

I apologize to the list for going into the deeper and darker aspects of human 
behavior here.  Sometimes, it is required to do so.

SteveA

On Dec 3, 2020, at 3:32 AM, Mikel Maron  wrote:
> Thanks Mateusz, I agree. Points can easily be made without such garbage. 
> Unfortunately Frederik has a habit of using rhetoric that evokes violence 
> against women. I’m not saying that he or anyone here personally holds biased 
> views about women. But the effect is the same, it degrades our entire 
> community. And we wonder why there are no women running for the board. 
> 
> Mikel


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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Dec 3, 2020, 11:07 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> Am Do., 3. Dez. 2020 um 10:49 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk <> 
> talk@openstreetmap.org> >:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by >> frede...@remote.org>> :
>>
>>> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
>>> whole
>>>
>> I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
>> to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.
>>
>> This really have not added anything useful and this insults
>> were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
>> without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
>>
>
>
> Mateusz, have a second read what Stevea wrote, because he put it very well
> why sometimes it may be appropriate to use strong terms: "However, sometimes,
> as when we have abusive, naked aggression inside of (sometimes at the very 
> top of!)
> institutions, we must call out such atrocious behavior.  We call it out to 
> say 
> “we will not stand for this.” 
>
I fully agree. And I am a bit involved in this, see 
https://github.com/matkoniecz/illegal-use-of-OpenStreetMap

I create it slowly, it is intended to be a version of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lacking_proper_attribution that would be 
clear to someone from outside OSM.

Also, focusing on especially egregious violations.

Primarily by massive corporation where missing attribution is not caused by 
lack of 
resources, but by a deliberate plagiarism.

In Mapbox or FB display of attribution certainly went through review that judged
violating OSM license as safe.

> Sometimes, colorful language is used to draw attention to this.
>
In general I agree, see repository name that I linked above.

This was deliberate, despite some risk that one of corporations listed there
(I plan to add FB there with evidence of violating OSBL) may decide
to attack me using their overwhelming advantage in terms of money,
number of employed lawyers and experience in avoiding legal system
or misusing it for their own advantage.

I strongly prefer claims and language such as 
"FB commits large scale-copyright violation",
"FB is llegally using OpenStreetMap data to show maps",
"FB is plagiarising maps shown on their website and in apps",
"Mapbox misrepresents actual source of data",
"FB representative claims that attribution is not needed to be clearly 
displayed, what is untrue"
 "OSMF can at any moment file accurate DMCA notice to take down FB apps"
"Recent attribution guideline looks like written by FB and Mapbox lawyers,
misrepresents ODBL requirements and is deeply harmful"

All of them are accurate.

While "missing attribution is like sexual assault" seems to be inaccurate,
unlikely to be useful and unlikely to be seriously treated by people, especially
outside OSM community.

>   Sometimes, because people either are not fully aware of this in their 
> experience, wish to turn away from looking at evil, or because they are part 
> of those who "say nothing about bad men” (in the sense of John Stuart Mill’s 
> quote, while "good men...look on and do nothing") the very nature of nasty, 
> disingenuous people who mislead, lie, deceive, do not recuse, demand 
> unwarranted loyalty, refuse to play by the rules, “stack the (court, Board)," 
> slander… must be so vividly brought to light that strong and colorful 
> language IS required."
>
I fully support strong language - just one without pulling into problematic 
comparison,
USA politics, genitalia and so on. It seems to be both counteproductive and 
problematic.
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] *** SPAM *** Re: Le bourg d'une commune

[ades]

PS, j’habite dans le bourg, ou plutot dans « l’bourg » , mais ça c’est en 
causant avec ceux qui savent, pas sur une carte ;-)

> Le 3 déc. 2020 à 15:57, ades  a écrit :
> 
> et bien non ! "Le Liieu unique", est une structure,  pas un lieu (dit ?) même 
> si c’est à un endroit bien précis de Nantes, dans un lieu quoi… , un peu 
> comme Bourg la Reine; qui n’est pas un bourg, même si c’en est un, 
> 
>> Le 3 déc. 2020 à 11:04, Rpnpif via Talk-fr  a 
>> écrit :
>> 
>> Bonjour,
>> 
>> Le 01/12/2020 à 11:36, Marc_marc a écrit :
>>> Le 01.12.20 à 11:27, Christian Rogel a écrit :
 Dire que bourg n’est pas un lieu-dit utilisé
 est une affirmation non étayée
>>> que je n'ai pas dis...
>>> 
>>> bureau de poste, banque, mairie, bourg, tout cela sont des noms de
>>> lieux, mais ce sont des noms *communs* d'une *catégorie* de lieu et
>>> non des noms propres désignant un lieu précis.
>>> catégorie -> tag style amnity=townhall place=*
>>> nom propre -> name
>> 
>> Ce n'est pas toujours un nom commun mais le véritable nom d'un simple 
>> lieu-dit ou bien de l'agglomération dans un ensemble plus vaste du nom de la 
>> commune. Les exemples existent mais je ne peux les trouver à la minute.
>> 
>> Je pense qu'il ne faut pas être rigide dans ce domaine comme le sont 
>> certains employés de l'État civil qui plaquent leurs idées reçues sur les 
>> noms propres de personnes ou de lieux-dits à l'origine de nombreuses erreurs 
>> par rapport à la réalité.
>> Mon propre nom en a subi les conséquences. Cela tue la créativité du simple 
>> citoyen et le dépossède de son histoire ou de l'histoire du lieu, si on veut 
>> philosopher.
>> 
>> Certains maires se sentent même obligés de débaptiser des lieux pour aller 
>> vers un consensus de soi-disant bon sens.
>> 
>> À Nantes, on a bien le Lieu unique ;) qui devrait être un nom commun.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Rpnpif
>> 
>> 
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] *** SPAM *** Re: Le bourg d'une commune

[ades]

et bien non ! "Le Liieu unique", est une structure,  pas un lieu (dit ?) même 
si c’est à un endroit bien précis de Nantes, dans un lieu quoi… , un peu comme 
Bourg la Reine; qui n’est pas un bourg, même si c’en est un, 

> Le 3 déc. 2020 à 11:04, Rpnpif via Talk-fr  a 
> écrit :
> 
> Bonjour,
> 
> Le 01/12/2020 à 11:36, Marc_marc a écrit :
>> Le 01.12.20 à 11:27, Christian Rogel a écrit :
>>> Dire que bourg n’est pas un lieu-dit utilisé
>>> est une affirmation non étayée
>> que je n'ai pas dis...
>> 
>> bureau de poste, banque, mairie, bourg, tout cela sont des noms de
>> lieux, mais ce sont des noms *communs* d'une *catégorie* de lieu et
>> non des noms propres désignant un lieu précis.
>> catégorie -> tag style amnity=townhall place=*
>> nom propre -> name
> 
> Ce n'est pas toujours un nom commun mais le véritable nom d'un simple 
> lieu-dit ou bien de l'agglomération dans un ensemble plus vaste du nom de la 
> commune. Les exemples existent mais je ne peux les trouver à la minute.
> 
> Je pense qu'il ne faut pas être rigide dans ce domaine comme le sont certains 
> employés de l'État civil qui plaquent leurs idées reçues sur les noms propres 
> de personnes ou de lieux-dits à l'origine de nombreuses erreurs par rapport à 
> la réalité.
> Mon propre nom en a subi les conséquences. Cela tue la créativité du simple 
> citoyen et le dépossède de son histoire ou de l'histoire du lieu, si on veut 
> philosopher.
> 
> Certains maires se sentent même obligés de débaptiser des lieux pour aller 
> vers un consensus de soi-disant bon sens.
> 
> À Nantes, on a bien le Lieu unique ;) qui devrait être un nom commun.
> 
> -- 
> Rpnpif
> 
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fr


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[Talk-it] [tagging] Strutture residenziali per anziani

[Cascafico Giovanni]

Ciao Lista,

chi mi aiuta a creare uno schema di tagging per il dataset delle RSA
[1] del Friuli Venezia Giulia? In particolare:

campo "ASS":
ASS1 - Triestina
ASS2 - Isontina
ASS3 - Alto Friuli
ASS4 - Medio Friuli
ASS5 - Bassa Friulana
ASS6 - Friuli occidentale

campo "natura giuridica":
Azienda per i servizi sanitari
Ente religioso
Privata di mercato
Privata sociale
Pubblica ASP
Pubblica comunale
Pubblica tra Comuni associati

campo "convenzione con SSR":
si
no

campo "tipologia residenza":
Abitare possibile
Casa albergo
Comunità alloggio
Residenza ad utenza diversificata
Residenza ad Utenza Diversificata
Residenza polifunzionale
Residenza polifunzionale con Mod.A
Residenza protetta


campo "Posti letto per autosufficienti":
integer

campo "Posti letto in polifunzionale":
integer


Anche link a eventuali import del genere son ben accetti :-)


[1] 
https://www.dati.friuliveneziagiulia.it/Salute/Elenco-strutture-residenziali-per-anziani/hquw-jvsj

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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Christoph Hormann]

> Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)  hat am 
> 03.12.2020 12:27 geschrieben:
> 
> [...] It means that the
> attribution method you use must be reasonably calculated to ensure
> that *every* person viewing will be aware that content has come from
> OpenStreetMap. Nowhere does the clause allow you to only provide the
> opportunity for anyone to be able to discover the source if they
> decide to, or to only ensure some people are aware.

Exactly.

This has been identified to be the community consensus very early in the 
discussion on the attribution guideline and it was also quite clearly the 
expectation of the community when the ODbL was originally adopted in the 
license change process.

In the Community attribution advice i formulated some time ago:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_attribution_advice

I phrased it like this:

"What we mean by this is that the criterion for a valid attribution is if it 
effectively makes the user aware that OpenStreetMap data licensed under the 
ODbL is used."

Side note:  Facebook's main business model is selling the attention of their 
users to paying advertisement customers.  They have a huge department doing 
nothing but analysis of their users' behavior all day long.  They know 
*exactly* how many (or more accurately: how few) of the users of their maps 
actually become aware of the origin of the data in OSM.  

-- 
Christoph Hormann 
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] osmose + BANO = dégommer du rouge en mode turbo !

[Marc_marc]

Bonjour,

Le 01/12/2020 à 18:44, Christian Quest a écrit :
> analyse osmose comparant BANO et les noms
> de rues absents / incorrects.

la couche bano pourrait-elle être rajoutée sur le front osmose ?
cela limiterait le nombre de clic pour se faire un avis :)

l'analyse ne cible que les noms manquant ?
cela serrait intéressant d'avoir quelque chose pour les noms
proche tel que osm Rue Faustin <> fantoir Rue Faustin Delmestre
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/44324101
ou encore Rue Sabine Ducadosse <> Rue Sabin Ducadosse
afin d'au moins rajouter la ref fantoir pour que l'outil
de comparaison renseigne que c'est une différence
au lieu d'un nom totalement manquant,
une logique possible serrait de cibler les cas où il n'y a
qu'un mot de différence entre osm et fantoir

Cordialement,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mikel Maron]

Thanks Mateusz, I agree. Points can easily be made without such garbage. 
Unfortunately Frederik has a habit of using rhetoric that evokes violence 
against women. I’m not saying that he or anyone here personally holds biased 
views about women. But the effect is the same, it degrades our entire 
community. And we wonder why there are no women running for the board. 

Mikel

On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 4:45 AM, Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
 wrote:




Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:

People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
whole

I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.

This really have not added anything useful and this insults
were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 at 21:56, Michal Migurski  wrote:
> First, the text of the ODbL is explicit about “reasonably calculated” 
> awareness. FB believes its maps comply with this. The ODbL does not require 
> that “every” person see the attribution. It requires that “any” person can.

I believe that you are wrong here. In ODbL 4.3, "any Person" is
synonymous with "every Person". The term "reasonably calculated"
modifies the whole clause, and is about the result of the scheme as a
whole, not "reasonable awareness" by individuals. It means that the
attribution method you use must be reasonably calculated to ensure
that *every* person viewing will be aware that content has come from
OpenStreetMap. Nowhere does the clause allow you to only provide the
opportunity for anyone to be able to discover the source if they
decide to, or to only ensure some people are aware. Yes, the
"reasonably calculated" means that not 100% of people necessarily have
to be aware, but the attribution scheme does have to have the purpose
and intention of making everyone aware. You have to be able to say
that under a reasonable assessment of the scheme, everyone viewing the
work will know of the ODbL source. I think it's clear this is not the
case for the current Facebook attribution, as clearly lots of people
will not choose to click on the "(i)" icon.

Given your interpretation of ODbL 4.3 and the statements you have made
so far, does this mean that you and/or Facebook are admitting that the
current Facebook attribution does not meet this stricter
interpretation of 4.3? i.e. the current Facebook attribution is not
"reasonably calculated" to ensure that every person who "uses, views,
accesses, interacts with, or is otherwise exposed to the Produced Work
aware that Content was obtained from" OpenStreetMap?

I think this is a crucial point that the OSM community needs an answer
to, given your candidacy for the OSMF Board.

Many thanks,

Robert.

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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le bourg d'une commune

[Marc_marc]

Bonjour,

Le 03.12.20 à 11:04, Rpnpif via Talk-fr a écrit :
> Le 01/12/2020 à 11:36, Marc_marc a écrit :
>> Le 01.12.20 à 11:27, Christian Rogel a écrit :
>>> Dire que bourg n’est pas un lieu-dit utilisé
>>> est une affirmation non étayée
>> que je n'ai pas dis...
>>
>> bureau de poste, banque, mairie, bourg, tout cela sont des noms de
>> lieux, mais ce sont des noms *communs* d'une *catégorie* de lieu et
>> non des noms propres désignant un lieu précis.
> 
> Ce n'est pas toujours un nom commun mais le véritable nom d'un simple
> lieu-dit

freed m'a fait parvenir une photo d'un lieu dont le nom propre
du lieu est "Le bourg"... horrible mais réel
https://www.lot-46.com/bourgle-panneau-vignette-035-001/
donc en effet name="Le Bourg" est correct à cet endroit :(
au moins à cet endroit on ne se pose pas la question
de alt_name"Le Bourg de..." :)



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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 3. Dez. 2020 um 10:49 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org>:

>
>
>
> Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:
>
> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole
>
> I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
> to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.
>
> This really have not added anything useful and this insults
> were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
> without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
>


Mateusz, have a second read what Stevea wrote, because he put it very well
why sometimes it may be appropriate to use strong terms: "However,
sometimes, as when we have abusive, naked aggression inside of (sometimes
at the very top of!) institutions, we must call out such atrocious
behavior.  We call it out to say “we will not stand for this.”  Sometimes,
colorful language is used to draw attention to this.  Sometimes, because
people either are not fully aware of this in their experience, wish to turn
away from looking at evil, or because they are part of those who "say
nothing about bad men” (in the sense of John Stuart Mill’s quote, while
"good men...look on and do nothing") the very nature of nasty, disingenuous
people who mislead, lie, deceive, do not recuse, demand unwarranted
loyalty, refuse to play by the rules, “stack the (court, Board)," slander…
must be so vividly brought to light that strong and colorful language IS
required."

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk-fr] Le bourg d'une commune

[Rpnpif via Talk-fr]

Bonjour,

Le 01/12/2020 à 11:36, Marc_marc a écrit :

Le 01.12.20 à 11:27, Christian Rogel a écrit :

Dire que bourg n’est pas un lieu-dit utilisé
est une affirmation non étayée

que je n'ai pas dis...

bureau de poste, banque, mairie, bourg, tout cela sont des noms de
lieux, mais ce sont des noms *communs* d'une *catégorie* de lieu et
non des noms propres désignant un lieu précis.
catégorie -> tag style amnity=townhall place=*
nom propre -> name


Ce n'est pas toujours un nom commun mais le véritable nom d'un simple 
lieu-dit ou bien de l'agglomération dans un ensemble plus vaste du nom 
de la commune. Les exemples existent mais je ne peux les trouver à la 
minute.


Je pense qu'il ne faut pas être rigide dans ce domaine comme le sont 
certains employés de l'État civil qui plaquent leurs idées reçues sur 
les noms propres de personnes ou de lieux-dits à l'origine de nombreuses 
erreurs par rapport à la réalité.
Mon propre nom en a subi les conséquences. Cela tue la créativité du 
simple citoyen et le dépossède de son histoire ou de l'histoire du lieu, 
si on veut philosopher.


Certains maires se sentent même obligés de débaptiser des lieux pour 
aller vers un consensus de soi-disant bon sens.


À Nantes, on a bien le Lieu unique ;) qui devrait être un nom commun.

--
Rpnpif


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Re: [OSM-talk] I’m running for OSMF board and I’ve set up office hours for questions

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Dec 3, 2020, 00:44 by frede...@remote.org:

> People have thought the same about Donald Trump - yeah, this
> whole
>
I think that form of this is very unfortunate and references
to Trump and genitalia could be dropped without losing anything.

This really have not added anything useful and this insults
were problematic. Especially as the same could be expressed
without comparing such actions to rape (implied rape?).
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Re: [talk-cz] Moderní komunikační kanál?

[Jan Dudík]

Ještě tu nepadla jedna věc - pokud člověk používá jeden mail (více mailů
stahovaných do stejného klienta), obvykle si všimne nové zprávy relativně
rychle (pokud není ve skluzu s vyřizováním konkrétní složky). Věřím, že
většina lidí se na mail podívá alespoň několikrát za týden.

Oproti tomu jakákoliv jiná aplikace, ať už webová nebo na mobil vyžaduje,
aby se na ní člověk díval - buď chodl na nějakou stránku nebo zapínal
aplikaci (nebo ji nechal běžet na pozadí a pak mu pořád chodily notifikace).
Sleduju určitá fóra a nebýt toho, že mám dotčenou stránku neustále
připnutou v prohlížeči, asi bych se tam nedíval ani jednou týdně.

Pokud by komunikace probíhala na platformě, kterou dotyčný často používá i
pro jiné účely (pro někoho to může být facebook, pro jiného discord, pro
třetího třeba irc), pak to pro dotyčného má obdobnou výhodu jako mail.
Problém je, že touto platformou je pro každého něco jiného.

JAnD


st 2. 12. 2020 v 19:40 odesílatel gebylist via talk-cz <
talk-cz@openstreetmap.org> napsal:

> Dne 02.12.2020 v 16:14 Jiri Vlasak napsal(a):
> > komunikace přes email *je standardní* (nikoli poměrně.) OSM (nejen cz)
> komunita
> > mailing listy používá s úspěchem po celém světě [1].
>
> Já bych navíc dodal, že email má opravdu každý! Už jen proto, že
> registrace na kdejakých jiných komunikačních platformách email vyžaduje.
> Ergo, email je komunikačí nástroj s nejširším záběrem.
>
>
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