Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Little Maps]

On 27 Feb 2023, at 9:05 am, Tom Brennan  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like the general consensus is:
> - Strava heatmap is good for aligning *existing* tracks
> - Strava shouldn't be used for the creation of new tracks without some ground 
> truthing.

Hi all, nice discussion. I agree but would broaden the 2nd point. The focus for 
the thread was walking tracks (paths etc in OSM). For vehicle tracks (fire 
trails etc), there’s not always a need to compare Strava against ground 
truthing (great though this would be) and careful inspection of imagery may 
often suffice. OSM’s vehicle tracks / fire trails are incomplete (or absent) in 
many areas, and Strava’s heat map is a great way to prioritise mapping of well 
used tracks using imagery, using the same care as all other mapping from 
imagery. So, I’d suggest broadening the 2nd point to ‘… without ground truthing 
or careful inspection of imagery, where appropriate”.  Cheers Ian
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Warin]

On 26/2/23 20:59, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:




Feb 26, 2023, 10:20 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:


On 26/2/23 06:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

shop = opał → shop = fuel



Opal is also a gemstone, Australia being a leading source. It is
also a fuel in Australia ... but that would not be sold in shops
but petrol stations.

note that it is not opal, it is opał with 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81 at the end


Not in Australia. Opal with an L.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7145645423

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7145645424

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7145645443

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3298293637

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2016079949

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7145645475

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7145646105

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3298279023

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4822177921


and on and on..



shop=map -> shop=maps
or maybe it would be better to change in opposite direction?
it is not too late as it is a rarely used tag

There are few shops selling maps these days .. unfortunately.

still, managed to find and map two :)



https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5421309165

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Sebastian Azagra Flores via Talk-au]

Use Strava heat maps with caution as they are a record of where people have ridden but doesn’t reflect the correct permissions of a way. regards,Sebastian On 27 Feb 2023, at 9:09 am, Adam Horan  wrote:According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strava and https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permissions/Strava there is permission to trace from the Strava heatmap.(Which is fair enough given the extensive use they make of OSM maps for display and routing)AdamOn Mon, 27 Feb 2023 at 08:42, Michael Collinson  wrote:
  

  
  
I use Strava heatmaps only as a "referential" source, i.e. seeing
  potentially missing or badly misaligned paths and then taking a
  walk that way. In addition to other comments about using them
  directly, I'd also wonder whether Strava copyright allows it but
  have not explicitly analysed.
In Sweden, I have found them a great referential source, but then
  we have "all man's right" and off-path walking is not generally an
  issue so there are many useful informal paths.
Mike

On 2023-02-26 22:10, Adam Horan wrote:


  
  

  My view is also that Strava heatmaps are
insufficient on their own to prove a track. They do show
that a reasonable number of people have passed along a
particular route in recent times. They don't prove a path or
track, and they give no indication of permissions.

  
  
  However I did look for details of way 963735356 in
the Strava heatmap, and there's very little in Strava in
that area. It's possible the user did have the heatmap
open in iD but didn't trace all the routes from there.
Some might be 'local knowledge'.



I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to
  refine the route of known tracks, especially if there's
  lots of tree cover and you can't see the tracks too well
  in imagery.
10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a
  single GPS track which you might record yourself.


Adam




  

  
  
  
On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24,
  Tom Brennan 
  wrote:

Do
  people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from
  Strava 
  heatmaps?
  
  I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been
  mapped by 
  an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
  
  They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are
  known 
  bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to
  have a 
  track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3
  years of La Nina!
  
  Example:
  https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
  
  cheers
  Tom
  
  Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
  Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
  
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Josh Marshall]

I'm another big user of Strava for tracing... so thought I'd chime in with
my approach.

These days, not so simple to get access to the good heatmap direct in
editors, since they restricted the higher zoom levels to when you're logged
in. So since that change, when I'm in a rambling mood (which is most of the
time) I'll use the mobile app with both my own heatmap and the global one
on-screen to explore where I haven't been, and prioritise areas with
obvious heat but no OSM way in order to map them afterwards.

Actually got caught out in bushfire season once because I trusted OSM too
much, and had to bail out through an extended route that was closed.
Learned my lesson. I'm very slow to do it, but I have removed some tracks
in the past where there are no signs left on the ground... that was
definitely one time I didn't hesitate to do so.

On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 at 09:08, Adam Horan  wrote:

> According to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Strava and
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Permissions/Strava there is
> permission to trace from the Strava heatmap.
>
> (Which is fair enough given the extensive use they make of OSM maps for
> display and routing)
>
> Adam
>
> On Mon, 27 Feb 2023 at 08:42, Michael Collinson  wrote:
>
>> I use Strava heatmaps only as a "referential" source, i.e. seeing
>> potentially missing or badly misaligned paths and then taking a walk that
>> way. In addition to other comments about using them directly, I'd also
>> wonder whether Strava copyright allows it but have not explicitly analysed.
>>
>> In Sweden, I have found them a great referential source, but then we have
>> "all man's right" and off-path walking is not generally an issue so there
>> are many useful informal paths.
>>
>> Mike
>> On 2023-02-26 22:10, Adam Horan wrote:
>>
>> My view is also that Strava heatmaps are insufficient on their own to
>> prove a track. They do show that a reasonable number of people have passed
>> along a particular route in recent times. They don't prove a path or track,
>> and they give no indication of permissions.
>>
>> However I did look for details of way 963735356 in the Strava heatmap,
>> and there's very little in Strava in that area. It's possible the user did
>> have the heatmap open in iD but didn't trace all the routes from there.
>> Some might be 'local knowledge'.
>>
>> I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to refine the route of
>> known tracks, especially if there's lots of tree cover and you can't see
>> the tracks too well in imagery.
>> 10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a single GPS track
>> which you might record yourself.
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24, Tom Brennan  wrote:
>>
>>> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
>>> heatmaps?
>>>
>>> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped by
>>> an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
>>>
>>> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
>>> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
>>> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La
>>> Nina!
>>>
>>> Example:
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
>>> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>>>
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>>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Tom Brennan]

Hi Adam

That was my take on why the 'heat' is no longer there.

The fires of 2019-20 burnt that area fairly badly. The scrub in places 
is now very tough going, but would have been easier in say mid-to-late 2020.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 26/02/2023 10:24 pm, Adam Horan wrote:
This page 
https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/216918877-Strava-Metro-and-the-Global-Heatmap 
says that "The Global Heatmap shows 'heat' made by aggregated, public 
activities *over the last year.*"


So it's possible there were routes showing when the original mapper 
mapped this but they've expired now.



On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 22:10, Adam Horan > wrote:


My view is also that Strava heatmaps are insufficient on their own
to prove a track. They do show that a reasonable number of people
have passed along a particular route in recent times. They don't
prove a path or track, and they give no indication of permissions.

However I did look for details of way 963735356 in the Strava
heatmap, and there's very little in Strava in that area. It's
possible the user did have the heatmap open in iD but didn't trace
all the routes from there. Some might be 'local knowledge'.

I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to refine the route
of known tracks, especially if there's lots of tree cover and you
can't see the tracks too well in imagery.
10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a single GPS track
which you might record yourself.

Adam



On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24, Tom Brennan mailto:webs...@ozultimate.com>> wrote:

Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
heatmaps?

I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been
mapped by
an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.

They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to
have a
track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years
of La Nina!

Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning

Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com


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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Tom Brennan]

Sounds like the general consensus is:
- Strava heatmap is good for aligning *existing* tracks
- Strava shouldn't be used for the creation of new tracks without some 
ground truthing.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 26/02/2023 6:19 pm, Tom Brennan wrote:
Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava 
heatmaps?


I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped by 
an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.


They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known 
bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a 
track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La Nina!


Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Tom Brennan]

My understanding of the Strava heatmap is that it only shows the last 
year's worth of tracking.


The changeset in question was from July 2021, which was around 18 months 
after the fires that swept through the area. The scrub would probably 
have been negotiable then, but less so in recent times. My assumption is 
that the mapper saw a faint heatmap in that area at the time, some of 
which no longer appears as time has moved on.


As mentioned earlier, my general knowledge of the area from 25 years of 
bushwalking suggests there are unlikely to be tracks on the ground other 
than on the major routes.


I agree that heatmaps, particularly faint ones, aren't a justification 
for creating new tracks on the ground. Especially without some 
on-the-ground checks.


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 26/02/2023 10:19 pm, Ewen Hill wrote:

Hi,
   Having a look at the Strava heat map, I can't see any activity at 
all. Select labels and hybrid to see the OSM layer,
https://www.strava.com/heatmap#17.00/150.12413/-33.87746/hot/all 

https://www.strava.com/heatmap#15.99/150.14939/-33.91318/hot/all 



Nor can I see any sort of trail using the imagery available to us and 
the fact that one of the paths clearly crosses a cliff is showing it 
doesn't exist so Is this mapping from a bushfire response or where a 
cool burn took place with  small 4wd track or firebreak or was the 
editor thinking something existed?


To take Tony's comment about ground truthing... I have recently been 
looking for supposed osm tracks in a particular area without success 
however the strava heatmap now shows my meanderings around these now 
removed trails so while the Strava heat layer is fantastic for aligning 
known tracks, it shouldn't be used for the creation of new tracks 
without other validation and I do get geographically challenged in the 
bush... a lot!


Ewen



On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 20:55, Tom Brennan > wrote:


Sorry, my bad! I should have linked the "track" on the other side of
Whalania Creek:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/963735356


cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning

Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com 

On 26/02/2023 8:20 pm, fors...@ozonline.com.au
 wrote:
 > Hi
 >
 > Am I missing something? I looked at way 952248376 and found a user
 > Pieseczek with 2 changesets and 4 new ways over a year old. If
there was
 > any reference to Strava heat maps then I missed it. Is there any
 > indication whether Pieseczek is resident in Australia apart from the
 > likely origin of the name?
 >
 > If the ways are solely based on heatmaps, they should be deleted
because
 > they can not be ground truthed. But they appear to map ridge
lines. Were
 > they made from the satellite photos or contours? Ridge lines can be
 > ground truthed and belong on OSM.
 >
 > I agree with Cleary on mapping of illegal trails but that may not be
 > relevant in this case.
 >
 > Tony
 >
 >> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
 >> heatmaps?
 >>
 >> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been
mapped
 >> by an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
 >>
 >> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
 >> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
 >> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years
of La
 >> Nina!
 >>
 >> Example:
 >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376

 >>
 >> cheers
 >> Tom
 >> 
 >> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning

 >> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

 >>
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 >> see http://www.australiaonline.net.au/mailscanning

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Michael Collinson]

I use Strava heatmaps only as a "referential" source, i.e. seeing 
potentially missing or badly misaligned paths and then taking a walk 
that way. In addition to other comments about using them directly, I'd 
also wonder whether Strava copyright allows it but have not explicitly 
analysed.


In Sweden, I have found them a great referential source, but then we 
have "all man's right" and off-path walking is not generally an issue so 
there are many useful informal paths.


Mike

On 2023-02-26 22:10, Adam Horan wrote:
My view is also that Strava heatmaps are insufficient on their own to 
prove a track. They do show that a reasonable number of people have 
passed along a particular route in recent times. They don't prove a 
path or track, and they give no indication of permissions.


However I did look for details of way 963735356 in the Strava heatmap, 
and there's very little in Strava in that area. It's possible the user 
did have the heatmap open in iD but didn't trace all the routes from 
there. Some might be 'local knowledge'.


I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to refine the route of 
known tracks, especially if there's lots of tree cover and you can't 
see the tracks too well in imagery.
10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a single GPS track 
which you might record yourself.


Adam



On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24, Tom Brennan  wrote:

Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
heatmaps?

I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been
mapped by
an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.

They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of
La Nina!

Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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[talk-ph] weeklyOSM #657 2023-02-14-2023-02-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 657,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/archives/16342

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
https://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
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[OSM-talk-fr] hebdoOSM Nº 657 2023-02-14-2023-02-20

[weeklyteam]

Bonjour,

Le résumé hebdomadaire n° 657 de l'actualité OpenStreetMap vient de paraître 
*en français*. Un condensé à retrouver sur :

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/archives/16342/

Bonne lecture !

Saviez-vous que vous pouvez vous aussi soumettre des messages pour la note 
hebdomadaire sans être membre ? Il vous suffit de vous connecter sur 
https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login avec votre compte OSM. Pour en savoir plus 
sur la rédaction d'un article, cliquez ici: 
https://www.weeklyosm.eu/fr/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm

hebdoOSM ? 
Qui : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
Où : 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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[OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #657 2023-02-14-2023-02-20

[weeklyteam]

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 657,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of a lot of 
things happening in the openstreetmap world:

https://www.weeklyosm.eu/archives/16342

Enjoy! 

Did you know that you can also submit messages for the weeklyOSM? Just log in 
to https://osmbc.openstreetmap.de/login with your OSM account. Read more about 
how to write a post here: 
https://www.weeklyosm.eu/this-news-should-be-in-weeklyosm 

weeklyOSM? 
who: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages 
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Adam Horan]

This page
https://support.strava.com/hc/en-us/articles/216918877-Strava-Metro-and-the-Global-Heatmap
says that "The Global Heatmap shows 'heat' made by aggregated, public
activities *over the last year.*"

So it's possible there were routes showing when the original mapper mapped
this but they've expired now.


On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 22:10, Adam Horan  wrote:

> My view is also that Strava heatmaps are insufficient on their own to
> prove a track. They do show that a reasonable number of people have passed
> along a particular route in recent times. They don't prove a path or track,
> and they give no indication of permissions.
>
> However I did look for details of way 963735356 in the Strava heatmap, and
> there's very little in Strava in that area. It's possible the user did have
> the heatmap open in iD but didn't trace all the routes from there. Some
> might be 'local knowledge'.
>
> I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to refine the route of
> known tracks, especially if there's lots of tree cover and you can't see
> the tracks too well in imagery.
> 10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a single GPS track which
> you might record yourself.
>
> Adam
>
>
>
> On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24, Tom Brennan  wrote:
>
>> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
>> heatmaps?
>>
>> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped by
>> an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
>>
>> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
>> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
>> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La
>> Nina!
>>
>> Example:
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
>>
>> cheers
>> Tom
>> 
>> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
>> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>>
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>
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Ewen Hill]

Hi,
  Having a look at the Strava heat map, I can't see any activity at all.
Select labels and hybrid to see the OSM layer,
https://www.strava.com/heatmap#17.00/150.12413/-33.87746/hot/all
https://www.strava.com/heatmap#15.99/150.14939/-33.91318/hot/all

Nor can I see any sort of trail using the imagery available to us and the
fact that one of the paths clearly crosses a cliff is showing it doesn't
exist so Is this mapping from a bushfire response or where a cool burn took
place with  small 4wd track or firebreak or was the editor thinking
something existed?

To take Tony's comment about ground truthing... I have recently been
looking for supposed osm tracks in a particular area without success
however the strava heatmap now shows my meanderings around these now
removed trails so while the Strava heat layer is fantastic for aligning
known tracks, it shouldn't be used for the creation of new tracks without
other validation and I do get geographically challenged in the bush... a
lot!

Ewen



On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 20:55, Tom Brennan  wrote:

> Sorry, my bad! I should have linked the "track" on the other side of
> Whalania Creek:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/963735356
>
> cheers
> Tom
> 
> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>
> On 26/02/2023 8:20 pm, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Am I missing something? I looked at way 952248376 and found a user
> > Pieseczek with 2 changesets and 4 new ways over a year old. If there was
> > any reference to Strava heat maps then I missed it. Is there any
> > indication whether Pieseczek is resident in Australia apart from the
> > likely origin of the name?
> >
> > If the ways are solely based on heatmaps, they should be deleted because
> > they can not be ground truthed. But they appear to map ridge lines. Were
> > they made from the satellite photos or contours? Ridge lines can be
> > ground truthed and belong on OSM.
> >
> > I agree with Cleary on mapping of illegal trails but that may not be
> > relevant in this case.
> >
> > Tony
> >
> >> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
> >> heatmaps?
> >>
> >> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped
> >> by an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
> >>
> >> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
> >> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
> >> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La
> >> Nina!
> >>
> >> Example:
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
> >>
> >> cheers
> >> Tom
> >> 
> >> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> >> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
> >>
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> >>
> >> _
> >> This mail has been virus scanned by Australia On Line
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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-- 
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Adam Horan]

My view is also that Strava heatmaps are insufficient on their own to prove
a track. They do show that a reasonable number of people have passed along
a particular route in recent times. They don't prove a path or track, and
they give no indication of permissions.

However I did look for details of way 963735356 in the Strava heatmap, and
there's very little in Strava in that area. It's possible the user did have
the heatmap open in iD but didn't trace all the routes from there. Some
might be 'local knowledge'.

I do make use of the strava heatmaps frequently to refine the route of
known tracks, especially if there's lots of tree cover and you can't see
the tracks too well in imagery.
10s or 100s of averaged GPS tracks is better than a single GPS track which
you might record yourself.

Adam



On Sun, 26 Feb 2023 at 18:24, Tom Brennan  wrote:

> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava
> heatmaps?
>
> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped by
> an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
>
> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La Nina!
>
> Example:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
>
> cheers
> Tom
> 
> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26 Feb 2023, at 10:19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Opal is also a gemstone, Australia being a leading source. It is also a fuel 
> in Australia ... but that would not be sold in shops but petrol stations.


in Germany OPAL is the name of a fibre optic internet access standard (infamous 
because it was rolled out in big areas but then not attached to the internet 
for decades) https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optische_Anschlussleitung

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Feb 26, 2023, 10:20 by 61sundow...@gmail.com:

>
> On 26/2/23 06:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
>
>> shop = opał → shop = fuel
>>
>
>
> Opal is also a gemstone, Australia being a leading source. It is also a fuel 
> in Australia ... but that would not be sold in shops but petrol stations.
>
note that it is not opal, it is opał with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%81 
at the end

>> shop=map -> shop=maps
>> or maybe it would be better to change in opposite direction?
>> it is not too late as it is a rarely used tag
>>
> There are few shops selling maps these days .. unfortunately.
>
still, managed to find and map two :)

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Tom Brennan]

Sorry, my bad! I should have linked the "track" on the other side of 
Whalania Creek:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/963735356

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

On 26/02/2023 8:20 pm, fors...@ozonline.com.au wrote:

Hi

Am I missing something? I looked at way 952248376 and found a user 
Pieseczek with 2 changesets and 4 new ways over a year old. If there was 
any reference to Strava heat maps then I missed it. Is there any 
indication whether Pieseczek is resident in Australia apart from the 
likely origin of the name?


If the ways are solely based on heatmaps, they should be deleted because 
they can not be ground truthed. But they appear to map ridge lines. Were 
they made from the satellite photos or contours? Ridge lines can be 
ground truthed and belong on OSM.


I agree with Cleary on mapping of illegal trails but that may not be 
relevant in this case.


Tony

Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava 
heatmaps?


I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped
by an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.

They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La
Nina!

Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[forster]

Hi

Am I missing something? I looked at way 952248376 and found a user  
Pieseczek with 2 changesets and 4 new ways over a year old. If there  
was any reference to Strava heat maps then I missed it. Is there any  
indication whether Pieseczek is resident in Australia apart from the  
likely origin of the name?


If the ways are solely based on heatmaps, they should be deleted  
because they can not be ground truthed. But they appear to map ridge  
lines. Were they made from the satellite photos or contours? Ridge  
lines can be ground truthed and belong on OSM.


I agree with Cleary on mapping of illegal trails but that may not be  
relevant in this case.


Tony


Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava heatmaps?

I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped
by an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.

They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known
bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a
track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La
Nina!

Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376

cheers
Tom

Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Warin]

On 26/2/23 06:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

I proposed some time ago to replace some surface values.

The initial script run was recently done, after waiting for a 
potential feedback.

Edit is documented at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/fixing_malformed_surface_tags

I propose to expand this by replacing also surface and shop tags 
listed below.
Shop edit would get own wiki documentation page, surface replacements 
would

be added to existing page and it would link to both discussions.

Please comment if any of proposed replacements are dubious in any way and
do not qualify for a replacement with an automated edit.
List previously was really short, this one is longer - let me know if 
either format is preferred.

Either way, I will not make any bot edits before 11 III in my time zone.
(I wait for about two weeks after proposing bot edits, as usual).





--





proposed migration of shop=* values:
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1rLI for current listing of objects - 1117 
right now



shop = opał → shop = fuel



Opal is also a gemstone, Australia being a leading source. It is also a 
fuel in Australia ... but that would not be sold in shops but petrol 
stations.









If you reached here: I have some question about shop values that I am NOT
proposing to edit right now.

shop=eggs -> shop=food food=eggs
maybe such migration would be a good idea?
having top value for every single shop type specializing in a given food
seems hopeless - we would need shop=pumpkin, shop=apples, shop=basil,
shop=pierogi...
That is nighmarish for data consumers.
If not shop=food - what would be a good shop value for myriad shops
selling some specific food, that are clearly neither restaurant nor 
fast foods?
Not all foods are as commonly sold in dedicated shop to get shop=rice 
or shop=cheese



??? produce=eggs ??? And there could be ??? sells=eggs???

I prefer produce as it can be used on more than shops.


shop=snacks -> shop=snack
or maybe it would be better to change in opposite direction?
it is not too late as it is a rarely used tag

shop=map -> shop=maps
or maybe it would be better to change in opposite direction?
it is not too late as it is a rarely used tag

There are few shops selling maps these days .. unfortunately.


shop=religious -> shop=religion
or is it not a safe replacement

shop=fireworks -> shop=pyrotechnics pyrotechnics=fireworks
maybe it would be clearly superior?



I'd leave is as fireworks - more easily translated? And more restrictive 
than pyrotechnics.




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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[Warin]

On 26/2/23 18:19, Tom Brennan wrote:
Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava 
heatmaps?


I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped 
by an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.


They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known 
bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a 
track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La 
Nina!


Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376




Remove them. Only 2 edits of a year ago .. You did leave a message for 
them a month ago, so unlikely to get a response now from the mapper.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Feb 25, 2023, 22:50 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Sat, 25 Feb 2023 at 19:08, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
>  wrote:
>
>> shop = Bag_shop → shop = bag
>>
>
> Is this a shop that sells bags, or "things by the bagfull"?
>
>> shop = watch → shop = watches
>>
>
> This could plausibly mean watch as in "monitor" - in other words
> "please watch for developments".
>
Not really convinced that either applies, but I will not replace them 
automatically and iff I will decide to use my hobby time in this way
I will ask people who added them what they intended (or change 
manually based on the context).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed automatic replacements of multiple surface=* and shop=* values (review welcomed!)

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Feb 25, 2023, 23:11 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> Am Sa., 25. Feb. 2023 um 22:07 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk <> 
> talk@openstreetmap.org> >:
>
>>
>>
>> So shop = laundromat → shop = laundry + self_service=yes would be needed?
>>
>
>
>
> it could be seen as equivalent, personally I would see a case for different 
> main tags because these are quite different features, better not intervene in 
> an automatic way (although admittedly there is 1000 times less usage for 
> laundromat one could also say that 40 laundromats are not worth discussing). 
> Maybe set up a proposal for laundromat? For 25% of all laundries there is 
> "self_service" information (and 85% of these are self service=yes which could 
> suggest that the default is self_service=no). I'd rather go for 
> amenity=laundromat (it has 7 uses now)
>
OK, I will not change this

> For 25% of all laundries there is "self_service" information 
> (and 85% of these are self service=yes which could suggest that the default 
> is 
> self_service=no)

Note that over 2900 self_service tags were added by StreetComplete
(checking distribution of this edits may give hint how many shop=laundry are 
laundromats)

See AddSelfServiceLaundry in 
https://piebro.github.io/openstreetmap-statistics/#6773___
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Re: [talk-au] Mapping tracks from Strava heatmap

[cleary]

I am not familiar with the use of heatmaps for mapping but, if it involves 
adding non-officlal trails, then I consider it potentially dangerous and not 
suitable for OSM.

I have a strong view that mappers and publishers of maps have a public safety 
responsibility. There should be nothing misleading and nothing likely to lead 
naive users into danger.  In New South Wales and most other places, national 
parks have management which assesses and identifies safe trails.

I consider that, in national parks and similar places, marked tracks should be 
shown in OSM but not tracks that may endanger map users (or endanger vulnerable 
plants or animals in wilderness areas).






On Sun, 26 Feb 2023, at 6:19 PM, Tom Brennan wrote:
> Do people have a view on the armchair mapping of tracks from Strava 
> heatmaps?
>
> I can see a bunch of tracks in Kanangra-Boyd NP that have been mapped by 
> an overseas mapper off Strava heatmap.
>
> They almost certainly don't exist on the ground. They are known 
> bushwalking routes (off track), but would be very unlikely to have a 
> track even in good times, let along after the fires and 3 years of La Nina!
>
> Example:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/952248376
>
> cheers
> Tom
> 
> Canyoning? try http://ozultimate.com/canyoning
> Bushwalking? try http://bushwalkingnsw.com
>
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