Re: [OSM-talk] Cyprous - postal codes

[Andrew Hain]

Jo  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think postcodes should go on roads. Either you add them addresses
or buildings as addr:postcode=..
> Or you create a boundary
(relation):http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3379414/history#map=13/50.8208/4.3755
> boundary=postal_code

There is a lot of advice on how to tag addresses at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Karlsruhe_Schema

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Re: [OSM-talk] Not attaching polygons to roads

[Andrew Hain]

Jean-Marc Liotier  liotier.org> 
writes:

> 
> On 26/02/2014 15:35, Martin 
Koppenhoefer wrote:
> > I am going even further by saying 
ideally a 
> > landuse=residential/industrial/
commercial/retail polygon should not 
> > incorporate any public road at all.
> 
> But then how do you tag named 
industrial or commercial zones ? In 
France 
> there are ZI "Zone Industrielle" or ZA 
'Zone d'Activité") which include 
> public ways.
> 

Use multipolygons.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Hate captchas!!!!

[Andrew Hain]

Richard Z.  gmail.com> writes:

> I need on average 4 captcha-reloads before I get a captcha picture which 
> I can recognise with good enough confidence to even try it.

You only have to type the right number for the distorted figures. You can
type whatever you like for the photograph.

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[OSM-talk] Image of the week

[Andrew Hain]

As has happened repeatedly recently, there is no image of the week well
after it should have gone lave and any suggestion at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Featured_image_proposals is bombarded
with criticism. I would like a discussion on where we go from here.

Do we want to keep the featured images?

Do you want to see a new picture promptly and reliably each Monday morning?

Should the image of the week get a higher profile? It used to be on the
community blogs, for example.

Should the image of the week be a community project or should it answer to
one of the working groups?

Does the process of selecting images need to be friendlier?

Should the image of the week continue to be maintained in the wiki or should
it be maintained somewhere else and just be displayed there?

What would make you be willing to suggest an image, maintain the page or
comment on the choice?

Are the suggested guidelines posted at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Featured_image_proposals#Draft_Guidelines
helpful?

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Re: [OSM-talk] City templates - Links OFF

[Andrew Hain]

Erick de Oliveira Leal  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> In the city template, links like below are off, how to edit this template
to not show this links?
>
http://tah.openstreetmap.org/MapOf/?lat=-15.7896&long=-47.8221&z=9&w=1280&h=1024&format=jpeg
> 
>
http://gazetteer.openstreetmap.org/namefinder/?find=parking+near+Distrito+Federal
> 
> 
>
http://random.dev.openstreetmap.org/no-names/?zoom=9&lat=-15.7896&lon=-47.8221&layers=0B000
> 
> 
>
http://www.fxfoo.com/osm/kml/web/web-osm-world-day-latest-v0-openlayers.html?lat=-15.7896&lon=-47.8221&zoom=9&layers=B0T
> 
> 
>
http://tile.openstreetmap.nl/coastlines.html?lon=-47.8221&lat=-15.7896&zoom=9&layers=B00T
> 
> 
> And this, does not aggregate any information, why it should be there? 
> 
>
http://tah.openstreetmap.org/MapOf/?lat=-15.7896&long=-47.8221&z=9&w=1280&h=1024&format=jpeg

If you follow the Edit tab on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/DF you will get a link
right at the bottom of the page called Templates used on this page. If you
expand the list you will see a link to Template:Pt-br:place, which is where
the links are. You can edit this template to get rid of the dead links.

One disadvantage of having specialised templates is that updates to the
Template:Place template are often not propagated and, although I recently
removed OpenStreetBugs from Template:Pt-br:place other links that are no
longer useful remain. There is a proposal at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Moresby/Description to replace
multiple language versions of the KeyDescription and ValueDescription
templates, which have similar problems, with a single set of templates for
all languages; it may be worthwhile doing something similar with the Place
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[OSM-talk] Peculiar mapping in Caracas

[Andrew Hain]

Zoom into http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/10.46900/-66.84900 and Bing
has nothing like it.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Come back Osmarender, all is forgiven!

[Andrew Hain]

SomeoneElse  mail.atownsend.org.uk> writes:

> There have however been some unintended consequences of the changes.  A 
> number of abandoned railways near me were edited from "abandoned" to 
> "disused"; I'm guessing that it might be because of the recent changes.  
> Changeset comments along the lines of "changed to X so that it renders" 
> and "I know we're not supposed to tag for the renderer but what's the 
> point in mapping a feature which then doesn't appear" are relatively 
common.

Have you talked to them or reverted their edits?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Adding Wikidata tags to 70k items automatically

[Andrew Hain]

Rob Nickerson  gmail.com> writes:

> Hi All,
> Lets just step back and reflect on this for a minute. I have reviewed the
replies on this mailing list and there are a mixture of supportive comments,
a few negatives and the remainder may suggest something but are neither
negative or positive.
> Lets look at the issues raised:
> 1. Licence compatibility
> Resolved in [1]
> 2. Accuracy of what's in Wikidata
> Remember it has to also match something in OSM. The tag enables people to
use wikidata to enhance their maps but this remains optional.
> 3. Keeping it up to date
> 
> An API rather than an import was suggested but this would not work with
existing tools (e.g Overpass) and we are adding wikidata tags to OSM anyway.
When ways are split in OSM mappers already have to deal with existing tags -
I don't see how this would be any different. Very few imports have a good
strategy to keep them up to date (this doesn't mean that we should continue
to turn a blind eye - just that we need to be fair to Edward's hard work)
> 
> 4. Bridges identified as a problem case
> 
> Suggest not automating bridges.
> 
> 5. OSM vs Wikidata/Wikimedia Commons"It will surely not call people to
contribute in OSM but rather directly in wikidata !"
> 
> On this last point we need to focus on what is best for OSM now and not
cloud our vision with any historic matters between OSM and Wikimedia
Commons. Our strategy is to:"create and distribute free geographic data ...
because most maps you think of as free actually have legal or technical
restrictions on their use, holding back people from using them in creative,
productive, or unexpected ways"
> 
> To me there are a few things that stand out:
> 
> * Create and distribute - We aim to build our contibutor base and grow our
user base. Working with the wikidata team will show that we are an open
community.
> * Geographic data - there are some parts that just don't suit OSM's model
(we even have a maximum character limit on tags), linking to wikidata would
help in this regard.
> 
> * Restrictions - We have our own restrictions (verifiable on the ground,
not changing to frequently) in OSM. A link to wikidata allows us to continue
with these restrictions but still allow people to get at interesting
non-geographic data.
> 
> * Unexpected ways - Links to wikidata open up a wealth of rich data
allowing new innovative ideas.
> 
> In my mind this is a good move and should be supported. Point 3 above
could be resolved by running the script regularly to see if there are any
new matches. There have also been some good suggestions on this list such as
a KeepRight style (i.e. QA) map where problematic objects (e.g. script finds
more than one match) can be manually reviewed, confirming whether the script
conflicts with any existing wikidata tags in OSM, checking whether the
script would add a wikidata tag to an object when there is already a
different object in OSM with that wikidata tag, and a check on the 400m
distance rule [2].
> 
> Are these things possible Edward?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Rob

Agreed.

Thank you Edward for your good work.

A few more points: This isn’t a deletionists’ charter and we shouldn’t rush
to unload any tagging onto Wikidata without discussing the removal very
carefully.

Is there any scope for a Maproulette or similar style challenge to fill in
matches that are too doubtful to import directly (such as slightly longer
distances or mismatched names, but otherwise good), perhaps? You can’t do
this with an API of course.

As a British mapper I see no reason to exclude my own country from the import.

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Re: [OSM-talk] 112k Wikidata tags to add to OSM

[Andrew Hain]

Edward Betts  4angle.com> writes:

> 
> Don't be alarmed, this is a work in progress. I'm not going to add any
> wikidata tags until we have reached a consensus.
> 

Is there an advantage deriving wikidata tags from existing wikipedia tags?

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Re: [OSM-talk] 112k Wikidata tags to add to OSM

[Andrew Hain]

Edward Betts  4angle.com> writes:

> 
> I adjusted my criteria for islands, villages, towns and cities.
> There are now 102,691 matches and 230 mismatches.
> 
> http://edwardbetts.com/osm-wikidata/
> 
> http://edwardbetts.com/osm-wikidata/mismatches.html
> 

How old are the datasets you are working from?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit to convert alt_name tags

[Andrew Hain]

Roland Olbricht  gmx.de> writes:


> 
> This underpins the two theses:
> 
> 1. The solution with ";" is far more established than the solution with 
> prefix "alt_name_".
> 
> 2. It is altogether a sometimes but not often used feature.

The TIGER import used name_n istead of alt_name_n.

Have any data consumers got a preference for one or the other?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit to convert alt_name tags

[Andrew Hain]

Andrew Buck  gmail.com> writes:

> However, since the conversion scripts have changed over time and since
> some work was done manually by others, we ended up using two slightly
> different forms for the alt_name field in the case where there are
> more than one alt_name for a given place.  Some use the form
> alt_name_2 and some use alt_name:2 (with the 2 extending to higher
> numbers as well, some of these places have as many as 6 or 7 alt_name
> entries).

Are some of these names actually names in different languages that should 
be tagged name:wo and so on?

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Re: [OSM-talk] keys with multiple values

[Andrew Hain]

Paul Norman  mac.com> writes:

> I believe with TIGER these were not alternate names, but different 
> names, none of which were clearly main or alternates in the data. It's 
> one of those things that makes raw TIGER data a pain to work with.
> 
> That situation is distinct from when you have a primary name and 
> multiple alternate names, although in practice many of the TIGER cases 
> had a primary name, or one of the alternate names wasn't really a name.

Alternative names in OSM come in two types: names to display (with tags such
as name:fr) and names to search for. Although a semicolon-separated list is
more logical in some ways than artificially separating into multiple tags,
it is makes a difference from searching alternative display names. 

> TIGER is also not where to look to for good tagging practices. For 
> various reasons, there were numerous problems with the tagging.

It was a learning experience. The red tape at the beginning of this
discussion is one of the legacies.

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[OSM-talk] New wiki page: Awards for OpenStreetMap

[Andrew Hain]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Awards_for_OpenStreetMap

Could anyone who knows more about any of the awards or one that I’ve left
out fill in the gaps.

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Re: [OSM-talk] MEP - pipelines

[Andrew Hain]

Lists  gimnechiske.org> writes:

> This should be the general rule for mechanical edits when migrating
tagging schemes.

Fair enough when there is a clear use that this fosters but it is unclear
whether that is true here. As a community we have to make sure that trolls
and others without our best interests at heart do not abuse our norms for
there own ends.

> Also make sure that editors such as Potlatch2, iD, JOSM and Merkaartor,
all have corrected their presets by the second date. If old scheme is stuck
in the preset than it is likely that old scheme will continue to be used.

Agreed. An example related to this is the continued type=* preset for trees
in iD.

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Re: [OSM-talk] MEP - pipelines

[Andrew Hain]

Rainer Fügenstein  oudeis.org> writes:

> are you referring to me and the pipeline proposal? if yes, I'll
> withdraw the MEP proposal, since I don't want to be a troll.

Sorry not to make myself clear. The comment was not aimed at you and I would
like to make clear that I support the mass edit that you are proposing and
want it to go ahead.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Change: How mature is OpenStreetMap?

[Andrew Hain]

Jo Walsh  fastmail.net> writes:

> 
> 
>  
> Attack is the best form of defence?
> Sorry, I don't have much sense of the OSM community as it currently
exists, and I just re-joined the list, where it seems like others leap in
with confrontational tone. It has been some years since I was actively
involved in OSM and i'm so glad that it's hitting the public radar in the
way that my Twitter feed seems to suggest.
> 
>  
> I don't mean to aggress or to show off, if that's how my suddenly
reappearing presence has come off; this is a genuine question for all of
those contributing suggestions to the list; water it up or down according to
extent of commitment. I just accidentally got a bit overcommitted to OSM.

Although lots of people have managed to do lots of constructive work the
past few months have been the most argumentative since the Australian clique
were at their worst as a cascade of long-running dissatisfactions have come
to the boil like dominoes. It’s time for everyone (including myself) to take
a deep breath, but we can’t just let frustrations build up again and we
really need to work on a stronger culture of harmony (we can have strong and
differing opinions of course) and not just a surface appearance; lurkers on
our communication channels aren’t the real audience.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?

[Andrew Hain]

Dave Corley  gmail.com> writes:

> Lastly, and I think this is important point. To quote the wiki header
". the project that creates and distributes free geographic data for the
world." Either this is a database of worldwide geodata or its not. There's
no half-way in that statement. Either all cultures, languages, countries,
people and the variety these elements bring in terms of tagging, is accepted
on a universal basis or its not. 

Thank you Dave. As a British mapper I am ashamed that some people want to
make the map of my country less useful, and not only to Russian speakers a
long way away.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue

[Andrew Hain]

Mike Thompson  gmail.com> writes:

> The issue is that some streets that are not one way in OSM data, are
rendered as one way by Craigslist.
> 
> If you go to this ad and zoom in on the map you will see the arrows
designating one way streets, for example on Cliffrose Way
(https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/170048276):
> https://fortcollins.craigslist.org/gms/4991940913.html
> Here is the approximate area on the default OSM map:
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/40.51930/-104.85951
> 
> 
> I looked at the data and all of the streets in question seem to be tagged
"oneway=no". Admittedly this tag is rather superfluous in these cases - or
at least I believe it is, I am not the one that added it, but it shouldn't
be interpreted as indicating a one way street.

Does Craigslist also get oneway=-1 (traffic opposite to the direction of the
way) wrong?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Craigslist OpenStreetMap Rendering Issue

[Andrew Hain]

Warin <61sundowner  gmail.com> writes:

> Or oneway=1, -1 reverse, true, 
reversible 

The tag oneway=true is extinct in the 
database.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New road style for Default Map style - pull requested is opened

[Andrew Hain]

Mateusz Konieczny  gmail.com> writes:

> 
> https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1736 - 
review
> of the code and comments are welcome.

We have a great opportunity for a spot of promotion. Publish a post 
on our blog announcing the new style and explaining the reasoning 
behind it. Don’t forget to remind people that there’s a wide variety 
of map styles out there that you can even write your own style.

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[OSM-talk] List of OSM-based services

[Andrew Hain]

As part of an article on the diversity of OSM-based mapping I’m 
looking to check if the list at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM-based_services is up 
to date, including sites and especially map styles that may not have 
been noted.

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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Andrew Hain]

Dave F.  madasafish.com> writes:

> 
> Hi
> 
> Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM 
contributors & 
> therefore should be a clear & concise as possible, I'm curious why 
this 
> icon is so
> prevalent:
> 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv
g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png 
> 
> There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers 
purely 
> to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that. 
Even 
> if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags 
are 
> based on a key=value format.

The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a 
tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No 
image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the 
{{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could 
have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one.

> In a similar vein I notice a few wiki pages concerning tagging 
have XML 
> OSM database code. Completely unnecessary & again, might put off 
users 
> who believe you have to have programming experience to contribute.

Where?

> Dave F.



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[OSM-talk] Map key

[Andrew Hain]

I am having a look at the map key for the standard layer and I am finding a
number of loose ends.

One obvious issue is that the key is sometimes out of date: for instance it
distinguishes between forest and wood but the style sheet no longer does so.

The key talks about trunk, primary and secondary roads but this is just OSM
database keywords left exposed; these words have local meanings in some
countries that OSM differs from. It might be better to have an entry for
main roads using as many colours as are displayed at the zoom level in a
single row, which among other things saves space on mobile devices.

We also have an opportunity to add some more entries for further features
and to sort important stuff to the top.

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[OSM-talk] Map Features usefulness, usability and maintainability

[Andrew Hain]

The Map Features page is a long standing page on the wiki linked from its
left sidebar and it has been translated into a large number of languages.

Unfortunately there are clear signs of difficulties of maintenance. Tags are
regularly added with the wrong wiki variable copied and pasted that makes
the description for a tag wrong in languages other than English until
someone notices. Versions of the page in some languages have message boxes
saying that parts of the page are out of date because page authors didn’t
follow the intended structure. There is no way to link from the main columns
to tag documentation that is newly created in the current language without
updating the link manually; trying to do so from tag descriptions has had
awkward side effects. Currently the page is not fully rendered in three
languages with a fourth that is only complete because one of the templates
has been removed.

It may be practical to sit down and strip back some of the accumulation of
edits by a large number of different people that have added up to where we
are now or to take on board new wiki technologies such as Lua scripting. But
before we do that I think it’s worthwhile to think about what we actually
need: whether the page should look the way it does, whether it belongs on
the wiki, how we can keep it up to date and indeed whether other sources of
documentation are actually more useful.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How to handle Maps.Me garbage?

[Andrew Hain]

Andy Townsend  gmail.com> 
writes:

> Because of the language difference I 
suspect that the chance of a reply 
> from this MAPS.ME user will be less than 
from others (unless you try an 
> address them in Korean - but that really 
isn't difficult these days with 
> machine translation).
> 
> I've certainly had replies from MAPS.ME 
users in the UK, including 
> someone doing similar things (in Danish 
- I commented on the changeset 
> in English and Danish).

Is there a potential to prepare welcoming 
responses to common problems in Korean or 
Chinese?

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[OSM-talk] International mapping getting together day

[Andrew Hain]

Any interest in organising a distributed mapping party where we get together 
round the world, attracting armchair mappers who haven't experienced field 
mapping or just people with a casual interest? It could be a chance to promote 
ourselves as the full extent of our project or we could have a particular topic 
that we attract mapping of.


This would take a little time to get organised, maybe even into 2017.


--

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Re: [OSM-talk] Destructive new 'contributor'

[Andrew Hain]

You could put a note on the map in New Orleans saying what you think needs 
checking locally.
--
Andrew

From: Dave F 
Sent: 22 January 2017 10:50:19
To: OSM Talk
Subject: [OSM-talk] Destructive new 'contributor'

Hi

Some one from China has made some meaningless & erroneous edit in
Bristol, UK which I've reverted, but there's one in New Orleans which
someone with local knowledge needs to look at.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/45365148#map=11/29.9244/-90.2323

Is there someone here who can repost to Talk-US?

On side note: Do users of editors like mapswithme receive changeset
comments?

DaveF.

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Re: [OSM-talk] "NRCS basic OSM training" - low quality changesets in Nepal

[Andrew Hain]

Have you tried politely making changeset comments asking this?

--
Andrew

From: Michał Brzozowski 
Sent: 18 June 2017 21:32:16
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] "NRCS basic OSM training" - low quality changesets in Nepal

There has been a number of users making very low quality edits
(lowercase names, wrong tags. geometry problems among others) in
Nepal. They all use this mysterious changeset description: "NRCS basic
OSM training"
If this is training, then the instructor clearly has no OSM expertise required.
The mappers seem to make similar errors: misusing tags in addr:*
namespace, making up amenity=* tags, starting names from lower case.

Example changesets:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49631971
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/49627019

You can see all of them around Nepal in WHODIDIT, I discovered half a
dozen of users, there may be more. They have quite high edit volume
and most of their edits need attention.

http://simon04.dev.openstreetmap.org/whodidit/index.html?zoom=13&lat=27.63347&lon=85.3243&layers=BTT

Can we pin down who trains these mappers and demand them to stop and
take corrective action?

Michał

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Re: [OSM-talk] Has anyone cracked the code yet?

[Andrew Hain]

Are there ever single character comments by users who are logged In? If so, has 
anyone asked them what website or program they were using at the time?

--
Andrew

From: ajt1...@gmail.com 
Sent: 09 July 2017 10:28:37
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Has anyone cracked the code yet?

Over the last few months there have been lots of single-character note
comments - initially in China and Russia, but recently more widespread
(see for example http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/369774 ).  The
single-character comments seem to include cyrillic characters, which may
suggest that they're related to the Russian-language "bridge detector"
that adds notes such as http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/1056574 , but
it's difficult to see why someone's adding these note comments.

Related, there's an issue raised over at github about the wider issue of
allowing anonymous note comments
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/1543 (not
specifically just these).

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what benefit there might be to
someone adding these?  About the only thing that I can come up with is
that it's an OSM API test - people clone a project and run it, and the
result is these notes (a bit like the OsmApi "My First Test" nodes that
keep appearing near "null island").

Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

[Andrew Hain]

While you can do that, it diminishes one of our most important offers, that we 
have a map of the whole world.

--
Andrew

From: ajt1...@gmail.com 
Sent: 20 August 2017 11:46:28
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Highway=trunk : harmonization between countries ?

On 20/08/2017 11:36, djakk djakk wrote:
>
> Why I want to do that ? To improve openstreetmap, this is a worldwide
> map and the renderer can't be adapted by countries.
>

Sure it can - it's perfectly possible for a render to use a
location-sensitive rendering (I've just done it myself).

Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Andrew Hain]

Presumably it means something like the 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:odbl%3Dclean tag. It may not be as much 
use hete though.
--
Andrew

From: Nicolás Alvarez 
Sent: 27 August 2017 20:01:16
To: Frederik Ramm
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap; talk...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by 
user chdr

I don't understand what people mean with 'verifying' objects. We're
not trying to find factually-incorrect data. The data is legally
tainted. It's questionable whether looking at the current names
imported from GMaps, comparing to another source, seeing they match
and marking them as "verified" will legally change anything. And it's
impossible to know if people are really verifying anything or just
blindly marking them as verified.

I think the only clean way to solve this is to redact and then re-map
from legal sources.

--
Nicolás

2017-08-27 14:39 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm :
> Steve:
>
> thank you for your work. I'll save your list. It appears that others
> might be eager to do the same, maybe we can find a good workflow for
> that. I wasn't expecting the community to start working on this
> pre-redaction but if people prefer that to fixing issues later, it is of
> course an option. I certainly prefer out-of-band "marking" of verified
> objects to adding a new tag to each!
>
> Tod:
>
> On 08/27/2017 07:31 PM, Tod Fitch wrote:
>> When you reviewed Orange County, how did you do it so quickly? The only way 
>> I know to go through this is looking at each one, one at a time.
>
> I could of course make a page with links to the ways, even per county if
> that helps, or we could upload the list to some suitable tool. Ian
> mentioned MapRoulette but I'm not sure if that would make things easier.
> I'm certainly happy to try. Maybe Martijn would like to chip in about
> MapRoulette?
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Andrew Hain]

There was a script during the licence change that assessed whether or not 
changes to names were copyrightable.

--
Andrew

From: Mikel Maron 
Sent: 27 August 2017 19:51:05
To: Greg Morgan; Martijn van Exel
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap; Steve Friedl; Tod Fitch; talk...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by 
user chdr

> we can find a good workflow for that. I wasn't expecting the community to 
> start working on this pre-redaction but if people prefer that to fixing 
> issues later...

Absolutely, let's do this!

Also, Frederik, I think your script picked up false positives. Spot checked in 
DC, and these are expansions of both the street and the quadrant ("St NW" -> 
"Street Northwest"(. Can we fix the script and regen the list?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109419946/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109431926/history
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/109431927/history

-Mikel


* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


On Sunday, August 27, 2017 2:45 PM, Greg Morgan  wrote:




On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:55 AM, Martijn van Exel 
mailto:mart...@openstreetmap.us>> wrote:
Happy to help. All we'd need for MapRoulette is a list of locations and a 
proper description of the work we'd expect people to do. Anyone can create the 
challenge but I'd be happy to do it.
Martijn

Martijn,

I'd would be great if you can break this down to an area.  For example, I have 
a list of Arizona streets.  I'd prefer to work on this as an Arizona challenge 
verses one big chdr challenge.

Please Advise,
Greg

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by user chdr

[Andrew Hain]

How much use are you making of tools developed for identifying contributions to 
be redacted in the licence change?

--
Andrew

From: Frederik Ramm 
Sent: 28 August 2017 13:43:44
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap; talk...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Redacting 75, 000 street names contributed by 
user chdr

Hi,

On 08/27/2017 08:51 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:
> Also, Frederik, I think your script picked up false positives. Spot
> checked in DC, and these are expansions of both the street and the
> quadrant ("St NW" -> "Street Northwest"(. Can we fix the script and
> regen the list?

I have modified my "name equality rule" to consider "N" equal to "North"
etc., also it will ignore case, whitespace, and as before the usual
street type expansions (St->Street etc).

This brings the number of problematic objects down by around 5500, and
practically all of them are in the US. However, I noticed that I forgot
to account for "Saint"->"St", and will re-do the numbers yet again
before publishing an updated list.

I think the best course of action would be:

1. Wait a while, until various communities (potentially pointed to this
conversation via the widely-read weekly new roundup) have had the time
to check whether my automated assessment of which names count as
"contributed" by chdr is correct. Mikel has found the issue above and I
fixed it; it is quite possible that there are others.

2. Run the redaction, and remove all names contributed by chdr. At
present it looks as if less than 10% of these objects had a different
name before; more than 90% had not name at all. Perhaps it is indeed
best to remove the name in these cases as well instead of reverting to
the old name.

3. Load the IDs of all affected objects in a MapRoulette task or
similar, so people can check the names by survey, or from different
sources. (I assume that, as Simon pointed out, open data will not be
available for all countries affected. I fear that, with MapRoulette
geared towards armchair mapping, there might be a temptation for people
to yet again fill in the blanks from inadmissible sources. Maybe we
should limit the use of MapRoulette to countries where we know that open
sources exist, and use fixme tags or notes for other countries?)

I think that would be cleaner than verifying the names ahead of time.
Also it would create an audit trail - from the object history, you could
then see that the name was removed for copyright reasons, and you could
then see that user XYZ has added a new name. If it should later turn out
that this name was also copied from an indadmissible source, we know
that user XYZ is at fault, whereas people creating lists with
independently verified names is not something that would give us such a
recording.

I must apologize for not having given a time frame in my initial email;
there's absolutely no reason to panic. This matter has been sitting idle
for years, and a few more weeks won't kill us. We can sort this out
calmly and then do the right thing.

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Andrew Hain]

It is now time to talk about banning Verdy p from the wiki permanently.

His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net negative value.

It is exceptionally difficult to correct any mistake that he makes and as a 
result people have cut down their contributions to the wiki or given up 
completely.

He likes to tell people that they have made mistakes without trying to teach 
them what he thinks they did wrong and obfuscates changes with mass 
reformatting. It is often unclear whether he is addressing a problem that 
actually exists.

He often projects his own personality deficiencies onto other people.

Even in the current case where there is software that could be made more 
flexible, he only offers handwaving rather than assistance.

--
Andrew

From: weeklyteam 
Sent: 28 October 2017 08:47:48
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

The weekly round-up of OSM news, issue # 379,
is now available online in English, giving as always a summary of all things 
happening in the openstreetmap world:

http://www.weeklyosm.eu/en/archives/9571/

Enjoy!

weeklyOSM?
who?: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WeeklyOSM#Available_Languages
where?: 
https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/weeklyosm-is-currently-produced-in_56718#2/8.6/108.3
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Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

[Andrew Hain]

It is not only his language ability that he overestimates. His Mediawiki 
programming has a cargo cult flavour and he has a fetish for links going to the 
“right” place 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Iotw_text/2017-43&diff=1516878&oldid=1516754
 being a typical recent example) that he takes as far as special cases in 
templates just to satisfy it, this was the root of the current calendar 
argument.

--
Andrew

From: Richard 
Sent: 30 October 2017 13:10:49
To: Tobias Knerr
Cc: talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] weeklyOSM #379 2017-10-17-2017-10-23

On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 12:13:14AM +0100, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> On 28.10.2017 12:06, Andrew Hain wrote:
> > His behaviour over the past years makes him a contributor of net
> > negative value.
>
> I have to disagree here. He's probably the single most active wiki
> contributor, and is also performing a lot of useful maintenance work
> that no one else would bother doing.

Agree.
At the same time, exactly as he is a respected and experienced
contributor the cost of every single missstep is disproportionately
higher than if "gaer3jfkk4ej555_I_want_to_fuck_OSM" does it.

An exceptionally high self esteem regarding foreign language skills
does not help either. ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/escada/diary/40120 )

> This does not mean that he should be exempt from the rules, of course.
> To the contrary: What I would hope for is consistent enforcement of the
> rules, with gradually increasing penalties. Jumping straight from spotty
> enforcement to a permanent ban, though, seems wasteful and needlessly cruel.

Rules can help - if they can be enforced by simple technical means. For some
contributors lets say a limit like
* 2 edits to a single page within 14 days
* 5 edits to talk pages per 7 days
* 1 revert per 14 days

Nothing personal but very few people here have the time to follow
dozens of changesets so this would help a lot.

Maybe for some contributors a personal blacklist banning every edit with
the word "you" in every language and declination can help.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?

[Andrew Hain]

I would suggest that this is part of a wider malaise that the mission of the 
wiki has become unclear.

--
Andrew

From: Roland Olbricht 
Sent: 04 December 2017 08:42:46
To: osm-talk
Subject: [OSM-talk] Wiki Proposals: An OSM Echo Chamber?

Hi all,

We recently had an experienced and productive community member, Ilya,
putting a lot of time in a Wiki Proposal just to see the whole process
fail. Given the feedback from the process, this has been due to a whole
bunch of hard-to-control problems
- the whole thing has been too complex
- the wording did cause misunderstandings
- attempt to discuss the matter in an unsuitable medium

If even an experienced member cannot handle the process then we should
reconsider whether the process of Wiki Proposals makes sense at all.

I suggest to replace the Proposal process by three more specialized
and therefore much simpler processes. They are structured by what they
can affect.

In particular, the discussion should go to better suited places than the
infamous Wiki page discussion shadow pages:

Ilya complained that at the wiki discussion page turned into a complete
mess of "56K text". I do agree that the wiki page is a hard-to-read
mess, but yet it has only the content of 10-30 messages.
There had even been expressed deprecation that the discussion spilled
into the voting section because it is so difficult to read.

For comparison: My mail client currently handles more than 100'000
messages and is still fast and comfortable to use. Even in the forum
where users are stuck with what the web interface allows, it is easy to
have discussions with some hundred responses.

This should remind us that the wiki discussion facility is unsuited for
any nontrivial discussion but it disguises as sufficient discussion
facility.

Note that on the same time there is a group of 350 community members
who have indicated to be interested in public transport. Ilya stated as
a reson that the corresponding mailing list has "less than 3 messages"
per month. The content equivalence of "3 messages" on a wiki discussion
page already would make the impression of a heated discussion.
Apparently the wiki discussion pages have distracted him from the real
audience.

Please note:
It does not make sense to discuss the redesign of one communication
channel in another communication channel. But the wiki does not have a
suitable place to discuss the issue. Hence I cross-post to the forum to
at least reach also a large portion of the less tech-savvy community
members.

I suggest the following three specialized replacements for the Proposal
process:

=== Distinguished Documentation ===

OSM could profit in a lot of cases from a good how-to map for particular
subjects. But at the same time exists poor documentation and people do
not necessary know which to trust. Writing a good documentation will
become more rewarding if we can offer a process to indicate general
acclaim and distinguish excellent documentation.

The voting confirms that the claims of the documentation reflect actual
mapping practice. That way, it makes the effort a distinguished
documentation.

It des not affect any existing wiki pages.
It does not affect the OSM database.

=== Wiki Cleanup ===

Amongst the real problems of OSM is that our wiki documentation has lots
of poorly maintained pages. There exist even contradictions between
different pages. For an unexperienced users it is difficult to figure
out which wiki pages are really applicable.

We need a decision process which of the contradictive statements can be
discarded. The hurdles should not be too high because we generally do
have too few maintenance of the wiki content. Nonetheless, as this does
give some rulesets a spin in favour of others, it should be subject to a
voting.

There should be left a success notice after the cleanup has actually
been done.

The document must state which wiki pages are considered authoriative.
It should state which wiki pages are to be changed.
It can list the used tags, tagging combinations, or data constellations
that are in scope of the document at all.
It should state which used tags, tagging combinations, or data
constellations will after the change newly contradict the wiki.

Affects the wiki.
Does not affect the OSM database.

=== Tag Disambiguation ===

Sometimes different people tag different types of objects with the same
tags. This is a problem because you do no longer know what is really
there. It is the core concern of the old Proposal process.
Given that backwards compatbility is nowadays an important virtue,
the preferred solution is to add an extra tag to distinguish the
different situations.

The voting is to check that the disambiguation is logically sound
and that it covers the vast majority of applicable constellations.

Affects the wiki: the description of the affected tags and tag
combinations are changed.
Affect the OSM database: mappers are adviced to systematically change
tags in the course of lo

Re: [OSM-talk] OSM data, how can we contribute to keep it to a reasonable size?

[Andrew Hain]

Or a mass change from Name=Untitled Polygon (wasteful but not wrong) to 
name=Untitled Polygon.

--
Andrew

From: Mark Wagner 
Sent: 18 January 2018 19:07:20
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OSM data, how can we contribute to keep it to a 
reasonable size?

On Thu, 18 Jan 2018 19:44:47 +0100
Oleksiy Muzalyev  wrote:

> Imre,
>
> It is very good and surprising idea.
>
> I discovered on the page "Error categories" a tool
> https://www.keepright.at/ with the help of which I found already
> dozens obviously misspelled tags. It functions quite intuitively,
> just select "misspelled tags" check box and move the map to an area
> of interest.

But make sure they're really misspelled.  I recently saw a change that
fixed a dozen instances where the key "brand" was misspelled as "band"
-- except that one of the "band" tags was correct, describing the fact
that a radio antenna operated in the two-meter band.

--
Mark

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Re: [OSM-talk] diversity-talk: No such list

[Andrew Hain]

According to the Wayback Machine the last message was posted early in 2015.

--
Andrew


From: Sérgio V. 
Sent: 17 February 2018 19:56:57
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] diversity-talk: No such list

Hi, I've just realized that in the

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity
at the bottom, /Resources,

there's no such link to

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/diversity-talk

If you click there , or search for it, it returns "No such list diversity-talk".

Is it still alive?


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs

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Re: [OSM-talk] diversity-talk: No such list

[Andrew Hain]

Hopefully anyone who revives the topic will find a way to avoid the 
circumstances of the original list’s demise.


--

Andrew



From: Rory McCann 
Sent: 19 February 2018 09:47
To: Sérgio V.; talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] diversity-talk: No such list

Shame that it's gone. It's nice to be able to contact people in OSM who
are interested in diversity.

GMane, which is a mailing list-to-NNTP service still seems to be still
up and hosting it as a newsgroup, so you can post messages to that
newsgroup.

On 17/02/18 20:56, Sérgio V. wrote:
> Hi, I've just realized that in the
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity
Diversity - OpenStreetMap Wiki
wiki.openstreetmap.org
How can we increase diversity in OSM? Gender; Sexuality; Race/ethnicity; 
Disability; Age; Religion; Class; Region; Language; other? Discussions 
within/about OSM


> at the bottom, /Resources,
>
> there's no such link to
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/diversity-talk
>
> If you click there , or search for it, it returns "No such list
> diversity-talk".
>
> Is it still alive?
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-cde84d7490f0863c7a0b0d0a420834ebd467c1214318167d0f9a39f25a44d6bd.png]

smaprs | OpenStreetMap
www.openstreetmap.org
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.




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[OSM-talk] Fw: Nominatim on the main page

[Andrew Hain]

From: Andrew Hain 
Sent: 19 February 2018 21:50
To: Sarah Hoffmann
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim on the main page


It’s unfortunate that a new user mapping mistake has such unfortunate 
consequences.


--

Andrew



From: Sarah Hoffmann 
Sent: 19 February 2018 09:17
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Nominatim on the main page

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 08:12:45PM +0100, Maarten Deen wrote:
> On 2018-02-18 20:07, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Maarten Deen 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 2018-02-18 19:28, Tom Hughes wrote:
>
> > > I can't comment about how the algorithm works because I don't know
> > > anything about it. I'm just saying that we do tell it the viewbox
> >
> >  It appears to me that the bounding box is used when searching places
> > (towns, cities) or streets, but not when searching objects like shops
> > or restaurants.
> > For instance, searching for a McDonald's always gives me the
> > McDonald's at 1351, George Dieter Drive, El Paso City, El Paso County,
> > Texas, 79936, Verenigde Staten van Amerika

To fix that please delete all the wikipedia=McDonalds tags from
the McDonalds restaurants that show up inappropriately. Nominatim uses
the wikipedia links to determine how well known a place might be and
ranks places with a wikipedia tag higher. That naturally only works
when the wikipedia tags actually link to a wikipedia page that
describes the object. It leads to funny results when the link goes
to category pages or, like in this case, to the company description.

Alternatively: I've proposed a GSoC to overhaul the Wikipedia
importances that Nominatim uses. Getting rid of this particular
problem from the Nominatim side would be part of this job.

For more information, see:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Google_Summer_of_Code/2018/Project_Ideas#Nominatim

There are also two other topics proposed and if you have another particular
itch you want to sratch, there are surely ways they can be transformed into
a GSoC topic. Just send me a email or open an issue in github. It would be 
wonderful, if
we find some students interested in geocoding this year.

Kind regards

Sarah

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

[Andrew Hain]

Interesting idea. The wiki dates from before OAuth of course, even before the 
fiddle we implemented for trac and the forum. It must be just about the only 
internal communication space not using the main accounts.


--

Andrew



From: Richard 
Sent: 18 March 2018 19:45
To: James
Cc: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list
Subject: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 11:18:38AM +, James wrote:
> You could also argue the opposite way: Not everyone in OSM edits the wiki,
> thus probably doesnt have an account, thus to participate, they need to
> create an account to vote

fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?

I have recent reports from one mapper sending me messages through OSM messaging
that he had trouble setting up a wiki account and commenting on my talk page so
clearly there is some confusion about the accounts and by my estimate only a 
tiny
minority of mappers could ever have any use for separate mapping and wiki
accounts.

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

[Andrew Hain]

You could say that every existing edit is by an “old” account and new ones 
going forwards are by main site accounts which occasionally have the same name. 
Perhaps you could link some of the old wiki accounts to the OSM user names 
where they are known to be the same person.


--

Andrew



From: Nicolás Alvarez 
Sent: 19 March 2018 04:51
To: osm-talk
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Unify Mapping and wiki accounts? -- WAS: Vote cheating?

El 18 mar. 2018, a la(s) 20:50, François Lacombe 
mailto:fl.infosrese...@gmail.com>> escribió:


2018-03-19 0:38 GMT+01:00 Michael Kugelmann 
mailto:michaelk_...@gmx.de>>:
Am 18.03.2018 um 20:45 schrieb Richard:
fundamental decission - maybe osm and osm-wiki accounts should be the same?
This had been independent in the very old history. And now you have conflicts 
=> will not work w/o huge effort...
There had been requests like this 5 years ago or so w/o success. Not because 
nobody wanted to implement but because it was not possible.

This is a great idea.

Can you sum up what are the technical issues which make it not possible please ?

Suppose user 'John' currently has a wiki account called 'JohnW'. That's 
currently possible, since the accounts are independent. What do you do if you 
unify the accounts? Does OSM user John get a new wiki account called John? What 
if that wiki account already exists? Or does he have to manually connect the 
OSM and Wiki accounts?

What if an OSM user called JohnW also exists (but never used the wiki yet), 
what wiki account do you create for him if the name JohnW is already taken on 
the wiki?

Users can rename OSM accounts. What happens if a user has accounts on both OSM 
and the wiki, with the same name, but changes his user name to "Javiersanp"? 
That name isn't taken in OSM, but it's taken in the wiki. Does the rename get 
rejected?

There are different OSM users "nicolas" and "Nicolas". Wiki usernames always 
have a uppercase first letter, so if accounts get unified, those two different 
OSM users can't get different wiki accounts. There is a similar problem with 
the wiki considering " " (space) and "_" (underscore) equivalent, while OSM 
doesn't.


I would love it if wiki accounts and OSM accounts were unified, but that would 
need to be done since the start. Now it seems too hard to do it; too many 
conflicts with existing accounts.

--
Nicolás
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[OSM-talk] External contact channels and GDPR

[Andrew Hain]

When we ask mappers to discuss controversial edits or imports is it ever 
acceptable under GDPR to direct people to a contact channel that is not 
directly run by the OSMF?

--
Andrew
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Re: [OSM-talk] External contact channels and GDPR

[Andrew Hain]

The issue would be that we are asking someone to trust an external provider. At 
worst we could be responsible for propagating their noncompliance with the GDPR.

--
Andrewm

From: Kathleen Lu 
Sent: 16 April 2018 23:11:11
To: Andrew Hain
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] External contact channels and GDPR

Hi Andrew,
It's not clear to me why GDPR would make it unacceptable in general to ask 
someone to discuss something, whether a controversial edit or not, in one forum 
or another, OSMF or not. What would be the concern?
-Kathleen


On Mon, Apr 16, 2018 at 9:18 PM Andrew Hain 
mailto:andrewhain...@hotmail.co.uk>> wrote:
When we ask mappers to discuss controversial edits or imports is it ever 
acceptable under GDPR to direct people to a contact channel that is not 
directly run by the OSMF?

--
Andrew
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[OSM-talk] Tool to change dual carriageway to sinjle preserving route relations?

[Andrew Hain]

Is there a tool that preserves bus route relations properly whlle correcting a 
road currently mapped as dual carriageway to predominantly single carriageway?

--
Andrew
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Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

[Andrew Hain]

One of OSM’s strengths is, or should be, that we are a truly worldwide map. 
Multilingual names are part of this. Excluding actual names from the map 
database as “ought not” is no different from omitting casinos in a stand 
against gambling or leaving the road number of the high street in your town off 
the map.

It is unfortunate that a few people have sought to limit the contribution of 
names by our mappers.

--
Andrew

From: Andy Mabbett 
Sent: 29 June 2018 12:21:06
To: OSM talk mailing list
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] WMF: "Interactive maps, now in your language"

On 29 June 2018 at 11:57, Simon Poole  wrote:

>> On 29.06.2018 12:18, Andy Mabbett wrote:

>>> New Wikimedia Foundation blog post:
>>>
>>>
>>> https://blog.wikimedia.org/2018/06/28/interactive-maps-now-in-your-language/

> they should not be calling for their users to vandalize OSM.

Nor are they.

I expected some negativity in response to this remarkable good news;
but this hyperbolic response is beyond acceptable.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Why the HOT obsession with low quality buildings in Africa ?

[Andrew Hain]

Generally, of course, yes, but there was a talk by someone who had estimated 
the population of a seasonally inhabited village by mapping buildings that are 
demolished each year.

--
Andrew

From: Jean-Marc Liotier 
Sent: 02 July 2018 15:25:38
To: Vao Matua
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org; HOT Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Why the HOT obsession with low quality buildings 
in Africa ?

On Mon, July 2, 2018 2:59 pm, Vao Matua wrote:
> When you say "low quality" buildings, do you mean the quality of the
> polygon data or are you judging someone's home to be of low value?

The tracing of course - mud shacks and posh villas are all equal before
Openstreetmap contributors !


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Re: [OSM-talk] proposed mechanical edit - moving FIXME=* to fixme=*

[Andrew Hain]

Should we ask for validation steps in editors to flag FIXME as a likely tagging 
mistake going forwards?

--
Andrew

From: Mateusz Konieczny 
Sent: 02 July 2018 18:42
To: Talk
Subject: [OSM-talk] proposed mechanical edit - moving FIXME=* to fixme=*

fixme tag is a standard way to mark fixmes.
Editors wishing to finish mapping in their area would (directly or
indirectly, for example using JOSM) look through objects tagged with
fixme tags.

FIXME tag is an unexpected way to mark fixmes, retagging this duplicate to
fixme key would improve tagging without any information loss.

It would make development of QA tools easier as authors would not need to
discover and implement support for this duplicated key.

Between X and Y objects are expected to be edited. See
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/FIXME#map for a
geographic distribution.

Changeset would be split into small areas to avoid continent-sized
bounding boxes. As this tag may be on extremely large objects (for example 
relations representing long routes) it may be unavoidable to make some edits 
with very large bounding boxes.

For documentation page see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/moving_FIXME_to_fixme
For documentation of my previous proposals (including both proposals
that failed to be approved and approved ones) see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account

Please comment - especially if there are any problems with this idea.
Please also comment if you support this edit, in case of no response
at all edit will not be made as there would be no evidence that
this idea is supported.
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Re: [OSM-talk] API a lot slower?

[Andrew Hain]

Will there be a local team or does whatever can’t be done remotely need a visit?

--
Andrew

From: Grant Slater 
Sent: 17 July 2018 13:55:05
To: Daniel Koć
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] API a lot slower?

On 17 July 2018 at 13:42, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> W dniu 17.07.2018 o 12:22, Grant Slater pisze:
>> Our primary hardware is moving to a new data centre next week, and
>> will take some time to get up and running.
>
> What data center do you mean? Is it the one which OSMF was looking for
> at the beginning of the year?
>
> https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2018/02/19/osmf-request-for-proposals-data-centre-2018/
>
> Could you give some more details about it?
>

Yes. We are moving some core servers to an Equinix data centre in Amsterdam, NL.

OpenStreetMap's Brexit ;-) 

Kind regards,

Grant
Part of the OSM Operations team.

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Re: [OSM-talk] anonymous notes spam?

[Andrew Hain]

Can we find out what software is being used to send these notes?

--
Andrew

From: Doug Hembry 
Sent: 20 July 2018 14:26:13
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] anonymous notes spam?

Yes. In the San Francisco Bay Area. Single letters "f", "k", and "l".
Example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/778721#map=15/37.5009/-122.3032&layers=N
BTW, is there a simple way to delete such note comments?

On 7/20/2018 2:32 AM, maning sambale wrote:
> I'm getting several single letter notes comments since yesterday.
> Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/562375
> Are people noticing the same?
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Lua modules are here: Improving OSM wiki templates

[Andrew Hain]

It would be interesting to know how much of the problem is because of the large 
number of languages tested, many with no pages on the wiki written in that 
language.

--
Andrew

From: mmd 
Sent: 29 July 2018 19:37:04
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Lua modules are here: Improving OSM wiki templates

Am 29.07.2018 um 14:57 schrieb Yuri Astrakhan:
> * Much better performance compared with wiki template language

Sounds great. One of the major pain points on many Wiki pages is the
whole topic around Language / LanguageSwitch templates.

Verdy_p has written a lengthy analysis of the current situation, which
I'm mostly unable to follow as I'm not really familiar with Mediawiki
internals:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Verdy_p#Performance_impact_due_to_translation_templates

Maybe someone more knowledgeable than myself could take a look, if it is
worthwhile throwing in some Lua for better performance in this case, or
maybe trying something different.

Thanks!

--





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Re: [OSM-talk] highway=* + area=yes vs area:highway=*

[Andrew Hain]

The wiki has definitely had problems recently and we should have a good 
discussion about what we want from it.

--
Andrew

From: Paul Johnson 
Sent: 10 August 2018 18:13:36
To: Tomasz Wójcik
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] highway=* + area=yes vs area:highway=*

Sounds fine by me.  Seems there's a decent sized contingency working the wiki 
independently of how things are actually tagged anymore, it's been getting hard 
to point to the wiki as a usable reference for a couple years now.

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018, 05:08 Tomasz Wójcik mailto:tom...@wp.pl>> 
wrote:
So basing on your opinions, it looks like highway=* + area=yes isn't
incorrect, it's just not documented. What do you guys think about adding
a better documentation of combination with area=yes to some of highway=*
Wiki pages?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Hain]

This looks to be very comfortably within the computational ability of mobile 
phone apps (“You could calculate it with AI” is a much less attractive 
deletionist argument) so everyone who has implemented it by conerting 
coordinates on the fly would seem to be doing the right thing.

--
Andrew

From: Paul Norman 
Sent: 10 August 2018 23:00:39
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open 
Location Code to the OSM search?

On 2018-08-10 1:06 PM, Blake Girardot HOT/OSM wrote:
> Learning the real world use cases and where the proper technological
> solutions work and if there really genuinely are places where dynamic
> generation is just not possible.
>
> This seems totally in line with things done in the past and should
> work well here.

Speaking as a developer, it's much easier to add PlusCode support
properly than to try and parse another address tag. Don't add them
thinking it makes it easier.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Hain]

If they did sue, could Nomination, Osmand or OSM be liable if we implement it?

--
Andrew

From: Simon Poole 
Sent: 11 August 2018 09:43
To: Blake Girardot
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open 
Location Code to the OSM search?



Am 10.08.2018 um 23:25 schrieb Blake Girardot:
> Is that not the reason OSM was started in the first place?   :)

It is slightly different in more than one way for a monopoly owner to
pre-emptively create and promote a free system  to stop a competitor
from gaining a foothold in a potential new market (and the goog is
obviously spending a fair bit of small change on the whole thing). I
suspect suing the goog is plan b for the w3w investors if they are not
successful with the company as such.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open Location Code to the OSM search?

[Andrew Hain]

Do you know whether the latitude and longitude on the plaque are in the WGS84 
that we use?

From: Andrew Errington 
Sent: 11 August 2018 10:56
To: mmd
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is it technically and legally possible to add the Open 
Location Code to the OSM search?

I tag survey points with latitude and longitude (taken from the plaque on the 
survey marker). Then it is possible to see if they have been moved 
accidentally, and for users to check that they are actually in the surveyed 
location.

Andrew

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018, 21:24 mmd mailto:mmd@gmail.com>> 
wrote:
Am 10.08.2018 um 19:46 schrieb Christoph Hormann:
> The idea of tagging encoded coordinates is so ridiculous to anyone with
> a bit of understanding of computer programming, data processing and
> data maintainance that even after ignoring all the arguments in
> substance that have been voiced this should be universally rejected if
> for no other reason then because it would make OSM the laughing stock
> of the whole geodata world.

With all due respect, I think we've long crossed that point:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/KSJ2%3Alat
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/ngbe%3Alat_ed50
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gns%3ALAT
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/latitude

--



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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Andrew Hain]

Could you give some examples so that the wider OSM community can do something 
about it?

--
Andrew


From: Christoph Hormann 


We already have quite a few people on the wiki who try to forbid mappers
accurately documenting widely used tags because these tags are bad in
terms of certain systematics and should not 
exist.

[https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]
 Virus-free. 
www.avg.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Board decision on Crimea complaint

[Andrew Hain]

A question both to the current board and the candidates: Do you support normal 
levels of Board transparency on this issue?
--
Andrew

From: Martijn van Exel 
Sent: 10 December 2018 16:55:42
To: OSM Talk; OSMF Talk
Cc: OSMF Board
Subject: [Osmf-talk] Board decision on Crimea complaint

Hi all,

On November 17, the OSMF Board of Directors received a request to review the 
Nov 14, 2018 Data Working Group decision regarding Crimea.

The Board decided that this decision is to be reversed and the previous 
situation, as laid out in the May 5, 2014 Data Working Group minutes, is to 
further remain in effect.

The board highly values the Data Working Group’s work and appreciates the 
difficulty and complexity of the cases they are asked to review on an ongoing 
basis.

A more comprehensive statement will follow in the next weeks.

Best regards,
Martijn van Exel
Secretary, OpenStreetMap Foundation
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Board decision on Crimea complaint

[Andrew Hain]

Will the board be following up with additional information as promised?

--
Andrew

From: Martijn van Exel 
Sent: 10 December 2018 16:55:42
To: OSM Talk; OSMF Talk
Cc: OSMF Board
Subject: [Osmf-talk] Board decision on Crimea complaint

Hi all,

On November 17, the OSMF Board of Directors received a request to review the 
Nov 14, 2018 Data Working Group decision regarding Crimea.

The Board decided that this decision is to be reversed and the previous 
situation, as laid out in the May 5, 2014 Data Working Group minutes, is to 
further remain in effect.

The board highly values the Data Working Group’s work and appreciates the 
difficulty and complexity of the cases they are asked to review on an ongoing 
basis.

A more comprehensive statement will follow in the next weeks.

Best regards,
Martijn van Exel
Secretary, OpenStreetMap Foundation
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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

[Andrew Hain]

Is it worth mechanically removing any of the existing discardable tags from the 
database as well?

--
Andrew

From: Dave F via talk 
Sent: 17 March 2019 21:09
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of 
osmarender:nameDirection - blatant tagging for the renderer

Mateusz
There's also a few osmarender:renderName in the UK. Maybe check osmarender:* to 
collate all?

Simon
Never comprehended the reluctance to remove dead items. Does stepping the 
version /really/ cause any harm?
Contributors, especially newbies, often copy tags from existing examples with 
redundant tags often propagating as result.

We allow everybody to add data (which I agree with), but there's an increasing 
resistance to anybody suggesting tag removal.

If it improves database quality, then go for it.

DaveF


On 15/03/2019 20:13, Simon Poole wrote:

Why would we want to create new versions of objects just to remove a tag
that is not hurting anybody in any way?

The correct way to handle this is to add the tag to the list of
deprecated tags that should be automatically removed (essentially iD has
a list and JOSM has one too), when and if the objects are ever edited
the tags will then be removed.

Simon

Am 15.03.2019 um 20:16 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny:


osmarender:nameDirection=* is an old tag that is case of tagging for
the renderer.
Additionally, Osmarender is defunct anyway.

I propose to purge this tag from database as useless, confusing and
encouraging
tagging for renderer.

This edit would remove about 2000 osmarender:nameDirection=* tags
worldwide,
with most of them in Germany and England.

osmarender:nameDirection is described on OSM Wiki as

"By default Osmarender will draw street names left-to-right along ways.
It uses the longitude (horizontal position) of the start and end
points of the
way to determine the direction.

In some cases, for example, very winding roads, the automatically chosen
name direction is not ideal. In this case the way can be tagged with
osmarender:nameDirection=-1 or osmarender:nameDirection=1 as a
hint to tell Osmarender which way to draw the name. "

Automated edit page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_osmarender:nameDirection_-_blatant_tagging_for_the_renderer

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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to railway/public_transport=platform

[Andrew Hain]

Also:

Have a new team of developers code from the codebase of iD.

Write a new online editor from scratch.

Abandon online editing and tell everyone to use an offline editor.

--
Andrew

From: Simon Poole 
Sent: 27 May 2019 11:07
To: talk@openstreetmap.org; osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Remove validation rule asking to add highway=footway to 
railway/public_transport=platform

The problem with this (and the longer thread on tagging), that it has
had exactly 0 effect.

As I see it we can choose between

- doing nothing (seems to be most popular currently)

- wage an edit war by reverting any edits that clearly do not correspond
to best practices (not good)

- put in place a code of conduct for developers that want their code
deployed on osm.org and other OSMF sites with minimum requirements on
transparency and community interaction (the irony of this is not lost on
me, and it is not clear who would enforce this)

- deploy from a forked iD that is selective with respect to which
commits are integrated (IMHO too much work)

- engaging with the respective employers and ask them to rectify the
situation (obviously there's a big hole in this one)

That's probably about it.

Simon

Am 23.05.2019 um 18:11 schrieb Markus:
> Hello Bryan, hello everyone,
>
> I'm posting this reply to Bryan's message on GitHub
> (https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/6409#issuecomment-495231649)
> here, as the issue has been locked by Bryan.
>
>> Hey all, I've locked this topic. Inviting other people to jump on the thread 
>> just to express disagreement is not very helpful.
> While i really appreciate the work you and the other developers have
> put into iD, i find it demotivating and harmful that you refuse other
> opinions.
>
>> Some people will disagree, and that's ok.
> So far, everybody except you disagreed. If there is a clear majority,
> i expect the iD developers to follow it.
>
> Moreover, this validation rule infringes upon these policies or guidelines:
>
> * Automated Edits code of conduct
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct):
> You take advantage of mappers unconsciously adding highway=footway to
> platforms. This is an automated edit.
> * Map what's on the ground
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Map_what.27s_on_the_ground):
> A platform is not a footway.
> * Don't map for the renderer
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice#Don.27t_map_for_the_renderer):
> It's rater "don't map for the router", but the effect is the same.
>
>> There exists no master list of all the routable features in OSM. This is 
>> because people are always making up tags. It is unreasonable to expect 
>> mappers and data consumers to "just know" what all the tags are that are 
>> routable.
> If the problem is the lack of a list of all routable features in OSM,
> then it should be solved by creating such a list, not by mapping for
> the router. (By the way, routable tags aren't added very frequently.)
> I guess it should also be possible to create a "routable" property for
> Wikibase (data items).
>
> I kindly ask you to reconsider your decision, to not block opinions
> that differ from yours and to listen more to the community.
>
> Best regards
>
> Markus
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] mass iD validation arrives in NYC

[Andrew Hain]

Just out of idle curiosity, do we know of any data consumers that understand 
crossing=marked?

--
Andrew

From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Sent: 28 May 2019 19:00
To: Dave F
Cc: osm
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] mass iD validation arrives in NYC



Am Di., 28. Mai 2019 um 19:56 Uhr schrieb Dave F via talk 
mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>>:
I notice these changesets were completed in 30/60 seconds respectively.
I don't use iD. How is this possible? Does it have a JOSM like mass edit
ability?

   I don't see asking users to split the changesets as a solution to
what is the clear problem of mass adding/amending tags to
unknown/undocumented ones.



indeed, I see no way to judge whether the iD suggestion to change objects from 
crossing=zebra to crossing=marked makes sense, because there is no 
documentation of crossing=marked. Going by the words, probably any zebra 
crossing can be seen as a marked crossing so it may not be introducing errors, 
just reducing specificity/detail.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at SotM?

[Andrew Hain]

This would be a good idea and it shouldn’t be confined to iD. This is just a 
particularly acute example of something that sometimes happens in OSM. Ideally 
there would be several developers there including iD.

--
Andrew

From: Christine Karch 
Sent: 29 May 2019 10:55
To: talk@openstreetmap.org; osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org
Cc: program-sotm
Subject: [Osmf-talk] Anyone who likes to organize an ID discussion panel at 
SotM?

Hi,

reading the discussions about the direction of ID development and how
the community wants the ID at the OSM website I had the idea that there
could perhaps be a panel at SotM. Does anyone want to organize an ID
discussion panel at SotM? Please tell me or us (program committee in CC)
and we can consider it. At the moment it would be sufficient to have
someone (or more) who wants to organize it. All details could be defined
later.

As ID is a core feature at the OSM website I think this would be
suitable for the main program at SotM.

Additionally it is always possible to organize informal meetings, panels
during SotM in the unconference space (we will provide a lot of it).

By the way ticket sales is open. The Early Bird phase is until 7 July.
Program announcement will be around 20 June.

We will have our schedule meeting at 8 June. So it would be good to know
if an ID panel should be planned. Details for the program booklet should
be provided until end of July.

Cheers

Christine

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Andrew Hain]

Every tag documentation page has a grey pencil icon next to the description to 
edit the data message. Maybe it could be made clearer.

--
Andrew

From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 09 June 2019 12:59
To: osm
Subject: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

While checking out the Map Features osm wiki pages, I noticed a few
items that were missing descriptions or had very short,
self-referrential ones (eg. "A peninsula" for natural=peninsula and
"An isthmus" for natural=isthmus), even though the wiki page actually
has a good description, which was approved as part of the proposal
process for each feature.

When I edited the pages to add the description to the usual template
(the ValueDescription template), I was surprised to see that this box
was missing. I ended up reverting the last edits which removed the
box, so that I could edit it.

I was then informed that there is now a "data item" in a tool called
"wikibase" where this information can be edited. Another osm wiki user
thought this is now the correct place to store information like a tag
description.

Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
don't quite understand how it works.

Description of wikibase data items (rather confusing to me):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items

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Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki pages?

[Andrew Hain]

Some more advantages:

Data item descriptions can be added for tag values that have no need for 
long-form documentation separate from the key.

Descriptions can be added in extra languages before anyone has the time to 
write full documentation in that language; with support from Taginfo this means 
that Map features tables can be generated automatically in all languages and 
not just English.

--
Andrew

From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 10 June 2019 13:30
To: Tobias Knerr
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Wikibase items instead of usual templates for wiki 
pages?

> A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
information does not need to be manually copied to each translation.

But right now, instead of just checking the English page and the
translated page (eg Bahasa Indonesia), I have to check the English
page, the wikibase data item, and the Bahasa Indonesia page to make
sure they all match.

> The current situation with content duplicated between
data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems.

So for there to be any benefit, we would have to get rid of the
existing templates and switch to only using the wikibase data items,
correct?

I think we need to discuss if this is desired, before any more time is
spent on adding all of those data items.

-Joseph

On 6/10/19, Tobias Knerr  wrote:
> On 09.06.19 13:59, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> Has this wikibase feature been discussed and approved by the community
>> in some forum? Perhaps it happened before I was involved with OSM? I
>> don't quite understand how it works.
>
> The way it works is that every tag has a "data item". This is the one
> for natural=isthmus, for example:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q19327
>
> Of course, you're not expected to find this numeric URL yourself. You
> can get there from the wiki page for that tag by clicking on a "pencil"
> icon next to the description in the infobox, or by using an
> "OpenStreetMap Wiki data item" link that appears in the left-hand menu
> on every page that has a data item associated with it.
>
> The idea behind data items is actually quite similar to how templates on
> the wiki work: There is a number of possible properties that you can
> fill in with information. The properties which are currently available
> are mostly identical to the ones used by the templates: Whether the tag
> can be used on nodes/ways/..., links to related/required/implied tags,
> an image, and descriptions in various languages.
>
> If some information is omitted from a wiki page, the infobox will pull
> it in from the tag's data item. Otherwise, the information written
> directly on the page will take precedence.
>
> A potential benefit of data items is that language-independent
> information does not need to be manually copied to each translation. And
> while software like Taginfo has been able to extract information from
> the wiki for a long time, the hope is that this kind of extraction will
> eventually become easier thanks to data items.
>
> I do not believe there has been a community decision to stop adding
> information directly on wiki pages. So the other wiki contributor's edit
> was probably premature.
>
> Of course, though, the current situation with content duplicated between
> data items and wiki pages isn't really ideal. But there's probably still
> some work left until data items can fully replace the existing systems
> (updating data consumers, plus working on usability and documentation).
>
> Tobias
>
> ___
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>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Mali

[Andrew Hain]

Is there any sign of mappers being part of an organised activity or of someone 
having encouraged them to contribute?

--
Andrew

From: John Whelan 
Sent: 29 June 2019 23:49
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Cc: Pierre Béland via HOT
Subject: [OSM-talk] Mali

I've been going over Mali adding in missing villages and hamlets working in the 
southern and eastern part of Mali and cleaning up as I go.  Adding nodes to 
highways that cross but have no nodes, adding tags to untagged ways etc.  I 
even try to make sure each village has one highway at least leading to it.

However as I work west I'm coming across areas that have lots of buildings and 
lots of errors.  I've zapped more than a few hundred duplicate buildings.  I 
confess I have not put a comment on every changeset especially when the mapper 
has less than 30 edits.  I'm seeing three buildings mapped on top of each other 
by the same mapper.  One is untagged and its not just once.  Interestingly some 
of the changesets are tagged "untangling the spaghetti" and I have sympathy 
with that mapper.

In particular I'm seeing whole villages marked as a single building=yes, 
villages with highways that don't meet in the middle.  Villages connected by 
tracks which doesn't match up with the African Highway wiki page.

Most errors are mapped by mappers with not that much experience.  The buildings 
in some ways are a nuisance as they both seem to be mapped from different 
imagery so often have been mapped crossing highways etc but the other problem 
is they fill the map so much so other features are difficult to spot like 
highways that don't quite meet.

Are there any local Mali mappers around to chat with to see if we can get 
something organised?  In particular we need the highway classification sorting 
out.  The African highway wiki is fine as far as it goes but something 
connecting a village to a highway comes out as unclassified especially if there 
are square roofs in the village.  In order to differentiate the highways that 
these connect to that connect a number of villages probably should be tertiary 
and the ones that connect towns and major villages probably something else.

However I'd be much more comfortable with some local mappers making these calls.

I'm not sure quite what to do.  It needs a more organized approach.  An Apple 
mapper has been in demoting highway=tertiary to unclassified and yes we did 
have a conversation however I'm fairly certain they are working remotely from 
imagery.

Thoughts?

Thanks John

--
Sent from Postbox
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Re: [OSM-talk] Maintaining privacy as a casual mapper

[Andrew Hain]

Have you talked to the Data Working Group about this?

--
Andrew

From: 80hnhtv4agou--- via talk 
Sent: 03 November 2019 16:47
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Maintaining privacy as a casual mapper


I find myself being stalked by one mapper, (using the stalking tools, WHODIDIT:



OpenStreetMap Changeset Analyzer and mapbox/osmcha)



who clams edit ownership over a 3,000 sq. mile bus system, who is at least 20 
miles



away from me, and i am on the ground mapping, (in my profile, shows mappers up 
to



8 km away 4 + miles and not one of them is a mapper and have tried to friend me 
?)



and sending me messages that i am wrong  and re editing every thing i do



in this catorry.



i am on the standard map, iD (in-browser editor) and he appears to be in the 
transit map



which he has copied the routes from yahoo.


From: Maarten Deen
Sent: Sunday, November 3, 2019 5:15 AM
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Maintaining privacy as a casual mapper

On 2019-11-03 11:42, Philippe Latulippe wrote:
> Hello everyone!
>
> I like to improve OSM casually, making small fixes as I use the map in
> my day-to-day life. However, doing so without any precautions would
> reveal a great deal of information about where I've been, since my
> edits cover exactly the places where I'm active. A look at my edit
> history would reveal where I live, where I work, where I've traveled.
> If last night I had added a detailed POI of a restaurant and nothing
> else, one could correctly assume that I was at that restaurant
> recently.
>
> I've managed to protect my privacy somewhat by creating one account
> for every neighbourhood I want to map. This is time consuming and
> error prone, and it's held me back from making improvements to the
> map.
>
> Are there better ways to maintain some privacy while editing the map?
> Are there some tools? Or is there a way to make edits in a way that
> doesn't reveal my username to regular users?

What do you use your OSM username for? Is there any reason not to create
an anonymous username like anon65498?

I mean, sure your mailadres suggests your name is Philippe Latulippe and
I can find some people with that name on the internet, but how do I know
that is your real name and not an alias?

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags

[Andrew Hain]

I strongly disagree.

It is perfectly useful to document the existence of tags in the database with 
data items. For example one was created for the key sub_sea:type 
[https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4506] and it has been possible to 
add this it is a discardable tag that the main OSM editors remove when editing. 
While it is possible in principle to add a long form tag documentation page, 
and indeed the presence of the data item is a record that one may be worth 
writing, it needs a different set of skills to research its content. As such 
the data item and others like it are useful on their own.

--
Andrew

From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 18 February 2020 17:28
To: osm 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Creation of "Data Items" by bot for undocumented tags

Data Items should not be created by bot for undocumented tags.

According to 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_items#Item_Creation_Process
the Data Items (aka "Wikibase" or "Wiki Data items") are automatically
created by a bot, even before a tag is documented, if a tag has a
certain standard format and more than 10 uses in the database.

The data item is created in this case with the text "‎Created a new
Item: Auto-updating from Wiki pages" - e.g.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history

This is confusing to users. For example, Item:Q19947 above,
"landuse=research" was created before there was a wiki page. Then
yesterday a user documented the tag with a page, but did not
understand why there was already a data item:

"Wikibase entry: evidence for preceding deletion? I've just created
landuse=research, but the data item
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Item:Q19947&action=history
was already existing in December '19. How was the data item then
created?"
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Wiki=#Wikibase_entry:_evidence_for_preceding_deletion.3F

Besided the potential confusion caused by creating these items by
bots, I think it is a bad idea to encourage wiki users to start
editing these data items without first creating an actual
human-readable wiki page to document the tag.

In theory, the "Data Items" can be useful if they properly document
how tags are used, in a way that is easier for computers to handle,
but this only works if the data is maintained and updated.

Creating a new wiki page (by human) will alert other users via
"Special:Recent" and "Special:NewPages", while the stream of items
created by bots is too much for humans to maintain, and the page names
are too obscure (Item: Q19947 is meaningless) to be scanned by humans.

Therefore, I propose that Yurikbot be changed to only add new data
items for documented tags which already have a wiki page in at least
one language. I do not see a benefit to creating date items for
undocumented tags.

Joseph Eisenberg

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Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

[Andrew Hain]

When you aren’t sure of the exact nature of a service road it makes perfect 
sense to leave out the service= tag. If that makes it more prominent it’s the 
fault of the renderer.

--
Andrew


From: Greg Troxel 
Sent: 22 March 2020 16:46
To: Dave F 
Cc: Dave F via talk ; OpenStreetMap talk-us list 

Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Taking a break and a call for help

Dave F  writes:

> On 21/03/2020 20:59, Greg Troxel wrote:
>>
>> This really seems unfair.
>>
>> When someone maps for OSM because they want to, they have goals and a
>> typically a good attitude about community norms.
>>
>> When someone is a a paid mapper, their goals come from the person who is
>> paying them, and they don't necessarily care about the overall health of
>> OSM.
>>
>> So this "paid mapping is a bit scary" notion is 100% accurate.
>
> You've made a leap in logic there. From guessing to 100% true.

No leap, and no guessing.

I have made a logical conclusion about a situation with a structural
conflict of interest.

It is entirely normal in our greater society to recognize conflicts of
interest and to mitigate them.  In open source, we don't talk about it
much, but usually contributions come in chunks and are reviewed.  OSM
doesn't have a review process, really (not a complain - just that
review-before-merge isn't something that can address COI in OSM.

I did not say (and do not mean) any of

  all paid mappers are bad people

  all edits done by paid mappers are bad

My point is that when people are paid to map, there is a structural
conflict of interest between the good of OSM and the goals/incentives
impressed on the paid mapper.  Again, that doesn't mean it's always
misaligned - it means that the possibility is very real, and we
currently don't have a way to deal with this.  So I find the general
situation inherently fraught.

(There's also the issue of misalignment between the good of OSM and the
goals of the employer, but I'm assuming that the employer's goals flow
down to paid mappers goals, for a competent employer.)


>> That doesn't mean all paid apping is bad; were I to take money from
>> the local chamber of commerce to make sure all their businesses were
>> on the map with opening hours and other details, all of it would be
>> done in a way that other mappers would think is correct, or at least
>> just as correct as if I were doing it for fun.  But the idea that
>> people are hired into a position and given instructions might lead to
>> bad outcomes is quite sensible.  Really these edits are not so
>> different from mechanical edits, and I think the organizers need to
>> own the responsibilility for high quality, and the standard should be
>> quite a bit better than normal hand mapping norms.
>
> What's the betting you'd be the first to complain when your parcel is
> 30 minutes after it's allocated delivery time, because the driver
> couldn't find the right driveway.

Now you have crossed into ad hominem and strawmen.

Note that what you quoted from me said "might lead to bad outcomes", not
"always will".

I did not say that anybody, Amazon included, adding driveways following
existing norms was a bad thing.  Around me the average edit quality for
driveway additions has been good -- and I have not complained about
them.  There have been some with not quite right tagging, but mostly
they've been ok, and its been things like "highway=service" without
"service-driveway" -- not egregious, still better than before addition,
but too heavy on the render, as well as not quite right.

My belief is that a bunch of paid mappers with a narrow focus and
basically only adding missing things is quite likely to be mostly ok.
Once you get into changes with more nuance, I expect more trouble.

I did say that when someone pays a lot of people to map, then that
becomes a large scale edit.  Again I didn't say that was always bad --
but I did say that the company needs to be responsible for making the
problems that could happen not happen actually.  I really don't
understand why you consider that to be so offensive.

> This is all AL are doing, completing the final quarter of a mile of
> their journey in areas not easily accessible to the general public.
> It is *not* a mechanical* edit, but taken from on the ground surveys
> using GPS, in *exactly* the same way many voluntary contributors map.

Are you associated with AL in any way?  I'm guessing not, but your
reaction to pointing out a structural conflict of interest is remarkably
strong.

> Please don;t assume, go on the evidence of the contributions. I
> believe they're improving the quality of the OSM database.

My memory of which paid editor did which is blurred, and I think it
wasn't amazon, but in the last year or two I have had to clean up a
number of things where conservation land was touched and local-consenus
tags, put there by local mappers, were removed by far-awy paid mappers.
While I could talk via changeset comment to one paid mapper, another
paid ma

Re: [OSM-talk] Remove Wikidata parameter from Infobox on wiki (ValueDescription, KeyDescription boxes)

[Andrew Hain]

Getting rid of the search link is definitely a good idea, there are also links 
to artificial Wikidata items such as Q57977870 highway key in OpenStreetMap to 
consider.

--
Andrew


From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 03 May 2020 17:10
To: osm 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Remove Wikidata parameter from Infobox on wiki 
(ValueDescription, KeyDescription boxes)

I propose removing the "wikidata=" parameter from the descriptions of keys and 
tags on the OpenStreetMap wiki. See discussion:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template_talk:ValueDescription#Wikidata

"While it is sometimes possible to state that all OSM elements with that tag 
are an instance of some Wikidata item, it is not possible in other situations. 
For example, roads with bridge=yes crossing a man_made=bridge are not instances 
of "bridge". Furthermore, a lot of OSM tags don't represent an instance 
relationship with some class of objects at all, but are properties instead. So 
I doubt that mapping Wikidata onto OSM tags in that manner is feasible. 
--Tordanik 21:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)"

"I don't think the "Wikidata" link adds anything useful for OSM mappers and I 
would be in favour of dropping it. Also, if there is no Wikidata link set, then 
currently the template displays a "search in Wikidata..." link which gives the 
whole "linked data" religion unnecessary prominence. The template has many 
optional parameters, and "wikidata" is the only parameter where, when it is 
missing, Wiki users are nudged in the direction of researching and adding it. 
This makes it look as if adding the "wikidata" parameter was a more valuable 
use of an editor's time than completing other missing bits of information. This 
is a value judgement that I oppose. --Frederik Ramm 16:02, 8 November 2018 
(UTC)"

"Now we have our own Wikibase there’s another problem. The Wikidata link has a 
database link (Q number) that is different from the Q number in our own 
Wikibase instance. The WMF developers were very un-keen on Yuri’s suggestion of 
us using a different prefix letter to distinguish the two. Getting rid of the 
Wikidata parameter would solve this.--Andrew (talk) 06:26, 9 November 2018 
(UTC)"

I've also noted that often the links are wrong, because a tag like "craft=*" is 
not the same as the wikidata definition of "crafts". You would need to link to 
several wikidata concepts to describe one OpenStreetMap tag in that case.

-- Joseph Eisenberg
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Re: [OSM-talk] Remove Wikidata parameter from Infobox on wiki (ValueDescription, KeyDescription boxes)

[Andrew Hain]

See 
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_deletions/Archive/2018/10/16#Q29637965
 for another artificial item.

--
Andrew


From: Andrew Hain 
Sent: 03 May 2020 18:22
To: Joseph Eisenberg ; osm 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Remove Wikidata parameter from Infobox on wiki 
(ValueDescription, KeyDescription boxes)

Getting rid of the search link is definitely a good idea, there are also links 
to artificial Wikidata items such as Q57977870 highway key in OpenStreetMap to 
consider.

--
Andrew


From: Joseph Eisenberg 
Sent: 03 May 2020 17:10
To: osm 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Remove Wikidata parameter from Infobox on wiki 
(ValueDescription, KeyDescription boxes)

I propose removing the "wikidata=" parameter from the descriptions of keys and 
tags on the OpenStreetMap wiki. See discussion:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template_talk:ValueDescription#Wikidata

"While it is sometimes possible to state that all OSM elements with that tag 
are an instance of some Wikidata item, it is not possible in other situations. 
For example, roads with bridge=yes crossing a man_made=bridge are not instances 
of "bridge". Furthermore, a lot of OSM tags don't represent an instance 
relationship with some class of objects at all, but are properties instead. So 
I doubt that mapping Wikidata onto OSM tags in that manner is feasible. 
--Tordanik 21:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)"

"I don't think the "Wikidata" link adds anything useful for OSM mappers and I 
would be in favour of dropping it. Also, if there is no Wikidata link set, then 
currently the template displays a "search in Wikidata..." link which gives the 
whole "linked data" religion unnecessary prominence. The template has many 
optional parameters, and "wikidata" is the only parameter where, when it is 
missing, Wiki users are nudged in the direction of researching and adding it. 
This makes it look as if adding the "wikidata" parameter was a more valuable 
use of an editor's time than completing other missing bits of information. This 
is a value judgement that I oppose. --Frederik Ramm 16:02, 8 November 2018 
(UTC)"

"Now we have our own Wikibase there’s another problem. The Wikidata link has a 
database link (Q number) that is different from the Q number in our own 
Wikibase instance. The WMF developers were very un-keen on Yuri’s suggestion of 
us using a different prefix letter to distinguish the two. Getting rid of the 
Wikidata parameter would solve this.--Andrew (talk) 06:26, 9 November 2018 
(UTC)"

I've also noted that often the links are wrong, because a tag like "craft=*" is 
not the same as the wikidata definition of "crafts". You would need to link to 
several wikidata concepts to describe one OpenStreetMap tag in that case.

-- Joseph Eisenberg
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Re: [OSM-talk] our Q&A site help.openstreetmap.org is dying

[Andrew Hain]

We could also look at the software Codidact and Topanswers have been writing.

--
Andrew

From: Mateusz Konieczny via talk 
Sent: 20 May 2020 14:48
To: Tobias Wrede 
Cc: Talk 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] our Q&A site help.openstreetmap.org is dying




May 20, 2020, 09:28 by l...@tobias-wrede.de:
Can we involve any of the OSM organizations to find, maybe pay, someone?
The question is about the plan. Life support for this specific platform?

It sounds like an endless pit that can consume plenty of resources,
but maybe I am too pessimistic.

Migrate to Stack Exchange? Even assuming that this company will agree
it has plenty of potential issues.

Wait for someone to volunteer and fix? It would be nice, but not sure what
are chances of that.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Andrew Hain]

The big problem I have with this manifesto is that it brings divisive North 
American attitudes to a worldwide project. As a worldwide project, building a 
community of mappers from the whole world is our most important single 
diversity objective. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t encourage other 
underrepresented groups such as women, but we should step away from this kind 
of international combativeness and dog whistling. It may even be 
counterproductive: some feminists in my country think “diversity” has become a 
code word for misogyny.

--
Andrew


From: Celine Jacquin 
Sent: 09 December 2020 19:06
To: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org ; 
talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive 
Behavior in the OSM Community

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted to 
the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced for 
many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to 
diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable 
mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve diversity.

We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to sign 
it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing


On behalf of the signatories
Best regards

Céline Jacquin
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Re: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to remove it from wiki page and data items ?

[Andrew Hain]

The Wikidata links haven’t gone away; they’re in the OSM data items where they 
are easily machine readable and can be curated against accidental divergences 
between languages. The other description arguments could just as easily follow 
(there’s no problem with them being listed in the wiki infoboxes) but, given 
the similarities between data items and Wikidata, I suppose it makes sense to 
start here.

--
Andrew

From: Marc_marc 
Sent: 30 September 2022 11:59
To: talk 
Subject: [OSM-talk] remove link to Wikidata from infoboxes is a valid arg to 
remove it from wiki page and data items ?

Hello,

a few months ago, the community unfortunately voted [|] to "remove
alphanumeric code visible in infoboxes at OSM Wiki linking to Wikidata"
because for some tags, the item described by the tag was not the same
as the one described by the wikidata item (in my opinion it is better
to only delete the erroneous links instead of hiding everything)

today I see that a bot is deleting the wikidata, which is not
the same thing as "hide from the infobox"

therefore if I want to make an application that displays natural=tree
genus species in the user's language, I don't have access to the
translation base that is de facto wikidata (and I would have to do
like many tools: ask people to waste their time to encode the same
translation again)

so it's the previous vote to hide a valid arg to remove it ?
do we really want the community to waste its time remaking
a wikidata-osm out of ego not to use wikidata.org when
it describes the same concept?
is it useful ? what do we gain by breaking the link between
natural=tree and |wikidata=Q10884 ?
compare osm's translation list with wikidata
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q4723
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q10884
of course for some, it's even worse, for ex genus=* 30 <> 125
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q310
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q34740

it's already a sad waste to have to translate every tag
for the wiki + iD + josm+  + ... + ... without this

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/remove_link_to_Wikidata_from_infoboxes

Regards,
Marc



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Re: [OSM-talk] Jhulto Pul/ Morbi bridge

[Andrew Hain]

And you can put a comment on the changeset that deleted it.

--
Andrew


From: Marc_marc 
Sent: 07 November 2022 13:48
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Jhulto Pul/ Morbi bridge

Le 06.11.22 à 20:25, Andy Mabbett a écrit :
> Someone has deleted the way for the pedestrian bridge at Morbi, India.

it's always a good idea to post an osm id or a geoloc :)
the bridge started at https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/5734380320
and is currently deleted https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/604295549/history



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Re: [OSM-talk] mapilio? (street-level imagery)

[Andrew Hain]

Is there an imagery host that offers an OSM-friendly way to support mapping and 
is suitable for contributions using a smartphone or tablet?

--
Andrew

From: Greg Troxel 
Sent: 24 May 2023 13:31
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: [OSM-talk] mapilio? (street-level imagery)

I just got spam from mapilio, implying that I was a "Mapilio
contributor".  This was, to my memory, the first I had heard of them.


I have avoided most street-level imagery schemes as not being
structurally similar to OSM (open source tooling, community project and
licensing scheme).

Looking briefly, it seems like a corporate thing with proprietary
tooling.  They talk about an app in proprietary app stores but do not
mention F-Droid :-) The point seems to be to monetize crowdsourced
contributions, in a gamified/rewards-ish sort of way.

I don't find a JOSM plugin that makes the imagery available in the way
that their web page implies it is licensed for OSM.

Thus, my approach will be to not deal with them at all and just block
their mail.


I am curious if anyone
  - thinks my assessment of the fundamentals is off
  - thinks there is a reasonable way to use their imagery in JOSM
  - anything else similar

  - has also been spammed (private replies please and I'll post a
followup if I get a bunch of comments)

Greg

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and online on 6-8 September 2024!

[Andrew Hain]

I would like to congratulate the organising team in Nairobi and the SotM 
Working Group for doing this. Giving the worldwide community a broader 
understanding of the challenges of mapping Africa and using maps there is 
positive step for OSM’s inclusiveness as a truly worldwide map.

--
Andrew


From: Federica Gaspari 
Sent: 14 August 2023 18:56
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Announcing State of the Map 2024: Join us in Nairobi and 
online on 6-8 September 2024!


Dear all,



Get ready to meet and connect with old and new mappy friends from the global 
OpenStreetMap community again!



The State of the Map Organising Committee is thrilled to officially announce 
that the global conference of the OpenStreetMap community, State of the Map 
(SotM), will be making its way to Nairobi, Kenya from September 6th-8th 2024! 
This landmark event will bring together passionate mappers, data enthusiasts, 
technologists, and community members from all corners of the globe to celebrate 
the spirit of collaboration and open mapping.



Following the good feedback for State of the Map 2022 Firenze, the upcoming 
State of the Map 2024 will once again be held in a hybrid format. Building on 
the valuable lessons and experiences from the previous events, the SotM 
Organising Committee is committed to making this edition even more accessible 
to everyone who wishes to partake in this grand celebration of open mapping, 
sharing passionate voices with the entire community.



Learn more about the SotM 2024 announcement on the OpenStreetMap blog: 
https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2023/08/14/announcing-state-of-the-map-2024-september-6-to-8-2024-join-us-in-nairobi-and-online/



More details about the organization will be soon communicated.



Federica Gaspari on behalf of the SotM Organising Committee


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Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war

[Andrew Hain]

Is there a bot that does this or is someone prepared to write one?

--
Andrew


From: Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
Sent: 14 September 2023 10:39
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] When two bots go to war

Maybe there should be a general good-practice recommendation / policy
that bots running in this fashion to keep things in sync should only
automatically add/update/remove a tag that they've previously set if
the current state/value in OSM is unchanged from the last state/value
that the bot set. This way, bots could be used to keep things up to
date automatically, but would not automatically override any manually
applied changes by other mappers between runs. (A sensible bot owner
would have the bot send them a report of any tags that couldn't be
updated for manual review.)

Robert.

On Thu, 14 Sept 2023 at 08:41, Cj Malone
 wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2023-09-12 at 15:06 +0200, Snusmumriken via talk wrote:
> > My speculation is that Distriktstandvården (a chain of dental
> > clinics)
> > has taken "ownership" of "their" nodes and once a day check that the
> > values in osm database correspond to that of their internal database.
>
> I've added a more specific website tag to test this. If they restore it
> (Probably 03:00) to the generic home page I agree with you. They need
> to be informed that 1) there data needs improving (eg covid opening
> hours, POI specific not brand specific contact details) 2) they don't
> own these nodes, other people can edit them.
>
> CJ
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/141243391


--
Robert Whittaker

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