Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> So I wouldn't suggest worrying too much about the lists. Theory and practice 
> of community interaction elsewhere in OSM is absolutely a valid and 
> interesting topic, but the lists belong to pretty much the same period in OSM 
> history as IRC and Potlatch, and I say that as someone who still uses both. :)

Mhh, the tagging proposal workflow still involves tagging@ as a requirement. 
And many of the tagging@ members flamed against a proposed move over to 
Discourse . This change would had allowed me to participate in tagging 
discussions again :)

May 3, 2023 11:23:06 Richard Fairhurst :

> Courtney wrote:
>> Or is it going to keep doing the same old flame wars?
> 
> To be honest, the mailing lists have been on the way out for a long time now, 
> and talk@ is no exception. Some once busy lists are now basically dead (dev@, 
> legal-talk@, talk-de@). Others are noticeably quieter (talk@, talk-fr@, 
> osmf-talk@). A few local communities still prefer mailing lists but they're 
> fewer in number every year. Generally, the vital new stuff in OSM doesn't 
> happen on mailing lists.
> 
> So I wouldn't suggest worrying too much about the lists. Theory and practice 
> of community interaction elsewhere in OSM is absolutely a valid and 
> interesting topic, but the lists belong to pretty much the same period in OSM 
> history as IRC and Potlatch, and I say that as someone who still uses both. :)
> 
> Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] Survey about OSM communication behaviors

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> Why is the main "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback? Why 
> is it the only one that is producing such a negative tone? How widely is the 
> principle of using only open source software adopted across the community?

It is not just "Talk". It is a phenomenon of all English speaking OSM mailing 
lists and forums.

The principle of using only open source software is a very poor ideology. 
Ignore people embracing it as I do. Makes live much simpler to ignore people 
not being capable of seeing all sites. In this case open source and closed 
source. Closed source has its reasons to exist.

Apr 30, 2023 19:00:09 Courtney :

> 
> We do indeed have people with non technical backgrounds working on the 
> survey, including a multilingual person with an advanced degree in language 
> and technology, and a person with an advanced degree in English language. We 
> have two very experienced data analysts working on it, as well. 
> 
> We did not run a trial survey against a random sample because, as I said in 
> my previous post, this survey is an ancillary part of a larger, long-term 
> study that relies on publically available data from OSM communication 
> channels. We are also quite capable of framing our findings within the 
> context of how the survey was distributed, with appropriate reference to 
> everything from survey bias, to the difficulties of conducting a free survey 
> across a global community, to the short amount of time that we have to do the 
> survey. No one is claiming that we will be able to deliver the one true, 
> definitive quantitative analysis of OSM communication behaviors to rule them 
> all. We are attempting to uncover some directional behaviors, and see if we 
> can foster a better conversation within the community. 
> 
> This conversation has opened up important new questions.  Why is the main 
> "Talk" channel the only one that is producing pushback? Why is it the only 
> one that is producing such a negative tone? How widely is the principle of 
> using only open source software adopted across the community? We already had 
> a question to this effect within the survey, but we will now be able to learn 
> more by adding the limesurvey. None of this is going to be definitive. All of 
> it is going to be interesting and help raise new questions that hopefully can 
> be studied.
> 
> Can I ask--what is the fundamental objection to us trying to learn a bit more 
> about OSM communication habits? I understand the impulse to give advice--this 
> is welcome even when the advice is predicated on the idea that we lack any 
> kind of insight or experience--there is always more to learn. But, I don't 
> understand the degree of ire and frankly, incredulity that is being levied 
> here.  Should we wait until there is a university study that is fully funded 
> and staffed, and with a perfect approach, with a year's worth of pre-testing, 
> to ask these questions? Is that the standard here? Wait for perfection or do 
> nothing?  Is that how OSM itself was built? I don't understand the tone or 
> the defensiveness of these comments. If the goal is to advance the OSM 
> project, is it better to gate keep all inquiries to a suffocating degree? Or 
> to try to learn and grow? 
> 
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 11:45 AM John Whelan  wrote:
>> Just a comment on Fredrick's input.  Selecting the sample is one of the most 
>> difficult parts of a survey to get right.  The self selection part of this 
>> survey makes it open to bias, as Frederick has commented this is compounded 
>> by the platform. I'm not making a comment about if the platform is 
>> appropriate or not just that if it affects your response then it begins to 
>> cast doubt on your results.
>> 
>> The second is knowing enough about your target audience so they will 
>> understand your questions.  Perhaps have someone non technical with an 
>> English Language background, a librarian, for example check it for jargon.   
>> One technique is to run a trial survey against a true random sample.  I 
>> don't think this was done here.
>> 
>> If they don't understand what you're asking then you aren't going to get a 
>> reliable answers and to be honest I didn't.
>> 
>> I'm not sure if this particular survey is trying to justify a particular 
>> stance or get accurate information. 
>> 
>> Cheerio John
>> 
>> Frederik Ramm wrote on 4/30/2023 11:18 AM:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On 4/28/23 15:57, Marc_marc wrote:
 I am impressed (and disappointed) that those who do these surveys
 have still not learned that part of the active opendata community
 does not wish to ally a closeddata based enterprise (nominally:
 no use of google forms for some of us).
>>> 
>>> Agree. It's one thing for an OSMF working group to use a closed 
>>> source/siloed product internally, but quite another to attempt to engage 
>>> with the community via such a product.
>>> 
>>> I am not surprised when a commercial company like Tom Tom does that without 
>>> a 

Re: [OSM-talk] M$ Flightsimulator

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

If they're copying from proprietary maps like from GMaps, then not because it is not allowed to copy from them. And if the gamers begin to mix data sources, then the problem with the properly rights are getting bigger. Then we cannot find out which data has been retrieved from which source which is important for legal and QA reasons.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: [OSM-talk] M$ FlightsimulatorFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: OpenStreetMap CC: Here’s an article about the players of the new flightsimulator improving buildings:https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2020/08/28/players-are-fixing-microsoft-flight-simulators-missing-monuments-with-google-maps/is there a way to import this data back to OpenStreetMap?Cheers Martin sent from a phone___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Also Linux is the future. Every application that cannot run under Linux will fail in the long run. Remember that Windows shouldn't be the main target platform anymore because it is dying and the society is to blame that they don't get it.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2From: James To: john whelan CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list Personally I use Linux and I fail to see why funding an application that isn't multiplatform. I choose to use linux as scripting/data manipulation is easier than windows.I will not install adobe air as it's discontinued on linux since 2011(security bugs anyone?).  Development and bug fixes on AIR have come to a crawl on other platforms, if you can't seen it's impending death with Web2.0 as well as web assembly, clearly you cannot read the market.On Sun., Aug. 2, 2020, 9:53 a.m. john whelan,  wrote:If Air is proprietary and an Adobe product I strongly suggest avoiding it purely from a security point of view.  Adobe does not have a good reputation in the security world.  Comments certainly have been made about Flash.I don't think we should be encouraging the installation of software that could cause problems for our mappers.I accept that for many who know potlatch well there is a cost of learning something new and many are experienced editors who we'd like to see continue but there are tradeoffs and I think security of the software we are asking people to install should be taken into account.Cheerio JohnOn Sun, Aug 2, 2020, 08:54 pangoSE  wrote:


Is this the platform you are targeting? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_AIRIts proprietary which makes it prone to the same fate as Flash Player. Why even consider such a move?I never use nonfree software like flash so I never tried P2. What is so special about it? Is there something hindering adding that specialness (as a plugin perhaps) to JOSM?The JOSM devs seem very helpful, supporting and have a friendly culture.I suggest letting this code die as it lures people to install nonfree and therefore dangerous software. Alternatively that you team up with your 20 mio edits-peers and port the code to something that does not require proprietary software. You did not present a single usecase that is not covered already by one of the other free software editors so I'm guessing you will have a hard time convincing your peers to team up around yet another editor, but I might be wrong.I don't care about your ROI arguments because they are based on the not outspoken premise that economics of software development is more important when making decisions than freedom, which is false IMO. If you had compared 2 free software projects like iD and JOSM that run without any proprietary code, then it might have been relevant.I suggest declining support of any software project that is or requires proprietary software to run.Cheers pangoSEPS I use 4 different editors to edit in the database: JOSM, OsmAnd, StreetComplete and rarely iD.Richard Fairhurst  skrev: (2 augusti 2020 10:28:22 CEST)


Skyler Hawthorne wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I think using any funds at all to 
> continue support for a tool that 1% of editors use would be wasteful. 
> Flash is, for all intents and purposes, a dead technology. This 
> money is better spent on other uses.

The entire point is to move away from a dead technology (Flash Player) to a supported one (AIR).

On the percentage stat, it's worth bearing in mind that the P2 project is by a long chalk the smallest sum (€2500) of the three that OSMF is proposing here. As a point of comparison, iD was initially developed with a $575,000 grant from the Knight Foundation in 2012, so roughly $646,000 now. Very conservatively estimating the cost of employing 1-2 developers to code on iD since then, you get a development cost of roughly €0.004 per (2020) changeset for iD vs $0.0002 for P2, which is kind of fun.

(I'm actually pleasantly surprised that P2 still has so many changesets - 20 million last year, and I'm guessing high teens this year - given how difficult it is to get Flash Player running in most browsers these days. That suggests that P2's users are using it because they want to do so, not because they are magically unaware of the existence of other editors. I suspect if you could find another way of getting 20 million edits for €2500 then we would snap your hand off.)

Looking forward, and continuing the theme of ROI, the other benefit of the project is that it enables development work to continue on P2. The reason I have bid for funding for this, for the first time in 14 years of developing editors for OpenStreetMap, is that it will take a solid chunk of sustained work to do the AIR conversion and a bunch of other stuff I believe will make P2 more sustainable into the future, and there

Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.But Vespucci is not mentioned here by OSMF and I remember that Android is following the principle of free, democracy, open source, competition (because it's distribution like approach though Google as a say in it which apps are installed by default and what can be done with the phone in terms of rooting it. The distribution approach as an argument for priorizing support for Android is therefore questionable) more than iOS does. And iOS restricts you more than Android does.RegardsSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2From: Richard Fairhurst To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: 



Sören Reinecke wrote:

> So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its 
> AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that 
> supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in 
> a sustainable manner.

AIR is not maintained by Adobe, but by Harman, a Samsung subsidiary. AIR for Linux is still supported at version 2.6 but not updated (https://airsdk.harman.com/faq): Harman is considering future updates. P2 will still run on 2.6 - there are explicit workarounds in the code (e.g. in net/systemeD/potlatch2/collections/Imagery.as) to ensure backward compatibility.

Nonetheless, even if P2 didn't run on Linux, I'm not sure why this should be an issue for other users. No-one says Vespucci isn't sustainable because it doesn't run on iOS.

mmd wrote:

> Why aren't we porting Potlatch2 to WebAssembly, then? 

I'm not sure who the "we" is in this question, but assuming you're not volunteering yourself :), the difficult dependency with P2 is not ActionScript 3 but the Flash runtime, i.e. the Flash and Flex APIs. There are currently only two runtimes capable of running P2: Flash Player and AIR. Ruffle is showing promise (https://github.com/ruffle-rs/ruffle) and is under very active development, but does not yet support AS3 or the Flash Player features that P2 needs. I would anticipate that P2 will be able to run as WebAssembly when Ruffle reaches feature parity with AIR 2.6.





Richard



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Re: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

So far as I understood Adobe dropped Linux support for its AIR plattform. If that is right, then I am in doubt that supporting the development of Potlatch 2 is not that in a sustainable manner.CheersSören Reinecke Original Message Subject: [OSM-talk] Funding of three infrastructure projects : Nominatim, osm2pgsql, Potlatch 2From: Guillaume Rischard To: OSMF Talk CC: OpenStreetMap talk mailing list 
	
	
	

Hi all,
The OSMF Board wants to facilitate and support improving
infrastructure. During the Microgrants process, there were proposals
that didn’t make it, but would together be a good pilot for a “OSM
infrastructure” process, to learn how supporting osm infrastructure
projects works well. 

The OSMF Board wants to fund a limited number of projects proposed by
trusted long-term volunteers whose work we know and enjoy. We have
selected the osm2pgsql and Potlatch microgrant proposals, and have a
new proposal from Nominatim. 

In the long term, we want to re-activate the Engineering Working
Group (EWG) by making it a place for decision making, project
guidance and budget management for such projects. 

The Board would like your feedback on these three specific
infrastructure projects: 

Nominatim 

Nominatim is the geocoding software that powers openstreetmap.org
and many other apps and websites. Sarah wants to work on: 


	
	finishing the localization efforts (improve address computation for
	different countries, localized address output) 
	
	
	making the software more user-friendly (reduce the number of
	programming languages by at least two, move side-projects into
	separate repos, reorganise the code so that Nominatim can become an
	Ubuntu package, docs, docs, docs) 
	

The full proposal is at
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Nominatim_project_2020-07


Potlatch 2 

Potlatch 2 used to be the default editor before iD took the relay.
While usage is declining, it’s still
used by 2500 (1.4%) users who did 10 million (1.2%) changes in 2020. 

Potlatch is built in Flash, which browsers will retire by the end of
the year. Richard wants to adapt Potlatch 2 to the AIR platform so
users who still rely on it can continue to use it. 

The full proposal is at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/Potlatch_2_for_desktop


osm2pgsql 

osm2pgsql loads OpenStreetMap data into databases suitable for
applications like rendering into maps, geocoding with Nominatim, or
general analysis. It is used on openstreetmap.org
and in many other places. 

While there has been constant paid and volunteer work on osm2pgsql,
large scale architecture changes to pay off historical technical debt
are needed to tackle long term challenges, and make future changes
easier. 

Jochen wants to work on: 


	
	Hosting documentation on osm2pgsql.org
	
	
	
	Rethinking the output of the program to make it more concise and
	useful 
	
	
	Tackling the refactoring and cleanup of the “middle” code. 
	
	
	Ongoing maintenance as needed 
	
	
	Other work from the road map as time permits 
	

The original budget and scope were limited by the microgrant
framework. The current project goes beyond that, and addresses open
issues and potential improvements further and better. 

The proposal is at
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql_project_2020-07Thank you and happy mappingGuillaume, for the OSMF board___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Quality and the Openstreetmap value chain

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Thanks for this. Shall we get all on one table; mappers, data analysts, data consumers, developers of and around OSM. This is what I longer proposed in some way. Can this dream now become true?CheerioSören Reinecke alias Valor NaramCloser to the daily preoccupations of Openstreetmap, even lists of attribute values are reductionist and finding the appropriate tradeoff cannot be achieved isolatedly: it requires input from those who will deal with the consequences of the choices - the data consuming users.___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hey,

thanks. I incorporated some of your annotations on the section 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance#1._Differencing_between_survey_and_armchair_mapping
and simplified it. You're right, It's shades of gray because one has to
argue for himself/herself, if what she/he has done is survey- or
armchair mapping. That's why I think simplify should be kept in mind. I
also hope that editors will someday help mappers to create good
changeset comments and therefore providing a guide to mappers so they
can easily categorize their changesets and making it easier for others
to double check and to apply corrections where necessary and informing
the mapper of what has been done wrong and how to prevent that from
happening again.

Cheerio

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram


-Original Message-
From: Greg Troxel 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight
Map Distribution]
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2020 13:43:23 -0400

> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing
> Daylight Map Distribution]From: Frederik Ramm 
> > Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source
> > tagwhere source=survey would point to mappers on the ground,
> > andsource=XYZaerial imagery would point to armchairing?

I'm very sympathetic to knowing the on-ground-ness of a change.  But
Ithink it's shades of gray.  This list illustrates what I mean:
* armchair
a place I have never been to, and which is so far away that I am
notfamiliar with the customs.  An example would be me (US) editing in
Africa.
* country-armchair
as above, but I know the country norms.  Me editing in Glacier
NationalPark.
* local-armchair
as above, but I know the region norms.   If I edited some town in
MAthat I haven't visited (perhaps because I was going to visit), but
Igenerally know how things are.
* visited but mapping done by imagery
Here, I am editing a place where I've been at some point
reasonablyrecently and have some clue, but my edits are based on
imagery.However, my recollection is good enough to avoid most of the
armchairissues.   An example is me fixing up crosswalks and sidewalks
two townsaway, but not from field mapping notes.   I don't consider
thisarmchair, but it's iffy.
* editing soon after a visit
I got someplace, maybe make notes, maybe remember, and edit based
onsome combination of imagery, gpx tracks, notes and memory.   I
thinkthis is squarely not armchair.
* editing while there
Actually using an editor while being in the place being edited.


I would basically split this into three armchair and three not
armchair.



So basically I think source including imagery does not really
imply"armchairing", in that the use of imagery is not the point, but a
lackof familiarity with what's on the ground.  I almost always load and
lookat imagery when editing after being in the field.  I line up ways
fromimagery when that works, becuase I have come to believe from
experience(with specific imagery sources) that this is more accurate
than my gpstracks.
(I have been experimenting with raw GPS data and post-processed
PPPsolutions, and those I think are close to good imagery.)



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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hello again,

very big sorry for the delay, was bussy :)

I updated the page 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance to include
your points of corrections. I also generalized it to comply with
writing standards of the OpenStreetMap Wiki Community.

Sry to have created the page in the namespace of "Changeset". But I
made it clear that it is a stub and not official. My aim is inspiration
rather than dictation.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram

-Original Message-----
From: Sören Reinecke via talk 
Reply-To: Sören Reinecke 
To: Frederik Ramm , talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight
Map Distribution]
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 21:14:25 +0100

> aerial imagery would point to armchairing?

no. Changesets made during armchair mapping need to include the hashtag
"#armchair" and the source the mapper used in the `source` changeset
tag.

> happened to the good old source tag
where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground

in my recent commit I changed the idea to include `source=survey` for
changesets made during surveys.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight
Map Distribution]
From: Frederik Ramm 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
CC: 


> Hi,
> 
> On 3/10/20 18:48, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote:
> > *Spirit of Changeset Governance:* Basically it introduces a way to
> > distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made
> > during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or
> > external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance
> a
> > way for us and the performers to better control validation
> processes and
> > to take actions more precisely.
> 
> Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source tag
> where source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and
> source=XYZ
> aerial imagery would point to armchairing?
> 
> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> ___talk mailing 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> But "you don't really know what you're talking about" is a rude thing to say. And expressing a belief that FB is not capable of doing this to a small, or even large degree, is not based on any factual inquiry of what they've done.Thank you. We cannot really know how Facebook is working on Quality Assurance. Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map DistributionFrom: Mikel Maron To: talk@openstreetmap.org,"Marc M." CC: It's fair to point out that "no malicious vandalism or unintentional errors" is overdoing it, no one can claim 100% on this. But "you don't really know what you're talking about" is a rude thing to say. And expressing a belief that FB is not capable of doing this to a small, or even large degree, is not based on any factual inquiry of what they've done.* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaronOn Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 04:06:05 PM EDT, Marc M.  wrote: Michal Migurski wrote> Only those edits which have been validated to contain no malicious vandalism or unintentional errors so we can show them in our display mapsI get the impression that you don't really know what you're talkingabout. There are many "complaints" that FB does not respond enoughtto community feedback. So to believe that FB is capable of validatingeven the slightest change is naive at best.I spend a lot of time checking every changeset in 2 comfort zones, Iregularly detect anomalies, but to know if it is correct or not takes time.Regards,Marc___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> aerial imagery would point to armchairing?no. Changesets made during armchair mapping need to include the hashtag "#armchair" and the source the mapper used in the `source` changeset tag.> happened to the good old source tagwhere source=survey would point to mappers on the groundin my recent commit I changed the idea to include `source=survey` for changesets made during surveys.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]From: Frederik Ramm To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Hi,On 3/10/20 18:48, Sören Reinecke via talk wrote:> *Spirit of Changeset Governance:* Basically it introduces a way to> distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made> during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or> external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance a> way for us and the performers to better control validation processes and> to take actions more precisely.Nothing against the idea but what happened to the good old source tagwhere source=survey would point to mappers on the ground, and source=XYZaerial imagery would point to armchairing?ByeFrederik-- Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> a changeset with survey info is source=survey, not source=local knowleadgePerdon. It is a mistake> Apart from that, are you suggesting that the main tag become a hashtagor is there a more fundamental idea in the page?Sry, I work with hashtags mostly. Didn't realize the tags for changesets. We could use tags thenCheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]From: "Marc M." To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Hello,Sören Reinecke wrote :> created a wikipage for it. See > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance .a changeset with survey info is source=survey, not source=localknowleadge and putting a source on the changeset is not mandatory but avery good praticeApart from that, are you suggesting that the main tag become a hashtagor is there a more fundamental idea in the page?At the very least, such a non-consensual idea should be found somewhereother than in a namespace that might think it's a good practice sharedby the community.Regards,Marc___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset Governance [was: Announcing Daylight Map Distribution]

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hey,

created a wikipage for it. See 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Changeset/Governance .

Spirit of Changeset Governance: Basically it introduces a way to
distinguish a changeset made during a survey from a changeset made
during armchair mapping using information received from imagery or
external data. In the spirit of more professional Quality Assurance a
way for us and the performers to better control validation processes
and to take actions more precisely.


Feel free to improve and comment

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram

-Original Message-
From: Mario Frasca 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 08:35:15 -0500


  

  
  
that would be VERY nice, if you managed to achieve this.



On 10/03/2020 06:46, Sören Reinecke via
  talk wrote:




> In
>   addition if the mapper works for a company:
> 
>   #
> 
> e.g. #facebook
> 
> #amazon
> 
> #microsoft
> 
> #apple

I've been asking about the '#apple' hashtag, for quite a while,
  straight from Andrew Wiseman, but I don't seem to be able to make
  myself understood, or heard.

they have their team, you can find their edits matching changeset
  timestamp with historic team composition, if you really insist.



  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Yes, I thought also about this and planned it to integrate in my concept. Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map DistributionFrom: Joseph Eisenberg To: Sören Reinecke CC: Volker Schmidt ,talk@openstreetmap.orgMy understanding is that the common way to describe armchair mapping,based on aerial imagery, is to identify the imagery source. So I oftenwrite:Changeset Comment: "Added and adjusted streams and rivers near Oksibilwith ESRI"Changeset Source: "Esri world imagery"This makes it clear that I used Esri imagery to map the streams andrivers, right?- Joseph EisenbergOn 3/10/20, Sören Reinecke via talk  wrote:> Hey>> some ideas about identifying such changes:>>> Example changeset comment where a mapper did armchair mapping:> Data updated, added amenity=restaurant> #armchair>> In addition if the mapper works for a company:> #> e.g. #facebook> #amazon> #microsoft> #apple>> Example changeset comment where a mapper did a survey and added data as> (s)he saw it (from the ground):> #survey>>>> This way we can organize our changes and Facebook and other companies and> the community as well know how to validate and can distinguish changesets> from another. I could create a wikipage where we think about this "changeset> governance">> Cheers>> Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram>>>  Original Message > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution> From: Volker Schmidt> To: talk@openstreetmap.org> CC:>>>>>>>>> Fixing stuff in OSM purely from imagery may not be good.>>>>>> A local mapper who sees something may add it before any satellite imagery>>> has it.>>>>>> If you then 'fix' this back to the satellite imagery you will have>>> committed an error,>>> and that error may dissuade our most important resource from ever making>>> any further changes- the local mapper.>>>>>> Be very careful!>>>>>> I second this last line !>>>> I am observing an influx of mixed-quality remote edits from Amazon>> Logistics in my area.>> I expect this Facebook operation to produce much more changes or potential>> changes (=suspected errors).>> What we need for both cases and similar ones in the future is a way of>> being able to identify such changes, which by their nature will be>> armchair-mapping efforts.>> I do not have a specific proposal, but I would appreciate a tool that>> helps me, as local mapper,  find these edits, and, more importantly we>> need a new approach to organise digesting these massive distributed>> armchair-mapping interventions on OSM data.>> I don't realistically think that banning these activities is good for OSM.>> Not dealing in a systematic way with it at all presents, however, a big>> risk of deteriorating the map for two reasons:>> (1) bad armchair edits by Amazon and Facebook (and others)>> (2) demotivating non-armchair mappers>>>> I repeat I do not have a proposal how to handle that. My main concern is>> that the required work for locally checking even only those edits that>> need checking (I am assuming that at least FB has good algorithms to sort>> out the dead-certain corrections beforehand. I am more sceptical with>> Amazon's changing local access tagging to, essentially, "yes" everywhere>> they have delivered something by delivery van. I came across a good number>> of them, and in most cases they were at least dubious)>>>> Volker>> (Padova, Italy)>___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map Distribution

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Heysome ideas about identifying such changes:Example changeset comment where a mapper did armchair mapping:Data updated, added amenity=restaurant#armchairIn addition if the mapper works for a company:#e.g. #facebook#amazon#microsoft#appleExample changeset comment where a mapper did a survey and added data as (s)he saw it (from the ground):#surveyThis way we can organize our changes and Facebook and other companies and the community as well know how to validate and can distinguish changesets from another. I could create a wikipage where we think about this "changeset governance"CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Announcing Daylight Map DistributionFrom: Volker Schmidt To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Fixing stuff in OSM purely from imagery may not be good.

A local mapper who sees something may add it before any satellite imagery has it.

If you then 'fix' this back to the satellite imagery you will have committed an error,
and that error may dissuade our most important resource from ever making any further changes- the local mapper.

Be very careful!I second this last line !I am observing an influx of mixed-quality remote edits from Amazon Logistics in my area. I expect this Facebook operation to produce much more changes or potential changes (=suspected errors).What we need for both cases and similar ones in the future is a way of being able to identify such changes, which by their nature will be armchair-mapping efforts.I do not have a specific proposal, but I would appreciate a tool that helps me, as local mapper,  find these edits, and, more importantly we need a new approach to organise digesting these massive distributed armchair-mapping interventions on OSM data.I don't realistically think that banning these activities is good for OSM. Not dealing in a systematic way with it at all presents, however, a big risk of deteriorating the map for two reasons: (1) bad armchair edits by Amazon and Facebook (and others)(2) demotivating non-armchair mappersI repeat I do not have a proposal how to handle that. My main concern is that the required work for locally checking even only those edits that need checking (I am assuming that at least FB has good algorithms to sort out the dead-certain corrections beforehand. I am more sceptical with Amazon's changing local access tagging to, essentially, "yes" everywhere they have delivered something by delivery van. I came across a good number of them, and in most cases they were at least dubious)Volker(Padova, Italy)
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Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and Wikidata

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

couldn't we do a vote about that? Would it be possible for the OSMF to maintain and coordinate such a voting. Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and WikidataFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: Sören Reinecke CC: Mateusz Konieczny ,OSM talk mailing list Am Do., 5. März 2020 um 14:36 Uhr schrieb Sören Reinecke :No. Exceptions for both organisations on both site to use/lisence certain data differently than normal. Both organisations Wikipedia Foundation and OpenStreetMap Foundation would need to sign an aggreement.From my understanding of the OSM contributor terms, the OSMF does not have the faculty to grant exceptions from the license, which the majority of active contributors have chosen (currently ODbL), i.e. such an agreement would require to make a voting amongst all active contributors on the OSM side. No idea about wikidata terms, likely they would not need to change anything, wikidata is already very permissive.CheersMartin
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Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and Wikidata

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

No. Exceptions for both organisations on both site to use/lisence certain data differently than normal. Both organisations Wikipedia Foundation and OpenStreetMap Foundation would need to sign an aggreement. Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and WikidataFrom: Martin Koppenhoefer To: Sören Reinecke CC: Mateusz Konieczny ,OSM talk mailing list Am Mi., 4. März 2020 um 20:56 Uhr schrieb Sören Reinecke via talk <talk@openstreetmap.org>:Did I say "dialogue"? This is a matter of communication.What should be agreed on? Wikidata moving to ODbL? We moving to CC0? What other options do you see?CheersMartin
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Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and Wikidata

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Did I say "dialogue"? This is a matter of communication. Original Message Subject: Re: Re:[OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and WikidataFrom: Mateusz Konieczny To: Sören Reinecke CC: OSM talk mailing list 
  
  
Mar 4, 2020, 18:58 by tilmanreine...@yahoo.de:Mar 4, 2020, 16:42 by oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch:It is possible not only to add the Wikidata IDs to the OSM map, but also to add (or verify) the geographical coordinates in the Wikidata items themselves,Using OSM data?Yes, it is possible.No, it is not. Wikidata is CC0 licenced, OSM is ODBL licenced.  

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Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and Wikidata

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Yes, it is possible. The Wikipedia Foundation and its community must allow that and need to get in dialogue with us (us=OSM Community (speaking code)) or we with them.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] The benefits of cross-linking OSM and WikidataFrom: Mateusz Konieczny via talk To: CC: OSM talk mailing list 
  
  
Mar 4, 2020, 16:42 by oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch:It is possible not only to add the Wikidata IDs to the OSM map, but also to add (or verify) the geographical coordinates in the Wikidata items themselves,Using OSM data?  

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Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 186, Issue 56

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> I would promote the same approach today. And would suggest to consider screen-sharing sessions as an additional very efficient means for such tutoring sessions.I'm trying to achieve this, see https://wiki.osm.org/User:Valor%20Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] talk Digest, Vol 186, Issue 56From: Volker Schmidt To: talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: Looking back at my first steps in editing OSM: when I subscribed I was presented with a "who is mapping in your area" type of info. I selected a nearby experienced and recently-active mapper and contacted him via the OSM message system. He offered me,  and I happily accepted him as my tutor. I would promote the same approach today. And would suggest to consider screen-sharing sessions as an additional very efficient means for such tutoring sessions. OSM is not only open geo data, it's also a community. VolkerItalyOn Sat, 22 Feb 2020, 13:04 ,  wrote:Send talk mailing list submissions to
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at
      complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?
      (Simon Poole)
   2. Re: Is there some existing detailed tutorial directed at
      complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?
      (Mateusz Konieczny)


--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 10:37:45 +0100
From: Simon Poole 
To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial
        directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?
Message-ID: <00831175-0728-6247-e93d-68ad41c0f...@poole.ch>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

From a pedagogic point of view I would consider that suboptimal, no to
mention that it would be endless.

For anybody that is going to contribute more than once (and iDs tutorial
does a good job of guiding through that), we want them to learn the
basic concepts of OSM and enable them to extend that to new situations.

That is different from a guided contribution model, say for example with
https://osmybiz.osm.ch/ 
which is preferable for people that don't want to contribute to OSM in
general but just want to add and maintain a specific object.

Simon

Am 22.02.2020 um 05:37 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via talk:
> Is there some automatically generated website
> describing in excruciating detail how to map various features?
>
> Something directed to a potential mappers,
> explicitly describing every single smallest step,
> for every single mappable feature.
>
> I ask as I had again a friend asking me
> "how to add aconstruction area/path/... to OSM".
>
> And it seems to me that automatically generated
> set of such tutorials is both feasible and potentially useful.
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 11:25:29 +0100 (CET)
From: Mateusz Konieczny 
Cc: Talk 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Is there some existing detailed tutorial
        directed at complete newbies? Describing how to add various features?
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"




22 Feb 2020, 10:37 by si...@poole.ch:

>
> From a pedagogic point of view I would consider that suboptimal,      no to mention that it would be endless.
>
>
I expect that endless part may be
solved by generating it automatically
from iD and Vespucci presets.
>
> For anybody that is going to contribute more than once (and iDs      tutorial does a good job of guiding through that), we want them to      learn the basic concepts of OSM and enable them to extend that to      new situations.
>
>
It is intended to be tutorial for the first edit.

I remember that I was quite confused 
during making first edits.
>
> That is different from a guided contribution model, say for      example 

Re: [OSM-talk] changing tables for adults

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Manual changes to the Wikipage without proper community discussion and general agreement is not good because the specification of "changing_table" is protected by the Proposal Process.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] changing tables for adultsFrom: Rory McCann To: Holger Dieterich ,talk@openstreetmap.orgCC: On 22/01/2020 10:31, Holger Dieterich wrote: > I suggest to use this new tag to describe changing places which are > specifically made to be suitable for adults: > * > * > *changing_table:suitableforadults=yes/no*I think `changing_table:adult=yes/no` reads better, it's the same meaning, but less verbose & wordy.It's great to have this sort of data in OSM. 🙂___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk___
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[OSM-talk] iD as default editor

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hello,

so far I know currently Postlatch is the default editor on osm.org . Since it 
needs Flash to run and most users do not have Flash anymore, clicking on the 
"Edit" button leads to almost blank page. Without knowing that you need to 
change Postlatch to iD in settings, you're lost as newbie. This is not very 
beginner friendly

Are they any plans to make iD the default editor or is iD already the default 
editor?

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram



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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-dev] tagtransform for OSM - An effort to make tagging and using OSM data easier; bridging different worlds together

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hello,

I think I need to provide an overview of tagtransform for you to
understand what I want to achieve and to get the idea of bridging. An
update of the repository with better explanation will follow. Some
things changed and some users inspired me so I forgot to update the
README.md accordingly.

Tagtransform specification: (Need ideas to add to the specification,
read here the specification and here you get to know how to contribute)
- The specification enables the convertion from one format to another
by inventing a language that acts as a connection point. This is useful
for offline usage of the rules in the format the app developer can
better work with.
- Bridge between languages
  - e.g. JOSM xml <--> tagtransform specification <--> iD json
  - Data Item database <--> tagtransform specification <--> JOSM xml
- You can contribute to tagtransform
  - by improving the specification
  - by developing scripts that use the specification
  - by developing converters that convert tagtransform specification to
other formats like JSOM xml

Role of validators:
- Validators can take the data from Data Items to create validation
rules
- and can also inspire the Data Item OSM Community by providing them
with validation suggestions.

Role of editors:
- Editors can take the data from Data Items to automatically transform
deprecated tags and to discard discardable tags.
- For offline usage they can fetch data from Data Items and can
transform them to tagtransform specification.
- Recommend a specified POI tagging through presets or automatically
transforming wrong used tags like deprecated ones to new ones.

OSM Data Item Community: (important because tagtransform will use data
they create)
- They have the necessary infrastructure to host key/tag data and they
have already a bunch of these inclusive validation rules and usage
rules.
- They're mappers and understand how keys/tags are used and can
transfer that to meta sphere used by data customers, editors and
validators.
- Go to the Data Item Wikipage to get what it is all about and how to
contribute to Data Items.

Bots/Scripts: (Please do not work on unless we make the specification
production-ready)
- Can be used to query Data Item database for preprocessing data for
later use like offline usage or data analysation at larger scale
- through converting received data to tagtransform specification.
- You can contribute to tagtransform by developing scripts that make
use of the Data Item database of OSM Wiki by fetching them and
converting them to tagtransform specification.

I hope this helps

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias ValorNaram

-Original Message-
From: Sören Reinecke via dev 
Reply-To: Sören Reinecke 
To: d...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-dev] tagtransform for OSM - A effort make tagging and
using OSM data easier; bridging different worlds together
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 15:50:04 +0100

Hey all,

I currently write a specification for tranforming tags in OpenStreetMap
to make life of data customers easier. Different tagging schemes have
emerged since the existence of OpenStreetMap, same are existing in
parallel and a newer one deprecated an old one. Data customers without
knowing the OSM community much get lost. This project aims to help
developers who want to take advantage of the OpenStreetMap great
database which is by the way a brilliant project. This project can also
help to make tagging in OSM more orthogonal and more hassle free.

I saw conflicting interests between OSM community, OSM developers like
the iD developers and data customers. A renderer might need data in
another way as the community contributes. The community might need
another tagging scheme than a renderer. I thought how we can resolve
this, how we can get all sites on "one table" and that is the idea I
had come up with:

A more readable version can be found here: 
https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/README.md
and the principles can be found at 
https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/principles.md



Example 1: They want to have the phone number of a POI. There are some
problems with this:

1. They need to know both contact:phone and phone to get them all.
2. They need to support them both.
3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI.
This really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/OI2.

Example 2: They want to know how many POI's have changing tables
(general: facilities for changing a nappy of a baby). There are some
problems with this too:

1. They need to know both changing_table and the deprecated diaper
to get them all.
2. They need to support them both. Difficult because they're highly
different tagging schemes.
3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI.
This really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/OI5.

Example 3: They want to develop a mapping tool and want to correct
wrong typed in tags. There are some problems with tha

[OSM-talk] tagtransform for OSM - An effort make tagging and using OSM data easier; bridging different worlds together

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hey all,

I currently write a specification for tranforming tags in OpenStreetMap
to make life of all stakeholders easier. Different tagging schemes have
emerged since the existence of OpenStreetMap, same are existing in
parallel and a newer ones deprecated old ones. Data customers without
knowing the OSM community much get lost, mappers use deprecated tagging
schemes and newbies get overhelmed by the bunch of possibilities OSM
gives (they do not know exactly how to map). This project aims to help
developers and mappers who want to take advantage of/contribute to the
OpenStreetMap great database which is by the way a brilliant project.
This project can also help to make tagging in OSM more orthogonal and
more hassle free.

I saw conflicting interests between OSM community, OSM developers like
the iD developers and data customers. A renderer might need data in
another way as the community contributes. The community might need
another tagging scheme than a renderer. I thought how we can resolve
this, how we can get all sites on "one table" and that is the idea I
had come up with: A specification and scripts helping to preprocess
data for each group. But I hope to achieve in long term that the
community comes together with developers, approves the automatic
toggleable function "correcting tagging by means of the community" e.g.
A mapper is typing in `phone=+33 6156 785847887948950` but the
converted form `contact:phone=+33 6156 785847887948950` will appear in
database. This would make use of short-hands possible and makes life of
tagging easier.

> The project bridges different worlds and is therefore a bridge.
> As bridge this project should not just connect different worlds
> together and by ensuring peace between those but also support
> exchange between those to develop a social economy of  "send and
> receive" This project should support the "come together" of (OSM)
> developers and mappers.

A more readable version can be found here: 
https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/README.md
and the principles can be found at 
https://github.com/ValorNaram/transformation-table-osmtags/blob/master/principles.md

---

Example 1: They want to have the phone number of a POI. There are some
problems with this:

1. They need to know both contact:phone and phone to get them all.
2. They need to support them both.
3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI.
This really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/OI2.

Example 2: They want to know how many POI's have changing tables
(general: facilities for changing a nappy of a baby). There are some
problems with this too:

1. They need to know both changing_table and the deprecated diaper
to get them all.
2. They need to support them both. Difficult because they're highly
different tagging schemes.
3. They need to remove one in case both keys are mapped on one POI.
This really happens, see http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/OI5.

Example 3: They want to develop a mapping tool and want to correct
wrong typed in tags. There are some problems with that:

1. They need to know all possible tagging schemes existing for one
purpose (e.g. mapping facilities for changing the nappy of a baby).
2. They need to know the right/approved/more logical scheme.
3. They need to know how to convert:

diaper=yes
diaper:female=yes

becomes after the transformation:

changing_table=yes
changing_table:location=female_toilet

---

Basically it bridges the OSM community and developers together, it
might even resolve the conflict between iD developers and the
community.


I want to hear your opinions on this and also feel not to shame to ask
questions. My answers will be part of the clarification of the project
"tagtransform for OSM".

Cheers

S??ren Reinecke alias ValorNaram


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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal process Wikipage - Adding note about the use of seperators for values

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

> The semicolon is one information out of many.Short notes should do the trick. User are free to click on ghe hyperlinks to get detailed information. We can do that for all information.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal process Wikipage - Adding note about the use of seperators for valuesFrom: Yves To: Sören Reinecke ,Sören Reinecke via talk ,Mateusz Konieczny CC: Talk The semicolon is one information out of many, I'm not sure we should add this in the already long 'proposal process' page.Especially considering that semicolons are discouraged but we do use them, this is not ideal for clarity. Le 4 décembre 2019 17:35:57 GMT+01:00, "Sören Reinecke via talk"  a écrit :
I expected a note about that it is not wanted to have tags with semicolon seperated values. I expected this inclusive a hyperlink in the "Before creating a proposal" of the page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_processQuestion: It is allowed to alter that page to add more helpful information?CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal process Wikipage - Adding note about the use of seperators for valuesFrom: Mateusz Konieczny To: CC: Talk 
  

  
  
What is your question?What kind of note you expected and where?4 Dec 2019, 10:37 by talk@openstreetmap.org:Hey all,someone pinpointed me to the wiki at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator and I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal%20process and wonder why I cannot find a note about that.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk  

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal process Wikipage - Adding note about the use of seperators for values

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

I expected a note about that it is not wanted to have tags with semicolon seperated values. I expected this inclusive a hyperlink in the "Before creating a proposal" of the page https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal_processQuestion: It is allowed to alter that page to add more helpful information?CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Proposal process Wikipage - Adding note about the use of seperators for valuesFrom: Mateusz Konieczny To: CC: Talk 
  
  
What is your question?What kind of note you expected and where?4 Dec 2019, 10:37 by talk@openstreetmap.org:Hey all,someone pinpointed me to the wiki at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator and I looked at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal%20process and wonder why I cannot find a note about that.CheersSören Reinecke alias Valor Naram___talk mailing listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk  

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[OSM-talk] Proposal process Wikipage - Adding note about the use of seperators for values

[Sören Reinecke via talk]

Hey all,

someone pinpointed me to the wiki at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator and I looked at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal%20process and wonder why I cannot 
find a note about that.

Cheers

Sören Reinecke alias Valor Naram
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