Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Tuesday 05 May 2009, Emilie Laffray wrote: What might be interesting and worth a discussion: A tag to describe the default language of this object, e.g. language=en. This could als be several tags, e.g. name=België - Belgique - Belgien name:nl=België name:fr=Belgique name:da=Belgien (and some more) language=nl;fr;da- this would be new (I hope I got the languages right, sorry if not) It should be de for German, but anyway. I like the idea of the language element. I would like to add an extra precision in this case. I think the order of language should be by importance. Unfortunately, in this case namely the country, it is something highly political to even consider an order. But, in the case of a town located in the French speaking part, it would be logical to put something like fr;nl;da instead of nl;fr;da. The reverse would be true. It's not really like that. In most of the country there's only one single official language. It's only a problem if you take the country as a whole, or look at Brussels: For the country name, it's just ordered according to number of people in each language community currently. Not exactly a controversial way of tagging. Brussels, which is officially bilingual French and Dutch, is a different beast. While it's uncontested that French is spoken more there, it's a real political minefield and one has to be careful to keep the two languages on par. Speaking of one language being more important than the other could easily provoke lively discussions or even edit-wars. But luckily we didn't have anything like that in OSM in Belgium yet and everyone is just tagging the French and Dutch names in the order they like in the name tag. But if we're going to add a tag that defines an order of importance, that can easily change. If it's possible at all to define an order, because while overall French is spoken more in Brussels, there are certainly areas with more Dutch speakers. So, in short: I'm not sure a language tag would work here. The languages should be known from the political entity it's located in, and since the places in areas with more than one official language are tagged with name:nl, name:fr etc, that's more than enough already, and a language tag gives unnecessary information. And it's especially a bad idea if it defines a certain order of importance. Ben ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 01:53:57PM +0200, Ben Laenen wrote: So, in short: I'm not sure a language tag would work here. The languages should be known from the political entity it's located in, and since the places in areas with more than one official language are tagged with name:nl, name:fr etc, that's more than enough already, and a language tag gives unnecessary information. And it's especially a bad idea if it defines a certain order of importance. But how does the system know which is the official language for that region? As far as I know, there's no function yet, so a language-tag would be useful (and could for example be applied to the administrative boundary as to save redundant information). greetings, Stephan -- Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich ,-. | Stephan Plepelits, | | Technische Universität Wien -Studium Informatik Raumplanung | | openstreetbrowser.org couchsurfing.com tubasis.at bl.mud.at | | sk...@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at - My Blog: http://plepe.at | `-' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 3:02 PM, Stephan Plepelits sk...@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at wrote: On Wed, May 06, 2009 at 01:53:57PM +0200, Ben Laenen wrote: So, in short: I'm not sure a language tag would work here. The languages should be known from the political entity it's located in, and since the places in areas with more than one official language are tagged with name:nl, name:fr etc, that's more than enough already, and a language tag gives unnecessary information. And it's especially a bad idea if it defines a certain order of importance. But how does the system know which is the official language for that region? As far as I know, there's no function yet, so a language-tag would be useful (and could for example be applied to the administrative boundary as to save redundant information). Regarding the official language, or more precisely, which of the available languages to use, I've always felt that this is a rendering issue, sort of. I mean, that this is a higher level knowledge that should be an input to the rendering software, in addition to the osm db, much like the rule file. This new knowledge, which might reside in the rule file, should not be a part of the osm db. Everyone with sufficient knowledge and skills can draw themselves a nice map in their favorite language using a custom rule file: Dutch people in Brussels can leave out French names, Hebrew speakers can omit the Arab names, and vice versa. Why do you even need an official language? I guess you want to draw a single map, here on this site, which will be good for almost everyone. My solution to this situation would be to add polygon constraints support to the renderers rule files. For example, drop this line in the mapnik/t...@hrules file: - for Brussels (=polygon cordinates) replace names with :fr - :nl I placed france first. Any angry Duch want to start an edit war? Go ahead, fight over the poor rule file, not over the db. I hope it would be easier to continue the collaboration efforts on the db while disagreeing on the rule file. This would also allow other forms of localizations per country. Maybe it is custom in a certain country to draw motorways in yellow - they can have that on the osm site just for them. Sorry for barging in, just wanted to throw in my ideal solution. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
I like the idea of the language element. I would like to add an extra precision in this case. I think the order of language should be by importance. Unfortunately, in this case namely the country, it is something highly political to even consider an order. But, in the case of a town located in the French speaking part, it would be logical to put something like fr;nl;da instead of nl;fr;da. The reverse would be true. Belgium is one interesting place to look at; Spain might be an other place to look at. The area around Barcelona is likely to be named in Catalan nowadays rather than Castellano. The order of language is likely to be a minefield because we are talking about something highly political, but it would allow to support the concept of native language, which I believe is very important. Things like different alphabet might be also interesting to look at even if it is likely that it can be subsumed under translation. I don't think the relatively peaceful and stable country of Belgium is at all the only example where ranking the languages would be quite political and/or controversial. What about in New Zealand where a treaty between the Queen and the tribes of New Zealand established the Maori tribes as equals, and their language, culture and courts as equals - yet only a small percentage of the population speaks it? What order do you put the languages? There would be a political uproar if the government of NZ tried to suggest a ranking. Or in Tibet, where before the 1950's invasion by the communists everyone speaks Tibetan, but now gradually more and more people are shipped in who speak Mandarin Chinese and will probably vastly outnumber the Tibetans in their homeland within our lifetime? People in the Basque country might be a little horrified if you put Castillian in front of Basque (and some might even object to it being in the list). Regions of India have many languages and subdialects, sometimes switching in a borderless fashion within a small region/space. Lastly what actual value would ranking the languages spoken in region by importance give the project - ie could it be shown on a map, or interpreted in any device that would be meaningful? I'm just curious and playing devil's advocate - happy to be convinced that there is true benefit to a proposal like this... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
Hello, Yes, it is potentially a minefield. I clearly indicated so previously. Well, I guess what matters is what you are going to do with the data. Someone earlier raised the very valid point that most of the problem could actually be solved by using the rendering in Mapnik by specifying the language you want the results in. Maybe I am worrying for no reason but I could see cases where it would be useful for geocoding and routing. I could be wrong, but if someone sends you an address, it is going to be most likely in the native language of the person. The way I see things is that the order would only apply to one named field. I don't see it as a replacement for an entire country. In the initial email by Nick Black, he asked what was the convention for the street in Kiev. He was using both addr:en and addr:ua apparently omitting the default addr. Personally, I would prefer to have the local language than English. I also saw that problem with the problem we had with Lithuania where people realized it was an import of Teleatlas because the language was using the old Russian names. As for your example for the Basque people, I think it is the same example as the Catalan one. I have seen how Castellano has been removed from signs over the past few years. Anyway, to some extent, the fact that we are using only name:Rue du moulin rouge is an implicit admission that we are using a native language. I just thought that in some countries it could result in having clearer result. Emilie Laffray Joe Richards wrote: I like the idea of the language element. I would like to add an extra precision in this case. I think the order of language should be by importance. Unfortunately, in this case namely the country, it is something highly political to even consider an order. But, in the case of a town located in the French speaking part, it would be logical to put something like fr;nl;da instead of nl;fr;da. The reverse would be true. Belgium is one interesting place to look at; Spain might be an other place to look at. The area around Barcelona is likely to be named in Catalan nowadays rather than Castellano. The order of language is likely to be a minefield because we are talking about something highly political, but it would allow to support the concept of native language, which I believe is very important. Things like different alphabet might be also interesting to look at even if it is likely that it can be subsumed under translation. I don't think the relatively peaceful and stable country of Belgium is at all the only example where ranking the languages would be quite political and/or controversial. What about in New Zealand where a treaty between the Queen and the tribes of New Zealand established the Maori tribes as equals, and their language, culture and courts as equals - yet only a small percentage of the population speaks it? What order do you put the languages? There would be a political uproar if the government of NZ tried to suggest a ranking. Or in Tibet, where before the 1950's invasion by the communists everyone speaks Tibetan, but now gradually more and more people are shipped in who speak Mandarin Chinese and will probably vastly outnumber the Tibetans in their homeland within our lifetime? People in the Basque country might be a little horrified if you put Castillian in front of Basque (and some might even object to it being in the list). Regions of India have many languages and subdialects, sometimes switching in a borderless fashion within a small region/space. Lastly what actual value would ranking the languages spoken in region by importance give the project - ie could it be shown on a map, or interpreted in any device that would be meaningful? I'm just curious and playing devil's advocate - happy to be convinced that there is true benefit to a proposal like this... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 06:48:33 Pierre-André Jacquod wrote: Hi, I think that is OK. It is at least how I am mapping in similar cases. regards Nick Black wrote: Hi Guys, Was there an agreed answer to this issue. I want to tag an address in Kyiv using both the English and Ukrainian street names. Sounds like I can do: addr:street:en:Tereschenkivska Street and addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська Is this best practice? If you see the addr:* tags as needing the complete address data on every object, then you can do as above. If you think like me and see addr:country as useless database pollution. Then addr:street is just there to link the object with the address to a nearby street. This nearby street will have the tags highway=* + name=Терещнкіівська + name:en=Tereschenkivska Street (+ maybe name:ua=Терещнкіівська) Then only the value of name= of the street needs to match the value of addr:street of the object with the address and you can do a more complex look-up to get all the multi-lingual versions of the address. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
Hi,
this is an interesting question. I have a slightly related question
regarding the naming of objects in OSM.
I was wondering in that case the :ua is actually needed since it is
actually the native language of the place. Wouldn't it make more sense
to have simply addr:street: and keep the one for English.
I am not sure that here a translation is actually needed. If you need to
go to an address, unless it is something extremely famous, you will be
inputting the local name not any foreign name.
So if this scenario was to prevail, ua and en suffix added, how do we
know that it is the native language?
I suspect that in most cases, the only language that you will find is
only the native language.
Emilie Laffray
Nick Black wrote:
Hi Guys,
Was there an agreed answer to this issue.
I want to tag an address in Kyiv using both the English and Ukrainian
street names.
Sounds like I can do:
addr:street:en:Tereschenkivska Street
and
addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська
Is this best practice?
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com
mailto:benlae...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday 15 March 2009, Tal wrote:
name:local_lang=fr - nl is indeed an interesting idea, that I
haven't thought of.
However, I ask myself if it's flexible enough.
It seems that for just a little more coding you get the much more
flexible {name:fr} - {name:nl} (with special escape combinations
\\, \{, \} ).
I think that mappers from Brussels and also other parts of the word
with strings comprised from two languages should add there insights.
Do they care about this problem? Are they willing to use such a
solution?
Only if it's actually rendering both names, and only if it applies
to an
area that automatically adds the local_lang=fr;nl tag to all objects
inside its boundaries (it's just a bad idea to tag every object with
what it's local language is, you can override with a tag on the object
itself if it's different).
I wouldn't do local_lang=fr - nl as the separator can always
vary for
the same object (you could have a dash, or a newline or just a
space, a
slash or a bullet or whatever), depending on what the person
making the
maps likes most.
But given the complexity of handling boundaries to add tags to the
objects I think we'll be doing name=Dutch name - French
name, name:nl=Dutch name, name:fr=French name in Brussels for a
long time to come.
Greetings
Ben
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
I would say it should be exactly the same as for the name-tag[1]. Local language: name=Foobar the way with the housenumbers get addr:street=Foobar if you have translations name:ua=Uaah then you can do addr:street:ua=Uaah [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names What might be interesting and worth a discussion: A tag to describe the default language of this object, e.g. language=en. This could als be several tags, e.g. name=België - Belgique - Belgien name:nl=België name:fr=Belgique name:da=Belgien (and some more) language=nl;fr;da- this would be new (I hope I got the languages right, sorry if not) Comments? greetings, Stephan -- Seid unbequem, seid Sand, nicht Öl im Getriebe der Welt! - Günther Eich ,-. | Stephan Plepelits, | | Technische Universität Wien -Studium Informatik Raumplanung | | openstreetbrowser.org couchsurfing.com tubasis.at bl.mud.at | | sk...@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at - My Blog: http://plepe.at | `-' ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 8:03 AM, Cartinus Sounds like I can do: addr:street:en:Tereschenkivska Street and addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська Is this best practice? ... This nearby street will have the tags highway=* + name=Терещнкіівська + name:en=Tereschenkivska Street (+ maybe name:ua=Терещнкіівська) Then only the value of name= of the street needs to match the value of addr:street of the object with the address and you can do a more complex look-up to get all the multi-lingual versions of the address. Hu! As far as I understood, this thread was about regions where local names are not obvious: 2009/3/6 Iván Sánchez Ortega i...@sanchezortega.es: Because, *sometimes*, the default name is different from the local name in the official language... or the official language in a zone may be contested. In other cases, and most of the time, the local name IS in the official language. So I don't understand why we should write name=Терещнкіівська + name:ua=Терещнкіівська or addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська I have the feeling that someone could believe by reading this thread that the recommended way to write all names everywhere is to enter twice the same: name=local name name:local_country_code=local name which is unnecessary excepted for the special multilingual zones as commented above. But I don't think Ukraine is in this case. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
Hello, Stephan Plepelits wrote: I would say it should be exactly the same as for the name-tag[1]. Local language: name=Foobar the way with the housenumbers get addr:street=Foobar if you have translations name:ua=Uaah then you can do addr:street:ua=Uaah [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bilingual_street_names I was actually thinking about anything that carries a name. In the example you have given me, you have partially answer the question that I was asking: name is expressed in the local language. If you want to add translation, you need to append :isolanguage to the named field. What might be interesting and worth a discussion: A tag to describe the default language of this object, e.g. language=en. This could als be several tags, e.g. name=België - Belgique - Belgien name:nl=België name:fr=Belgique name:da=Belgien (and some more) language=nl;fr;da- this would be new (I hope I got the languages right, sorry if not) Comments? I like the idea of the language element. I would like to add an extra precision in this case. I think the order of language should be by importance. Unfortunately, in this case namely the country, it is something highly political to even consider an order. But, in the case of a town located in the French speaking part, it would be logical to put something like fr;nl;da instead of nl;fr;da. The reverse would be true. Belgium is one interesting place to look at; Spain might be an other place to look at. The area around Barcelona is likely to be named in Catalan nowadays rather than Castellano. The order of language is likely to be a minefield because we are talking about something highly political, but it would allow to support the concept of native language, which I believe is very important. Things like different alphabet might be also interesting to look at even if it is likely that it can be subsumed under translation. Emilie Laffray signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
Hi,
I think that is OK. It is at least how I am mapping in similar cases.
regards
Nick Black wrote:
Hi Guys,
Was there an agreed answer to this issue.
I want to tag an address in Kyiv using both the English and Ukrainian
street names.
Sounds like I can do:
addr:street:en:Tereschenkivska Street
and
addr:street:ua:Терещнкіівська
Is this best practice?
On Mon, Mar 16, 2009 at 3:01 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com
mailto:benlae...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday 15 March 2009, Tal wrote:
name:local_lang=fr - nl is indeed an interesting idea, that I
haven't thought of.
However, I ask myself if it's flexible enough.
It seems that for just a little more coding you get the much more
flexible {name:fr} - {name:nl} (with special escape combinations
\\, \{, \} ).
I think that mappers from Brussels and also other parts of the word
with strings comprised from two languages should add there insights.
Do they care about this problem? Are they willing to use such a
solution?
Only if it's actually rendering both names, and only if it applies to an
area that automatically adds the local_lang=fr;nl tag to all objects
inside its boundaries (it's just a bad idea to tag every object with
what it's local language is, you can override with a tag on the object
itself if it's different).
I wouldn't do local_lang=fr - nl as the separator can always vary for
the same object (you could have a dash, or a newline or just a space, a
slash or a bullet or whatever), depending on what the person making the
maps likes most.
But given the complexity of handling boundaries to add tags to the
objects I think we'll be doing name=Dutch name - French
name, name:nl=Dutch name, name:fr=French name in Brussels for a
long time to come.
Greetings
Ben
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
Hi
1) This proposal will not help the Brussels map, where a similar need exists.
In Brussels they want the default map to show street names in France and
Dutch.
see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.77218lon=4.38126zoom=15layers=B000FTTT
for
a road with these tags:
name=Avenue de la Sapinière - Denneboslaan --- could be
{name:fr} - {name:nl}
name:fr=Avenue de la Sapinière
name:nl=Denneboslaan
A possibility would be to tag the language like: name:local_lang=fr - nl
where the separator is the one that has to be used for the
representation. (iso-codes are known, the rest is spearator)
2) Sometime an object (node/way/relation) contains more then one
translatable tag.
For example, a house address is a node with
addr:housenumber=12Alef- translatable
addr:street=Herzel - translatable
addr:city=Tel-Aviv - translatable
addr:country=IL
addr:full=- translatable
building=yes
name=Azrieli Shopping Mall - translatable
Do we want to add a single a tag for each translatable tag:
addr:housenumber:lang=de
addr:street:lang=de
addr:citylang=de
addr:full:lang=de
name:lang=de
or do we want a single tag to indicate the text labels for the entire
node/way/relation?
Aaargh
Ok I think the local language(s) is (are) the same for all description
of a node/way/relation. Then I think we should introduce a new tag, like
local_lang=xx and then tag name:xx=Germany addr:city:en=Tel-Aviv and
so on...
what do you think about it??
best regards
paj
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Sun, Mar 15, 2009 at 7:51 PM, Pierre-André Jacquod
pjacq...@alumni.ethz.ch wrote:
Hi
1) This proposal will not help the Brussels map, where a similar need exists.
In Brussels they want the default map to show street names in France and
Dutch.
see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.77218lon=4.38126zoom=15layers=B000FTTT
for
a road with these tags:
name=Avenue de la Sapinière - Denneboslaan --- could be
{name:fr} - {name:nl}
name:fr=Avenue de la Sapinière
name:nl=Denneboslaan
A possibility would be to tag the language like: name:local_lang=fr - nl
where the separator is the one that has to be used for the
representation. (iso-codes are known, the rest is spearator)
name:local_lang=fr - nl is indeed an interesting idea, that I
haven't thought of.
However, I ask myself if it's flexible enough.
It seems that for just a little more coding you get the much more
flexible {name:fr} - {name:nl} (with special escape combinations \\,
\{, \} ).
I think that mappers from Brussels and also other parts of the word
with strings comprised from two languages should add there insights.
Do they care about this problem? Are they willing to use such a
solution?
If they don't show interest, we can just forget about it, and go with
the less general solution you offered below.
2) Sometime an object (node/way/relation) contains more then one
translatable tag.
For example, a house address is a node with
addr:housenumber=12Alef - translatable
addr:street=Herzel - translatable
addr:city=Tel-Aviv - translatable
addr:country=IL
addr:full= - translatable
building=yes
name=Azrieli Shopping Mall - translatable
Do we want to add a single a tag for each translatable tag:
addr:housenumber:lang=de
addr:street:lang=de
addr:citylang=de
addr:full:lang=de
name:lang=de
or do we want a single tag to indicate the text labels for the entire
node/way/relation?
Aaargh
:)
Ok I think the local language(s) is (are) the same for all description
of a node/way/relation. Then I think we should introduce a new tag, like
local_lang=xx and then tag name:xx=Germany addr:city:en=Tel-Aviv and
so on...
what do you think about it??
I support the idea of a new local_lang=xx tag, exactly as you described it.
A possible problem could be if, for example, the default map should
show Arabic house addresses (addr:housenumber:ar tag) but french
building names (name:fr tag). This situation seems pretty ridiculous
to me, but it might be wiser to request just a little more feedback
from people who actually face these kind of problems.
This solution is good enough for the map of Israel. As far as I
understood from an earlier post of Michel Barakat, it's also good
enough for Lebanon (please correct me if I'm wrong!).
Can we please have some more ok / not-ok for this idea from some
mappers who map in several languages?
Tal
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
Hi, sorry, I have been of for some days.. What Pierre-André has suggested though, seems to be different to name in that rather than having name:local contain the name, what he's actually suggesting is that the value of name:local refers to the local language, perhaps better named as name:local_lang, so that for Germany there would be, for example, the following tags... place=country name:de=Deutschland name:en=Germany name:fr=Allemagne name:ja=ドイツ name:th=ประเทศเยอรมนี name:zh=德国 name:local=de Many things actually have names in more than one language on the map... Country names, city names, and in some parts of the world, virtually every named object have multiple language names... Thanks, you explain it better than me. I agree with you proposition name:local_lang would be better suited. How could we push this proposition further? This is strictly spoken not a new tag. Simply add a remark on the wiki-page or start a submission process? regards paj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
For my use, that proposal is pretty good. However, I'd like to discuss
two points.
1) This proposal will not help the Brussels map, where a similar need exists.
In Brussels they want the default map to show street names in France and Dutch.
see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.77218lon=4.38126zoom=15layers=B000FTTT
for
a road with these tags:
name=Avenue de la Sapinière - Denneboslaan --- could be
{name:fr} - {name:nl}
name:fr=Avenue de la Sapinière
name:nl=Denneboslaan
2) Sometime an object (node/way/relation) contains more then one
translatable tag.
For example, a house address is a node with
addr:housenumber=12Alef- translatable
addr:street=Herzel - translatable
addr:city=Tel-Aviv - translatable
addr:country=IL
addr:full=- translatable
building=yes
name=Azrieli Shopping Mall - translatable
Do we want to add a single a tag for each translatable tag:
addr:housenumber:lang=de
addr:street:lang=de
addr:citylang=de
addr:full:lang=de
name:lang=de
or do we want a single tag to indicate the text labels for the entire
node/way/relation?
Tal
On Sat Mar 14 12:39:42 GMT 2009, Pierre-André Jacquod
pjac...@lumni.ethz.ch wrote:
Hi,
sorry, I have been of for some days..
What Pierre-André has suggested though, seems to be different to name
in that rather than having name:local contain the name, what he's
actually suggesting is that the value of name:local refers to the local
language, perhaps better named as name:local_lang, so that for Germany
there would be, for example, the following tags...
place=country
name:de=Deutschland
name:en=Germany
name:fr=Allemagne
name:ja=ドイツ
name:th=ประเทศเยอรมนี
name:zh=德国
name:local=de
Many things actually have names in more than one language on the map...
Country names, city names, and in some parts of the world, virtually
every named object have multiple language names...
Thanks, you explain it better than me. I agree with you proposition
name:local_lang would be better suited.
How could we push this proposition further? This is strictly spoken not
a new tag. Simply add a remark on the wiki-page or start a submission
process?
regards
paj
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Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:51:28 +0100, Pierre-André Jacquod pjacq...@alumni.ethz.ch wrote: A possibility would be to never use name=, but only name:XX= and have a tag name:local=XX in order to indicate which is the local one. For rendering, a default rule could be that if there is only one name:XX=xxx without name:local=... then it will use the name:XX whatever XX is. Your name:local is the same as the name everyone is already using. Few things actually have names in more then one language on the map. Marcus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
2009/3/9 marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 14:51:28 +0100, Pierre-André Jacquod pjacq...@alumni.ethz.ch wrote: A possibility would be to never use name=, but only name:XX= and have a tag name:local=XX in order to indicate which is the local one. For rendering, a default rule could be that if there is only one name:XX=xxx without name:local=... then it will use the name:XX whatever XX is. Your name:local is the same as the name everyone is already using. Few things actually have names in more then one language on the map. What Pierre-André has suggested though, seems to be different to name in that rather than having name:local contain the name, what he's actually suggesting is that the value of name:local refers to the local language, perhaps better named as name:local_lang, so that for Germany there would be, for example, the following tags... place=country name:de=Deutschland name:en=Germany name:fr=Allemagne name:ja=ドイツ name:th=ประเทศเยอรมนี name:zh=德国 name:local=de Many things actually have names in more than one language on the map... Country names, city names, and in some parts of the world, virtually every named object have multiple language names... d ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
As Michel pointed out, we have the same issue in Belgium, especially in Brussels which is officially bi-lingual, i.e. all street names have both a french and dutch name. To bypass the problem of having to retype both the name:nl anf name:fr in name, I've implemented in Merkaartor a feature which allows tag templates to refer to other tags. I have a template for Brussels where I have name = $[name:fr] - $[name:nl] I think this could be a feature of the API to recognize this kind of construct, and construct the name tag on request. This would have the advantage of not bloating the database with unneeded tags. - Chris - On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 6:48 AM, Michel Barakat bmic...@gmail.com wrote: We're facing a similar issue for mapping in neighboring Lebanon. In addition to English, we use Arabic and French so we end up having four name tags: 'name', 'name:en', 'name:fr', 'name:ar' The name tag is a duplicate of one of the three languages depending on the road or POI in question, we have some POIs with English names, French or Arabic, not accounting for some two of three other languages used in certain areas. Similarly to the example of Belgium, canceling the 'name' tag all together, and defaulting to the country language is not suitable. Language should be set per element. But I prefer not to enter the same name twice, but to point the name tag to the name:lang. I support the idea of not having to repeat twice the same name. It is an extra cost that might incur additional unnecessary risk of error when creating or modifying the tags. A possibility would be to never use name=, but only name:XX= and have a tag name:local=XX in order to indicate which is the local one. For rendering, a default rule could be that if there is only one name:XX=xxx without name:local=... then it will use the name:XX whatever XX is. Good idea but we should make sure that name:local=XX is correct, that is 'name:xx' exists among the possible name choices. Otherwise you will end up with inconsistency. In terms of deployment, I don't think the community will approve canceling the 'name' tag completely. So an alternative plausible solution could be to have a mechanism which refers to one of the name:xx, such as Tal has suggested. We could agree on some escape character that is used inside the tag content ($ or \ or whatever is not commonly used). We would have something like that: name=$(name:fr) name:fr=French Here name:en=English Here name:ar=Arabic Here Another possibility, which looks more like a hack, is to simply describe the language of the 'name' tag. So we could have a tag 'name:local=xx' describing the language of the 'name' tag. For the same example above, it would look like that: name=French Here name:local=fr name:en=English Here name:ar=Arabic Here In that case, we would not need the 'name:fr' tag to be explicitly expressed. The rendered though would need to be modified to realize its existence. Cheers Michel On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Tal tal@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Pierre-André Jacquod pjacq...@alumni.ethz.ch wrote: I would, however, like to set a default language to the renderer using name=$(name:he) or something equivalent, for the default international map on the osm site. I am not aware of such a feature for the current tools. I fear a problem could be that $(name:he) is also a valid name somewhere else in the world (with an other font than Latin...) I believe otherwise. I think that in the age of unicode $(name:he) will always be the same, regardless of the font you use, as long as you stick to unicode. I believe that this site uses utf-8 which is a unicode encoding. Therefore, $(name:he) will always be a dollar sign and parenthesis around some Latin letters. I like this idea! ___ newbies mailing list newb...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
[...] Hi, In Israel we try to tag all names with name,name:he,name:en, and we put the same value in name and name:he. For example: name=1234 name:he=1234 name:en=abcd Is there a feature recognized by the renderer software packages that allows me to write something like this: name=$(name:he) name:he=1234 name:en=abcd [] Hebrew is my native language, and as far as I'm concerned the whole world can and should be mapped exclusively using the Hebrew alphabet ;) (und auch natuerlich ein bisschen Deutsch, die auch eine schoene sprache ist) As I see it, using the name tag is simply asking for trouble, and one need to seek a coherent and complete solution, which the name:lang system offer. I would, however, like to set a default language to the renderer using name=$(name:he) or something equivalent, for the default international map on the osm site. I am not aware of such a feature for the current tools. I fear a problem could be that $(name:he) is also a valid name somewhere else in the world (with an other font than Latin...) A possibility would be to never use name=, but only name:XX= and have a tag name:local=XX in order to indicate which is the local one. For rendering, a default rule could be that if there is only one name:XX=xxx without name:local=... then it will use the name:XX whatever XX is. I cross-posted to talk, if someone has other idea / better proposition. regards paj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-newbies] avoid repeating the name tag twice
We're facing a similar issue for mapping in neighboring Lebanon. In addition to English, we use Arabic and French so we end up having four name tags: 'name', 'name:en', 'name:fr', 'name:ar' The name tag is a duplicate of one of the three languages depending on the road or POI in question, we have some POIs with English names, French or Arabic, not accounting for some two of three other languages used in certain areas. Similarly to the example of Belgium, canceling the 'name' tag all together, and defaulting to the country language is not suitable. Language should be set per element. But I prefer not to enter the same name twice, but to point the name tag to the name:lang. I support the idea of not having to repeat twice the same name. It is an extra cost that might incur additional unnecessary risk of error when creating or modifying the tags. A possibility would be to never use name=, but only name:XX= and have a tag name:local=XX in order to indicate which is the local one. For rendering, a default rule could be that if there is only one name:XX=xxx without name:local=... then it will use the name:XX whatever XX is. Good idea but we should make sure that name:local=XX is correct, that is 'name:xx' exists among the possible name choices. Otherwise you will end up with inconsistency. In terms of deployment, I don't think the community will approve canceling the 'name' tag completely. So an alternative plausible solution could be to have a mechanism which refers to one of the name:xx, such as Tal has suggested. We could agree on some escape character that is used inside the tag content ($ or \ or whatever is not commonly used). We would have something like that: name=$(name:fr) name:fr=French Here name:en=English Here name:ar=Arabic Here Another possibility, which looks more like a hack, is to simply describe the language of the 'name' tag. So we could have a tag 'name:local=xx' describing the language of the 'name' tag. For the same example above, it would look like that: name=French Here name:local=fr name:en=English Here name:ar=Arabic Here In that case, we would not need the 'name:fr' tag to be explicitly expressed. The rendered though would need to be modified to realize its existence. Cheers Michel On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 11:40 PM, Tal tal@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 3:51 PM, Pierre-André Jacquod pjacq...@alumni.ethz.ch wrote: I would, however, like to set a default language to the renderer using name=$(name:he) or something equivalent, for the default international map on the osm site. I am not aware of such a feature for the current tools. I fear a problem could be that $(name:he) is also a valid name somewhere else in the world (with an other font than Latin...) I believe otherwise. I think that in the age of unicode $(name:he) will always be the same, regardless of the font you use, as long as you stick to unicode. I believe that this site uses utf-8 which is a unicode encoding. Therefore, $(name:he) will always be a dollar sign and parenthesis around some Latin letters. I like this idea! ___ newbies mailing list newb...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/newbies ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
