Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] How to put a name tag on an area with more than one type?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re:  "why the OSM Foundation has a small budget and can't afford to hire
more than a cursory staff for the most critical needs"

This conversation was on the Tagging list, but I'm responding here to keep
on-topic.

It is worth mentioning that the small size of the OSMF organisation and
budget is considered a positive choice, rather than a handicap, by many
mappers who want OpenStreetMap to stay a volunteer-run, open, independent
community.

OpenStreetMap runs mostly based on volunteer mapper time, plus some
important volunteer time to provide services like functioning data servers,
geocoding and routing apps, and renderings. Only a small amount of money is
needed to keep everything running, and funding from just a part of the
mapper and database user community has been enough for this in the past.

In contrast, Wikimedia has a huge budget and a big organisation, but all
the control and decision-making is done by a small group. The large
expenses require extensive fundraising activities.

Some mappers and perhaps some on the current OSMF board would like to see
lots more funding to make it possible to do things like have more map
styles available, improved editing applications, faster servers, etc. - but
more funding means more fundraising and a bigger organisation and so on.
Once you start that, it's hard to cut off the funding, so there's a big
risk of fundraising suddenly drops off due to a recession or changes in
corporate priorities.

The current "do-ocracy" has disadvantages too, because it tends to
prioritize the interests of people who have the ability to do things on
computers:

Re: "when you speak of "OSM", you are not speaking to some big corporate
entity with a glass lobby, a receptionist, and someone to answer the phone
-- you are speaking to a loose tribe of individual volunteers that are
collaborating on a free map of the world."

And it's that way due to choices that this community has made over time. It
could be different, and might change in the future, based on the choices we
all make.

Personally I see benefits to both models, but the risks are much bigger on
one side.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 2:44 PM Brian M. Sperlongano 
wrote:

> I agree with Mateusz that the wiki IS the project's standard document for
> the meaning of tagging (from the perspective of data consumers) and how to
> tag (from the perspective of mappers).  Note that both perspectives are
> important.  But to address the specific point, there is no standard
> document for renderer implementers, because there is no such thing as a
> standard renderer implementation.  A renderer (something that turns data
> into a map) is just one of very many ways to use and visualize geospatial
> data.
>
> I know you did not intend to criticize the volunteers that make this
> project happen, but consider that when you dismiss the wiki as "no
> documentation", it can be interpreted as dismissing the hard work of
> countless people that volunteered their time to develop (and translate!) a
> large and complex documentation base.  Most software developers find
> documentation to be a chore and the last thing they deal with.  That is why
> as someone who has the skills, time, and interest to contribute, I've
> expended considerable effort improving the wiki's tagging documentation,
> and when I've found gaps or problems, I've worked to draft and advance
> proposals to address the deficiencies.  I saw a need and began filling it,
> and my contributions to that documentation are something I am proud of.
>
> For a project that provides its only product for free, it should be
> obvious why the OSM Foundation has a small budget and can't afford to hire
> more than a cursory staff for the most critical needs.  Consider changing
> your perspective to "what am I able to contribute to make this project
> stronger?" rather than "here are the things that are wrong".
>
> As the author of a product that consumes OSM data, I am grateful to all of
> the programmers, mappers, and technologists that have built the various
> pieces of this ecosystem without which my product wouldn't exist.  It would
> be awfully presumptuous of me to complain that this thing provided to me
> entirely for free is in some way lacking, and I'm glad I am able to "give
> back" in this small way.
>
> This is just a gentle reminder that when you speak of "OSM", you are not
> speaking to some big corporate entity with a glass lobby, a receptionist,
> and someone to answer the phone -- you are speaking to a loose tribe of
> individual volunteers that are collaborating on a free map of the world.
>
> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 4:15 PM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
> tagg...@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dec 14, 2020, 22:03 by and...@torger.se:
>>
>> Ok, understood. However as far as I know OSM lacks a standard document
>> for render implementors to actually know how data should be interpreted.
>>
>> In part it is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/ in part it is 

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] "Limitations on mapping private information" - wiki page

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Yes, I am replying to an old message (I finally processed it).

It is about editing 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Limitations_on_mapping_private_information
to bring it closer to community consensus.


Sep 16, 2020, 15:43 by bkil.hu...@gmail.com:

> Could someone perhaps clarify why this page resides in the main
> namespace and not in the responsible proposer's user space?
>
>> Do not name individuals in OpenStreetMap tags, unless their name is on a 
>> business sign posted towards the street, or part of the business name and 
>> available in public records.
>>
>
> What if the name of the operator is printed on each receipt when you
> shop there or a certificate is placed on the wall that shows it? We
> usually add that to operator=*.
>
I changed this sentence to
"Do not name individuals in OpenStreetMap tags, unless their name is on a
business sign posted towards the street, or part of the business name 
or otherwise publicly available. For example tagging operator=*
based on data printed on receipts is normal."

> Indeed I think that the article confuses mapped things that are
> worthless and mapped things that are dangerous (according to GDPR).
>
I would not say confuses, it is just that for private data
"it is not ethical to map", "it is pointless to map this" and
"it is illegal to map this" often applies together.


> For example, the reason why we don't map private washing machines is
> that its location and capacity is not information that is in public
> interest (hence why it is not a POI). Another reason that it fails the
> verifiability criterion: if I want to check that the position and type
> information of the washing machine is still accurate, I need to ring
> the doorbell and be invited in to see for myself, but it is not
> realistic that an owner would invite dozens of potentially malicious
> random people into their house just for this.
>
> Even if the object would be visible from the outside, it is of no use
> to 99.% of individuals if the owner does not let me do my laundry
> there. If a TV is fully and clearly visible from the outside through
> the window, it _may_ serve a public utility of entertainment if you
> can lip read, but you need to ring the doorbell each time you want to
> switch channels...
>


> Private parking and driveways are acceptable because it hints at which
> way the entrance is - helping delivery personal and guests alike. I've
> mapped some very interesting hilly terrain where this can be
> especially useful, as roads were pretty dense and the road towards
> where the entrance is was not trivial and a failed guess could cost
> you a few more minutes of walking or driving for each house.
>
I think that there is an universal agreement that private driveways and
parkings are mappable.

> Private swimming pools aren't that interesting but people seem to
> enjoy tracing them. Maybe in case of emergency they could be used as a
> nearby water source by the fire brigade?
>
Yes, swimming pools can be and are used by firefighters.
For example in USA during wildfires helicopters lifting water
from private swimming pools is something that happens.

> From the privacy section, am I reading correctly that you suggest that
> you find it acceptable to map each tomb in a cemetery by name?
>
Yes, I would expect it to be acceptable and I mapped some graves
together with inscription on them (typically ones of my family
so that it would be possible for me to locate this graves on my own).

For example https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/591130

Though if there is consensus that it is not OK then I would stop
doing this.

> I think a lot of considerations are missing in this article other than
> those stemming from the GDPR, like military and national
> considerations. You also do not mention that there exist regions where
> mapping activities are forbidden by the law and punishable by prison
> sentence.
>
Note article title "Limitations on mapping private information".

I am aware that some of my OSM activity that I did was breaking laws
in China, Russia, India and probably also North Korea and Pakistan.

(not sure whatever this countries consider it as breaking their law if 
I did it in an other country)

Describing how OSM is not respecting this laws and how OSM mappers
may be impacted may be useful (maybe was done already) but it is 
not related to private information.

> And anyway other than describing "what is worthless to map",
> I think you are trying to basically gather "mapping ethics"
>
Partially yes.

>  and maybe
> this should be better be done in Wikipedia because it does not only
> concern OpenStreetMap, but any mapping provider.
>
This would be out of scope of WIkipedia and I am interested in consensus of
OSM mappers, not more wide consensus/opinion.


> On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 3:15 PM Niels Elgaard Larsen  wrote:
>
>>
>> Mateusz Konieczny via talk:
>> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Limitations_on_mapping_private_information
>> >
>> > Do you think 

Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging health facilities offering COVID testing

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

I would not map them myself or encourage others,
but I would say that it is mappable.

Oct 8, 2020, 18:26 by talk@openstreetmap.org:

> Where I am, there is wide variety in what days/hours such sites are 
> available, whether they are free or have a cost, whether you need an 
> appointment, and how temporary they are. Some are only around for a few 
> weeks, and I would expect them to last maximum 1 yr. Further, the use is very 
> limited since international travel is way down (and you should not be 
> traveling if you suspect you may have covid!) Thus I do not think they are 
> good candidates for mapping into OSM. A separate layer overlaid on OSM on a 
> dedicated website seems better. 
>
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 7:52 AM Antonin Delpeuch (lists) <> 
> li...@antonin.delpeuch.eu> > wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>  
>>  I am wondering if and how it would be appropriate to map COVID testing
>>  facilities. I have seen various national maps but given that they are
>>  especially useful during international travel, I think it would be very
>>  useful to have them in OSM.
>>  
>>  I have seen the use of "healthcare:speciality=covid-19", for instance on
>>  this node:
>>  
>>  >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7368671692
>>  
>>  But according to TagInfo there are only two uses of that tag value.
>>  Surely other people must have been tagging this by now, but how?
>>  
>>  Note that I am primarily interested in mapping the places where samples
>>  are collected, not the laboratories where the samples are actually
>>  analyzed. I think the former is more interesting for the general public.
>>  
>>  Thanks,
>>  
>>  
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>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging health facilities offering COVID testing

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Do., 8. Okt. 2020 um 18:31 Uhr schrieb Kathleen Lu via talk <
talk@openstreetmap.org>:

> Where I am, there is wide variety in what days/hours such sites are
> available, whether they are free or have a cost, whether you need an
> appointment, and how temporary they are. Some are only around for a few
> weeks, and I would expect them to last maximum 1 yr. Further, the use is
> very limited since international travel is way down (and you should not be
> traveling if you suspect you may have covid!) Thus I do not think they are
> good candidates for mapping into OSM. A separate layer overlaid on OSM on a
> dedicated website seems better.
>


I agree with Kathleen that there is a wide variety of places. I would
distinguish at least 3 types of facilities. I also hope these are not
lasting more than a year, but for me this would be a sufficient long time
period to consider mapping. At least in bigger cities it is not only
interesting for travelling people (of which there are now much fewer) but
due to the dynamic situation and the variety of options it might also be
useful for locals.Provided that we can reach sufficient completeness and
useful distinctions/descriptions.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging health facilities offering COVID testing

[Kathleen Lu via talk]

Where I am, there is wide variety in what days/hours such sites are
available, whether they are free or have a cost, whether you need an
appointment, and how temporary they are. Some are only around for a few
weeks, and I would expect them to last maximum 1 yr. Further, the use is
very limited since international travel is way down (and you should not be
traveling if you suspect you may have covid!) Thus I do not think they are
good candidates for mapping into OSM. A separate layer overlaid on OSM on a
dedicated website seems better.

On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 7:52 AM Antonin Delpeuch (lists) <
li...@antonin.delpeuch.eu> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am wondering if and how it would be appropriate to map COVID testing
> facilities. I have seen various national maps but given that they are
> especially useful during international travel, I think it would be very
> useful to have them in OSM.
>
> I have seen the use of "healthcare:speciality=covid-19", for instance on
> this node:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7368671692
>
> But according to TagInfo there are only two uses of that tag value.
> Surely other people must have been tagging this by now, but how?
>
> Note that I am primarily interested in mapping the places where samples
> are collected, not the laboratories where the samples are actually
> analyzed. I think the former is more interesting for the general public.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
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[OSM-talk] Tagging health facilities offering COVID testing

[Antonin Delpeuch (lists)]

Hi,

I am wondering if and how it would be appropriate to map COVID testing
facilities. I have seen various national maps but given that they are
especially useful during international travel, I think it would be very
useful to have them in OSM.

I have seen the use of "healthcare:speciality=covid-19", for instance on
this node:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/7368671692

But according to TagInfo there are only two uses of that tag value.
Surely other people must have been tagging this by now, but how?

Note that I am primarily interested in mapping the places where samples
are collected, not the laboratories where the samples are actually
analyzed. I think the former is more interesting for the general public.

Thanks,


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Dave F via talk]

On 25/09/2020 17:53, Andy Townsend wrote:

On 25/09/2020 17:43, Dave F via talk wrote:

Nick's description is "overgrown, unclear, prone to flooding"

These are all subjective interpretations.
There are many official PROW's in those conditions.


(for the benefit of people outside of England and Wales a "public 
right of way" is a special legal designation here)


To be fair, what Nick was talking about wasn't a PROW though.


Hmm.. Disagree He made no mention in the first paragraph, & he gave just 
one example which happened to not be official.

I mentioned PROWs as another example, not as an absolute.

DaveF

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Nick Whitelegg]

Thanks for the replies, will probably go with something like overgrown=yes.

The path concerned has not been closed - it looks like a forestry track which 
was formerly used by vehicles but hasn't for many years. However, unlike many 
of the paths in the same area it doesn't appear to be popular as a 'desire 
path' and is definitely less pleasurable to negotiate than many of the others 
in the area. Just wanted some way of distinguishing this path from others in 
the area in active use, so that those seeking a 'nice walk in the woods' could 
avoid it!

Nick


From: Andrew Harvey 
Sent: 26 September 2020 03:58
To: Talk Openstreetmap 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

Abandoned is a tricky concept for a path, what make is abandoned? If there is a 
sign up saying track closed or keep out for re-vegetation it's clear, but 
otherwise it's less clear.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 at 01:36, Andy Townsend 
mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Once it's definitely disappeared, I'd have no qualms about deleting it 
altogether.  Sometimes I update the tags on a path before deleting it to 
something like "note=nothing on this alignment any more".

If there is still some evidence on the ground, I think using the lifecycle 
prefix is preferable because usually it takes a few years for a path to be 
completely revegetated and provides a more accurate picture of what's happening 
on the ground and helps data consumers track the it through the different 
states.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 at 02:06, Mike Thompson 
mailto:miketh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I use:
disused:highway=path/footway/etc
or
abandoned:highway=path/footway/etc

I have used that too where it really is closed via signage, but if it's just 
overgrown from lack of use, it could still be in active use.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 at 02:55, Andy Townsend 
mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Indeed - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/overgrown has some usage

I didn't know about that, usually I've just been adding description=overgrown, 
but that tag is better. It's in need of some discussion and documentation 
though to make it not subjective.

I suggest overgrown=yes would apply if you're constantly brushing against the 
vegetation (not just occasionally but to the the point that you're almost 
always in contact with the vegetation for the whole segment).

Then light if it has negligible affect on walking pace, dense if it slows you 
down considerably.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Andrew Harvey]

Abandoned is a tricky concept for a path, what make is abandoned? If there
is a sign up saying track closed or keep out for re-vegetation it's clear,
but otherwise it's less clear.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 at 01:36, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Once it's definitely disappeared, I'd have no qualms about deleting it
> altogether.  Sometimes I update the tags on a path before deleting it to
> something like "note=nothing on this alignment any more".
>

If there is still some evidence on the ground, I think using the lifecycle
prefix is preferable because usually it takes a few years for a path to be
completely revegetated and provides a more accurate picture of what's
happening on the ground and helps data consumers track the it through the
different states.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 at 02:06, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> I use:
> disused:highway=path/footway/etc
> or
> abandoned:highway=path/footway/etc
>

I have used that too where it really is closed via signage, but if it's
just overgrown from lack of use, it could still be in active use.

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 at 02:55, Andy Townsend  wrote:

> Indeed - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/overgrown has some usage
>

I didn't know about that, usually I've just been adding
description=overgrown, but that tag is better. It's in need of some
discussion and documentation though to make it not subjective.

I suggest overgrown=yes would apply if you're constantly brushing against
the vegetation (not just occasionally but to the the point that you're
almost always in contact with the vegetation for the whole segment).

Then light if it has negligible affect on walking pace, dense if it slows
you down considerably.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/09/2020 17:43, Dave F via talk wrote:

Nick's description is "overgrown, unclear, prone to flooding"

These are all subjective interpretations.
There are many official PROW's in those conditions.


(for the benefit of people outside of England and Wales a "public right 
of way" is a special legal designation here)


To be fair, what Nick was talking about wasn't a PROW though.


It doesn't mean they're "abandoned" or "disused".
It doesn't mean someone isn't prepared to wade or hack their way through.

Accurate descriptions of the path's state(s) are required. Tags 
something like: Overgrown=yes, flooding=intermittent  etc.


Indeed - https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/overgrown has some usage 
and and https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/flood_prone has a lot of 
usage.  https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/trail_visibility has even 
more.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Dave F via talk]

Nick's description is "overgrown, unclear, prone to flooding"

These are all subjective interpretations.
There are many official PROW's in those conditions.
It doesn't mean they're "abandoned" or "disused".
It doesn't mean someone isn't prepared to wade or hack their way through.

Accurate descriptions of the path's state(s) are required. Tags 
something like: Overgrown=yes, flooding=intermittent  etc.


DaveF

On 25/09/2020 17:03, Mike Thompson wrote:

I use:
disused:highway=path/footway/etc
or
abandoned:highway=path/footway/etc

If it is totally gone, I still tend to leave the way with "note=There 
is no longer a path here, the land manager restored the area to its 
natural state sometime before ", (or whatever is appropriate) 
this provides some assurance that someone doesn't add it back to OSM 
using and old source (imagery, GPX tracks, etc).


Mike

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 9:36 AM Andy Townsend > wrote:


On 25/09/2020 16:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:

Hi,

Wondering if there was a consensus on tagging an abandoned, no
longer very usable path (e.g. a path which has become overgrown
or is unclear and prone to flooding in wetter periods). Something
like "path=abandoned"?


My 2p:


Perhaps use "trail_visibility" through the lifecycle of the path
as it changes from "being obvious on the ground" to "not being
there at all"?


Once it's definitely disappeared, I'd have no qualms about
deleting it altogether.  Sometimes I update the tags on a path
before deleting it to something like "note=nothing on this
alignment any more".


If it's still visible on imagery, I'd be tempted to leave that
note there (without a highway tag) to stop someone retracing it.


Best Regards,


Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Mike Thompson]

I use:
disused:highway=path/footway/etc
or
abandoned:highway=path/footway/etc

If it is totally gone, I still tend to leave the way with "note=There is no
longer a path here, the land manager restored the area to its natural state
sometime before ", (or whatever is appropriate) this provides some
assurance that someone doesn't add it back to OSM using and old source
(imagery, GPX tracks, etc).

Mike

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 9:36 AM Andy Townsend  wrote:

> On 25/09/2020 16:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Wondering if there was a consensus on tagging an abandoned, no longer very
> usable path (e.g. a path which has become overgrown or is unclear and prone
> to flooding in wetter periods). Something like "path=abandoned"?
>
> My 2p:
>
>
> Perhaps use "trail_visibility" through the lifecycle of the path as it
> changes from "being obvious on the ground" to "not being there at all"?
>
>
> Once it's definitely disappeared, I'd have no qualms about deleting it
> altogether.  Sometimes I update the tags on a path before deleting it to
> something like "note=nothing on this alignment any more".
>
>
> If it's still visible on imagery, I'd be tempted to leave that note there
> (without a highway tag) to stop someone retracing it.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
> Andy
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/09/2020 16:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:

Hi,

Wondering if there was a consensus on tagging an abandoned, no longer 
very usable path (e.g. a path which has become overgrown or is unclear 
and prone to flooding in wetter periods). Something like "path=abandoned"?



My 2p:


Perhaps use "trail_visibility" through the lifecycle of the path as it 
changes from "being obvious on the ground" to "not being there at all"?



Once it's definitely disappeared, I'd have no qualms about deleting it 
altogether.  Sometimes I update the tags on a path before deleting it to 
something like "note=nothing on this alignment any more".



If it's still visible on imagery, I'd be tempted to leave that note 
there (without a highway tag) to stop someone retracing it.



Best Regards,


Andy


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[OSM-talk] Tagging an abandoned path?

[Nick Whitelegg]

Hi,

Wondering if there was a consensus on tagging an abandoned, no longer very 
usable path (e.g. a path which has become overgrown or is unclear and prone to 
flooding in wetter periods). Something like "path=abandoned"?

There's a case like that near where I am in which a path was mapped in the 
early days of OSM but has now fallen into disuse. It isn't an official path, 
just a minor path through some woods on land with public access. My gut feeling 
would be to tag as "path=abandoned" to signal that it isn't really usable as a 
path anymore (so that renderers and routers can warn the user about it or even 
ignore it, for instance) but just wondering if anyone else has come across this 
situation.

Thanks,
Nick



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Call for verification (Was: Re: VANDALISM !)

[pangoSE]

Thanks for sharing. I have no intention of contacting the user in question. It 
was just an illustrative example.

I don't know why this was posted to the tagging list. I intend to keep this 
discussion on the talk list so please respond there to keep the discussion 
together.


Cj Malone  skrev: (22 augusti 2020 
10:51:10 CEST)
>On Sat, 2020-08-22 at 09:32 +0200, pangoSE wrote:
>> Building upon it can lead to strange things. E.g. 
>>
>https://www.nyteknik.se/popularteknik/mystisk-jatteskrapa-dok-upp-i-flygsimulator-6999771
>>  (building:levels=212 was entered erroneously and committed to the
>> database without any kind of QA follow-up. If someone knows the
>> osmid I would like to know how long this error was present in OSM)
>
>https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/712475718/history
>
>1 - It was introduced by a novice mapper, presumably as a typeo.
>
>2 - Nikolas von Randow fixed it about 9 months later, presumably with
>some kind of QA tool (maybe just a overpass query).
>
>3 - Another local novice mapper also edited it, and fixed another issue
>at the same time. Presumably noticed via a rendered map.
>
>
>Before criticising the mapper, it should be noted that it was a novice
>mapper and the existing building data in the area isn't of great
>quality anyway. This wasn't a regression. And accidents happen anyway,
>I've done a similar thing via StreetComplete where I entered the house
>number in the building levels quest.
>
>The big companies doing QA on OSM data (Mapbox and Facebook) have a
>high focus on vandalism. They are trying to stop "Jewtropolis" from
>ever happening again.
>
>
>
>___
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] [Talk-us] VANDALISM !

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Thanks to DWG for taking this action.

Aug 22, 2020, 03:35 by claysmal...@gmail.com:

> For those who aren't following, the DWG recently decided on a two-day ban for 
> the person who posted this, for the exact behavior they're exhibiting right 
> now: > https://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/3850
>
> jdd 3, please take a break. You have better things to do.
>
> I look forward to when you demonstrate the ability to communicate 
> collaboratively.
>
> Best,
> Clay
>
> On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 6:08 PM 80hnhtv4agou--- via Talk-us <> 
> talk...@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> FYI;
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vandalism
>>  
>> Purposeful removal or degradation of data that are known to be correct,
>>  
>> Deliberate adding incorrect data;
>>  
>> People who revert other people's work should expect to be able to 
>> demonstrate that the reversion was well reasoned and proportionate to the 
>> issue.
>>  
>> Not There;
>> Unverified>>  >>  >> if someone puts in 400 + >>  unverified >> tags in one 
>> edit,
>>  
>> If someone reverts, 400 + edits,  in one edit, done on good faith by others 
>> over the years to conform to there way of thinking,
>>  
>> If someone deletes, 400 + edits,  in one edit, done on good faith by others 
>> over the years to conform to there way of thinking,
>>  
>> If someone refuses to let others, edit because they have taken over that 
>> type edit, all bus stops in the same area,
>> all train stations in the same area, all boundaries in the same area.
>>  
>> Edits that do not conform to the subject wiki. 
>>  
>> if someone downloads data that will create one mulitipolygon, against all 
>> wikis
>>  
>> Also there is no wiki on unverified edits.
>>  
>>  
>> ___
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>>  >> talk...@openstreetmap.org
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Yves]

I think one should not put a particular separator in the tag in the hope to 
have a label drawn as such on a map.
If a separator like ; is used, it's easy enough for the renderer to concatenate 
values with a '-' , a ' ', write each name on a separate line or whatever.
Otherwise, don't use a 'name' tag, but rather a 'label' tag, the intent will be 
more clear.
Yves 

Le 29 février 2020 14:03:36 GMT+01:00, Jo  a écrit :
>'-' might be used in the name itself, ' - ' never will be. I think
>readability is better with ' - ' than with ' / ', but I guess it's a
>matter
>of taste.
>
>Jo
>
>On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:46 PM Yves  wrote:
>
>> The wiki description is clear enough:
>> name: in general, the most prominent signposted name or the most
>common
>> name in the local language(s)
>>
>> No plural is used, and for a point in the middle of the sea, one may
>have
>> a hard time to find locals.
>> I'd say that puri-lingual name(s) with a separator makes sense, but
>in
>> another tag. That way, people using the data hoping that the name tag
>> follows the definition won't be misleaded.
>> In the absence of the tag name, they can use whatever fallback they
>choose
>> to. Be it name:xx or this new tag for several bordering languages.
>> And yes, the complete absence of the name tag does not bother me at
>all.
>> Yves
>> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

btw:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Shared_boundary_features

On 29/02/2020 08:03, Jo wrote:
'-' might be used in the name itself, ' - ' never will be. I think 
readability is better with ' - ' than with ' / ', but I guess it's a 
matter of taste.


apparently, of regional taste.  in Morocco they don't separate 
(different alphabets), also the Canale di Sicilia has no separator 
Italian-Arabic, in Slovenia they use '/', in Südtirol-Alto Adige they 
use '-'.  OSM says '/', and suggests ordering alphabetically.  I've 
thrown two edits into the map, Gulf of Trieste and Gulf of Venezia, and 
explained why I put Italian first in the changeset comment.  I would 
like locals from Ex-Yugoslavia to review, and decide if they feel 
comfortable with that, or if they insist in the alphabetic ordering, if 
Croatian insist in having their language appear also in the Gulf of 
Trieste, if we should consider Slovenia as bordering with the Gulf of 
Venezia.  I would say it's important to hear locals.


Mario


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Florimond Berthoux]

Le sam. 29 févr. 2020 à 13:46, Yves  a écrit :

> The wiki description is clear enough:
> name: in general, the most prominent signposted name or the most common
> name in the local language(s)
>

Good to see that you didn't forget the "(s)" at the end ;)
And the line before use plural:
«Name*s* recorded in name=* tag are one*s* that are locally used,
especially one*s* typically signposted.[1]»


>
> No plural is used, and for a point in the middle of the sea, one may have
> a hard time to find locals.
>

An ocean, or a sea, or a bay is not only a point, it is a surface bordering
land where people live and talk about there ocean/sea/bay in there
languages.


> I'd say that puri-lingual name(s) with a separator makes sense, but in
> another tag. That way, people using the data hoping that the name tag
> follows the definition won't be misleaded.
> In the absence of the tag name, they can use whatever fallback they choose
> to. Be it name:xx or this new tag for several bordering languages.
> And yes, the complete absence of the name tag does not bother me at all.
> Yves
> ___
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>


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Jo]

'-' might be used in the name itself, ' - ' never will be. I think
readability is better with ' - ' than with ' / ', but I guess it's a matter
of taste.

Jo

On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 1:46 PM Yves  wrote:

> The wiki description is clear enough:
> name: in general, the most prominent signposted name or the most common
> name in the local language(s)
>
> No plural is used, and for a point in the middle of the sea, one may have
> a hard time to find locals.
> I'd say that puri-lingual name(s) with a separator makes sense, but in
> another tag. That way, people using the data hoping that the name tag
> follows the definition won't be misleaded.
> In the absence of the tag name, they can use whatever fallback they choose
> to. Be it name:xx or this new tag for several bordering languages.
> And yes, the complete absence of the name tag does not bother me at all.
> Yves
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Yves]

The wiki description is clear enough:
name: in general, the most prominent signposted name or the most common name in 
the local language(s)

No plural is used, and for a point in the middle of the sea, one may have a 
hard time to find locals.
I'd say that puri-lingual name(s) with a separator makes sense, but in another 
tag. That way, people using the data hoping that the name tag follows the 
definition won't be misleaded.
In the absence of the tag name, they can use whatever fallback they choose to. 
Be it name:xx or this new tag for several bordering languages.
And yes, the complete absence of the name tag does not bother me at all. 
Yves 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] How to map an OpenStreetMap map?

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

29 Feb 2020, 11:58 by r...@technomancy.org:

>  Do yous think `map_source=openstreetmap` is a good tag?
>
Yes, though I think that posting
the same thread to tagging and talk ml
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Florimond Berthoux]

Le mer. 26 févr. 2020 à 13:16, Maarten Deen  a écrit :

> On 2020-02-26 12:34, Florimond Berthoux wrote:
> > The problem is not the OSM "default" (there is no default) map.
> > OSM is *not* a map !
> >
> > The problem is the data put in name tag of some objects, which are not
> > respectful with the international idea of the project.
>
> I find it a stretch to say that someone mapping someting and putting in
> the english name is not respectful to the idea of the project. No one
> else but him was bothered enough to put anything in. He mapped it and
> that is more than enough to respect also the international idea of the
> project (i.c. someone not from or near country X did some mapping in or
> near country X).
>

I'm not judging people, just thinking that these data is against the idea
of the project.


>
> The problem with the local names is what has already been said a few
> times: which name do you put in? If the object borders 2 countries, will
> it be two names with a / between them? If the objects borders 10
> countries, will it be 10 names with a / between them? If the object is
> the atlantic ocean, what then?
> Will it be nothing in the name tag and are we then going to complain
> that the opencarto style falls back to name:en?
>
> I just hope it will not turn into an edit war if there is no answer to
> that.
>

Well, there's probably no perfect answer, but still better than just one
language for no reason.
If there is not much language used locally to name the object, well yes
just put those languages in the name tag.
It already the case for many examples: in Morocco every thing has three
names, for the Channel, for Golfe de Gascogne between France and Spain...
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=6/39.529/-2.362
In Morocco they don't use a token to separate languages, but the alphabets
used are different making it easier to read.
When only latin alphabet languages are used, it seems that '/' is used most
of the time, tough '-' is also used around the Baltic Sea area
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=7/61.562/23.582
May be '-' is not the best token to used, since it might be used inside a
name.

For international object with many 'local' languages next to it, like
Atlantic Ocean. We have two choices : everything or none.
Everything option can be long, and may not fit into the 255 characters
limitation, but why not as long we have every languages ?
None is fine for me too.

Regards,


> Regards,
> Maarten
>
> >
> > Le mar. 25 févr. 2020 à 22:57, Mario Frasca  a
> > écrit :
> >
> >> I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all
> >> reached.
> >>
> >> we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss
> >> in English".
> >>
> >> as for the values of the `name` tag:
> >>
> >> I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.
> >>
> >> I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".
> >>
> >> I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of
> >> Trieste" for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area
> >> where Friuls is a recognized language), and Slovenia.
> >>
> >> and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a
> >> language identifier to the tile request.
> >>
> >> I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.
> >>
> >> MF
> >> On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:
> >>
> >> W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
> >>
> >> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except
> >> Tomek) that "this is a settled matter."
> >> SteveA
> >>
> >> Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik
> >> “name” z
> >> obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
> >> graniczących z państwami.
> >> Dziękuję za dyskusję
> >>
> >> La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj
> >> la
> >> etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte
> >> de maroj
> >> apudaj al landoj.
> >> Dankon por diskuto
> >>
> >> The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the
> >> tag
> >> “name” from international objects will be deleted, except of
> >> seas
> >> adjacent to the countries.
> >> Thank you for discussion
> >>
> >> ___
> >> talk mailing list
> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >  ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> > --
> > Florimond Berthoux
> > ___
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> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Yves]

I think that getting rid of the name tag in those cases is the best way to 
avoid breaking things on the data consumers side, as clever consumers already 
using name:xx would not be affected, and those relying on a name tag to display 
local language wouldn't be mistaken.
Yves 

Le 26 février 2020 13:23:31 GMT+01:00, Frederik Ramm  a 
écrit :
>Hi,
>
>On 26.02.20 13:13, Maarten Deen wrote:
>> Will it be nothing in the name tag and are we then going to complain
>> that the opencarto style falls back to name:en?
>
>Increasingly, I think the absence of a name tag wouldn't even be
>noticed. JOSM already shows the name tags in the editing user's
>language; other editors might do that too. If a fallback to name:en
>were
>added to OSM Carto (or more precisely, a fallback to a configurable
>language which would be configured to be English on openstreetmap.org)
>then you could probably remove the name tag from oceans with hardly
>anyone noticing a change.
>
>Bye
>Frederik
>
>-- 
>Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
>E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Clarification:

The Openstreetmap Carto style (which is used on the "Standard" map
layer of openstreetmap.org) does not render place=ocean or place=sea
or place=continent.

The only features discussed which are currently getting rendered are
natural=strait and natural=bay*.

Currently Openstreetmap Carto and the other 3 map styles on
openstreetmap.org are raster maps, with pre-rendered tiles stored on
the servers, so it will take a fair amount of work to make the
technical changes to render server-side vector tiles and show
different languages to different users by rendering different raster
tiles when requested.

If you want to see this happen, we could use more volunteers with the
time and ability to work out the issues.

See: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/3201

- Joseph Eisenberg

*  (I personally tried to stop rendering bays and straits at low zoom
levels, since I think it is a mistake to render these without
place=sea, and to encourage mappers to create huge multipolygons to
get the rendering)

On 2/26/20, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 26.02.20 13:13, Maarten Deen wrote:
>> Will it be nothing in the name tag and are we then going to complain
>> that the opencarto style falls back to name:en?
>
> Increasingly, I think the absence of a name tag wouldn't even be
> noticed. JOSM already shows the name tags in the editing user's
> language; other editors might do that too. If a fallback to name:en were
> added to OSM Carto (or more precisely, a fallback to a configurable
> language which would be configured to be English on openstreetmap.org)
> then you could probably remove the name tag from oceans with hardly
> anyone noticing a change.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 26.02.20 13:13, Maarten Deen wrote:
> Will it be nothing in the name tag and are we then going to complain
> that the opencarto style falls back to name:en?

Increasingly, I think the absence of a name tag wouldn't even be
noticed. JOSM already shows the name tags in the editing user's
language; other editors might do that too. If a fallback to name:en were
added to OSM Carto (or more precisely, a fallback to a configurable
language which would be configured to be English on openstreetmap.org)
then you could probably remove the name tag from oceans with hardly
anyone noticing a change.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-02-26 12:34, Florimond Berthoux wrote:

The problem is not the OSM "default" (there is no default) map.
OSM is *not* a map !

The problem is the data put in name tag of some objects, which are not
respectful with the international idea of the project.


I find it a stretch to say that someone mapping someting and putting in 
the english name is not respectful to the idea of the project. No one 
else but him was bothered enough to put anything in. He mapped it and 
that is more than enough to respect also the international idea of the 
project (i.c. someone not from or near country X did some mapping in or 
near country X).


The problem with the local names is what has already been said a few 
times: which name do you put in? If the object borders 2 countries, will 
it be two names with a / between them? If the objects borders 10 
countries, will it be 10 names with a / between them? If the object is 
the atlantic ocean, what then?
Will it be nothing in the name tag and are we then going to complain 
that the opencarto style falls back to name:en?


I just hope it will not turn into an edit war if there is no answer to 
that.


Regards,
Maarten



Le mar. 25 févr. 2020 à 22:57, Mario Frasca  a
écrit :


I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all
reached.

we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss
in English".

as for the values of the `name` tag:

I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.

I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".

I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of
Trieste" for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area
where Friuls is a recognized language), and Slovenia.

and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a
language identifier to the tile request.

I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.

MF
On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:

I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except
Tomek) that "this is a settled matter."
SteveA

Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik
“name” z
obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
graniczących z państwami.
Dziękuję za dyskusję

La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj
la
etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte
de maroj
apudaj al landoj.
Dankon por diskuto

The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the
tag
“name” from international objects will be deleted, except of
seas
adjacent to the countries.
Thank you for discussion

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Yves]

Florimond is right, putting anything in the name tag that is not in the local 
language is wrong and one should not expect data consumers to detect it.
Name:xx is the only way to go for international places.
Yves 

Le 26 février 2020 12:34:04 GMT+01:00, Florimond Berthoux 
 a écrit :
> The problem is not the OSM "default" (there is no default) map.
>OSM is *not* a map !
>The problem is the data put in name tag of some objects, which are not
>respectful with the international idea of the project.
>
>Le mar. 25 févr. 2020 à 22:57, Mario Frasca  a écrit :
>
>> I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all
>reached.
>>
>> we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in
>> English".
>>
>> as for the values of the `name` tag:
>>
>> I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.
>>
>> I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".
>>
>> I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of
>Trieste"
>> for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where Friuls
>is a
>> recognized language), and Slovenia.
>>
>> and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a
>> language identifier to the tile request.
>>
>> I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.
>>
>> MF
>> On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:
>>
>> W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
>>
>> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except
>Tomek) that "this is a settled matter."
>> SteveA
>>
>>
>> Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name”
>z
>> obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
>> graniczących z państwami.
>> Dziękuję za dyskusję
>>
>> La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
>> etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de
>maroj
>> apudaj al landoj.
>> Dankon por diskuto
>>
>> The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the
>tag
>> “name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
>> adjacent to the countries.
>> Thank you for discussion
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing
>listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
>-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Florimond Berthoux]

 The problem is not the OSM "default" (there is no default) map.
OSM is *not* a map !
The problem is the data put in name tag of some objects, which are not
respectful with the international idea of the project.

Le mar. 25 févr. 2020 à 22:57, Mario Frasca  a écrit :

> I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all reached.
>
> we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in
> English".
>
> as for the values of the `name` tag:
>
> I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.
>
> I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".
>
> I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of Trieste"
> for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where Friuls is a
> recognized language), and Slovenia.
>
> and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a
> language identifier to the tile request.
>
> I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.
>
> MF
> On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
>
> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
> "this is a settled matter."
> SteveA
>
>
> Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
> obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
> graniczących z państwami.
> Dziękuję za dyskusję
>
> La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
> etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
> apudaj al landoj.
> Dankon por diskuto
>
> The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
> “name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
> adjacent to the countries.
> Thank you for discussion
>
>
> ___
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> listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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>


-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Florimond Berthoux]

Sorry I missed to send this message to the list :

Hi,

As a cartographer I tag the reality of the world, I’m not here to push one
culture, one language, one nation, one ideology over others.

As a OSM data consumer I'd like to have good data quality.
To have good data quality,  tags and values wiki definitions should be
respected.
As a OSM data consumer I don’t want others to decide which fall back data I
should use.

So, if there are too many "local" names to feat into the name tag, well it
should not be filled.
There is no obligation to fill the name tag, name:xx is there for that.

Le mar. 25 févr. 2020 à 21:54, stevea  a écrit :

> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek)
> that "this is a settled matter."
> SteveA
>
> > On Feb 25, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> >
> > W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
> >> You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn
> Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than Esperanto.
> Then what is the more logical choice?
> > Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco
> kaj simpleco.
> > Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco
> kaj simpleco.
> >
> > W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
> >> If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting every
> mail into a translator, than why not do that?
> >> Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't
> force other people to use a translator just because you choose not to write
> in English.
> > Tiu ĉi rilato estu simetria: mi ne devigos al aliaj uzi Esperanton aŭ la
> polan, aliaj ne devigos al mi uzi la anglan.
> > This relationship should be symmetrical: I will not force others to use
> Esperanto or Polish, others will not force me to use English.
> >
> > W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Yves pisze:
> >> This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
> >> The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo of
> using an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words spent
> off of this matter, this status quo is slowly reaching consensus, keep on!
> > Mi akordas kun vi, ke la diskuto iĝas en malĝusta direkto, anstataŭ pri
> nomoj de internaciaj objektoj, ni diskutas pri lingvo de la diskuto.
> Pardonu, kial nomoj de oceanoj estu en la angla, sed ne en la pola?
> > I agree with you that the discussion is going in the wrong direction,
> instead of the names of international objects, we are discussing the
> language of the discussion. Sorry, why should ocean names be in English but
> not in Polish?
> >
> > W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Mario Frasca pisze:
> >> automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they fail
> terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond the reach
> of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.
> > Mi eblas komunikadi kun vi uzante tradukilojn Google kaj Yandex.
> > I can communicate with you using Google and Yandex translators.
> >
> > W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> >> Are you serious?
> >>
> >> "almost no one" is a weird claim,
> >> given that over 2 000 000 000 people
> >> managed.
> >>
> >> Over 600 000 000 did this as a
> >> foreign language.
> >>
> >> (And it is not like pronunciation is
> >> used on text-only mailing list!)
> > Infanoj pasigas kelkajn jarojn por lerni (kun mizera sukceso) la anglan,
> tiun tempon ili povus pasigi por lerni Esperanton kaj aliajn profitdonajn
> povsciadojn. Mi lernis ĝin por naŭ jaroj, povas lerni anglan Vikipedion,
> teĥnikajn artikolojn, sed ne povas paroli kaj aŭskulti filmojn en ĝi. Post
> lerni Esperanton en unu jaro mi sentas min pli lerta en ĝi ol en la angla.
> > Children spend a few years learning English (with disastrous success),
> this time they could spend learning Esperanto and other profitable
> knowledge. I have been learning it for nine years, can learn English
> Wikipedia, technical articles, but cannot speak and listen to movies in it.
> After learning Esperanto in one year, I feel more fluent in it than in
> English.
> >
> > W dniu 20-02-25 o 20:22, stevea pisze:
> >> I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being
> hijacked by Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable
> disagreements), as we have repeated our points so many times that seems to
> be the only thing left for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek
> persists:  simply to argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the
> room, the flame can no longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase
> like "it's a settled matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns
> here.
> > MI NE VOLAS KVERELI, mi nur volas interkonseton! Mi volas montri al vi
> ke angla ne estas la plej bona lingvo por komunikado, estas maljusta.
> > I DON'T WANT TO COME, I just want a deal! I want to show you that
> English is not the best language for communication, it is unfair.
> > __

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Lester Caine]

On 25/02/2020 23:39, Alan Mackie wrote:
Vector tiles that prefer either the browser's requested languages or 
something selectable would be ideal, but we aren't there yet technically 
for the main 'editors map'. When we are it might be worthwhile 
revisiting this discussion.


There are complaints about what language to use everywhere. Even such a 
fundamental part of the infrastructure as 'timezones' has an ongoing 
debate about just how to spell the ENGLISH name of some identifiers and 
there has been a growing push to simply drop the 'names' and use 
abstract references so close the discussion once and for all. The 
argument here HAS been a problem since day one, and I remember 
discussions on converting tagging to use ID numbers rather than names 
... what ever language they are written in. Just as with timezone 
identifiers, many of the text strings used can be 'translated' into any 
language one likes to DISPLAY them, and what has always been missing is 
a part of the API that simply allows one to select the language one 
would like to see ... and something which vector tiles could easily 
support ... but just as browsers still have problems with the simple 
stuff like returning a clients ACTUAL timezone (time offset as ALWAYS 
been the wrong information), the basic simple steps have never been 
defined in any standard?


That the current 'map' is missing names for many graphic objects is just 
a matter of who controls the style sheets. Personally I prefer the 
French tile sets over the main version and have to accept that road 
colours are wrong. None of that affects the flexibility that the raw 
data provides, although a nice 'United Kingdom' colour set on OSMAND is 
still on my own todo list, and the vector maps THAT produces have 
potential to solve many of the 'complaints' ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/81476133

On 25/02/2020 19:22, Alan Mackie wrote:
The labels would probably need to be tied together into a relation to 
avoid this


sorry, I considered as if this was always already the case.

Gulf of Venice and Gulf of Trieste are both already relations.

I assumed this would be the case elsewhere too. it was my understanding 
that my suggestion would use the already present complexity, not add to 
it.  please prove me wrong in a couple of relevant cases.  then we can 
look at them.



On 25/02/2020 19:22, Alan Mackie wrote:
You also don't know if you're looking at multiple separately named 
regions or one large feature with multiple translations.


not sure I understand this one.  can you exemplify?

ah, you mean, I would see a label in a language I can't read, and I 
might not even recognize it as belonging to the same feature. but, I 
mean, we're speaking of the showcase, not of a properly localized map, 
so who cares?


on the other hand, designing and programming such a complication just 
for a showcase isn't maybe worth the effort.  so: I don't know.


MF



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Alan Mackie]

>
> placing a localized version of the name tag in front of the
>
corresponding language area is still an option I support.  Red Sea would
> be a nice test-bed, just like the Ostsee.
>

The problem I see with this is that it violates the 'one feature one
element' principle. The labels would probably need to be tied together into
a relation to avoid this and that then starts to get very complicated very
quickly. You also don't know if you're looking at multiple separately named
regions or one large feature with multiple translations.

Adding a language name to the URL schema does not look so difficult to
> me, what's going to be difficult is paying the money needed to hold the
> data.
>

I think the cost implications mostly go away with vector tiles as you are
essentially "rendering" client side and the additional server side load is
(allegedly) minimal. Browser support and processing power on the consumer
side can then start to be an issue as it's not as trivial to display as a
simple image. From my limited viewpoint the greatest risk I see from vector
tiles is that the capacity for abuse skyrockets as the client side
customisability might lead some to think "this is like Mapbox but free" and
just pull from openstreetmap.org instead of using a proper service.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 25/02/2020 18:39, Alan Mackie wrote:
so long as there won't be an edit war over precedence. Languages 
separated by "/" or similar.


OSM in Morocco uses the `-` (dash) as separator.  (they have two and 
locally three national languages)


I'll try this for the Gulf of Venice and Trieste, and see where we 
land.  I will not re-edit if someone changes order nor removes content, 
but I might choose to comment on any subsequent changeset, possibly also 
alert the DWG.


regarding the seas where the `name` has disappeared altogether, I will 
not put English back: I will choose a couple of languages, and invite 
other native speakers of bordering countries to add their own, and to 
see for themselves if the name is becoming too space demanding in the 
rendering.


I will do nothing for areas where they speak a language I can't even 
read (East Asia).


---

placing a localized version of the name tag in front of the 
corresponding language area is still an option I support.  Red Sea would 
be a nice test-bed, just like the Ostsee.


Adding a language name to the URL schema does not look so difficult to 
me, what's going to be difficult is paying the money needed to hold the 
data.


anyhow, stop me if you think this plan is nonsensical.

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Alan Mackie]

Names with one, two or three languages where there are a limited number of
neighbours/occupants seems logical so long as there won't be an edit war
over precedence. Languages separated by "/" or similar. More languages than
that seems too unwieldy which rules out its use even for some 'relatively
small' features.

At this stage deleting the 'plain' name tags from highly
international object is pure vandalism in my opinion. It will continue to
be vandalism at least as long as the 'default render' relies on having a
name=*. It is too much of a barrier to entry to rely on users having the
necessary query skills to surface invisible features, and there would be
duplicates as a result of it.

I see no benefit to changing the 'fallback language' to something else at
this stage, especially to a little used construct. Saying "*if* we all
taught 'X' language to kids; it would be a universal language" could be
said about literally any language whether you are promoting English,
Spanish, Lojban or Quenya. How hard these languages are to learn is highly
dependant on what languages you have already learned, but this is largely a
distraction. People inevitably choose to teach languages with a sizeable
history to them first, novel inventions second (or more likely fourth), if
at all.

Vector tiles that prefer either the browser's requested languages or
something selectable would be ideal, but we aren't there yet technically
for the main 'editors map'. When we are it might be worthwhile revisiting
this discussion.

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 21:57, Mario Frasca  wrote:

> I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all reached.
>
> we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in
> English".
>
> as for the values of the `name` tag:
>
> I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.
>
> I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".
>
> I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of Trieste"
> for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where Friuls is a
> recognized language), and Slovenia.
>
> and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a
> language identifier to the tile request.
>
> I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.
>
> MF
> On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
>
> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
> "this is a settled matter."
> SteveA
>
>
> Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
> obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
> graniczących z państwami.
> Dziękuję za dyskusję
>
> La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
> etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
> apudaj al landoj.
> Dankon por diskuto
>
> The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
> “name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
> adjacent to the countries.
> Thank you for discussion
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing 
> listtalk@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

I'm afraid that the conclusion you summarize here is not at all reached.

we have reached the conclusion on the pointless point: "we discuss in 
English".


as for the values of the `name` tag:

I prefer to see "Adriatic Sea" rather than nothing.

I prefer "Mare Adriatico" to "Adriatic Sea".

I definitely question the choice of the editor who wrote "Gulf of 
Trieste" for a piece of sea that borders with Italy (in an area where 
Friuls is a recognized language), and Slovenia.


and I have suggested that the problem would vaporize if we added a 
language identifier to the tile request.


I'm very much interested in reading reactions to this.

MF

On 25/02/2020 16:10, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:

I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that "this 
is a settled matter."
SteveA


Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
graniczących z państwami.
Dziękuję za dyskusję

La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
apudaj al landoj.
Dankon por diskuto

The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
“name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
adjacent to the countries.
Thank you for discussion

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Jo]

On Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 4:33 PM Hartmut Holzgraefe  wrote:

> On 25.02.20 15:36, Tomek wrote:
>  > Everyone uses the same learning
>  > costs when using Esperanto, they do not have the privileged ones.
>
> I'd assume that the cost argument doesn't hold, it's going to be more
> easy for Europeans than for e.g. Chinese or Japanese. It starts with
> the letters used, which give people that have grown up with a a
> Latinbased language a first head start, and it continues with the
> vocabulary
> that is also favoring (west) European learners. (Can't say anything
> about the grammer, I'm not that deep into it, but I assume the same
> is true for that, too)
>

I actually learned Esperanto and am a great fan.
Learning English properly is notoriously hard for most of the world's
population. Native speakers always are at an advantage.
Europeans coming from Germanic and Scandinavian languages have a bigger
advantage for learning English.
All Europeans have an advantage if they wanted to learn Esperanto.

Esperanto is written like it is spoken and vice versa. Completely phonetic
by design.

The grammar has 20 rules and not a single exception. The grammar is
extremely easy, even when it takes some getting used to at first. But that
can be said about all languages.

Most people can learn the basics in a crash course of 24 hours. Fluency can
be achieved by people used to the Latin script in 3 months, for people
using other scripts this becomes 6 months and then their level would be
better than if they had learned English for 6+ years.

It would be nice if the whole world's population would decide to teach
Esperanto to their children as a second language. 20 years later everyone
would be able to communicate with anyone else, at the same level.

I also realise this is not going to happen anytime soon. The world is more
likely to switch to Chinese instead, than to do something that would make a
lot of sense.

Anyway, the reason I wanted to learn Esperanto is because I wanted to
figure out whether it's possible to express oneself in an 'artificially'
created language; and yes, it's possible. Sometimes with even more nuance
than in other languages.

Anyway, just my €0.2 After having learned Esperanto I have continued to
learn other languages. I wouldn't say it has failed. It's still present
after more than a hundred years. Let's hope the world population comes to
its senses, but I'm not holding my breath.

Having said all that, I don't think it would make sense to put Esperanto in
our name object for international features. Not before 30% of the world's
population decided to learn it first, anyway.

Polyglot
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-25 o 21:52, stevea pisze:
> I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
> "this is a settled matter."
> SteveA
>
Sprawa rozwiązana, każdy mówi w jakim języku chce, a znacznik “name” z
obiektów międzynarodowych zostanie usunięty, z wyjątkiem mórz
graniczących z państwami.
Dziękuję za dyskusję

La problemo estas solvita, ĉiu povas paroli en iu ajn lingvo; kaj la
etikedo “name” el internaciaj objektoj estos forigita, escepte de maroj
apudaj al landoj.
Dankon por diskuto

The problem is solved, everyone can speak in any language; and the tag
“name” from international objects will be deleted, except of seas
adjacent to the countries.
Thank you for discussion
<>

signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

I believe I speak for many, most, or even all of us here (except Tomek) that 
"this is a settled matter."
SteveA

> On Feb 25, 2020, at 12:44 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
>> You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn 
>> Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than Esperanto. 
>> Then what is the more logical choice? 
> Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco kaj 
> simpleco.
> Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco kaj 
> simpleco.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
>> If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting every mail 
>> into a translator, than why not do that? 
>> Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't force 
>> other people to use a translator just because you choose not to write in 
>> English.
> Tiu ĉi rilato estu simetria: mi ne devigos al aliaj uzi Esperanton aŭ la 
> polan, aliaj ne devigos al mi uzi la anglan.
> This relationship should be symmetrical: I will not force others to use 
> Esperanto or Polish, others will not force me to use English.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Yves pisze:
>> This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
>> The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo of 
>> using an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words spent 
>> off of this matter, this status quo is slowly reaching consensus, keep on!
> Mi akordas kun vi, ke la diskuto iĝas en malĝusta direkto, anstataŭ pri nomoj 
> de internaciaj objektoj, ni diskutas pri lingvo de la diskuto. Pardonu, kial 
> nomoj de oceanoj estu en la angla, sed ne en la pola?
> I agree with you that the discussion is going in the wrong direction, instead 
> of the names of international objects, we are discussing the language of the 
> discussion. Sorry, why should ocean names be in English but not in Polish?
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Mario Frasca pisze:
>> automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they fail 
>> terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond the reach 
>> of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.
> Mi eblas komunikadi kun vi uzante tradukilojn Google kaj Yandex.
> I can communicate with you using Google and Yandex translators.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
>> Are you serious?
>> 
>> "almost no one" is a weird claim,
>> given that over 2 000 000 000 people
>> managed.
>> 
>> Over 600 000 000 did this as a
>> foreign language.
>> 
>> (And it is not like pronunciation is
>> used on text-only mailing list!)
> Infanoj pasigas kelkajn jarojn por lerni (kun mizera sukceso) la anglan, tiun 
> tempon ili povus pasigi por lerni Esperanton kaj aliajn profitdonajn 
> povsciadojn. Mi lernis ĝin por naŭ jaroj, povas lerni anglan Vikipedion, 
> teĥnikajn artikolojn, sed ne povas paroli kaj aŭskulti filmojn en ĝi. Post 
> lerni Esperanton en unu jaro mi sentas min pli lerta en ĝi ol en la angla.
> Children spend a few years learning English (with disastrous success), this 
> time they could spend learning Esperanto and other profitable knowledge. I 
> have been learning it for nine years, can learn English Wikipedia, technical 
> articles, but cannot speak and listen to movies in it. After learning 
> Esperanto in one year, I feel more fluent in it than in English.
> 
> W dniu 20-02-25 o 20:22, stevea pisze:
>> I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being hijacked 
>> by Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable 
>> disagreements), as we have repeated our points so many times that seems to 
>> be the only thing left for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek 
>> persists:  simply to argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the 
>> room, the flame can no longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase 
>> like "it's a settled matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns 
>> here.
> MI NE VOLAS KVERELI, mi nur volas interkonseton! Mi volas montri al vi ke 
> angla ne estas la plej bona lingvo por komunikado, estas maljusta.
> I DON'T WANT TO COME, I just want a deal! I want to show you that English is 
> not the best language for communication, it is unfair.
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
> You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn
> Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than
> Esperanto. Then what is the more logical choice?
Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco
kaj simpleco.
Esperanto estas pli logika por internacia komunikado pro ĝia neŭtreco
kaj simpleco.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:57, Maarten Deen pisze:
> If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting
> every mail into a translator, than why not do that?
> Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't
> force other people to use a translator just because you choose not to
> write in English. 
Tiu ĉi rilato estu simetria: mi ne devigos al aliaj uzi Esperanton aŭ la
polan, aliaj ne devigos al mi uzi la anglan.
This relationship should be symmetrical: I will not force others to use
Esperanto or Polish, others will not force me to use English.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Yves pisze:
> This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
> The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo
> of using an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words
> spent off of this matter, this status quo is slowly reaching
> consensus, keep on!
Mi akordas kun vi, ke la diskuto iĝas en malĝusta direkto, anstataŭ pri
nomoj de internaciaj objektoj, ni diskutas pri lingvo de la diskuto.
Pardonu, kial nomoj de oceanoj estu en la angla, sed ne en la pola?
I agree with you that the discussion is going in the wrong direction,
instead of the names of international objects, we are discussing the
language of the discussion. Sorry, why should ocean names be in English
but not in Polish?

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:46, Mario Frasca pisze:
> automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they
> fail terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond
> the reach of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.
Mi eblas komunikadi kun vi uzante tradukilojn Google kaj Yandex.
I can communicate with you using Google and Yandex translators.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 19:59, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> Are you serious?
>
> "almost no one" is a weird claim,
> given that over 2 000 000 000 people
> managed.
>
> Over 600 000 000 did this as a
> foreign language.
>
> (And it is not like pronunciation is
> used on text-only mailing list!)
Infanoj pasigas kelkajn jarojn por lerni (kun mizera sukceso) la anglan,
tiun tempon ili povus pasigi por lerni Esperanton kaj aliajn
profitdonajn povsciadojn. Mi lernis ĝin por naŭ jaroj, povas lerni
anglan Vikipedion, teĥnikajn artikolojn, sed ne povas paroli kaj
aŭskulti filmojn en ĝi. Post lerni Esperanton en unu jaro mi sentas min
pli lerta en ĝi ol en la angla.
Children spend a few years learning English (with disastrous success),
this time they could spend learning Esperanto and other profitable
knowledge. I have been learning it for nine years, can learn English
Wikipedia, technical articles, but cannot speak and listen to movies in
it. After learning Esperanto in one year, I feel more fluent in it than
in English.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 20:22, stevea pisze:
> I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being hijacked 
> by Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable 
> disagreements), as we have repeated our points so many times that seems to be 
> the only thing left for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek 
> persists:  simply to argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the room, 
> the flame can no longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase like 
> "it's a settled matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns here.
MI NE VOLAS KVERELI, mi nur volas interkonseton! Mi volas montri al vi
ke angla ne estas la plej bona lingvo por komunikado, estas maljusta.
I DON'T WANT TO COME, I just want a deal! I want to show you that
English is not the best language for communication, it is unfair.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 25/02/2020 14:46, stevea wrote:

Evidently there is more to say about this


my impression at the moment is that we have different expectations from 
"the" map, that's the tiles at 
https://c.tile.openstreetmap.org/11/1100/731.png and similar URLs.


is their purpose "showcasing the OSM database" ?

or is it "offering a one-fits-all" solution to having some minimal base 
for stuff like umap, or any site we develop, using leaflet for example.


if it's just showcasing, it's working fine.

but since it's being used, just to give an example, at 
umap.openstreetmap.co, then no, it does not fit.


if OSM was receiving as much money as those billionaires running for the 
presidency of the USA, I would dare ask:


keep the current site displaying whatever value is stored in `name`, 
then add a URL schema to let the client request a specific language.  if 
objects have English in their `name`, who would care less, if we could 
request the tiles in the language we prefer? start with a couple of 
languages, like Spanish, French, and I do not dare to continue this 
imperialistic list.


would this be beyond reach for the Foundation?

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

On Feb 25, 2020, at 11:43 AM, Mario Frasca  wrote:
> 
> On 25/02/2020 14:22, stevea wrote:
>> as an emerging (emerged?) consensus we seem to be leaving the names of 
>> international objects in English
> 
> I wish to express my disagreement.
> 
> and I will give more examples, from openstreetmap.org, "the" map.
> 
> Gulf of Venice; Gulf of Trieste; unlabelled Mare Adriatico; North Sea; 
> unlabelled Ostsee; unlabelled Canale di Otranto; Balearic Sea (you're kidding 
> me!); unlabelled Mediterranean; unlabelled Red Sea; unlabelled seas and 
> straits West of Japan; unlabelled Bering Strait;
> 
> so while I do feel uncomfortable seeing English labels between Venezia, 
> Trst/Trieste and Istria, I am even more uncomfortable with the absence of 
> labels elsewhere.

OK, Mario.  Evidently there is more to say about this.  Let us continue.
SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 25/02/2020 14:22, stevea wrote:

as an emerging (emerged?) consensus we seem to be leaving the names of 
international objects in English


I wish to express my disagreement.

and I will give more examples, from openstreetmap.org, "the" map.

Gulf of Venice; Gulf of Trieste; unlabelled Mare Adriatico; North Sea; 
unlabelled Ostsee; unlabelled Canale di Otranto; Balearic Sea (you're 
kidding me!); unlabelled Mediterranean; unlabelled Red Sea; unlabelled 
seas and straits West of Japan; unlabelled Bering Strait;


so while I do feel uncomfortable seeing English labels between Venezia, 
Trst/Trieste and Istria, I am even more uncomfortable with the absence 
of labels elsewhere.




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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

This discussion is tedious and exhausting.  We've paid out miles and miles of 
patient listening to Tomek's points, politely (and unanimously) disagreed with 
him, yet still, he persists in thrusting his polemic upon a communication 
channel intended to discuss open source mapping of a particular linguistic 
register (the OSM talk page, where "which language should / do we use?" is a 
completely settled question, not an open one).  I believe I speak for many of 
us when I say I no longer wish to entertain "linguistic imperialism" 
discussions.

I suggest we begin to diminish the importance of this thread being hijacked by 
Tomek's topic by not responding to him (with our reasonable disagreements), as 
we have repeated our points so many times that seems to be the only thing left 
for us to do.  Perhaps that is the only reason Tomek persists:  simply to 
argue.  Enough already.  Without any oxygen in the room, the flame can no 
longer burn.  Perhaps we simply utter a brief phrase like "it's a settled 
matter" if the topic of Esperanto vs. English returns here.

Let's return to discussing mapping.  I agree:  as an emerging (emerged?) 
consensus we seem to be leaving the names of international objects in English, 
with any additional language welcome to be added as a name:xyz (language 
suffix) tag.  We can also use the int_name tag, which our wiki has documented 
for quite some time as "International does not (necessarily) mean English."  I 
remain (barely) in a listening mode to other suggestions, but they are 
disappearing from this conversation like the light in the sky after sunset.

"It is what it is."  (It's a settled matter).

SteveA
California

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

25 Feb 2020, 19:15 by to...@disroot.org:

> W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:43, Mateusz Konieczny via talk pisze:
>  
>
>> Yes, and for pragmatic reasons we use English.
>>
>> We are not using Esperanto, because unlike
>> English nearly noone is capable of communicating in it.
>
> Almost no one can learn English as opposedto Esperanto, almost no one 
> can understand its illogicalpronunciation, multi-part verbs, its 
> vagueness.
>
Are you serious?

"almost no one" is a weird claim,
given that over 2 000 000 000 people
managed.

Over 600 000 000 did this as a
foreign language.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-02-25 19:15, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:43, Mateusz Konieczny via talk pisze:



PS: given the choice, I'd probably rather learn Klingon than
Esperanto,
that might give me better chances to find someone I could talk to in

that language after all I assume, esp. in the tech/geek sector ...

 Viaj personaj elektoj ne interesiĝas min. Ĉu mi altrudas al aliaj
homoj lerni la polan? Ĉesu altrudi al mi lerni la anglan.
I'm not interested in your personal choices. Do I force other people
to learn Polish? Stop making me learn English.


You are forcing (or are trying to) me and a lot of others to learn 
Esperanto. That's just the same. More people speak English than 
Esperanto. Then what is the more logical choice?
If you don't want to read english and you have no problem putting every 
mail into a translator, than why not do that?
Just don't get mad if other people do not want to do that. You can't 
force other people to use a translator just because you choose not to 
write in English.


Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Yves]

This discussion is hopeless, and 90% off topic.
The only outcome of discussing languages here is that the status quo of using 
an English name for oceans remains. Given the amount of words spent off of this 
matter, this status quo is slowly reaching consensus, keep on!
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

right, looks like we keep focusing on the pointless point.

On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:
Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn 
it than to learn English.


I doubt this.  you don't need Shakespeare or Chaucer for technical 
English communication.  just use a pidgin, easy enough. hardly any 
grammar.  you can even forget about articles.  poor native speakers, who 
have to cope with us!


On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:
I just want everyone on the international list to use a comfortable 
language


I *am* comfortable with English, thank you for your consideration and 
effort.  if you want to know, I am comfortable, in decreasing order, 
with Italian, Spanish, English, Dutch, French, German and possibly 
Portuguese, (Maarten: I'm counting Dutch and German as if it was two 
languages. :-P en dat grappig taaltje van jou, is het Limburgs?  zeer 
schattig hoor!)  But Esperanto? no, I can't read it, I tend to just skip 
to the end of the text.  Polish?  I made an attempt, it's by far the 
most difficult language I have ever met.


automated translations?  they go through English, mostly, and they fail 
terribly when doing two passes.  some languages are still beyond the 
reach of most translation algorithms.  I would NOT rely on them.


so if you are concerned about comfort, you have my personal preferences.

oh, right, sorry, I'm just one, not the community.

do we want to choose a language here?  imagine we do that, and we use 
the Schutze method for it?  do you think the outcome won't be English?  
really?


On 25/02/2020 09:36, Tomek wrote:

This is the dictatorship of the majority.


call it as you prefer.  I guess this is how the democratic decision 
process works.  majority dictates.  unless you prefer oligarchies 
(minority dictates), or theocracies (priests dictate), or plutocracies 
(money dictates)…  right, you call OSM a plutocracy, since the people 
who finance it are deciding for the rest.  but, hey, they are paying, 
and we may use it gratis, and even make money with it.  I don't feel 
like complaining you know!


MF

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:43, Mateusz Konieczny via talk pisze:
> Yes, and for pragmatic reasons we use English.
>
> We are not using Esperanto, because unlike
> English nearly noone is capable of communicating in it.
>
> We are using English here primarily because
> OSM was started in England,
> and there was no good reason to change
> language of this mailing list.
OSM komenciĝis en Anglujo, sed iĝis la mapo de la tuta mondo. Preskaŭ
neniu povas finlerni la anglan lingvon kontraŭe al Esperanto, preskaŭ
neniu povas kompreni ĝian nelogikan elparolon, plurpartajn verbojn, ĝian
malprecizon.
OSM started in England, but became the map of the entire world. Almost
no one can learn English as opposed to Esperanto, almost no one can
understand its illogical pronunciation, multi-part verbs, its vagueness.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:28, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
>
> > EN Is there any major international list to discuss?
> > Why don't you go to the "Talk-GB" or "Talk-us" list to discuss in
> English?
>
> Because these are more for topics local to those countries. 
Do tiu ĉi listo ankaŭ estas loka listo por anglalingvanoj, ĉu ekzistas
internacia listo por pridiskuti OSM-rilatajn aferojn?
So this list is also a local list for English speakers, is there an
international list to discuss OSM related issues?

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:28, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
> It's just what has been proven to work "least bad". Does that give
> some an unfair advantage? For sure. But would raising the bar for
> everyone by demanding "You have to learn this language, that you
> almost for certain have not learned before, to even start to
> participate" be "less bad"? I'm far from convinced ... 
Ĝi funkcias senespere, infanoj lernas ĝin por kelkaj jaroj kaj ne povas
lerte ĝin uzi. Eblas samtempe uzi du lingvojn: primitivan anglan kaj
justan Esperanton, post kelkaj monatoj/jaroj homoj certe elektu la
Esperanton.
It works out of desperation, kids learn it for a few years and can't use
it. It is possible to use two languages at once: primitive English and
just Esperanto, after a few months / years people should definitely
choose Esperanto.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 18:28, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
> PS: given the choice, I'd probably rather learn Klingon than Esperanto,
> that might give me better chances to find someone I could talk to in
> that language after all I assume, esp. in the tech/geek sector ... 
Viaj personaj elektoj ne interesiĝas min. Ĉu mi altrudas al aliaj homoj
lerni la polan? Ĉesu altrudi al mi lerni la anglan.
I'm not interested in your personal choices. Do I force other people to
learn Polish? Stop making me learn English.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Andreas Vilén]

There’s Incubus, from the 60’s with William Shatner in the main role. According 
to myth, that is what made Gene Roddenberry decide it would be a horrible 
desicion to make Star Trek in Esperanto.

/Andreas

Skickat från min iPhone

> 25 feb. 2020 kl. 18:06 skrev Tomek :
> 

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

25 Feb 2020, 18:03 by to...@disroot.org:

> W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
>  
>
>> I don't  think so. 
>>  The common language on this list is English, as the common  language on 
>> talk-nl is Dutch and on talk-pl is Polish. Why don't I  go to talk-pl 
>> and complain I'm being oppressed because everyone is  not using a 
>> language I can understand. 
>>  It doesn't work that way. 
>>
> EO Ĉu ekzistas ia ĉefa internacia listo por diskuti? Kial vi ne irasal la 
> listo “Talk-GB” aŭ “Talk-us” por diskuti en la angla?
>  > EN Is there any major international list to discuss?
>
Yes, and for pragmatic reasons we use English.

We are not using Esperanto, because unlike
English nearly noone is capable of communicating in it.

We are using English here primarily because
OSM was started in England,
and there was no good reason to change
language of this mailing list.

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Hartmut Holzgraefe]

On 25.02.20 18:03, Tomek wrote:

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:26, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:

In a former company I worked for we had a clear "The burden shall
be on the writer, not the readers" principle. As the number of
readers is usually much larger then the number of writers (typically
one) of a message, that minimizes total effort and overhead (and
this is not limited to language choice and translations alone).
I would say this principle should apply here, to
EO Mi estas la leganto, do bonvolu skribi en mia lingvo (pola) aŭ en 
internacia lingvo, kiun mi scias (Esperanto).
EN I am the reader, so please write in my language (Polish) or in an 
international language I know (Esperanto).


you are just one reader, not the totality of readers. The "the burden
shall be on the writer, not the readers" principle does not go as far
as having to translate to all potentially preferred languages in the
audience ...

I already take the burden to write in a language that is not my native
one, but the one I can safely assume to be the one understood by most
of the audience.

> EN Is there any major international list to discuss?
> Why don't you go to the "Talk-GB" or "Talk-us" list to discuss in 
English?


Because these are more for topics local to those countries.

For international lists every open source and open data project I've
been on so far has agreed on using english whenever possible, this
is not limited to OSM. And this is the first time I've seen complaints
about this, across all these projects.

Even my current (MariaDB) and my previous (Mysql) employers use(d)
english for this, both externally and internally, even though MySQL
was a swedish company, and MariaDB is a finnish one.

It's just what has been proven to work "least bad". Does that give
some an unfair advantage? For sure. But would raising the bar for
everyone by demanding "You have to learn this language, that you
almost for certain have not learned before, to even start to
participate" be "less bad"? I'm far from convinced ...

Personally when looking at my history of learning English, beyond what I 
learned in school, this included having a British uncle, listening to

british radio, reading novels and tech magazines, and watching british
and US movies and TV shows. And then finally getting involved into
open source projects, and then jobs, where English was the language
anyone had agreed on to use for communications.

Hardly any of this is available for getting fluent in Esperanto, as
already pointed out earlier. (And the same was true for Latin when
I tried to learn it at school. In the end I just learned enough to
pass final tests and get my "Latinum", but I never even became a fluent
reader, and even less so writer or even speaker. And by now I've mostly
forgotten everything I learned back then ...)

PS: given the choice, I'd probably rather learn Klingon than Esperanto,
that might give me better chances to find someone I could talk to in
that language after all I assume, esp. in the tech/geek sector ...

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
> I don't think so.
> The common language on this list is English, as the common language on
> talk-nl is Dutch and on talk-pl is Polish. Why don't I go to talk-pl
> and complain I'm being oppressed because everyone is not using a
> language I can understand.
> It doesn't work that way.
EO Ĉu ekzistas ia ĉefa internacia listo por diskuti? Kial vi ne iras al
la listo “Talk-GB” aŭ “Talk-us” por diskuti en la angla?
EN Is there any major international list to discuss? Why don't you go to
the "Talk-GB" or "Talk-us" list to discuss in English?

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
> Can you back that statement up?
> And it does not work for me at this point. I already know English, so
> that time has been spent. I have to invest time learning Esperanto.
> And even more: Esperanto is very much an artificial language for me. I
> can watch movies in English and use that to hone my knowledge of the
> language. If there are movies in Esperanto (probably lip-synced which
> is horrible) I have to go out of my way to get them. 
EO Bedaŭrinde mankas filmoj en Esperanto, nur kursoj kaj libroj
ekzistas. Vi parolas pri homoj kiuj jam dediĉis multan tempon por ĝin
lerni aŭ pri denaskaj parolantoj, bonvolu pensi pri homoj kiuj ne scias
la anglan, por tiuj homoj EO estas la pli bona solvo.
EN Unfortunately there are no movies in Esperanto, only courses and
books exist. You talk about people who have spent a lot of time learning
it or native speakers, please think of people who do not know English,
for those people EO is the best solution.

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:29, Maarten Deen pisze:
> Good, dus ich ken in mien eige taal kalle? Versteis tich mich dan nog
> altied? En wat als het get lastigere zinne weare?
>
> I'm certain it is not benificial at all if everyone starts using their
> mother language on this list. 
EO Vi probable uzas ian slangon, do tial aŭtomataj tradukiloj ne povas
traduki ĝin ĝuste. Uzo de naciaj lingvoj estas egala, sed ne oportuna,
la plej bona solvo estu uzi internacian lingvon (Esperanton aŭ
Interlingvaon).
EN You probably use some kind of slang, so auto-translators can't
translate it correctly. The use of national languages is the same, but
not practical, the best solution is to use an international language
(Esperanto or Interlingue).

W dniu 20-02-25 o 16:26, Hartmut Holzgraefe pisze:
> In a former company I worked for we had a clear "The burden shall
> be on the writer, not the readers" principle. As the number of
> readers is usually much larger then the number of writers (typically
> one) of a message, that minimizes total effort and overhead (and
> this is not limited to language choice and translations alone).
> I would say this principle should apply here, to
EO Mi estas la leganto, do bonvolu skribi en mia lingvo (pola) aŭ en
internacia lingvo, kiun mi scias (Esperanto).
EN I am the reader, so please write in my language (Polish) or in an
international language I know (Esperanto).
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-02-25 15:36, Tomek wrote:


 Since you don't want to put in the effort of putting the text in the
translator, maybe it's best to unsubscribe from this list?


I don't think so.
The common language on this list is English, as the common language on 
talk-nl is Dutch and on talk-pl is Polish. Why don't I go to talk-pl and 
complain I'm being oppressed because everyone is not using a language I 
can understand.

It doesn't work that way.


Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn
it than to learn English.


Can you back that statement up?
And it does not work for me at this point. I already know English, so 
that time has been spent. I have to invest time learning Esperanto. And 
even more: Esperanto is very much an artificial language for me. I can 
watch movies in English and use that to hone my knowledge of the 
language. If there are movies in Esperanto (probably lip-synced which is 
horrible) I have to go out of my way to get them.



Interlingua is a better choice because it tries to be understood by
users of Romance languages.


That may well be, but the fact it never took on says something, doesn't 
it?



why do other users of this list disrespect me?


I don't disrepect you, I'm just ignoring posts in a language I can not 
understand.



People, let's try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek,
please help us here, do choose a "top 3" language in your
communications.

 This is the dictatorship of the majority.


Good, dus ich ken in mien eige taal kalle? Versteis tich mich dan nog 
altied? En wat als het get lastigere zinne weare?


I'm certain it is not benificial at all if everyone starts using their 
mother language on this list.


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Hartmut Holzgraefe]

On 25.02.20 15:36, Tomek wrote:
> Everyone uses the same learning
> costs when using Esperanto, they do not have the privileged ones.

I'd assume that the cost argument doesn't hold, it's going to be more
easy for Europeans than for e.g. Chinese or Japanese. It starts with
the letters used, which give people that have grown up with a a 
Latinbased language a first head start, and it continues with the vocabulary

that is also favoring (west) European learners. (Can't say anything
about the grammer, I'm not that deep into it, but I assume the same
is true for that, too)

> Since you don't want to put in the effort of putting the text in the
> translator, maybe it's best to unsubscribe from this list?

I'm doing customer support for a world wide customer base on a daily
basis, and while automatic translators got quite a bit better over 
time,we try to encourage our customers to write to us in English. Auto 
translated texts give you a rough idea what the text is about, but

they may fail you completely when it comes to details, or common
phrases, totally failing to transport the actual message.

We use it as a last resort when someone refuses to write to us in
English, but it is a double edged sword.

Contractually we actually enforce the use of English, even when having
someone on the team having the same native language as the customer.

Translations are used on a "best effort" basis, but without guarantees.
Also when replying to auto-translated requests, our replies will have
lots of "if I understood you corretly ..." parts.

While it would be nice to have an universal language that doesn't
favor any nationality, like Latin used to be in the middle ages in
Europe, it's just not practical. For practical purposes it's either
English, or Chinese, with Spanish probably coming up as third.

And as others have already pointed out: when you look at the combined
numbers of people speaking a specific language as either first *or*
additional language, English probably wins (especially if you count
India in as English speaking country, to which some may object), and
as far as I can tell that number is growing the fastest, too.

So while I don't mind seeing someone who indeed doesn't understand
English trying to participate here in their native language, and
relying on automatic translations in that case as its the only
alternative, I don't get the point of someone who's clearly able
to communicate in English trying to make things harder for
everybody else by insisting on using their first language.
(Or did I get fooled by rather good auto translations here?)

In a former company I worked for we had a clear "The burden shall
be on the writer, not the readers" principle. As the number of
readers is usually much larger then the number of writers (typically
one) of a message, that minimizes total effort and overhead (and
this is not limited to language choice and translations alone).
I would say this principle should apply here, too.

PS: While I like the general idea of choosing a common language
like Esperanto, I know that it will fail the same way as "we
should all use an open source word processor". People will still
send you .doc or .docx ... it is a fight you can't win ...

--
hartmut


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-24 o 02:05, Mario Frasca pisze:
> se proprio insisti a non voler scrivere in Inglese, usa il Francese o
> il Tedesco, cioè un'altra lingua internazionale riconosciuta
> dall'Unione Europea, Unione di cui fa parte anche la Polonia, o
> adattati a che ciascuno ti risponda nella lingua che preferisce,
> facendo di tutto ciò una conversazione fra sordi. 
Why am I forced to use difficult languages of other nations, why can't I
use the easy language of Esperanto? Everyone uses the same learning
costs when using Esperanto, they do not have the privileged ones.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 11:17, Maarten Deen pisze:
> I can not agree more with this message. I am not even trying to read
> the Polish and Esperanto mails. Yes, I am to lazy to put them in a
> translator because I think it is absolutely unnecessary. I am also not
> posting in Dutch because that will pose the same burden on others and
> I don't think that is the best action to do. 
Since you don't want to put in the effort of putting the text in the
translator, maybe it's best to unsubscribe from this list?

W dniu 20-02-24 o 12:21, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
> there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem 
> that English is the language which has most people able to understand it 
> (shortly before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second 
> language). From a practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall 
> back to English. This could change in the future, but it would be a long way.
> Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other 
> languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that 
> language isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the 
> neighboring countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian 
> ...) 
Using the criterion of practicality:
Esperanto is a better choice because it takes much less time to learn it
than to learn English.
Interlingua is a better choice because it tries to be understood by
users of Romance languages.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 14:37, Mario Frasca pisze:
> As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the
> use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly
> applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include
> English, or only marginally so), and one about the communication
> language in this list.  This second point has attracted most
> attention, and has made it hard to keep a constructive discussion
> about the first. 
And here lies the problem, do I force others to use Polish or Esperanto
in the discussion? NO! I just want everyone on the international list to
use a comfortable language and try to understand others through
translators. I try to be kind when writing in English, why do other
users of this list disrespect me?

W dniu 20-02-24 o 14:37, Mario Frasca pisze:
> People, let's try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek,
> please help us here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications. 
This is the dictatorship of the majority.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 12:53, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
> continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
> specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
> the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
> rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
> surrounding by a large number of language areas.
This tag has already been developed. Countries are marked as relations
with the tag "default_language", the program would then have to download
the tag "name:LANGUAGE" from the sea and display it on the coast. The
problem is that the seas are marked on the map as points.

W dniu 20-02-24 o 12:53, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
> since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
> user can pick the language in that case.
This is my goal, what do I need to do to make changes to OSM legally?
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

On 24/02/2020 06:53, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=`
tag for the Baltic Sea.

It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
surrounding by a large number of language areas.

For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
user can pick the language in that case.

- Joseph Eisenberg


As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the 
use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly 
applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include English, 
or only marginally so), and one about the communication language in this 
list.  This second point has attracted most attention, and has made it 
hard to keep a constructive discussion about the first.


2: my writing back in French, and hints to Tomek to do the same, or to 
choose German, was a way to shush away the language fight, and keep the 
discussion going.  I finally switched to Italian in despair, because I 
wanted Tomek to feel like I feel looking at his two hardly intelligible 
niche languages, none of them listed in 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers, 
nor appearing in the 1997 George Weber’s list of 10 most influential 
languages.


3: I think there's a third point related to internationalization, not at 
this surface language level, but deeper, when presenting concepts behind 
concrete tags in a way that would be more recognizable by non-European 
mappers.  (I include into "European" everybody with roots in Europe.)  I 
think this is a relevant point, not least because I keep seeing edits in 
Panama changing `unclassified` to `track` only because (this is my 
interpretation): the road is unpaved, people prefer looking at pictures 
than reading, the picture for the agricultural `track` looks much more 
recognizable than the one for the `unclassified` road, possibly and 
marginally because `unclassified` does not ring any bell outside the UK.


1: at some point in the discussion, I myself suggested adding a 
`label:=` tag, so that larger water masses would have 
several names, each positioned near the corresponding language area.


1: also someone (sorry for not looking it up) mentioned "the" map having 
become "the map" not intentionally, but as if by chance or 
misunderstanding.  OSM is a database, and when looking at 
openstreetmap.org you see a possible rendering, in the default 
language.  look at openstreetmap.fr and it will be in French, or 
openstreetmap.de/karte.html for German.


1: actually, please think about the three above examples (.org, .fr, 
.de), and you might see that indeed the `name` tag is out of place, 
since "the map" does not exist outside of the example running on 
openstreetmap.org.  But, Tomek, I would start by making the point there, 
and suggest their renderer to be fixed, and to be heard you need to 
write in English, since you would be speaking to British people.


Tomek, you have a point in what you write, but please have yourself 
heard, and not just experienced as nasty and conflictive.  People, let's 
try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek, please help us 
here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications.


https://web.archive.org/web/20110927062910/http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm

ciao, MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> it *is* worth discussing if (or why) the "name" tag on a body
of water bordered by a number of countries neither of which has English
as an official language, should contain the English name.

I agree. Unfortunately the message has been confused by the poor presentation.

It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=`
tag for the Baltic Sea.

It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans,
continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would
specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as
the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a
rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas
surrounding by a large number of language areas.

For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag,
since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or
user can pick the language in that case.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/24/20, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 24. Feb 2020, at 11:44, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>>
>> We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because
>> he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed
>> to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo.
>
>
>
> there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem
> that English is the language which has most people able to understand it
> (shortly before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second
> language). From a practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall
> back to English. This could change in the future, but it would be a long
> way.
> Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other
> languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that
> language isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the
> neighboring countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian
> ...)
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Feb 2020, at 11:44, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> 
> We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because
> he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed
> to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo.



there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem that 
English is the language which has most people able to understand it (shortly 
before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second language). From a 
practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall back to English. This 
could change in the future, but it would be a long way.
Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other 
languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that language 
isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the neighboring 
countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian ...) 

Cheers Martin 


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 23.02.20 23:38, Alan Mackie wrote:
> This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme

It is tediuos but not without merit.

Yes the project was founded by white Englishmen but in other departments
we're trying to extend our reach and make sure that we are also
interesting for non-white non-English non-men. It is not, in principle,
wrong to question some of our existing assumptions, values, or decisions.

I think that while in this particular case the question was asked by
someone on a mission to propagate an aspirational "international
language", it *is* worth discussing if (or why) the "name" tag on a body
of water bordered by a number of countries neither of which has English
as an official language, should contain the English name.

We're currently using English in such situations "by default"; none of
our existing written policies can explain why we do that.

If the result of this discussion is an agreement in the community that
using the English name in the "name" tag whenever a feature is bordered
by two or more countries using different languages (or whatever) is "the
rigth thing to do in OSM", then the discussion will have been valuable.

We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because
he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed
to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-02-23 23:38, Alan Mackie wrote:

This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but
as that seems to be the order of the day:


I can not agree more with this message. I am not even trying to read the 
Polish and Esperanto mails. Yes, I am to lazy to put them in a 
translator because I think it is absolutely unnecessary. I am also not 
posting in Dutch because that will pose the same burden on others and I 
don't think that is the best action to do.
I'm sorry if you feel excluded because you can not or refuse read 
english or think you are being oppressed. I feel excluded in every 
project that is done in Chinese and Japanese. But if they feel that is 
the best language to communicate in, than it is not for me.


The OSM wiki has been translated to many many languages but the main 
page in Esperanto is short at best and many pages have no Esperanto 
translation. Maybe your efforts are better directed to creating some 
international (for you meaning: non-English) traction there.


Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

scusami Tomek, ma perché scrivi in polacco quando nessuno ti capisce?

vuoi discutere (ti prego, cerca il suo significato etimologico), o vuoi 
… come si dice educatamente … "annoiare" ?  (in effetti sono tre le 
parole che mi vengono in mente, e che esprimono con maggior precisione 
il concetto.)


se proprio insisti a non voler scrivere in Inglese, usa il Francese o il 
Tedesco, cioè un'altra lingua internazionale riconosciuta dall'Unione 
Europea, Unione di cui fa parte anche la Polonia, o adattati a che 
ciascuno ti risponda nella lingua che preferisce, facendo di tutto ciò 
una conversazione fra sordi.


while I do think that some terms and images and explanations in the wiki 
should be adapted to other realities (see Highways for Africa), I accept 
the consequences of the fact "OSM is a British foundation".  too bad?  I 
don't know.  and it doesn't matter, it's just as it is.  if I didn't 
accept that, I would go mapping somewhere else.


ave atque vale

MF


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

On Feb 23, 2020, at 3:01 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> 
> ...a sam promujesz jakiś nielogiczny twór promujący tylko jeden naród - 
> Anglików.
(...you promote some illogical creation promoting only one nation - the 
English.)

This simply is not true.  The "creation" is perfectly logical, as the origin 
story of OSM beginning in England is repeated / explained yet again to positive 
effect, and it does not promote "only one nation," rather, it promotes one 
language.  A language spoken as a second language in more countries than any 
other:  what might be called a de facto lingua franca around the world, 
although I and others certainly recognize how this might be seen as hegemonic 
and / or even more offensive, as in "language imperialism" (it isn't, but many 
recognize how it is easy for many to see it that way).  What is meant by "de 
facto" is that it is "in fact" used so extensively:  well over half the 
countries on Earth, with over 1.2 billion speakers — 1 out of 6 humans and 
easily the most spoken and widespread language on the planet.  (That is simply 
a fact).  You might say Mandarin and Cantonese are spoken by about as many, but 
really, largely speaking only in China, and so not nearly as dispersed all over 
the globe as is English.  (This may change in the future with China's apparent 
21st-century ascendency, but let's not get ahead of ourselves).

Tomek, it should be as clear to you now as it is to many of us here that your 
use of Esperanto and Polish, as well as your insistence that widespread usage 
of English in OSM diminish to your specification has failed to gain traction.  
May we ask you quite directly to cease with this campaign of yours, please?  I 
agree with Alan M. that it has become tedious, if not actually beyond that.

SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-23 o 23:38, Alan Mackie pisze:
> This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but
> as that seems to be the order of the day:
> OSM was founded in London, ALL the keys are in English which is used
> far more as a means of international exchange than a niche
> euro-centric language invented in the late 19th century. It makes more
> sense for the 'fallback language" to be in English than something with
> no non-bilingual native speakers and a miniscule number of people
> using it as a second language. Lofty aspirations alone do not make
> something common, shared or universal, it actually has to be used too,
> and what you are suggesting is used so little as to be a rounding error.
> If you want the whole map in something more "common" then feel free to
> download the database, translate ALL the tags and relaunch your forked
> version. It won't cost very much in hosting because no one will use
> it. Nearly everyone else seems happy with the status quo and those
> that aren't are willing to look for consensus and follow the usual
> processes, not just repeat themselves endlessly without making any new
> points.
> Mechanical edits no not need to be automated, they just need to be
> mindless or done with little thought. I would link to video on this,
> but alas it is in English and I will not expend the effort finding
> something you will likely refuse on principle.
>
Rozmowa jest powtarzalna, masz rację, że:
OSM został założony w Londynie - ale nie jest mapą Londynu, tylko całego
świata;
wszystkie klucze są w języku angielskim - czy ja coś pisałem o zmianie
kluczy, nie rozmowa była o domyślnej nazwie mórz i kontynentów.

Narzekasz na europocentryczność Esperanta, a sam promujesz jakiś
nielogiczny twór promujący tylko jeden naród - Anglików.

Nie masz jakichkolwiek argumentów przeciw mojej edycji. Nie będzie ona
ani bezmyślna, ani wykonana bez zastanowienia.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Alan Mackie]

This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but as
that seems to be the order of the day:
OSM was founded in London, ALL the keys are in English which is used far
more as a means of international exchange than a niche euro-centric
language invented in the late 19th century. It makes more sense for the
'fallback language" to be in English than something with no non-bilingual
native speakers and a miniscule number of people using it as a second
language. Lofty aspirations alone do not make something common, shared or
universal, it actually has to be used too, and what you are suggesting is
used so little as to be a rounding error.
If you want the whole map in something more "common" then feel free to
download the database, translate ALL the tags and relaunch your forked
version. It won't cost very much in hosting because no one will use it.
Nearly everyone else seems happy with the status quo and those that aren't
are willing to look for consensus and follow the usual processes, not just
repeat themselves endlessly without making any new points.
Mechanical edits no not need to be automated, they just need to be mindless
or done with little thought. I would link to video on this, but alas it is
in English and I will not expend the effort finding something you will
likely refuse on principle.


On Sun, 23 Feb 2020 at 21:35, Tomek  wrote:

> W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>
> Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
> a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
> and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
> problems.
>
> Estas maloportune, ke estas facile aldoni erarajn datumojn al OSM, sed por
> forigi ilin bezonas fari specialan paĝon ĉe vikio.
>
> W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>
> This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
> consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
> changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
> standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
> for editing all the seas and oceans.
>
> Mi volas redakti ĉiujn punktojn individue, konsiderante ĉiun ŝanĝon, do
> mia redakto ne kvalifikos kiel “aŭtomata redakto”.
>
> W dniu 20-02-18 o 07:09, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>
> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>
> completely remove this marker.
>
> I'm almost certain that this translation is wrong. It doesn't make sense.
>
> Could you check the correct translation of "por kontinentoj, oceanoj,
> polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi
> etikedon."
>
> Does this mean "... NOT bordering any country"? That's what Google
> translate suggests: " for continents, oceans, poles and seas that are
> next to none country, completely remove this tag."
>
> (Still wrong but at least I can understand it... That's the problem
> with relying on automated translation software... it doesn't work
> well.)
>
> Aŭtomataj tradukiloj ne funkcias bone, do anstataŭ uzi ilin, ni ĉiu parolu
> en komuna internacia lingvo, tia lingvo aperis en la jaro 1887.
>
> W dniu 20-02-18 o 09:47, Frederik Ramm pisze:
>
> I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I
> think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother
> tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an
> international thing in English.
>
> In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this
> English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as
> fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other
> battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM.
>
> Uzeblo? Mi diris tion antaŭe: redaktiloj iD k JOSM, aplikaĵo OsmAnd (kaj
> probable aliaj programoj) uzas tradukitajn etikedojn “name:LINGVO”. Mi ne
> havus problemon, se ĉiuj nomoj en OSM estu en la pola lingvo.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
> a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
> and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
> problems.
Estas maloportune, ke estas facile aldoni erarajn datumojn al OSM, sed
por forigi ilin bezonas fari specialan paĝon ĉe vikio.

W dniu 20-02-18 o 05:48, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
> consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
> changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
> standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
> for editing all the seas and oceans.
Mi volas redakti ĉiujn punktojn individue, konsiderante ĉiun ŝanĝon, do
mia redakto ne kvalifikos kiel “aŭtomata redakto”.

W dniu 20-02-18 o 07:09, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
> completely remove this marker.
>
> I'm almost certain that this translation is wrong. It doesn't make sense.
>
> Could you check the correct translation of "por kontinentoj, oceanoj,
> polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi
> etikedon."
>
> Does this mean "... NOT bordering any country"? That's what Google
> translate suggests: " for continents, oceans, poles and seas that are
> next to none country, completely remove this tag."
>
> (Still wrong but at least I can understand it... That's the problem
> with relying on automated translation software... it doesn't work
> well.)
Aŭtomataj tradukiloj ne funkcias bone, do anstataŭ uzi ilin, ni ĉiu
parolu en komuna internacia lingvo, tia lingvo aperis en la jaro 1887.

W dniu 20-02-18 o 09:47, Frederik Ramm pisze:
> I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I
> think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother
> tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an
> international thing in English.
>
> In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this
> English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as
> fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other
> battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM.
Uzeblo? Mi diris tion antaŭe: redaktiloj iD k JOSM, aplikaĵo OsmAnd (kaj
probable aliaj programoj) uzas tradukitajn etikedojn “name:LINGVO”. Mi
ne havus problemon, se ĉiuj nomoj en OSM estu en la pola lingvo.
<>

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 17.02.20 21:43, Tomek wrote:
> Object 1:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
> Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
> amenity = bench
> name = Bench
> Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
> what's on the ground" rule?

Yes, I think it is ok, mainly because benches don't usually have names
and if they do, the name will not be "Bench". (This applies to removing
the name while you're mapping in the area anyway - if you were to search
for all amenity=bench name=Bench and remove the name, that would be a
mechanical edit in need of prior discussion.)

Some benches could have names that might perhaps not always be marked by
a sign, just as e.g. some very old trees have names. It is unusual for a
bench or tree to have a name but not generally wrong.

> Object 2:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
> Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
> Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
> Mapped in OSM as:
> place = ocean
> name = Pacific Ocean
> But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
> so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
> Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?

It is a different case from the above (to be comparable with the above
case the name would have to be "Ocean").

I don't have strong feelings about this but for the sake of usability I
think I'd leave the name in place. Even though English is not my mother
tongue I have absolutely no problem with having a name tag on an
international thing in English.

In fact I believe I have a bigger problem with people for whom this
English name is a problem, because I would regard that attitude as
fundamentalist and quarrelsome. I'd prefer if they find other
battlegrounds to fight for justice than OSM.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
completely remove this marker.

I'm almost certain that this translation is wrong. It doesn't make sense.

Could you check the correct translation of "por kontinentoj, oceanoj,
polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi
etikedon."

Does this mean "... NOT bordering any country"? That's what Google
translate suggests: " for continents, oceans, poles and seas that are
next to none country, completely remove this tag."

(Still wrong but at least I can understand it... That's the problem
with relying on automated translation software... it doesn't work
well.)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/18/20, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
> Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
> a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
> and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
> problems.
>
> Also, the correct way to propose automatically changing a large number
> of features is to follow the "Automated Edits code of conduct":
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
>
> This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
> consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
> changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
> standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
> for editing all the seas and oceans.
>
> "You should normally document your proposed edit at an
> English-language wiki page named "Automated edits/username" (where
> username is the OSM user name of the account that you will be using to
> perform the edits - think about this now so that you don't have to
> rename the page later), and add it to Category:Automated edits log.
>
> Your documentation should state:
>
> Who is making the change (preferably your real name and how to contact
> you, ideally e-mail address)
> Your motivation for making the change and why it is important
> A detailed description of the algorithm you will use to decide which
> objects are changed how
> Information about any consultation that you have conducted, with links
> to mailing list/forum posts or Wiki discussion pages
> When the change was made, or how frequently it is going to be repeated
> Information on how to "opt out"
>
> Please read the rest of the information at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
> prior to proceeding.
>
> (FYI, I am personally in favor of removing the English name=* tags for
> continents and oceans, and perhaps for many of the seas, but it's
> important to get consensus about a major edit like this)
>
> - Joseph Eisenberg
>
> On 2/18/20, Tomek  wrote:
>> W dniu 20-02-15 o 19:17, Steve Doerr pisze:
>>> On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:
 - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
 completely remove this marker.
>>>
>>> Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another
>>> mapper's contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>> EO
>> Mi provas provi ke la etikedo “name” por tiuj objektoj estas erara.
>>
>> Objekto 1:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
>> Benko kun neniu skribaĵo, mapigita en OSM kiel:
>> amenity=bench
>> name=Bench
>> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la regulo mi “mi mapigas
>> tion, kion estas sur la tero”?
>>
>> Objekto 2:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
>> Akvo, certege neniu skribaĵo indikanta ĝian nomon.
>> Loka nomo: neniu, ĉar neniu loĝas tie.
>> Mapigita en OSM kiel:
>> place=ocean
>> name=Pacific Ocean
>> Sed poloj nomas ĝin “Ocean Spokojny”, franclingvanoj “Océan Pacifique”,
>> do estus ĝuste aldoni la etikedojn name:pl, name:fr, ktp.
>> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la sama regulo?
>>
>>
>> EN (machine translation)
>> I'm trying to prove that the tag "name" for those objects is wrong.
>>
>> Object 1:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
>> Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
>> amenity = bench
>> name = Bench
>> Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
>> what's on the ground" rule?
>>
>> Object 2:
>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
>> Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
>> Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
>> Mapped in OSM as:
>> place = ocean
>> name = Pacific Ocean
>> But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
>> so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
>> Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?
>>
>>
>>
>> W dniu 20-02-16 o 12:44, Florimond Berthoux pisze:
>>>
>>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I
>>> will
>>> completely remove this marker.
>>>
>>>
>>> Warning, without giving my opinion

Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Since this issue is somewhat controversial, it would be best to create
a proposal page to suggest the proper way to tag continents, oceans
and seas - these tags were never formally discussed, and have some
problems.

Also, the correct way to propose automatically changing a large number
of features is to follow the "Automated Edits code of conduct":
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct

This includes "systematic edits to the database by other means without
consideration of each change. This policy also applies to substantial
changes made using 'find and replace' or similar functions within
standard editors such as JOSM" - so I believe this would be the case
for editing all the seas and oceans.

"You should normally document your proposed edit at an
English-language wiki page named "Automated edits/username" (where
username is the OSM user name of the account that you will be using to
perform the edits - think about this now so that you don't have to
rename the page later), and add it to Category:Automated edits log.

Your documentation should state:

Who is making the change (preferably your real name and how to contact
you, ideally e-mail address)
Your motivation for making the change and why it is important
A detailed description of the algorithm you will use to decide which
objects are changed how
Information about any consultation that you have conducted, with links
to mailing list/forum posts or Wiki discussion pages
When the change was made, or how frequently it is going to be repeated
Information on how to "opt out"

Please read the rest of the information at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
prior to proceeding.

(FYI, I am personally in favor of removing the English name=* tags for
continents and oceans, and perhaps for many of the seas, but it's
important to get consensus about a major edit like this)

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/18/20, Tomek  wrote:
> W dniu 20-02-15 o 19:17, Steve Doerr pisze:
>> On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:
>>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>>> completely remove this marker.
>>
>> Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another
>> mapper's contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.
>>
>> Steve
>>
> EO
> Mi provas provi ke la etikedo “name” por tiuj objektoj estas erara.
>
> Objekto 1:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
> Benko kun neniu skribaĵo, mapigita en OSM kiel:
> amenity=bench
> name=Bench
> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la regulo mi “mi mapigas
> tion, kion estas sur la tero”?
>
> Objekto 2:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
> Akvo, certege neniu skribaĵo indikanta ĝian nomon.
> Loka nomo: neniu, ĉar neniu loĝas tie.
> Mapigita en OSM kiel:
> place=ocean
> name=Pacific Ocean
> Sed poloj nomas ĝin “Ocean Spokojny”, franclingvanoj “Océan Pacifique”,
> do estus ĝuste aldoni la etikedojn name:pl, name:fr, ktp.
> Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la sama regulo?
>
>
> EN (machine translation)
> I'm trying to prove that the tag "name" for those objects is wrong.
>
> Object 1:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
> Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
> amenity = bench
> name = Bench
> Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
> what's on the ground" rule?
>
> Object 2:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
> Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
> Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
> Mapped in OSM as:
> place = ocean
> name = Pacific Ocean
> But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
> so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
> Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?
>
>
>
> W dniu 20-02-16 o 12:44, Florimond Berthoux pisze:
>>
>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>> completely remove this marker.
>>
>>
>> Warning, without giving my opinion, I don't know all involvements.
>> Data should not be lost!
> EO
> Neniuj datumoj perdiĝos, la angla nomo estos en la etikedo “name:en”!
> EN
> No data will be lost, the English name will be labeled "name:en"!
> FR
> Aucune donnée ne sera perdue, le nom anglais sera étiqueté "name:en"!
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-02-15 o 19:17, Steve Doerr pisze:
> On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:
>> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
>> completely remove this marker.
>
> Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another
> mapper's contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.
>
> Steve
>
EO
Mi provas provi ke la etikedo “name” por tiuj objektoj estas erara.

Objekto 1:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
Benko kun neniu skribaĵo, mapigita en OSM kiel:
amenity=bench
name=Bench
Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la regulo mi “mi mapigas
tion, kion estas sur la tero”?

Objekto 2:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
Akvo, certege neniu skribaĵo indikanta ĝian nomon.
Loka nomo: neniu, ĉar neniu loĝas tie.
Mapigita en OSM kiel:
place=ocean
name=Pacific Ocean
Sed poloj nomas ĝin “Ocean Spokojny”, franclingvanoj “Océan Pacifique”,
do estus ĝuste aldoni la etikedojn name:pl, name:fr, ktp.
Ĉu estas ĝuste forigi la etikedon “name” laŭ la sama regulo?


EN (machine translation)
I'm trying to prove that the tag "name" for those objects is wrong.

Object 1:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jardin_El_Capricho_Bench_at_Plaza_de_los_Emperadores.jpg
Bench with no writing, mapped to OSM as:
amenity = bench
name = Bench
Is it right to remove the label "name" according to the "I'm mapping
what's on the ground" rule?

Object 2:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Turquoise_Water.jpg
Water, certainly no writing indicating its name.
Local name: nobody, because nobody lives there.
Mapped in OSM as:
place = ocean
name = Pacific Ocean
But Poles call it "Ocean Spokojny", French-speaking "Océan Pacifique",
so it would be fair to add the tags name:pl, name:fr, etc.
Is it OK to remove the "name" tag according to the same rule?



W dniu 20-02-16 o 12:44, Florimond Berthoux pisze:
>
> - for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
> completely remove this marker.
>
>  
> Warning, without giving my opinion, I don't know all involvements.
> Data should not be lost!
EO
Neniuj datumoj perdiĝos, la angla nomo estos en la etikedo “name:en”!
EN
No data will be lost, the English name will be labeled "name:en"!
FR
Aucune donnée ne sera perdue, le nom anglais sera étiqueté "name:en"!
<>

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mario Frasca]

Per piacere, non farlo. Non è questa la conclusione della discussione 
che si è tenuta qui. Sono stati espressi pareri, e la discussione si è 
esaurita, credo perché troppo distanti le posizioni dei partecipanti.


Non, je t'en prie, ne fais pas ça. Ça n'est pas du tout la conclusion de 
la discussion ténu ici. On a présenté ses positions, sans atteindre rien 
plus que la présentation de points de vue très différents.


Sent from a Google-owned 华为 Mobile

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Steve Doerr]

On 15/02/2020 17:35, Tomek wrote:

- for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
completely remove this marker.


Don't do that. The golden rule should be: never remove another mapper's 
contribution unless it's incontrovertibly wrong.


Steve

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

EO
La diskuto silentiĝis, do mi skribas denove kion mi planas fari:
- por maroj kiuj apudas al iu(j) lando(j), ŝanĝi la etikedon “name” por
enhavi nomojn en oficialaj lingvoj de ĉiuj apudaj landoj, jes, mi scias,
ke tiu nomo povas esti tre longa;
- por kontinentoj, oceanoj, polusoj kaj maroj kiuj apudas al neniu
lando, tute forigi tiun ĉi etikedon.

Argumentoj por mia redakto:
- la nuna nomo (ofte en la angla lingvo) kontraŭas al la regulo ke “nomo
estu tia kiu estas sur la tero”;
- OSM ne estas ilo por politiko, por disvastigi iun ajn idearon (ekz.
anglan imperiismon).



PL
Dyskusja ucichła, więc piszę jeszcze raz co zamierzam zrobić:
- dla mórz graniczących z pewnymi państwami, zmienię etykietę “name” aby
zawierała nazwy w oficjalnych językach wszystkich sąsiadujących państw –
jestem świadomy tego, że tak powstała nazwa może być bardzo długa, jako
alternatywę można usunąć nazwę całkowicie;
- dla kontynentów, oceanów, biegunów i mórz graniczących z żadnym
państwem, całkowicie usunę ten znacznik.

Argumenty za moją edycją:
- obecna nazwa (zwykle w języku angielskim) przeczy regule “nazwa
powinna być taka jak na ziemi”;
- OSM nie jest narzędziem do prowadzenia polityki, do szerzenia
jakiejkolwiek ideologii (np. angielskiego imperializmu)



EN (automatic translation)
The discussion has died down, so I write again what I'm going to do:
- for seas bordering certain States, I will change the "name" label so
that it contains names in the official languages of all neighboring
States-I know that this way the resulting name can be very long,
alternatively you can delete the name completely;
- for continents, oceans, poles, and seas bordering any state, I will
completely remove this marker.

Arguments for my edit:
- the current name (usually in English) contradicts the rule " the name
must be the same as on earth”;
- OSM is not a tool for conducting politics, for spreading any ideology
(for example, English imperialism)



FR (traduction automatique)
La discussion s'est calmée, alors j'écris à nouveau ce que je vais faire:
- pour les mers bordant certains États, je vais changer l'étiquette
"name" pour qu'elle contienne les noms dans les langues officielles de
tous les États voisins - je sais que le nom ainsi obtenu peut être très
long, sinon vous pouvez supprimer le nom complètement;
- pour les continents, les océans, les pôles et les mers bordant
n'importe quel état, je vais supprimer complètement ce marqueur.

Arguments pour mon édition:
- le nom actuel (généralement en anglais) est contraire à la règle " le
nom doit être comme sur terre”;
- L'OSM n'est pas un outil pour la conduite de la politique, pour la
diffusion d'une idéologie (par exemple, l'impérialisme anglais)
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

On Jan 16, 2020, at 3:24 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> La angla lingvo estas plago de la nuntempa mondo

(The English language is a plague / scourge of the contemporary world).

While I strive to accommodate (and often do) and I resonate well with 
Frederik's pleas to be pragmatic, avoid zealotry and "the usual language on 
this list is English," I can't help but find highly offensive calling my native 
language "plague de la nuntempa mondo."  (Ironic is that I speak some Polish 
and Esperanto as well, but find them to be inappropriate languages here).

I will say that phrase one more time:  "highly offensive."

Tomek, of course I see your point(s), but as my mother says, "you catch more 
flies with honey than you do with vinegar."  Please stop offending this list's 
readers with your opinions, especially as they contain insults to their 
language — that is wholly uncalled for.  I sometimes say to people, "thank you 
for your opinions."  With you, here and now, I do not.

SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-01-12 o 22:25, Alan Mackie pisze:
> The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in
> London in (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the
> main tags are themselves written in English, the official wording of
> the license is in English, the primary documentation is in English,
> the historical discussions about standard practice, most of the
> tools,  etc. etc. etc.. Changing the 'façade' on international objects
> will not change this underlying fact, and I don't think there is good
> enough a reason to.
>
> OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine
> translated into Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have
> to do is fork it. I suspect the forked project will see far less use,
> especially if you choose a niche constructed language that never
> really caught on.
>
> Meanwhile, a great number of international endeavours are currently
> conducted in English, it has become the Lingua Franca for many things
> now that the original Lingua Franca has gone the way of the Dodo. It
> also has the advantage that it can be expressed with a set of
> characters that is supported by just about every computing device you
> are likely to encounter worldwide without special hardware. Values
> have to support a wider array of characters, but in every case I can
> think of: 'local character set' + ASCII should get you what you need
> to contribute to the database, even if you have lots of regional
> subtags. It will also allow visitors to enter everything except name
> if they can't read the script on the sign, but do know what an object is.
>
> I don't think it makes sense for the main tagging scheme to change
> language and as long as that is true I don't think it makes sense to
> change the name tags on international objects either.
>
PL
Nie rozumiem jaki słoń, jaki pokój?

Angielski jest przekleństwem dziesiejszego świata, uniemożliwia sprawną
komunikację i faworyzuje pewne narody. Język angielski może i jest
popularny, ale ta popularność nie wynika z jego cech, ale tylko i
wyłącznie z potęgi gospodarczej Wielkiej Brytanii i USA, czas już zacząć
korzystać z języka PRAWDZIWIE MIĘDZYNARODOWEGO.

Esperanto również korzysta z alfabetu łacińskiego, nie rozumiem co masz
na myśli?

Wydaje mi się, że próbujesz sprowadzić moją wypowiedź do absurdu: nie
mam zamiaru zmieniać języka znaczników OSM! Chcę tylko usunąć znacznik
„name” z międzynarodowych obiektów, który jest błędny: nazwa powinna być
w lokalnym języku (to co jest na ziemi), skoro nie ma tabliczki/boi z
napisem „Atlantic Ocean”, to dlaczego ma to być w znaczniku „name”?

EO
Mi ne komprenas, kiu elefanto, kiu ĉambro?

La angla lingvo estas plago de la nuntempa mondo, ĝi malfaciligas efikan
komunikadon kaj favoras kelkajn naciojn. La angla lingvo eble estas
populara, sed tiu populareco rezultas nur pro ekonomia povo de Britujo
kaj Usono, jam estas tempo komenci uzi vere INTERNACIAN LINGVON.

Esperanto ankaŭ uzas la latinan alfabeton, mi ne komprenas pri kio vi
parolas?

Ŝajnas, ke vi volas karikaturi mian eldiron: mi ne volas ŝanĝi lingvon
de OSM-etikedoj! Mi nur volas forigi la etikedon “name” el internaciaj
objektoj, kiu kontraŭas al reguloj de OSM: nomo estu en loka lingvo
(tiu, kiu estas videbla el la tero), do se ne estas tabulo/buo kun la
skribaĵo “Atlantic Ocean”, do kial ĝi estas en la etikedo “name”?
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-01-12 o 18:09, Marc Gemis pisze:
> Tomek,
>
> My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
> French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.
>
> But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
> old for that.
> I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
> get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
> this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
> and probably many others.
>
> regards
>
> m.
NL (elektronische vertaler)
Waarom zou iedereen zich aan jou aanpassen en in jouw taal schrijven?
Dit is een internationale lijst, dus laten we schrijven in International
(Esperanto), of proberen het te begrijpen met behulp van elektronische
vertalers. Laten we elkaar respecteren, laten we niet zo egoïstisch zijn.

PL
Dlaczego wszyscy mają się dostosować do Ciebie i pisać w Twoim języku?
To jest międzynarodowa lista, więc piszmy w języku międzynarodowym
(Esperanto), ewentualnie starajmy się zrozumieć używając elektronicznych
tłumaczy. Szanujmy się nawzajem, nie bądźmy tacy samolubni.

EO
Kial vi atendas, ke ĉiuj konformiĝos al ci kaj skribos en cia lingvo?
Tio ĉi estas internacia listo, do ni skribu en internacia lingvo
(Esperanto), eventuale ni provu kompreniĝi per elektronikaj tradukiloj.
Ni respektu reciproke kaj ne estu tiel egoismaj.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Alan Mackie]

>
> if you dig deeper, you can see that OpenStreetMap is not only British,
> there have been some other influences as well, despite the language mostly
> looking like English
>

Well one could argue that any English only 'mostly looks like English' we
have enough loanwords that the whole thing's a bit of a mishmash.  I think
OSM has aimed to be worldwide for as long as that has seemed like it might
be practical (I wasn't involved in those days). These influences will
always be felt, we even have tags in American (horror of horrors 😀). I
think my main point, to the extent that I had one, is that a bit of a
facelift here and there doesn't fundamentally change the underlying bone
structure. It seems a little counterproductive when OSM's every face is a
mask that can be swapped (see openstreetmap.fr, openstreetmap.de etc.) and
we have already written the DNA in "Engl*ish*".

and you would not get a Klingon project but a British one in Klingon
> language ;-)
>

I suppose that's only fair considering we have had to suffer with the
inferior English translations of Shakespeare. I'm having difficulty
picturing a Klingon lawyer anyway despite being fairly sure they appeared
at one point.

On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 at 22:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 12. Jan 2020, at 22:28, Alan Mackie  wrote:
> >
> > The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in
> London in (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the main
> tags are themselves written in English, the official wording of the license
> is in English, the primary documentation is in English, the historical
> discussions about standard practice, most of the tools,  etc. etc. etc..
> Changing the 'façade' on international objects will not change this
> underlying fact, and I don't think there is good enough a reason to.
>
>
> if you dig deeper, you can see that OpenStreetMap is not only British,
> there have been some other influences as well, despite the language mostly
> looking like English
>
>
> >
> > OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine translated
> into Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have to do is fork
> it. I suspect the forked project will see far less use, especially if you
> choose a niche constructed language that never really caught on.
>
>
> and you would not get a Klingon project but a British one in Klingon
> language ;-)
>
> Cheers Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Jan 2020, at 22:28, Alan Mackie  wrote:
> 
> The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in London in 
> (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the main tags are 
> themselves written in English, the official wording of the license is in 
> English, the primary documentation is in English, the historical discussions 
> about standard practice, most of the tools,  etc. etc. etc.. Changing the 
> 'façade' on international objects will not change this underlying fact, and I 
> don't think there is good enough a reason to.


if you dig deeper, you can see that OpenStreetMap is not only British, there 
have been some other influences as well, despite the language mostly looking 
like English 


> 
> OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine translated into 
> Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have to do is fork it. I 
> suspect the forked project will see far less use, especially if you choose a 
> niche constructed language that never really caught on.


and you would not get a Klingon project but a British one in Klingon language 
;-)

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Alan Mackie]

The elephant in the room here is that this is a project founded in London
in (British) English.  Regardless of the 'name' tag, all the main tags are
themselves written in English, the official wording of the license is in
English, the primary documentation is in English, the historical
discussions about standard practice, most of the tools,  etc. etc. etc..
Changing the 'façade' on international objects will not change this
underlying fact, and I don't think there is good enough a reason to.

OpenStreetMap is open source, the whole thing can be machine translated
into Esperanto, Klingon or Latin if you like, all you have to do is fork
it. I suspect the forked project will see far less use, especially if you
choose a niche constructed language that never really caught on.

Meanwhile, a great number of international endeavours are currently
conducted in English, it has become the Lingua Franca for many things now
that the original Lingua Franca has gone the way of the Dodo. It also has
the advantage that it can be expressed with a set of characters that is
supported by just about every computing device you are likely to encounter
worldwide without special hardware. Values have to support a wider array of
characters, but in every case I can think of: 'local character set' + ASCII
should get you what you need to contribute to the database, even if you
have lots of regional subtags. It will also allow visitors to enter
everything except name if they can't read the script on the sign, but do
know what an object is.

I don't think it makes sense for the main tagging scheme to change language
and as long as that is true I don't think it makes sense to change the name
tags on international objects either.


On Sun, 12 Jan 2020 at 17:14, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Tomek,
>
> My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
> French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.
>
> But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
> old for that.
> I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
> get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
> this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
> and probably many others.
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 12:16 AM Tomek  wrote:
> >
> > W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
> > >> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> > > Because this is an English-language list.
> > >
> > >> Kial mi devas uzi
> > >> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> > >> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> > >> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> > > I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
> > >
> > > I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to
> answer you when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I
> repeat myself (as do others here):  because this is an English-language
> list.
> > >
> > > Peace,
> > > SteveA
> > EO
> > Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.
> >
> > PL
> > Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> > Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Marc Gemis]

Tomek,

My mother tongue is Dutch. The second language I learned in school was
French. Then English. I can follow discussions in German as well.

But I'm not going to learn Esperanto, Polish, etc. anymore. I'm too
old for that.
I'm also not going to follow links to some sites that I don't know to
get to some poor translation.. So if you refuse to write in English on
this mailing list, you will no longer be able to communicate with me
and probably many others.

regards

m.

On Sun, Jan 12, 2020 at 12:16 AM Tomek  wrote:
>
> W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
> >> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> > Because this is an English-language list.
> >
> >> Kial mi devas uzi
> >> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> >> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> >> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> > I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
> >
> > I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer 
> > you when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat 
> > myself (as do others here):  because this is an English-language list.
> >
> > Peace,
> > SteveA
> EO
> Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.
>
> PL
> Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
> Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-01-12 o 13:13, Mario Frasca pisze:
> Bonjour Tomek,
> Je ne comprends pas ta obsession pour le espéranto. Pour moi, c'est
> une langue incompréhensible. Nous sommes dans une liste de courriels
> internationaux, il faut utiliser une langue internationaux. Sinon, ça
> se fait une Babel.
> Les Européens doivent comprendre les trois langues: allemand, anglais,
> français, et écrire une. Laisse toi comprendre pour les Européens,
> s'il te plait.
> Grazie.
> Sent from a Google-owned 华为 Mobile
EO
Mi ne komprenas la obsedon pri la angla lingvo. Ĝi havas preskaŭ neniujn
ecojn por internacia komunikado: tre komplika elparolo, kiu ne kongruas
kun skribo, multaj idiotismoj, plurpartaj verboj (pharsal verbs),
neregularaj verboj, aliaj neregularaĵoj, tre vasta vortprovizo (sed ne
vortfarado), ktp.
Kial mi devas kompreni anglan, germanan kaj francan? Ĉu OSM estas nur
por homoj de (okcidenta kaj eĉ ne tuta) Eŭropo? Kial franclingvanoj ne
lernu mian lingvon (la polan)? Estas preskaŭ neeble por plejparo de
homoj ekposedi tri fremdajn naturajn lingvojn, ĉiu havas multe da
neregularaĵoj. Mi nur batalas por egalaj rajtoj: aŭ ĉiu parolas en sia
lingvo (kaj aliuloj provas kompreni lin per ekz. Google Translate), aŭ
ĉiu parolas en komuna internacia lingvo, kiu estas egale facila por
ĉiuj: Esperanto.

PL
Nie rozumiem tej obsesji odnośnie języka angielskiego. Posiada on prawie
żadne cechy do komunikacji międzynarodowej: bardzo skomplikowana wymowa
niezgodna z pisownią, mnóstwo idiomów, czasowniki złożone, czasowniki
nieregularne, inne nieregularności, obszerne słownictwo (ale nie
słowotwórstwo), itp.
Dlaczego muszę zrozumieć angielski, niemiecki i francuski? Czy OSM jest
tylko dla ludzi z (zachodniej i nawet nie całej) Europy? Dlaczego
Francuzi nie mogą nauczyć się mojego języka (polskiego)? Jest prawie
niemożliwe dla większości ludzi biegle władać trzema językami obcymi,
każdy z nich ma mnóstwo nieregularności, wymaga mnóstwa nauki. Ja tylko
walczę o równe prawa: albo każdy mówi w swoim języku (i druga strona
stara się go zrozumieć używając np. Tłumacza Google), albo mówimy
wszyscy w jednym języku międzynarodowym, który jest równie łatwy dla
wszystkich: Esperanto.

FR
https://esperanto.net/fr/apprenez-lesperanto/

EN
https://esperanto.net/en/learn-esperanto/
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-01-12 o 00:04, stevea pisze:
>> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?
> Because this is an English-language list.
>
>> Kial mi devas uzi
>> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
>> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
>> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?
> I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.
>
> I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer you 
> when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat myself 
> (as do others here):  because this is an English-language list.
>
> Peace,
> SteveA
EO
Listoj por uzantoj de angla lingvo:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Tie ĉi estas ĝenerala internacia listo pri OSM-etikedoj.

PL
Listy dla użytkowników języka angielskiego:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Tutaj jest ogólna lista odnośnie znaczników OSM.
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

> Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas?

Because this is an English-language list.

> Kial mi devas uzi
> elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
> skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
> lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?

I speak some Polish, too.  Yet, I don't wish to fight with you.

I will continue to use English here, though I will not continue to answer you 
when you write to the list in Esperanto (or Polish).  Why?  I repeat myself (as 
do others here):  because this is an English-language list.

Peace,
SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

W dniu 20-01-11 o 23:20, stevea pisze:
> On Jan 11, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Tomek  wrote:
>> EN
>> English fanatics, please read the text: 
>> http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf
> No thank you.  I am not a "fanatic" of my mother tongue, I simply use it 
> along with hundreds of millions or billions of others — um, not all of them 
> HERE, of course, but there are enough English speakers here, and there have 
> been since Day 1, to make it an interesting and informative place to have 
> conversations like this.  Not to mention I am multilingual (though my 
> Esperanto is 35-year-old-rusty).
>
> What I would much rather do is continue discussion on this list in English, 
> as we always have.  It is good discussion, but I don't appreciate being 
> name-called ("fanatic") or told to "go learn a new language."  I mentioned 
> that I was a founding member of my university's Esperanto Club, so I know the 
> reasoning behind why people might want to learn the language.  But I don't 
> believe it was ever meant to be rammed down anybody's throat.  (Which is what 
> that felt like).
>
> Opinions are mine.
>
> Thanks for your understanding and peace to you,
> SteveA
Se vi parolas Esperanton, kial vi ĝin ne uzas? Kial mi devas uzi
elektronikan tradukilon por kompreni vian mesaĝon, kaj vi postulas por
skribi en via gepatra lingvo? Mi ne devigas al aliaj homoj lerni mian
lingvon (la polan). Kiu estas fanatikulo tie ĉi?


W dniu 20-01-11 o 23:24, Steve Doerr pisze:
> Please post in English if you want people to understand what you are
> trying to say. Otherwise, feel free to talk to yourself in Esperanto.
https://translate.google.pl/
https://www.bing.com/translator/
https://translate.yandex.com/
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Steve Doerr]

Please post in English if you want people to understand what you are 
trying to say. Otherwise, feel free to talk to yourself in Esperanto.


Steve

On 11/01/2020 22:12, Tomek wrote:

EO
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.

I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.

But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.
Vi povas paroli en la pola, kiu estas mia denaska lingvo. Mi ne miras, 
ke vi malsukcesis komunikadi per fikcia/arta lingvo kreita por 
prezenti mondon de hobitoj kaj elfoj. Latino taŭgas por nomi speciojn 
kaj por estroj de katolika eklezio. Esperanto fakte estas la plej 
efika maniero por komunikadi kaj ne diskriminacias iun ajn.


W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:

This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
tag.
Kiuj lokalaj mapigistoj? Ni parolas pri nomoj de Suda Oceano kaj 
insuloj proksime de Antarkto!


W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael > wrote:


On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim
at 56° N18°
> > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
Bałtyckie",
> > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
>
>
> > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
>
> For the count, +1 against.
And another +1, against.


Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.

--
Paul

Voĉoj sen klarigo (kaj sen proponita solvo) ne enkalkulas.
-3



PL
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.

I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.

But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.
Możesz pisać w języku polskim, który jest moim językiem. Nie dziwię 
się, że nie zdołałeś się porozumieć używając fikcyjneko/artystycznego 
języka prezentującego świat hobbitów i elfów. Łacina nadaje się tylko 
do nazywania gatunków i dla szefów Kościoła katolickiego. Esperanto w 
rzeczywistości jest najbardziej efektywnym sposobem na komunikację i 
nie dyskryminuje kogokolwiek. Polecam tekst (pisany przez anglika): 
https://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/util/espglobal/


W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:

This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
tag.
Którzy lokalni mapowicze? Mówimy o nazwach mórz Oceanu Południowego i 
wysp w pobliżu Antarktydy!


W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael > wrote:


On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim
at 56° N18°
> > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
Bałtyckie",
> > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
>
>
> > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
>
> For the count, +1 against.
And another +1, against.


Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.

--
Paul
Głosy bez wyjaśnienia (i bez zaproponowanego rozwiązania) nie wliczają 
się.

-3



EN
English fanatics, please read the text: 
http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf



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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[stevea]

On Jan 11, 2020, at 2:12 PM, Tomek  wrote:
> EN
> English fanatics, please read the text: 
> http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf

No thank you.  I am not a "fanatic" of my mother tongue, I simply use it along 
with hundreds of millions or billions of others — um, not all of them HERE, of 
course, but there are enough English speakers here, and there have been since 
Day 1, to make it an interesting and informative place to have conversations 
like this.  Not to mention I am multilingual (though my Esperanto is 
35-year-old-rusty).

What I would much rather do is continue discussion on this list in English, as 
we always have.  It is good discussion, but I don't appreciate being 
name-called ("fanatic") or told to "go learn a new language."  I mentioned that 
I was a founding member of my university's Esperanto Club, so I know the 
reasoning behind why people might want to learn the language.  But I don't 
believe it was ever meant to be rammed down anybody's throat.  (Which is what 
that felt like).

Opinions are mine.

Thanks for your understanding and peace to you,
SteveA
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Tomek]

EO
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
> for an international communication is
> usually not imperialism.
>
> I can try to communicate with group of  people
> from different countries in Polish,
> Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
>
> But except rare cases using English is likely
> to result in more efficient communication.
Vi povas paroli en la pola, kiu estas mia denaska lingvo. Mi ne miras,
ke vi malsukcesis komunikadi per fikcia/arta lingvo kreita por prezenti
mondon de hobitoj kaj elfoj. Latino taŭgas por nomi speciojn kaj por
estroj de katolika eklezio. Esperanto fakte estas la plej efika maniero
por komunikadi kaj ne diskriminacias iun ajn.

W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
> back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
> style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
> it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
> something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
> tag.
Kiuj lokalaj mapigistoj? Ni parolas pri nomoj de Suda Oceano kaj insuloj
proksime de Antarkto!

W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
> On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael  > wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> > On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim at
> 56° N18°
> > > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
> Bałtyckie",
> > > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
> >
> >
> > > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
> >
> > For the count, +1 against.
> And another +1, against.
>
>
> Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.
>
> -- 
> Paul
Voĉoj sen klarigo (kaj sen proponita solvo) ne enkalkulas.
-3



PL
W dniu 20-01-07 o 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny pisze:
> Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
> for an international communication is
> usually not imperialism.
>
> I can try to communicate with group of  people
> from different countries in Polish,
> Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
>
> But except rare cases using English is likely
> to result in more efficient communication.
Możesz pisać w języku polskim, który jest moim językiem. Nie dziwię się,
że nie zdołałeś się porozumieć używając fikcyjneko/artystycznego języka
prezentującego świat hobbitów i elfów. Łacina nadaje się tylko do
nazywania gatunków i dla szefów Kościoła katolickiego. Esperanto w
rzeczywistości jest najbardziej efektywnym sposobem na komunikację i nie
dyskryminuje kogokolwiek. Polecam tekst (pisany przez anglika):
https://eduinf.waw.pl/esp/util/espglobal/

W dniu 20-01-07 o 02:32, Joseph Eisenberg pisze:
> This will not work, because local mappers will constantly be adding
> back "name=*" tags to get the feature to appear in their favorite map
> style. If you want to define that a feature has no default language,
> it would be good to use a new tag like "default:language=none" or
> something similar, but it will be hard to determine when to use such a
> tag.
Którzy lokalni mapowicze? Mówimy o nazwach mórz Oceanu Południowego i
wysp w pobliżu Antarktydy!

W dniu 20-01-07 o 13:28, Paul Allen pisze:
> On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 at 12:21, ael  > wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 10:59:35PM +0100, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> > On 06.01.2020 21:32, Tomek wrote:
> > > Exactly, does a buoy with the inscription "Baltic Sea" swim at
> 56° N18°
> > > E? No, there is simply water that Poles call the "Morze
> Bałtyckie",
> > > Germans "Ostsee", etc.
> >
> >
> > > Please support (vote) my proposal or write a reason why not.
> >
> > For the count, +1 against.
> And another +1, against.
>
>
> Bringing back memories of AOL, me too.  +1 against.
>
> -- 
> Paul
Głosy bez wyjaśnienia (i bez zaproponowanego rozwiązania) nie wliczają się.
-3



EN
English fanatics, please read the text:
http://sylvanzaft.org/verkaro/Esperanto-A_Language_for_a_Global_Village.pdf

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[stevea]

That is an outstanding way to say a whole bunch of good stuff all at once.  +1 
is an understatement.
SteveA

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Martin Constantino–Bodin]

Thank you for this message! You are completely right.

I meant relatively simple in the sense that there are two “obvious” 
languages to which a large majority of the region’s speakers minimally 
relate to. But you are completely right that it is already an 
oversimplification! I do understand that a surface that big couldn’t be 
as simple as that ☺ So it was definitely a bad example. Sorry about that.


And I think that you made a very good point here: there is no point 
arguing for a best solution, as there will reasonnably be no such thing, 
only compromises. I believe that the proposal from Joseph Eisenberg ( 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format 
) and Mario Frasca (having several “label:language” nodes) are doing 
steps in very good directions. But they won’t solve all of the issues 
raised in this thread.


Regards,
Martin.
P.S.: You include Easter Island in South America. Interesting. I know 
that it is part of Chile, but as it is part of an island relatively far 
away from the mainland, I wouldn’t have associated it with the 
continent. I’m probably wrong, I guess. But yeah, the notion of 
continent is definitely too fuzzy :-\

I fully agree. I was only taking the example of South America because its 
language community is relatively simple given the size of its area ☺ But I 
agree that it’s probably not something that we should actually map. Sorry about 
that: it wasn’t clear in my message.

I don't usually post here to "throw rocks," but I must say that the language communities 
in South America are QUITE diverse — anything but "relatively simple."  In addition to 
the five European languages of Portuguese (#1), Spanish, English, French and Dutch, there are 
dozens of indigenous languages (Quechua, with about 9 million speakers, Guarani, Aymara, another 7 
or 8 million there...) that span the continent.  Additionally, significant numbers are found of 
speakers of Italian, German, Arabic, Welsh, Coratian, Greek, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Romani and 
some clusters of Japanese, Hindustani, Javanese and Rapa Nui and Maori on Easter Island.

Just saying.

This is not an easy situation.  The United Nations has "six official 
languages," that's not ideal, either.  Absolutely anything OSM does will be a 
compromise, but I agree that we should strive for the most appropriate access to a 
culturally-appropriate solution.  Great results seldom come from anything less than 
serious effort.  I encourage continuing work on this important continuing development of 
OSM.  Good dialog here is certainly part of that.

SteveA
California




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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[stevea]

On Jan 10, 2020, at 7:06 AM, Martin Constantino–Bodin 
 wrote:
> I fully agree. I was only taking the example of South America because its 
> language community is relatively simple given the size of its area ☺ But I 
> agree that it’s probably not something that we should actually map. Sorry 
> about that: it wasn’t clear in my message.

I don't usually post here to "throw rocks," but I must say that the language 
communities in South America are QUITE diverse — anything but "relatively 
simple."  In addition to the five European languages of Portuguese (#1), 
Spanish, English, French and Dutch, there are dozens of indigenous languages 
(Quechua, with about 9 million speakers, Guarani, Aymara, another 7 or 8 
million there...) that span the continent.  Additionally, significant numbers 
are found of speakers of Italian, German, Arabic, Welsh, Coratian, Greek, 
Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Romani and some clusters of Japanese, Hindustani, 
Javanese and Rapa Nui and Maori on Easter Island.

Just saying.

This is not an easy situation.  The United Nations has "six official 
languages," that's not ideal, either.  Absolutely anything OSM does will be a 
compromise, but I agree that we should strive for the most appropriate access 
to a culturally-appropriate solution.  Great results seldom come from anything 
less than serious effort.  I encourage continuing work on this important 
continuing development of OSM.  Good dialog here is certainly part of that.

SteveA
California
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10 Jan 2020, 16:06 by martin.bo...@ens-lyon.org
> About oceans, would you advise to not map them entirely
>
Yes. It is subjective, there are multiple conflicting
ways of deciding ocean borders and
even count of them.

But as long as someone maps them as nodes it is easy to
ignore them.
And anyway - ocean labels are something that
is better to label by yourself on your map,rather than import from the external 
source.
> or to use tricks like the “place=neighbourhood” one (which is based on POIs 
> rather than polygons)?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Martin Constantino–Bodin]

I fully agree. I was only taking the example of South America because 
its language community is relatively simple given the size of its area ☺ 
But I agree that it’s probably not something that we should actually 
map. Sorry about that: it wasn’t clear in my message.


About oceans, would you advise to not map them entirely, or to use 
tricks like the “place=neighbourhood” one (which is based on POIs rather 
than polygons)? It feels like both solutions could be problematical.


Regards,
Martin.


The main problem with tagging continents is that there is no agreement
on the number or definition.

While most English-speakers identify 7 political continents, many
people in Latin American call "America" one continent. Eurasia is
often also treated as one continent, leading to 5 continents (with
Africa, Australia and Antarctica).

Geographically, Africa is connected to Asia, with only the artificial
Suez Canal as a barrier, so 4 continents is also logical.

Naming and dividing the oceans leads to similar issues.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The main problem with tagging continents is that there is no agreement
on the number or definition.

While most English-speakers identify 7 political continents, many
people in Latin American call "America" one continent. Eurasia is
often also treated as one continent, leading to 5 continents (with
Africa, Australia and Antarctica).

Geographically, Africa is connected to Asia, with only the artificial
Suez Canal as a barrier, so 4 continents is also logical.

Naming and dividing the oceans leads to similar issues.

- Joseph Eisenberg

On 1/8/20, Mario Frasca  wrote:
> On 07/01/2020 06:53, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote:
>> Maybe we can sometimes factorise? Like “América del Sur / do Sul” for
>> South America
>
> fortunate case: it's América in both languages (Catalan has Amèrica).
>
> you can possibly even use América Meridional and cover both in one shot.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Jo]

You forgot OpenStreetMap.fr and osm.be

On Wed, Jan 8, 2020, 07:18 Michael Collinson  wrote:

> On 2020-01-07 18:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
> 6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:
>
> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  
> wrote:
>
> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South
> America" - this is an example of English imperialism.
>
> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something
> that is widely felt.
>
> regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that
> English is in widespread use because of imperialism.
>
> Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
> for an international communication is
> usually not imperialism.
>
> I can try to communicate with group of  people
> from different countries in Polish,
> Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
>
> But except rare cases using English is likely
> to result in more efficient communication.
>
> Totally agree with Mateusz. English is the current trading language. It
> has been Farsi and other languages in the past. It will probably Mandarin
> Chinese/simplified hanji in the future. But right now it is English.
>
> I think the whole debate misses the point. The OSM database is
> language-agnostic right now. The https://www.openstreetmap.org slippy map
> was intended to A map show-casing the database. But it has turned into THE
> map.
>
> A potential solution is to offer centralised support for other lingual
> (and culture, which is not always the same thing) maps. That of course is a
> much easier thing to say rather than do as it requires time and money
> resource, but it puzzles me why 15 years into the project we only have 4
> layers on our main site.
>
>
> Mike
>
>
> Note that we do have some great projects in the wealthier economies such
> as https://openstreetmap.se/ https://openstreetmap.jp
> https://www.openstreetmap.de/  ... Why aren't these integrated in some
> way into our main site !?
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Michael Collinson]

On 2020-01-07 18:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:

Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to
be "South
America" - this is an example of English imperialism.

This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not
something that is widely felt.

regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning
that English is in widespread use because of imperialism.

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.

I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.

But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.


Totally agree with Mateusz. English is the current trading language. It 
has been Farsi and other languages in the past. It will probably 
Mandarin Chinese/simplified hanji in the future. But right now it is 
English.


I think the whole debate misses the point. The OSM database is 
language-agnostic right now. The https://www.openstreetmap.org slippy 
map was intended to A map show-casing the database. But it has turned 
into THE map.


A potential solution is to offer centralised support for other lingual 
(and culture, which is not always the same thing) maps. That of course 
is a much easier thing to say rather than do as it requires time and 
money resource, but it puzzles me why 15 years into the project we only 
have 4 layers on our main site.



Mike


Note that we do have some great projects in the wealthier economies such 
as https://openstreetmap.se/ https://openstreetmap.jp 
https://www.openstreetmap.de/  ... Why aren't these integrated in some 
way into our main site !?


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Mario Frasca]

On 07/01/2020 06:53, Martin Constantino–Bodin wrote:
Maybe we can sometimes factorise? Like “América del Sur / do Sul” for 
South America


fortunate case: it's América in both languages (Catalan has Amèrica).

you can possibly even use América Meridional and cover both in one shot.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] Tagging the local language

[Martin Constantino–Bodin]

(By the way, I really appreciate the arguments that are given in this 
thread: we’re doing good work here! ☺)


So, it seems that we can’t really make these changes to the OSM database 
because there are technical issues in the OSM renderrers to be solved 
first. In particular, it is currently very difficult to know what is the 
local language(s) to be used in a given area in a map, and we thus 
heavily rely on the “name” tag to display names on the map.


From what you said, you seem very fine with the suggestion to remove 
the “name” tag in regions with no main local language, as soon as there 
is some way to infer the local languages. Please tell me if I’ve 
misunderstand you on this part ☺


If so, we are “only” left with the issue of agreeing with a way to map 
this information, and update the main renderrers. (Both are huge tasks, 
I’m fully aware of that 😅​)


The proposal that Joseph Eisenberg linked ( 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format 
) is very interesting. From what I saw, it seems that it was rejected 
for two reasons: first because linguistic regions are fuzzy and thus 
hard to map, and second because it wasn’t very clear what to do if there 
are more than one language (I mean, it does states that we can separate 
language codes by semicolons, just that some people in the votes seem 
not to know what to render from it if too many languages are listed). It 
seems to me that these are actually very close to the issues that we 
discussed in this thread: we are in a good direction ☺


Mario Frasca noted that the areas that we are discussing (Antarctica, 
Seas, etc.) are actually all regions, not POIs! I completely missed that 
before. So we could definitely choose to put multiple labels, and we can 
even choose to place them next to the corresponding linguistic area. 
This is a cool idea ☺


one reason for mentioning Morocco: it shows how three names is 
perceived as too many.  the impact on South America could be to name 
it in Spanish and Portuguese (two languages), and by this we would 
cover more than 99% of the people living there.  North America would 
need Spanish, English and French, so maybe that would be one language 
too many.


Maybe we can sometimes factorise? Like “América del Sur / do Sul” for 
South America. (Technically, France is partly in South America too, but 
I guess that it is completely fine to forget about it in the same way 
that we can forget about Pomerode when naming the continent because, as 
you said, Spanish and Portuguese covers 99 % of the population.)


(interesting page, that about "Imperialisme linguistique".  the Dutch 
version of it, very short, mentions Morocco for the other reason I 
mentioned it myself: the country has experienced French and Arabic 
cultural imperialism, and is now trying to implement some respect for 
the majority of their (Amazigh) people.  taken to this context, this 
would be the OSM-people who do not read nor write to this list.  mind 
you, the list is called 'talk', not 'talk:en'.)
Indeed, that’s a very good point. And I guess that most OSM mappers are 
actually not following this list. I’m not sure what we can do about that 
here :-\
Interlingua/Lingua Franca would be a nice compromise, at least for 
South America and the seas next to Spain, France, and Italy, where 
more than three languages are recognized and even more spoken, but all 
are neo-latin.  I don't know whether anything like this could apply to 
the Baltic, or to other seas.


The advantage of Interlingua is that it has been designed to be 
understandable without having to learn the language by a large part of 
the European community. It indeed may be a good choice for an 
international map (in the places where there is no obvious local 
language). However, it feels like this should be a choice left to the 
renderrer, not the OSM database. That’s why I would be in favor of any 
additional tag as you suggested above.


About the Baltic Sea, maybe the Interslavic language and its children 
(Slovianto, Neoslavonic) would be possible candidates? It will be 
difficult to choose anyway, as the Finnish language has very different 
origin than the other languages spoken in the region. That’s in general 
why I don’t think that there should be only one language… but as people 
considers that more than two languages is too much on the map, some 
choice will have to be made.


anyhow, leaving implementations aside, I think that a bit more 
language-culture agnosticism would not harm OSM. 


I fully agree ☺ And I think that this would be a great value for the OSM 
community over the world. 😊​


Regards,
Martin.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Martin Constantino–Bodin]

Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South

America" - this is an example of English imperialism.

This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not
something that is widely felt.


regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning
that English is in widespread use because of imperialism.

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.


I am also not a fan of blaming history for the current situation and 
taking the long road because you don't like that history.
It would mean that I couldn't speak dutch with my Surinam friends just 
because 400 years ago the ideas of how we should conduct ourselves 
were different.


That is just counterproductive. 


Indeed. But it should be taken with some care.

In particular there is a huge difference between using English as a 
vehicular language, and using US or UK base culture references. A simple 
example of this is the imperial system: it is currently in use in very 
few countries (and even here in the UK, it has mostly been replaced by 
metric measures everywhere). Yet, you will see a lot of people using 
these depreciated units just because they think that it comes with the 
English package. This is very sad for me.


Another think to keep in mind is that English is a difficult language. 
There is a scientific consensus in this, and yet a lot of people seems 
to deny this based on bare opinion (usually held people speaking less 
than three languages…). Thus, is it extremely important, in the sake of 
equality, that when a native is discussing with a non-native with 
difficulties speaking or understanding, that the native avoid unusual 
words, idioms, etc. Doing otherwise would be a very effective way to 
make the non-native feel stupid, or to just not listen to him/her 
because “he/she doesn’t understand”… which is just a perfect 
illustration of the consequences of imperialism.


One of the base of the Esperanto movement, but also the simple/basic 
English Wikipedia project, was precisely to fight against these 
inequalities caused by the difficulty of the French and English 
languages in a constructive way. (It’s not the only goals of these 
movements.)


In short, indeed there has been a lot of past imperialism, but these 
kind of things can be insidious and still continue. I really don’t think 
that we want to unconsciously impose such culture in our community. This 
is why I believe that we should be very careful with people trying to 
impose an English name for the “name” tag in places where it is 
absolutely not fit (see 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/424311641/history for a sad example). 
Or state that this mailing list is English-only knowing that someone 
subscribing to it is not warned about it beforehand.


Regards,
Martin.


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-01-07 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:


sent from a phone

On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:

Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South

America" - this is an example of English imperialism.

This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not
something that is widely felt.


regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning
that English is in widespread use because of imperialism.

Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.


I am also not a fan of blaming history for the current situation and 
taking the long road because you don't like that history.
It would mean that I couldn't speak dutch with my Surinam friends just 
because 400 years ago the ideas of how we should conduct ourselves were 
different.


That is just counterproductive.

Regards,
Maarten

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects

[Mateusz Konieczny]

6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen  wrote:
>>
>>> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South
>>> America" - this is an example of English imperialism.
>>>
>>
>> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that 
>> is widely felt.
>>
>
>
>
> regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English 
> is in widespread use because of imperialism. 
>
Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons
for an international communication is
usually not imperialism.
I can try to communicate with group of  people
from different countries in Polish,
Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto.
But except rare cases using English is likely
to result in more efficient communication.___
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