Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Andrew Guertin 
wrote:

> On 01/04/2017 03:03 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 1:04 AM, Steve Bennett 
>> wrote:
>> I've yet to hear of any evidence that OSM is being used at all.  I'm sure
>> someone from our web team might be able to locate Niantic IPs if we really
>> drilled down and it happened recently enough that we would still have the
>> logs before logrotate got 'em.  But, IMO, that seems rather far to go for
>> something for which there is basically only wild conjecture to back so
>> far.
>>
>
> http://pokemongohub.net/pokemon-go-spawn-points-modeled-
> open-street-map-data/
>
> Is this the kind of evidence you're looking for?


It's on the right track, but considering that OpenStreetMap is supposed to
be modeling the ground truth, and we're only looking at the consumer end
and not the data end of the equation, I remain unconvinced based on the
available information.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Andrew Guertin]

On 01/04/2017 03:03 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 1:04 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
I've yet to hear of any evidence that OSM is being used at all.  I'm sure
someone from our web team might be able to locate Niantic IPs if we really
drilled down and it happened recently enough that we would still have the
logs before logrotate got 'em.  But, IMO, that seems rather far to go for
something for which there is basically only wild conjecture to back so far.


http://pokemongohub.net/pokemon-go-spawn-points-modeled-open-street-map-data/

Is this the kind of evidence you're looking for?

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Russ Nelson]

Bill Ricker writes:
 > The PokeStop was at our exact target,  "1899 MIT Observatory site" which is
 > moderately well known (on the park map, in FourSquare). [1]

 > http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663159#map=19/42.44109/-71.08359=D

https://www.ingress.com/intel?pll=42.441303,-71.085092

 > This six year old OSM "man made/man mad/Survey point" is the only online
 > reference to this point i've found ... aside from the PokeGo Gym ... for
 > this disk.

 > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6007454#map=16/42.4433/-71.0844=D

https://www.ingress.com/intel?pll=42.441213,-71.084321

They're Ingress portals, well-known to be the source of Pokestops. You
won't be able to visit those links unless you sign up for Ingress,
just sayin'.

-- 
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

As an ingress player, I can confirm use of ingress data for pokestops and
gyms. Same location descriptions and images submitted by ingress players.
Ingress saw a huge influx of new users when Pokemon Go launched. People
created ingress accounts just so that they could use the ingress Intel map
to find pokestops since (in typical niantic fashion) they did not supply
this useful information to players directly.

The thing that is (MAYBE!) being pulled from OSM is Pokemon spawn locations
along pedestrian features and "biomes" which (I think) are land use area
that spawn specific types of Pokemon. So water ones around rivers, canals
and lakes.

Toby

On Jan 5, 2017 4:20 PM, "Rihards"  wrote:

On 2017.01.05. 22:34, Bill Ricker wrote:
> I have a possible confirmation that PokeGo is using OSM Points of
> Interest to populate features, but not of edit vandalism.
>
> We went onto local hiking trails to document some local science history,
> taking my daughter along for company and having someone under 50 to keep
> an eye on us oldsters. She brought her iPhone and PokeGo of course. (I'd
> expected her to be my photographic "2nd shooter", oh well.)  She
> reported that our destination included both a PokeGo Gym and a PokeStop.
>
> The PokeStop was at our exact target,  "1899 MIT Observatory site" which
> is moderately well known (on the park map, in FourSquare). [1]
>
> But the Gym was a horizontal control benchmark "BLOOM 1934" which is NOT
> in published catalogs (USGS, MASSDOT, Geocache.com) of benchmarks. It
> appears to be part of the MAGS 1934 survey, does not appear to have
> elevation stamped, consistent with other MAGS 1934 disks. Is it not
> cataloged because not required in final control mesh?  [2]
> (I have added the disk name "BLOOM 1934" to the OSM node today.)

reportedly gyms have been populated from their previous game, ingress.
in ingress they got in by people taking photos of objects and sending
those in.

> Both were added in a 6 year old trail-improvement changeset based on GPS
> hiking track. [3]
> (Which was more uptodate than the published park map and was very
> helpful for old guys taking the gradual slope trail! )
>
> This six year old OSM "man made/man mad/Survey point" is the only online
> reference to this point i've found ... aside from the PokeGo Gym ... for
> this disk.
>
> Alas I did not have her take screen-captures to determine if the
> spelling of feature names is exactly OSM's.
>
> (There's another point in that change set i need to discuss with
> OceanVortex ... will DM on OSM.org ...)
>
> [1]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663159#map=19/42.
44109/-71.08359=D
>
> [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663076
> [3]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6007454#map=16/42.
4433/-71.0844=D
>
>
>
> --
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
>
>
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--
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Rihards]

On 2017.01.05. 22:34, Bill Ricker wrote:
> I have a possible confirmation that PokeGo is using OSM Points of
> Interest to populate features, but not of edit vandalism.
> 
> We went onto local hiking trails to document some local science history,
> taking my daughter along for company and having someone under 50 to keep
> an eye on us oldsters. She brought her iPhone and PokeGo of course. (I'd
> expected her to be my photographic "2nd shooter", oh well.)  She
> reported that our destination included both a PokeGo Gym and a PokeStop.
> 
> The PokeStop was at our exact target,  "1899 MIT Observatory site" which
> is moderately well known (on the park map, in FourSquare). [1]
> 
> But the Gym was a horizontal control benchmark "BLOOM 1934" which is NOT
> in published catalogs (USGS, MASSDOT, Geocache.com) of benchmarks. It
> appears to be part of the MAGS 1934 survey, does not appear to have
> elevation stamped, consistent with other MAGS 1934 disks. Is it not
> cataloged because not required in final control mesh?  [2]
> (I have added the disk name "BLOOM 1934" to the OSM node today.)

reportedly gyms have been populated from their previous game, ingress.
in ingress they got in by people taking photos of objects and sending
those in.

> Both were added in a 6 year old trail-improvement changeset based on GPS
> hiking track. [3]
> (Which was more uptodate than the published park map and was very
> helpful for old guys taking the gradual slope trail! )
> 
> This six year old OSM "man made/man mad/Survey point" is the only online
> reference to this point i've found ... aside from the PokeGo Gym ... for
> this disk.
> 
> Alas I did not have her take screen-captures to determine if the
> spelling of feature names is exactly OSM's.
> 
> (There's another point in that change set i need to discuss with
> OceanVortex ... will DM on OSM.org ...)
> 
> [1]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663159#map=19/42.44109/-71.08359=D
> 
> [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663076
> [3]
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6007454#map=16/42.4433/-71.0844=D
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux 
> 
> 
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-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Bill Ricker]

I have a possible confirmation that PokeGo is using OSM Points of Interest
to populate features, but not of edit vandalism.

We went onto local hiking trails to document some local science history,
taking my daughter along for company and having someone under 50 to keep an
eye on us oldsters. She brought her iPhone and PokeGo of course. (I'd
expected her to be my photographic "2nd shooter", oh well.)  She reported
that our destination included both a PokeGo Gym and a PokeStop.

The PokeStop was at our exact target,  "1899 MIT Observatory site" which is
moderately well known (on the park map, in FourSquare). [1]

But the Gym was a horizontal control benchmark "BLOOM 1934" which is NOT in
published catalogs (USGS, MASSDOT, Geocache.com) of benchmarks. It appears
to be part of the MAGS 1934 survey, does not appear to have elevation
stamped, consistent with other MAGS 1934 disks. Is it not cataloged because
not required in final control mesh?  [2]
(I have added the disk name "BLOOM 1934" to the OSM node today.)

Both were added in a 6 year old trail-improvement changeset based on GPS
hiking track. [3]
(Which was more uptodate than the published park map and was very helpful
for old guys taking the gradual slope trail! )

This six year old OSM "man made/man mad/Survey point" is the only online
reference to this point i've found ... aside from the PokeGo Gym ... for
this disk.

Alas I did not have her take screen-captures to determine if the spelling
of feature names is exactly OSM's.

(There's another point in that change set i need to discuss with
OceanVortex ... will DM on OSM.org ...)

[1]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663159#map=19/42.44109/-71.08359=D
[2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/944663076
[3]
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/6007454#map=16/42.4433/-71.0844=D



-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 1:04 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> Just a question which no one seems to have addressed - is there any
> evidence that Go is actually using a *feed* of OSM data, rather than just a
> one-off dump? It's really rare, IMHO, for anyone to bother with a feed for
> a project like this - so much easier to just get a planet extract, process
> it, and do whatever you want with it. For the Go people to actually
> constantly update from live OSM data seems like a lot of work, for not much
> benefit.


I've yet to hear of any evidence that OSM is being used at all.  I'm sure
someone from our web team might be able to locate Niantic IPs if we really
drilled down and it happened recently enough that we would still have the
logs before logrotate got 'em.  But, IMO, that seems rather far to go for
something for which there is basically only wild conjecture to back so far.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

No, there is no evidence of diffs being used. Heck, there isn't even hard
evidence that they are using OSM data at all yet. And I agree, if they are
actually using OSM, it is most likely a snapshot that gets updated only
periodically.

But once there are enough reddit threads about it, it doesn't matter if
it's true. Anyone remember when a similar thing happened with Apple maps
and 4chan? That time it was all about changing famous street names to
vulgar terms just for the lulz.

Toby

On Jan 4, 2017 8:06 AM, "Steve Bennett"  wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
>   Just a question which no one seems to have addressed - is there any
> evidence that Go is actually using a *feed* of OSM data, rather than just a
> one-off dump? It's really rare, IMHO, for anyone to bother with a feed for
> a project like this - so much easier to just get a planet extract, process
> it, and do whatever you want with it. For the Go people to actually
> constantly update from live OSM data seems like a lot of work, for not much
> benefit.
>
> If they're *not* using live data, then as soon as the Go players realise
> that, then presumably the vandalism will stop.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Steve Bennett]

Hey everyone,

  Just a question which no one seems to have addressed - is there any
evidence that Go is actually using a *feed* of OSM data, rather than just a
one-off dump? It's really rare, IMHO, for anyone to bother with a feed for
a project like this - so much easier to just get a planet extract, process
it, and do whatever you want with it. For the Go people to actually
constantly update from live OSM data seems like a lot of work, for not much
benefit.

If they're *not* using live data, then as soon as the Go players realise
that, then presumably the vandalism will stop.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Michael Andersen]

On søndag den 1. januar 2017 01.32.53 CET Russ Nelson wrote:
> moltonel 3x Combo writes:
>  > While this is only an anecdotal result, there are clearly a lot more
>  > spawns on this walk than in the surrounding area (I regularly get
>  > 10-15 spawns on this 700m footway, but only 1-2 covering the same
>  > distance along the primary to get there).
>  > 
>  > IMHO, the biggest news here is that (a subsidiary of) Google is using
>  > OSM data in a high-profile product.
> 
> OR PoGo is using the fact that a bunch of people walk that way playing
> Pokemon Go than other places.

My experiences playing PoGo while walking around a large forest area near me 
indicate that this is unlikely to be the only explanation.



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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[moltonel]

On 1 January 2017 06:32:53 GMT+00:00, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>moltonel 3x Combo writes:
> > While this is only an anecdotal result, there are clearly a lot more
> > spawns on this walk than in the surrounding area (I regularly get
> > 10-15 spawns on this 700m footway, but only 1-2 covering the same
> > distance along the primary to get there).
> > 
>> IMHO, the biggest news here is that (a subsidiary of) Google is using
> > OSM data in a high-profile product.
>
>OR PoGo is using the fact that a bunch of people walk that way playing
>Pokemon Go than other places.

It's not likely to be PoGo users because playing PoGo here is pretty boring 
because of the rarity of pokestops and the lack of gyms. You could argue that 
it's Android users in general (who didn't opt out of location history), but 
here are a few counter-arguments:

* the comercial part of town has much more footfall, but still comparatively 
few PoGo spawns (about 2-4 between the bridge and the crossroad; nothing at the 
christian church despite high atendance)
* the spawns all along the footway are mostly water types (starmie, psyduck, 
goldeen...) which are known to spawn near rivers/lakes. GM has only maped the 
river that follows along half the footway, not the tributary that follows along 
the other half. Neither river shows up ingame.
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 3:29 AM, Oleksiy Muzalyev <
oleksiy.muzal...@bluewin.ch> wrote:

> It is a good news that new users got involved. But they should be made
> aware that the OSM is a part of an infrastructure of the whole communities.
> For example, the Public Transport of the city of Stockholm, Sweden, is
> based on the OSM map: http://sl.se/en/ . Delivery services, supplying
> people with limited mobility, police departments, trying to maintain an
> order on vast territories, etc. do use the OSM map, sometimes just because
> there is no alternative.


I have pointed this out
,
given my original motivation for getting involved.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

It is a good news that new users got involved. But they should be made 
aware that the OSM is a part of an infrastructure of the whole 
communities. For example, the Public Transport of the city of Stockholm, 
Sweden, is based on the OSM map: http://sl.se/en/ . Delivery services, 
supplying people with limited mobility, police departments, trying to 
maintain an order on vast territories, etc. do use the OSM map, 
sometimes just because there is no alternative.


So editing the OSM map shall not be take too lightly, the new users 
should al least have a look at the corresponding wiki pages or see 
tutorial videos on youtube how to do it right; or even better - attend 
training workshops at an OSM conference.


Best regards,
Oleksiy

On 31.12.16 02:41, Toby Murray wrote:

... it turned out to not
be intentional vandalism, just lack of knowledge.

I do think the bad edits are slowing down though and overall we did
gain some good new users. There are a fair number of people who first
learned about OSM through these posts and there are several posts
about people seeing empty maps of their cities and getting the urge to
fill them in, regardless of Pokemon activity!

Toby

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Toby Murray  wrote:

There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
later so see if it affected anything.

Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly located
inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play ground,
etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game mechanics
by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house. While that
is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to retagging paths,
cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.

I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
bad.

Some places where these discussions are happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/

I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.

Toby

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Russ Nelson]

moltonel 3x Combo writes:
 > While this is only an anecdotal result, there are clearly a lot more
 > spawns on this walk than in the surrounding area (I regularly get
 > 10-15 spawns on this 700m footway, but only 1-2 covering the same
 > distance along the primary to get there).
 > 
 > IMHO, the biggest news here is that (a subsidiary of) Google is using
 > OSM data in a high-profile product.

OR PoGo is using the fact that a bunch of people walk that way playing
Pokemon Go than other places.

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Russ Nelson]

moltonel 3x Combo writes:
 > While this is only an anecdotal result, there are clearly a lot more
 > spawns on this walk than in the surrounding area (I regularly get
 > 10-15 spawns on this 700m footway, but only 1-2 covering the same
 > distance along the primary to get there).
 > 
 > IMHO, the biggest news here is that (a subsidiary of) Google is using
 > OSM data in a high-profile product.

OR PoGo is using the fact that a bunch of people walk that way playing
Pokemon Go than other places.

-- 
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Crynwr supports open source software
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Tobias Zwick]

To have a gamified way to contribute to OSM was my original idea for
StreetComplete[1]. There should be leaderboards, badges/achievements
and different stats, also different quest givers/categories each with
own pictures (like i.e. on WikiMapia), a possibility to form teams and
compete with each other for "dominance" (=contributing most) in cities.

So the game itself would (still) be to directly contribute to OSM itself
but I think this is a good enough basis for a gamey app.

For StreetComplete, it currently develops more into the direction of a
surveyor app, but only because I want to get the basics working first,
so everything is no-frills.

Tobias

[1] see https://github.com/westnordost/StreetComplete

On 30.12.2016 9:43 PM, moltonel wrote:
> 
> 
> On 30 December 2016 18:50:17 GMT+00:00, Paul Johnson  
> wrote:
>> What's the elevator pitch for Kort?
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kort_Game
> 
> It's a gamified way to edit osm, which is good  but unlikely to attract 
> non-OSMers. I'd like something that is more geared towards gamers but still 
> directly usefull for mappers.
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Peter Barth]

Hi,

well, perhaps there are single cases where valid data has been reverted.
But in general new mappers are a good thing and that's why there's a
blog post on the official blog that imho is written in a very inclusive
tone. Perhaps you want to share it in the discussion with the Pokemon Go
players: https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2016/12/30/tips-pokemon-go/

Peda


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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

As an update to my original message:

I have been active on /r/TheSilphRoad over the past couple of days
commenting and clarifying some things. I have seen a couple other
OSMers there too. Yesterday someone started a discussion titled "Our
impact on OSM, might be bad" so at least the POGO community is aware
of the problem now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5ktxli/our_impact_on_osm_might_be_bad/

I've seen a couple of people complain that their valid edits have been
reverted. I'm not sure if that might just be browser caching making it
look like their edits weren't applied or if someone did actually
revert their changes. I have been asking for links to changesets to
investigate but haven't gotten a ping back yet. But please do be
careful to not revert too much.

And if you do revert a changeset, please leave a changeset comment on
the original edit. I reverted one changeset that looked very much like
vandalism but after some discussion with the user it turned out to not
be intentional vandalism, just lack of knowledge.

I do think the bad edits are slowing down though and overall we did
gain some good new users. There are a fair number of people who first
learned about OSM through these posts and there are several posts
about people seeing empty maps of their cities and getting the urge to
fill them in, regardless of Pokemon activity!

Toby

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
> show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
> good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
> under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
> speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
> footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
> later so see if it affected anything.
>
> Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
> lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly located
> inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play ground,
> etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game mechanics
> by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house. While that
> is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to retagging paths,
> cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.
>
> I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
> the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
> worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
> would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
> you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
> probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
> bad.
>
> Some places where these discussions are happening:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/
>
> I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.
>
> Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Ian Dees]

Hi everyone! I think it's safe to say that this thread has wandered way off
topic. Please keep messages constructive and on-topic.

A great place to discuss the license and implications of others' use of OSM
data are the couple legal mailing lists.

Thanks, and happy new year!
-Ian, your friendly list moderator

On Dec 30, 2016 18:38, "Bill Ricker"  wrote:


On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> The ODbL is very clear on what "Publicly" is:
>
> “Publicly” – means to Persons other than You or under Your control by
> either more than 50% ownership or by the power to direct their
> activities (such as contracting with an independent consultant).
> No need to speculate on that point.
>

​Plenty of edge cases remain ... e.g. if a personal work for only family,
is it "public"?  I don't own my mother or adult child 50%+ ... and my
ability to direct their activities has proven limited.
​


> On the other hand, if they were using OSM data to trigger to spawning in a
> specific locations it would still be rather open if that is actually a use
> that is substantial.


​If it's a critical function of the derived work, it's at least arguably
"substantial". ​
PoGo without Pokemon spawning would be no fun at all.


> Up to now I haven't seen any evidence that couldn't be explained in
> numerous other ways that they are really using OSM data.


​Agreed. Hence "Hypothetical" and other hedge words.

I joined this tread to discuss whether a Trap Close would be detectable, to
see if the question is answerable. ​(Is the Poke-rookery named for the
feature it is based upon?)

​Since the # edits with Pokemon in the comment has dropped off sharply,
people aren't being rewarded for doing it; so (at least) one of the
​following is true -
(a) word has gotten out not to put Pokemon in the comment as we'll revert
bogus updates easier that way;
(b) the game has already been fixed to prevent cheating
*  (which may mean delayed data hypothesis is intentionally true )
(c) video's theory isn't true at all
   (the announcement was either hoax or jumping to conclusions based on
coincidence)
(d) delayed data hypothesis is approximately true *but not* by Niantic's
direct intent
 * co-causal: changes to reality induces convergent data changes. Maybe
Google base maps get _some_ approved changes from _their_ (so-called)
"community" eventually, but not coincident with ours (E.g., they got Sarah
Long bridge closure before OSM since it was routing-urgent (i marked it
impassable when it became routing urgent to me!), but we'll often get those
footpaths and local pocket parks first since we our "approval process" is
Admiral Grace M Hopper Approved.)
 * indirect pipeline: or someone (internally or externally to Google)
is filtering our subsets of our changesets into GM/GE inputs and relying
upon (a) not "substantial" use &/or (b) not being noticed &/or (c) not
caring

I think you and I are in general agreement that there is so far little to
no evidence that anything much is happening, so we're just quibbling over
hypothetical potential severity if it were (which would of course depend on
exact particulars and require lawyers) and wondering aloud how/whether we
could ever notice or prove it if so.

Without specific evidence, on the Interwebs, the Bayesian Prior (default
conclusion) should always be high confidence that
 (c) "Someone is Wrong on the Internet" [1]
and low confidence otherwise;
with that as a Prior, the low peak and rapidly decreasing popularity
of "Pokemon" change-set comments in last week increases the other
alternatives somewhat (and the powerset elements likewise as they are NOT
fully mutually exclusive) but doesn't actually degrade (c)'s likelihood
much. I

​[1]  http://m.xkcd.com/386/​

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Bill Ricker]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Simon Poole  wrote:

> The ODbL is very clear on what "Publicly" is:
>
> “Publicly” – means to Persons other than You or under Your control by
> either more than 50% ownership or by the power to direct their
> activities (such as contracting with an independent consultant).
> No need to speculate on that point.
>

​Plenty of edge cases remain ... e.g. if a personal work for only family,
is it "public"?  I don't own my mother or adult child 50%+ ... and my
ability to direct their activities has proven limited.
​


> On the other hand, if they were using OSM data to trigger to spawning in a
> specific locations it would still be rather open if that is actually a use
> that is substantial.


​If it's a critical function of the derived work, it's at least arguably
"substantial". ​
PoGo without Pokemon spawning would be no fun at all.


> Up to now I haven't seen any evidence that couldn't be explained in
> numerous other ways that they are really using OSM data.


​Agreed. Hence "Hypothetical" and other hedge words.

I joined this tread to discuss whether a Trap Close would be detectable, to
see if the question is answerable. ​(Is the Poke-rookery named for the
feature it is based upon?)

​Since the # edits with Pokemon in the comment has dropped off sharply,
people aren't being rewarded for doing it; so (at least) one of the
​following is true -
(a) word has gotten out not to put Pokemon in the comment as we'll revert
bogus updates easier that way;
(b) the game has already been fixed to prevent cheating
*  (which may mean delayed data hypothesis is intentionally true )
(c) video's theory isn't true at all
   (the announcement was either hoax or jumping to conclusions based on
coincidence)
(d) delayed data hypothesis is approximately true *but not* by Niantic's
direct intent
 * co-causal: changes to reality induces convergent data changes. Maybe
Google base maps get _some_ approved changes from _their_ (so-called)
"community" eventually, but not coincident with ours (E.g., they got Sarah
Long bridge closure before OSM since it was routing-urgent (i marked it
impassable when it became routing urgent to me!), but we'll often get those
footpaths and local pocket parks first since we our "approval process" is
Admiral Grace M Hopper Approved.)
 * indirect pipeline: or someone (internally or externally to Google)
is filtering our subsets of our changesets into GM/GE inputs and relying
upon (a) not "substantial" use &/or (b) not being noticed &/or (c) not
caring

I think you and I are in general agreement that there is so far little to
no evidence that anything much is happening, so we're just quibbling over
hypothetical potential severity if it were (which would of course depend on
exact particulars and require lawyers) and wondering aloud how/whether we
could ever notice or prove it if so.

Without specific evidence, on the Interwebs, the Bayesian Prior (default
conclusion) should always be high confidence that
 (c) "Someone is Wrong on the Internet" [1]
and low confidence otherwise;
with that as a Prior, the low peak and rapidly decreasing popularity
of "Pokemon" change-set comments in last week increases the other
alternatives somewhat (and the powerset elements likewise as they are NOT
fully mutually exclusive) but doesn't actually degrade (c)'s likelihood
much. I

​[1]  http://m.xkcd.com/386/​

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Simon Poole]

The ODbL is very clear on what "Publicly" is:

“Publicly” – means to Persons other than You or under Your control by
either more than 50% ownership or by the power to direct their
activities (such as contracting with an independent consultant).

No need to speculate on that point.

On the other hand, if they were using OSM data to trigger to spawning in
a specific locations it would still be rather open if that is actually a
use that is substantial. Up to now I haven't seen any evidence that
couldn't be explained in numerous other ways that they are really using
OSM data.

Simon


Am 30.12.2016 um 22:08 schrieb Bill Ricker:
>
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Clifford Snow
> > wrote:
>
>
> Can you help me understand what part of the ODbL [1] they are
> violating? As far I can tell, they don't modify the data nor do
> they display OSM tiles or make any of the data available
>
>
> (​It was not my assertion, I was hypothetically answering a HOW question.)
>
> OTOH & IANAL
>
> Hypothetically speaking,
> Not making available tiles or data extracts based on OSM data 
> relieves a hypothetical potential infringer from having to make data
> available (Share Alike & Keep Open clauses).
> Any published use* requires Attribution.
> * (Which i interpret as non-intramural use, not contained within a
> household or corporate entity, although that is the sort of think
> lawyers could argue. It's safest to attribute even intramural use
> cases, but not required by license.)
>
> If indeed they are reaping OSM nodes and ways to populate PoGo
> rookeries [an unproven assertion], that would make the whole game a
> "use ... or work[s] produced from the database" and if PoGo doesn't
> count as "public", I don't know what is.  (The players are not
> employees, contractors, or family members of Niantic Labs.)
>
> Hiding the _use_ of OSM data doesn't make the derived work private;
> only hiding the derived work (game, web map, whatever) does; and i
> doubt having to register to play the game would be accepted as making
> all Niantic properties "private" not "public".
> (IANAL but I would wonder if hiding the use could be construed as
> willful and malicious infringement.)
> (If Niantic claims any copyright in their work, it is by definition of
> "copyright" a "published" work. In theory Trade Secret, Patent, and
> Copyright are incompatible IP protections. Only TradeMark plays nicely
> with others.)
>
> #IANAL
>
>
>
> -- 
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux 
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Bill Ricker]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> Can you help me understand what part of the ODbL [1] they are violating?
> As far I can tell, they don't modify the data nor do they display OSM tiles
> or make any of the data available


(​It was not my assertion, I was hypothetically answering a HOW question.)

OTOH & IANAL

Hypothetically speaking,
Not making available tiles or data extracts based on OSM data  relieves a
hypothetical potential infringer from having to make data available (Share
Alike & Keep Open clauses).
Any published use* requires Attribution.
* (Which i interpret as non-intramural use, not contained within a
household or corporate entity, although that is the sort of think lawyers
could argue. It's safest to attribute even intramural use cases, but not
required by license.)

If indeed they are reaping OSM nodes and ways to populate PoGo rookeries
[an unproven assertion], that would make the whole game a "use ... or
work[s] produced from the database" and if PoGo doesn't count as "public",
I don't know what is.  (The players are not employees, contractors, or
family members of Niantic Labs.)

Hiding the _use_ of OSM data doesn't make the derived work private; only
hiding the derived work (game, web map, whatever) does; and i doubt having
to register to play the game would be accepted as making all Niantic
properties "private" not "public".
(IANAL but I would wonder if hiding the use could be construed as willful
and malicious infringement.)
(If Niantic claims any copyright in their work, it is by definition of
"copyright" a "published" work. In theory Trade Secret, Patent, and
Copyright are incompatible IP protections. Only TradeMark plays nicely with
others.)

#IANAL



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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Clifford Snow]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Bill Ricker  wrote:

>
> ​Traditional map copyright violation proof would be adding a Trap Close​
> ... do the have a map that shows name of feature that spawns critters?
> Adding a nonsense footpath to no-where (shaped like a P ? ) in a
> non-existent park and checking if it shows up in the PoGo in a few days
> would do.
>

Can you help me understand what part of the ODbL [1] they are violating? As
far I can tell, they don't modify the data nor do they display OSM tiles or
make any of the data available. In fact Niantic makes every effort to keep
the use of OSM private. It's only through the sleuth work of their users
that we are aware its use.

[1] http://opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/summary/

Best,
Clifford
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OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[moltonel]

On 30 December 2016 18:50:17 GMT+00:00, Paul Johnson  
wrote:
>What's the elevator pitch for Kort?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kort_Game

It's a gamified way to edit osm, which is good  but unlikely to attract 
non-OSMers. I'd like something that is more geared towards gamers but still 
directly usefull for mappers.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Rihards]

On 2016.12.30. 21:19, Bill Ricker wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Paul Johnson  > wrote:
> 
> I wonder how we would politely license-check Niantic... 
> 
> 
> ​Traditional map copyright violation proof would be adding a Trap Close​
> ... do the have a map that shows name of feature that spawns critters?
> Adding a nonsense footpath to no-where (shaped like a P ? ) in a
> non-existent park and checking if it shows up in the PoGo in a few days
> would do.

the reports on this seem to indicate that they do not use anything close
to realtime data - more like a year or more old, according to some
anecdotal evidence.

also, this is not about the visible map data (that still seems to be the
assumption here and there). map data is clearly from google maps.
what the pokemon go community is suggesting - that some of the osm data
is used to make pokemon spawn there more often - or to make specific
types appear. that's vague enough to require a pretty large dataset to
prove to a reasonable degree.

besides the potential lack of attribution, we should concentrate on
attracting pokemon go players as mappers and advertise this potential
connection as a reason to improve the map. even if there turns out to be
no connection, we are better off publicity wise already.

> -- 
> Bill Ricker
> bill.n1...@gmail.com 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux 
-- 
 Rihards

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Bill Ricker]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:07 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> I wonder how we would politely license-check Niantic...


​Traditional map copyright violation proof would be adding a Trap Close​
... do the have a map that shows name of feature that spawns critters?
Adding a nonsense footpath to no-where (shaped like a P ? ) in a
non-existent park and checking if it shows up in the PoGo in a few days
would do.



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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Andrew Wiseman]

Warin said: "Targeting Pokemon contributors falls into a trap... the
assumption that a particular activity/group are all inclined to vandalism.

These new contributors could be very usefull ... if 'we' don't tar them all
with abusive thoughts."

Most definitely, we should assume good faith -- but I've been browsing my
area and noticed some inaccurate edits that are Pokemon related, like users
drawing tons of nonexistent footpaths over what is presumably their house
so they can catch Pokemon there, complete with names like "Looking for
Pokemon", "testing to see if Pokemon spawn here" and "I hope I catch some
here" -- clearly not official names or accurate data. We should definitely
be polite and suggest the correct way to edit, but also be aware of people
making bad or test edits. Some people are mapping the paths and
parks correctly, but a significant number aren't. Who knows, maybe this
could even be a good way to encourage folks to map hiking trails, parks and
so on. Engage Pokemon fans to do their own mapathons!

I was using this to find changesets that included the word "pokemon"
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-changesets?comment=pokemon#2/10.7/-4.9
 --- not the complete set of all Pokemon-related edits, of course, but it's
a start.

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 2:00 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:

> They're using the same map they used in Ingress, a game they launched when
> still part of Google. That one is known to have come from Google. It makes
> sense that any map databases they had when the break happened would still
> be owned by the company; they just wouldn't have maps that included changes
> since then.
>
> A co-worker plays that game, and he and I compared Pokémon places in our
> area with the ones in that game, and they're identical.
>
> -jack
> --
> Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology
>
> On December 30, 2016 9:40:56 AM EST, Paul Johnson 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Targeting Pokemon contributors falls into a trap... the assumption that
>>> a particular activity/group are all inclined to vandalism.
>>
>>
>> Another trap, too:  Assuming that Niantic and/or Nintendo are using
>> OpenStreetMap for this game.  And if they are, then they're doing so
>> without attribution.  Without any attribution and with Niantic no longer
>> part of Alphabet (Google's parent company), it's not clear where they're
>> getting their map from.
>>
>> --
>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 1:00 PM, Jack Burke  wrote:

> They're using the same map they used in Ingress, a game they launched when
> still part of Google. That one is known to have come from Google. It makes
> sense that any map databases they had when the break happened would still
> be owned by the company; they just wouldn't have maps that included changes
> since then.
>
> A co-worker plays that game, and he and I compared Pokémon places in our
> area with the ones in that game, and they're identical.
>

I wonder how we would politely license-check Niantic...
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Jack Burke]

They're using the same map they used in Ingress, a game they launched when 
still part of Google. That one is known to have come from Google. It makes 
sense that any map databases they had when the break happened would still be 
owned by the company; they just wouldn't have maps that included changes since 
then. 

A co-worker plays that game, and he and I compared Pokémon places in our area 
with the ones in that game, and they're identical. 

-jack 
-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On December 30, 2016 9:40:56 AM EST, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Targeting Pokemon contributors falls into a trap... the assumption
>that a
>> particular activity/group are all inclined to vandalism.
>
>
>Another trap, too:  Assuming that Niantic and/or Nintendo are using
>OpenStreetMap for this game.  And if they are, then they're doing so
>without attribution.  Without any attribution and with Niantic no
>longer
>part of Alphabet (Google's parent company), it's not clear where
>they're
>getting their map from.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:01 AM, moltonel  wrote:

> Something like Kort but for non-mapers. Something *I'd want to play*, but
> which allowed me to qa/improve osm during a game session. Probably have AR
> as the main/only play mode, have plenty of osm tags effect the game
> mechanics, and let player upload a note with photo if a real-world object
> doesn't yield the expected game object.


What's the elevator pitch for Kort?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[moltonel]

On 30 December 2016 14:45:54 GMT+00:00, Paul Johnson  
wrote:
>I had a related theory that's pretty much what Google was using Ingress
>for
>last year.  Lost to the ethers is where I theorized in a group hangout
>for
>the local Ingress community that the POIs entered as portal suggestions
>was
>feeding Google Maps, which hit me the same day or the next day.
>
>https://plus.google.com/+PaulJohnsonTulsa/posts/bFdG66yMZV5

It's pretty clear that Google used Ingress to improve its map. Crowdsourced POI 
photos and a huge point cloud of pedestrian traffic. Even if that data was only 
collected as a side-effect, they'd have been pretty dumb not to tap into it. 
And that's actually one thing that kept me away from Ingress even though I 
liked the concept.

I've been thinking about good game concept that is entertaining in its own 
right and can be used directly/actively to improve the map. Something like Kort 
but for non-mapers. Something *I'd want to play*, but which allowed me to 
qa/improve osm during a game session. Probably have AR as the main/only play 
mode, have plenty of osm tags effect the game mechanics, and let player upload 
a note with photo if a real-world object doesn't yield the expected game 
object.  It's not easy. Any takers ? :)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 2:13 AM, David Kewley 
wrote:

> Yes, true. And wouldn't it be cool if there were workable ways to turn
> accurate mapping into a compelling game? :) I know this is not a new idea,
> but PoGo certainly has gotten my interest, since it's been so motivating
> for folks to add to OSM.
>

I had a related theory that's pretty much what Google was using Ingress for
last year.  Lost to the ethers is where I theorized in a group hangout for
the local Ingress community that the POIs entered as portal suggestions was
feeding Google Maps, which hit me the same day or the next day.

https://plus.google.com/+PaulJohnsonTulsa/posts/bFdG66yMZV5
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 11:47 PM, Nicolás Alvarez  wrote:

>
> > El 28 dic 2016, a las 02:34, Nick Hocking 
> escribió:
> >
> > How about we ask the game maker to code in (and let slip in social
> media) that lots of new pokemon stuff may appear on every OSM residential
> road, outside a residence that has a street number (in OSM) equal to todays
> day number (e.g 28 - for today). Of course all the other OSM address tags
> must also be correct for this stuff to appear.
> >
>
> How could the game possibly know if newly-added tags are correct?


 If it's anything like how *Ingress* went...they're probably not too
concerned about that.
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Targeting Pokemon contributors falls into a trap... the assumption that a
> particular activity/group are all inclined to vandalism.


Another trap, too:  Assuming that Niantic and/or Nintendo are using
OpenStreetMap for this game.  And if they are, then they're doing so
without attribution.  Without any attribution and with Niantic no longer
part of Alphabet (Google's parent company), it's not clear where they're
getting their map from.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[moltonel 3x Combo]

For what it's worth, I tested the hypothesis that Go uses OSM by
walking http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/142843552. It's a
highway=footway inside a leisure=park, which I added in OSM years ago
and still isn't in Google, Bing, ESRI, or HERE (they do have the rest
of the town mapped). This town is generally pretty boring to play Go:
no gym, 3 stops very far apart, and rather few spawns. I've been
playing Go regularly for a few months, here and in a much more
Go-friendly town.

While this is only an anecdotal result, there are clearly a lot more
spawns on this walk than in the surrounding area (I regularly get
10-15 spawns on this 700m footway, but only 1-2 covering the same
distance along the primary to get there).

IMHO, the biggest news here is that (a subsidiary of) Google is using
OSM data in a high-profile product. If this is true, this is a very
big "switch2osm" story and it'd be great PR for OSM. I encourage other
OSMers to test suitable areas. If the OSM community (which is IMHO
better suited at asserting this than the Go community) can gain enough
confidence that Go is indeed using OSM data, a friendly and public
request from the OSMF to get OSM credited in Go would be in order.


Concerning the fear that Go players will deteriorate the OSM data to
suit their Go needs, I'm not too worried. Being aware of potential bad
edits is good, but we've dealt with problematic user groups before
(bitcoin shops for example).

Having more OSM contributors is always good, but contributors coming
from the Go community would be particularly so, because it is has
demographic that differ from the OSM average (most notably by being
63% women), and OSM sorely needs more contributor diversity.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[David Kewley]

Yes, true. And wouldn't it be cool if there were workable ways to turn
accurate mapping into a compelling game? :) I know this is not a new idea,
but PoGo certainly has gotten my interest, since it's been so motivating
for folks to add to OSM.

I'd say that between PoGo motivating folks to add to OSM, and us doing the
hard work of doing QA, welcoming, correcting, etc., we are together turning
this into an effective if not yet scalable game. Now to find a way to scale
both the mapping and the QA etc.

David

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Nicolás Alvarez 
wrote:

>
> > El 28 dic 2016, a las 02:34, Nick Hocking 
> escribió:
> >
> > How about we ask the game maker to code in (and let slip in social
> media) that lots of new pokemon stuff may appear on every OSM residential
> road, outside a residence that has a street number (in OSM) equal to todays
> day number (e.g 28 - for today). Of course all the other OSM address tags
> must also be correct for this stuff to appear.
> >
>
> How could the game possibly know if newly-added tags are correct?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Nicolás Alvarez]

> El 28 dic 2016, a las 02:34, Nick Hocking  escribió:
> 
> How about we ask the game maker to code in (and let slip in social media) 
> that lots of new pokemon stuff may appear on every OSM residential road, 
> outside a residence that has a street number (in OSM) equal to todays day 
> number (e.g 28 - for today). Of course all the other OSM address tags must 
> also be correct for this stuff to appear.
> 

How could the game possibly know if newly-added tags are correct?

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Nick Hocking]

How about we ask the game maker to code in (and let slip in social media)
that lots of new pokemon stuff may appear on every OSM residential road,
outside a residence that has a street number (in OSM) equal to todays day
number (e.g 28 - for today). Of course all the other OSM address tags must
also be correct for this stuff to appear.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Warin]

Targeting Pokemon contributors falls into a trap... the assumption that a 
particular activity/group are all inclined to vandalism.

These new contributors could be very usefull ... if 'we' don't tar them all 
with abusive thoughts.


On 28-Dec-16 10:50 AM, Rod Bera wrote:

Hi Andy,

just to make myself understood:

improving the db by adding relevant features and tags is a good thing
for everyone, even though those doing so (literally everyone) do it in
places they chose with tags they're interested in.
To me this is working for the community. This does not degrade the
overall quality and accuracy of the OSM base. Rather the opposite. This
is exactly what OSM is about. The fact that the improvement is local and
thematic is unavoidable.


And here 'we' degrade the nonlocal contributors.



But this is a different story if my edits don't conform to ground truth.
It also has a name when done on purpose: vandalism.

Users who deliberately put incorrect or fictional stuff into OSM are
working for their benefits (catching more Pokemons), and their edits are
detrimental to the community.


Not all vandals work for their 'benefits', some  make changes far from their 
locations - I can see no 'benefit' other than their own amusement.



regards,

Rod


The usual view is - what I do is 'good', and if your not doing the same kind of 
thing it is of lesser value.

Takes while for most to accept that most people do 'good' by what ever means 
they enter data (say 90%) -

a few of the remainder have made a mistake in tagging (say 90% of the 
remainder) -

a few of the remainder have made a mistake in recognition of a feature (say 90% 
of the remainder) -

a few of the remainder have made a mistake in copyright (say 90% of the 
remainder) -

and then you have the deliberate vandals ... less than 99.99% of contributors.



On 27/12/16 11:31, Andy Townsend wrote:

Just to pick up one point from this...


On 26/12/16 11:36, Rod Bera wrote:

Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
minority of users is a threat.
Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.

Sounds like I'm bang to rights there!  Most of what I add to OSM
(footpaths, trees, whether a local pub has a stone floor and a real fire
etc.) could be exactly described as "maximising benefits for a minority
of users".  Worse, the local OSMers all seem to be doing the same thing
- shops, house numbers, a borderline obsession with tunnels, but
everyone has different ideas of what to do, so that somehow a wide range
of things are covered.

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Rod Bera]

Hi Andy,

just to make myself understood:

improving the db by adding relevant features and tags is a good thing
for everyone, even though those doing so (literally everyone) do it in
places they chose with tags they're interested in.
To me this is working for the community. This does not degrade the
overall quality and accuracy of the OSM base. Rather the opposite. This
is exactly what OSM is about. The fact that the improvement is local and
thematic is unavoidable.

But this is a different story if my edits don't conform to ground truth.
It also has a name when done on purpose: vandalism.

Users who deliberately put incorrect or fictional stuff into OSM are
working for their benefits (catching more Pokemons), and their edits are
detrimental to the community.

regards,

Rod

On 27/12/16 11:31, Andy Townsend wrote:
> Just to pick up one point from this...
> 
> 
> On 26/12/16 11:36, Rod Bera wrote:
>> Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
>> minority of users is a threat.
>> Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.
> 
> Sounds like I'm bang to rights there!  Most of what I add to OSM
> (footpaths, trees, whether a local pub has a stone floor and a real fire
> etc.) could be exactly described as "maximising benefits for a minority
> of users".  Worse, the local OSMers all seem to be doing the same thing
> - shops, house numbers, a borderline obsession with tunnels, but
> everyone has different ideas of what to do, so that somehow a wide range
> of things are covered.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
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-- 
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   et SIG pour l'Environnement  /and Environmental GIS
Agrocampus-Ouest|65 r.Saint-Brieuc|CS84215|35042 Rennes cedex|France
+33 (0) 223 48 5553 - roderic.b...@agrocampus-ouest.fr

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Andy Townsend]

Just to pick up one point from this...


On 26/12/16 11:36, Rod Bera wrote:

Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
minority of users is a threat.
Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.


Sounds like I'm bang to rights there!  Most of what I add to OSM 
(footpaths, trees, whether a local pub has a stone floor and a real fire 
etc.) could be exactly described as "maximising benefits for a minority 
of users".  Worse, the local OSMers all seem to be doing the same thing 
- shops, house numbers, a borderline obsession with tunnels, but 
everyone has different ideas of what to do, so that somehow a wide range 
of things are covered.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Marcos Oliveira]

Throwing my two cents,

Recently Portugal has been receiving a lot of new members and the vast
majority of them focus on adding paths and parks around a small area.

There has been an increase of bad mapping happening, see [1], [2], [3], [4]
to name a few.

I blame those Pokemon Go users that suggest you edit OSM to increase spawn
chances. It disregards the community and undermines the map data quality.

[1] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/461465683 (multiple over-layered
ways)
[2] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/461227943 (nonexistent footways
mapped)
[3] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/461228607 (unconnected ways)
[4] - https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/461433845 (a bit of everything
wrong)

2016-12-26 13:19 GMT+00:00 Andy Townsend :

> Well, and apologies if this appears in any way snarky, you appear not to
> have welcomed any Pokemon users, whereas the person that you are
> criticising has (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44637591
> )...
>
> OSM really doesn't need people more people telling other people what they
> should be doing.  What it does need is people actually willing to help.  If
> you'd like to see example changeset discussion comments to use, there are
> plenty more in the US (see http://resultmaps.neis-one.org
> /osm-discussions?c=United%20States ).  My example FWIW (for one that came
> to the DWG as needing reverting) is on https://www.openstreetmap.org/
> changeset/44656368 .
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
> On 26/12/16 12:14, Andy Mabbett wrote:
>
>> On 25 December 2016 at 17:17, Toby Murray  wrote:
>>
>> Beware Pokemon users
>>>
>> You appear to have accidentally typed "Beware Pokemon users", where
>> the correct subject would be "Please Welcome Pokemon users".
>>
>> HTH, and Merry Christmas!
>>
>>
>
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-- 
Um Abraço,
Marcos Oliveira
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Andy Townsend]

Well, and apologies if this appears in any way snarky, you appear not to 
have welcomed any Pokemon users, whereas the person that you are 
criticising has (e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44637591 )...


OSM really doesn't need people more people telling other people what 
they should be doing.  What it does need is people actually willing to 
help.  If you'd like to see example changeset discussion comments to 
use, there are plenty more in the US (see 
http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussions?c=United%20States ).  My 
example FWIW (for one that came to the DWG as needing reverting) is on 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/44656368 .


Cheers,

Andy


On 26/12/16 12:14, Andy Mabbett wrote:

On 25 December 2016 at 17:17, Toby Murray  wrote:


Beware Pokemon users

You appear to have accidentally typed "Beware Pokemon users", where
the correct subject would be "Please Welcome Pokemon users".

HTH, and Merry Christmas!




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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Andy Mabbett]

On 25 December 2016 at 17:17, Toby Murray  wrote:

> Beware Pokemon users

You appear to have accidentally typed "Beware Pokemon users", where
the correct subject would be "Please Welcome Pokemon users".

HTH, and Merry Christmas!

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Rod Bera]

Hi all,

Thank you Toby for you vigilance.
I do share Clifford's concern about OSM being tweaked/vandalised.

Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
minority of users is a threat.
Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the company behind Pokemon is only
acknowledging Google maps as a source. Not OSM. Therefore those new
users should be redirected to Google mapmaker and left to deal with
subsequent legal issues with that company (the "your data is ours but
trouble is yours" disclaimer by Google).

However, this leaves unaddressed another issue, that of OSM data being
uploaded/copied into google maps. I have myself noticed in several
instances that google maps updated following my own edits into OSM,
especially for features that only myself could be aware of.

So I don't know which process holds here:
1. pokemon directly using (and not acknowledging) OSM data,
or
2. pokemon using google data with google themselves using OSM data (and
not acknowledging it, whether it comes from google paid people or people
"freely" contributing the google base).

Up to now, leaving aside the legal breach of either ODbL or cc-by-sa
licenses (or both), it could nevertheless be satisfying for us to
believe we were contributing to improve other databases as a side effect
(OSM people working for the benefit of all, even google. Even though
google has not the correctness to abide by licensing). And believe
(which I do myself) that ours is better. But now what makes the strength
of OSM could be used to destroy it.

The phenomenon is not new however: we have seen "biased" edits into OSM
in the past, with some OSM users modifying or deleting other
contributions for personal reasons (political, religious, etc., or mere
competition over stats), and putting their questionable ones instead.
This can always happen, but the procedures and general ethos within our
community can usually deal with this smoothly.

Now we're potentially facing a problem of a completely different
magnitude. One tweet among pokemon-Goers saying -no matter true or not-
that they can capture more creatures by tweeking OSM, and we might end
up with myriads of local difficult-to-detect edits by many users (mostly
new, but we can't rule out "pokemonised" OSM users...).

For those who doubt it this is quite serious. Over time people have come
to rely onto OSM for a number of activities, amongst which navigation or
humanitarian activities (just to name a few I'm engaged in. Landuse
management and environmental science is another).

If our geographical commons are impacted this can translate into loss of
meaningful data, and beyond: waste of time and efficiency, waste of
money, even lives.

Yes, OSM has become as crucial as this for some people.

I believe this issue should be discussed at OSMF level.
We, as a community should investigate and take action to safeguard our
common good.

Maybe I'm worrying too much, that Pokemon-Goers won't in their vast
majority sign up and overwhelm OSM with "inaccurate" data.

But there is a risk.
I've long been aware of it but was confident our community could
overcome. Now I'm not too sure anymore.

Rod

On 25/12/16 18:46, Clifford Snow wrote:
> I've been seeing a number of new users adding paths and parks. I deleted
> three "parks" in Tacoma Washington just this morning. One was covering a
> residential area, another was a group of trees behind some houses and
> the third was a vacant lot. The area with the trees might have been an
> attempt to add a landcover feature. But they were all done by the same
> user. None of the changeset comments mentioned pokemon. 
> 
> One user did reply to my welcome message. I had asked him if he was
> mapping as part of a school project. He replied "No, a game I play uses
> path information to generate its data, so I'm uploading my common walk
> paths, getting familiar with OSM and its toolset. Me adding those paths
> is just filling in gaps in that data that others may find useful. Thank
> you for the welcome email! Happy holidays!" His edits were good for a
> new user.
> 
> Since Dec 17th over 20 new people have started mapping in Washington
> State. A good number of them have been adding footways and paths.
> Unfortunately I haven't been keeping records on how many corrections
> I've had to make. 
> 
> There is some good coming from Pokemon, however I worry about the
> increase in vandalism. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Toby Murray  > wrote:
> 
> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that
> claims to show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from
> OSM to determine good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also
> several threads on reddit under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar
> claims. It is amusing to see their speculation and methods of
> testing their "evidence" 

Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Clifford Snow]

I've been seeing a number of new users adding paths and parks. I deleted
three "parks" in Tacoma Washington just this morning. One was covering a
residential area, another was a group of trees behind some houses and the
third was a vacant lot. The area with the trees might have been an attempt
to add a landcover feature. But they were all done by the same user. None
of the changeset comments mentioned pokemon.

One user did reply to my welcome message. I had asked him if he was mapping
as part of a school project. He replied "No, a game I play uses path
information to generate its data, so I'm uploading my common walk paths,
getting familiar with OSM and its toolset. Me adding those paths is just
filling in gaps in that data that others may find useful. Thank you for the
welcome email! Happy holidays!" His edits were good for a new user.

Since Dec 17th over 20 new people have started mapping in Washington State.
A good number of them have been adding footways and paths. Unfortunately I
haven't been keeping records on how many corrections I've had to make.

There is some good coming from Pokemon, however I worry about the increase
in vandalism.



On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Toby Murray  wrote:

> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
> show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
> good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
> under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
> speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
> footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
> later so see if it affected anything.
>
> Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
> lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly
> located inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play
> ground, etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game
> mechanics by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house.
> While that is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to
> retagging paths, cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.
>
> I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon"
> in the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
> worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
> would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
> you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
> probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
> bad.
>
> Some places where these discussions are happening:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/
> how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/
> osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/
> osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/
> new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/
>
> I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.
>
> Toby
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Clifford Snow]

I've been seeing a number of new users adding paths and parks. I deleted
three "parks" in Tacoma Washington just this morning. One was covering a
residential area, another was a group of trees behind some houses and the
third was a vacant lot. The area with the trees might have been an attempt
to add a landcover feature. But they were all done by the same user. None
of the changeset comments mentioned pokemon.

One user did reply to my welcome message. I had asked him if he was mapping
as part of a school project. He replied "No, a game I play uses path
information to generate its data, so I'm uploading my common walk paths,
getting familiar with OSM and its toolset. Me adding those paths is just
filling in gaps in that data that others may find useful. Thank you for the
welcome email! Happy holidays!" His edits were good for a new user.

Since Dec 17th over 20 new people have started mapping in Washington State.
A good number of them have been adding footways and paths. Unfortunately I
haven't been keeping records on how many corrections I've had to make.

There is some good coming from Pokemon, however I worry about the increase
in vandalism.



On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Toby Murray  wrote:

> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
> show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
> good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
> under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
> speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
> footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
> later so see if it affected anything.
>
> Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
> lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly
> located inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play
> ground, etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game
> mechanics by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house.
> While that is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to
> retagging paths, cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.
>
> I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon"
> in the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
> worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
> would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
> you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
> probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
> bad.
>
> Some places where these discussions are happening:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/
> how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/
> osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/
> osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/
> new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/
>
> I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.
>
> Toby
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Grant Slater]

Someone should mentioned to the Pokémon players that if they correctly
fix up TIGER data & other imports the spawn rate is significantly
higher, not to mention the amazing effects of adding genuine
buildings, shops, addresses and other amenities. Based on my
unauthoritative unqualified zero sample based research!

/ Grant


On 25 December 2016 at 17:17, Toby Murray  wrote:
> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
> show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
> good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
> under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
> speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
> footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
> later so see if it affected anything.
>
> Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
> lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly located
> inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play ground,
> etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game mechanics
> by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house. While that
> is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to retagging paths,
> cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.
>
> I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
> the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
> worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
> would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
> you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
> probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
> bad.
>
> Some places where these discussions are happening:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/
>
> I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.
>
> Toby
>
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[OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Toby Murray]

There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that claims to
show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from OSM to determine
good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also several threads on reddit
under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar claims. It is amusing to see their
speculation and methods of testing their "evidence" which include adding a
footway to OSM and then going out and playing Pokemon Go a couple hours
later so see if it affected anything.

Anyway, the theory being proposed is that highway=footway features in OSM
lead to increased Pokemon spawn activity. Also, nests are supposedly
located inside of recreation type landuse areas (golf course, park, play
ground, etc) This has led to some players attempting to influence the game
mechanics by, for example, adding a bunch of footways around their house.
While that is a relatively benign change, some others have taken to
retagging paths, cycleways and even residential roads to highway=footway.

I have been watching any changesets that come in with the word "pokemon" in
the changeset comments and have reverted a bunch of them. However I am
worried about users who may not be using changeset comments so I thought I
would at least let the wider community know that this is happening and if
you see any odd reclassification of features to highway=footway, this is
probably why. I have also seen some legit and useful edits so it isn't all
bad.

Some places where these discussions are happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiJ000T8GbE
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jfnrm/how_to_find_the_new_rural_spawn_points/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/50ni6g/osm_data_spawn_points_relation_confirmed/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/54sy36/osm_query_to_identify_possible_nests/
https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/5jw4ep/new_spawn_points_in_my_area_align_with_osm/

I would call their evidence circumstantial at best.

Toby
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