Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2011/1/11 Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com: 2011/1/10 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I used hamlet for my block as pop limit of 1000 is given = satisfied The problem here is that population is only part of the definition of a hamlet. Less than 1000 people is correct, but it also has an implied and is surrounded by open land/farms etc. You can't have a whole bunch of adjacent hamlets sharing borders, they are not hamlets. +1 the wiki is not very good when defining hamlets (and other places) IMHO. Although we don't seem to have real problems with that, as localized versions of the site give different numbers (e.g. hamlet below 200 in Germany). The main classification for place as it is handled in the real world (and also the real OSM world) takes into account different aspects. The number of inhabitants is only a rough estimate. E.g. a town is a town when it is a town ;-). This is tagged mainly on a functional and historical (a town in Germany or Italy is a town by definition, not dependent on the population, I guess this is the same in most of the world) basis and has to take into account the surrounding as well. Besides a big city a village can be more then 1 inhabitants, and small towns can have less then 2000 (in exceptional cases). A hamlet is different from a village not only because it is smaller, it also functionally doesn't offer community services (church, shop, place to gather etc.). The houses are typically not arranged in a closed way but rather scattered (again, this depends very much on the cultural/settlement traditions and cannot be generalized, of course there are also villages with scattered houses). But a hamlet is not a block or sector of a bigger settlement. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
A common settlement pattern in the USA, in rural communities that have mostly or entirely developed since the invention of the automobile, is to have houses and small businesses strung out along a highway. You end up with a community that can be several miles long, and yet only a hundred feet or so wide. If the community was started prior to the automobile, it may have a small portion laid out as a grid or loose mesh of streets, with the oldest structures there. The linear portions are where a farmer sold the land immediately adjacent to the highway, for house construction, but continued to farm on the rest of his land. The non-farmers are likely to commute to jobs in another, larger community nearby. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim From :mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com Date :Tue Jan 11 11:31:35 America/Chicago 2011 2011/1/11 Stephen Hope slh...@gmail.com: 2011/1/10 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I used hamlet for my block as pop limit of 1000 is given = satisfied The problem here is that population is only part of the definition of a hamlet. Less than 1000 people is correct, but it also has an implied and is surrounded by open land/farms etc. You can't have a whole bunch of adjacent hamlets sharing borders, they are not hamlets. +1 the wiki is not very good when defining hamlets (and other places) IMHO. Although we don't seem to have real problems with that, as localized versions of the site give different numbers (e.g. hamlet below 200 in Germany). The main classification for place as it is handled in the real world (and also the real OSM world) takes into account different aspects. The number of inhabitants is only a rough estimate. E.g. a town is a town when it is a town ;-). This is tagged mainly on a functional and historical (a town in Germany or Italy is a town by definition, not dependent on the population, I guess this is the same in most of the world) basis and has to take into account the surrounding as well. Besides a big city a village can be more then 1 inhabitants, and small towns can have less then 2000 (in exceptional cases). A hamlet is different from a village not only because it is smaller, it also functionally doesn't offer community services (church, shop, place to gather etc.). The houses are typically not arranged in a closed way but rather scattered (again, this depends very much on the cultural/settlement traditions and cannot be generalized, of course there are also villages with scattered houses). But a hamlet is not a block or sector of a bigger settlement. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
On 10 January 2011 00:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.comwrote: 2011/1/9 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 1) We don't have names for living streets are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean residential streets? 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) locality should be used for uninhabited places locality is the way i could properly render blocks and sectors right now in OSM india. please suggest if there is a better/proper way achieving the same render result. z12: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.408lon=77.0776zoom=12layers=M - you can spot sectors (govt sold residential area) as well as private societies (private sold resi are). z14: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.4141lon=77.0564zoom=14layers=M now, you can see blocks to sectors too like block A,B,C or Phase 1,2 or Part 1 or Part 2 which are within the same sector. (but there are no known naming rules so there are always exceptions) Only sometimes, street names are only connecting sectors. but never are there street names within a sector. sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
It sounds like the current set of tags and structures in OSM don't properly support what you're trying to do at the moment. I think the best way to deal with it would to propose some new tags so that these type of addressing schemes can be properly supported in OSM with supporting documentation. It sounds like you need some sort of block or sector tag you could set on areas to define them properly. A couple of other tags for addressing like addr:block and addr:sector could then be added. It would definitely take some time before they get supported by the renderers and routers but I think that since a good sized chunk of the world uses these types of addressing systems we should have an explicit way to deal with them instead of trying to shoehorn them into a more European system. It will make it easier for mappers there to do things properly and probably also make things work more reliably. I don't have the experience with this type addressing to feel comfortable doing any of that but if you put something up on the wiki people can use and work on it. Cheers, Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
Neither block or sector are OSM places. I have used halmet/locality and suburb. by these, rendering is proper if using the existing system could i propose addr:hamlet or addr:suburb support? Also, rendering probably is fine. Its just how gazetteer/nominatim search algo that would require supporting alternate tags. Thanks, Vikas On 10 January 2011 15:34, Gregory Arenius greg...@arenius.com wrote: It sounds like the current set of tags and structures in OSM don't properly support what you're trying to do at the moment. I think the best way to deal with it would to propose some new tags so that these type of addressing schemes can be properly supported in OSM with supporting documentation. It sounds like you need some sort of block or sector tag you could set on areas to define them properly. A couple of other tags for addressing like addr:block and addr:sector could then be added. It would definitely take some time before they get supported by the renderers and routers but I think that since a good sized chunk of the world uses these types of addressing systems we should have an explicit way to deal with them instead of trying to shoehorn them into a more European system. It will make it easier for mappers there to do things properly and probably also make things work more reliably. I don't have the experience with this type addressing to feel comfortable doing any of that but if you put something up on the wiki people can use and work on it. Cheers, Greg ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 04:04:51PM +0530, ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) wrote: Neither block or sector are OSM places. I have used halmet/locality and suburb. by these, rendering is proper if using the existing system could i propose addr:hamlet or addr:suburb support? And why not is_in:*, including recursive is_in:* (something has is_in:suburb=something, something suburb has is_in:city=something_else, etc), probably used together with addr:*? I know, that administrative boundaries would often be better, but those are often not available. Greets, Jacek ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2011/1/10 Vikas Yadav vi...@thevikas.com: On 10 January 2011 00:45, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/9 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) locality should be used for uninhabited places locality is the way i could properly render blocks and sectors right now in OSM india. please suggest if there is a better/proper way achieving the same render result. This is what we call tagging for the renderers = abusing a tag in a way it is not describing what it is defined for, just because this renders a nice picture. If you need another place-tag, that is not documented here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Place (e.g. place=block / sector or whatever), you invent it. You can use all tags you like, but it is recommended for features of which you think that they are valuable for other users as well, to document them in the wiki (and maybe send a note to the mailing lists). Usually you would make a proposal. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) OK - this sounds like a combination of bad tagging and software problems with nominatim and the mapnik style sheet. Can I suggest that locality and hamlet are probably not the correct tags and that you need to come up with a consistent way to tag these types of features. Once there is a valid tagging scheme support can be added to nominatim. The suggestion of place=block or place=sector and addr:block, addr:sector sound like a good direction to go. So 1) they need to be documented on the wiki 2) discussed to look for any problems - for instance do they work in other countries with similar problems? 3) a sample area needs to be tagged 4) software tools need to be extended to support the new tags. This can potentially be done quite quickly - and using tags which do not overlap with existing tags makes this a LOT simpler! -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
I used hamlet for my block as pop limit of 1000 is given = satisfied I used suburb for it is neither a village or a town but holds 2 ~ 10 blocks = suggest We do have villages within cities and they have been tagged properly, villages never have sub areas or blocks. Therefore, sectors are not villages. On 10 January 2011 16:35, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.ukwrote: 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) OK - this sounds like a combination of bad tagging and software problems with nominatim and the mapnik style sheet. Can I suggest that locality and hamlet are probably not the correct tags and that you need to come up with a consistent way to tag these types of features. Once there is a valid tagging scheme support can be added to nominatim. The suggestion of place=block or place=sector and addr:block, addr:sector sound like a good direction to go. So 1) they need to be documented on the wiki 2) discussed to look for any problems - for instance do they work in other countries with similar problems? 3) a sample area needs to be tagged 4) software tools need to be extended to support the new tags. This can potentially be done quite quickly - and using tags which do not overlap with existing tags makes this a LOT simpler! -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
Vikas Yadav vi...@thevikas.com wrote: locality is the way i could properly render blocks and sectors right now in OSM india. please suggest if there is a better/proper way achieving the same render result. z12: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.408lon=77.0776zoom=12layers=M - you can spot sectors (govt sold residential area) as well as private societies (private sold resi are). z14: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.4141lon=77.0564zoom=14layers=M now, you can see blocks to sectors too like block A,B,C or Phase 1,2 or Part 1 or Part 2 which are within the same sector. (but there are no known naming rules so there are always exceptions) Only sometimes, street names are only connecting sectors. but never are there street names within a sector. I've nor followed the whole discussion but perhaps can you test using boundary relation. You can define area with name and nominatim use them. relation type=boundary boundary=administrative admin_level= ? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Admin_level it seems 6 for blocks but the situation in India seems a bit tricky : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_India -- Pierre-Alain Dorange OSM experiences : http://www.leretourdelautruche.com/map/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2011/1/10 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I used hamlet for my block as pop limit of 1000 is given = satisfied I used suburb for it is neither a village or a town but holds 2 ~ 10 blocks = suggest We do have villages within cities and they have been tagged properly, villages never have sub areas or blocks. Therefore, sectors are not villages. You seem to be determined to force the existing tagging scheme onto a situation for which is was not designed. It as far better to use new and appropriate tags that reflect the actual situation - software support should follow fairly rapidly if you come up with a suitable tagging scheme. Using hamlets, villages and incorrectly named roads to try to hack the various software will not work and is very unlikely to be supported by any of the software. Pierre-Alain Dorange's suggestion to use admin_level and some type of boundary is another reasonable way to approach the problem - although I would suggest that your probably want to create something like admin_level=11 or maybe even 12. 6 Is definitely too low. You may also be able to find inspiration in the tagging of Japan - my understanding is that they have a similar approach and may already have created a suitable scheme. -- Brian ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2011/1/10 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I used hamlet for my block as pop limit of 1000 is given = satisfied The problem here is that population is only part of the definition of a hamlet. Less than 1000 people is correct, but it also has an implied and is surrounded by open land/farms etc. You can't have a whole bunch of adjacent hamlets sharing borders, they are not hamlets. Stephen ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
Hi, I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 1) We don't have names for living streets 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) Just to get the parser work accurately I had to name closeby living_street street as Sector 46 or Block B - which when rendered would look very strange cause that should only be name of the area and not the name of street. But that is the only way I could successfully parse address such as 19, Block A1, South City II, Gurgoan or 1532, Sector 46, Gurgoan which are exact postal address. So is there a way that I can tie a addr: to a hamlet/locality instead of street? (I installed Nominatim myself to be able to hit-and-try and learn the exact way, therefore these example addresses won't work on live on current data.) Please suggest, Vikas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2011/1/9 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 1) We don't have names for living streets are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean residential streets? 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) locality should be used for uninhabited places sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 20:15:46 +0100 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/9 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 1) We don't have names for living streets are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean residential streets? 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) locality should be used for uninhabited places sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem. cheers, Martin Martin's reply highlights a problem with the eurocentric version of a place hierarchy in OSM - it doesn't fit India. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
2011/1/10 Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net On Sun, 9 Jan 2011 20:15:46 +0100 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/1/9 ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com: I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 1) We don't have names for living streets are you sure you are talking about living streets or do you mean residential streets? 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) locality should be used for uninhabited places sorry, that I cannot help you with your original problem. cheers, Martin Martin's reply highlights a problem with the eurocentric version of a place hierarchy in OSM - it doesn't fit India. Not only India, also other countries such as Japan have a block address system, which for example doesn't match with how openaddresses collects data at the moment. Here some good explanation: http://sivers.org/jadr Such a block address system actually has some advantages as well. You don't have to know the house number to be able to know about where the address is located. You can take the center point of the block polygon as well and it will usually be a good approach. With long streets this is usually not possible. Daniel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Georepublic UG Georepublic Japan eMail: daniel.ka...@georepublic.de Web: http://georepublic.de ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-ja] Fwd: [OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim
三浦です。 インドのVikasさんが、こんな投稿をしています。 日本と共通の課題ではないですか？ Original Message Subject:[OSM-talk] address parsing by nominatim Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 17:44:46 +0530 From: ヴィカス ヤダヴァ (vikas yadav) mevi...@gmail.com Reply-To: vi...@thevikas.com To: osm-talk t...@openstreetmap.org Hi, I surveying from Northern India. I studied how addresses are to be tagged in order so nominatim can locate it. That went great. The problem is the every house has to be tied to a street (addr:street). 1) We don't have names for living streets 2) We so many times have blocks or sectors (tagged as locality or hamlet) Just to get the parser work accurately I had to name closeby living_street street as Sector 46 or Block B - which when rendered would look very strange cause that should only be name of the area and not the name of street. But that is the only way I could successfully parse address such as 19, Block A1, South City II, Gurgoan or 1532, Sector 46, Gurgoan which are exact postal address. So is there a way that I can tie a addr: to a hamlet/locality instead of street? (I installed Nominatim myself to be able to hit-and-try and learn the exact way, therefore these example addresses won't work on live on current data.) Please suggest, Vikas -- Ovi Mail: Making email access easy http://mail.ovi.com ___ Talk-ja mailing list Talk-ja@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ja
