Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
2009/9/20 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: Yeah...I think at this stage, it's useful to input as much detail as possible +1. I agree, though it might be better for some stuff to be put in a separate (more appropriate) db (openyellowpages or something like this, where you (or even the person running the restaurant/shop/company) can put their whole menu, special offers, opening hours, happy hours, complete contacting information and maybe even the possibility to reserve a table), cinema-programm, goods available, etc. even if you have to make up tags along the way, provided their meaning is explicit and self-explanatory. They must be self-explanatory to facilitate a possible future move to a more coordinated scheme, to get that last 5% of value without having to re-survey (highway=footway/cycleway/path should serve as a warning against non-explicit tag names!). which part of footway or cycleway is not self-explanatory? Or landuse=forest? Without definition any tag will remain as ambivalent as language can be (and even more as most mappers are non-native English speakers). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
Frederik Ramm wrote: Hi, Roy Wallace wrote: Regarding search - ideally, I think the user should be able to say that they want to eat a t-bone steak in mood lighting for under $20 less than 30min drive away Whoa, that would be the killer app! Go out for cheap drinks with some friends, meet a nice person of the matching sex in your age bracket who happens to have a soft spot for geeks with GPSes and is looking for the same kind of relationship that you are after... Just needs a foolproof user interface ;-) Bye Frederik Can we have it with opposite sex instead / as well please ;) Mark ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
shop=vacant; empty stores should be marked vacant, not removed from map. I think this is fine. shop=foo disused=yes doesn't work because often the idenity of a shop is removed as the landlord gets ready to re-lease, and it's just an empty room. shop=supplements; specialty food and dietary supplements. I thinh you mean 'dietary supplements, herbal remedies, and the kinds of food that are culturarlly associated with the crowd that buys supplements' :-)A shop that sells mostly fine cheeses wouldn't fit. shop=cash; non-bank cheque cashing or short term payday loans name is awkward, but valid point. shop=beauty; personal beauty services, tanning, nails, spa, etc. sounds good. 'solarium' appears to be British, and I think beauty is more likely to be readily apparent to those for whom English is a second language. shop=tobacco; specialty shop selling cigars, cigarettes, pipe tobacco, and accessories There's a far larger issue, which I noticed on Garmin's proprietary map data. When searching for A, how does one map the desire A to the category scheme, and then enter it, and get the right answer? For restaurants, is it American or Steak/Grill? Where's the boundary? For shops, many can be put into neatly divided categories, but near me for example there is a fish store that sells meat and beer/wine. Really it's of type shop and has a multivalued attribute for what it sells. That said, having a map where all stores are on it and mappers pick the best and we get on with things gets us 95% of the value - but I wanted to mention the semantics problem. pgpU5D0Lzr1MJ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 10:27 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: There's a far larger issue, which I noticed on Garmin's proprietary map data. When searching for A, how does one map the desire A to the category scheme, and then enter it, and get the right answer? For restaurants, is it American or Steak/Grill? Where's the boundary? For shops, many can be put into neatly divided categories, but near me for example there is a fish store that sells meat and beer/wine. Really it's of type shop and has a multivalued attribute for what it sells. How about shop=butcher;alcohol ? Additional info (the fact it sells fish, beer/wine specifically) should be put in additional tags. Regarding search - ideally, I think the user should be able to say that they want to eat a t-bone steak in mood lighting for under $20 less than 30min drive away, and any suitable restaurant would be returned - regardless of whether it be classified overall as e.g. American or Steak/Grill. That said, having a map where all stores are on it and mappers pick the best and we get on with things gets us 95% of the value - but I wanted to mention the semantics problem. Yeah...I think at this stage, it's useful to input as much detail as possible, even if you have to make up tags along the way, provided their meaning is explicit and self-explanatory. They must be self-explanatory to facilitate a possible future move to a more coordinated scheme, to get that last 5% of value without having to re-survey (highway=footway/cycleway/path should serve as a warning against non-explicit tag names!). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
Hi, Roy Wallace wrote: Regarding search - ideally, I think the user should be able to say that they want to eat a t-bone steak in mood lighting for under $20 less than 30min drive away Whoa, that would be the killer app! Go out for cheap drinks with some friends, meet a nice person of the matching sex in your age bracket who happens to have a soft spot for geeks with GPSes and is looking for the same kind of relationship that you are after... Just needs a foolproof user interface ;-) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
shop=vacant; empty stores should be marked vacant, not removed from map. I usually use shop=[what it was before] disused=yes shop=supplements; specialty food and dietary supplements. shop=cash; non-bank cheque cashing or short term payday loans shop=beauty; personal beauty services, tanning, nails, spa, etc. How about shop=solarium? shop=tobacco; specialty shop selling cigars, cigarettes, pipe tobacco, and accessories Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
I personally think new shop values should come from tagwatch, not from proposals. I.e. to steer the crowd towards the tag already used by the majority where necessary. IMHO proposals can be useful for introducing new tagging schemes (for a way to tag vacant properties, maybe), but not for something as simple as different kinds of shops. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
2009/9/11 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: I personally think new shop values should come from tagwatch, not from proposals. I.e. to steer the crowd towards the tag already used by the majority where necessary. IMHO proposals can be useful for introducing new tagging schemes (for a way to tag vacant properties, maybe), but not for something as simple as different kinds of shops. What harm could come from defining them? For example, I second them all (I need lot of beauty and cash shops in regions I'm maping). Yes, there propably someone somehwere in OSM would tag them differently, but these tags sound general enough to fit anyone's needs and there could be additional tags if needed some additional information. More and more I read list and wiki, more I convinced that: a) it is more or less proven that 'tag it and they will come' could work when there is isolated count of volunteers. With increase of them and huge increase of amount of data standartisation should be done ahead as much as possible. You b) Yes, we need another list and sort of team which stears and streamlines our tagging. I think most of us don't care if it is mega official or not. Just clear sane guidelines and tagging practice; Cheers, Peter. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
Roy Wallace wrote: I personally think new shop values should come from tagwatch, not from proposals. I.e. to steer the crowd towards the tag already used by the majority where necessary. +1 IMHO proposals can be useful for introducing new tagging schemes (for a way to tag vacant properties, maybe), but not for something as simple as different kinds of shops. The discussion around proposals is great when it improves a tagging scheme. The actual voting system is worthless. A handful of people (I used to be one) say yes or no, while many (most) of the experienced OSMers either ignore the process or just don't see the proposal or don't care. The majorities required are ludicrous given we have so many contributors now. People can vote to deprecate things, when in practice deprecation will never happen through voting, tags will slowly fade away because a better scheme takes over. Use a few new shop tags as you want, if they get widely used then add them to the shop=* list. To the people who will doubtless scream at me for perpetuating a disorganized, jumble of tags that overlap and even contradict each other I say simply that this is the thriving openstreetmap, with free format tagging at its heart, not a proscriptive, unused project that fizzles out. Cheers, Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009, Chris Hill wrote: The actual voting system is worthless. A handful of people (I used to be one) say yes or no, while many (most) of the experienced OSMers either ignore the process or just don't see the proposal or don't care. One of the problems here is that the rss feed for the wiki was closed because of the server load. While on enquiry I received a polite mail explaining that there were some other feeds which would allow me to get wiki updates, I'm a rss_person and not going to use other systems - enough stuff arrives via email and a few rss feeds to keep me busy for some time every evening. So its not that I'm disinterested in the wiki, I haven't got time to follow every part through an undifferentiated feed and so just ignore wiki votes. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 7:12 PM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: What harm could come from defining them? Oh, I have nothing against proposing new shop values. I just think that method might not result in the best outcome. The way I see it, tagwatch is the ultimate vote counter for simple things like shop values. I.e. after a while, count the number of shop=tobacco, versus the number of shop=smoking. Then steer the newbies (via the wiki guidelines) towards whatever's used by the majority. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: So its not that I'm disinterested in the wiki, I haven't got time to follow every part through an undifferentiated feed and so just ignore wiki votes. The calls for voting sent via the list work for me... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
Hi All, I've added proposals for five types of shops I'm finding that are not categorized. Your comments and improvements are welcome. shop=vacant; empty stores should be marked vacant, not removed from map. shop=supplements; specialty food and dietary supplements. shop=cash; non-bank cheque cashing or short term payday loans shop=beauty; personal beauty services, tanning, nails, spa, etc. shop=tobacco; specialty shop selling cigars, cigarettes, pipe tobacco, and accessories http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/supplements http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/vacant http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tobacco http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/beauty http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/cash ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
2009/9/10 Richard Weait rich...@weait.com Hi All, I've added proposals for five types of shops I'm finding that are not categorized. Your comments and improvements are welcome. Nice ideas. The only one I'd question is shop=vacant, as 'vacant' is neither a type of shop (as in bakery, butcher) nor a type of good sold in a shop (as in books, shoes). Something like landuse=retail; unoccupied=yes might be better. That said, I can't see shop=vacant being particularly ambiguous (unless there are shops selling vacants that I don't know about). On a more general point, I don't particularly see the need to go through the whole formal proposal process rigmarole for every new type of shop. Call me reckless, but I'd just go ahead and add the tag, and then document it either on the Key:shop page, or on a new Tag:shop=whatever page. Frankie P.S I've tagged Scientology centres with shop=religion :-) -- Frankie Roberto Experience Designer, Rattle 0114 2706977 http://www.rattlecentral.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] new proposals for k:shop
2009/9/11 Frankie Roberto fran...@frankieroberto.com: P.S I've tagged Scientology centres with shop=religion :-) Someone tagged the MS head office in Sydney as a religion too, but it's since been deleted. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/345461052 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
