Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
Hi, by looking at the point with wrong street name, I can tell you that the last contibutor is (now) one of the most experienced contributors in France. I'm not sure where the error come from, but I would say it was one error among other good changes ;) I will send him an email about this error ... Sylvain 2015-01-27 12:48 GMT+01:00 Dmitry Kiselev : > > > ...and leave that editor free to make the same mistake again and again. > They probably didn't realise they'd made a mistake, and a friendly note > from you might stop the problem occurring again. > > Also, while they're correcting the mistake they've made, they may also > spot places in the same area where the map needs updating. As a remote > mapper, you're not going to be able to do this. > > That's why using QA tools is fine, but just blindly "fixing" errors > without communicating with local mappers doesn't produce the best > outcome for OSM overall. > > I do understand the urge to "fix" inconsistencies in the data like this, > but until every single geographic feature on the face of the Earth is > represented in OSM somehow, it shouldn't be our highest priority. > > J. > > > Seems to much extroversive for me. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
>...and leave that editor free to make the same mistake again and again. >They probably didn't realise they'd made a mistake, and a friendly note >from you might stop the problem occurring again. > >Also, while they're correcting the mistake they've made, they may also >spot places in the same area where the map needs updating. As a remote >mapper, you're not going to be able to do this. > >That's why using QA tools is fine, but just blindly "fixing" errors >without communicating with local mappers doesn't produce the best >outcome for OSM overall. > >I do understand the urge to "fix" inconsistencies in the data like this, >but until every single geographic feature on the face of the Earth is >represented in OSM somehow, it shouldn't be our highest priority. > >J. Seems to much extroversive for me. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
On 27/01/2015 10:24, Dmitry Kiselev wrote: > >> Have you asked cquest, the editor who created it? They're the best >> person to answer this question. > > I have a validator or at least addr:interpolation parser, so I have a > lots of examples like this > made by different editors. > > So, if it's not an local trait, it's much more easy for me to just fix them. ...and leave that editor free to make the same mistake again and again. They probably didn't realise they'd made a mistake, and a friendly note from you might stop the problem occurring again. Also, while they're correcting the mistake they've made, they may also spot places in the same area where the map needs updating. As a remote mapper, you're not going to be able to do this. That's why using QA tools is fine, but just blindly "fixing" errors without communicating with local mappers doesn't produce the best outcome for OSM overall. I do understand the urge to "fix" inconsistencies in the data like this, but until every single geographic feature on the face of the Earth is represented in OSM somehow, it shouldn't be our highest priority. J. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
> Have you asked cquest, the editor who created it? They're the best > person to answer this question. I have a validator or at least addr:interpolation parser, so I have a lots of examples like this made by different editors. So, if it's not an local trait, it's much more easy for me to just fix them. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
On 27/01/2015 06:05, Dmitry Kiselev wrote: Hi everyone. There is a strange addr:interpolation way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/104241240 Is it a mistake or examples like this may be interpreted in some usable way? Have you asked cquest, the editor who created it? They're the best person to answer this question. J. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
On 2015-01-27 07:05, Dmitry Kiselev wrote: Hi everyone. There is a strange addr:interpolation way: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/104241240 [1] First point http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1202921548 [2] and last http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1202921219 [3] have different addr:street tag values: Boulevard Saint Dizier and Avenue de la République Is it a mistake or examples like this may be interpreted in some usable way? I would think the addition of addr:street in the last node was a simple error and should be Avenue de la République instead. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses interpolation
On 1/26/2015 10:05 PM, Dmitry Kiselev wrote: Is it a mistake or examples like this may be interpreted in some usable way? I would say there's no sensible interpretation of an interpolation way with different nodes with different addr:street values. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
No one does imports without audit of random samples. We do it as well. The percentage of errors checked in tested area corresponds to the average content errors created by OpenStreetMap mappers. Of course, this must be checked each time, if we import data. We should never believe in the quality of whole geodatabase, if we check only the part. Best regards, Marek Dnia 3 listopada 2014 4:38 Russ Nelson napisał(a): > Paweł Marynowski writes:> > When you make import, people are starting make > notes about> > imprecise data.> > I would note that, for decades, the best > way to get correct> information on the Internet has been to post incorrect > information. I> don't think that has changed, so yeah, let's import data even > if its> quality is not 100%.> > -- > --my blog is at > http://blog.russnelson.com> Crynwr supports open source software> 521 > Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815> Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog > > > ___> talk mailing list> > talk@openstreetmap.org> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk> ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
Paweł Marynowski writes: > When you make import, people are starting make notes about > imprecise data. I would note that, for decades, the best way to get correct information on the Internet has been to post incorrect information. I don't think that has changed, so yeah, let's import data even if its quality is not 100%. -- --my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com Crynwr supports open source software 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815 Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
2014-10-24 14:14 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis : > I totally agree with you, But, I have the impression that people that do > the imports don't do them to create a community. they do it to have the > data in OSM. > Don't you think that more data = more people eager to add notes about what's missing? Eg. nearly noone wants to add bunch of notes about missing addresses. When you make import, people are starting make notes about imprecise data. At least that's my observation regarding data in Poland. -- *Paweł Marynowski* user:Yarl Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska http://osm.org.pl/ http://fb.com/osmpolska/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
> > Pawel Paprota's reaction is along the same lines for me: "we could not > have accomplished this amount of data without an import." Again no > focus on the community or how the extra data is going to attract new > mappers. > > This is a different OSM than I have in mind. What strikes me in just about every discussion on OSM mailing lists is that people frequently seem to think about stuff in black or white terms. Granted, my reply to Frederik can also be defined as such but he is running for the board so I guess different rules apply when trying to scrutinize his views. The two global approches to OSM (the "OSM as a technical/data project" and the "OSM as community/local mapping") will *not*, should *not* and even can *not* (as in - it's impossible) be mutually exclusive. However, I do think there should be room given for each approach to develop and certainly for me this is a critical to anyone who aspires to "lead" OSM from the OSMF side. In my opinion the most productive outcome would be to have people on the board who understand the value of both approaches and do not apply their own philosophy to the topic - it is the community who should decide how OSM grows and board members should be servants to the community in this respect. Paweł ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:05 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > We'd still need to survey in order to do the maintenance work and correct > errors. That's the main reason why imports are often seen as problematic: > they will not create a comunity, rather there are indications that the > growth of the comunity will slow down when everything looks "completed", > and then you'll have the same errors in our db than all the other people > that have imported from the official source, and no-one near to fix them or > feeling "responsible" for it. If the amount of errors is significant, more > data will actively draw people away (fixing bugs is less appealing to many > mappers than setting the first foot steps on white map canvas). > I disagree that import do not create community. We build a strong community around an import, and address import. That community continues to grow. We even discovered that having an address node makes it easier to new mappers to add POI information to the node and to nudge it to the entrance. It is correct that imports can create more "maintenance" work. But then it gives us motivation to add encourage more mappers. If users of our data want addresses, demanding it isn't going to make it happen. If they want specific features, we give them ways to help us achieve those goal. Such as help fund OSM, help us grow the community, fund the development of betters tools, help us get our story out. etc. We shouldn't be afraid, we should embrace these requests. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
> > ? We'd still need to survey in order to do the maintenance work and > correct errors. That's the main reason why imports are often seen as > problematic: they will not create a comunity, rather there are indications > that the growth of the comunity will slow down when everything looks > "completed", and then you'll have the same errors in our db than all the > other people that have imported from the official source, and no-one near > to fix them or feeling "responsible" for it. If the amount of errors is > significant, more data will actively draw people away (fixing bugs is less > appealing to many mappers than setting the first foot steps on white map > canvas). > > I totally agree with you, But, I have the impression that people that do the imports don't do them to create a community. they do it to have the data in OSM. I've read things like "we don't need to do updates, we can wait until the imported source is updated, they have thousands of paid people to update the data". Pawel Paprota's reaction is along the same lines for me: "we could not have accomplished this amount of data without an import." Again no focus on the community or how the extra data is going to attract new mappers. This is a different OSM than I have in mind. regards m ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
2014-10-24 13:17 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis : > For me it is not unthinkable that once a company starts using OSM data for > a commercial offering, they might start demanding to add that data. > indeed, could happen from time to time ;-) > Of course they cannot demand anything from the community, but they can > import the data, or some people might feel a need to import data, or... > But for me, allowing (address) imports is already a form of obeying > that marketing demand. > if you have address information in a suitable license to import it into OSM, you can do this. All that is required is that you check the data regarding its quality (accuracy, currentness etc.), document your plan, explain how you will merge existing data and discuss this with the local comunity and the "experts" on the import list. > Then OSM is no longer about people surveying and drawing from aerial > images. > ? We'd still need to survey in order to do the maintenance work and correct errors. That's the main reason why imports are often seen as problematic: they will not create a comunity, rather there are indications that the growth of the comunity will slow down when everything looks "completed", and then you'll have the same errors in our db than all the other people that have imported from the official source, and no-one near to fix them or feeling "responsible" for it. If the amount of errors is significant, more data will actively draw people away (fixing bugs is less appealing to many mappers than setting the first foot steps on white map canvas). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do
In the city of Karviná, in your example, these two industrial buildings are much larger in reality than imported: http://osm.org/go/0LZc_9WgW?m= http://osm.org/go/0LZc_2625?m= But they can be corrected in JOSM easily. And it is not a big deal. An excellent stadium and a soccer pitch are not mapped here: http://osm.org/go/0LZeTNDQl-?m= , it is not like some shed missing. But in general, the map of Karviná is impressive. Sometimes municipal databases were created in 90s, with obsolete equipment, by employees who could not care less. But sometimes they are of good or medium quality. An import can be reviewed and corrected with satellite imagery or a survey. So both approaches are mutually-reinforcing. brgds Oleksiy On 24.10.2014 12:48, Paweł Paprota wrote: > ... did an awesome import of addresses > and buildings. Now compare it with the Polish side: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.8719/18.5786 > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
For me it is not unthinkable that once a company starts using OSM data for a commercial offering, they might start demanding to add that data. Of course they cannot demand anything from the community, but they can import the data, or some people might feel a need to import data, or... It's hard to explain in a foreign language and via mail. But for me, allowing (address) imports is already a form of obeying that marketing demand. Then OSM is no longer about people surveying and drawing from aerial images. regards m On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Florian Lohoff wrote: > > Hi, > > On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 01:32:19PM +0200, Marc Gemis wrote: > > So don't you expect "pressure" from companies using OSM for navigation > and > > geocoding to add more addresses ? Or do you expect them to use many > > different datasources ? > > I dont get this? "pressure"? On what basis? You get the OSM data on a > "take it or leave it" basis. > > If it doesnt suit your need you are free to spend an arbitrary amount of > money > to buy datasets which better suit your needs. > > OSM comes without any guarantees. > > Me personally i love addresses which might be the cause for >40K addresses > i have added to OSM in the past years. I am absolutely optimistic that > addresscompletion for example for Germany wont take more than 3 years. So > by 2017 we'll have all Adresses. Its just a matter of time and i am > very relaxed about this. When i started with OSM in 2007 i wouldnt have > thought that we'll have that amount of Data in 2014 just 7 years later. > > Flo > -- > Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iQIVAwUBVEoqZZDdQSDLCfIvAQoqfw//aT5y1P1GRJ69bJgLE1TnzDPKT3p9hJhU > xr6lUPh/ZP5KKPdLqwpjyTRvLaVTf1+YfHgUkg032NF7gj17ygH8wXRODTIU5JVa > 6zlkCMQC5XlQALTJtJ6vqjxfNzc/mxfJui7xfsoe6RP9OuRzHN2tZTJBx5nMBf4A > +NUVNpw2rq4J97oZKeBnrPDZ24gzOEZ5zUSlvSs5oQlA4lc5XHlqF2IZO0OyPsnt > rqMexE9t0wwsFFlZapw270EH3hIebohOHuHHfmdKA9EikjmHRHU9vrtxwPMGpxDV > L7fWfrupuFjkL6M4ZjIuIFCHXCWLvNSFalN5grf6ospD0JJY+tdSoo26fiuHgX88 > CQmxijgbFNOjrJjPmkMJM0GGJRE9LuA9qyQmA6j9laTXwV6Cx6e6HHxcPOsv/Tzz > sKC7nlez9e/RqtQjB7B8AG1Dj7Hk/XlYDZa/T9+oIxj8JaxehuvV9gUi9ETNLm9l > HLvVeJ5Aujj42Hu42S/6p6T25h/nBS4Fg1VdqfKgudfiW8eoBGy4iUVqfRsd6CE8 > xf8wQlTGlYg0FuwpvldgIRUFhc72c4S8XYehGGI6YS9XV09NqTrcVqQBnqm4d9RU > f8CMRkG4H8f7YRB7PUqTUAacvE/R7K8gFf4mnATC82QKcKZc4JT7usvhwRPiEdpm > 7P1eB1jdTZQ= > =cnQK > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
> > OSM is not a melting pot for the world's open data and while there is a > place for imports, every import will have to be carefully thought about > and evaluated. Streamlining that process is not necessarily in the best > interest of OpenStreetMap. > What do you mean? Clearly it *is* in the interest of OSM unless you have a very different definition of OSM. In some areas of the map you would not see most of the data (or any data, really) were it not for imports. Nearby my home area Czech community did an awesome import of addresses and buildings. Now compare it with the Polish side: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.8719/18.5786 What is your vision for this specific area if there was no building/address import? Do you expect that in 1 or 5 or 10 years you would have the same level of coverage by local mappers? Regarding streamlining and imports in general - to be honest I don't see much point in the current (quite complex and lenghty) process for analyzing and blessing the "good" imports. Instead of putting up more walls between data and OSM the project should heavily invest in official backend (as in - *built-in into osm.org*) tools for detecting and manging (e.g. reverting) changes to the database. At this point there are tons of 3rd-party scripts but that will not scale and will lead to more calls for "careful" imports and that will of course lead to more barriers for people interested in importing data. Paweł ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
Hi, On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 01:32:19PM +0200, Marc Gemis wrote: > So don't you expect "pressure" from companies using OSM for navigation and > geocoding to add more addresses ? Or do you expect them to use many > different datasources ? I dont get this? "pressure"? On what basis? You get the OSM data on a "take it or leave it" basis. If it doesnt suit your need you are free to spend an arbitrary amount of money to buy datasets which better suit your needs. OSM comes without any guarantees. Me personally i love addresses which might be the cause for >40K addresses i have added to OSM in the past years. I am absolutely optimistic that addresscompletion for example for Germany wont take more than 3 years. So by 2017 we'll have all Adresses. Its just a matter of time and i am very relaxed about this. When i started with OSM in 2007 i wouldnt have thought that we'll have that amount of Data in 2014 just 7 years later. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
I'd go along with this to some extent; I certainly don't think OSM should be "primarily" about addressing as Steve's email appears to indicate. It should be about whatever we as mappers want it to be. If addressing's your thing, then fine, do it, but if it isn't, that's fine also. I don't think we should be singling out one "mission" at all - other than to gather free geodata. Instead, we as mappers should be contributing whatever personally turns us on, so to speak. There are enough people with enough diverse interests that we end up with a map showing a wide range of things. There are still a good number of things besides addressing that are missing. Plenty of footpaths even here in the UK are still missing, for instance - to mention my own personal area of interest. By focusing on one aim you're going to potentially turn people off whose mapping interests lie elsewhere. Nick -Frederik Ramm wrote: - To: talk@openstreetmap.org From: Frederik Ramm Date: 23/10/2014 08:44AM Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map) Hi, On 10/23/2014 08:57 AM, Marc Gemis wrote: > Wouldn't it be great that we would have import tools that can be used by > many groups ? As far as addresses are concerned, there's "OpenAddresses" (the US version, not the older Swiss project) that collects openly licensed address data and to my knowledge they're also looking into how that data can then be combined with OSM for geocoding, without actually importing it in OSM. To my mind that's an excellent solution; you can dump address data into the pool and have it processed without interfering with the manually surveyed data that is in OSM. And users can be given the choice of using only the manually surveyed data, or only the government data, or a mixture of both. OSM is not a melting pot for the world's open data and while there is a place for imports, every import will have to be carefully thought about and evaluated. Streamlining that process is not necessarily in the best interest of OpenStreetMap. Frankly, I don't get all the brouhaha about addresses. Yes, geocoding is commercially interesting, but is it interesting for us as a project? Are the mappers in OSM doing what they do because they always wanted to have a house-level free geocoder? I very much doubt that. Technology wise, I find it almost insulting to reduce OSM to a geocoding database and measure OSM in how many addresses it has. There's so much more to the data we collect than merely placing a latitude and longitude against an address. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Frankly, I don't get all the brouhaha about addresses. Yes, geocoding is > commercially interesting, but is it interesting for us as a project? Are > So don't you expect "pressure" from companies using OSM for navigation and geocoding to add more addresses ? Or do you expect them to use many different datasources ? And when the mission statement is "The world's best addressable map", don't you expect that people will feel the need to add more addresses, faster, in a shorter period of time ? BTW, I'm just an ordinary mapper without real vision of what OSM has to be. I'm happy to continue mapping the way I do now: surveys, because this means exploring the world around me. I don't need imports. It's just that when OSMF wants more imports (do they ?) they should support that process with the necessary tools, doing so would to improve the quality of the imports IMHO. regards m ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses are a tiny fraction of what we do (was: The world’s best addressable map)
Hi, On 10/23/2014 08:57 AM, Marc Gemis wrote: > Wouldn't it be great that we would have import tools that can be used by > many groups ? As far as addresses are concerned, there's "OpenAddresses" (the US version, not the older Swiss project) that collects openly licensed address data and to my knowledge they're also looking into how that data can then be combined with OSM for geocoding, without actually importing it in OSM. To my mind that's an excellent solution; you can dump address data into the pool and have it processed without interfering with the manually surveyed data that is in OSM. And users can be given the choice of using only the manually surveyed data, or only the government data, or a mixture of both. OSM is not a melting pot for the world's open data and while there is a place for imports, every import will have to be carefully thought about and evaluated. Streamlining that process is not necessarily in the best interest of OpenStreetMap. Frankly, I don't get all the brouhaha about addresses. Yes, geocoding is commercially interesting, but is it interesting for us as a project? Are the mappers in OSM doing what they do because they always wanted to have a house-level free geocoder? I very much doubt that. Technology wise, I find it almost insulting to reduce OSM to a geocoding database and measure OSM in how many addresses it has. There's so much more to the data we collect than merely placing a latitude and longitude against an address. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
2011/3/1 Steve Doerr : > On 01/03/2011 11:06, Jochen Topf wrote: > >> There is a key "addr:full" (see description >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr) for this kind of thing. > > True, I didn't notice that. However, it's not quite the right thing as this > user has some address elements separated out, it's just (as I understand it) > the street name and house number are concatenated. So it's not really the > 'full' address. The addr:full tag is an additional optional for complicated cases. It is not intended and should not be used instead of the regular scheme. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
On 01/03/2011 11:06, Jochen Topf wrote: There is a key "addr:full" (see description http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr) for this kind of thing. True, I didn't notice that. However, it's not quite the right thing as this user has some address elements separated out, it's just (as I understand it) the street name and house number are concatenated. So it's not really the 'full' address. -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
On Tue, Mar 01, 2011 at 10:48:19AM +, Steve Doerr wrote: > On 01/03/2011 00:31, John-Michael Wiley wrote: > > > >Unfortunately the data is coming to me from a tool I do not > >control. I simply will be importing the data and allowing someone > >to associate the data provided with areas and nodes on the map. > >Most of the data will be for the US, but there is no guarantee > >that the addresses are correctly formatted which is why I am > >worried about doing something simple like assuming the house > >number is always first and is even always present. > > > >Seems to me like the best thing to do would be to skip the street > >address fields and simply use the ones which have a 1-1 mapping > >(city, country, state/province, postal code, phone). Leave the > >address for someone else. > > > > It might be better to load the information in a custom tag > (addr:line1 perhaps?) so that the information is there for other > mappers to reformat into addr:housenumber and addr:street at a later > date. There is a key "addr:full" (see description http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr) for this kind of thing. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
On 01/03/2011 00:31, John-Michael Wiley wrote: Unfortunately the data is coming to me from a tool I do not control. I simply will be importing the data and allowing someone to associate the data provided with areas and nodes on the map. Most of the data will be for the US, but there is no guarantee that the addresses are correctly formatted which is why I am worried about doing something simple like assuming the house number is always first and is even always present. Seems to me like the best thing to do would be to skip the street address fields and simply use the ones which have a 1-1 mapping (city, country, state/province, postal code, phone). Leave the address for someone else. It might be better to load the information in a custom tag (addr:line1 perhaps?) so that the information is there for other mappers to reformat into addr:housenumber and addr:street at a later date. -- Steve ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
I'm not certain what your background is so forgive me if I pitch this too simply. Below is the XML code for a Florist in Ottawa. Anything before http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Features gives a list of features that can be tagged. Note the line that says node id, this is basically what OSM uses to identify a node. The node is then qualified with things such as name, addr:postcode, phone etc. The node has a long and lat value which is where OSM knows where to place the node. Without the lat and lon the information is useless. Normally with a data source you know if its clean data or not. Yours sounds as if it might not be clean. So step one would be to get the lat and lon information attached to your data somehow. Once you have the node in the map then you can start to play. One thing you could do is add a note tag and dump the unformatted address information in there, I'd also add another tag saying fixme. Then you are dependent on some one taking the time to untangle the address information in something like JOSM. Another approach would be to filter the data so that only clean data is uploaded, often you can pick out different ty.es of data then handle them by program in different ways. If this is enamel bucket corporate stuff then its probably best if we talk this stuff through about what you want to do and what resources you have available. Brian Stagg is one contact I had with Microsoft before I retired and he can probably give you an idea of my background. My Skype address is johnwhelan3316. I can give you some guidance for free but I'm not in the market for being a consultant. Bear in mind that in general OSM prefers manual input for religious reasons, CommonMap might be a more suitable depository. I have a couple of VB programs that can be used to read and write OSM files in such a way that the modified data can be uploaded to OSM etc. Cheerio John On 28 February 2011 19:31, John-Michael Wiley wrote: > Unfortunately the data is coming to me from a tool I do not control. I > simply will be importing the data and allowing someone to associate the data > provided with areas and nodes on the map. Most of the data will be for the > US, but there is no guarantee that the addresses are correctly formatted > which is why I am worried about doing something simple like assuming the > house number is always first and is even always present. > > > > Seems to me like the best thing to do would be to skip the street address > fields and simply use the ones which have a 1-1 mapping (city, country, > state/province, postal code, phone). Leave the address for someone else. > > > > J.M. > > > > *From:* john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Monday, February 28, 2011 3:58 PM > *To:* John-Michael Wiley > *Cc:* talk@openstreetmap.org > *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses > > > > Tricky because of the accuracy. > > My money would be to add a two fields and put the lat and long coordinates > in there. I'd also use a database rather than Excel such as SQL server > there are better validation tools available. > > Then you really need manual verification you have the correct location. > I've dropped some items in by address in Ottawa, you can get close but you > need to verify because a shopping Mall may have a single street address so > many stores have the same address. > > If I think in terms of a database for people that feeds multiple needs eg > HR, phone etc. You sort of need a key such that you can key a building then > link it to other information such as name, opening hours, phone number etc. > > Since you have a Microsoft email address think in terms of OSM is an XML > file and then think Biztalk. You may want to email me a little off line on > this since this is more electronic map than OSM normally likes to think of > itself. > > Cheerio John > > On 28 February 2011 18:11, John-Michael Wiley > wrote: > > > > I am working on a project which will be importing items from excel and > putting them on the map. The items (shops, buildings,…) have got address but > they do not have the house numbers separated the street name, nor is it > always the case that the house number is included. It is not a simple > parsing task to parse these field for every locale, so I am wondering what I > should do with it. Should I put it into a new tag, should I use the full? > How can I add this information to the entity without making errors in the > street or house number fields? > > > > Thanks, > > J.M. Wiley > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
Unfortunately the data is coming to me from a tool I do not control. I simply will be importing the data and allowing someone to associate the data provided with areas and nodes on the map. Most of the data will be for the US, but there is no guarantee that the addresses are correctly formatted which is why I am worried about doing something simple like assuming the house number is always first and is even always present. Seems to me like the best thing to do would be to skip the street address fields and simply use the ones which have a 1-1 mapping (city, country, state/province, postal code, phone). Leave the address for someone else. J.M. From: john whelan [mailto:jwhelan0...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 3:58 PM To: John-Michael Wiley Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses Tricky because of the accuracy. My money would be to add a two fields and put the lat and long coordinates in there. I'd also use a database rather than Excel such as SQL server there are better validation tools available. Then you really need manual verification you have the correct location. I've dropped some items in by address in Ottawa, you can get close but you need to verify because a shopping Mall may have a single street address so many stores have the same address. If I think in terms of a database for people that feeds multiple needs eg HR, phone etc. You sort of need a key such that you can key a building then link it to other information such as name, opening hours, phone number etc. Since you have a Microsoft email address think in terms of OSM is an XML file and then think Biztalk. You may want to email me a little off line on this since this is more electronic map than OSM normally likes to think of itself. Cheerio John On 28 February 2011 18:11, John-Michael Wiley mailto:jmwi...@microsoft.com>> wrote: I am working on a project which will be importing items from excel and putting them on the map. The items (shops, buildings,...) have got address but they do not have the house numbers separated the street name, nor is it always the case that the house number is included. It is not a simple parsing task to parse these field for every locale, so I am wondering what I should do with it. Should I put it into a new tag, should I use the full? How can I add this information to the entity without making errors in the street or house number fields? Thanks, J.M. Wiley ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
Tricky because of the accuracy. My money would be to add a two fields and put the lat and long coordinates in there. I'd also use a database rather than Excel such as SQL server there are better validation tools available. Then you really need manual verification you have the correct location. I've dropped some items in by address in Ottawa, you can get close but you need to verify because a shopping Mall may have a single street address so many stores have the same address. If I think in terms of a database for people that feeds multiple needs eg HR, phone etc. You sort of need a key such that you can key a building then link it to other information such as name, opening hours, phone number etc. Since you have a Microsoft email address think in terms of OSM is an XML file and then think Biztalk. You may want to email me a little off line on this since this is more electronic map than OSM normally likes to think of itself. Cheerio John On 28 February 2011 18:11, John-Michael Wiley wrote: > > > I am working on a project which will be importing items from excel and > putting them on the map. The items (shops, buildings,…) have got address but > they do not have the house numbers separated the street name, nor is it > always the case that the house number is included. It is not a simple > parsing task to parse these field for every locale, so I am wondering what I > should do with it. Should I put it into a new tag, should I use the full? > How can I add this information to the entity without making errors in the > street or house number fields? > > > > Thanks, > > J.M. Wiley > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses
If the house number is missing, no problem, then leave away addr:housenumber. Are these American style addresses, i.e. 12345, Example Street, or European style: Eygenstraat 123. Could you post a few examples of the most common cases and a few border line cases. Maybe it's possible to parse them with a regular expression. Of course, first check whether your data is OK to import into OSM, license wise. Jo 2011/3/1 John-Michael Wiley : > > > I am working on a project which will be importing items from excel and > putting them on the map. The items (shops, buildings,…) have got address but > they do not have the house numbers separated the street name, nor is it > always the case that the house number is included. It is not a simple > parsing task to parse these field for every locale, so I am wondering what I > should do with it. Should I put it into a new tag, should I use the full? > How can I add this information to the entity without making errors in the > street or house number fields? > > > > Thanks, > > J.M. Wiley > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses and POI
On Sunday 07 June 2009 13:33:21 Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> Lambert Carsten wrote:
> > On Saturday 06 June 2009 15:35:41 Chris Hill wrote:
> > > Yes it is an issue - the few that I have looked at have terms and
> > > conditions that specifically restrict reuse without written permission
> > > - you should expect this on most organisations' websites.
> >
> > The address is not some kind of creative work, there is no database just
> > a website confirming that a known address is theirs. I really don't see
> > how copyright comes into this.
>
> Chris was expressly talking about contract ("terms and conditions"), not
> copyright.
He also mentioned copyright. I didn't quote that bit.
>
> Please use the legal-talk list for this kind of thing.
I agree, but the original question concerning copyright was asked here.
Jack's idea sounds like a really good idea and it would be a pity if he was
put off by Chris's over cautious (IMHO) answer.
Lambert Carsten
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Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses and POI
Lambert Carsten wrote:
> On Saturday 06 June 2009 15:35:41 Chris Hill wrote:
> > Yes it is an issue - the few that I have looked at have terms and
> > conditions that specifically restrict reuse without written permission
> > - you should expect this on most organisations' websites.
> The address is not some kind of creative work, there is no database just
> a website confirming that a known address is theirs. I really don't see
> how copyright comes into this.
Chris was expressly talking about contract ("terms and conditions"), not
copyright.
Please use the legal-talk list for this kind of thing.
cheers
Richard
--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses and POI
On Saturday 06 June 2009 15:35:41 Chris Hill wrote: > Jack Stringer wrote: > > If I gathered the address info from their website then that should not > > be an issue, should it? > > Yes it is an issue - the few that I have looked at have terms and > conditions that specifically restrict reuse without written permission - > you should expect this on most organisations' websites. The address is not some kind of creative work, there is no database just a website confirming that a known address is theirs. I really don't see how copyright comes into this. Lambert Carsten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses and POI
On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Jack Stringer wrote: >> People, companies, organisations can already add anything to the database >> right now. They could render a map (or pay someone to do it) with their >> locations on. > > Without having to sign-up with a OSM account and then workout the > various apps that you need to learn to be able to add the info. If so > what URL should I be pointing people towards. :-) we welcome anyone with data to import, who would like support, to contact the new data import working group (impo...@osmfoundation.org). i'm sure we can help them to either learn the tools, or find a member of the community willing to perform the import on their behalf. > The reason why I would like to add business locations means we have > another way to add postcodes and to give people reference points on a > map. If a company is willing to provide the info of where their > businesses are then for the moment I am willing to try and add them > into the OSM system (for the GB). as long as the locations aren't derived from the PAF, that sounds like a great plan. cheers, matt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses and POI
OK, so copyright on the electoral roll is an issue. I guess also because of the Data Protection Act I just can't get a list from a business of the addresses (minus names) of their customers. > People, companies, organisations can already add anything to the database > right now. They could render a map (or pay someone to do it) with their > locations on. Without having to sign-up with a OSM account and then workout the various apps that you need to learn to be able to add the info. If so what URL should I be pointing people towards. :-) The reason why I would like to add business locations means we have another way to add postcodes and to give people reference points on a map. If a company is willing to provide the info of where their businesses are then for the moment I am willing to try and add them into the OSM system (for the GB). Some businesses are likely to already be on the system but without all the information we could add e.g. they may have marked a restaurant but they may not of added that it is a McDonalds, and added the full address. I could try and make a list of firms that might be willing to provide location information for their buildings. I could then try contacting them and go from there. Jack Stringer ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses and POI
Jack Stringer wrote: > If I was to get a copy of the Electoral Roll, could I use that to get > a list of House Names, Street Names, and Postcodes and then use that > to create a tick list of houses. If we have a list of stuff that we > know should exist then we could use it to make sure the map has all > the data for the area. I have looked at the feed the postcode site and > though it provided > postcodes it does not help us work out what areas still need postcode > data adding to them etc. It would be nice to have a list of postcodes > that we have and a list we should have then do some math and we have a > list of the ones we need to find > This I think could also expand to other POI stuff. For example it > would only take a short wile to get all the addresses of Burger Kings > in the UK. If the BK is already mapped then we could add the address > to the POI so giving us another known postcode location. If it is not > mapped we could add a link to the town that we need to locate the BK. > It does not need to be just BK but it could be National Trust Sites, > English Heritage Sites. Someone in the head offices of these > firms/organisations is going to have a list of sites with full address > and they are likely to be happy for us to have the data because if > their hotels, restaurants are all on the the map of choice then they > will benefit exp. as its free. Google does have a facility for > companies to add their locations in bulk. > > If I gathered the address info from their website then that should not > be an issue, should it? > Yes it is an issue - the few that I have looked at have terms and conditions that specifically restrict reuse without written permission - you should expect this on most organisations' websites. > If I was to get some of this data would there be a copyright issues? > They also hold (and claim) copyright on the pages of their sites so written permission is required before any such data are used for OSM. > Is it worth me making a wiki page with some of the info? So people > could check of places that have been found and done. > > I guess a future website would be the ability for firms to add their > own info to the map. Using a form and a OSM window so they can put > their address in and add the location plus the usual info. But I don't > have the geek powers for that. > > People, companies, organisations can already add anything to the database right now. They could render a map (or pay someone to do it) with their locations on. Cheers, Chris ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Addresses / "Yellow pages" style informations
Chris Browet schrieb: > Is there an agreed tagging scheme for "Yellow page" style POI informations? > For example, for an hotel, I'd like to include a descriptive address, you could use the karlsruhe schema for adding the address data http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/House_numbers/Karlsruhe_Schema and would kill two birds with one stone (yellow page info and routing info on housenumber basis) addr:postcode addr:city addr:street addr:housenumber addr:housename and in special cases addr:full and addr:interpolation > phone number, well, afaik there is no proposal for that. candidates are: * phone * telephone * addr:phone_number * contact:phone > web site, ... afaik there is also no proposal for that. candidates are: * website * website:official * url * url:official * url:website * addr:website * web * weblink * homepage * info_url * info and don't use * link frank ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
